[INDOLOGY] Abbreviations in NGMCP catalogue entries.

Walter Slaje walter.slaje at gmail.com
Mon Jan 6 13:45:31 UTC 2025 

The Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft (DMG) is the owner of the films,
which are held in trust by the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin (StaBi). The DMG
has no direct influence on the management practices of the StaBi.

Because of the objectionable restrictions on the use of the NGMPP
microfilms, in February 2014, after I had taken over the chairmanship of
the DMG in 2012, I contacted the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin and asked them
to "organise the materials held in trust in Berlin into definitive terms of
use that allow researchers access to the filmed material with as little
bureaucracy as possible" (7.2.2014).

The previous restrictions on use, which contradicted the wording of the
contract between the DMG and the StaBi, had been drawn up by the then
managements of the NGMPP/NGMCP (two third-party-projects funded
consecutively) and the StaBi - the last restrictive conditions dated 2010 -
without consent of the DMG board.


The new terms of use were promptly implemented as requested in March 2014.
The unauthorised restriction to German citizens etc. has therefore been
lifted for 10 years, as Prof. Steiner explained. The obstacles that are
still the subject of complaints have in fact long since been removed. If
problems still arise, the current terms of use can easily be invoked.



> "You can use this for your research, but you can't publish it".

This is the subject of the contractual agreement with Nepal (1970). Berlin
is not allowed to grant permission to publish. In keeping with this, the
actual terms and conditions state:

"2. The publication of texts from the holdings of the NGMPP is only
possible with the permission of the National Archives in Kathmandu (Nepal).
If you intend to publish the material in whole or in part, please send a
request to Government of Nepal, Ministry of Culture, Tourism and Civil
Aviation, Department of Archaeology, National Archives, Ramshah Path,
Kathmandu, Nepal. Phone: 00977-1-4251315 or -4264353, Fax: 00977-1-4262856".



With regard to the conversion and protective digitisation of the documents,
the DMG has been negotiating for years with the management of the StaBi,
who have been very restrictive in this matter, mainly due to the enormous
costs and lack of funds. I do not know the current status, but Prof.
Steiner has also commented on this.


