From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Fri Aug 1 07:46:34 2025 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 07:46:34 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A__=E2=80=98Gyan_Bharatam_Mission?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_To_Digitise_Over_1_Crore_Ancient_=5BIndian=5D_Manuscr?= =?utf-8?q?ipts_+_Sanskrit_Universities_to_link_up_via_shared_digital_libr?= =?utf-8?q?ary?= References: <16A4ABDD-867B-4394-AC4E-32E403DC8754@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08B1C736-FB7F-4655-9FCE-19BCDF0F6507@uclouvain.be> D?but du message r?exp?di? : Objet: ?Gyan Bharatam Mission? To Digitise Over 1 Crore Ancient Manuscripts PM Modi Launches ?Gyan Bharatam Mission? To Digitise Over 1 Crore Ancient Manuscripts The mission aims to digitise, conserve, and make accessible over one crore manuscripts scattered across the country and was announced in the Union Budget https://news24online.com/india/mann-ki-baat-pm-modi-launches-gyan-bharatam-mission-to-digitise-over-1-crore-ancient-manuscripts/609521/ Objet: Sanskrit Universities to link up via shared digital library https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/education/sanskrit-universities-to-link-up-via-shared-digital-library/articleshow/122861895.cms ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 14:07:18 2025 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 10:07:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=E2=80=98Gyan_Bharatam_Mission?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_To_Digitise_Over_1_Crore_Ancient_=5BIndian=5D_?= =?utf-8?q?Manuscripts_+_Sanskrit_Universities_to_link_up_via_share?= =?utf-8?q?d_digital_library?= In-Reply-To: <08B1C736-FB7F-4655-9FCE-19BCDF0F6507@uclouvain.be> References: <16A4ABDD-867B-4394-AC4E-32E403DC8754@gmail.com> <08B1C736-FB7F-4655-9FCE-19BCDF0F6507@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: The article said: > > PM Modi Launches ?Gyan Bharatam Mission? To Digitise Over 1 Crore Ancient > Manuscripts > The mission aims to digitise, conserve, and make accessible over one crore > manuscripts scattered across the country > > Can any list members associated with or knowledgable about the NMM (National Mission for Manuscripts) digitization project) , clarify this initiatives relationship to the NMM project. 1) Is this about digitizing manuscripts not already photographed by the NMM . I.e. an expansion of the NMM project? 2) Is this about making the already photographed NMM manuscripts online or accessable in other ways? Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 22:05:12 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2025 16:05:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Final Developments Concerning GRETIL In-Reply-To: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: I see what Christophe is saying, and he's quite right. The Textgrid system is not displaying the "header" information (= etext metadata = TEI header) in an appropriate manner. It makes it appear that Gruenendahl personally typed all the texts in GRETIL. As to using services like Gitlab and Github, it can be a bit daunting at first. The whole Git ecosystem is fascinating and powerful, but not everybody needs it. And using it casually if you're not really into it is indeed daunting. In the case of Teodore's copy of GRETIL, you can get all of it by clicking this link: - https://gitlab.com/claudius-teodorescu/gretil-corpus-data/-/tree/main/contents/text?ref_type=heads and then pressing the blue [image: image.png] button at the top right of the screen and choosing your preferred download format (probably Zip). Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 1686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Sun Aug 3 04:10:23 2025 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 04:10:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> Dear List, The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could identify where this manuscript comes from. Many thanks, Ken [cid:image001.jpg at 01DC039F.8327A890] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3882284 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 11:49:24 2025 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 13:49:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> If the bird is blue coloured it may be a crow, the emblem of the planet Saturn (??ni). In Sri Lanka at each monastery you will find flags with this crow and a short prayer for ??ni to counteract his influence, which is most feared by the people. May be you search the text for ??ni or its Hindi equivalent. Heiner Am 03.08.2025 um 06:10 schrieb Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY: > > Dear List, > > The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and > accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could > identify where this manuscript comes from. > > Many thanks, > > Ken > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3882284 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lubint at wlu.edu Sun Aug 3 12:10:25 2025 From: lubint at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 12:10:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AB61EDA-B764-4EDE-8002-94C30AB68870@wlu.edu> Dear Ken, The bird is plainly meant to be a bulbul ? if the jaunty, forward cocked crest were not enough, the word bulbul is written directly below it. The coloring is not right for the red-whiskered bulbul, so ubiquitous in India, which has that crest, but perhaps the red-vented is meant. See: https://ogaclicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Bulbuls.pdf But your question was about the manuscript rather than the bird. It is this one: https://openn.library.upenn.edu/Data/0002/html/mscoll390_item1914.html Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion, and Adjunct Professor of Law Head of the Law, Justice, and Society Program 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 Visiting Researcher, Institute for Advanced Studies on Asia, University of Tokyo Vice-President of the American Society for Premodern Asia https://timothylubin.net | Academia.edu | SSRN | DHARMA Project From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: Rolf Heinrich Koch Date: Sunday, August 3, 2025 at 8:50?PM To: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source If the bird is blue coloured it may be a crow, the emblem of the planet Saturn (??ni). In Sri Lanka at each monastery you will find flags with this crow and a short prayer for ??ni to counteract his influence, which is most feared by the people. May be you search the text for ??ni or its Hindi equivalent. Heiner Am 03.08.2025 um 06:10 schrieb Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY: Dear List, The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could identify where this manuscript comes from. Many thanks, Ken [cid:image001.jpg at 01DC04BB.06B71710] _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3882285 bytes Desc: image001.jpg URL: From jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 12:16:34 2025 From: jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com (Jean Michel DELIRE) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 14:16:34 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Very interesting ! Are there such emblems for the other planets and what are they ? Best regards, Jean Michel Delire Le dim. 3 ao?t 2025 ? 13:51, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > If the bird is blue coloured it may be a crow, the emblem of the planet > Saturn (??ni). In Sri Lanka at each monastery you will find flags with this > crow and a short prayer for ??ni to counteract his influence, which is most > feared by the people. > > May be you search the text for ??ni or its Hindi equivalent. > > Heiner > Am 03.08.2025 um 06:10 schrieb Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY: > > Dear List, > > > > The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and > accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could > identify where this manuscript comes from. > > Many thanks, > > Ken > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3882284 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:05:18 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 16:05:18 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Heiner, Saturn is usually called ?ani (or ?anai?cara), not ??ni. Is it called ??ni in Sri Lanka? The dictionaries record attributive ??na?cara. Best wishes, Asko > On 3. Aug 2025, at 14.49, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY wrote: > > If the bird is blue coloured it may be a crow, the emblem of the planet Saturn (??ni). In Sri Lanka at each monastery you will find flags with this crow and a short prayer for ??ni to counteract his influence, which is most feared by the people. > > May be you search the text for ??ni or its Hindi equivalent. > > Heiner > > Am 03.08.2025 um 06:10 schrieb Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY: >> Dear List, >> >> The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could identify where this manuscript comes from. >> Many thanks, >> Ken >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:26:18 2025 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 15:26:18 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: In pre-sanscritic times saturn is called? ?ani (not ?ani). Today senasur?. ??ni is my error. Best Heiner Am 03.08.2025 um 15:05 schrieb Asko Parpola: > Dear Heiner, Saturn is usually called ?ani (or ?anai?cara), not ??ni. > Is it called ??ni in Sri Lanka? The dictionaries record attributive > ??na?cara. Best wishes, Asko > > >> On 3. Aug 2025, at 14.49, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY >> wrote: >> >> If the bird is blue coloured it may be a crow, the emblem of the >> planet Saturn (??ni). In Sri Lanka at each monastery you will find >> flags with this crow and a short prayer for ??ni to counteract his >> influence, which is most feared by the people. >> >> May be you search the text for ??ni or its Hindi equivalent. >> >> Heiner >> >> Am 03.08.2025 um 06:10 schrieb Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY: >>> Dear List, >>> The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird >>> and accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one >>> could identify where this manuscript comes from. >>> Many thanks, >>> Ken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> -- >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka >> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:35:53 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 16:35:53 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saturn In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Heiner, Thanks for clarification. How is senasur? to be understood? Best wishes, Asko > On 3. Aug 2025, at 16.26, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > > In pre-sanscritic times saturn is called ?ani (not ?ani). Today senasur?. ??ni is my error. