Dear Nagaraj,

First - its really gratifying to find here someone of matching research interests. 



I don't seem to be able to find Richard Temple's "Legends" on Archive.org. 

My advanced age?

Could you, please, send me the link to the "Legends"?

You may, perhaps and hopefully, want to read my already oldish (1981) paper on "Reward and Punishment in Indian Folk-tales",

at:

https://uw.academia.edu/AKarp


Artur





2016-04-27 12:15 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl>:
If anyone would want to try out the powers of their intellect - and read my Polish rendering of the text, 

:)


here it is:

2016-04-27 12:08 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl>:
> a study by Saeed Bhutta 

English - or Urdu? Both?

If it's in English, could you, please, send me a PDF-copy?

Artur

2016-04-27 11:29 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>:
> Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?

-- Frankly, before reading your post, I did not read it. But your post inspired me to download it from the Archive.org

I read a study by Saeed Bhutta downloading from the same website.

I called it a legend as per the title given to the book.

>The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me imagine its singers (belonging to the scavengers' community) as >attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and >then using them freely in their own performances.

------ I agree with this view. My fieldworks too taught me that the romanticizations and imaginations of 'pure' folk forms and isolated existences of the folk performers without any watching / listening of the classical and other forms by them are wrong.

> I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W India's culture.

---  I agree. I collaborated in an ESRC funded research project  with Prof. Simon Charsley of Glasgow university and others with this theme of such folk performers similar to those of  Scavengers Community being 'active participants in and co-creators of' Telugu culture.

>That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. 

Epic is the genre of literary expression. Legend is that of the narrative expressed through that literary form.

Tantrik ? Is it so clear? Not sure.

> may belong to them ( tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms)

-- May or may not. I would not say for sure until and unless I find any thing like consuming the Master's flesh in either the theory or practice of tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms.

Aghoris do not go in search of their master's corpse.

At least in theory, they, in their attempt to experience 'nothing is ghora' , go in search of those materials which are considered as ghora by the general society or even by themselves before their initiation into the tradition.

In any case your attempt to understand it through such aspects as tantra matches with my point "
 to understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other components of each of the cultural complex may help.
"




On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl> wrote:
Dear Nagaraj


>> A legend. 

Definitely - more than that. 

Have you, by any chance, had an opportunity to read it?


Now, considering the milieu in which the epic (I'll insist on using this term - OK - folk epic) was created and recreated, I am more than just curious about the channels of transmission - many of the motives present in the text have their origin in the Rajput lore (which, in its turn, freely uses Sanskrit epics narrative material). 

Dhanatthar is The Healer, per se - in his earlier personification as Dhanvantari  it was he who brought out from the depths of the primeval ocean the pot with amrita,  the Nectar of Immortality. 

In our times his powers weaken, he is unable to counteract The Virulent Serpent's (Tatig Nag, epic Takshaka)  poison - and so he asks his disciples to eat the flesh of their dying Master - so that his great healing powers are not lost to humanity. 

That motif relates the epic to tantrik  traditions, in their vāmācāra forms; consuming the Master's flesh may belong to them. 

Some others have their source in folk-lore; spells found in the text belong to medicinal magic lore.

The richness of this text, of its form and of its content, makes me imagine its singers (belonging to the scavengers' community) as attentive listeners to other, more prestigious performances, spotting out the most attractive motifs/images and narrative tricks - and then using them freely in their own performances.

I think of them as active participants in and co-creators of the N-W India's culture.

In fact, their text can be easily made into a scenario for one of those C-class Hindi movies, perhaps - even a series of such movies. I, personally, would guarantee their instant popularity. 

My Polish translation of "Princess Niwal-Dai"/"Śahr Safidon ki Kahani" is ready, it's going to be published, hopefully soon, under the title "Daughter of a Thousand Serpents" ("Córka Tysiąca Wężów").

In some, again hopefully near, future, the text, together with the Astika-parvan of the Mbh., is going to be used in a planned comparative study, under the working title: "Śahr Safidon [...] and Astika-Parvan: Two Strategies for Survival". 

Best, 

from Warsaw, 

Artur
 

2016-04-27 7:16 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>:
The narrative under question is a legend. Legends are a genre of folk narratives. They differ from 'history' in having unrealistic and scientifically not verified elements. Dhanthar Baid is such a character without historical evidence. The 'visionary' (dreamlike and as such requiring symbolic interpretation , are part of legends as much as of the other genres of folk narratives.

One of the distinctions of modern studies of culture in contrast to traditional localized studies of the native cultures by the natives, is comparative study.

For such a comparison we may have to look at the motifs of cannibalism in cultures outside India. The following links provide some such information:


Sharing pdf of a dissertation and snapshots of an Encyclopedia article. 

For a comparative study of historical interpretations of cannibalism in reality, the following links may be useful:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-of-eating-corpses-as-medicine-82360284/

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/europes-hypocritical-history-of-cannibalism-42642371/?no-ist


Comparative studies may help in understanding both commonalities and distinct specifics. 