Regards,

WS





Am Mo., 6. Jan. 2025 um 04:03 Uhr schrieb Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> I have encountered exactly the same difficulties as those described by
> Patricia.  I was once told, in the 90s, perhaps by Emmerick, that members
> of the DMG were permitted to have copies of NGMPP MSS from Berlin.  So I
> joined the DMG.  Then I wrote to the ST Berlin asking for copies and
> received the written answer that DMG membership was not enough: I had to be
> a German citizen.  I have had at least half a dozen experiences of this
> type.  Even if the actual words are not in the contract - which is
> interesting - the widespread practical understanding formally stated by the
> STB is that German citizens only may have copies.  Amongst non-Germans,
> there is a sort of samizdat system where friendly, helpful German
> colleagues will pass on copies under the table.  It's all quite crazy.  And
> always with the caveat, "use this for your research, but you can't publish
> this."
>
> On the preservation issue.  A colleague using NGMPP manuscripts in Berlin
> last summer, just six months ago, was told that the microfilms are indeed
> deteriorating rapidly and that it is an urgent matter that they be
> digitized.  But the authorities in the library are unwilling to fund a
> serious digitization project precisely because the resulting digital images
> could not be made generally available to the public.  This is a terrible
> situation.
>
> Somebody in an authoritative position in the DMG or the German Ministry of
> State for Culture and the Media or the Federal Ministry of Education and
> Research needs to take initiative on this matter, if necessary travelling
> to Kathmandu and working through senior diplomatic channels, and get this
> solved.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
>
> --
> Prof. Dominik Wujastyk
> University of Alberta
>
> "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth,
> the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge
> through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and
> service."
> -- Collective Agreement
> <https://www.ualberta.ca/human-resources-health-safety-environment/media-library/my-employment/agreements/2020-2024-collective-agreement---working-version.pdf>
> 3.01
>
>
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2025 at 07:45, Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> As far as I know, 1,000 films were digitised in 2015 as part of the
>> Heidelberg Academy project “Sources of Religious and Legal History of
>> Pre-Modern Nepal.” The digital copies are stored on the server of the
>> Heidelberg Academy of Sciences and Humanities (HADW) and some of them
>> are accessible on the internet (https://nepalica.hadw-bw.de/nepal/).
>>
>> In the spring of 2023, the Berlin State Library digitised a further
>> 1,000 films (30 TB). After that, about 7,000 films remain to be
>> digitised, and the DMG (Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft, German
>> Oriental Society) will help finance the long-term archiving of the
>> Nepalese films if certain conditions will be met. The DMG is financed
>> entirely by membership fees and receives no government funding.
>> Information on the terms and conditions of DMG membership can be found
>> at
>>
>> https://www.dmg-web.de/page/mitgliedschaft_en
>>
>> Best regards
>> Roland Steiner
>>
>> ----- Nachricht von Harry Spier via INDOLOGY
>> <indology at list.indology.info> ---------
>>       Datum: Tue, 31 Dec 2024 23:17:46 -0500
>>         Von: Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> Antwort an: Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
>>     Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Abbreviations in NGMCP catalogue entries.
>>          An: Patricia SAUTHOFF <sauthoff at hkbu.edu.hk>
>>          Cc: "INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>"
>> <indology at list.indology.info>
>>
>>
>> > In 2017 I was told by Michael Witzel that some of the original NGMCP
>> > microfilm had already started to deteriorate.  Has all the microfilm
>> been
>> > digitized?
>> > Harry Spier
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 12:34 PM Patricia SAUTHOFF <
>> sauthoff at hkbu.edu.hk>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear all,
>> >>
>> >> First, thank you to Harry Spier for allowing me to hijack this thread.
>> >>
>> >> This has been an interesting discussion. About 10 years ago myself and
>> my
>> >> German supervisor tried to get manuscript copies from Berlin to no
>> avail. I
>> >> did finally get copies (too late to work with during my PhD) from a
>> former
>> >> researcher with the NGMCP with the warning that I couldn't publish
>> them.
>> >>
>> >> I couldn't access the Berlin order page from Hong Kong but could
>> through
>> >> German, UK, and USA VPNs. I will wait and see what happens. Worst case
>> >> scenario it sounds like a trip to Nepal would be fruitful.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you all for your helpful advice.
>> >> Patricia
>> >>
>> >> Patricia Sauthoff
>> >> 司徒 雛菊
>> >> Assistant Professor
>> >> Department of History
>> >> Hong Kong Baptist University
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> >> Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> >> *Sent:* Monday, December 30, 2024 10:16 PM
>> >> *To:* indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Abbreviations in NGMCP catalogue entries.
>> >>
>> >> CAUTION! EXTERNAL EMAIL (not being sent from @hkbu email system): Do
>> not
>> >> click links, open attachments, or respond to it unless you trust the
>> email
>> >> source/verify the identity of the sender by other means.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In my last message I should have added that, according to the
>> >> currently valid terms of use of the State Library of Berlin, access to
>> >> the holdings of the NGMPP is of course still not subject to any
>> >> restrictions with regard to the nationality of the users:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> https://webshop.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/english/bedingungen-ngmpp/?___from_store=deutsch
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >>
>> >> RS
>> >>
