[INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer

Nagaraj Paturi nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
Wed Apr 27 18:01:55 UTC 2016 

 " Legends " may be downloaded from
https://archive.org/download/cu31924070625839/cu31924070625839.pdf
Saeed Bhutta's book  Urdu with English. It is here:
https://archive.org/download/TheVersifiedUrduTranslationsOfBabaFareedsPoeticalWorks/The_Legends_of_The_Punjab__Some_New_Insights.pdf


On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> Dear Nagaraj,
>
> First - its really gratifying to find here someone of matching research
> interests.
>
>
>
> I don't seem to be able to find Richard Temple's "Legends" on
> Archive.org.
>
> My advanced age?
>
> Could you, please, send me the link to the "Legends"?
>
> You may, perhaps and hopefully, want to read my already oldish (1981)
> paper on "Reward and Punishment in Indian Folk-tales",
>
> at:
>
> https://uw.academia.edu/AKarp
>
>
> Artur
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016-04-27 12:15 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:
>
>> If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read
>> my Polish rendering of the text,
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> here it is:
>>
>> 2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:
>>
>>> > a study by Saeed Bhutta
>>>
>>> English - or Urdu? Both?
>>>
>>> If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy?
>>>
>>> Artur
>>>
>>> 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?
>>>>
>>>> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post
>>>> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org
>>>>
>>>> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website.
>>>>
>>>> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book.
>>>>
>>>> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me
>>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as
>>>> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out
>>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using
>>>> them freely in their own performances.
>>>>
>>>> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the
>>>> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated
>>>> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the
>>>> classical and other forms by them are wrong.
>>>>
>>>> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
>>>> India's culture.
>>>>
>>>> ---  I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project  with
>>>> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of
>>>> such folk performers similar to those of  Scavengers Community being
>>>> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture.
>>>>
>>>> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
>>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.
>>>>
>>>> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the
>>>> narrative expressed through that literary form.
>>>>
>>>> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure.
>>>>
>>>> > may belong to them ( tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms)
>>>>
>>>> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any
>>>> thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of
>>>> tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms.
>>>>
>>>> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse.
>>>>
>>>> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is
>>>> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by
>>>> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the
>>>> tradition.
>>>>
>>>> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as
>>>> tantra matches with my point "
>>>>  to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
>>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Nagaraj
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> A legend.
>>>>>
>>>>> Definitely - more than that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using
>>>>> this term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just
>>>>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives
>>>>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its
>>>>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material).
>>>>>
>>>>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as
>>>>> Dhanvantari  it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval
>>>>> ocean the pot with amrita,  the Nectar of Immortality.
>>>>>
>>>>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The
>>>>> Virulent Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka)  poison - and so he asks his
>>>>> disciples to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great
>>>>> healing powers are not lost to humanity.
>>>>>
>>>>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
>>>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text
>>>>> belong to medicinal magic lore.
>>>>>
>>>>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me
>>>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as
>>>>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out
>>>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using
>>>>> them freely in their own performances.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
>>>>> India's culture.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of
>>>>> those C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I,
>>>>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"Śahr Safidon ki Kahani"
>>>>> is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title
>>>>> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("Córka Tysiąca Wężów").
>>>>>
>>>>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the
>>>>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative
>>>>> study, under the working title: "Śahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two
>>>>> Strategies for Survival".
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> from Warsaw,
>>>>>
>>>>> Artur
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk
>>>>>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and
>>>>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character
>>>>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such
>>>>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the
>>>>>> other genres of folk narratives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to
>>>>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is
>>>>>> comparative study.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of
>>>>>> cannibalism in cultures outside India. The following links provide some
>>>>>> such information:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html
>>>>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia
>>>>>> article.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism
>>>>>> in reality, the following links may be useful:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and
>>>>>> distinct specifics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
>>>>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -N
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit
>>>>>>> of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, ///
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmmm … this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned!
>>>>>>> For me, “inoculation” is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and
>>>>>>> literary. I’d like to learn more about it. Please educate me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm
>>>>>>> itself.///
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?'
>>>>>>> What does that mean? You should educate me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ++++++++++
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are quite a few references to “cannibalism” in Old Tamil
>>>>>>> (Sangam literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a
>>>>>>> later hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the
>>>>>>> later-developed kāpālika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika)
>>>>>>> tradition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to “acquiring” the other
>>>>>>> party’s (== the consumed ones’) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were
>>>>>>> not always a king’s enemies.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about
>>>>>>> a foreign culture/literature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>>>> rajam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don’t think
>>>>>>> it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather,
>>>>>>> the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead
>>>>>>> person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that
>>>>>>> the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the
>>>>>>> strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the
>>>>>>> purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has
>>>>>>> shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed
>>>>>>> you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war
>>>>>>> sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked
>>>>>>> (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant “food” was
>>>>>>> actually eaten. And in the Kaliṅkattupparaṇi, there are long descriptions
>>>>>>> of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you
>>>>>>> inherit his powers. In “The Story of the Grandmother” , a folk version of
>>>>>>> “Little Red Riding Hood” the girl eats his grandmother’s flesh and drinks
>>>>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism,
>>>>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix
>>>>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older
>>>>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified
>>>>>>> receiving magical power.”
>>>>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around
>>>>>>> the World
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Prof. Karp,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. “You Must Eat
>>>>>>>> My Flesh” I found a discussion here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and
>>>>>>>> drink his blood.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the
>>>>>>>> two expressions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -N
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>, indology <
>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a
>>>>>>>>> healer
>>>>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in
>>>>>>>>> the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare
>>>>>>>>> European saintly relics.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Grisly, indeed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dean
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>; indology <
>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a
>>>>>>>>> healer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Śahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s
>>>>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that
>>>>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best, also -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson <
>>>>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed"
>>>>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places
>>>>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard
>>>>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I
>>>>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen
>>>>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians
>>>>>>>>> and Nepalis.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dean Anderson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In "Śahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The
>>>>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,
>>>>>>>>> ​
>>>>>>>>> Princess Niwal Daî, As su
>>>>>>>>> ​n
>>>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>>>> ​b
>>>>>>>>> y t
>>>>>>>>> ​wo
>>>>>>>>>  s
>>>>>>>>> ​c
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> ​v
>>>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>> ​n
>>>>>>>>> gers
>>>>>>>>> ​f​
>>>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>> Bi
>>>>>>>>> ​b
>>>>>>>>> iyâl
>>>>>>>>> ​V
>>>>>>>>> illage
>>>>>>>>> ​n
>>>>>>>>> ear A
>>>>>>>>> ​mb
>>>>>>>>> âlâ),
>>>>>>>>> ​
>>>>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to
>>>>>>>>> gain his powers  Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Warsaw
>>>>>>>>> Poland
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal
>>>>>>>> Education,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )


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