Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ

[victor davella]

Note the Telugu wikipedia page on కాశీ (వారాణసి).  Although I can't make out
everything it says, there is a discussion about the alternate name వారణాసి
from "వరుణ", "ఆస్సి."   Brown only gives వారణాసి as కాశీ పట్టణము and
the analysis *vāraṇ-āsi*.  He says nothing of the spelling వారాణసి which may
have been introduced into Telugu recently and in imitation of the northern
name.  In this case there doesn't seem to be a mispronunciation but the
correct pronunciation of a different name which is perhaps also the case for
the English pronunciation

Victor D'Avella

PhD Candidate
University of Chicago
SALC

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Gary Tubb <tubb at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> This is exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about when I brought up
> the matter of the pronunciation of Varanasi.  The data from Kannada is very
> interesting, as is the contrast with Malayalam..
>
> Velcheru Narayana Rao informs me that "in Telugu speech it is vaaranaasi.
>  (The third syllable long, and also the last vowel short.)"
>
> So it does appear that, unlike the words "Mahabharata" and "Ramayana," for
> "Varanasi" there are strong, though regional, traditions supporting a second
> pronunciation.
>
> --Gary.
>
>
> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair
> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
> The University of Chicago
>
>
>
>
> Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:
>
>> Dear Herman,
>> Dear Professor Bhattacharya,
>>
>> I wonder whether it is a precise characterization
>> (from a descriptive linguistics point of view)
>> to use the words "mispronounced" and "misspelled".
>>
>> In my edition of Kittel,
>> supposed to be an AES reprint of the 1894 edition,
>> both spellings are mentionned on the page 1392 :
>>
>> "ವಾರಣಾಸಿ" [vāraṇāsi] is explained as being the same as "ವಾರಾಣಸಿ"
>> [vārāṇasi]
>> but some textual reference is given.
>>
>> "ವಾರಾಣಸಿ" [vārāṇasi] appears slightly lower on the page
>> and has a longer entry, also containing textual references.
>>
>> The strategy seen in Kittel seems to be the contrary
>> of the strategy seen in the Madras Tamil Lexicon,
>> where வாரணாசி [vāraṇāci] is the main entry.
>> (and there is a secondary entry வாரணசி [vāranaci]
>>
>> Additionally,
>> unless I am mistaken
>> (which can very well happen, because I know almost nothing about Kannada
>> and rely on electronic transcoding tools),
>> A google search for those two forms shows that:
>>
>> "ವಾರಣಾಸಿ" [vāraṇāsi] occurs approximately  677 000 times on the internet
>>
>> "ವಾರಾಣಸಿ" [vārāṇasi] occurs approximately  132 000 times on the internet
>>
>> The "incorrect" form seems to be 5 times more frequent than the "correct"
>> form.
>>
>> I am convinced that this means something,
>> at least concerning the speakers of some Modern Indian languages
>> because 677 000 "incorrect" forms cannot simply be ignored
>> (or wiped away from the realm of "linguistic facts").
>>
>> They have a massive presence in the linguistic abilities of their users
>> (I am alluding here to what I understand to be the topic of Morris Halle's
>> 1985 article
>> "Speculations about the Representation of Words in Memory")
>>
>> Malayalam seems to have quite a different "habitus":
>>
>> We find, with Google, as of today (15th february 2010):
>>
>> 3 690 occurrences of വാരണാസി [vāraṇāsi]
>>
>> 646 000 occurrences of വാരാണസി [vārāṇasi]
>>
>> This is quite different from the figures for Kannada!!
>>
>> What about other Indian modern languages?
>>
>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard
>>
>> (CNRS, Université Paris-Diderot,
>> UMR7597: "Laboratoire d'Histoire des Théories Linguistiques")
>>
>>
>> Le 2/15/2010 3:31 PM, Herman Tull a écrit :
>>
>>> But, at least we can say it is a good thing that these words
>>> (mispronounced and misspelled as they are) have come into the general
>>> lexicon.
>>>
>>> By the way, I must admit to having more than once ordered a Paanini when
>>> I should have been asking for a Paniini; confusing a grammarian with a
>>> grilled turkey sandwich.  I guess this goes both ways!   (In fact, as a a
