Dear Fabrice,

Thanks, I didn't know that a pātram would also indicate an ascetic.  I still wonder what kind of vessel this is . .   . 

Yes I now remember I have actually asked about the śūciḥ in his hand in this list some time ago, but had forgotten!  At that time someone also suggested that it could indicate a mudrā.  This is unlikely however, because the passages in question are simply lists of implements held in the hands of deities; e.g. Kālacakratantrta 4.34cd: śūciś cāpy akṣasūtraṃ bhavati karatale śūlabāṇaṃ ca pāśo ratnaṃ parśuś ca vajraṃ bhavati haritale cakradaṇḍaś ca savye. It is clear that every item in these lists is an object held in the hand, and not a mudrā, and unfortunately so far I have not seen any elaboration on them in the text. 

Maybe it simply means "needle."

Yours,
Paul

On Mon, Jul 13, 2026 at 7:50 PM Fabrice Duvinage <fabrice.duvinage@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sir,

The  pātram and the  kamaṇḍaluḥ show Brahma as an ascetic, a mendicant.  sūciḥ  could be meant as a mudrā  . It indicates 'One Supreme Brahman’ in the Natyashastra. What does the text exactly say?

Sincerely yours,

Fabrice Duvinage

Fabrice Duvinage
52, rue Clémenceau
57360 Amnéville
0652825128


Le lun. 13 juil. 2026 à 14:34, Paul Thomas via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> a écrit :
Hello Colleagues,

I have three questions about the iconography of Brahmā. 

First, in the Buddhist Laghukālacakratantra and its commentary the Vimalaprabhā, Brahmā and Brahmāṇī are consistently described as holding a śūciḥ in one of their hands.  This is translated by the Tibetans as khab, which means "needle," so they, possibly with the input of Indian scholars, understood it as sūciḥ (all the mss. I am using are Bengali or Nepalese).  Along with the editors of these texts, I wonder if this is some kind of obscure form of sruk, as that makes sense as something Brahmā or Brahmāṇī would be holding.  I'm not sure why they would be holding a needle.

Second, they are also described as holding a pātram.  What kind of vessel would this be, a platter of some kind?  Would it contain anything?  Why carry an empty vessel?

Finally—and this one should be easy—they are of course also sometimes described as carrying a kamaṇḍaluḥ/kuṇḍī/kuṇḍikā.  Thus is of course more well-known.  I have seen this translated as "water-pot" or "water-pitcher," but was this vessel really only intended to carry water?  Also is it more of a "pitcher" or "flask" (kalaśaḥ), or is it something else?

Thank you and best wishes,
Paul

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