[INDOLOGY] Claude
Antonia Ruppel
antonia.ruppel at gmail.com
Fri Aug 8 19:47:52 UTC 2025
Also, even when an AI does give specific references, that means *nothing*.
Unless you recognise that reference and know for a fact it is right, you
need to check the source yourself.
Aleksandar, it's exactly as you say: when someone who isn't a trained
philologist gets something like this *and believes it*, the problems begin
for real.
Apologies, I do not want to hijack this thread and turn it into one about
AI; but I just wanted to reiterate that an AI saying that there is a
cognate here or a mention there truly means nothing until we have verified
that its claims/sources/references are indeed correct.
All my best,
Antonia
On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 21:30, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> Thank you. Yes, I appreciate that the query is not about the first
> occurrence of the word. But in terms of cultural significance, it would be
> hard to beat the Brhadaranyaka. How does an AI engine choose which
> references to offer and why do they seem so random, is what I find myself
> wondering whenever I use one. And what happens when the readers are no
> longer trained philologists?
>
> Best wishes
> Aleksandar
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 3:15:28 PM
> *To:* Uskokov, Aleksandar <aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu>
> *Cc:* Rolf Heinrich Koch <rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com>; Indology <
> indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude
>
> Yes, Alexander. There is not much of an issue with how old the word yak.rt
> is. The discussion is more about the likely sources of jagri.
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:06 PM Uskokov, Aleksandar <
> aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote:
>
> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the
> very opening of the *Bṛhad-āraṇyaka, *which raises the question of what
> is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate.
>
> Best wishes,
> Aleksandar
>
> Aleksandar Uskokov
>
> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar
>
> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale
> University
>
> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu
>
> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction"
>
> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/
>
>
> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM
> *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch <rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com>; Indology <
> indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude
>
> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual
> references:
>
> 1. Sanskrit (यकृत् / Yakṛt) – Ayurvedic Texts
>
> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the *"Raktavaha
> Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels).
> Key References:
>
> -
>
> Charaka Samhita (चरकसंहिता, ~300 BCE–200 CE)
> -
>
> *Chikitsāsthāna 15/16* – Discusses liver disorders (
> *yakṛd-dalyudara*, enlarged liver).
> -
>
> *Sūtrasthāna 28* – Lists *yakṛt* among major organs.
> -
>
> Sushruta Samhita (सुश्रुतसंहिता, ~4th century CE)
> -
>
> *Sharīrasthāna 4* – Describes the liver’s anatomical position.
> -
>
> *Nidānasthāna 7* – Diagnoses liver diseases (*yakṛt-plīhodara*).
> -
>
> Ashtanga Hridaya (अष्टाङ्गहृदय, 6th century CE)
> -
>
> *Sūtrasthāna 12* – Mentions *yakṛt* in the context of digestion.
>
> Example Verse (Charaka):
>
> *"यकृत्प्लीहानमुदरं गुल्मः..."*
> *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")*
> — *Charaka Samhita, Chikitsāsthāna 15*
>
> ------------------------------
> 2. Pali (यकन / Yakana) – Buddhist Texts
>
> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts.
> Key References:
>
> -
>
> Vinaya Piṭaka (विनयपिटक, Mahāvagga VI.14.6)
> -
>
> Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict
> dietary rules).
> -
>
> Milindapañha (मिलिन्दपञ्ह, ~1st century BCE)
> -
>
> Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical
> discussions.
> -
>
> Pali Jātaka Tales (e.g., Jātaka 319)
> -
>
> Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily suffering.
>
> Example Passage:
>
> *"Yakanaṃ hadayaṃ kilomakaṃ antogataṃ..."*
> *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")*
> — *Vinaya Piṭaka commentary*
>
> ------------------------------
> 3. Jain Prakrit (जिगर / Jigara) – Ardhamāgadhī & Śaurasenī
>
> Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yakṛt*).
> Key References:
>
> -
>
> Uttarādhyayana Sūtra (उत्तराध्ययन सूत्र, 5th–3rd century BCE)
> -
>
> Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma.
> -
>
> Sūtrakṛtāṅga (सूत्रकृताङ्ग 1.6.27)
> -
>
> Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-aṭṭhi*).
> -
>
> Paiyalacchi (पैयलच्छी, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon)
> -
>
> Defines: *"Jigara = Yakṛt"* (यकृत्).
