[INDOLOGY] Mleccha

Wed Aug 26 17:22:26 UTC 2026

Dear Professor Slaje,

Thank you for this interesting collation. When one reads it and looks too
at the assemblage of evidence in Kartunnen’s *Yonas and Yavanas in Indian
Literature*, and at E. H. Johnston’s review of Tarn’s first edition of *Greeks
in Bactria and India* (“Demetrias in Sind?” JRAS, 1939, 217–240) (I am not
able to read Rönnow’s “Kirāta” from 1936 [*Le Monde oriental*, 30, 90–170],
to which Kartunnen referred), one wonders how the western localizaton of
Prāgjyotiṣa came to be so thoroughly forgotten (completely absent, I
believe, from Schwatzberg’s *Historical Atlas*, which gives only the
eastern location).

I wonder how it came about that, as Kartunnen, 347, note 167, observed:
“Later on, Prāgjyotiṣa came to be more or less synonymous with Assam, and
Assamese inscriptions count Bhagadatta among the royal ancestors, as was
shown by Jenkins as early as 1840.” It seems that somehow MBh 5.4.11d’s
description of Bhagadatta as *pūrvasāgaravāsin* outweighed MBh 2.13.13cd’s
description of him as *aparyantabalo rājā pratīcyāṃ varuṇo yathā* (with no
variants recorded; but note that for 5.4.11d, 3 of the Malayālam mss. lack
this reading in pāda d altogether [M2 has it] and one, M1, has it as a
supralineal addition; M1.3.4.5 substitute the names of Hārdikya and Āhuka,
drawn from the upcoming 12b [where M3-5 substitute the names Kātha [?] and
Śaka] for the moved Hārdikya and Āhuka). As Kartunnen (idem) notes apropos
MBh 5.4.11d: “But Assam is not by the sea.” If 5.4.11d did actually refer
to Assam, “*pūrvasāgara*” might describe the Brahmaputra River.

I don't have any answer for my question, just puzzlement.

Regards, Jim Fitzgerald

On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 7:39 AM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:

