[INDOLOGY] Fwd: AW: Re: Question on amākṣika madhu in MBh 5.62.23

[KORN Agnes]

I think this was meant for the list.
Best, a.


-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet : 	AW: Re: [INDOLOGY] Question on amākṣika madhu in MBh 5.62.23
Date : 	Fri, 18 Sep 2026 10:12:22 +0000
De : 	Martin Straube <kosakara at pm.me>
Pour : 	KORN Agnes <agnes.korn at cnrs.fr>


Dera Patrick,

the fact that the honey already was in a pot, says not much about 
whether it was free of bees or not. In ancient India honey was not 
attained by harvesting it from cultivated bees, but by hunting it from 
wild bees, which often entailed violently decimating or even destroying 
the bee swarm. On honey hunting see, e.g., 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_hunting. It is not without reason that a 
honey hunter was called madhughātaka or madhuhan in Sanskrit and Pali. 
The honey collected in this way contained dead bees, bee larvae, and 
other impurities. Moreover, honey was often selled on the market in form 
of complete combs. So, raw honey or honey combs contained dead bees (and 
other impurities), while purified honey did not. Therefore amakṣika 
amounts to mean "pure, of a high quality". Cf., e.g., Jataka V 367,18: 
[rasalolo andho] samakkhikam pi amakkhikam pi āmisaṃ ādiyati; 
Samantapāsādikā I 182,18: anīḷakan ti nimmakkhikaṃ nimmakkhikaṇḍakaṃ 
parisuddhaṃ. etaṃ kira madhuṃ sabbamadhūhi aggañ ca seṭṭhañ ca surasañ 
ca ojavantañ ca.

As for the Agañña-sutta, it was translated and studied by Steven Collins 
in Journal oflndian Philosophy 21, 1993, pp. 301-393 (Errata in Journal 
of Indian Philosophy 22, 1994, p. 197).

Best wishes
Martin


KORN Agnes via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> schrieb am 
Freitag, 18. September 2026 um 11:04:

> Dear all,
>
> I've heard of the project in Thailand, to the extent, that FAN 
> Jingjing (department of South Asian Studies of Peking University), who 
> will come to Paris hopefully at the end of this month or so, is one of 
> the people working on it. So it does seem seem serious.
>
> Best,
> Agnes
>
>
> De: "Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY" <indology at list.indology.info>
> À: "Dan Lusthaus" <yogacara at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Indology" <indology at list.indology.info>
> Envoyé: Vendredi 18 Septembre 2026 10:22:49
> Objet: Re: [INDOLOGY]  Question on amākṣika madhu in MBh 5.62.23
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> Not to hijack the thread but your comment about the Rhys-Davids 
> translations being a century old bring to mind a news blurb I recently 
> read about a new Tripiṭaka translation coming out of Thailand:
> https://www.khaosodenglish.com/featured/2026/09/12/thailand-moves-ahead-with-45-volume-english-tipitaka-project/ 
>
> (I know nothing about this venture beyond the above article)
>
> Friendly greetings,
> Charles
>
> Prof. Dr. Charles DiSimone
> Associate Professor of Buddhist Studies & Indology
> Department of Languages and Cultures
> Ghent University
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2026 at 5:34 AM Dan Lusthaus via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> > > You may want to look at the Agañña sutta, #27 in the Dīgha Nikāya. 
> That sutta contains a cosmogonic myth about how rarified beings early 
> in the world cycle became increasingly cruder, starting with the 
> flowing essence of earth gelling into something like the skin that 
> forms on milk when on is cooking it. It is the color of ghee or butter 
> and sweet like the honey that bees make. But it is not made by bees. 
> When they eat and enjoy it, their bodies and habit become more course 
> and their life spans shorten. The vocabulary is not the same as the 
> Mahābhāratā passage, but the idea is.
> > The Pāli text can be read online here: 
> https://suttacentral.net/dn27/pli/ms
> > > The T.W. Rhys-Davids translation (roughly a century old now) is 
> online here https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/tw-caf_rhysdavids
> > > Good luck,
> > Dan
> > > > On Sep 16, 2026, at 11:27 AM, Martin Straube via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> > > > Dear Patrick,
> > > > > One meight assume that it means "free from bees", "not 
> contaminated with (dead) bees"; cf. Skt. nirmakṣika 
> (https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de). However, In this case one would rather 
> expect amakṣika. Did you check the critical edition of the Mbh?
> > > > > Best wishes
> > > Martin Straube
> > > > > > > patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info> schrieb am Mittwoch, 16. September 2026 
> um 08:44:
> > > > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > > > > I'm curious about amākṣika in the following passage of the 
> Mahābhārata:
> > > > > > > > vayaṃ kirātaiḥ sahitā gacchāmo girim uttaram
> > > > > brāhmaṇair devakalpaiś ca vidyājambhakavātikaiḥ
> > > > > > > > > kuñjabhūtaṃ giriṃ sarvam abhito gandhamādanam
> > > > > dīpyamānauṣadhigaṇaṃ siddhagandharvasevitam
> > > > > > > > > tatra paśyāmahe sarve madhu pītam amākṣikam
> > > > > maruprapāte viṣame niviṣṭaṃ kumbhasaṃmitam
> > > > > > > > > āśīviṣair rakṣyamāṇaṃ kuberadayitaṃ bhṛśam
> > > > > yat prāśya puruṣo martyo 'maratvaṃ nigacchati
> > > > > > > > > acakṣur labhate cakṣur vṛddho bhavati vai yuvā
> > > > > iti te kathayanti sma brāhmaṇā jambhasādhakāḥ.
> > > > > > > The usual interpretation seems to be a-mākṣika “not 
> bee-derived,” but I am wondering whether there is more to the 
> terminology. Madhu has a much wider semantic range than simply 
> “honey,” including Soma, sweet/intoxicating liquids, nectar, etc.; 
> moreover, the passage places the madhu immediately after a description 
> of medicinal plants and has it guarded by venomous snakes before 
> attributing to it rejuvenating and immortalizing powers.
> > > > > > > There are also parallel passages:
> > > > > > > > amākṣikaṃ mahāvīryaṃ puṭake puṭake madhu
> > > > > Kūrmapurāṇa 1.27.33; Liṅgapurāṇa 1.39.28
> > > > > > > and:
> > > > > > > > vṛkṣāṃs tān paryagṛhṇanta madhu cāmākṣikaṃ balāt
> > > > > Kūrmapurāṇa 1.27.35
> > > > > > > Could amākṣika have a technical/material sense beyond 
> “non-bee honey”? I am particularly interested in whether there are 
> relevant commentarial, lexical, medical, or śleṣa/saṃdhyābhāṣā 
> interpretations.
> > > > > > > All the best,
> > > > Patrick McCartney, PhD
> > > > Hiroshima, Japan





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