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:35:53 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 16:35:53 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saturn In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Heiner, Thanks for clarification. How is senasur? to be understood? Best wishes, Asko > On 3. Aug 2025, at 16.26, Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > > In pre-sanscritic times saturn is called ?ani (not ?ani). Today senasur?. ??ni is my error. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:56:26 2025 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 15:56:26 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saturn In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1704c7ca-db48-42f2-9512-649bca926399@gmail.com> senasur? (?ani or ?ani > sena [a of ?ani changes to e if a syllable with i follows] + sur? = senasur?. It is a very common word which every Sinhalese refers to by any problem. Before they hang out such a flag, the astrologer studies their birthday pass (which includes the horoscope of the birthday) and advices him, that senasur? is probably the reason for his problem. All the flags I earlier wrote about start with his name (senasur?). I even?found two shrines dedicated to senasura: an old bearded man, completely in blue colour and the crow at his side). Heiner Am 03.08.2025 um 15:35 schrieb Asko Parpola: > Dear Heiner, Thanks for clarification. How is senasur? to be > understood? ?Best wishes, Asko > >> On 3. Aug 2025, at 16.26, Rolf Heinrich Koch >> wrote: >> >> In pre-sanscritic times saturn is called? ?ani (not ?ani). Today >> senasur?. ??ni is my error. > -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 14:55:49 2025 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 16:55:49 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saturn In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85950107-06e7-4af9-a5a7-754bc7c6d601@gmail.com> There happened another error: There is no pre-sansritic ?ani. I checked Clough: He mentions ?ani, ?anigraha and senasur?.? Sorry. Am 03.08.2025 um 15:35 schrieb Asko Parpola: > Dear Heiner, Thanks for clarification. How is senasur? to be > understood? ?Best wishes, Asko > >> On 3. Aug 2025, at 16.26, Rolf Heinrich Koch >> wrote: >> >> In pre-sanscritic times saturn is called? ?ani (not ?ani). Today >> senasur?. ??ni is my error. > -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Aug 3 17:04:18 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2025 10:04:18 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> <42b9e222-1be0-48f7-a396-d4c4626ee291@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Heiner, Can you specify what you mean by pre-Sanscritic times? Do you mean Indo-Iranian or Indo-European? Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Sun, Aug 3, 2025 at 6:26?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > In pre-sanscritic times saturn is called ?ani (not ?ani). Today senasur?. > ??ni is my error. > > Best > > Heiner > > > Am 03.08.2025 um 15:05 schrieb Asko Parpola: > > Dear Heiner, Saturn is usually called ?ani (or ?anai?cara), not ??ni. Is > it called ??ni in Sri Lanka? The dictionaries record attributive ??na?cara. > Best wishes, Asko > > > On 3. Aug 2025, at 14.49, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > If the bird is blue coloured it may be a crow, the emblem of the planet > Saturn (??ni). In Sri Lanka at each monastery you will find flags with this > crow and a short prayer for ??ni to counteract his influence, which is most > feared by the people. > > May be you search the text for ??ni or its Hindi equivalent. > > Heiner > Am 03.08.2025 um 06:10 schrieb Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY: > > Dear List, > > The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and > accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could > identify where this manuscript comes from. > Many thanks, > Ken > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Mon Aug 4 01:08:12 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 01:08:12 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication on Khowar Message-ID: <7715ECD3-0046-44CA-AB79-DDFDB60A2FCA@illinois.edu> Dear Friends and Colleagues, A colleague who is not on this list has just published a grammar of Khowar, an endangered language of Citral, based on thirty years of research and fieldwork. The book is available for order or download at https://uclpress.co.uk/book/a-grammar-of-khowar/ All best wishes, Hans Henrich Hock -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bevilacqua.dany at gmail.com Mon Aug 4 07:54:34 2025 From: bevilacqua.dany at gmail.com (Daniela Bevilacqua) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 08:54:34 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?paper_on_tapasy=C4=81?= Message-ID: Dear all, I have just realised that the *South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies *published by Taylor & Francis enables me to share a link to download 50 copies of my latest article "Embodying sacred pain: Practice of austerities among Hindu ascetics" for free. If someone is interested, here it is: https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/TS4RIWK5AKVXCK7SS3TU/full?target=10.1080/00856401.2025.2524248 All the best daniela Daniela Bevilacqua, PhD *Investigadora | Researcher* *https://cria.org.pt/en/people/d-bevilacqua * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de Mon Aug 4 11:24:08 2025 From: falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de (Harry Falk) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2025 13:24:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Toshifumi gone References: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <46546.130.133.8.114.1754306648.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de> Yesterday, news reached me of the sad demise of Toshifumi Goto on July 19, at the age of 77. Severe ailments had impeded his life for some years, to which he had finally to give in. He will be remembered as a good friend, stern and successful in his persuit of classical Vedic studies in the vein of his beloved teacher Karl Hoffmann. Our thoughts are with his wife, Junko Sakamodo-Goto. Junko printed RV 10.14.7-8 on her note, probably to express a last wish of Toshi's himself. There is nothing more to add to that. In sadness, Harry Falk -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: toshi-goto-2009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 946393 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mhgorisse at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 14:51:39 2025 From: mhgorisse at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?TWFyaWUtSMOpbMOobmUgR29yaXNzZQ==?=) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 15:51:39 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Workshop_=E2=80=9CHistory=2C_Scripture_and_?= =?utf-8?q?Debate=3A_Studies_in_South_Asia_in_Memory_of_Paul_Dundas?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9D=2C_12-14_September_2025=2C_University_of_Birmi?= =?utf-8?q?ngham?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, dear friends, I am happy to announce that the workshop *History, Scripture and Debate: Studies in South Asia in Memory of Paul Dundas* will be held on *12-14 September* 2025 at the *University of Birmingham*, where Paul?s library was donated. This workshop will gather scholars, mainly but not necessarily in Jain Studies, who interacted with Paul in a meaningful way. All are wellcome! In case you wish to attend, thanks for sending me (m.gorisse at bham.ac.uk) a line in advance for (vegetarian and vegan) catering purpose. Note that on September 15, this event will be followed by a one-day symposium on ?(Non-)One-sidedness?, organised by Jinesh Sheth (more details soon). Looking forwards to seing some of you at this occasion! With all best regards, Marie-H?l?ne -- Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse Dharmanath Assistant Professor in Jain Studies School of Philosophy, Theology and Religion University of Birmingham https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/tr/gorisse-marie-helene https://globalphilosophyofreligion.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: History, Scripture and Debate - Programme.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 771469 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 03:55:10 2025 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2025 21:55:10 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= Message-ID: I have not been able to find the medical term "jagr?" in any source available to me. It occurs in verse 2.111c of the *K?lacakra-tantra* (so in all manuscripts). It is in the phrase: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api ja?hara-gat?n. So it refers to either an organ or a disease found in the stomach area, along with pl?ha (i.e., pl?han, spleen) and ar?a (for ar?as, hemorrhoids). I am seeking a source for it in any Sanskrit medical treatise, and hopefully its meaning. Thank you, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankajaindia at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 06:04:17 2025 From: pankajaindia at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UGFua2FqIFN1a2FucmFqIEphaW4g4KSq4KSC4KSV4KScIOCkuOClgeCkleCkqOCksOCkvuCknA==?