Thanks for the very useful replies.On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 09:19:28 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith <smith.caley@gmail.com> wrote:>Thanks! Parenthood has been amazing so far.
>It's not lost on me that as a new father I am making a lot of
>claims about heavenly fatherhood.
Yes, I noticed that coincidence too. Perhaps your new father status will grant you some special insights into our topic. Although, from what you say, those won't involve any parenting tips from Indra.
>Iranian doesn't provide any evidence for us, so
>if Dyaus Pitar was an important figure, his importance likely declined
>already in a shared Indo-Iranian period prior to the speech community's division.
Could you please direct me to any discussions or sources on that if you have them at hand?
It's interesting that we find Dyaus in Indic but not Iranian if I understand you correctly. Is it possible that might give us some hint of a somewhat more complex process of separation between Indic and Iranian? I don't really know what that might be at the moment, but it is something to let percolate in the background of my mind.
>I am not certain there is particular importance, personally, to assign to the figure of Tiu.
The main reason I fall into the camp that proposes that Tiu was originally a more important god than existing records indicate is because in Anglo-Saxon (and other Germanic countries), four of the days of the week are named after gods, and the other three gods were clearly among the most important deities: Odin/Wodan, Thor, and Frig -- or Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
>Consider Old English Tīwesdæg "Tuesday" is etymologically cognate with a hypothetical
>Sanskrit devadaha*, ... if I am not mistaken.
How does the Sanskrit daha* relate to the Germanic dæg or 'day'?
>And in Irish, the Dagda would go by cognate, hypothetically, with a Sanskrit dahadeva.*
I'm glad you introduced the Dagda, one of my favorite father gods. Do you see any more connections? Also, do you see a connection with Taranis in any of this to either Dyaus or Indra?
>BUT In an email to me, John Lowe pointed out, and I think quite convincingly,
>that we have to reconstruct a vocative Dyews Phter to the proto-level
>... So, this pragmatic dimension does make me reconsider
>what I said earlier, and I thank him for pointing this out. ...
>I'll have to think very carefully about this.
I'd be interested in your further thoughts as they evolve.
>it's more likely that Indra is taking over mythical deed once attributed to Trita and Mitra,
> this there is some comparative data from Avestan that let's us think through the problem.
I feel like this is becoming a repetitive refrain, but could you point me to some discussion of this? As well as this: "This is something Kuiper, Jamison, and Brereton observe in X.124, the peaceful switch from asura power to Indra's devic supremacy."
>I would ask myself what the political organization of steppe peoples is like
> and if it is more like how Indo-Iranians were organized or more like how Greeks and
>Romans were organized, and what kind of myths would make sense to
>the worldview of that audience and would be useful for their own political operations.
This is one of the lines of thinking I am following in my own research at the moment. I think some theorists of the early Indo-Europeans were over-influenced by the evidence from state-level societies like the Greeks and Romans and didn't think enough about how the early period would have been more of a tribal chieftain organization.
Thanks for all of the thought-provoking comments.
Best,
Dean
On Thursday, June 2, 2022 at 09:19:28 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith <smith.caley@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Dean,Thanks! Parenthood has been amazing so far. It's not lost on me that as a new father I am making a lot of claims about heavenly fatherhood.Regarding the claim that "the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really be reconstructed to the Indo-Iranian level," what I mean is that Iranian doesn't provide any evidence for us, so if Dyaus Pitar was an important figure, his importance likely declined already in a shared Indo-Iranian period prior to the speech community's division.I am not certain there is particular importance, personally, to assign to the figure of Tiu. Consider Old English Tīwesdæg "Tuesday" is etymologically cognate with a hypothetical Sanskrit devadaha*, which I think is the name of the great-grandfather of the Buddha (via Devadaha > Anjana > Maya > Siddhartha), if I am not mistaken. And in Irish, the Dagda would go by cognate, hypothetically, with a Sanskrit dahadeva.* My point is first, Tiu goes back to deva not dyaus, and that's a real difference. Second, it's possible to create what looks like a PIE figure from Tiu, Dagda, and Devadaha but I think it would be ill-advised to do so.BUT In an email to me, John Lowe pointed out, and I think quite convincingly, that we have to reconstruct a vocative Dyews Phter to the proto-level---which is suggestive of a certain use, isn't it? An atheist today might well say "o god!" without believing in god, simply because the vocative is an inherited part of the lexicon. So, this pragmatic dimension does make me reconsider what I said earlier, and I thank him for pointing this out. Still, this figure would likely not resemble, in my mind, the Greek Zeus and the figure of Ouranos looks to NW semitic to me for a reliable reconstruction (cf. Ugaritic El, sky-father of the gods, who are conceived of as the stars in the sky), when this astrological element is absent from Sanskrit Dyaus Pitar (although Varuna does have night-sky affinities...). I'll have to think very carefully about this.On that note, Kuiper's publication is Varuna and Vidusaka (https://archive.org/details/varunaandvidusakaontheoriginofsanskritdramakuiperf.b.j./page/n1/mode/2up)As for Indra's replacing Dyaus Pitar, I am not convinced. I do think a sukta-era Indra-ism did result in the appropriation of a broad spectrum of heroic deeds to Indra, but in this case it's more likely that Indra is taking over mythical deed once attributed to Trita and Mitra, this there is some comparative data from Avestan that let's us think through the problem. But what is the evidence of IIr Dyaus Pitar actually doing anything?Conversely, let's consider for a second what we know about the sukta-era political system and the function of the Soma pressing ritual. It seems like it was used to consecrate a temporary leader, we might think of this leader as suzerain but I think kingship goes a bit