[INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer

Wed Apr 27 10:08:40 UTC 2016

> a study by Saeed Bhutta

English - or Urdu? Both?

If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy?

Artur

2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> > Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?
>
> -- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post
> inspired me to download it from the Archive.org
>
> I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website.
>
> I called it a legend as per the title given to the book.
>
> >The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me
> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as
> >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out
> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using
> them freely in their own performances.
>
> ------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the
> romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated
> existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the
> classical and other forms by them are wrong.
>
> > I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
> India's culture.
>
> ---  I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project  with
> Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of
> such folk performers similar to those of  Scavengers Community being
> 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture.
>
> >That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.
>
> Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the narrative
> expressed through that literary form.
>
> Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure.
>
> > may belong to them ( tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms)
>
> -- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any
> thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of
> tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms.
>
> Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse.
>
> At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is
> ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by
> the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the
> tradition.
>
> In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra
> matches with my point "
>  to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
> "
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
>> Dear Nagaraj
>>
>>
>> >> A legend.
>>
>> Definitely - more than that.
>>
>> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?
>>
>>
>> Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this
>> term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just
>> curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives
>> present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its
>> turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material).
>>
>> Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as
>> Dhanvantari  it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval
>> ocean the pot with amrita,  the Nectar of Immortality.
>>
>> In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent
>> Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka)  poison - and so he asks his disciples
>> to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers
>> are not lost to humanity.
>>
>> That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
>> forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.
>>
>> Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text
>> belong to medicinal magic lore.
>>
>> The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me
>> imagine its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as
>> attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out
>> the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using
>> them freely in their own performances.
>>
>> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
>> India's culture.
>>
>> In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those
>> C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I,
>> personally, would guarantee their instant popularity.
>>
>> My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"Śahr Safidon ki Kahani" is
>> ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title
>> "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("Córka Tysiąca Wężów").
>>
>> In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the
>> Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative
>> study, under the working title: "Śahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two
>> Strategies for Survival".
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> from Warsaw,
>>
>> Artur
>>
>>
>> 2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk
>>> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and
>>> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character
>>> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such
>>> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the
>>> other genres of folk narratives.
>>>
>>> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to
>>> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is
>>> comparative study.
>>>
>>> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism
>>> in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such
>>> information:
>>>
>>> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html
>>> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html
>>>
>>> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article.
>>>
>>> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in
>>> reality, the following links may be useful:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist
>>>
>>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html
>>>
>>> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and
>>> distinct specifics.
>>>
>>> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
>>> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
>>>
>>> -N
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of
>>>> the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, ///
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm … this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned!
>>>> For me, “inoculation” is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and
>>>> literary. I’d like to learn more about it. Please educate me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself.///
>>>>
>>>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?'
>>>> What does that mean? You should educate me.
>>>>
>>>> ++++++++++
>>>>
>>>> There are quite a few references to “cannibalism” in Old Tamil (Sangam
>>>> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later
>>>> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the
>>>> later-developed kāpālika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika)
>>>> tradition.
>>>>
>>>> However, none of the Tamil references point to “acquiring” the other
>>>> party’s (== the consumed ones’) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were
>>>> not always a king’s enemies.
>>>>
>>>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a
>>>> foreign culture/literature.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don’t think it
>>>> applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the
>>>> purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by
>>>> creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead
>>>> spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of
>>>> someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of
>>>> consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being
>>>> defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail.
>>>> In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body
>>>> parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no
>>>> evidence that the resultant “food” was actually eaten. And in the
>>>> Kaliṅkattupparaṇi, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre
>>>> deities feasting on the war dead. George
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> “The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you
>>>> inherit his powers. In “The Story of the Grandmother” , a folk version of
>>>> “Little Red Riding Hood” the girl eats his grandmother’s flesh and drinks
>>>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism,
>>>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix
>>>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older
>>>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified
>>>> receiving magical power.”
>>>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the
>>>> World
>>>>
>>>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Prof. Karp,
>>>>>
>>>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. “You Must Eat
>>>>> My Flesh” I found a discussion here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh
>>>>>
>>>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words.
>>>>>
>>>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and
>>>>> drink his blood.
>>>>>
>>>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two
>>>>> expressions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> -N
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>, indology <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer
>>>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the
>>>>>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European
>>>>>> saintly relics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grisly, indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dean
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>; indology <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a
>>>>>> healer
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Śahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s
>>>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that
>>>>>> his healing powers would not be lost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best, also -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson <
>>>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed"
>>>>>> tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places
>>>>>> with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard
>>>>>> the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I
>>>>>> have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen
>>>>>> it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians
>>>>>> and Nepalis.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dean Anderson
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In "Śahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The
>>>>>> Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Princess Niwal Daî, As su
>>>>>> n
>>>>>> g
>>>>>> b
>>>>>> y t
>>>>>> wo
>>>>>>  s
>>>>>> c
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> v
>>>>>> e
>>>>>> n
>>>>>> gers
>>>>>> f
>>>>>> ro
>>>>>> m
>>>>>> Bi
>>>>>> b
>>>>>> iyâl
>>>>>> V
>>>>>> illage
>>>>>> n
>>>>>> ear A
>>>>>> mb
>>>>>> âlâ),
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to
>>>>>> gain his powers  Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warsaw
>>>>>> Poland
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

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