On 18 Nov 2020, at 17:38, Eli Franco <franco@uni-leipzig.de> wrote:

Dear Rupert,
Pradhan’s edition (1975, p. 126.22-23) reads:
… puṃsaḥ sataḥ pauṃsno rāga utpadyate pitari. viparyayāt pratighaḥ.

However, the lacuna is easy to reconstruct with the help of the Vyākhyā:
…puṃsaḥ sataḥ pauṃsno rāga utpadyate mātari, striyāḥ satyāḥ straiṇo rāga utpadyate pitari, viparyayāt pratighaḥ.

When the intermediary being is a male, a masculine desire for
his mother and repulsion (pratigha) for his father arise in him; when it is a
female, she has a feminine desire for her father and repulsion for her
mother.

See also my Compassion and Rebirth pp. 70-71.
With best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>:

Dear Eli,

I don’t understand why you suggest Pradhan has a lacuna here. The relevant passage is found at Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan 1967) 126, 18–24 = (Pradhan 1975) 126, 20–27.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies

University of Bristol
Department of Religion and Theology
3 Woodland Road
Bristol BS8 1TB, UK

Phone: +44 117 928 8169
Email: Rupert.Gethin@bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin@bristol.ac.uk>

On 17 Nov 2020, at 19:24, Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info<mailto:indology@list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab, but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli


Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info<mailto:indology@list.indology.info>>:

The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm

One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with rebirth as well:
https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'études, émérite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces@list.indology.info> on behalf of James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural@yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall <ty37@columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray@scu.edu>
Cc: indology@list.indology.info <indology@list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37@columbia.edu>  @David Gray<mailto:dgray@scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural@yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural@yahoo.com>> wrote:
Thanks James.

Do you happen to remember the title?

Dean


On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell <james.hartzell@gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception, and there may have been something there about a certain randomness or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info<mailto:indology@list.indology.info>> wrote:
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.

Best,

Dean

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info<mailto:indology@list.indology.info>> wrote:



Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell, I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (Āyuḥparyantasūtra)  a systematically composed description (Sanskrit-Śloka) connects specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete Āyuḥparyantasūtra. If you can read Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner


Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibhaṅga-sutta (MN III 207–15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of both the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda refers to the following categories of karman in the context of determining which of a being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (āsanna)
habitual (āciṇṇa/abhyasta)
something previously done (kaṭattākamma/pūrvakṛta)

See e.g. Vism 601–602 (XIX.14–16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477, Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ‘weighty' in this life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you haven’t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something done close to the time of death or something done habitually will tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin@bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin@bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info<mailto:indology@list.indology.info>> wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists, consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson


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James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA



--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA


--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut für Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148



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-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut für Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
Schillerstr. 6
04109 Leipzig

Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
Fax +49 341 9737 148