[INDOLOGY] Claude

Fri Aug 8 19:24:03 UTC 2025

Jagrī in context, may I say, I e. Kashmir or thereabouts in about 10th c.

On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 21:16, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 21:16, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <<a href=)> wrote:

> Yes, Alexander. There is not much of an issue with how old the word yak.rt is. The discussion is more about the likely sources of jagri.
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:06 PM Uskokov, Aleksandar < aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote:
>
>> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the very opening of the Bṛhad-āraṇyaka, which raises the question of what is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Aleksandar
>>
>> Aleksandar Uskokov
>>
>> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar
>>
>> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University
>>
>> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu
>>
>> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction"
>>
>> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/
>>
>> Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM
>> To: Rolf Heinrich Koch <rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com>; Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude
>>
>> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual references:
>>
>> 1. Sanskrit (यकृत् / Yakṛt) – Ayurvedic Texts
>>
>> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the "Raktavaha Srotas" (blood-carrying channels).
>>
>> Key References:
>>
>> -
>>
>> Charaka Samhita (चरकसंहिता, ~300 BCE–200 CE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> *Chikitsāsthāna 15/16* – Discusses liver disorders (yakṛd-dalyudara, enlarged liver).
>>
>> -
>>
>> Sūtrasthāna 28 – Lists yakṛt among major organs.
>>
>> -
>>
>> Sushruta Samhita (सुश्रुतसंहिता, ~4th century CE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Sharīrasthāna 4 – Describes the liver’s anatomical position.
>>
>> -
>>
>> Nidānasthāna 7 – Diagnoses liver diseases (yakṛt-plīhodara).
>>
>> -
>>
>> Ashtanga Hridaya (अष्टाङ्गहृदय, 6th century CE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Sūtrasthāna 12 – Mentions yakṛt in the context of digestion.
>>
>> Example Verse (Charaka):
>>
>>> "यकृत्प्लीहानमुदरं गुल्मः..."
>>> ("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")
>>> — Charaka Samhita, Chikitsāsthāna 15
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 2. Pali (यकन / Yakana) – Buddhist Texts
>>
>> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts.
>>
>> Key References:
>>
>> -
>>
>> Vinaya Piṭaka (विनयपिटक, Mahāvagga VI.14.6)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict dietary rules).
>>
>> -
>>
>> Milindapañha (मिलिन्दपञ्ह, ~1st century BCE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical discussions.
>>
>> -
>>
>> Pali Jātaka Tales (e.g., Jātaka 319)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Metaphorically uses "yakana" in descriptions of bodily suffering.
>>
>> Example Passage:
>>
>>> "Yakanaṃ hadayaṃ kilomakaṃ antogataṃ..."
>>> ("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")
>>> — Vinaya Piṭaka commentary
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 3. Jain Prakrit (जिगर / Jigara) – Ardhamāgadhī & Śaurasenī
>>
>> Jain texts in Prakrit use "jigara" (from Sanskrit yakṛt).
>>
>> Key References:
>>
>> -
>>
>> Uttarādhyayana Sūtra (उत्तराध्ययन सूत्र, 5th–3rd century BCE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Verse 36.75: Lists jigara among organs affected by karma.
>>
>> -
>>
>> Sūtrakṛtāṅga (सूत्रकृताङ्ग 1.6.27)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (jigara-aṭṭhi).
>>
>> -
>>
>> Paiyalacchi (पैयलच्छी, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Defines: "Jigara = Yakṛt" (यकृत्).
>>
>> Example Verse (Sūtrakṛtāṅga):
>>
>>> "जिगर-अट्ठी-मज्जाणं..."
>>> ("From liver to bones and marrow...")
>>> — Sūtrakṛtāṅga 1.6.27
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> 4. Apabhraṃśa (जिगरु / Jigaru) – Medieval Jain & Medical Texts
>>
>> The transitional form "jigaru" appears in late Prakrit/Apabhraṃśa.
>>
>> Key References:
>>
>> -
>>
>> Bhavisayatta Kaha (भविसयत्त कहा, 8th–10th century CE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> A Jain story describing a king’s "jigaru-roga" (liver disease).
>>
>> -
>>
>> Ravidatta’s Medical Works (रविदत्त, ~9th century CE)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Uses jigaru in prescriptions for liver ailments.
>>
>> Example Line:
>>
>>> "जिगरु दुक्खु" ("Liver pain")
>>> — Bhavisayatta Kaha
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Evolution Summary:
>>
>> -
>>
>> Vedic Sanskrit: Yakṛt (यकृत्)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Pali: Yakana (यकन)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Early Prakrit: Yakai (यकइ)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Later Prakrit (Jain): Jigara (जिगर)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Apabhraṃśa: Jigaru (जिगरु)
>>
>> -
>>
>> Modern Hindi/Urdu: Jigar (जिगर)
>>
>> These references contain the use of jigara or jigaru from ancient Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhraṃśa texts. The Deśīnāmamāla also lists it. Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word jigar/jigaru goes back to Prakrit/Apabhraṃśa ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it a borrowing from Persian.
