First, congratulations to Caley on the newborn!

Thanks to everyone for the useful and insightful comments.

Thanks to Hans Henrich for giving me some valuable pointers to look further into the situation regarding Dyaus, Zeus, Jupiter, and the sadly mysterious Germanic Tiu.

Thanks to Caley and others for taking it beyond my original thoughts to suggest other connections.

Forgive my limited knowledge and understanding. Caley (and others) how would you view your comment that "the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really be reconstructed to the Indo-Iranian level" in light of the connection beyond the Indo-Iranians to the Greeks, Romans, (and the sadly mysterious Germanic Tiu)?

> Important father figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124,

>Kuiper has some interesting thoughts on this.

Do you happen to remember the name of Kuiper's publication?

>It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character

>that he is not a biological father, and thus perhaps any study

>of the figure of a dyaus pitar

And yet I have read elsewhere of Indra "replacing" Dyaus. What are your thoughts on this?

Dean

On Tuesday, May 31, 2022 at 10:48:14 PM GMT+5:30, Caley Smith <smith.caley@gmail.com> wrote:

It seems to me speaking of an Indic diminishing of a dyaus pitar as maybe jumping the gun. There are plenty of heavenly figures (tvastr and savitar are often characterized as deva/divya) but the importance of a dyaus pitar can't even really be reconstructed to the indo-Iranian level. Important father figures are the Father Asura from RV 10.124, Kuiper has some interesting thoughts on this. And of course there is a heavenly mother in Aditi, I think it's first in Breretons the Rgvedic Adityas he suggests an adj a-diti "unbound" that applied to heavenly could be reanalyzed as the femimine partner of Heaven and become a goddess in her own right. If I misremember these things please forgive, I'm on my phone bouncing my newborn currently.

It seems to me a particulary important part of Indra's character that he is not a biological father, and thus perhaps any study of the figure of a dyaus pitar might have to really re think what the family as an in situ political unit means in PIE and IIr. It's not really obvious to me that a steppe clan based family in a segmentation society should in any way have a similar concept of family and paternity as the fixed field agrarian Greek or Roman one. Sorry is not more helpful.

Best,

Caley

On Mon, May 30, 2022, 2:27 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Thanks Hans Henrich,

I was aware that he was not widely mentioned in RV but I hadn't thought of the ramifications of that until your post.

I realize this may be the wrong place to ask this, but are you aware of any studies on the origin and fate of Dyaus/Zeus/Tiu across or within the other Indo-European languages?

Best,

Dean

On Monday, May 30, 2022, 10:21:02 PM GMT+5:30, Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock@illinois.edu> wrote:

Dear Dean,

Even in the RigVeda dyauṣ pitṛ appears only six times; dyauḥ by itself, of course, occurs frequently, but often in feminine gender. In addition, there is the compound dyāvāpṛthivī.

So, while dyauṣ pitṛ (and his relation to pṛthivī mātṛ) may be important from the perspective of comparative Indo-European mythology, his role in the Vedic tradition is highly diminished from the beginning. Other deities (Agni, Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, etc.) play a more important role, and in Vedic Prose, Viṣṇu, as personification of the sacrifice, becomes more important (as well as Rudra), and of course Prajāpati, the ‘lord of creatures’.

I hope this at least partly answers your query.

All the best,

Hans Henrich

On 30 May2022, at 08:43, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Dear Indology List,

Can anyone point me to any studies that discuss what happened to the Vedic Dyaus Pater who was important in the Rig Veda but who seems to have been supplanted in later times?

It's particularly interesting for Indo-European studies because Dyaus is related to the Greek Zeus and the Germanic Tyr/Tius and Dyaus Pater to the Roman Ju-piter.

Best,

Dean

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