Much simpler than that (Re: expectation (Re: Anyone heard of a flower called "aniccam?"))
rajam
rajam at EARTHLINK.NET
Wed Mar 24 20:57:23 UTC 2010
Dear JLC,
Thanks for the bright answers!
My query was much much simpler. I was just wondering why anyone would
look for answers for some deep-delving academic questions in a non-
academic naive presentation like that of the young engineer's slide
presentation of the flowers. That's all.
--vsr
On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:33 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:
> அன்பின் V.S. Rajam,
>
> I believe there are (at least) two distinct ways of answering your
> "naive / un-harmful" question.
>
>
> *(1)* EITHER we consider that linguistic fieldwork is needed
> (and that it MUST/CAN be done ONLY with native speakers, who tap on
> their native knowledge
> [[which means that people will not pretend to really have known
> (INTUITIVELY and previously)
> the answer to a question about something that they did not know
> about for sure
> before making a GOOGLE search on Google Images]])
>
>
> *(2)* OR we remember that the LIVERPOOL INDOLOGY list
> (on which this message has appeared recently)
> is a mailing list frequented by the users of many INDIAN languages
> (including sanskrit).
>
> That being the case,
> it makes sense to compare:
>
> *a.* the data found on the PANDANUS web site
> SEE: <http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/>
> (recently quoted by Dominic GOODALL),
> which contains:
>
> 784 Malayalam plant names
>
> 675 Tamil plant names
>
> 670 Hindi plant names
>
> 650 Latin botanical names
>
> 616 Sanskrit plant names
>
> 543 English designations
>
> 146 names in Bengali
>
> 68 names in Prakrit
>
> [Welcome additions would be: Kannada, Telugu, etc.]
>
> *b* data compiled by the native users of many Indian languages
> (including Tamil)
>
> *********************************
>
> As a Post-Scriptum,
> I would like to add that this exchange on the Liverpool Indology
> mailing list
> is, to some extent, a post-scriptum
> to an exchange which earlier took place on another mailing list
> for which I am the owner [[DISCLAIMER STATEMENT]], on a French CNRS
> server.
>
> A more complete set of textual data
> will be found at the following URL-s
> <https://listes.services.cnrs.fr/wws/arc/ctamil/2010-03/msg00054.html>
> (the ORIGINAL post by Palaniappan Vairam Sarathy, which triggered
> everything)
>
> A recent post,
> in which I am trying to make a synthesis of the NON-SPECULATIVE
> evidence
> (including the பிங்கலம் / Piṅkalam [a moderately
> old KOŚA] evidence,
> which my friend George Hart seems to have been using,
> when mentioning alternate names for அனிச்சம்),
> is available at:
> <https://listes.services.cnrs.fr/wws/arc/ctamil/2010-03/msg00095.html>
>
> Best wishes to all
>
> You are all of course welcome to join CTAMIL
> <https://listes.services.cnrs.fr/wws/info/ctamil>,
> on the CNRS server,
> if you are interested in such topics
>
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard
>
>
>
> Le 3/23/2010 9:27 PM, rajam a écrit :
>> The work by the young engineer at http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/
>> 2010/03/15/99tamilflowers_slideshow/
>> is excellent, informative, and educative. In fact, my initial
>> query originated there.
>>
>> /Unfortunately, it does not give names in Sanskrit and other
>> Indian languages,/
>>
>> Just a naive / un-harmful question: But why do we have such
>> expectation -- for "names in Sanskrit" to be available?
>>
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:02 AM, George Hart wrote:
>>
>>> Aruppalam might be from aruphala. Aru, according to Apte, is
>>> "rakta khadira," but unfortunately he doesn't define it. Kittel
>>> says it is a plant and says it is "meṇasige," but that is not
>>> defined either. Khadira by itself is acacia catechu, and rakta
>>> khadira might be an acacia tree with red flowers. Acacia arabica
>>> (which is native to India)? (see http://www.exogarden.nl/
>>> palmzaden/images/acacia-arabica.jpg). The leaves of this are
>>> small, gentle and fernlike and could possibly be said to retreat
>>> when touched. In any case, this is all speculation -- it points
>>> up how difficult it can be to identify botanical names in old
>>> Indian texts.
>>>
>>> For a list (with pictures and recitation) of the flowers in the
>>> Kuṟiñcippāṭṭu (63-95), see
>>>
>>> http://karkanirka.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/99tamilflowers_slideshow/
>>>
>>> This is a wonderful website and gives some very useful
>>> information. Unfortunately, it does not give names in Sanskrit
>>> and other Indian languages, but it does give Latin names and so
>>> can be used if you know the botanical name of a flower. George Hart
>>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:54 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote:
>>>
>>>> aruṣpānam is a healing herbal in the Atharvaveda, probably a
>>>> mountain plant likely to be growing in the Lesser Himalayas. But
>>>> the Orissa manuscripts read arusyānam.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 23/3/10, George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>
>>>> Subject: Re: Anyone heard of a flower called "aniccam?"
