Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?

[Jan Westerhoff]

Many thanks, John!

This is very helpful.

Best

Jan


On Fri, April 2, 2010 09:34, J L Brockington wrote:
> Extracts from my note in FLS News: Newsletter of the Folklore Society
> 23, June 1996, p. 6 [in response to W.M.S. Russell, ?How many
> elephants??, FLS News 21, June 1995, p. 7] --
>
> "The number four is in fact the standard one for this grouping of
> mythical elephants ... .  They are guardians of the compass points, and so
> either four or sometimes eight in number. ...  E.W. Hopkins is fully
> justified in asserting in relation to the epic material: "There is no myth
> of a world-upholding elephant" (Epic Mythology, Strassburg, Trübner, 1915,
> p. 17).  ... The most widespread Hindu cosmography is based on the myth of
> the churning of the ocean, found in the Br?hma?as (e.g. ?atapatha Br?hma?a
>  3.2.4.1-6), the epics (e.g. Mah?bh?rata 1.15-17) and the Pur??as (e.g.
> Matsya Pur??a 249-251).  Here there is no mention of elephants, but Mt
> Meru is used as a churning stick or paddle to churn the ocean, and
> Vishnu takes the form of a tortoise (k?rma) on which Mt Meru is set,
> while the king of the snakes is used as the rope by which gods and Asura
> rotate the mountain.  At some stage the system of the four elephants of
> the quarters seems to have been conflated with this ... possibly in the
> Svayambh? Pur??? (a late Nepalese Pur??a); certainly
> it is not found in any of the major Pur??as."
>
> John Brockington
>
>
>
> Professor J. L. Brockington
> Secretary General, International Association of Sanskrit Studies
> Asian Studies
> 7-8 Buccleuch Place
> Edinburgh EH8 9LW
>
>
>
>
> ----- Message from westerhoff at CANTAB.NET ---------
> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:46 +0100
> From: Jan Westerhoff <westerhoff at CANTAB.NET>
> Subject: Turtles (and elephants) all the way down?
> To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
>
>
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>>
>> in his "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" (1:391-92 of the Dover
>> edition) John Locke mentions an Indian who, "saying that the world was
>> supported by a great elephant, was asked what the elephant rested on;
>> to which his answer was, a great tortoise. But being again pressed to
>> know what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied, something,
>> he knew not what."
>>
>> I am wondering what the source of that cosmological theory is. (In more
>>  contemporary versions involving a variety of scholars, including
>> Bertrand
>> Russell and William James this has metamorphosed into an elephant
>> supported by a downward infinite series of turtles). I am aware of the
>> notion of the turtle-king (kuurmaraaja) supporting the world, as well
>> as of that of a set of four (according to the Raamaaya.na) or sixteen
>> (according to the Amarako.sa) elephants doing the same, but I have been
>>  unable to trace any Indian authority describing a stacked
>> elephant-turtle support.
>>
>> I would be most grateful for any suggestions you may have!
>>
>>
>>
>> Yours
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jan Westerhoff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ***************************
>> JC Westerhoff
>> Department of Philosophy
>> University of Durham
>> 50 Old Elvet
>> Durham DH1 3HN
>> United Kingdom
>>
>>
>> www.janwesterhoff.net westerhoff at cantab.net
>>
>>
>
>
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***************************
JC Westerhoff
Department of Philosophy
University of Durham
50 Old Elvet
Durham DH1 3HN
United Kingdom

www.janwesterhoff.net
westerhoff at cantab.net