Hi Patrick  

My recollection is that There is an old controversy as to whether the sugata in sugata-vitasti means “conventional, current “ or “the Buddha’s”, in which case the term would be comparable to the king’s foot establishing the standard measure in Europe. I wrote something about this but I don’t remember where exactly. I am in Kolkata now but can check up my  old files when I get back.

I do remember that Gustav Roth discussed this in one of his works on Vinaya. I think he was arguing against Schlingloff on this point.

Rich 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 3, 2025, at 11:30 PM, Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:


Thanks, Madhav. This is very helpful. Yes, we have vitasti also in Kauṭilya — viewed as 12 aṅgulas, or about 24 cm (my own vitasti is only 21 cm, but I have a small hand!!). There would then be 4.5 vitastis in a hasta.

Thanks again.

Patrick




On Jan 3, 2025, at 11:12 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh@umich.edu> wrote:

Patrick,

I found one likely explanation:

Source: Sutta: The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary

Vidatthi, (f.) (cp. Vedic vitasti; see Geiger, P. Gr. 383) a span (of 12 aṅgulas or finger-breadths) Vin. III, 149 (dīghaso dvādasa vidatthiyo sugata-vidatthiyā); IV, 279; J. I, 337; III, 318; Miln. 85; Vism. 65, 124, 171, 175, 408; DhA. III, 172; IV, 220; VbhA. 343 (dvādas’ aṅgulāni vidatthi; dve vidatthiyo ratanaṃ, etc.). (Page 621)


Not connected to "hasta".


The word "vitasti" likely survives in Marathi as वीत vīt, a measure "from the tip of thumb to the tip of the small finger of a stretched hand". This is a common Marathi word.


Madhav


Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 7:33 AM Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
Friends:

Happy New Year. Someone from Thailand sent me this query, and I turn to you all for any possible answers:

The reference we found states: "...the sugatavidatthi is really just the sugata hattha"

    1. The definition and relationship between sugata and hattha in your research
    2. The historical and textual basis for the 42.6cm measurement of a hattha

Additionally, if you are familiar with Buddhist texts, we would be very interested in understanding: 3. How this measurement might relate to the Buddha's span (sugatavidatthi) as mentioned in the Vinaya texts. However, we completely understand if this falls outside your area of research.

This information is crucial for his research on Vinaya rules regarding robe dimensions (particularly the 6-hattha height limit for robes) and monastic dwelling specifications. Understanding these measurements has practical implications for maintaining authenticity in modern Buddhist monastic practice.

With thanks and warm good wishes,

Patrick





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