= =?UTF-8?B?IOCknOCliOCkqA==?=) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 11:34:17 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Symposium_on_=22Academic_Study_of_Religion?= =?utf-8?b?IiB8IEF1ZyA34oCTOCAyMDI1?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---- Forwarded message --------- From: Sanchari Basu Chaudhuri Date: Wed, 6 Aug, 2025, 11:31?am Subject: Symposium on "Academic Study of Religion" | Aug 7?8 2025 To: Cc: Pankaj Jain Esteemed colleagues, Our much-anticipated* Symposium on "Academic Study of Religion"* is finally here. We are delighted to remind you that it will be held on *August 7?8, 2025*, at *VKS 01, FLAME University*, and we kindly request your presence. To help us with event coordination, we request that you kindly *register through this form*. *If you have already registered, please do not register again.* Please also find attached the *revised schedule*, as there have been a few changes in the speaker lineup. We are also sharing the *Zoom link* for those who would like to attend virtually. *Zoom Link:* https://flameuniversity.zoom.us/j/95997077595 *Passcode:* 749620 We look forward to your participation and support. Best regards, Sanchari Basu Chaudhuri, PhD Fellow, The India Centre Senior Copyeditor, FWPS FLAME University On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 8:05?PM Sanchari Basu Chaudhuri < sancharibasu84 at gmail.com> wrote: > Esteemed colleagues, > > On behalf of Prof. Pankaj Jain (Director, The India Centre, FLAME > University) and Prof. Neelima Shukla-Bhatt (Wellesley College), we are > pleased to invite you to the international symposium *?Academic Study of > Religion?*, jointly organized by FLAME University and Wellesley College. > The symposium will take place on *7?8 August 2025* at the *FLAME > University campus*, Pune, India. > > Please find the detailed symposium schedule attached. > > While numerous international forums are dedicated to the academic study of > religion, India still lacks a sustained platform for rigorous, critical, > and scholarly engagement with religion. This symposium aims to address that > gap by foregrounding the distinctive expressions of religion in India, > moving beyond Western categories, and highlighting indigenous philosophies, > rituals, and worldviews. > > We warmly welcome your participation?*either in person or online*. If you > are unable to join us on campus, we invite you to attend virtually. > > *Zoom Link:* https://flameuniversity.zoom.us/j/95997077595 > *Passcode:* 749620 > > We look forward to your presence and meaningful engagement in this > important conversation. > > Best regards, > Sanchari Basu Chaudhuri, PhD > Fellow, The India Centre > Senior Copyeditor, FWPS > > FLAME University > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TheIndiaCentre" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to TheIndiaCentre+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/TheIndiaCentre/CAPhGF0hh5GKe-MGjDAXNOfWTJN1bNqi8jGHDBbVpj1AwHPjcaQ%40mail.gmail.com . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Academic Study of Religion, 7-8 Aug 2025.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2375736 bytes Desc: not available URL: From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de Wed Aug 6 07:48:15 2025 From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 10:48:15 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call for Abstracts: Doctoral Workshop on Kerala and Malayalam at Dept. of Indology, Univ.of Tuebingen Message-ID: The Department of Indology at the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies (AOI), Eberhard Karls University of T?bingen, invites PhD researchers to submit abstracts for participation in the two-day workshop titled ?Research Dialogues on Kerala: Malayali Worlds in Focus,? to be held in T?bingen on October 31 and November 1, 2025. The workshop aims to create an opportunity for emerging scholars from the Social Sciences and Humanities to present their ongoing research on Kerala and to receive feedback from peers and senior researchers. Confirmed discussants to date include senior scholars Professor Dr. Filippo Osella, Emeritus Professor of Anthropology at the School of Global Studies, University of Sussex, and Professor Dr. Heike Oberlin, Head of the Department of Indology at the University of T?bingen. We welcome submissions on a wide range of topics within Kerala studies, especially those engaging with the following themes: ? Caste, Gender, and Inequality ? Religion, Ritual, and Cultural Continuity ? Childhood, Youth, and Education ? Malayalam Language and Literature ? Art, Performance, and Cultural Production ? Migration, Diaspora, and Translocality ? Material Culture and Identity ? Culture, Media, and Representation ? Environment, Development, and Climate Change The workshop organisers will cover accommodation for two nights and meals for the participants. We welcome abstracts from participants who wish to join the workshop online. However, please note that the workshop is primarily planned as an in-person event, and we will prioritise applicants who can attend in T?bingen. Please send your abstracts (250-350 words) and a bio (100-150 words) on or before Friday, August 22, 2025, here: https://forms.gle/g3eDSUcNxZdi1JCb6. In case of any queries, please email Geetha K. Wilson or Rajashree Raju at keralaworkshoptuebingen at gmail.com . This workshop is funded by the Federal Ministry of Education and Research (BMBF) and the Baden-W?rttemberg Ministry of Science as part of the Excellence Strategy of the German Federal and State Governments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 10:04:54 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 13:04:54 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Toshifumi gone Message-ID: I was sorry to hear from Harry Falk about the sufferings and early death of Toshifumi Got?, whom I met on several occasions. I very much appreciate his research. The following list of Toshifumi?s publications is undoubtedly incomplete, but gives an idea of its extent. With condolences to his wife, other relatives and friends, Asko Parpola Got?, Toshifumi, 1976. rabh- : labh- + ? in der vedischen Literatur. Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies (Indogaku Bukkyogaku Kenky?) 24 (2): 1015-1007. Got?, Toshifumi, 1980. Ai. utsa?g?- und Verwandtes. M?nchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft 39:11-36. Got?, Toshifumi, 1985. Altindisch r?ndhra- und uridg. *lendh. M?nchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft 44 (Festgabe f?r Karl Hoffmann), Teil I: 77-91. M?nchen: R. Kitzinger. Got?, Toshifumi, 1987. Die "I. Pr?sensklasse" im Vedischen. Untersuchung der vollstufigen thematischen Wurzelpr?sentia. (Ver?ffentlichungen der Kommission f?r Linguistik und Kommunikationsforschung, 18; ?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Phil.-hist. Klasse, Sitzungsberichte 489.) Wien: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften. 450 pp. Pb ?S 994, DM 100. ISBN 3-7001-1119-3. Zweite Aufl. 1996. Got?, Toshifumi, 1990. Materialien zu einer Liste altindischer Verbalformen: 1. am(i), 2. ay/i, 3. as/s. Bulletin of the National Museum of Ethnology (Osaka) 15: 987-1012. Got?, Toshifumi, 1991. Materialien zu einer Liste altindischer Verbalformen: 4. dogh/dugh/doh/duh, 5. sav/su, 6. (1) sav(i)/s?, 7. (2) sav(i)/s?. Bulletin of the National Museum of Ethnology (Osaka) 16: 681-707. Got?, Toshifumi, 1991. A?v?n- to N??satya-. Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies (Indogaku Bukky?gaku Kenky?) 39 (2): 977-982. Got?, Toshifumi, 1993. Materialien zu einer Liste altindischer Verbalformen: 8. ard/?d, 9. ??, 10. uk?, 11. e?/i?, 12. e?(i)/i?(i), 13. ok/oc/uc, 14. ka?, 15. vak?/uk?. Bulletin of the National Museum of Ethnology (Osaka) 19: 119-141. Got?, Toshifumi, 1994. (Japanese translations of selected passages of the ?gveda, Br?hma?as and Upani?ads.) Pp. 3-86 in: K. Kamimura & K. Miyamoto (eds.), Indo no yume Indo no ai. Tokyo. Got?, Toshifumi, 1996. Zur Lehre ????ilyas. Pp. 71-89 in: Nalini Balbir & Georges-Jean Pinault avec la collaboration de Jean Fezas (eds.), Langue, style et structure dans le monde indien: Centenaire de Louis Renou. Actes du Colloque international (Paris, 25-27 janvier 1996). (Biblioth?que de l'?cole des Hautes ?tudes, Sciences historiques et philologiques, 334.) Paris: Honor? Champion. Got?, Toshifumi, 1996. Zur Geschichte vom K?nig J?na?ruti Pautr?ya?a (Ch?ndogya-Upani?ad IV 1-3). Studien zur Indologie und Iranistik 20 (Festschrift Paul Thieme): 89-115. Got?, Toshifumi, 1997. Materialien zu einer Liste altindischer Verbalformen: 16. chad, 17. chand/chad, 18. chard/ch?d, 19. dagh/dhag, 20. dve?/dvi?, 21. bandh/badh, 22. (1) man, 23 (2) man, 24. mn?, 25. (1) yav/yu, 26. (2) yav/yu, 27. san(i), 28 star/st?, 29. star(i)/st??.. Bulletin of the National Museum of Ethnology (Osaka) 22: 1001-1059. Got?, Toshifumi, 1999. ni??ubdha- in den ?rautas?tras und Verwandtes. Pp. 81-88 in: J?rgen Habisreitinger, Robert Plath und Sabine Ziegler (Hrsg.), Gering und doch von Herzen: 25 indogermanistische Beitr?ge Bernhard Forssman zum 65. Geburtstag. Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag. Got?, Toshifumi, 2000. Vasi??ha und Varu?a in RV VII 88: Priesteramt des Vasi??ha und Suche nach seinem indoiranischen Hintergrund. Pp. 147-161 in: Bernhard Forssman und Robert Plath (Hrsg.), Indoarisch, Iranisch und die Indogermanistik. Arbeitstagung der Indogermanischen Gesellschaft vom 2. bis 5. Oktober 1997 in Erlangen. Wiesbaden: Reichert Verlag. Got?, Toshifumi, 2000. Zur Sprache der ?vet??vatara-Upani?ad. Pp. 259-281 in: Christine Chojnacki, Jens-Uwe Hartmann und Volker M. Tschannerl (Hrsg.), Vividharatnakara??aka: Festgabe f?r Adelheid Mette. (Indica et Tibetica, 37.) Swisttal-Odendorf: Indica et Tibetica Verlag. Got?, Toshifumi, 2000. ?Pur?ravas und Urva??? aus dem neuentdeckten V?dh?la-Anv?khy?na (Ed. Ikari). Pp. 79-110 in: Almut Hintze und Eva Tichy (Hrsg.), Anusantatyai: Festschrift f?r Johanna Narten zum 70. Geburtstag. (M?nchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft, Beihefte NF 19.) Dettelbach: Verlag Dr Josef H. R?ll. Got?, Toshifumi, 2001. Review of Werba, Verba Indoarica, Pars I. Kratylos 46: 62-72. Got?, Toshifumi, 2002. Funktionen des Akkusativs und Rektionsarten des Verbums anhand des Altindoarischen. In: Heinrich Hettrich (ed.), Indogermanische Syntax. Wiesbaden: Dr. Ludwig Reichert Verlag. Got?, Toshifumi, 2004. Jinrui to shi no kigen. Rigveda suzousanka X 72. Pp. 415-432 in: Indogaku shoshisou to sono sy?en. Tokyo. Got?, Toshifumi, 2005. Y?j?avalkya's characterization of the ?tman and the four kinds of suffering in early Buddhism. Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies 12 (2). Got?, Toshifumi, 2008. Reisekarren und das Wohnen in der H?tte: ??l?m as- im ?atapatha-Br?hma?a. Pp. 115-125 in: L. Kulikov & M. Rusanov (eds.), Indologica: Sbornik statej pamyati T. Ya. Elizarenkovoj, kniga 1. (Orientalia et Classica 20.) Moskva: Rossijskij gosudarstvennyj gumanitarnyj universitet. Got?, Toshifumi, 2009. On the M?rt???a myth in Rigveda X 72. Paper read at the 14th World Sanskrit Conference held in Kyoto. Handout of 6 pp. Got?, Toshifumi, 2009. A?v?n- and N?'satya- in the ?gveda and their Prehistoric background. Pp. 199-226 in: Toshiki Osada (ed.), Linguistics, Archaeology and Human past in South Asia. New Delhi: Manohar. Got?, Toshifumi, 2011. A survey of new evidence as to formation of the Yajurveda and Br?hma?a texts. Paper read at the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest 20-23 Sept 2011. Handout (bibliography) 2 pp. Got?, Toshifumi, 2013. Old Indo-Aryan morphology and its Indo-Iranian background. In co-operation with Jared S. Klein and Velizar Sadovski. (Ver?ffentlichungen zur Iranistik, Nr 60; ?sterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften, Philosophisch-historische Klasse, Sitzungsberichte, 849. Band.) Wien: Verlag der ?sterreichischen Akademie der Wissenschaften. ii, 222, vi pp. Pb 41,70 euro. ISBN 3-7001-6948-2. Got?, Toshifumi, 2014. Hintergrund der indoarischen Einwanderung in Indien und die Menschengeschichte. Journal of International Philosphy 3. International Research Center for Philosophy, Toyo University. ISSN 2186-8581. Got?, Toshifumi, 2020. Altindoarisch ar/? und urindogermanisch *h1er, *h2er, *h3er. Pp. 75-111 in: Norbert Oettinger, Stefan Schaffner & Thomas Steer (eds), ?Denken sie einfach!?: Gedenkschrift f?r Karl Hoffmann. (M?nchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft, Beiheft 30, Neue Folge.) Dettelbach: Verlag J. H. R?ll GmbH. Goto, Toshifumi, 2023. Y?j?avalkya?s characterization of the ?tman and the four kinds of suffering in early Buddhism. Pp. 221-241 in: Ivan Andrijanic, Petteri Koskikallio, Kreshimir Krnic, Sven Sellmer & Przemyslav Szczurek (eds), Medh?t? ?r?va? I. Felicitation volume in honour of Mislav Jezic on the occasion of his seventieth birthday. Zagreb: Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts & New Delhi: Dev Publishers & Distributors. Witzel, Michael, und Toshifumi Got? unter Mitarbeit von Eijir? D?yama und Mislav Je?i? 2007. Rig-Veda, das Heilige Wissen: Erster und zweiter Liederkreis, aus dem vedischen Sanskrit ?bersetzt und herausgegeben. Frankfurt am Main: Verlag der Weltreligionen. 18 cm, 889 pp. Hb 32 Euro. ISBN 978-3-458-70001-3. Introduction, translation, detailed commentary, glossary. Witzel, Michael, Toshifumi Got? und Salvatore Scarlata 2013. Rig-Veda, das Heilige Wissen: Dritter bis f?nfter Liederkreis, aus dem vedischen Sanskrit ?bersetzt und herausgegeben. Frankfurt am Main: Verlag der Weltreligionen. 708 pp. Translation pp. 1-344, commentary, glossary etc. pp. 345-708. D?yama, Eijir?, und Toshifumi Got? 2022. Rig-Veda: Das heilige Wissen. Sechster und siebter Liederkreis. Aus dem vedischen Sanskrit ?bersetzt und herausgegeben von Eijir? D?yama (Buch VI.1-52) und Toshifumi Got? (Buch VI.53-75 und Buch VII). Berlin: Verlag der Weltreligionen. 717 pp. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yogacara at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 11:08:15 2025 From: yogacara at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 07:08:15 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= Message-ID: <4FAF7CA9-4C93-4F20-8C89-FFF16DE0E309@gmail.com> Hi David, The Dharmamitra.org site has added two new tabs to its translation function: "English (explained)? and "English (research).? The former will translate and then offer an explanation, and then provide sources to support its translation. The latter will do so more intensely. I put the sentence you provided in the latter mode, and it considers ?the term "jagr?" is likely a misspelling or variant of j?r?a, meaning "chronic" or "old," which is supported by the context where similar conditions are described as chronic or long-standing.? Here is its ?research? output for the phrase, which was generated nearly instantaneously (a remarkable tool that will change how we all are doing our work): Translation Original Sanskrit: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api ja?hara-gat?n Improved English Translation: Even diseases like chronic splenic disorders and hemorrhoids that are located in the abdomen. Analysis and Introduction The phrase "jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api ja?hara-gat?n" points to a class of chronic internal diseases, specifically highlighting splenic disorders (pl?ha) and hemorrhoids (ar?a), and emphasizing their location within the abdomen (ja?hara). The term "jagr?" is likely a misspelling or variant of j?r?a, meaning "chronic" or "old," which is supported by the context where similar conditions are described as chronic or long-standing. The api indicates "even" or "also," suggesting these are among other significant abdominal ailments. The provided context from Ayurvedic texts extensively lists various gastrointestinal and abdominal diseases, frequently mentioning spleen, hemorrhoids, and other internal disorders, often in relation to their chronic nature or their location in the abdomen. References from DharmaNexus Sanskrit Parallels The term "pl?ha" (spleen/splenic disorder) and "ar?a" (hemorrhoids) appear frequently in conjunction with other abdominal ailments. The suspected "jagr?" as a variant of j?r?a ("old, chronic") is also supported by its appearance in similar lists of diseases. V?gbha?a: A????gah?dayas?tra SA_GS40_vagaah_u:10894 : Original: udara? gulmam a??h?l?? t??yau ?opha? vi??cik?m / pl?hah?drogagudaj?n ud?varta? ca n??ayet // // Machine Translation: it destroys abdominal tumors, gulma, a kind of abdominal lump, hemorrhoids, inguinal swellings, edema, cholera, splenic disorders, heart disease, anal diseases, and udavarta. Note: Here, "pl?ha" appears with "gudaja" (anal diseases/hemorrhoids) within a list of abdominal conditions. V?gbha?a: A????gah?dayas?tra SA_GS40_vagaah_u:10625 : Original: pl?hap???v?maya?v?sagraha??rogak?sajit / Machine Translation: It cures spleen disorders, jaundice, asthma, Grahani diseases, and cough. Note: Directly mentions "pl?ha" (spleen disorders). V?gbha?a: A????gah?dayas?tra SA_GS40_vagaah_u:2457 : Original: j?r?ajvarodaragaracchardipl?hahal?mak?? // // j?r?ajvarodaracchardi / pl?h?n?hahal?mak?? / pl?hap???uhal?mak?? vidradhis timira? k?ca? syanda? pakv??ayavyath? / yoni?ukr??ray? rog?? ko??hag?? k?mayo vra??? // // yoni?ukragat? rog?? / yoni?ukr??ay? rog?? Machine Translation: Old fever, abdominal distension, vomiting, Spleen disorders, jaundice, anemia, Abcess, eye diseases, cataract, discharge, pain in the colon, Diseases of the vagina and semen, intestinal worms and ulcers, Diseases of the vagina and semen. Diseases of the vagina and semen. Note: "j?r?a" (old/chronic) is directly linked to "pl?ha" and other abdominal issues. The text explicitly mentions "pl?h?n?ha" (splenic enlargement/distension) and "ko??hag?? k?mayo" (worms in the abdomen). Su?ruta: Su?rutasa?hit? SA_GS40_susruta:11118 : Original: ar???si graha??do?am?n?ha? vi?amajvaram/ ka?hy?rup???hako??hasth?n v?tarog???ca n??ayet// Machine Translation: It cures hemorrhoids, grahani dosha, atisara, irregular fever, and vata disorders located in the hip, thigh, back and abdomen. Note: Explicitly mentions "ar???si" (hemorrhoids) and "ko??hasth?n" (located in the abdomen/chest). V?gbha?a: A????gah?dayas?tra SA_GS40_vagaah_u:614 : Original: graha??p???uku??h?r?a??opha?o?odarajvar?n / hanti gulmak?mipl?hna? ka??yaka?uv?tala? // // Machine Translation: It cures grahani, jaundice, leprosy, hemorrhoids, edema, wasting, abdominal tumors and fever. It destroys gulma, worms, and spleen, and is astringent, pungent, and agitating to vata. Note: Connects "ar?a" (hemorrhoids) and "pl?hna" (spleen) with "udara" (abdominal tumors). V?gbha?a: A????gah?dayas?tra SA_GS40_vagaah_u:12501 : Original: ja?ghorup?datrikap???hako??hah?dguhya??la? gurut?? vibandham / gulm??mavardhmagraha??gudotth??s t?s t??? ca rog?n kaphav?taj?t?n // // gulm??mavardhmagraha??vik?r??s / t??s t??? ca rog?n Machine Translation: It cures pain in the calves, thighs, feet, back, abdomen, heart, and genitals, heaviness, and constipation. And all the diseases arising from phlegm and wind, such as abdominal tumors, urinary calculi, enlarged spleen, and hemorrhoids. Abdominal tumors, urinary calculi, enlarged spleen, and various disorders, Note: "ko??ha" (abdomen) and mentions of "enlarged spleen" and "hemorrhoids" are present. Ugr?ditya: Kaly??ak?raka SA_GS40_kalyanakaraka:2420 : Original: p?tb? sauv?rami?ra? k?apayati yak?da???lagulm?gnim??dya? / k?sordhva?v?sa??l?vamathuja?harakuk?y?may?r?aplih?d?n // Machine Translation: When drunk mixed with Sauvira, it destroys liver, spleen, gulma, and indigestion. Cough, upward and downward breathing, pain, vomiting, abdominal distension, stomach disorders, hemorrhoids, spleen disorders, etc. Note: This passage includes "ja?hara-kuk?y?maya" (abdominal/stomach disorders), "ar?a" (hemorrhoids), and "plih?d?n" (spleen disorders, etc.). This is a very strong parallel for the entire phrase. sv?tm?r?ma: sv?tm?r?ma: ha?hayogaprad?pik? SA_MB_hathayogapradiipikaaHK:1868 : Original: gulmapl?h?dik?n rog?n jvara? pitta? k?udh?? t???m // vi???i ??tal?n?ma ku?bhikeya? niha?ti hi // // Machine Translation: Gulma, enlarged spleen and other diseases, fever, bile, hunger and thirst, This Kumbhaka named Sheeta-li destroys poisons. Note: Mentions "gulmapl?h?dik?n rog?n" (gulma, splenic and other diseases). Tibetan Parallels Tibetan texts also contain extensive lists of diseases, including those affecting the internal organs and abdomen, often mentioning tumors/enlargements (?????, skran) which can encompass splenic issues, and hemorrhoids (??????????, gzha? 