>>> result of my misadventures in pronunciation, I am now utterly terrified by
>>> having to order one of these sandwiches.)  But, then, I also once asked for
>>> "bed bugs" rather than "curds" in my terribly broken Telegu.
>>>
>>> Herman Tull
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Dipak Bhattacharya" <dbhattacharya2004 at YAHOO.CO.IN>
>>> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 7:56 AM
>>> To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
>>> Subject: Re: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ
>>>
>>>  15 02 10
>>>> Kittel’s transliteration gives vāranāsi but the Kannaḍ word is written
>>>> ವಾರಾಣಸಿ that is vārāṇasi. Could the given transliteration be a printing
>>>> error?
>>>> To the wrong pronunciations add Himalaya for Himālaya and Panini for
>>>> Pāṇini. But It is no use counting them, they are a legion.
>>>> Best for all
>>>> DB
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 15/2/10, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
>>>> jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at UNIV-PARIS-DIDEROT.FR>
>>>> Subject: Southern pronunciations ? (Re: INDOLOGY FAQ
>>>> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>>>> Date: Monday, 15 February, 2010, 4:59 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As a post-scriptum to my first remark,
>>>> I want to addd that I have just had a look at Kittel's Kannada-English
>>>> dictionary
>>>>
>>>> it contains on page 1392
>>>> an entry "vâraṇâsi"
>>>> and the authority given is "Bp. 54, 65; 58, 34; My."
>>>>
>>>> The list abbreviations gives
>>>>
>>>> Bp. = "Basava purāṇa. Bibliotheca Carnâtaka, Mangalore, 1850"
>>>>
>>>> If as early as the 6th century, which is a date often given for the
>>>> Tamil /Maṇimēkalai /, we find the spelling vāraṇāci,
>>>> and if that spelling has remained the norm in Tamil
>>>> [See: <
>>>> http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%B5%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%B0%E0%AE%A3%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%9A%E0%AE%BF>]
>>>>
>>>> there must be a reason.
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to have additional data for other indian
>>>> languages
>>>>
>>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS, Paris)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 2/15/2010 10:43 AM, Jean-Luc Chevillard a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> I would be interested in having comments
>>>>> on the Tamil form: வாரணாசி [vāraṇāci].
>>>>>
>>>>> See the Tamil Lexicon (p. 3610)
>>>>>
>>>>> வாரணாசி vāraṇāci, n. < Vāraṇasī. Benares, situate between the rivers
>>>>> Varaṇā and Asī; காசி. வாரணாசியோர் மறையோம்பாளன் (மணி. 13, 3).
>>>>>
>>>>> See also another entry (p.3609), which gives a different spelling.
>>>>>
>>>>> வாரணசி vāraṇaci, n. < vāraṇasī. See வாரணாசி. (யாழ். அக.)
>>>>>
>>>>> The authority quoted by the Tamil Lexicon for the spelling vāraṇāci is
>>>>> the Maṇimēkalai
>>>>> and comes from the chapter that tells the story of ஆபுததிரன்.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (Paris)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 2/15/2010 6:42 AM, Gary Tubb a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am tempted to add, in the section on mispronunciations, an entry on
>>>>>> "vaaraaNasii" (as the name of the city), with a note to the effect that, for
>>>>>> the same reasons as given for "mahaabhaarata" and "raamaayaNa," the third
>>>>>> syllable in this name is the least appropriate place to apply a stress
>>>>>> accent.  But I have been struck over the years by the frequency with which
>>>>>> many people I respect as experts on Banaras habitually lengthen and stress
>>>>>> the vowel in the third syllable---so much so that I wonder whether they
>>>>>> might be following some local tradition unknown to me, despite the official
>>>>>> spelling of the name.  Are they?  Is there any good reason to make the third
>>>>>> "a" vowel in "Varanasi" long?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Gary Tubb, Professor and Chair
>>>>>> Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations
>>>>>> The University of Chicago
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>