> I would like to draw your attention to another source that has been
> neglected so far, in my perception. It corroborates Karttunen’s argument
> (2015: 37, note 166) that Prāgjyotiṣa should rather be located in the
> north-west. The instances from Kalhaṇa quoted below suggest that he and his
> fellow citizens believed the epic Prāgjyotiṣa to be set in the north.
> However, it is possible that Kalhaṇa was even aware of a city with that
> name in that region.
>
> [The translations are Stein’s with occasional supplements]
>
>
>
> *RT 2.147*
>
>
>
> *jugopa Gopādityākhyaṃ Kaśmīrendrajigīṣayā |*
>
> *Yudhiṣṭhiraprapautraṃ hi Gāndhārādhipatis tadā* || 2.145 ||
>
> „The king of *Gandhāra *guarded indeed at that time a great-grandson of
> *Yudhiṣṭhira* [I.]*, *called *Gopāditya, *with a view to vanquishing the
> king of *Kaśmīr*.“
>
>
>
> *vasann aprāptasāmrājyaḥ sa tatra tanayaṃ kramāt |*
>
> *avāpa […] amoghaṃ Meghavāhanam* || 2.146 ||
>
> „While residing there [in Gandhāra] without obtaining sovereignty [over
> *Kaśmīr*] this [prince* Gopāditya*] begot in due course a son, *Meghavāhana
> *by name, […].“
>
>
>
> *sa yuvā **pitur ādeśād vaiṣṇavānvayajanmanaḥ |*
>
> *rāṣṭraṃ Prāgjyotiṣendrasya yayau kanyāsvayaṃvare* || 2.147 ||
>
> yuvā Hultzsch 1915/2013; VB] *tatra* Stein
>
> „By the advice of his father [Gopāditya], that youth [*Meghavāhana*] went
> to the realm of the king of *Prāgjyotiṣa *who was descended from the race
> of Viṣṇu, for the Svayaṃvara of [that king’s] daughter.“
>
>
>
>
> *RT 4.171*
>
>
>
> *sa prāviśat suvistīrṇam apathenOttarāpatham* || 4.163cd ||
>
> „[King Lalitāditya] entered by pathless tracks the far-spreading northern
> region (*uttarāpatha*).“
>
>
>
> … Kāmbojas (165), Tuḥkharas (166), Bhauṭṭas (168), Darads (169). The wind
> of the northern region (*uttarānila*) (170) …
>
>
>
> *śūnye Prāgjyotiṣapure nirjihānaṃ dadarśa saḥ* |
>
> *dhūpadhūmaṃ* […] || 4.171a–c ||
>
> "As the town of *Prāgjyotiṣa *was deserted, he saw the smoke of incense
> […]"
>
>
>
> *marīcikāvitīrṇārṇovibhrame bālukāmbudhau* || 4.172ab ||
>
> "In the ‘sea of sand’ (*vālukāmbudhi*), where the mirage produced the
> illusion of a stream, […]"
>
>
>
> Note by Stein: „[…] For *Prāgjyotiṣa, *see note ii.147. The ‘sea of sand’ *(vālukāmbudhi)
> *mentioned in verse iv.172, and again in the story related iv.279 sqq.,
> is distinctly placed in the north (see iv. 306), and seems to imply a
> distant knowledge of the desert tracts of Eastern Turkestan and Tibet.“
>
>
>
>
>
> *RT 8.2811*
>
>
>
> The entire scene is set exclusively in northern Kashmir, on the border
> with the land of the Dards. The Dards join forces with rebellious barons
> from the Kashmir Valley and, with the support of Central Asian Muslims, go
> to war with King Jayasiṃha with the aim of overthrowing him and installing
> Bhoja as king.
>
>
>
> *prasthitas tatpramāthāya Śamālais so ’nvabadhyata* |
>
> *vrajan Prāgjyotiṣaṃ hantum Pārthas saṃśaptakair iva* || 8.2811 ||
>
>
>
> When this [minister of the king, Rilhaṇa,] had set out to destroy [Loṭhaka
> of the rebels], he was pursued on the march by the inhabitants of *Śamālā
> *as Pārtha [had been] by the confederates when he went to slay the king
> of Prāgjyotiṣa.
>
>
>
> Note by Stein: „The story of Arjuna’s fight with the ‘confederates’ *(saṃśaptaka)
> *is found in *Mahābh. *vii., xxvii.1 sqq.“
>
>
>
> Given the context, it seems rather unlikely that Kalhaṇa would have chosen
> this comparison with Prāgjyotiṣa from the epic if he and his contemporary
> audience had not situated that city mentioned in the MBh in the wider
> northern area, as the battles they witnessed actually took place in
> northern Kashmir.
>
>
>
> Regards, WS
>
>
> Am Di., 25. Aug. 2026 um 22:13 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> Dear Madhav,
>>
>> I wouldn't want to hazard any conjectures about who exactly Naraka and
>> Mura might have been among the foreign rulers in the northwest. Perhaps
>> some historians have some ideas or other pertinent evidence. Were the
>> Kushanas ever styled as "yavana", in coins, inscriptions, or Puranic
>> histories?
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 2:06 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Jim,
>>>
>>>      This is eye-opening to me. I was not aware of the Western
>>> Pragjyotisha, and the identification of Naraka with the Greeks. Does this
>>> in some way help dating of these passages, if not of the composition of the
>>> epic itself?
>>>
>>> Madhav
>>>
>>>
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>>> India
>>>
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 10:10 AM Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> It is pertinent to this discussion that there seems to have been a
>>>> western locus of Prāgjyotiṣa as well as an eastern one. It is mentioned in
>>>> a portion of Nārāyaṇa's prophecy of future interventions in the terrestrial
>>>> world at MBh 12.326.82-85, which episodes have associations with western
>>>> India.
>>>>
>>>> I quote: “At the final juncture of the Dvāpara and Kali Ages, there
>>>> will be an appearance of me in Mathurā because of Kaṃsa. [82] Having killed
>>>> a large number of Dānavas then, who were thorns to the Gods, I shall
>>>> make Kuśasthalī, which is the city Dvārakā, my dwelling. [83] Dwelling
>>>> in that city, I shall kill that annoyer of Aditi Naraka, son of Earth,
>>>> and Mura and the Dānava Pīṭha.[84] Having killed the preeminent
>>>> Dānavas, I shall lead the delightful city of Prāgjyotiṣa, which
>>>> possesses prolific riches, to Kuśasthalī. [85]"
>>>>
>>>> In an endnote to Kuśasthalī, I write: "326.85. Prāgjyotiṣa was the
>>>> capital city of the Asura Naraka and the locus of Kṛṣṇa’s killing him (HV
>>>> 91.53–57). His “leading” Prāgjyotiṣa to Kuśasthalī likely refers to what is
>>>> described at HV 97.1: “The road to the town of Prāgjyotisha has been made
>>>> safe once again” (trans. Brodbeck). This entire HV śloka is identical to
>>>> MBh 3.13.26, though the context in the MBh is one of listing great deeds of
>>>> Kṛṣṇa. MBh 2.13.13 identifies Naraka (and Mura as well) as Greek
>>>> rulers (yavanādhipau) who were under the rule of Bhagadatta, “a king of
>>>> unlimited power, who ruled in the West like Varuṇa.” It seems unlikely
>>>> that Naraka’s Prāgjyotiṣa is the same as the Prāgjyotiṣa in the far
>>>> northeast of the subcontinent, in modern day Assam, which is
>>>> generally considered to be where the Prāgjyotiṣa governed by the
>>>> elephant-riding Bhagadatta was located. Bhagadatta is described at MBh
>>>> 5.4.11d as “dwelling by the eastern ocean.” At the same time, it was in the
>>>> far north that Arjuna encountered and subdued Bhagadatta in the digvijaya
>>>> of Yudhiṣṭhira’s Rājasūya, 2.23.13–26. It would seem that in addition
>>>> to the far eastern Prāgjyotiṣa, there was another one, the “home of the
>>>> western Asuras” (Hopkins, Epic Mythology, 257; see too 50–51), and that
>>>> Bhagadatta came somehow to be identified with both."
>>>>
>>>> Best, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 8:55 AM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Patrick,
>>>>>
>>>>> As usual, M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Worterbuch des Altindoarischen,
>>>>> is an indispensable source for linguistic matters (see vol. II, p. 389).
>>>>> Indian primary sources regarding mlecchas and other foreigners have been
>>>>> exhaustively compiled and discussed in K. Karttunen, Yonas And Yavanas In
>>>>> Indian Literature, Helsinki 2015 [= Studia Orientalia, 116]. Check the
>>>>> index and the searchable file which can be downloaded from here:
>>>>> https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>> Martin Straube
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> schrieb
>>>>> am Montag, 24. August 2026 um 14:31:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Dear All:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > A colleague in India who is not a member of this list asked me for
>>>>> secondary works, as well as primary sources, for the concept of “mleccha”
>>>>> in ancient India. The work by Parasher-Sen is well known. But are there
>>>>> others? With thanks and best wishes,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Patrick
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>> >
>>>>>
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>>>>
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