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpandee
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46 AM Madhav Deshpande < mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Rolf,
>>>
>>> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian jigar is cognate with Sanskrit yakr̥t. The reason I am reluctant to think jagrī coming from Persian jigar, is that such a borrowing does not explain the ī at the end of jagrī, and then we have to assume that somehow the  i of jigar changed to a of jagrī. That requires too many ad hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the y of Sanskrit is replaced with j, and the r̥ is routinely pronounced as rī in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of a clear line of connection between Sanskrit yakr̥t and your jagrī, than to the Persian word. This is my thinking.
>>>
>>> Madhav
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>>>
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57 AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Madhav,
>>>>
>>>> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you did with Claude.ai.
>>>>
>>>> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand):
>>>>
>>>> The Persian word jigar (جگر), meaning “liver”, has a well-established history within the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. Here’s the full etymological breakdown:
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> 🔹 1. Persian jigar (جگر) – meaning: liver
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> In Classical Persian, jigar refers both to:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> The anatomical liver, and
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Metaphorical qualities like courage,  passion, and deep emotion — much like how “heart” is used in English.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> 🔹 2. Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Middle Persian:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> The word appears as jigar (same as modern) or  jekar.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Old Persian:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> The word is not directly attested, but is reconstructed based on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> 🔹 3. Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Avestan (East Iranian):
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> yakarə (liver) – a clear cognate.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Proto-Iranian:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Reconstructed as jigar or jakar, derived from an earlier Indo-Iranian form.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Proto-Indo-Iranian:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Reconstructed as yákṛt (same as Sanskrit yakṛt = liver)
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> *iék̂wṛ̥ → This is the PIE word for “liver”, and it gives rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> 🔹 4. Cognates in other Indo-European languages
>>>>
>>>> Language	Word for "liver"	Notes
>>>> Sanskrit	yakṛt (यकृत्)	Exact Indo-Aryan match
>>>> Avestan	yakarə	East Iranian cognate
>>>> Latin	iecur	PIE root preserved (with changes)
>>>> Ancient Greek	hēpar (ἧπαρ)	Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE origin)
>>>> Old English	lifere → liver	Possibly unrelated, or influenced by metaphorical use ("life-organ")
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> 🔹 5. Semantic development in Persian
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, jigar became  highly metaphorical:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> jigar-dil = “liver-hearted” → brave
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> jigar-pāra (lit. “a piece of liver”) = a beloved person
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> jigar khun hona (“liver bleeding”) = intense grief
>>>>
>>>> This is cultural — just as the heart became the seat of emotion in European traditions, the liver was seen in Persianate culture as the seat of  strong emotions, especially courage and deep love.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> ✅ Summary:
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Jigar (جگر) is an authentic Iranian word, descending from Proto-Indo-European *iék̂wṛ̥ via Indo-Iranian *yakṛt.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> It is cognate with Sanskrit yakṛt, Latin iecur, and Avestan yakarə.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> The metaphorical richness of the word in Persianate cultures (courage, love, pain) is a later cultural development, not etymological.
>>>>
>>>> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European languages?
>>>>
>>>> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY:
>>>>
>>>>> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c
>>>>>
>>>>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madhav Deshpande
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>
>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka
>>>> [www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com](http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250808/51835d95/attachment.htm>