Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like

Ganesan ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG
Fri Mar 11 09:09:28 UTC 2011

I think they are different. The naaraaya.nabali as far as I know is connected with funeral rites and mostly performed by vai.s.nava-s other than Brahmins.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dipak Bhattacharya 
  To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk ; Ganesan 
  Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 12:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like

        Just a curiosity. Is this vi.s.nubali the same as the wellknown nArAya.navali?

        --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Ganesan <ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG> wrote:

          From: Ganesan <ganesan at IFPINDIA.ORG>
          Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like
          To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
          Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 6:45 AM

          Regarding Vai.s.nava "suudra-s in the Vaikhanasa system one may not find anything. For, the vaishnavism propounded in the Vaikhanasa Agama-s is exclusively meant for Brahmains. Most probably the reason being, the Vaikhaanasa Agama is claimed to be based on the Aukheya "saakhaa (now extinct ?) of the Yajurveda. Of course there exists a Vaikhanasa mantrapra"sna just as there is the aapastambamantrapra"sna which is fully used by them for all their domestic rites.
          Further, a vaikhanasa is born by the sacrament called vi.s.nubali performed during pregnancy and not 'made' by diik.saa as in the case of Paa~ncaraatra system. These are the fundamental differences between these two branches of Vaishnava religion. Therefore there cannot be theoretically any vai.s.navaanta"suudra or vai.s.nva"suudra in the vaikhaanasa.
          With the best wishes,

          Senior Researcher in Saivasiddhanta
          French Institute of Pondicherry
          UMIFRE 21 CNRS-MAEE
          11, St. Louis Street
          P.B. 33  PONDICHERRY-605001
          Tel: +91 - 413 - 233 4168 ext. 123
          E mail: ganesan at ifpindia.org
          Web: www.ifpindia.org
          ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" <dbhattacharya200498 at YAHOO.COM>
          To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
          Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:20 AM
          Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fw: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like

          --- On Fri, 11/3/11, Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like
          To: "TimLubin" <lubint at WLU.EDU>
          Date: Friday, 11 March, 2011, 5:34 AM

          The work I meant is a Vaikhānasa text of encyclopaedic
          nature dealing, inter alia, on settlements and temple construction, published
          as Kāśyapajñānakāṇḍaḥ(Kāśyapasaṃhitā), ed PārthasārathiBhaṭṭācārya
          Tirupati1948. I rummaged through at random and unsuccessfully for caste



          --- On Wed, 9/3/11, Lubin, Tim <lubint at WLU.EDU> wrote:

          From: Lubin, Tim <lubint at WLU.EDU>
          Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like
          To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
          Date: Wednesday, 9 March, 2011, 5:47 PM

          Thank you Dipak. Although I do not think there is any connection between the Kasyapottarasa?hita in hand and the medical text called Kasyapasa?hita (if that’s what you refer to), I have checked the latter, and found nothing. Elsewhere in the Kasyapottara itself, so far as I have read, no similar list appear, and a word search of the corpus of Unicode Skt texts on my computer shows no occurrences of, e.g., of strings beginning saivantar, vai??avantar, sudrantar, and the like. So it remains rather anomalous.

          As I said, I can simply guess
          that Vai??avantarasudra would mean something like Vai??avasudra manqué, with -antara = ‘other’ in the sense of ‘lesser’, but I still wonder if there is any precedent or parallels for such an expression.


          From: Dipak Bhattacharya [mailto:dbhattacharya200498 at yahoo.com]
          Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:24 AM
          To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk; Lubin, Tim
          Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like

          The word -antara meaning 'others' in a compound usually refers to variants, extras etc. One has to check if a supplementary list is concerned where it will be appropriate to term the new entries as such. Will you check if any list of ;Suudras of the Vai.s.nava-, ;Saiva- etc. varieties has already been
          mentioned? I shall check the Kaa;syapa-Sa.mhitaa itself. Perhaps, you too can yourself do that. But i will.

          --- On Mon, 7/3/11, Lubin, Tim <lubint at WLU..EDU> wrote:

          From: Lubin, Tim <lubint at WLU.EDU>
          Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vai.s.navaantara"suudraa.h and the like
          To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
          Date: Monday, 7 March, 2011, 3:21 PM
          Dear all,

          Reading the (unpublished) Kaa"syapottarasa.mhitaa (adhyaaya 18), I have been puzzling over the precise implications of some categories of "Suudra described therein, categories including the suffix -antara, as follows (in descending rank order):
          Vai.s.nava vs. Vai.s.navaantara,
          "Saiva vs.
          Saamaanya vs. Saamaanyaantara,
          Sa.mkara vs. Sa.mkaraantara.

          An initial round of searches has not yielded any parallels that would suggest what distinguishes, e.g.., a 'Vai.s.navaantara"suudra' from a 'Vai.s.nava"suudra'. The text itself is not really explicit, except to suggest that the Vai.s.navaantara is a lower status. In this case, the lower status may be implicitly attributable to association with "Saivas (despite having received the sa.mskaaras taught in the Puraa.nas and Paa~ncaraatra "saastras, noted in the preceding stanza): "saivaagamoktasa.mskaarisambandha.m samavaapya ca | svaya.m ced vai.s.navas ti.s.thed vai.s.navaantara iirita.h ||

          Have others encountered similar status-titles in other works? Does 'X-antara' simply imply 'a lesser' or 'not quite an' X?

          Tim Lubin


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