[INDOLOGY] Indo-European

Fri Feb 7 17:26:40 UTC 2025

I don't like the words "final and definitive," but it is indeed profitable
to read the research of authors like Reich and Anthony. It is also
worthwhile to keep in mind Hans Hock's caution that people with the same
genetic markers could be speaking different languages.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Fri, Feb 7, 2025 at 8:18 AM Michael Brattus Jones via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Prof. Paturi,
>
> Yes, of course the Indo-Aryan (IA) languages are much later than
> Proto-Indo-European (PIE). There are several versions of the Out of India
> Theory (OIT), with different scenarios involving the Indus Civ etc., but,
> as far as I know, the “Invasion” in AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) has been
> superseded by the term “migration” in serious evidence-based discourse
> nowadays, so putting AIT as OIT’s contender could become a straw-man type
> of situation.
>
> I noticed you did not mention the Indo-Iranian (IIr) branch of IE, which
> is another stumbling block for some OIT proponents. The fact that OIT
> doesn’t get much traction outside of India (/S Asia) is itself telling. It
> requires special pleading. Maybe it was more plausible a few decades ago,
> but its burden grows increasingly heavy in the face of mounting linguistic,
> archaeological, and now even genetic evidence coalescing to the contrary.
>
> Anyway, I do recommend Anthony’s Horse, Wheel, and Language to anyone
> interested in any of these issues.
>
> (I admit I smiled at the Sri and the ji you lavished upon me, but there
> are far more qualified scholars to take up this complex interdisciplinary
> issue, and also, “Mike” is just fine.)
>
> Thank you!
> Satyam eva jayate!
> - Mike B. Jones
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 7, 2025, at 4:46 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> 
> >  hasn’t been a real contender for some time, and the “out of India”
> hypothesis wasn’t ever really taken seriously, out of India, that is
>
> ---
>
> Dear Sri Michael Brattus Jones ji,
>
> Out of India 's contender is AIT and/ or vice versa.
>
> A in AIT comes from IA and PIA which is a much later part of the story of
> IE and PIE.
>
> The word 'Arya(n)' that A stands for in AIT and consequently in the
> arguments of OIT is found in one of the IA languages that comes much later
> in the story.
>
> It is the PIE speakers whose place of origin is being discussed in the
> article on hand.
>
> OIT theories that place PIE in India are probably the contenders of the
> position in the article but not the OIT theories that debate the movement
> of IA language speakers during the part of the story later to the
> separation of PIA from PIE.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 7, 2025 at 3:34 AM Michael Brattus Jones via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> There’s really not much doubt about the big picture anymore, but further
>> refinements may still emerge and some questions still linger.
>>
>> This is what Gimbutas argued, then Mallory, then Anthony, all without
>> using genetic evidence. Anthony’s Horse, Wheel, and Language is a must-read
>> for anyone interested in IE spread (and it’s now available as an
>> audiobook). Reich’s team showed the genetic evidence confirms it, and
>> refines it (re: Anatolian). Renfrew’s competing hypothesis, that IE spread
>> with the Neolithic revolution, hasn’t been a real contender for some time,
>> and the “out of India” hypothesis wasn’t ever really taken seriously, out
>> of India, that is.
>>
>> The genetics mostly just confirmed what was already known, and further
>> refined it. That’s my understanding at least.
>>
>> -Mike B. Jones
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2025, at 1:40 PM, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>  Reich and Lazaridis have a well-established record of trying to unravel
>> the prehistoric genomic scene in the Eurasian steppes (and neighboring
>> areas).
>>
>> The spread from that area west and south (as well as east, as established
>> by other studies) coincides with the spread of Indo-European languages; so
>> the conclusion that the two spreads are in fact identical is not at all
>> far-fetched.
>>
>> It is noteworthy, however, that other studies show that the genomic
>> spread into the Iberian peninsula seems to have included both Indo-European
>> speakers and linguistic ancestors of the Basques; similarly, a recent study
>> suggests that the Etruscans, who are by most counts non-Indo-European, also
>> had steppe genomes. If these findings are correct, it would need to be
>> acknowledged that the population spread out of the steppes did not only
>> include speakers of Indo-European languages but also of other languages;
>> put differently, the population spreading out of the steppes may not have
>> been linguistically homogeneous. (If we consider later spreads, such as
>> that of the Huns, who included in their group not only East (Central) Asian
>> populations but also some Iranians, as well as one branch of the Goths,
>> such mixed linguistic composition should not come as a great surprised.)
>>
>> So, the Harvard study constitutes a major contribution to unravelling
>> Eurasian prehistory and connecting it with archaeology and linguistics.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Hans Henrich
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2025, at 14:03, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> My take as someone who has not read the original study: I am cautious
>> about this for several reasons.
>>
>> -- A person's genes do not tell you what language they're speaking.
>> -- University alumni magazines love to talk up research from their
>> institutions and make its results sound much more 'decisive' than they are.
>> -- That they get wrong simple things like when Europeans noticed that
>> Sanskrit, Latin and Greek were related by well over a century does not
>> inspire confidence. (But hey, scientists don't need to read early 17th-c
>> sources in Latin, right:-)?)
>>
>> That said, if further study of the Nature article corroborated these
>> findings, I'd be more than delighted. I'm definitely going to take a look.
>>
>> --Antonia
>>
>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2025 at 15:22, Howard Resnick via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>
>>> Is this study as final and definitive as the article claims? Thanks!
>>>
>>> Howard
>>>
>>> <020425_Yamnaya_016.jpeg>
>>>
>>> Landmark studies track source of Indo-European languages— Harvard Gazette
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2025/02/landmark-studies-track-source-of-indo-european-languages-spoken-by-40-of-world/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily*20Gazette*2020250206*20(1)&spMailingID=35820945&spUserID=MjM4ODIxNjk1NDQyS0&spJobID=2843202028&spReportId=Mjg0MzIwMjAyOAS2__;JSUl!!DZ3fjg!9k7xhGZcA6K_Hegt9TdQfY9gVmVWMAaTIgzKhnSV2tRJ4LiebQx2i3dJgAlOSiyp5SHtWFvIkQaegenJEZ4YqMpRjT2u$>
>>> news.harvard.edu
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2025/02/landmark-studies-track-source-of-indo-european-languages-spoken-by-40-of-world/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily*20Gazette*2020250206*20(1)&spMailingID=35820945&spUserID=MjM4ODIxNjk1NDQyS0&spJobID=2843202028&spReportId=Mjg0MzIwMjAyOAS2__;JSUl!!DZ3fjg!9k7xhGZcA6K_Hegt9TdQfY9gVmVWMAaTIgzKhnSV2tRJ4LiebQx2i3dJgAlOSiyp5SHtWFvIkQaegenJEZ4YqMpRjT2u$>
>>>
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2025/02/landmark-studies-track-source-of-indo-european-languages-spoken-by-40-of-world/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily*20Gazette*2020250206*20(1)&spMailingID=35820945&spUserID=MjM4ODIxNjk1NDQyS0&spJobID=2843202028&spReportId=Mjg0MzIwMjAyOAS2__;JSUl!!DZ3fjg!9k7xhGZcA6K_Hegt9TdQfY9gVmVWMAaTIgzKhnSV2tRJ4LiebQx2i3dJgAlOSiyp5SHtWFvIkQaegenJEZ4YqMpRjT2u$>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
> Dean, IKS and Senior Director, IndicA
>
>
>
>
>
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