elves: Indic counterpart?

[George Thompson]

I myself am very sceptical about the identification of 'elf' and 'r.bhu'.
Beyond their obscurity, there is nothing "elvish' about the Rbhus.  In the
RV they are 'divine artisans', which amounts to saying that they are able to
create merely by speaking: "'let there be light', and there was light", as
it were.

They also have nothing to to with Orpheus, as far as I can tell.

Joel Brereton was presented a few papers on the Rbhus in recent years, but I
don't know whether he has published them yet.

Hillebrandt's discussion remains persuasive to me.

Best wishes,

George Thompson

-----Original Message-----
From: Indology [mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Christophe
Vielle
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 4:56 AM
To: INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
Subject: Re: elves: Indic counterpart?


It should be noted here that a Indo-European lexico-mythological
correspondance between the Germanic *alf (? cf. also Gandálfr, name of a
king in the Völuspá - I found that in Simek's Lexikon der germanischen
Mythologie, with bibliography  - so even the Tolkienian wizards could be
seen as "cousins" with the elves and dwarves), on the one hand,
and the Vedic  .rbhu, on the other hand,  was established by Adalbert Kuhn
already in 1855 (KZ 4, 103-20, p.113, cf. Wackernagel, KZ 24, p. 297,
Brugmann, Gundriss vol. 2, p. 298), followed by H. Oldenberg (Die Religion
des Veda, Berlin, 1894, pp. 64, 238, 452, 454), A.A. Macdonell (Vedic
Mythology, Strassburg, 1897, p. 133-34) and, more recently, J. Haudry, but
rejected by A. Bergaigne (La religion védique, Paris, 1897, vol. 2, pp.
407-8), Alfred Hillebrandt (Vedische Mythologie, second revised edition
Breslau 1927-29, English translation Motilal, vol. 2, p. 87-88),
and on linguistic ground not accepted by M. Mayrhofer.
Some other references on the .Rbhus:
- Félix Nève, Essai sur le mythe des Ribhavas, premier vestige de
l'apothéose dans le Véda, avec le texte sanscrit et la traduction française
des hymnes adressés à ces divinités, Paris: B. Duprat, 1847 (sometimes
still available in India).
- A.W. Ryder, Die .Rbhus im .Rgveda, Gütersloh, 1901 (ref. found in
Hillebrandt).
- G. von Simpson, "Die .Rbhus im .Rgveda: Jahreszeitengötter oder
vergöttlichte Handwerker?", ZDMG Supplement 3, 1977, pp. 955-63.


>From my German friend:
>
>Well, according to this, the elves actually come from the germanic
tradition
>(old norse Alfar, anglo-saxon Aelf, Danish elve) in German first Alb (still
>found in the word Albtraum, Alptraum, when you sleep and dream badly
because
>an elf is sitting on your chest and having his/her fun with you.
>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfen
>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alb_%28Geist%29
>Elves are related to dwarfs (indeed, the English word for dwarf comes from
>dwartalf (black elf), though both cousins do not like each other much.
>
>The idea of 3 inch mini-humans living in flowers is not Germanic--elves and
>dwarfs are significantly smaller than average humans, but not toy-like.
>
>Now I will be quiet :)
>Joanna k.


Dr. Christophe Vielle
Centre d'Etudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud
Institut orientaliste
Place Blaise Pascal 1
B - 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve
BELGIUM
Tel. +32-(0)10-47 49 54 (office)/ -(0)2-640 62 66 (home)
E-mail: vielle at ori.ucl.ac.be