>>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>>> Date: Tuesday, 23 March, 2010, 8:50 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Apparently another name of the aṉiccam is aruppalam, which
>>>> looks as if it could be have a Prakrit or Sanskrit origin
>>>> (arpala, rupala?) but I can't find anything in those languages.
>>>> G. Hart
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Dipak Bhattacharya wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is it still common? The lajjaavatii or laajawantii was very
>>>>> common along rail tracks even in the seventies. But since its
>>>>> arrival, allegedly from Canada in 1973, the parthenium has
>>>>> spread like wild fire along the ancient EIR route and the
>>>>> parallel Grand Trunk Road destroying the common lajjaavatii.
>>>>> Best
>>>>> DB
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Mon, 22/3/10, venetia ansell <venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: venetia ansell <venetia.ansell at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Anyone heard of a flower called "aniccam?"
>>>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>>>> Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 11:40 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mimosa pudica is certainly very common in Karnataka - it's
>>>>> called chhui mui
>>>>> in Hindi, mutthidaremuni in Kannada I think, and lajjaa (as in
>>>>> bashfulness)
>>>>> in Sanskrit.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Dipak Bhattacharya <
>>>>> dbhattacharya2004 at yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mimosa pudica is Thottalvadi in Tamil not aniccam.
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>> DB
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Mon, 22/3/10, Dominic Goodall
>>>>>> <dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Dominic Goodall <dominic.goodall at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Anyone heard of a flower called "aniccam?"
>>>>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>>>>> Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 9:01 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This reminds me that in the hills in the South today one finds
>>>>>> plenty of
>>>>>> Mimosa pudica, whose leaves temporarily fold up the second
>>>>>> that you touch
>>>>>> them, or indeed blow on them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I am not sure how long these plants have been growing
>>>>>> there, for the
>>>>>> Pandanus website (http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/),
>>>>>> quoting Dymock, Warden, Hooper: Pharmacographia Indica, vol.
>>>>>> I, pp.
>>>>>> 538-539, calls Mimosa pudica a "native of Brazil long
>>>>>> naturalized in India".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dominic Goodall
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 21 Mar 2010, at 21:39, Michael Witzel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The whole discussion (here and in Tamil) reminded me of the
>>>>>>> little
>>>>>> yellow flower, called 'noli me tangere' "don't touch me!" in
>>>>>> Latin.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For some details see: <http://www.aboutflowers.org/
>>>>>>> giantbalsamim_xal.htm>
>>>>>> (also in N. India)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Leaves of certain trees also do that: they fold on touch).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> MW
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2010, at 11:54 AM, rajam wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Whitney,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The poems don't indicate that the flower perishes, though.
>>>>>>>> The emphasis
>>>>>> is on its delicateness, softness, and gentleness. So I wonder
>>>>>> whether the
>>>>>> flower's "reflex" action ("to wilt" when someone smells it)
>>>>>> fascinated the
>>>>>> poet. Maybe one could find a similar flower somewhere -- I hope!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>>>>> VSR
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 21, 2010, at 1:18 AM, Whitney Cox wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Rajam,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In line with your observation that the flower is supposedly
>>>>>>>>> "super
>>>>>>>>> sensitive", it seems possible to me that the derivation of
>>>>>>>>> the name
>>>>>>>>> might be from a-nitya ("impermanent," "perishable"), rather
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> an+icchā (I see that the MTL, p. 191 thinks the same
>>>>>>>>> thing). However,
>>>>>>>>> I don't know of any flower called anitya in Sanskrit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Whitney
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 21 March 2010 06:00, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone on this list come across a plant/flower type named
>>>>>> "aniccha" in
>>>>>>>>>> any non-Tamil literature?
>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone seen it (in person or in a picture)?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Aniccam" is listed just as a flower in early Tamil
>>>>>>>>>> poetry. Later on,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> focus is on the flower's super sensitivity--about how it
>>>>>>>>>> would wilt at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> contact of human breath, how it would harm a woman [with a
>>>>>>>>>> slender
>>>>>> waist] if
>>>>>>>>>> she wears the flower without removing its stem, ... and so
>>>>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is a thought that the term "anicca" is derived thus:
>>>>>>>>>> a + iccha
>>>>>> (a +
>>>>>>>>>> icchaa - Without Desire/Wish).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What is your thought? Are there similar flowers extolled
>>>>>>>>>> in non-Tamil
>>>>>> poetry
>>>>>>>>>> for such super sensitivity?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>>>>>>> V.S. Rajam
>>>>>>>>>> < (www.letsgrammar.org)>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dr. Whitney Cox
>>>>>>>>> Department of the Languages and Cultures of South Asia,
>>>>>>>>> School of Oriental and African Studies
>>>>>>>>> Thornhaugh Street, Russell Square
>>>>>>>>> London WC1H 0XG
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ============
>>>>>>> Michael Witzel
>>>>>>> witzel at fas.harvard.edu
>>>>>>> <www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
>>>>>>> 1 Bow Street,
>>>>>>> Cambridge MA 02138, USA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295, 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571;
>>>>>>> my direct line: 617- 496 2990
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your
>>>>>> Yahoo! Homepage.
>>>>>> http://in.yahoo.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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