>
> Example Verse (Sūtrakṛtāṅga):
>
> *"जिगर-अट्ठी-मज्जाणं..."*
> *("From liver to bones and marrow...")*
> — *Sūtrakṛtāṅga 1.6.27*
>
> ------------------------------
> 4. Apabhraṃśa (जिगरु / Jigaru) – Medieval Jain & Medical Texts
>
> The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhraṃśa.
> Key References:
>
> -
>
> Bhavisayatta Kaha (भविसयत्त कहा, 8th–10th century CE)
> -
>
> A Jain story describing a king’s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease).
> -
>
> Ravidatta’s Medical Works (रविदत्त, ~9th century CE)
> -
>
> Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments.
>
> Example Line:
>
> *"जिगरु दुक्खु"* ("Liver pain")
> — *Bhavisayatta Kaha*
>
> ------------------------------
> Evolution Summary:
>
> 1.
>
> Vedic Sanskrit: *Yakṛt (यकृत्)*
> 2.
>
> Pali: *Yakana (यकन)*
> 3.
>
> Early Prakrit: *Yakai (यकइ)*
> 4.
>
> Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (जिगर)*
> 5.
>
> Apabhraṃśa: *Jigaru (जिगरु)*
> 6.
>
> Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (जिगर)*
>
> These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient
> Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhraṃśa texts. The Deśīnāmamāla also lists it.
> Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru *goes
> back to Prakrit/Apabhraṃśa ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it
> a borrowing from Persian.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpandee
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear Rolf,
>
> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information
> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar
> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr̥t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagrī
> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain
> the *ī *at the end of *jagrī*, and then we have to assume that somehow
> the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagrī*. That requires too many ad
> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of
> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r̥ *is routinely pronounced as *rī
> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common
> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of
> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr̥t* and your *jagrī*,
> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking.
>
> Madhav
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57 AM Rolf Heinrich Koch <
> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Madhav,
>
> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you
> did with Claude.ai.
>
> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand):
>
> The Persian word *jigar* (جگر), meaning *“liver”*, has a well-established
> history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language
> family*. Here’s the full etymological breakdown:
> ------------------------------
> 🔹 1. *Persian jigar (جگر) – meaning: liver*
>
> -
>
> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to:
> -
>
> The *anatomical liver*, and
> -
>
> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep
> emotion* — much like how “heart” is used in English.
>
> ------------------------------
> 🔹 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian*
>
> -
>
> *Middle Persian*:
> -
>
> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*.
> -
>
> *Old Persian*:
> -
>
> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on
> related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms.
>
> ------------------------------
> 🔹 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots*
>
> -
>
> *Avestan* (East Iranian):
> -
>
> *yakarə* (liver) – a clear cognate.
> -
>
> *Proto-Iranian*:
> -
>
> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier
> Indo-Iranian form.
> -
>
> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*:
> -
>
> Reconstructed as *yákṛt* (same as Sanskrit *yakṛt* = liver)
> -
>
> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root:
> -
>
> **iék̂wṛ̥* → This is the PIE word for *“liver”*, and it gives rise
> to many cognates across Indo-European languages.
>
> ------------------------------
> 🔹 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages*
> Language Word for "liver" Notes
> *Sanskrit* *yakṛt* (यकृत्) Exact Indo-Aryan match
> *Avestan* *yakarə* East Iranian cognate
> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes)
> *Ancient Greek* *hēpar* (ἧπαρ) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE
> origin)
> *Old English* *lifere* → *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by
> metaphorical use ("life-organ")
> ------------------------------
> 🔹 5. *Semantic development in Persian*
>
> -
>
> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly
> metaphorical*:
> -
>
> *jigar-dil* = “liver-hearted” → brave
> -
>
> *jigar-pāra* (lit. “a piece of liver”) = a beloved person
> -
>
> *jigar khun hona* (“liver bleeding”) = intense grief
>
> This is *cultural* — just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in
> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the
> seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*.
> ------------------------------
> ✅ Summary:
>
> -
>
> *Jigar (جگر)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European
> *iék̂wṛ̥* via *Indo-Iranian *yakṛt*.
> -
>
> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yakṛt*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan
> *yakarə*.
> -
>
> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures
> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not
> etymological.
>
> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European
> languages?
>
>
>
> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY:
>
> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c
>
> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word
> taker for liver.
>
> Madhav Deshpande
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>
> --
> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com
>
>
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