[INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman

Sun Jul 13 23:26:35 UTC 2014

Thank you for your important insights and questions. As you suggest in another post, we cannot rule out Muslim or Nestorian influence on Madhva, though it is hard to rule it in. Here are a few points to consider:

1. In his Mahabharata-tatparya-nirnaya, Madhva makes clear that he wants to correct what he sees as a corrupted history. Thus in the first verse, Madhva bows to Narayana as the complete ocean of ‘qualities’ — paripurna-guna-arnavaya. We know that in the great Vedanta battles between Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhva and others, ‘guna’ is a key term, indicating that the absolute has precisely those qualities associated with itihasa and purana stories about Deities. Madhva uses the double emphasis of paripurna and arnava to nail down his view that God does have personal qualities, and is not a manifestation of an ultimate nirguna-brahma.

2. In the second verse of MTN, Madhva claims that Narayana keeps all sentient beings within his stomach (jaThare, and consorts with Laksmi ). These are both typical itihasa-purana claims. Again in this second verse Madhva insists that Narayana is the ‘ocean of qualities’. In other words, there is really not the slightest hint that we speaking about symbolic or non-historical events and entities.

3. As we know there is a well developed system in Sanskrit polemics of presenting and refuting the purva-paksa, opposing view.  I think we need to look for some sign in Madhva or other writers of a purva-paksa that can be reasonably traced to Western challenges to Hindu views. 

4. I explained earlier that Madhva speaks openly of major text corruptions in the Mahabharata. However his concern is clearly to establish what he considers to be the true history. Thus he spends much time arguing that Bhima, not Arjuna, is the ultimate hero of Mahabharata. He never suggests that the Pandavas are not real people who walked on earth. 
	Similarly, a later text, the 16th century Caitana-caritamrta of Krishnadasa Kaviraja, speaks of “illusory [mAyA-maya] stories” in itihasa-purana (Adi-lila 23.117-118. Thus acaryas are not shy about challenging the authenticity of specific verses or claims of venerated Hindu texts. However at least in Vaishnava circles, their purpose is consistently to restore what they see as a correct reading of the history. Thus some Bhagavatam commentaries deny the literal truth of the well known itihasa-purana claim that eclipses occur because Rahu chases or swallows the sun or moon,

	I mention all this to point out that text criticism certainly existed among Hindu teachers, however we can we find a modern type denial of the general historicity of itihasa emerging as a clearly discernible purva-paksa? One might say that Sankara challenges the ultimate truth of gods and their deeds by his metaphysical claim that that all such personal sa-rupa sa-guna forms of the Absolute are ultimately illusory. We know that Vaishnava Vedantists elaborately argue against this view. Yet Sankara glorifies the personal Krishna, son of Devaki. And as far as I know, Sankara does not claim, for example, that Krishna never came to this world, that he never spoke the Gita to Arjuna, or that he never aided the Devas etc etc.
	I am not aware of any important Vaishnava teachers arguing against a purva-paksa view that is clearly discernible as a modern type denial of the general historicity of itihasa. 

Thank you again for raising these interesting points.

Best,
Howard

On Jul 13, 2014, at 11:36 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:

> That is very interesting. But does this mean that the whole text of the Valmiki Ramayana or the Mahabharata should be treated as a more or less faithful representation of facts. Is that the main function of the epics? I do not question the idea that the epics constitute some kind of meaningful sacred narrative with some historically accurate details worked into it. The same is true of the Old Testament. But can one use the Mahabharata and the Ramayana to 'rewrite' the history of ancient India in such a way that the latter is 'purged' of western influences. I think this is the burden of the initial part of this discussion. My contribution to it was to point out that the epics stand in need of more refined hermeneutics, in order to avoid rewritings of ancient Indian history.
> Yours truly
> Victor van Bijlert
> 
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> From: Madhav Deshpande [mmdesh at umich.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:28 PM
> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
> Cc: Howard Resnick; Indology
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> 
> While there was no historical awareness in pre-modern India in the modern sense of history, many genealogies of medieval kings (including the Bhosales of Maharashtra) begin with the coronation of Yudhishthira, and so they are treating the epic and puranic lists as historical in their own understanding of history.
> 
> Madhav Deshpande
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> Do you know of any other source in the nineteenth and early twentieth century that Hindu propagandists could have used? Is there any early pre-modern or even pre-islamic discussion in Indian thought about the Mahabharata and Ramayana as accurate depictions of historical facts?
> 
> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
> Associate professor Religious Studies
> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
> Faculty of Theology, VU University
> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
> +31613184203
> From: Howard Resnick [hr at ivs.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 1:49 PM
> To: Bijlert, V.A. van
> Cc: Indology List
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Interview with the new ICHR Chairman
> 
> Can we really attribute to modern Christian influence the Hindu belief in Mahabharata and Ramayana as sacred history, apart from the many other meanings of the texts?
> 
> 
> On Jul 13, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Bijlert, V.A. van <v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl> wrote:
> 
>> It seems to me there is a task for hermeneutics rather than pure philological indology. We are dealing with rather simplistic views of what the Mahabharata and Ramayana (and other puranas as well?) represent. The idea that these texts are historical seems to derive from the rather fundamentalist evangelical christian view of the Bible as containing undiluted historical truth. Hindus since the nineteenth century were confronted with this view propounded by missionaries and as a reaction claimed that their own Sanskrit texts were also historical. In christian hermeneutics and Biblical philology as indeed in theology such simplistic historical views have long been discarded. But apparently not so among some Hindus with regard to epics and the puranas.
>> Victor van Bijlert
>>  
>> Dr. Victor A. van Bijlert
>> Associate professor Religious Studies
>> Department of Philosophy of Religion and Comparative Study of Religions
>> Faculty of Theology, VU University
>> De Boelelaan 1105, NL-1081 HV Amsterdam, The Netherlands
>> v.a.van.bijlert at vu.nl
>> +31613184203
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> -- 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
> Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
> 202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
> The University of Michigan
> Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA
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