[INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer

Wed Apr 27 10:15:41 UTC 2016

If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read my
Polish rendering of the text,

:)

here it is:

2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:

> > a study by Saeed Bhutta
>
> English - or Urdu? Both?
>
> If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy?
>
> Artur
>
> 2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>
>> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?
>>
>> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post
>> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org
>>
>> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website.
>>
>> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book.
>>
>> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me
>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as
>> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out
>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using
>> them freely in their own performances.
>>
>> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the
>> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated
>> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the
>> classical and other forms by them are wrong.
>>
>> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
>> India's culture.
>>
>> ---  I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project  with
>> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of
>> such folk performers similar to those of  Scavengers Community being
>> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture.
>>
>> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.
>>
>> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the narrative
>> expressed through that literary form.
>>
>> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure.
>>
>> > may belong to them ( tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms)
>>
>> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any
>> thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of
>> tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms.
>>
>> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse.
>>
>> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is
>> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by
>> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the
>> tradition.
>>
>> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra
>> matches with my point "
>>  to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
>> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
>> "
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Nagaraj
>>>
>>>
>>> >> A legend.
>>>
>>> Definitely - more than that.
>>>
>>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this
>>> term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just
>>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives
>>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its
>>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material).
>>>
>>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as
>>> Dhanvantari  it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval
>>> ocean the pot with amrita,  the Nectar of Immortality.
>>>
>>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent
>>> Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka)  poison - and so he asks his disciples
>>> to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers
>>> are not lost to humanity.
>>>
>>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
>>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.
>>>
>>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text
>>> belong to medicinal magic lore.
>>>
>>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me
>>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as
>>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out
>>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using
>>> them freely in their own performances.
>>>
>>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
>>> India's culture.
>>>
>>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those
>>> C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I,
>>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity.
>>>
>>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"Śahr Safidon ki Kahani"
>>> is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title
>>> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("Córka Tysiąca Wężów").
>>>
>>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the
>>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative
>>> study, under the working title: "Śahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two
>>> Strategies for Survival".
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> from Warsaw,
>>>
>>> Artur
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk
>>>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and
>>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character
>>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such
>>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the
>>>> other genres of folk narratives.
>>>>
>>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to
>>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is
>>>> comparative study.
>>>>
>>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism
>>>> in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such
>>>> information:
>>>>
>>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html
>>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html
>>>>
>>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article.
>>>>
>>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in
>>>> reality, the following links may be useful:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html
>>>>
>>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and
>>>> distinct specifics.
>>>>
>>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
>>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
>>>>
>>>> -N
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit
>>>>> of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, ///
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm … this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned!
>>>>> For me, “inoculation” is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and
>>>>> literary. I’d like to learn more about it. Please educate me.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself.///
>>>>>
>>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?'
>>>>> What does that mean? You should educate me.
>>>>>
>>>>> ++++++++++
>>>>>
>>>>> There are quite a few references to “cannibalism” in Old Tamil (Sangam
>>>>> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later
>>>>> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the
>>>>> later-developed kāpālika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika)
>>>>> tradition.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to “acquiring” the other
>>>>> party’s (== the consumed ones’) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were
>>>>> not always a king’s enemies.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a
>>>>> foreign culture/literature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>> rajam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don’t think
>>>>> it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather,
>>>>> the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead
>>>>> person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that
>>>>> the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the
>>>>> strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the
>>>>> purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has
>>>>> shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed
>>>>> you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war
>>>>> sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked
>>>>> (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant “food” was
>>>>> actually eaten. And in the Kaliṅkattupparaṇi, there are long descriptions
>>>>> of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> “The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you
>>>>> inherit his powers. In “The Story of the Grandmother” , a folk version of
>>>>> “Little Red Riding Hood” the girl eats his grandmother’s flesh and drinks
>>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism,
>>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix
>>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older
>>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified
>>>>> receiving magical power.”
>>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the
>>>>> World
>>>>>
>>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Prof. Karp,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. “You Must Eat
>>>>>> My Flesh” I found a discussion here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and
>>>>>> drink his blood.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two
>>>>>> expressions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -N
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
>>>>>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> To: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>, indology <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer
>>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in
>>>>>>> the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare
>>>>>>> European saintly relics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Grisly, indeed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dean
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>; indology <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a
>>>>>>> healer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Śahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s
>>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that
>>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best, also -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson <
>>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed"
>>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places
>>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard
>>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I
>>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen
>>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians
>>>>>>> and Nepalis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dean Anderson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In "Śahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The
>>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Princess Niwal Daî, As su
>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>> g
>>>>>>> b
>>>>>>> y t
>>>>>>> wo
>>>>>>>  s
>>>>>>> c
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>> e
>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>> gers
>>>>>>> f
>>>>>>> ro
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>> Bi
>>>>>>> b
>>>>>>> iyâl
>>>>>>> V
>>>>>>> illage
>>>>>>> n
>>>>>>> ear A
>>>>>>> mb
>>>>>>> âlâ),
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to
>>>>>>> gain his powers  Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Warsaw
>>>>>>> Poland
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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