Sarasvati (texts & arch.II)

[Paul K. Manansala]

 Michael Witzel <witzel at FAS.HARVARD.EDU>


> On Sun, 24 May 1998, Paul K. Manansala wrote:
>
> > Isn't Vasistha connected with Eastern India in later literature?
> > Some intereresting facts about Vasistha:
> >
> > 1. He promoted cow worship (among beef-eaters?).
> > 2. He raised tens sons on King Sudas' wife (among patriarchal
> >     peoples?)
> > 3. In later literature he is the priest of Danavas and Daityas.
>
> PRECISELY:  in later literature. The Epics and the Puranas are
> re-formulations and re-interpretations, with a lot of changes made, of the
> Vedic texts.  Vasistha as been promoted "to the Heavens" in such texts,
> while in the RV he is a newcomer, without Angirasa background etc.
>

However, even in the RV  Vasistha's culture does not seem particularly
IE.  The RV (II 5-3-7) states that the priests of the Saudasas were Angirasas,
and Vasistha was the priest of Sudas.

> Or do you also doubt that the Epics/Puranas are *late* texts compared to
> the Vedas?
> (Love to see the proof!)
>

Well, according to tradition, Krishna Dvaipayana compiled both at the
same time.  Also, the Puranas are at least attempts at historical
writing.  One can't say the same thing about the Vedas.

> > > The Old Iranian of the older Avesta (Zarathustra's Gatha-s) is
> > > linguistically hardly younger than the RV. Absolute dating has not been
> > > established, though. B
>
> > But the Avesta is in neighboring Iran several centuries after the
> > proposed "invasion".  If the Avestan language is younger, then using
> > the standard  presumption we should suggest a migration from east to
> > west.
>
> How do you know that? Standard presumption?

The practice used in most other cases.  Why make exceptions here?

There simply is no means so
> far to date any Avesta texts independently from the Near Eastern sources
> and from correpondensces with the Vedas, see O Skjaervo in the Erdosy
> Volume 1995. (We would love to have a Chinese ambassador at that time in
> Bactria. Unfortunately, he came 1000 years too late!).
>
> Avestan is often MORE archaic than the frequently INNOVATIVE Rgvedic.
>
> The last sentence gives away your suppositions. -- On reading any Avesta
> section in the original you would see that it does not contain anything
> (linguistically) that could have come out of India. No Indian words, no
> Indian ideas, no Harappan items etc.

I would strongly disagree with this statement, but the argument
against it could get long and complicated.


> > > That has changed wit the finds in Bactria-Margiana and Baluchistan.
> > > Now their is a *trail*, see Hiebert in Erdosy, Indo_Aryans of Ancient
> > > South Asia, 1995. Plus the Gandhara grave culture, plus Swat.  All
> > > starting about 1880/1700 BC., and after the destruction of the Bactrian
> > > horizon about 2100 BC.
> > >>
> > Highly questionable.  We have to question the "Aryan" identification
> > here.  A lot of presumptions used to back up other presumptions.
> >
> > "Highly questionable" does not do it. This is a scholarly list (so we
> > hope) , not politics. Some examples are necessary. Let's have
> discussionon the arch. cultures mentioned above... But then,the horse, or
> rather Dadhyanc will raise its ugly horse head again...
>

Wrong.  The onus is on you to prove IE identification. Since we are
talking mainly about language, I would love to hear of something more
than a horse burial which was very common among *non-IE* peoples.

Regards,
Paul Kekai Manansala