small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages

Sat Jun 20 13:49:23 UTC 2009

Dear prof. Pandurangi,

A mixture of events, consisting of movements of a decent number of people 
and the spread of their language and innovations, is not easily 'proven' by 
ancientDNA analysis. Do not forget that anatomically modern humans (H. 
sapiens sapiens) are really very similar in their DNA, so finding no proof 
with ancient DNA is not a proof that movements did not take place, but 
merely a lack of proof  thereof. I am not very impressed with such data. In 
addition, mtDNA gives better discrimination, not nuclear DNA.

Alexandra van der Geer
Museum of Paleontology
University of Athens
Greece

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Veeranarayana Pandurangi" <veerankp at GMAIL.COM>
To: <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: small qerry on OOA theory and Indo-european languages

thanks prof. witzel for kind reply.
but I am thinking of something

wikipaedia says

 Indo-Aryan migration From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: 
navigation<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration#column-one>,
search <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration#searchInput>
For other uses, see Indo-Aryan migration
(disambiguation)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_(disambiguation)>
.

Indo-European topics
 Indo-European 
languages<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages>
Albanian <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language> ·
Armenian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language>
 · Baltic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages>
Celtic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages> ·
Germanic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages>
 · Greek <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language>
Indo-Iranian <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages> (
Indo-Aryan <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_languages>,
Iranian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages>
)
Italic <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_languages> ·
Slavic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages>

extinct: Anatolian <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages> ·
Paleo-Balkans <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages>
(Dacian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language>
,
Phrygian <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language>,
Thracian<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language>
) · Tocharian <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharian_languages>
 Indo-European peoples <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_people>
Albanians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians> ·
Armenians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians>
Balts <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts> ·
Celts<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Celts>
 · Germanic 
peoples<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_peoples#Contemporary>
Greeks <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks> ·
Indo-Aryans<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryans>
Iranians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples> ·
Latins<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins>
 · Slavs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples>

historical: Anatolians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolians>
(Hittites<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites>,
Luwians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwians>)
Celts <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts>
(Galatians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia>,
Gauls <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls>) · Germanic
tribes<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples>
Illyrians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians> ·
Italics<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_peoples_of_Italy>
 · Cimmerians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians> ·
Sarmatians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians>
Scythians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians>  ·
Thracians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians>
 · Tocharians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians>
Indo-Iranians <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians> (Rigvedic
tribes<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigvedic_tribes>,
Iranian tribes <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples>)
 Proto-Indo-Europeans <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans>
Language <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language> ·
Society <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_society> ·
Religion <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion>
  *Urheimat* 
hypotheses<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_Urheimat_hypotheses>
Kurgan
hypothesis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis>
Anatolia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis> ·
Armenia<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis>
 · India <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory> ·
PCT<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Continuity_Theory>
  Indo-European studies <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_studies>

Models of the *Indo-Aryan migration* discuss scenarios of prehistoric
migrations <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_migrations> of the
early Indo-Aryans <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryans> to their
historically attested areas of settlement in the northwest of the Indian
subcontinent <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_subcontinent> (i.e. the
area of modern Pakistan <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan>) and from
there further across all of North
India<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_India>.
Claims of Indo-Aryan
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_peoples>migration is
primarily drawn from
linguistic 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language>[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration#cite_note-0>evidence
but also includes a multitude of data stemming from Vedic religion,
rituals, poetics as well as some aspects of social organization and chariot
technology. **

*However, recent extensive studies conducted on **genetics and
archaeogenetics of the South
Asian*<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_Archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia>
* population have found no proof of large population migrations, since at
least 10,000 years. *(bold mine)

I wanted to know if somebody is working linking the genetics and indology as
we put it. I am working on theme whether OOA theory handles all the issues
of language etc. and possible harmonisation of both. it seems that OOA holds
that no huge migrations in india in last 10 kys. then how it handles the
indentical language elements among IE languages.

thanks

veeranarayana

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:38 AM, Michael Witzel 
<witzel at fas.harvard.edu>wrote:

> Dear Prof. Pandurangi,
>
> I think this confuses the Out of Africa movement of anatomically modern
> humans,  75-65,000 (75 kya) years ago,
> with the spread of Indo-Europeans after c. 3000 BCE (5 kya:  they have
> copper and the newly invented (Sumerian oxen drawn wagon with heavy 
> wheels).
>
> There were no Indo-European speakers, nor even their hypothetical 
> Nostratic
> ancestors in 30 kya.
>
> The ocean shores of India (now under water after the Ice Age) were 
> occupied
> around 75-65 kya (a Tamil Nadu find), and Australia by 60-40 kya, Europe
> only by 40 kya, driving out the Neanderthals...
>
> No connection either with the so-called Aryan invasion (migration), c. 
> 1500
> BCE ...
>
> All distinct and clearly marked movements of people and their languages.
>
> Cheers,
>
> MW>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote:
>
> Dear  friends. I have a small query.
>>  how Out of africa (OOA) theory handles the problem of indo-european 
>> group
>> of languages had the european group seperated from that one bound to
>> travel
>> to south asia. India and Europe share a language to some extant. it will
>> be
>> difficult if they seperated 30000 years ago.
>>
>> or is there any material on the OOA theory and Aryan invasion theory? OOA
>> is
>> seperately dealt by DNA specialists. but has anybody from our clan tried
>> to
>> do something?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
>> Head, Dept of Darshanas,
>> Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
>> Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post
>> Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.
>>
>
> ============
> Michael Witzel
> witzel at fas.harvard.edu
> <www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm>
>
> Dept. of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
> 1 Bow Street,
> Cambridge MA 02138, USA
>
> phone: 1- 617 - 495 3295 (voice & messages), 496 8570, fax 617 - 496 8571;
> my direct line:  617- 496 2990
>

-- 
Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Head, Dept of Darshanas,
Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post
Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.

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