Paired Horse and PIE breakup
hubeyh at MONTCLAIR.EDU
Sun Nov 8 01:25:15 UTC 1998
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:
> I do accept all the *evidence* assembled in favour of a Ponto-Caspian
> homeland. I do believe that during the Yama/Kurgan cultural phase
> (3500 BC-2500 BC), and maybe beginning slightly before that,
> Indo-European peoples spread out from there east and west and
> established themselves in the Hungarian plain / the Balkans and in
> Central Asia. There is good archaeological evidence for that, and it
The northwestern part of the Black Lake (sea after the inundation
circa 5500 BC?) was submerged because of the iruption of the
That area could have been home of early farmers and could have forced
them to disperse from there into Europe. That much was written in the
Science News article. What language they spoke remains a mystery.
there are some strange things. The Black Sea was called "Carbolic"
or karabalik) meaning either "much, abundant fish" or "black/dark mud"
both in, yes, you guessed it Turkic or some language related to Sumerian
or maybe even a "Mediterranean language" (due to Lahovary, who puts
Etruscans, Sumerians, Berbers, Nilo-Saharans, Dravidians and some
languages into a pre-IE and pre-AA group). I think 'gar' is Sumerian for
'large, strong, abundant'.
It should be noted that Lahovary's book dates from circa 1960s.
the fact that the sea levels were 300 feet lower and thus that EAst
Africa, Arabian Peninsula, and India were "one contiguous region" is
a newer idea written up in Science recently. AT this time North Africa
was humid and fertile.
Tuna's Sumero-Turkic cognate book is circa 1990. So they are converging
towards similar ideas and are mutually supporting.
What probably happened was that as the glaciers melted the equatorial
belt started to dry up, it not only separated this single region, but
the drying up of the river in the Arabian peninsula also forced people
to move around. The North Africans probably moved westwards into Egypt,
and maybe the Congoids moved eastwards and forced the Nilo-Saharans also
into motion. This time of great mixing in the Middle East probably gave
rise to centuries of bilingualism and trilingualism and the mixture of
these with the old languages of that area probably gave rise to a new
set of languages now recognized as AA and IE.
This also explains why some of these "mediterranean" languages' words
pop up in both IE and AA. Probably one of these migrant peoples moved
northwards via the CAucasus and into the plains and these could be the
reasons for the Turkic-Sumer cognates, and why so much evidence points
the Turkic homeland in the West, and not East.
IT also explains why the m > k (Sumer>Turkic) also occurs in
Dravidian>Turkic (which I just discovered in Lahovary's book). It also
explains how I could find about 30 pages of Hittite-Turkic cognates
and why so much of Hittite is non-IE and why its syntax (verb grades)
resembles AA binyanim, and why some of its words are practically
with ancient-old Turkic. And the Sumer > Turkic change n > y can also
be found in Mongol > Turkic. Other changes such as r > y or l>y or
r>sh, or l>z can also be found in Dravidian>Turkic, etc.
I should also note that Tuna does not claim Sumerian and Turkic are
related at all. He notes that all the words he found, were labeled by
the great Sumerologist Benno Landsberger as "proto-Euphratic" not
Sumerian. That is essentially the region where a people named Turuk(ku)
are found (check the Cambridge ANE series). Not only the Turuk(ku) but
also the Kuman(ni) and the Khumuk(ku), and the Kashkai (all Turkic
speaking at later times) are in that region.
A large part of this evidence points to that region.
> Even if all IE languages spread out from the Pontic-Caspian between
> 4000 and 3000 BC, in several different waves (and there's precious
It is hard to believe that they could have spread in carts in a region
without trees. it is likely that they were made in the civilization
centers. A treeless steppe is hardly a place where nomads can make
carts, wheels, cast bronze (especially since copper is lacking
almost completely in that region) to make weapons etc. The impetus
could have come from the south via the Caucasus and the Caucasus not
only has metals but also trees and is close to the Middle EAst. That
is also the place where the Caucasian speakers could have mixed with
arrivals from Africa and the other "Mediterranean" folks to create
The migration routes and other things would be very difficult to
sort out, but Anatolia/ME looks like a good region or at least
one of the regions. The other region could be those that moved
from north of the Black Lake (after the inundation) into the
> little evidence for that), and assuming of course that the Hittites
> were the first to leave, that only gives the rest of IE at most 1000
> years or so to develop all the innovations that separate it from
> Anatolian. I say that's impossible. At least two millennia seems
> like a much more credible margin (my date of 5500 BC, coinciding with
> the split off of the Danubian/LBK-complex).
If long term multilingualism was created in the ME things could have
changed very rapidly to create languages like and unlike those that
they were produced from.
> No, that is one of Renfrew's more silly theories. There is
> sufficient evidence in SW Europe for non-IE speakers, especially in
> Spain with Iberian, Tartessian? and Basque. Italy and France (apart
> from Basque-speaking Aquitania) are less clear (Etruscan being a
> recent arrival from the Aegean, not a pre-IE survival), but we have
There are also the Trojans, who Herodotus says moved to the Balkans.
> >For example 'jupiter', 'zeus pater' and 'dyauH pitaa' are just
> >coincidences? Or go back to the neolithic?
Circassian Dza Yeus? Parma Thaus (Prometheus)? Tiat Tians (Titans?)
Could be home-cooked by K. Natho, but you never know.
hubeyh at montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey
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