FW: Deepa Mehta's _Fire_

[Erik Hoogcarspel]

Op dinsdag, 12-jan-99 schreef Paul Kekai Manansala:



PKM> Mahacina does not necessarily refer to China.

To which other places you think that would be

 However, I don't agree
PKM> with your theories regarding texts.  We don't even know if Tantra
PKM> practices were originally written or oral traditions. We don't have
PKM> Saivite texts from IVC, but there is good reason to believe a
prototype
PKM> of some of the main forms of Siva came from that culture.

PKM> And the idea of Tantric influences from Mahacina is not what I say,
but
PKM> what the Tantric texts themselves say.

It's a very peculiar point of view, taken into account the fact that the
Chinese never accepted the typical tantric rites, because they were shocked
by it. The Chenyen or True Word in Chinese buddhism is a mixture of
confucianism and lower level tantra, which is not sexually oriented and
doesn't use skulls in its rites. It would also appear very strange that
quite a few Tibetans took many pains and gave lots of money to Indian
tantric adepts in order to be initiated in the secrets of tantra. Some of
these travels between the 8th and 10th centruy are documented. Tantra was
unknown in Tibet before the middle of hte 8th century, still the
Guhyasamaaja tantra has been dated before the sixth century. What the old
Bonreligion was about is still open for speculation, because we no
documents from the kingdom of Zangzung have been found. The new Bon was
nothing but a reversed copy of the existing buddhist practices in  Tibet.
The older tantras say nothing about mahacina. Besides I think the old yogis
were all
but geographical specialists, so I wouldn't take a few references to a
mythical country called 'mahacina' as a scientific proof. The passages you
refer to are not convincing since they are the only ones among a vast body
of tantric litterature.
I suggest you ask tibetologists and sinologists for established facts before
you make all too
bold statements. I've not read anything in tantras like the Guhyasamaaja,
Cakrasamvaara or Hevajra that suggests any Chinese influence. And last but
not least: the taoist ideas about sex are very different from those I read
in the tantras. I've never read in tantras that you have to copulate with
as much people of the other sex in order to strengthen you lifeforce.
Furthermore the goal of the older buddhist and hindutantras is moksha and
not immortality.
Some gentlemen on this list who are speculating about an African Ziva seem
to think that if two things look alike one must be the orginal and the
other the copy. Levi-Strauss gave an exposition of this fallacy in European
antropology in his 'Antropologie Structurale'. The bottomline is some
things just happen to look alike!

Regards
--
erik


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