too far in terms of sovereignty. This kind of power was likely based on a patron's personal charisma legitimized through priestly/poetic performance and ritual distribution of wealth to shore up support. In other words, part of a process of coalition building. Any coalition would have old leaders and new leaders, and not necessarily ones from the same clan let alone household. It stands to reason that a mythological structure that provided a conceptual map for the peaceful transition of power would be completely appropriate in such a system. This is something Kuiper, Jamison, and Brereton observe in X.124, the peaceful switch from asura power to Indra's devic supremacy. Put differently, we need not imagine that a deus otiosus ever needed to be, once upon a time, the primary object of worship. His role could always be that of deus otiosus going back as far as you need. It's unmotivated to assume the necessity of mythological replacement, when there is real social value in the figure of a "sky god emeritus." In fact, in Ugarit this is exactly how the god El functioned, Baal was the primary object of worship and El was a creator/fertility entity whose primary job was to resist and then accept Baal's supremacy.Not that we should reconstruct PIE to be like Ugaritic! My point is that a myth like this could serve a social function, while different systems of political organization, for example polis kingship in Greece, could reinvent the figure by fusing elements of a deus otiosus with a heroic actor (thus Zeus, this parallels the figure of Yahweh who appears to be a fusion of Baal and El).So, at the risk of seeming strident and insistence (and I don't actually have a real theory of Dyews Phtr just qualms), I think what the figure meant and indicated in PIE is still very much an open question, but if I were a betting man (and thank the gods I am not), I would ask myself what the political organization of steppe peoples is like and if it is more like how Indo-Iranians were organized or more like how Greeks and Romans were organized, and what kind of myths would make sense to the worldview of that audience and would be useful for their own political operations. Just thinking out loud!Best,CaleyOn Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 11:02 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural@yahoo.com> wrote:First, congratulations to Caley on the newborn!Thanks to everyone for the useful and insightful comments.Thanks to Hans Henrich for giving me some valuable pointers to look further into the situation regarding Dyaus, Zeus, Jupiter, and the sadly mysterious Germanic Tiu.Thanks to Caley and others for taking it beyond my original thoughts to suggest other connections.Forgive my limited knowledge and understanding. Caley (and others) how would you view your comment that "the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really be reconstructed to the Indo-Iranian level" in light of the connection beyond the Indo-Iranians to the Greeks, Romans, (and the sadly mysterious Germanic Tiu)?> Important father figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124,>Kuiper has some interesting thoughts on this.Do you happen to remember the name of Kuiper's publication?>It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character>that he is not a biological father, and thus perhaps any study>of the figure of a dyaus pitarAnd yet I have read elsewhere of Indra "replacing" Dyaus. What are your thoughts on this?DeanOn Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:48:14 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith <smith.caley@gmail.com> wrote:It seems to me speaking of an Indic diminishing of a dyaus pitar as maybe jumping the gun. There are plenty of heavenly figures (tvastr and savitar are often characterized as deva/divya) but the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really be reconstructed to the indo-Iranian level. Important father figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124, Kuiper has some interesting thoughts on this. And of course there is a heavenly mother in Aditi, I think it's first in Breretons the Rgvedic Adityas he suggests an adj a-diti "unbound" that applied to heavenly could be reanalyzed as the femimine partner of Heaven and become a goddess in her own right. If I misremember these things please forgive, I'm on my phone bouncing my newborn currently.It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character that he is not a biological father, and thus perhaps any study of the figure of a dyaus pitar might have to really re think what the family as an in situ political unit means in PIE and IIr. It's not really obvious to me that a steppe clan based family in a segmentation society should in any way have a similar concept of family and paternity as the fixed field agrarian Greek or Roman one. Sorry is not more helpful.Best,CaleyOn Mon, May 30, 2022, 2:27 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:Thanks Hans Henrich,I was aware that he was not widely mentioned in RV but I hadn't thought of the ramifications of that until your post.I realize this may be the wrong place to ask this, but are you aware of any studies on the origin and fate of Dyaus/Zeus/Tiu across or within the other Indo-European languages?Best,DeanOn Monday, May 30, 2022, 10:21:02 PM GMT+5:30, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock@illinois.edu> wrote:Dear Dean,
Even in the RigVeda dyauṣ pitṛ appears only six times; dyauḥ by itself, of course, occurs frequently, but often in feminine gender. In addition, there is the compound dyāvāpṛthivī.
So, while dyauṣ pitṛ (and his relation to pṛthivī mātṛ) may be important from the perspective of comparative Indo-European mythology, his role in the Vedic tradition is highly diminished from the beginning. Other deities (Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, etc.) play a more important role, and in Vedic Prose, Viṣṇu, as personification of the sacrifice, becomes more important (as well as Rudra), and of course Prajāpati, the ‘lord of creatures’.
I hope this at least partly answers your query.
All the best,
Hans Henrich
On 30 May2022, at 08:43, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
Dear Indology List,
Can anyone point me to any studies that discuss what happened to the Vedic Dyaus Pater who was important in the Rig Veda but who seems to have been supplanted in later times?
It's particularly interesting for Indo-European studies because Dyaus is related to the Greek Zeus and the Germanic Tyr/Tius and Dyaus Pater to the Roman Ju-piter.
Best,
Dean
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