The Fodder of First causes

[Edwin Bryant]

On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Chris Beetle wrote:

> >. . . If jiva's own
> >desire is the cause, and karma then reacts to this desire and triggers off
> >samsaric existence, then wherefrom the first inappropriate desire and
> >karmic act?  . . .
>
> Can one say simply that as Isvara has independence, his amsa (the jiva),
> also has independence, though limited in expression, and if jiva uses his
> free will to choose to oppose the Isvara, his samsaric existence begins, and
> when he gives up his rebellion, his samsaric existence ends?

One could say this.  But, then, from where did the jiva make this initial
act of rebellion?  One would have to assume that it was a pre-samsaric
decision, since you are proposing that it *resulted* in samsara.  If this
pre-samsaric condition was Vaikuntha, then how could imperfection enter
Vaikuntha (ie how could a pure jiva devoid of ahamkara, buddhi, manas, etc
in a pure, transcendent, non-prakritic realm make an impure decision)?

If the jiva was not in Vaikuntha (and the Gita notes that one who attains
that realm *never* returns to samsara suggesting that one cannot fall from
the paramdham), then where was it's pre-samsaric locus?  Similar issues,
of course, have taxed Christian theologians with the fall of Satan and of
man.  EB