Indo-Aryan words in Hurrian

[Michael Witzel]

To continue our interesting discussion on the Mit(t)an(n)i:

Some early IA immigrants may be recorded in a tablet of the Dynasty of
Agade, at the end of the third millennium BCE:  A-ri-si( <sa')-en  =
Arisaina and Sa-um-si( < sa')-en = Saumasena, which Harmatta  (1992: 374)
takes as a sign of  early Indo-Aryan spread towards Mesopotamia at c.
2300-2100 BCE.

This & the spelling is from Harmatta who deals with IIr materials (in :
Dani, A. H. and V. M. Masson (eds.), History of civilisations of Central
Asia, Vol. I. The dawn of civilisation: earliest times to 700 BCE. Paris
1992; Harmatta's paper is not reliable, has many wrong dates and forms), an
earlier version of it has been used, more or less uncritically, by the late
SS Mira (Aryan Problem 1992).

Bjarte, any comments?
--------------

>...the normal Hurrian word for seven is $indi. ...: Forme de $inti/a??";
>$inti 2, $ittaa (long a), $ittanna...

Bjarte, please let us know more whne you have more materials...
--------------------------------

Rajesh Kocchar asks:

>What exactly is meant by pre-Rgvedic? How old are the oldest portions of
>the Rgveda?

Forms that are older than Rgvedic, as in Mitanni: IE  g'h >  Indo-Iranian
j'h > pre-Rgvedic z'h > RV h :

> In short: if Mitanni has, by 1400 BC, mazda, vaz'hana, then the RV medha,
> vaahana is *late*/later.

In other words, there is a definite time difference between the two OIA
dialects, Rgvedic and Mitanni-IA. How much is the question. See below.


MW:
>Note that Possehl now wants to bring down the date
> of iron as well. If this goes down from c.1200 to, say, 1000 BCE, so goes
> the RV. It has no iron, yet.

Steve Farmer:

>The dates suggested by Possehl and Gullapalli (1999) are actually
>900 BCE, Michael -- and these are the *earliest* dates, not those
> of any wide diffusion, which they date c. 900 - 300 BCE.

I reread that paper and you are right: 900 (or maybe 1000) BC; in addition,
the important point to note, (as you say later on), is that the dates vary
for the various parts of S. Asia:

Gandhara 900/1000 BCE
PGW  900/1000
Pirak, Baluchistan 900 (1300??)
S.Indian Megaliths: Hallur 1100  (such early Deccan dates had led
Chakrabarti to surmise an origin of the N. Indian iron age in the Vindhyas
(Bihar)
Note also early Kashmir and W.Bengal materials


N. Ganesan correctly concluded:

>If the RV's final redaction in Panjab is around 1000 - 900 BCE,
>does the Mitanni text (c. 1380 bCE) represent a pre-OIA stage
> where Aryans have not entered India?

(just substitute 'first collection' for "redaction", which is later: in the
late Brahmana period, and in N.Bihar, by Sakalya)

==================

Lance Cousins had a number of points:


>>1. I doubt that we can assume that training horses is a low status or
low class occupation.

Trouble is that the only horse trainer we know of is teh Hurrite Kikkuli
(and that as an expatriate at the Hittite court). Latest news:

Starke, F. Ausbildung und Training von Streitwagenpferden : eine
hippologisch orientierte Interpretation des Kikkuli-Textes. Wiesbaden,
Harrassowitz, 1995.

P. Raulwing / R. Oberheid : Der Kikkuli-Text und die
Rolle der Indoarier im altorientalischen Fuhrwesen - Einige
Bemerkungen zu neueren hippologischen und philologischen
Interpretationen. In:  Indoarisch, Iranisch, und die Indogermanistik,
Arbeitstagung der  Indogermanischen Gesellschaft 1997 in Erlangen;  hg.  B.
Forssman & R. Plath. Wiesbaden: L. Reichert  2000


>>2. Iron is being mentioned a lot in regard to dating the earliest
Vedic texts. I wonder how much can be predicated on this basis....<<

which has been answered by S. Farmer:

>>But the Rgveda is *massive* .... [In fact 570 or 800 pp. Roman text] ...
>>Since it
deals with weaponry, which is where iron made its first major
cultural impact ...

more on this below, sub 4.


LC:
3. it is important to note that iron probably did not have
significant advantages over bronze initially.

For this point, on which S Farmer has touched as well, better to read
Possehl & Gullapalli: (Meteoric) iron was treasured, even in the Bronze
age, for its hardness. and used appropriately.

LC.
4. Without the Mitanni evidence I would see no conclusive evidence to
_prove_ a date earlier than the eighth century. With it an earlier
date does seem likely. But, given that, one feels that a thorough
reexamination of the Mitanni material is overdue.

Last by Mayrhofer, M. Die Indo-Arier im vorderen Orient. Wiesbaden:
Harrassowitz 1966
and  Mayrhofer, M.  Die Arier im vorderen Orient - ein Mythos? Wien 1974
But cf. his Etym. Dict: esp., Mitanni Index in Vol. III: Etymologisches
Woerterbuch des Altindoarischen. Heidelberg : Carl Winter 1986-2000
cf. also Iranisches Personennamenbuch. Band I. Die Altiranischen Namen.
Wien 1979

========================================================

Steve Farmer:
>>... The old argument had it that the introduction of iron in South Asia
>>ca. 1200 or even 1300 BCE ... meant that the whole of the RV, which
>>doesn't mention iron, *must* date before
that period. Now it appears that iron came at a much later date to South
Asia -- with important regional differences complicating things further...
It doesn't *prove* the case for later dates of the RV, but it certainly
makes the case far more likely. .... <<


Since we cannot cram everything into just one email, and Dominik will
protest, here an addition to my earlier post:

The RV matter is of course based on the (always weak) argumentum ex nihilo.
It is complicated /enhanced by  the fact that RV asi 'sword' = Latin ensis
'sword'; both per Thieme 1958  from 'black' (metal), see Mayrhofer, Etym
Dict. 1986- , vol.II 154.

And asi first occurs first in the late RV books 1 and 10.  In short, if
correct, the late RV may have the first occurence of iron.

Which brings its late stratum (before collection, "samhita", as distinct
from te much later redaction) down, close to 1000 BCE (instead of 1200 BCE)
---  of course always per present archaeology, (and that many change
again).

Importantly, in the immediate post-RV Samhitas (AV, YV) iron is firmly
established as 'black metal'. They overlap nicely, in time and geographical
extent, with the Painted Gray Ware culture of Haryana, UP, Chambal area,
see MW, Tracing the Vedic dialects. In: C. Caillat (ed.), Dialectes dans
les littratures indo-aryennes. Paris : 1989, 97-264






========================================================
Michael Witzel
Department of Sanskrit & Indian Studies, Harvard University
2 Divinity Avenue, Cambridge MA 02138, USA

ph. 1- 617-496 2990 (also messages)
home page:  http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm

Elect. Journ. of Vedic Studies:  http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs