[INDOLOGY] Mleccha

Thu Aug 27 22:15:59 UTC 2026

Dear Hans,

That is conceivable, but I don't see how that could erase the explicitly
western localization of Bhagadatta at MBh 2.13.13 (*muraṃ ca narakaṃ caiva
śāsti yo yavanādhipau / aparyantabalo rājā pratīcyāṃ varuṇo yathā //* MBh
2.13.13). I spoke up, to begin with, after reading Dr. Rosati's post
assigning Prāgjyotiṣa to the east alone. Perhaps someone has previously
presented the evidence showing Prāgjyotiṣa to be exclusively, or
prevailingly, a reference to the East after a certain point in time, post
Kalhaṇa clearly, (maybe those cited by Dr. Rosati do that). I am not saying
I doubt the observation of Kartunnen I quoted yesterday, but it implies an
assertion of negative fact. I am not going to do it anytime soon, but a
close look at any and all "Additional Passages" in the CE of the MBh that
deal with Bhagadatta might shed some light on the question. It would also
be worthwhile to check on what different vernacular versions of the epic
say about him and Prāgjyotiṣa.

Of course, to return to the initial issue, people on either the western or
eastern frontier were probably perceived as "speaking incorrectly." That
issue has been aired  for the northwest at some length on this forum a time
or two, years back.

All the best, Jim Fitzgerald

On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 12:03 PM Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
wrote:

> Dear James,
>
> Another possibility would be that the *prāg* in *prājyotiṣa* was
> reinterpreted as referring to an eastern region.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Hans Henrich
>
>
> On Aug 26, 2026, at 17:03, Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Walter (if I may),
>
> Clearly there were at least two important locales called Prāgjyotiṣa; as
> you suggest, the name does not exclude western locations. If, to extend
> some of your analysis of the name, it might have been understood as “Early,
> or Earliest, Light,” then any location at a relatively higher elevation
> than its neighbors would be a place receiving the light of the rising sun
> before (*prāk*) the surrounding area, and therefore suitable for that
> name.
>
> It might be the saga of Bhagadatta and his elephants that fixes the
> priority of the eastern Prāgjyotiṣa in the memory of the tradition. My copy
> of Thomas Trautmann’s book *Elephants and Kings* is in storage at the
> moment, but if I remember correctly, he noted a pronounced eastern
> association with the training and use of elephants. I’ll have to go
> retrieve the book when I get the spare time.
>
> With all best wishes, Jim Fitzgerald
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 3:24 PM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Professor Fitzgerald,
>>
>> Due to my lack of expertise in the epic-Purāṇic tradition, I am unable to
>> engage in any serious speculation. However, off the top of my head, I can
>> think of one possible explanation for how such confusion might have arisen
>> in the said tradition: the original existence of two places with the same
>> name, Prāgjyotiṣa, in the east and west. The confusion of the western city
>> name with the eastern one, and its subsequent assignment to the latter, may
>> have arisen for a reason rooted in the meaning of * prāgjyotiṣa*.
>>
>> If the compound were understood literally as 'light *in* the East', it
>> would naturally be associated with a region in the East. This would also
>> have confirmed the eastern location of Prāgjyotiṣa for those who
>> interpreted it in this way.
>>
>> Similarly, it cannot be ruled out that the city of Prāgjyotiṣa, situated
>> in the west, was named precisely because the compound could be understood
>> as 'illuminated *from* the east' (*prāgjyotiṣa*), as confirmed by our
>> dictionaries. That which is illuminated from the east lies in the west.
>> Given the toponymic coincidence of the two Prāgjyotiṣas, the transfer of
>> the name from west to east - prompted by the rather obvious locative
>> karmadhāraya "in the east" - may additionally have become established and
>> consolidated through legends, resulting in the gradual fading of the
>> western Prāgjyotiṣa from people's consciousness.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Walter Slaje
>>
>> Am Mi., 26. Aug. 2026 um 19:22 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James <
>> james_fitzgerald at brown.edu>:
>>
>>> Dear Professor Slaje,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this interesting collation. When one reads it and looks
>>> too at the assemblage of evidence in Kartunnen’s *Yonas and Yavanas in
>>> Indian Literature*, and at E. H. Johnston’s review of Tarn’s first
>>> edition of *Greeks in Bactria and India* (“Demetrias in Sind?” JRAS,
>>> 1939, 217–240) (I am not able to read Rönnow’s “Kirāta” from 1936 [*Le
>>> Monde oriental*, 30, 90–170], to which Kartunnen referred), one wonders
>>> how the western localizaton of Prāgjyotiṣa came to be so thoroughly
>>> forgotten (completely absent, I believe, from Schwatzberg’s *Historical
>>> Atlas*, which gives only the eastern location).
>>>
>>> I wonder how it came about that, as Kartunnen, 347, note 167, observed:
>>> “Later on, Prāgjyotiṣa came to be more or less synonymous with Assam, and
>>> Assamese inscriptions count Bhagadatta among the royal ancestors, as was
>>> shown by Jenkins as early as 1840.” It seems that somehow MBh 5.4.11d’s
>>> description of Bhagadatta as *pūrvasāgaravāsin* outweighed MBh
>>> 2.13.13cd’s description of him as *aparyantabalo rājā pratīcyāṃ varuṇo
>>> yathā* (with no variants recorded; but note that for 5.4.11d, 3 of the
>>> Malayālam mss. lack this reading in pāda d altogether [M2 has it] and one,
>>> M1, has it as a supralineal addition; M1.3.4.5 substitute the names of
>>> Hārdikya and Āhuka, drawn from the upcoming 12b [where M3-5 substitute the
>>> names Kātha [?] and Śaka] for the moved Hārdikya and Āhuka). As Kartunnen
>>> (idem) notes apropos MBh 5.4.11d: “But Assam is not by the sea.” If 5.4.11d
>>> did actually refer to Assam, “*pūrvasāgara*” might describe the
>>> Brahmaputra River.
>>>
>>> I don't have any answer for my question, just puzzlement.
>>>
>>> Regards, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 7:39 AM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would like to draw your attention to another source that has been
>>>> neglected so far, in my perception. It corroborates Karttunen’s argument
>>>> (2015: 37, note 166) that Prāgjyotiṣa should rather be located in the
>>>> north-west. The instances from Kalhaṇa quoted below suggest that he and his
>>>> fellow citizens believed the epic Prāgjyotiṣa to be set in the north.
>>>> However, it is possible that Kalhaṇa was even aware of a city with that
>>>> name in that region.
>>>> [The translations are Stein’s with occasional supplements]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *RT 2.147*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *jugopa Gopādityākhyaṃ Kaśmīrendrajigīṣayā |*
>>>> *Yudhiṣṭhiraprapautraṃ hi Gāndhārādhipatis tadā* || 2.145 ||
>>>> „The king of *Gandhāra *guarded indeed at that time a great-grandson
>>>> of * Yudhiṣṭhira* [I.]*, *called *Gopāditya, *with a view to
>>>> vanquishing the king of *Kaśmīr*.“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *vasann aprāptasāmrājyaḥ sa tatra tanayaṃ kramāt |*
>>>> *avāpa […] amoghaṃ Meghavāhanam* || 2.146 ||
>>>> „While residing there [in Gandhāra] without obtaining sovereignty [over
>>>> *Kaśmīr*] this [prince* Gopāditya*] begot in due course a son, *Meghavāhana
>>>> *by name, […].“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *sa yuvā **pitur ādeśād vaiṣṇavānvayajanmanaḥ |*
>>>> *rāṣṭraṃ Prāgjyotiṣendrasya yayau kanyāsvayaṃvare* || 2.147 ||
>>>> yuvā Hultzsch 1915/2013; VB] *tatra* Stein
>>>> „By the advice of his father [Gopāditya], that youth [*Meghavāhana*]
>>>> went to the realm of the king of *Prāgjyotiṣa *who was descended from
>>>> the race of Viṣṇu, for the Svayaṃvara of [that king’s] daughter.“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *RT 4.171*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *sa prāviśat suvistīrṇam apathenOttarāpatham* || 4.163cd ||
>>>> „[King Lalitāditya] entered by pathless tracks the far-spreading
>>>> northern region (*uttarāpatha*).“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> … Kāmbojas (165), Tuḥkharas (166), Bhauṭṭas (168), Darads (169). The
>>>> wind of the northern region (*uttarānila*) (170) …
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *śūnye Prāgjyotiṣapure nirjihānaṃ dadarśa saḥ* |
>>>> *dhūpadhūmaṃ* […] || 4.171a–c ||
>>>> "As the town of *Prāgjyotiṣa *was deserted, he saw the smoke of
>>>> incense […]"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *marīcikāvitīrṇārṇovibhrame bālukāmbudhau* || 4.172ab ||
>>>> "In the ‘sea of sand’ (*vālukāmbudhi*), where the mirage produced the
>>>> illusion of a stream, […]"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note by Stein: „[…] For *Prāgjyotiṣa, *see note ii.147. The ‘sea of
>>>> sand’ *(vālukāmbudhi) *mentioned in verse iv.172, and again in the
>>>> story related iv.279 sqq., is distinctly placed in the north (see iv. 306),
>>>> and seems to imply a distant knowledge of the desert tracts of Eastern
>>>> Turkestan and Tibet.“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *RT 8.2811*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The entire scene is set exclusively in northern Kashmir, on the border
>>>> with the land of the Dards. The Dards join forces with rebellious barons
>>>> from the Kashmir Valley and, with the support of Central Asian Muslims, go
>>>> to war with King Jayasiṃha with the aim of overthrowing him and installing
>>>> Bhoja as king.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *prasthitas tatpramāthāya Śamālais so ’nvabadhyata* |
>>>> *vrajan Prāgjyotiṣaṃ hantum Pārthas saṃśaptakair iva* || 8.2811 ||
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When this [minister of the king, Rilhaṇa,] had set out to destroy
>>>> [Loṭhaka of the rebels], he was pursued on the march by the inhabitants of *Śamālā
>>>> *as Pārtha [had been] by the confederates when he went to slay the
>>>> king of Prāgjyotiṣa.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note by Stein: „The story of Arjuna’s fight with the ‘confederates’ *(saṃśaptaka)
>>>> *is found in *Mahābh. *vii., xxvii.1 sqq.“
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Given the context, it seems rather unlikely that Kalhaṇa would have
>>>> chosen this comparison with Prāgjyotiṣa from the epic if he and his
>>>> contemporary audience had not situated that city mentioned in the MBh in
>>>> the wider northern area, as the battles they witnessed actually took place
>>>> in northern Kashmir.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards, WS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am Di., 25. Aug. 2026 um 22:13 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James via
>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Madhav,
>>>>>
>>>>> I wouldn't want to hazard any conjectures about who exactly Naraka and
>>>>> Mura might have been among the foreign rulers in the northwest. Perhaps
>>>>> some historians have some ideas or other pertinent evidence. Were the
