[INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer

Wed Apr 27 08:00:31 UTC 2016

Dear Nagaraj

>> A legend.

Definitely - more than that.

Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?

Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this
term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just
curious about the *channels of transmission* - many of the motives present
in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its turn,
freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material).

Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as
Dhanvantari  it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval
ocean the pot with amrita,  the Nectar of Immortality.

In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent
Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka)  poison - and so he asks his disciples
to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers
are not lost to humanity.

That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra
forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them.

Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text belong
to medicinal magic lore.

The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me imagine
its singers (*belonging to the scavengers' community*) as attentive
listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out the most
attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using them freely
in their own performances.

I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W
India's culture.

In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those
C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I,
personally, would guarantee their instant popularity.

My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"Śahr Safidon ki Kahani" is
ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title
"Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("Córka Tysiąca Wężów").

In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the
Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative
study, under the working title: "Śahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two
Strategies for Survival".

Best,

from Warsaw,

Artur

2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk
> narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and
> scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character
> without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such
> requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the
> other genres of folk narratives.
>
> One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to
> traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is
> comparative study.
>
> For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism in
> cultures outside India. The following links provide some such information:
>
> http://listverse.com/2012/12/05/top-10-truly-disturbing-fairy-tales/
>
>
> http://www.cracked.com/article_15962_the-gruesome-origins-5-popular-fairy-tales.html
> http://www.cultcase.com/2008/09/five-creepy-cannibalism-themes-in.html
>
> Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article.
>
> For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in
> reality, the following links may be useful:
>
>
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/
>
>
> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2141858/Tough-news-swallow-Europeans-saw-wrong-cannibalism-1900s-new-books-claim.html
>
> Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and
> distinct specifics.
>
> To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other
> components of each of the cultural complex may help.
>
> -N
>
> On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> ///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of
>> the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, ///
>>
>> Hmmm … this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! For
>> me, “inoculation” is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and
>> literary. I’d like to learn more about it. Please educate me.
>>
>>
>> ///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself.///
>>
>> This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' What
>> does that mean? You should educate me.
>>
>> ++++++++++
>>
>> There are quite a few references to “cannibalism” in Old Tamil (Sangam
>> literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later
>> hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the
>> later-developed kāpālika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika)
>> tradition.
>>
>> However, none of the Tamil references point to “acquiring” the other
>> party’s (== the consumed ones’) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were
>> not always a king’s enemies.
>>
>> I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a
>> foreign culture/literature.
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> rajam
>>
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart <glhart at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>
>> This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don’t think it
>> applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the
>> purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by
>> creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead
>> spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of
>> someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of
>> consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being
>> defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail.
>> In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body
>> parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no
>> evidence that the resultant “food” was actually eaten. And in the
>> Kaliṅkattupparaṇi, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre
>> deities feasting on the war dead. George
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> “The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you
>> inherit his powers. In “The Story of the Grandmother” , a folk version of
>> “Little Red Riding Hood” the girl eats his grandmother’s flesh and drinks
>> her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism,
>> but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix
>> which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older
>> often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified
>> receiving magical power.”
>> ----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the
>> World
>>
>> By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Prof. Karp,
>>>
>>> You must be aware of these words from the Bible. “You Must Eat My Flesh”
>>> I found a discussion here:
>>>
>>> http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-jesus-meant-when-he-said-you-must-eat-my-flesh
>>>
>>> There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words.
>>>
>>> What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink
>>> his blood.
>>>
>>> There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two
>>> expressions.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> -N
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
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>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>> Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>, indology <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC)
>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer
>>>> The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the
>>>> remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European
>>>> saintly relics.
>>>>
>>>> Grisly, indeed.
>>>>
>>>> Dean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>
>>>> *To:* Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004 at gmail.com>; indology <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info>
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer
>>>>
>>>> In Śahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s
>>>> Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that
>>>> his healing powers would not be lost.
>>>>
>>>> Best, also -
>>>>
>>>> Artur
>>>>
>>>> 2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson <
>>>> eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>:
>>>>
>>>> The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra.
>>>> I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with
>>>> famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the
>>>> bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have
>>>> read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it.
>>>> It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and
>>>> Nepalis.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dean Anderson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In "Śahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends
>>>> of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,
>>>> 
>>>> Princess Niwal Daî, As su
>>>> n
>>>> g
>>>> b
>>>> y t
>>>> wo
>>>>  s
>>>> c
>>>> a
>>>> v
>>>> e
>>>> n
>>>> gers
>>>> f
>>>> ro
>>>> m
>>>> Bi
>>>> b
>>>> iyâl
>>>> V
>>>> illage
>>>> n
>>>> ear A
>>>> mb
>>>> âlâ),
>>>> 
>>>> Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] -
>>>>
>>>> his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain
>>>> his powers  Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>
>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>
>>>> Warsaw
>>>> Poland
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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> committee)
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