Sorry, in the post below, 'dock rock' should really be 'dark rock'.

Regards,
Palaniappan


-----Original Message-----
From: palaniappa <palaniappa@aol.com>
To: H.J.H.Tieken <H.J.H.Tieken@hum.leidenuniv.nl>; indology <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 1:13 pm
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106

Dear Dr. Tieken,

In Puṟam 191, the question is how come the poet has no gray hair in spite of being many years old. The answer should really address the past. It is because of the past good behavior of his family members and servants that he does not have gray hair today. That is why he uses the past forms in māṇt-, nirampi-, and kaṇṭ-. But the past behavior of people involved continues in the present too. This is what the poet chose to show in the case of the king kākkum. Grammatically, the servants were of the same nature the poet has intended all these years. 

maṇantaṉaiyam means literally 'we are of the same nature (the hero) united.' That we are talking about an adjectival participial construction can be seen in pulakkum aṉaiyēm in Kuṟuntokai 164.5-6. That is why Eva is right. 

Coming to the roots of iṟṟi looking like a waterfall, I have attached a picture showing a miniature version of what Kapilar might have seen. The Ficus variety is possibly different but the behavior of the roots seen here clearly show what we are talking about. If one focuses on the roots and rock, they just look like a white waterfall on a dock rock. The roots of the tree are behaving just like a creeper. They attach themselves to the rock and spread. The roots grab the rock surface and also get into any crevices and ridges. That is why they follow the horizontal line between stones in the photo I sent yesterday. With such a creeper-like behavior, I do not know how anybody steeped in Tamil culture can think of the roots of iṟṟi with the hero. Even a lay Tamil just listening to film songs will associate a creeper with a female as in the film song below. 
That Cōmacuntaraṉār, in spite of his own description of iṟṟi as attaching and spreading which is clearly the nature of creepers, associated the roots with the hero shows the cascading (:-)) consequences of interpreting ney as ghee.

If a big tree has to survive on a rock, one can only imagine how strongly  the roots should be attached to the rock. That is the whole point Kapilar is making. The heroine has already made love to the hero and has united in love with him like the roots of iṟṟi attached to the rock.

Kapilar's knowledge of the mountainous landscape and his skill in weaving this multi-layerd picture are simply amazing! In my opinion, Eva got the essence of the poem right, Comacuntaraṉār missed the mark.

Regards,
Palaniappan

-----Original Message-----
From: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
To: palaniappa <palaniappa@aol.com>; indology <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Sun, Feb 23, 2014 5:42 am
Subject: RE: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106

Dear Dr Palaniappan,
Thank you for the other instances of the construction. Especially Puṟanāṉūṟu 191, line 4 is interesting: yāṉ kaṇṭaṉaiyar eṉṉ il̥aiyar, literally, “My kumāras see what I see” (in Hart's translation: “My servants do what I wish”). Here there is a change of subject between the respective clauses: I see, they (act) like that”. This offers an explanation for tām in tām maṇantaṉaiyam: “To enjoy a more intense love-making they (tām) first reject the lover. We women operate in that way.”
By the way, I fail to see why maṇantaṉaiyam should be analyzed as maṇanta (an adjectival participle) plus aṉaiyam, as suggested by Eva Wilden.
If you don't mind, I stick to my interpretation of the phrase “'receiving' a person like fire into which ghee/oil is poured”.
Herman


Herman Tieken
University of Leiden
The Netherlands
Van: palaniappa@aol.com [palaniappa@aol.com]
Verzonden: zaterdag 22 februari 2014 23:34
To: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology@list.indology.info
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106

Dear Herman,

maṇantaṉaiyam < maṇanta + aṉaiyam

Compare 
yāṉ kaṇṭaṉaiyar in Puṟ. 191.4
cūr nacaintaṉaiyāy in Kuṟ. 52.2

The meaning of etirkoḷ is the opposite of what you have indicated. See Tamil Lexicon entry below.

எதிர்கொள்(ளு)-தல் etir-koḷ-
, v. tr. < எதிர்³ +. [T. edurkonu.] 1. To advance or go towards a guest or great person to meet, welcome and receive him; வரவேற்றல். வேனில் விழவெதிர்கொள்ளும் (கலித். 36). 2. To accept; ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளுதல். எஞ்சொ லெதிர்கொண்டு (பு. வெ. 9, 32).

The scenario you envisage will not apply here.

Regards,
Palaniappan


-----Original Message-----
From: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
To: indology <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Sat, Feb 22, 2014 2:18 pm
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Kuruntokai 106

I had another look at Kuṟuntokai 106, discussed earlier by Palaniappan and Hart:

…
tīti ṉeñcattuk kil̥avi namvayiṉ
vantaṉṟu vāḻi tōḻi nāmu
neypey tīyiṉ etirkoṇṭu
tām(/tāṉ/taṉ) maṇantaṉaiyam eṉa viṭukan tūtē.

As I see it, the real problem of the poem consists of the construction of two verbal participles, or absolutives, etirkoṇṭu and maṇantu, followed by aṉaiyam “we are like that”. The construction is rare but I found one other instance in Naṟṟiṇai 179, lines 6-7 (vīṅkuvaṉal̥ vimmi nerunalum aṉaiyal̥) about a spoilt girl who refuses to drink the sweet milk her mother gave her, sobbing (vimmi, a verbal participle) and clamouring for more extravagant sweets (vīṅkuvaṉal̥, a participial noun). Only yesterday the girl behaved like that (aṉaiyal̥) but just now she ran away with a unknown – and poor – fellow. No more sweet milk for her!
If this is how the construction works, the situation underlying our Kuṟuntokai poems may be described in the following way. The woman speaking had sulked, her lover had fled away and sent a messenger telling that he does not understand why she was angry at him. She replies that sulking is just part of the play: making love (maṇantu) after a quarrel (opposing the lover's avances, etirkoṇṭu, flaring up like fire into which ghee/oil is poured) is special. Compare Sattasaī 522 in the translation by Peter Khoroche and me (Poems of Life and Love in Ancient India. Hāla's Sattasaī, p. 115): “After every quarrel, it's true/The pleasures of love taste new.

Herman

Herman Tieken
University of Leiden
The Netherlands
 
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