Tibetan Origin of Tantrism and Siva

[Samar Abbas]

On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Erik Hoogcarspel wrote:
>It's a very peculiar point of view, taken into account the fact that the
>Chinese never accepted the typical tantric rites, because they were
>shocked by it.

That goes for Confucianism. We are talking about mainly Tibet and perhpas
Taoism. Taoism does not display the attitudes you mention.

>It would also appear very strange that
>quite a few Tibetans took many pains and gave lots of money to Indian
>tantric adepts in order to be initiated in the secrets of tantra.

But the first Indian Tantric, Vasistha, learned Tantra in Tibet (cf. the
first post in this thread). Moreover, Japanese scholars go to the USA to
study Christianity. That does not imply that the USA is the home of
Christianity. It is possible that East Indics further developed Tantrism,
and were hence in great demand in Tibet. They were not in such great
demand in India, from the exodus to Tibet, and otherwise they would not
have gone.

> Tantra was
> unknown in Tibet before the middle of hte 8th century, still the
> Guhyasamaaja tantra has been dated before the sixth century.

Again, this is based on dating etc. and is subject to revision.  Many of
the Tantras survive only in Tibetan and in no other language.

> What the old
> Bonreligion was about is still open for speculation, because we no
> documents from the kingdom of Zangzung have been found.

As per legend, the ancient Bon dieties were subjugated into the Buddhist
pantheon. It is only natural to assume that the rites with which they wer
worshipped also entered Tibetan Buddhism in this way. Budhism in Tibet did
not eradicate the pre-Buddhist deities, it subsumed them, and in turn got
modified. Thus, one still can reconstruct the Bon religion.

> The new Bon was
>nothing but a reversed copy of the existing buddhist practices in  Tibet.

Bon pre-dated Buddhism. It experienced late revivals after Buddhism came.

>The older tantras say nothing about mahacina.

That depends on the dating of the Tantras, and the survivability. I can
always say that the older ones are lost, and we will reach a stalemate in
this. Those that survive mention Tibet as the source.

>Besides I think the old
>yogis were all but geographical specialists,
>so I wouldn't take a few references to a
>mythical country called 'mahacina' as a scientific proof.

That is why they confused Tibet with Mahacina. Mahacina, or Great China,
is not mythical. It is known that it was situated beyond the Himalayas.
Hsuan Tsang and Fa-hsien must have told some people about China.
The invasion from China after Harsha's death must have instilled some
sence of China.

>The passages you
>refer to are not convincing since they are the only ones among a vast
>body of tantric litterature.

Would like to see some quotes stating that the 5th Veda fell somewhere
outside Tibet, and that Vasishta travelled to somewhere other than Tibet
to learn Tantra. The vast body of literature has so far not furnished us
with any other sources.

>I suggest you ask tibetologists and sinologists for established facts
>before you make all too bold statements.

Any Tibetologists are welcome to contribute their learned opinions.

> And last but
>not least: the taoist ideas about sex are very different from those I
> read in the tantras.
>I've never read in tantras that you have to copulate with
>as much people of the other sex in order to strengthen you lifeforce.

There are several similarities, the technique of retention, for instance.
The postures prescribed are also very similar.
Then Shiva-Shakti is the same as Yin-Yang.

>Some gentlemen on this list who are speculating about an African Ziva
>seem to think that if two things look alike one must be the orginal and the
>other the copy. Levi-Strauss gave an exposition of this fallacy in
> European antropology in his 'Antropologie Structurale'.
> The bottomline is some
> things just happen to look alike!

This is based not just on a similarity of Sivas. There is anthropological
and genetic proof of the unity of Dravidian and African peoples. If the
Dravidians came from Africa, then they may have brought their religion
along as well.

Samar