For the RV asi meaning "short sword" and not black(zyaama),

the words in old Tamil may be relevant:

ay, ayil = 'iron, spear, ...'

Ay = 'sharp, fine, ...

Following Dr. S. Palaniappan's discussion with the title

"Stomach/womb in Dravidian and -y-/-c- alternation",

and comparing with kalaya > kalasa > kalaza,

then, tamil ay, ayil, aay etc. appear related to the

RV asi.

<<<

If RV asi and Latin ensis are understood as words etymologically

related to a word for black, hence as made from iron, these weapons

would have been made from iron in Indo-European times . . .

In the light of the supposed IE connection -- which seems not

unlikely, though the relation with a word for "black" is in my view

just possible -- the absence of the word in the older RV ma.n.dalas

cannot mean that it did not exist.

Moreover, Thieme did not say asi = ensis, but rather asi : asita is

like hari : harita and like rohi : rohita. A parallel development

from "the black one" to the iron sword would have taken place in

Latin. (The highly specified meaning of the product of this

development should lead us to caution.) Moreover, as Thieme said in

a footnote in his 1958 article: "Every linguist who has tried to

draw a coherent picture of Proto-Inodeuropean culture on

the basis of reconstructable vocabulary has found this 'sword' an

unpleasant anachronism and has tried to get rid of it by replacing

it with a stone . . . "

Finally, overconfident etymologist sometimes forget that *verba

valent usu* and *yogaad ruudhir baliiyasii*: there is no indication

that the users of these terms were aware of a connotation "black"

with the word asi (see the few places in RV) or ensis (acc. to what

I find in my Latin dictionary): it means a short sword for chopping

rather than jabbing, and in the RV esp. a sword/knife for cutting up

the sacrificial victim. AV(Z) 9.5.4 where asi and zyaama are

explicitly juxtaposed could be seen as an indication that only at

that time it became interesting to do so, in other words that asi

was (formerly) not always/necessarily zyaama.

Best wishes, Jan Houben

Michael Witzel wrote:

The RV matter is of course based on the (always weak) argumentum ex

nihilo. It is complicated /enhanced by the fact that RV asi 'sword'

= Latin ensis 'sword'; both per Thieme 1958 from 'black' (metal),

see Mayrhofer, Etym Dict. 1986- , vol.II 154.

And asi first occurs first in the late RV books 1 and 10. In short,

if correct, the late RV may have the first occurence of iron.

Which brings its late stratum (before collection, "samhita", as

distinct from te much later redaction) down, close to 1000 BCE

(instead of 1200 BCE) --- of course always per present archaeology,

(and that many change again).

Importantly, in the immediate post-RV Samhitas (AV, YV) iron is

firmly established as 'black metal'. They overlap nicely, in time

and geographical extent, with the Painted Gray Ware culture of

Haryana, UP, Chambal area, see MW, Tracing the Vedic dialects. In:

C. Caillat (ed.), Dialectes dans les litteratures indo-aryennes.

Paris : 1989, 97-264

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