[INDOLOGY] Query

Sat Jan 4 08:57:03 UTC 2025

> I do remember that Gustav Roth discussed this in one of his works on
Vinaya. I think he was arguing against Schlingloff on this point.

Oskar von Hinüber has remarked on this by providing the bibliographical
data:

„Hervorgehoben zu werden verdient auch die Bemerkung zu dem Längenmaß
*sugatavitasti
*§ 186, Anm. 4, p. 202: gegen D. Schlingloff, ZDMG 113, 1964, 544 hält G.
Roth daran fest, daß dies “the span between the extended thumb and the
little finger of the Sugata, i. e. of the Buddha” sei. Zur Orientierung von
Längenmaßen an bestimmten Körpermaßen bedeutender Persönlichkeiten vgl.
H.-J. v. Alberti, Maß und Gewicht, Berlin 1957, p. 94 mit Abb. 23, p. 95
zur Festlegung des Yard, das sich am Abstand von der Nasenspitze zum Ende
des Daumens von Heinrich I. (1000-1035) orientiert.“

Oskar von Hinüber, Review of: Roth, Gustav [Hrsg.] : Bhikṣuṇī-Vinaya
including Bhikṣuṇī-Prakīrṇaka and a summary of the Bhikṣu-Prakīrṇaka of the
Ārya-Mahāsāṃghika-Lokottaravādin. Edited and annotated for the first time
with introduction and two indexes. Patna: K. P. Jayaswal Research Institute
1970.

In: OLZ 72, 5 (1977), pp. 527–529 [= Kleine Schriften II (2009), pp.
918–920].

Regards,

WS

Am Fr., 3. Jan. 2025 um 23:46 Uhr schrieb Richard G. Salomon via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info>:

> Hi Patrick
>
> My recollection is that There is an old controversy as to whether the
> sugata in sugata-vitasti means “conventional, current “ or “the Buddha’s”,
> in which case the term would be comparable to the king’s foot establishing
> the standard measure in Europe. I wrote something about this but I don’t
> remember where exactly. I am in Kolkata now but can check up my  old files
> when I get back.
>
> I do remember that Gustav Roth discussed this in one of his works on
> Vinaya. I think he was arguing against Schlingloff on this point.
>
> Rich
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 3, 2025, at 11:30 PM, Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> 
> Thanks, Madhav. This is very helpful. Yes, we have vitasti also in
> Kauṭilya — viewed as 12 aṅgulas, or about 24 cm (my own vitasti is only 21
> cm, but I have a small hand!!). There would then be 4.5 vitastis in a hasta.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 3, 2025, at 11:12 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I found one likely explanation:
>
> Source
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dictionary.sutta.org/__;!!K-Hz7m0Vt54!h4gZrh7dZgEMNMT-se2b_R6CYLYeTTX0rnR187lkhLhf1zMYZuBz39ZrO_J8q_famlswLlODgkm9BOsWKRfNGT2pyg$>
> : Sutta: The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary
>
> Vidatthi, (f.) (cp. Vedic vitasti; see Geiger, P. Gr. 383) a span (of 12
> aṅgulas or finger-breadths) Vin. III, 149 (dīghaso dvādasa vidatthiyo
> sugata-vidatthiyā); IV, 279; J. I, 337; III, 318; Miln. 85; Vism. 65,
> 124, 171, 175, 408; DhA. III, 172; IV, 220; VbhA. 343 (dvādas’ aṅgulāni
> vidatthi; dve vidatthiyo ratanaṃ, etc.). (Page 621)
>
>
> Not connected to "hasta".
>
>
> The word "vitasti" likely survives in Marathi as वीत vīt, a measure "from
> the tip of thumb to the tip of the small finger of a stretched hand". This
> is a common Marathi word.
>
>
> Madhav
>
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 7:33 AM Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>> Happy New Year. Someone from Thailand sent me this query, and I turn to
>> you all for any possible answers:
>>
>> The reference we found states: "...the * sugatavidatthi* is really just
>> the sugata hattha"
>>
>>
>>    1. The definition and relationship between *sugata and hattha *in
>>       your research
>>       2. The historical and textual basis for the 42.6cm measurement of
>>       a hattha
>>
>> Additionally, if you are familiar with Buddhist texts, we would be very
>> interested in understanding: 3. How this measurement might relate to the
>> Buddha's span (sugatavidatthi) as mentioned in the Vinaya texts. However,
>> we completely understand if this falls outside your area of research.
>>
>> This information is crucial for his research on Vinaya rules regarding
>> robe dimensions (particularly the 6-hattha height limit for robes) and
>> monastic dwelling specifications. Understanding these measurements has
>> practical implications for maintaining authenticity in modern Buddhist
>> monastic practice.
>>
>> With thanks and warm good wishes,
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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