To understand each of the compared cultures in their own right, other components of each of the cultural complex may help.

-N 

On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 8:51 AM, rajam <rajam@earthlink.net> wrote:
///Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, /// 

Hmmm … this certainly is a new speculation as far as I am concerned! For me, “inoculation” is something medicinal and physical, not ritual and literary. I’d like to learn more about it. Please educate me.


///the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself.///

This statement is even more confusing. 'Dead spirit harming itself?' What does that mean? You should educate me.

++++++++++

There are quite a few references to “cannibalism” in Old Tamil (Sangam literature, Cilappatikaram, Manimekalai), Kalingathupparani, and a later hagiographic Tamil literature (Periyapuranam) perhaps depicting the later-developed kāpālika (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapalika) tradition. 

However, none of the Tamil references point to “acquiring” the other party’s (== the consumed ones’) flesh or life. And, the consumed ones were not always a king’s enemies.

I wish scholars would abstain from making sweeping statements about a foreign culture/literature. 

Thanks and regards,
rajam 


On Apr 25, 2016, at 12:46 PM, George Hart <glhart@berkeley.edu> wrote:

This may be true in some instances of cannibalism, but I don’t think it applies when someone eats the flesh of an enemy he has killed. Rather, the purpose is to inoculate the killer against the spirit of the dead person by creating a link of identity between the two, the idea being that the dead spirit would not try to harm itself. Why would you need the strength of someone you are already strong enough to kill? If that were the purpose of consuming your enemy, you might acquire the weakness he has shown by being defeated and lose the strength you already had that allowed you to prevail. In the Sangam poems, we find the ritual of the war sacrifice, in which body parts of dead enemies are ceremonially cooked (boiled), though there is no evidence that the resultant “food” was actually eaten. And in the Kaliṅkattupparaṇi, there are long descriptions of ghosts and macabre deities feasting on the war dead. George

On Apr 25, 2016, at 11:54 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com> wrote:

“The meaning of cannibalism is that , by consuming your enemy , you inherit his powers. In “The Story of the Grandmother” , a folk version of “Little Red Riding Hood” the girl eats his grandmother’s flesh and drinks her blood, which has an ambiguous purpose; she is accused of cannibalism, but a deeper implication is that she acquires the wisdom of the progenitrix which helps her trick the wolf/werewolf. This notion of ingesting the older often took the form of ritual meals. To eat a symbolical figure signified receiving magical power.”

----- Folktales and Fairy Tales: Traditions and Texts from around the World

By Donald Haase Ph.D., Anne E. Duggan Ph.D., pp 364-365


On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:51 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com> wrote:
Prof. Karp,

You must be aware of these words from the Bible. “You Must Eat My Flesh” I found a discussion here:

There are huge number of pages discussing these biblical words.

What struck me is, Jesus the Guru figure asks to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

There seems to be some esoteric or mystic similarity between the two expressions.

Regards,

-N 

On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural@yahoo.com>
To: Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl>
Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004@gmail.com>, indology <indology@list.indology.info>
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:02:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer
The principle is basically the same - there is a special power in the remains of those considered to be spiritually advanced. Compare European saintly relics.

Grisly, indeed.

Dean



From: Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl>
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural@yahoo.com>
Cc: Dipak Bhattacharya <dipak.d2004@gmail.com>; indology <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Eating flesh of a jogi, a magician, a healer

In Śahr Safidon ki Kahani it is the guru (Dhanthar Baid, Mbh.'s Dhanvantari) who orders his disciples to cut and and eat his body - so that his healing powers would not be lost.

Best, also - 

Artur

2016-04-25 18:35 GMT+02:00 Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural@yahoo.com>:
The place to look would be the texts and tales of "left-handed" tantra. I'm not familiar with the older texts but I do know that in places with famous burning grounds like Varanasi and Kathmandu the families guard the bodies to prevent tantriks from eating the flesh of the deceased. I have read about this in modern stories, and talked to people who have seen it. It is certainly very much still alive in the minds of modern Indians and Nepalis.

Best,

Dean Anderson


On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl> wrote:
In "Śahr Safidon ki kahani" (published by Richard Temple, The Legends of the Panjab , Vol. I (No XVI,
​ 
Princess Niwal Daî, As su
​n
g
​b
y t
​wo
 s
​c
a
​v
e
​n
gers
​f​
ro
m 
Bi
​b
iyâl
​V
illage
​n
ear A
​mb
âlâ),
​ 
Bombay 1884 [Reprints: 1962, 1977] -

his disciples eat flesh of their Guru, Dhanthar Baid - in order to gain his powers  Is this motif found somewhere else in Indian narratives?

Thanks in advance, 

Artur Karp

Warsaw
Poland

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)









--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
 
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
 
 
 



--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
 
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
 
 
 
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
 
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
 
 
 

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
indology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




--
Nagaraj Paturi
 
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
 
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
 
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
 
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )