Re: [INDOLOGY] Patañjali's syntax

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

te'surāḥ. te
surā helayo helaya iti kurvantaḥ parābabhūvuḥ. tasmād brāhmaṇena na mlecchitavai
nāpabhāṣitavai. mleccho ha vā eṣa yad apaśabdaḥ.
“(The sentence
beginning with) ‘Those demons’. 
Those demons
while making (the sounds) ‘he ‘layo he ‘layaḥ’ suffered
defeat. So a Brahmin should not speak like a barbarian. For a corrupt word is
indeed a barbarian.”
After Dr  K.C.Chatterji. Patañjali’s Mahabhāṣya
Paspaśāhnika
Calcutta 1953
Best
DB
 



On Wednesday, 30 October 2013 8:04 PM, Adriano Aprigliano <aprigliano at usp.br> wrote:
 
Right, Hans,

This usage is also referred to by MW (ततो देवा एतं वज्रं ददृशुर् यद् अपः , " the gods then saw this thunderbolt, to wit , the water " S3Br.)

It seems to be the best possibility so far, but hard to interpret, always confusing this use of yad...

Thanks to all


Prof. Dr. Adriano Aprigliano
Área de Língua e Literatura Latina
 
Faculdade de Filosofia, Letras e Ciências Humanas
Universidade de São Paulo
São Paulo, Brasil








Em 30/10/2013, às 12:21, Hock, Hans Henrich escreveu:

Dear All,

A clue as to how to interpret yad apazabdaH may lie in the morphology of apabhASitavai, which is a Vedic formation; not also the Vedic particles ha vai. This may make it possible to interpret the passage mleccho ha vai eSo yad apazabdaH as an instance of what I have termed the "invariable yad-construction" (see the grammatical notes in my UpaniSadic Reader); so the translation would be something like this 'That indeed is barbarous [taking mleccha as adjective], namely/viz. incorrect speech.'

All the best,

Hans Henrich Hock



On 30 Oct 2013, at 09:06, Adriano Aprigliano wrote:

Thanks to Dominik W. and Lars F. for the propositions.  
>
>
>I think yad is the main problem in fact... and still. It is solved by Lars as 'because': the syntax becomes smooth in terms of order, but still taking apazabdah as bahuvriihi sounds to me quite strange. 
>
>
>As for Naageza's explanation brought up by Dominik, it leaves yad out, as far as I could gather from the translation. 
>
>
>Understanding mleccha as an adjective of apazabda, albeit uncommon, as noted by Naageza himself, seems rather ok. But next the text goes: mlecchaah maa bhumety adhyeyam vyaakaranam. 
>
>
>So it seems to me that maybe the commentators were a bit at lost with that construction themselves, don't you think?
>
>
Best
>
>
>(first response went just to D. Wujastyk, sorry)
>
>
>Prof. Dr. Adriano Aprigliano
>Área de Língua e Literatura Latina
> 
>Faculdade de Filosofia, Letras e Ciências Humanas
>Universidade de São Paulo
>São Paulo, Brasil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Em 30/10/2013, às 11:40, Dominik Wujastyk escreveu:
>
>This exact point was discussed in the Pradīpa and clarified further in the Uddyota.   One might think, Nāgeśa said, that the word mleccha would usually refer to a person or a place; how could it refer to a bad word?  But in this case it is a term of criticism.  "A bad word (apaśabda) is really despicable (mleccha)."  
>>
>>
>>("Bad word" is of course probably not one's final choice for translating apaśabda.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dr Dominik Wujastyk
>>Department of South Asia, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies,
>>University of Vienna,
>>Spitalgasse 2-4, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1
>>1090 Vienna, Austria
>>and 
>>Adjunct Professor, 
>>Division of Health and Humanities,
>>St. John's Research Institute, Bangalore, India.
>>Project | home page | HSSA | PGP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 30 October 2013 13:38, Adriano Aprigliano <aprigliano at usp.br> wrote:
>>
>>Dear colleagues, 
>>>
>>>
>>>I have been having doubts on how to translate this MBhāṣ sentence (Kielhorn, p.2, line 8):
>>>
>>>
>>>te'surāḥ. te surā helayo helaya iti kurvantaḥ parābabhūvuḥ. tasmād brāhmaṇena na mlecchitavai nāpabhāṣitavai. mleccho ha vā eṣa yad apaśabdaḥ.
>>>
>>>
>>>The problem is on the last sentence, what to make of that yad apaśabdaḥ. I start with ' for this one/he is indeed a mleccha...". 
>>>
>>>
>>>Any suggestions?
>>>
>>>
>>>best wishes
>>>
>>>
>>>Prof. Dr. Adriano Aprigliano
>>>Área de Língua e Literatura Latina
>>> 
>>>Faculdade de Filosofia, Letras e Ciências Humanas
>>>Universidade de São Paulo
>>>São Paulo, Brasil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>http://listinfo.indology.info
>>>
>>
>
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