Dear Camillo,

> Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained 

> therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong.  

Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful.

To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence

'Sanskrit can tackle climate change' 

can meaningfully be used as phrased.

All the best,

   Antonia

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong.

Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone

---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ----

In isolation, the sentence

'Sanskrit can tackle climate change'

is like the sentence

'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics'

The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language.

In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit  (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have.

All the best,

    Antonia

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Dear Nagaraj,

 

I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel’s answer:

“What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. […] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.” [emphasis mine]

Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in “many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world”, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau’s books cannot either, because “[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect”, and not simply read Sanskrit texts.

Again, am I wrong in this interpretation?

Best wishes,

Camillo

 

---

 

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti

John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

 

Bodleian Libraries 

The Weston Library

Broad Street, Oxford

OX1 3BG

 

Email: camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk

Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk

 

GROW YOUR MIND

in Oxford University’s

Gardens, Libraries and Museums

www.mindgrowing.org

 

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>
Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23
To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Cc: Indology <INDOLOGY@list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

 

Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change.

 

can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit. 

 

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

 

Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something?

 

Best wishes,

 

Camillo

 

 

---

 

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti

John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

 

Bodleian Libraries 

The Weston Library

Broad Street, Oxford

OX1 3BG

 

Email: camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk

Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk

 

GROW YOUR MIND

in Oxford University’s

Gardens, Libraries and Museums

www.mindgrowing.org

 

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>
Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09
To: Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos@gmail.com>
Cc: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk>; Jonathan Silk <kauzeya@gmail.com>; Indology <INDOLOGY@list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

 

Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel. 

 

We have an expression in Hindi, आप मेरी मुह की बात छीन ली । You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say. 

 

You articulated it better than I would have.

 

Thanks,

 

Regards,

 

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Camillo, dear all,

 

What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate.

 

What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment. 

 

Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.

 

So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change.

 

But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things).

 

So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding.

 

All the best,

      Antonia

 

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Dear Nagaraj and colleagues,

 

I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can’t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not.

 

What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings.

 

Best wishes,

 

Cammillo

 

 

---

 

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti

John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

 

Bodleian Libraries 

The Weston Library

Broad Street, Oxford

OX1 3BG

 

Email: camillo.formigatti@bodleian.ox.ac.uk

Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk

 

GROW YOUR MIND

in Oxford University’s

Gardens, Libraries and Museums

www.mindgrowing.org

 

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>
Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04
To: Jonathan Silk <kauzeya@gmail.com>
Cc: George Thompson <gthomgt@gmail.com>; Indology <INDOLOGY@list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

 

>  I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology.

 

-- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya. 

 

Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary. 

 

Expressions such as का ते कांता?  कस्ते पुत्रः ? suit a संन्यासी, a renounced ascetic , not a संसारी  , a family person. Within the reference frame of  संसारी ,  expressions such as का ते कांता?  कस्ते पुत्रः ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests. 

 

-----------------------------

 

Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well. 

 

Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc. 

 

---------------------------------

 

Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc.  

 

But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the  repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc  is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding. 

 

------------------------------

 

Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee. 

 

-------------------------------

 

I for one, am not in a reference frame of  का ते कांता?  कस्ते पुत्रः ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose  Sanskrit, India and Indian culture  as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter. 

 

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya@gmail.com> wrote:

I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc). 

I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!)

Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all.

 

Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be,

 

Jonathan

 

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt@gmail.com> wrote:

re JOYDEEP

 

As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you.  I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology.  I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly naïve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology.  Have they read Joydeep's papers?

 

Shame on you both!  Please read some of  Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us.

 

best wishes,

 

George Thompson

 

 

 

--

J. Silk
Leiden University

Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS

Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b

2311 BZ Leiden

The Netherlands

 

copies of my publications may be found at

https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

 

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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--

Dr Antonia Ruppel
www.cambridge-sanskrit.org

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

 

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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--

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www.cambridge-sanskrit.org

--

Dr Antonia Ruppel
www.cambridge-sanskrit.org