>> >> ----- Nachricht von Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY
>> >> <indology at list.indology.info> ---------
>> >>       Datum: Mon, 30 Dec 2024 14:20:13 +0100
>> >>         Von: Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> >> Antwort an: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de
>> >>     Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Abbreviations in NGMCP catalogue entries.
>> >>          An: indology at list.indology.info
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Dear Dominik,
>> >> >
>> >> > In the NGMPP leaflet of 2010 (“VORLäUFIGE Benutzungsordnung des
>> >> > Mikrofilm-Depots”, “PROVISIONAL Usage Regulations of the Microfilm
>> >> > Depot”), point 2 actually says that “according to the contract
>> >> > concluded between the government of the Kingdom of Nepal and the
>> >> > Deutsche Morgenländische Gesellschaft [DMG, German Oriental
>> >> > Society], copies may only be made for citizens of Germany, Austria
>> >> > and Switzerland.”
>> >> >
>> >> > The above claim that this is stipulated in the contract between the
>> >> > Nepalese government and the DMG is simply false. Neither in this
>> >> > contract of 16 February 1970 nor in the contract of 24 March 1984
>> >> > between the DMG and the Stiftung Preußischer Kulturbesitz (to which
>> >> > the State Library of Berlin belongs) is there such a restriction.
>> >> > Consequently, it is also missing from the Berlin State Library's
>> >> > “Information Sheet for the Use of Manuscripts” (“Merkblatt für die
>> >> > Benutzung von Handschriften”) of November 2009 and from the current
>> >> > “Terms and Conditions for the Use of the Microfilm Depository
>> >> > (NGMPP)” (“Benutzungsordnung des Mikrofilm-Depots [NGMPP]”) of the
>> >> > Berlin State Library of March 2014.
>> >> >
>> >> > It was never intended to be otherwise.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best regards
>> >> > Roland
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Nachricht von Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
>> >> > <indology at list.indology.info> ---------
>> >> >      Datum: Sun, 29 Dec 2024 20:23:19 -0700
>> >> >        Von: Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info>
>> >> > Antwort an: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>> >> >    Betreff: Re: [INDOLOGY] Abbreviations in NGMCP catalogue entries.
>> >> >         An: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> >> >
>> >> >> The original contract between the German Research Society and the
>> >> >> Nepalese authorities stipulated that copies of microfilms had to be
>> >> >> purchased directly from the National Archives in Kathmandu.  The
>> >> >> one exception to this was that copies of the films were available
>> >> >> in Berlin, where German nationals could consult them and have
>> >> >> copies.  That's the contract and it has not been renegotiated.
>> >> >> Many of us have wrestled with all this for many decades.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    If anything different from this is happening then it is the
>> >> >> result of an altruistic gesture by someone in favour of supporting
>> >> >> non-nationalistic scholarship, which is lovely.  But it's not a
>> >> >> result of a change in the original terms of the contract.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>    Best,
>> >> >>    Dominik
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>      --
>> >> >>      Prof. Dominik Wujastyk
>> >> >>      University of Alberta
>> >> >>
>> >> >>      "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of
>> truth,
>> >> >>      the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge
>> >> >>      through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative
>> >> >> activities and service."
>> >> >>      -- Collective Agreement[1] 3.01
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Ende der Nachricht von Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
>> >> > <indology at list.indology.info> -----
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Links:
>> >> > ------
>> >> > [1]
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://www.ualberta.ca/human-resources-health-safety-environment/media-library/my-employment/agreements/2020-2024-collective-agreement---working-version.pdf
>> >> >  --
>> >> >
>> >> > Prof. Dr. Roland Steiner
>> >> > Fachgebiet Indologie und Tibetologie
>> >> > FB 10 der Philipps-Universitaet
>> >> > Deutschhausstr. 12
>> >> > 35032 Marburg (Briefanschrift / for letters)
>> >> > 35037 Marburg (Paketanschrift / for parcels)
>> >> > Germany
>> >> > E-Mail: steiner at uni-marburg.de
>> >> >
>> >>
>> https://www.uni-marburg.de/de/fb10/iksl/faecher/indologie/fachgebiet/personen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Ende der Nachricht von Roland Steiner via INDOLOGY
>> >> <indology at list.indology.info> -----
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>> >> ------------------------------
>> >> [image: Baptist University Logo]
>> >>
>> >> Disclaimer
>> >>
>> >> This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential
>> >> information intended for a specific individual and/or purpose. If you
>> are
>> >> not the intended recipient, please delete this message and notify the
>> >> sender and the University immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or
>> >> distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it,
>> is
>> >> prohibited as it may be unlawful.
>> >>
>> >> In addition, the University specifically denies any responsibility for
>> the
>> >> accuracy or quality of information obtained through University E-mail
>> >> Facilities. Any views and opinions expressed in the email(s) are those
>> of
>> >> the author(s), and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions
>> of
>> >> the University. The University accepts no liability whatsoever for any
>> >> losses or damages that may be incurred or caused to any party as a
>> result
>> >> of the use of such information.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ----- Ende der Nachricht von Harry Spier via INDOLOGY
>> <indology at list.indology.info> -----
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250106/6d74670c/attachment.htm>

More information about the INDOLOGY mailing list