>>>>> Kushanas ever styled as "yavana", in coins, inscriptions, or Puranic
>>>>> histories?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 2:06 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Jim,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      This is eye-opening to me. I was not aware of the Western
>>>>>> Pragjyotisha, and the identification of Naraka with the Greeks. Does this
>>>>>> in some way help dating of these passages, if not of the composition of the
>>>>>> epic itself?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>>>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>>>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>>>>>> India
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 10:10 AM Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is pertinent to this discussion that there seems to have been a
>>>>>>> western locus of Prāgjyotiṣa as well as an eastern one. It is mentioned in
>>>>>>> a portion of Nārāyaṇa's prophecy of future interventions in the terrestrial
>>>>>>> world at MBh 12.326.82-85, which episodes have associations with western
>>>>>>> India.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I quote: “At the final juncture of the Dvāpara and Kali Ages, there
>>>>>>> will be an appearance of me in Mathurā because of Kaṃsa. [82] Having killed
>>>>>>> a large number of Dānavas then, who were thorns to the Gods, I shall
>>>>>>> make Kuśasthalī, which is the city Dvārakā, my dwelling. [83] Dwelling
>>>>>>> in that city, I shall kill that annoyer of Aditi Naraka, son of
>>>>>>> Earth, and Mura and the Dānava Pīṭha.[84] Having killed the preeminent
>>>>>>> Dānavas, I shall lead the delightful city of Prāgjyotiṣa, which
>>>>>>> possesses prolific riches, to Kuśasthalī. [85]"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In an endnote to Kuśasthalī, I write: "326.85. Prāgjyotiṣa was the
>>>>>>> capital city of the Asura Naraka and the locus of Kṛṣṇa’s killing him (HV
>>>>>>> 91.53–57). His “leading” Prāgjyotiṣa to Kuśasthalī likely refers to what is
>>>>>>> described at HV 97.1: “The road to the town of Prāgjyotisha has been made
>>>>>>> safe once again” (trans. Brodbeck). This entire HV śloka is identical to
>>>>>>> MBh 3.13.26, though the context in the MBh is one of listing great deeds of
>>>>>>> Kṛṣṇa. MBh 2.13.13 identifies Naraka (and Mura as well) as Greek
>>>>>>> rulers (yavanādhipau) who were under the rule of Bhagadatta, “a king of
>>>>>>> unlimited power, who ruled in the West like Varuṇa.” It seems
>>>>>>> unlikely that Naraka’s Prāgjyotiṣa is the same as the Prāgjyotiṣa in the
>>>>>>> far northeast of the subcontinent, in modern day Assam, which is
>>>>>>> generally considered to be where the Prāgjyotiṣa governed by the
>>>>>>> elephant-riding Bhagadatta was located. Bhagadatta is described at MBh
>>>>>>> 5.4.11d as “dwelling by the eastern ocean.” At the same time, it was in the
>>>>>>> far north that Arjuna encountered and subdued Bhagadatta in the digvijaya
>>>>>>> of Yudhiṣṭhira’s Rājasūya, 2.23.13–26. It would seem that in
>>>>>>> addition to the far eastern Prāgjyotiṣa, there was another one, the “home
>>>>>>> of the western Asuras” (Hopkins, Epic Mythology, 257; see too 50–51), and
>>>>>>> that Bhagadatta came somehow to be identified with both."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 8:55 AM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Patrick,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As usual, M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Worterbuch des
>>>>>>>> Altindoarischen, is an indispensable source for linguistic matters (see
>>>>>>>> vol. II, p. 389). Indian primary sources regarding mlecchas and other
>>>>>>>> foreigners have been exhaustively compiled and discussed in K. Karttunen,
>>>>>>>> Yonas And Yavanas In Indian Literature, Helsinki 2015 [= Studia Orientalia,
>>>>>>>> 116]. Check the index and the searchable file which can be downloaded from
>>>>>>>> here: https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184
>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184__;!!DZ3fjg!9KKYDiWwIeVFd93GqhDLvT1y__idfTZksDVyXx0VY1X3mD5sLL-Lx5Ba50F-VlLvI8A0T7qLonZtp79nBTo8suyvAqpS$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>> Martin Straube
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>>> schrieb am Montag, 24. August 2026 um 14:31:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Dear All:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > A colleague in India who is not a member of this list asked me
>>>>>>>> for secondary works, as well as primary sources, for the concept of
>>>>>>>> “mleccha” in ancient India. The work by Parasher-Sen is well known. But are
>>>>>>>> there others? With thanks and best wishes,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Patrick
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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