'brum). The concept of "chronic" or "old" diseases is also present. yan lag brgyad pa'i snying po bsdus pa zhes bya ba (a????gah?dayasa?hit?-n?ma) BO_T13_D4310:242a-26 : Original: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Machine Translation: For those with hot body, frequent diarrhea, blood and bile disorders, heart disease, severe edema, and contagious fevers, tumors, urinary obstruction, jaundice, and so on, all diseases arising from bile are conquered. Note: "?????" (skran) refers to tumors, which can include splenic enlargements. yan lag brgyad pa'i snying po bsdus pa zhes bya ba (a????gah?dayasa?hit?-n?ma) BO_T13_D4310:199a-6 : Original: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Machine Translation: It conquers indigestion, phlegm, dyspnea, loss of appetite, tumors, and liver disorders, stomach disorders, heart disease, and ascites. Note: Again, "?????" (skran) for tumors/growths, often associated with internal organs like the spleen or liver. yan lag brgyad pa'i snying po zhes bya ba'i sman dpyad kyi bshad pa (a????gah?dayan?mavai??ryakabh??ya) BO_T13_D4311-2:176a-17 : Original: ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Machine Translation: Furthermore, it cures the five types of phlegm disorders, wasting diseases, asthma, hiccups, contagious fevers, tumors, urinary disorders, stomach disorders, hemorrhoids, heart disease, It is beneficial for loss of appetite and for treating colds. Note: This text lists both "?????" (skran - tumors, referring to internal growths like splenic enlargements) and "??????????" (gzha? 'brum - hemorrhoids) alongside stomach disorders (??????????, pho ba'i nad). This is a strong parallel. Chinese Parallels Chinese medical texts from Buddhist contexts also provide similar enumerations of diseases, often including internal masses/tumors and anal issues. ????????? ?1? (T20 1092_001) ZH_T20_1092_012:0287b29_10 : Original: ????????? ????????? ????????? ????????? Machine Translation: Rheumatism, scabies, malignant sores, poisonous swellings, boils, hemorrhoids, leprosy, headaches, throat swelling, mouth sores, eye, ear, nose, and tongue diseases, teeth, lips, heart, abdomen, hypochondriac pain, and dysentery. Note: "??" (zh? b?ng) means hemorrhoids. "????" (x?nf? xi?np?) refers to diseases of the heart and abdomen, with "xi?np?" often describing hypochondriac pain or abdominal masses. ???????? ?1? (T19 0982_001) ZH_T19_0982_003:0438b22_14 : Original: ????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Machine Translation: Moreover, all evil illnesses: Itches, scabies, sores, hemorrhoids, boils, and the skin becomes dark and rough, food and drink are not digested, headaches, half-body pain, pain in the eyes, ears, nose, lips, mouth, cheeks, teeth, tongue, and throat, pain in the chest, sides, back, heart, stomach, waist, hips, and knees, pain in the hands, feet, four limbs, and private parts, emaciation, wasting, and pain all over the body - such pains cannot violate or transgress, and one will be able to be far away from them. Note: "??" (zh?l?u) refers to hemorrhoids/fistulas. "???" (p? x? t?ng) includes spleen pain. "????" (x?nd? y?oku?) includes heart and abdomen. ?????? ?1? (T15 0618_001) ZH_T15_0618_002:0315c09_14 : Original: ??????????????? Machine Translation: The tirya resembles a fruit, and the khanda resembles a boil, both being inside the abdomen. Note: Explicitly mentions internal abdominal growths ("??," f?n?i - inside the abdomen). Further References The secondary literature provided does not directly reference the specific phrase "jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api ja?hara-gat?n" or its immediate components. Most of the high-relevance scores are for texts containing words that are graphically similar to parts of the phrase (e.g., "j?tam" for "jagr?," "j?vite" for "jagr?," or "jaga" for parts of "jagr?"). While these do not provide direct semantic insight into the phrase, their high relevance scores suggest a phonetic or orthographic similarity that the search algorithm picked up. The lack of direct hits in secondary literature highlights that this specific phrasing might be less common or uniquely used in the primary text. The primary text analysis, particularly from V?gbha?a and Ugr?ditya, remains the most valuable source for interpreting this medical term. Best wishes, Dan > On Aug 5, 2025, at 11:55?PM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api ja?hara-gat?n -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 12:46:04 2025 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 14:46:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> I connect jagr? with the kitul palm sugar (kitul juggery). It is used in Ayurveda. And I eat it always for my tea. Heiner Am 06.08.2025 um 05:55 schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY: > I have not been able to find the medical term "jagr?"?in any source > available to me. It occurs in verse 2.111c of the /K?lacakra-tantra/ > (so in all manuscripts). It is in the phrase: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api > ja?hara-gat?n. So it refers to either an organ or a disease found in > the stomach area, along with pl?ha (i.e., pl?han, spleen) and ar?a > (for ar?as, hemorrhoids). I am seeking a source for it in any Sanskrit > medical treatise,?and hopefully its meaning. > > Thank you, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Wed Aug 6 12:53:21 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 12:53:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> Message-ID: <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> I thought of that, too, Heiner, but I don't think that it can apply in the 10th c., when the text was probably composed. Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Professor emeritus Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris Associate The University of Chicago Divinity School Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. On Wednesday, August 6th, 2025 at 2:46 PM, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY wrote: > I connect jagr? with the kitul palm sugar (kitul juggery). It is used in Ayurveda. And I eat it always for my tea. > > Heiner > > Am 06.08.2025 um 05:55 schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY: > >> I have not been able to find the medical term "jagr?" in any source available to me. It occurs in verse 2.111c of the K?lacakra-tantra (so in all manuscripts). It is in the phrase: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api ja?hara-gat?n. So it refers to either an organ or a disease found in the stomach area, along with pl?ha (i.e., pl?han, spleen) and ar?a (for ar?as, hemorrhoids). I am seeking a source for it in any Sanskrit medical treatise, and hopefully its meaning. >> >> Thank you, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kiefferpuelz at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:48:21 2025 From: kiefferpuelz at gmail.com (Kie Pue) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 16:48:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] JPTS upload in Heidelberg Message-ID: <7FFE1849-5859-4994-B73D-966486271870@gmail.com> Dear colleagues, this is to inform you that volumes 20 to 35 (1994?2024) of the Journal of the Pali Text Society have been uploaded on the Heidelberg Asian Studies Publishing Server of the University library in Heidelberg as an open access journal. https://hasp.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/journals/jpts/index The remaining volumes will be uploaded after the IABS conference, and any new volumes after they appeared in print. Best wishes, Petra Kieffer-P?lz ********************* Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Pali Text Society Honorary Secretary Email: kiefferpuelz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at ualberta.ca Wed Aug 6 22:56:25 2025 From: wujastyk at ualberta.ca (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 16:56:25 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: INDOLOGY list--Atharvaveda 4vols In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please reply directly to the author. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Chandan R. Narayan Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 at 10:11 Subject: INDOLOGY list--Atharvaveda 4vols To: wujastyk at ualberta.ca Dear [colleagues], I was once a Sanskrit student at UC Berkeley (1990s) and collected many books. I am in the process of giving away and selling some Sanskrit books (housed at my parent's house in the bay area) and wanted to offer, to anyone interested, a 4 volume Atharvaveda (with Sayana), 19th c. Nirnayasagar press, for the cost of shipping from California. I used to be a member of the Indology list, but no longer am .... Thanks, Chandan Narayan ==================================== Chandan Narayan Associate Professor Linguistics and Speech & Language Sciences Speech Acoustics and Perception Lab DLLL, York University chandann at yorku.ca ch-narayan.github.io (416) 736-2100 x33791/33076 (office/lab) ==================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 04:08:13 2025 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 22:08:13 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: Thank you very much, Dan, Heiner, and Matthew, for your replies. Dan, what the Dharmamitra.org site came up with is truly amazing. I had no idea that such a research tool existed. It greatly helped to explain why the various Tibetan translations of jagr? and pl?han are so mutually contradictory. There is no doubt that jagr? is the correct word. We have very old palm-leaf manuscripts from near the time the *K?lacakra-tantra* and its *Vimalaprabh?* commentary were written, circa 1025-1040 CE, and they all agree on this spelling. This word must have been taken from some medical text then available. The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated jagr? as mcher pa, "spleen." The Rwa translation translated jagr? as skran, "tumor." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated jagr? as dmu chu, "edema," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. The Sarnath Sanskrit edition of the *Vimalaprabh?* put yak?t in parentheses after jagr?, thus thinking it means "liver." The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated pl?han, "spleen," as mchin pa, "liver." The Rwa translation translated pl?han as mchin nad, "liver disease." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated pl?han as skran, "tumor," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. None of the four available Tibetan translations took pl?han as "spleen." The *Vimalaprabh?* commentary has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?ni, which seems to gloss jagr? as jalodara, "edema" (literally, "water belly"). There is no other occurrence of the word jagr? in the *K?lacakra-tantra* or *Vimalaprabh?*. It would be very helpful to find what medical text the term jagr? was taken from. With thanks and best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 05:10:57 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 05:10:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Rayamukuta=27s_Padacandrik=C4=81=2C_ed=2E_K?= =?utf-8?q?ali_Kumar_Datta=2C_vol=2E_3?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Through the kindness of Dr. Dhaval Patel, I have just received pdfs of volumes 1 and 2 of the following 3-volume edition: Padacandrik? on the Amarako?a by R?yamuku?a (Text & the Commentary) Edited by Kali Kumar Dutta, Sastri, Sanskrit College, Calcutta Calcutta Sanskrit College Research Series no. 48, 86, 126. Can anyone oblige me with a complete set, or at least a scan of volume 3? Many thanks. Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Thu Aug 7 05:46:45 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2025 05:46:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: Dear David, On a hunch, I looked into Farsi possibilities and found ??? jigar meaning liver. I think this may solve your mystery. I thought of this because my current project on the Yuddhajaya-svarodaya revealed a curious connection with west Asian - Aramaic or Arabic - materials. all best, Matthew On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 06:09, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 06:09, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < wrote: > Thank you very much, Dan, Heiner, and Matthew, for your replies. Dan, what the Dharmamitra.org site came up with is truly amazing. I had no idea that such a research tool existed. It greatly helped to explain why the various Tibetan translations of jagr ? and pl ?han are so mutually contradictory. > > There is no doubt that jagr ? is the correct word. We have very old palm-leaf manuscripts from near the time the K?lacakra-tantra and its Vimalaprabh? commentary were written, circa 1025-1040 CE, and they all agree on this spelling. This word must have been taken from some medical text then available. > > The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated jagr ? as mcher pa, "spleen." The Rwa translation translated jagr ? as skran, "tumor." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated jagr ? as dmu chu, "edema," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. The Sarnath Sanskrit edition of the Vimalaprabh? put yak ?t in parentheses after jagr ?, thus thinking it means "liver." > > The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated pl ?han, "spleen," as mchin pa, "liver." The Rwa translation translated pl ?han as mchin nad, "liver disease." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated pl ?han as skran, "tumor," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. None of the four available Tibetan translations took pl ?han as "spleen." > > The Vimalaprabh? commentary has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar ? d ? ni, which seems to gloss jagr ? as jalodara, "edema" (literally, "water belly"). There is no other occurrence of the word jagr? in the K?lacakra-tantra or Vimalaprabh?. > > It would be very helpful to find what medical text the term jagr? was taken from. > > With thanks and best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nina.mirnig at googlemail.com Thu Aug 7 11:28:55 2025 From: nina.mirnig at googlemail.com (Nina Mirnig) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 13:28:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] University of Vienna: Job announcement University Assistant Predoc Message-ID: Dear colleagues, the University of Vienna is advertising a four-year predoctoral position (Universit?tsassistent/in Praedoc; University Assistant Predoc) in Pre-modern South Asian Studies (Indology) at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies. For further details, please see the attachment or the website of the University's Job Center at: https://jobs.univie.ac.at/job/University-assistant-predoctoral/1234132601/ Applications have to be submitted via the Job Center no later than September 05, 2025. Please kindly publicise this advertisement at your institution and forward it to qualified candidates. With best wishes, Nina ??? Univ.-Prof. Dr. Nina Mirnig BA MSt DPhil (Oxon) University of Vienna Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Address: Spitalgasse 2, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria Phone: +43-1-4277-43511 ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PraeDoc am ISTB_DE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 938554 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PraeDoc at the ISTB_EN.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 932593 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 12:08:28 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 15:08:28 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Toshifumi gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Reigle was interested in Got??s paper on RV 10,72, read at the 14th World Sanskrit Conference in Kyoto in 2009. Per-Johan Norelius, too, was earlier seeking for a copy of this paper. As it apparently was not printed ? none of the Proceedings of the Conference contains it ?, I made a scan of the six pages of the handout, which cover the entire talk. The attached .tiff file contains all the 6 pages in one document. I could not convert it into a pdf file, but at least in my MacBook Air it opens. With best wishes, Asko https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rl83he5jdv4jpofn0xddq/Got-T-2009-on-RV-10-72.tiff?rlkey=kmtlrea6zy6q4ed1ct6ejwcde&st=x1i1exvq&dl=0? Got? T 2009 on RV 10,72.tiff dropbox.com > On 7. Aug 2025, at 11.36, Michael Witzel wrote: > > Like Harry and Asko, I received the news of the passing, on July 19, of my old friend Toshifumi from his wife Junko a few days ago. I was aware of his two year struggle with cancer but the end came as a great shock: in spite of many procedures in various research institutions, the spread of his disease could not be stopped. Even then, he persevered tireless in his work, until the very end, such as with a Japanese translation of his important update of Old Indo-Aryan morphology and its Indo-Iranian background. > > We both can look back to many decades of friendship and collaboration, in Europe and > Japan, last during our concurrent stay at the Buddhist Postgraduate College in Tokyo and at the Veda conference organized by Eijiro Doyama at Osaka in the spring of 2023. > As outlined by Harry and Asko, his contributions do not only cover Vedic, Avestan, Indo-Iranian and Indo-European linguistics and philology but also many aspects of the religious developments of these periods, -- often with surprising new insights that had escaped us for long (Videgha, Yaj?avalkya, Varu?a etc.). > > We will remember him and his oeuvre as long as we live and I am sure that many on this list will agree. I hope that his friends and colleagues will set up and contribute to a Gedenkschrift soon. > > Michael Witzel > > (residence: Zushi, Japan) > > >> On Aug 6, 2025, at 19:04, Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> Old Indo-Aryan morphology and its Indo-Iranian background > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rl83he5jdv4jpofn0xddq.png Type: image/png Size: 240274 bytes Desc: not available URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Thu Aug 7 12:22:53 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 12:22:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: Dear Matthew, Westward, the same Persian word has made way into my native Macedonian through Ottoman Turkish: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%9F%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B5%D1%80 Best wishes Aleksandar Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, August 7, 2025 1:46:45 AM To: David and Nancy Reigle Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the medical term jagr?? Dear David, On a hunch, I looked into Farsi possibilities and found ??? jigar meaning liver. I think this may solve your mystery. I thought of this because my current project on the Yuddhajaya-svarodaya revealed a curious connection with west Asian - Aramaic or Arabic - materials. all best, Matthew On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 06:09, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY > wrote: Thank you very much, Dan, Heiner, and Matthew, for your replies. Dan, what the Dharmamitra.org site came up with is truly amazing. I had no idea that such a research tool existed. It greatly helped to explain why the various Tibetan translations of jagr ? and pl ?han are so mutually contradictory. There is no doubt that jagr ? is the correct word. We have very old palm-leaf manuscripts from near the time the K?lacakra-tantra and its Vimalaprabh? commentary were written, circa 1025-1040 CE, and they all agree on this spelling. This word must have been taken from some medical text then available. The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated jagr ? as mcher pa, "spleen." The Rwa translation translated jagr ? as skran, "tumor." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated jagr ? as dmu chu, "edema," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. The Sarnath Sanskrit edition of the Vimalaprabh? put yak ?t in parentheses after jagr ?, thus thinking it means "liver." The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated pl ?han, "spleen," as mchin pa, "liver." The Rwa translation translated pl ?han as mchin nad, "liver disease." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated pl ?han as skran, "tumor," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. None of the four available Tibetan translations took pl ?han as "spleen." The Vimalaprabh? commentary has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar ? d ? ni, which seems to gloss jagr ? as jalodara, "edema" (literally, "water belly"). There is no other occurrence of the word jagr? in the K?lacakra-tantra or Vimalaprabh?. It would be very helpful to find what medical text the term jagr? was taken from. With thanks and best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlharris at ucdavis.edu Thu Aug 7 12:24:15 2025 From: wlharris at ucdavis.edu (Westin Harris) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 18:09:15 +0545 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Tora=E1=B9=87a_as_an_adjective=3F?= Message-ID: Dear INDOLOGists, I'm curious to know more about how ????/*tora?a* and ????????/*tora??tma* are working in these example verses from a text I'm working on (see attached screenshot). For context, the text is a late medieval/early modern sthana-mahatmya from the environs of present-day Mangaluru. It seems to be an adjective and/or apposition in the descriptions of various divine or semi-divine beings. Some guesses include something like "big," "chief," or "elevated" (??). I am aware of the architectural significance of the word ????/*tora?a*, but there seems to be some other intended significance here. I had asked this question on Facebook several years ago. Dr. P?ter-D?niel Sz?nt? was generous to suggest looking into Dravidian dictionaries. But even with the help of the peerless Dr. Jason Schwartz, we found nothing of note. I am now revising my dissertation chapter devoted to this text, so the issue has raised its head once again. Thanks! PS. I know that ??????? (49.21) is almost certainly the proper name of a demon tamed by a *siddha* in a previous section of the text, but I've still included it because it could share some significance with the other examples. *Sincerely,* *Westin Harris* Ph.D. Candidate Study of Religion University of California, Davis https://religionsgrad.ucdavis.edu/people/westin-harris 2021 Dissertation Fellow, The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Program in Buddhist Studies Sarva Mangalam. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0484.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 149728 bytes Desc: not available URL: From satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr Thu Aug 7 14:42:51 2025 From: satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 16:42:51 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Toshifumi gone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a link to a pdf of this paper (converted from Asko Parpola's .tiff file). https://filesender.renater.fr/?s=download&token=8c8e94bb-9de0-4204-b90e-5b1fe6941a33 Hope this helps, Best, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 07/08/2025 ? 14:08, Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > David Reigle was interested in Got??s paper on RV 10,72, read at the 14th World Sanskrit Conference in Kyoto in 2009. Per-Johan Norelius, too, was earlier seeking for a copy of this paper. > As it apparently was not printed ? none of the Proceedings of the Conference contains it ?, I made a scan of the six pages of the handout, which cover the entire talk. The attached .tiff file > contains all the 6 pages in one document. I could not convert it into a pdf file, but at least in my MacBook Air it opens. > > With best wishes, Asko > > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rl83he5jdv4jpofn0xddq/Got-T-2009-on-RV-10-72.tiff?rlkey=kmtlrea6zy6q4ed1ct6ejwcde&st=x1i1exvq&dl=0? > Got? T 2009 on RV 10,72.tiff > dropbox.com > > >> On 7. Aug 2025, at 11.36, Michael Witzel wrote: >> >> Like Harry and Asko, I received the news of the passing, on July 19, of my old friend Toshifumi from his wife Junko a few days ago. I was aware of his two year struggle with cancer but the end came as a great shock: in spite of many procedures in various research institutions, the spread of his disease could not be stopped. Even then, he persevered tireless in his work, until the very end, such as with a Japanese translation of his important update of Old Indo-Aryan morphology and its Indo-Iranian background. >> >> We both can look back to many decades of friendship and collaboration, in Europe and >> Japan, last during our concurrent stay at the Buddhist Postgraduate College in Tokyo and at the Veda conference organized by Eijiro Doyama at Osaka in the spring of 2023. >> As outlined by Harry and Asko, his contributions do not only cover Vedic, Avestan, Indo-Iranian and Indo-European linguistics and philology but also many aspects of the religious developments of these periods, -- often with surprising new insights that had escaped us for long (Videgha, Yaj?avalkya, Varu?a etc.). >> >> We will remember him and his oeuvre as long as we live and I am sure that many on this list will agree. I hope that his friends and colleagues will set up and contribute to a Gedenkschrift soon. >> >> Michael Witzel >> >> (residence: Zushi, Japan) >> >> >>> On Aug 6, 2025, at 19:04, Asko Parpola via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> >>> Old Indo-Aryan morphology and its Indo-Iranian background > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** From kiefferpuelz at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 15:00:20 2025 From: kiefferpuelz at gmail.com (Kie Pue) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 17:00:20 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] JPTS vol. 36 (2025) Message-ID: Dear colleagues, The Pali Text Society is pleased to announce the publication of volume 36 of the Journal of the Pali Text Society. This volume is published online on the Heidelberg Asian Studies Publishing server as an open access journal: https://hasp.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/journals/jpts/issue/view/1659 Contents of volume 36 Sodo Mori ??? (1934?2025) (Norihisa Baba) For the Sake of the Prosperity and Splendour of the Most Excellent Teaching?: The Burmese Sa?ghar?ja ????bhiva?sa?s Letter to the Monastic Community of Lanka (Jens W. Borgland) Qualities of Distinction: A New Perspective on the dhuta?gas in the P?li Canon (Oliver Freiberger) Conceptualising the World in Pali Literature (Alastair Gornall) An Early Religious and Historical Tradition of Laos: The A??habh?gabuddhar?panid?na of Ariyava?sa (Javier Schnake) Storytelling in the P?li Nik?yas: the Particle kho and the Textual Cycle of the Sick Monk (Eviatar Shulman) Pali mu??ha, mussati, mosa, and Related Words (Martin Straube) A Note on the Title and Date of Dharmananda Kosambi?s Navan?ta??k? (Truptirani B. Tayade and Mahesh A. Deokar) Hard copies of JPTS volume 36 will be available for purchase on the PTS website in September. Best, Petra Kieffer-P?lz (Pali Text Society) ********************* Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz Cranachstr. 9 99423 Weimar Germany Email: kiefferpuelz at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 15:00:12 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 09:00:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with Manuscript source In-Reply-To: <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> References: <3D1ACD0E-7FA7-4FAD-A27D-198745E1965D@uclouvain.be> <84e8847507a941c7ad6e53b31a18b373@hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: To answer to your question, Ken, I don't know, and the script, size (yellow), and general appearance is very generic. North India, early nineteenth century, would be my guess. Just for fun, I gave your manuscript to the OCR function at Dharmamitra. This was the result: ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????????? ?? ???? ????????????????? ?? ???? ?????? ??. ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??. ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ???? ????? ?? ? ???? ????????? While it's very imperfect, I'm amazed it can do anything at all! It's always been my conviction that OCR would never deal with manuscripts, but I think it's time to change my mind. Since Dharmamitra "knows" Sanskrit and can refer to a language corpus, it can probably start to recognize text fragments and make informed guesses about what illegible ak?aras might be. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Sat, 2 Aug 2025 at 22:13, Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear List, > > > > The following folio is the first of eight with a drawing of a bird and > accompanying text in Hindi. I should appreciate it if some one could > identify where this manuscript comes from. > > Many thanks, > > Ken > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3882284 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 15:58:42 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 09:58:42 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: This strikes me as certainly the right answer, Matthew; thank you for finding it! It's really interesting to see a Farsi medical loanword in the tenth-eleventh century KCT. Just to confirm, the term jagr? does not appear in the ninth century MS of the *Su?rutasa?hit?* (or in later versions of the text available to me). Nor do I find it in the etext versions of *any* classical ?yurvedic text. Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 16:07:17 2025 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 10:07:17 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CHSTM History of Science in Early South Asia: call for presentations Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Lisa Brooks and I are currently working on the schedule of the forthcoming season of our online group "History of Science in Early South Asia"with the Consortium for the History of Science and Medicine . See https://www.chstm.org/group/history-science-early-south-asia The working group brings together scholars who study the history of science in South Asia before about 1800 and as discoverable from literatures in Sanskrit and other indigenous Indian languages. We have had talks on mathematics, medicine, astronomy, alchemy, metallurgy and others so far. The group meets monthly during the academic year. We welcome the presentation of individual and group work-in-progress, facilitated discussions of published articles and books, and focused reading sessions in Indic languages. We still have several open slots for the new season, starting in September. Please get in touch with Lisa and me if you would like to present or discuss your research. We welcome both new and established scholars. Kind regards, Dagmar (and Lisa) Dagmar Wujastyk Associate Professor, History, Classics, and Religion, University of Alberta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 16:45:03 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 10:45:03 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CHSTM History of Science in Early South Asia: call for presentations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would like to make a presentation about two issues relating to the history of the Compendium of Su?ruta. 1. Candra?a's (fl. ca. 900-1050) relationship to the Su?rutasa?hit? 2. What can we learn when the *Su?rutasa?hit?* says, "some say that ..."? These topics will be presented in a manner accessible to the non-specialist. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 at 10:09, Dagmar Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Lisa Brooks and I are currently working on the schedule of the forthcoming > season of our online group "History of Science in Early South Asia"with the > Consortium for the History of Science and Medicine . See > https://www.chstm.org/group/history-science-early-south-asia > > The working group brings together scholars who study the history of > science in South Asia before about 1800 and as discoverable from > literatures in Sanskrit and other indigenous Indian languages. We have had > talks on mathematics, medicine, astronomy, alchemy, metallurgy and others > so far. The group meets monthly during the academic year. We welcome the > presentation of individual and group work-in-progress, facilitated > discussions of published articles and books, and focused reading sessions > in Indic languages. > > We still have several open slots for the new season, starting in > September. Please get in touch with Lisa and me if you would like to > present or discuss your research. We welcome both new and established > scholars. > > Kind regards, > Dagmar (and Lisa) > > Dagmar Wujastyk > Associate Professor, History, Classics, and Religion, University of Alberta > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 17:10:13 2025 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 11:10:13 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CHSTM History of Science in Early South Asia: call for presentations In-Reply-To: <7a9aac3a-5162-4b72-a8ee-1e72f206885c@univ-reims.fr> References: <7a9aac3a-5162-4b72-a8ee-1e72f206885c@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Dear all, May I ask you to respond off-list, writing to me and Lisa directly: d.wujastyk at gmail.com and lisallette at gmail.com Many thanks! Dagmar On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 at 10:50, Satyanad Kichenassamy < satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > Thanks for the announcement. > > If you wish, I could explain some of my recent work on the developement > of mathematics as apodictic discourse in India. Most of the relevant > papers since 2006, except the most recent ones, may be downloaded from > my web page (see the signature below). For the ones I haven't yet put on > a reprint server, here is a link > > > https://filesender.renater.fr/?s=download&token=7ebd10a4-5b1e-4005-bdc1-70500af755c0 > > The languages of the texts studied include Sanskrit and Tamil, as well > as Pali & Chinese (we translated for the first time a Chinese text on > the reception of Indian mathematics in the 6th c.). The conclusions that > admit of generalization to other cultural areas are relevant for > mathematical texts in Italian, German, Russian,... but these mostly do > not deal with South Asia. > > Possible topics on which these papers have provided new information > could include the following, mostly based on Sanskrit texts: > > - how the theorem on the square of the diagonal of an oblong was stated > and derived in India > > - the relation between the invention of mathematics as discourse and > Indian theories of ritual > > - the invention of the positional system with zero and writing in India, > on the basis of Sanskrit and Tamil sources > > - mathematics of the Vedic period as the foundation of later Indian > mathematics > > Let me know if any of these (or other issues related to these papers) is > of interest to your project. By the way, I will be teaching a course at > the Sorbonne in Paris starting October 17 (hybrid mode, in French & > English) on some of these issues. Details are on my web page. Of course, > feel free to forward the information to any interested people. > > With best wishes, > > Satyanad Kichenassamy > > Le 07/08/2025 ? 18:07, Dagmar Wujastyk via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > Dear colleagues, > > > > Lisa Brooks and I are currently working on the schedule of the > forthcoming > > season of our online group "History of Science in Early South Asia"with > the > > Consortium for the History of Science and Medicine . See > > https://www.chstm.org/group/history-science-early-south-asia > > > > The working group brings together scholars who study the history of > science > > in South Asia before about 1800 and as discoverable from literatures in > > Sanskrit and other indigenous Indian languages. We have had talks on > > mathematics, medicine, astronomy, alchemy, metallurgy and others so far. > > The group meets monthly during the academic year. We welcome the > > presentation of individual and group work-in-progress, facilitated > > discussions of published articles and books, and focused reading sessions > > in Indic languages. > > > > We still have several open slots for the new season, starting in > September. > > Please get in touch with Lisa and me if you would like to present or > > discuss your research. We welcome both new and established scholars. > > > > Kind regards, > > Dagmar (and Lisa) > > > > Dagmar Wujastyk > > Associate Professor, History, Classics, and Religion, University of > Alberta > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > ********************************************** > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > Professor of Mathematics > Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) > and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) > Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > France > Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > ********************************************** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 03:49:12 2025 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 21:49:12 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: A big thank you to all who have replied to my question, all helpful. Since Dominik has kindly verified that the term jagr? does not occur in the etext versions of *any* classical ?yurvedic text, and that it does not occur in the ninth century MS of the *Su?rutasa?hit?*, we may accept Matthew's good suggestion that it comes from the Farsi word jigar. Now the question is: What Persian medical text would have been available in India in the 10th-11th century? Thank you, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:58?AM Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > This strikes me as certainly the right answer, Matthew; thank you for > finding it! It's really interesting to see a Farsi medical loanword in the > tenth-eleventh century KCT. Just to confirm, the term jagr? does not > appear in the ninth century MS of the *Su?rutasa?hit?* (or in later > versions of the text available to me). Nor do I find it in the etext > versions of *any* classical ?yurvedic text. > Best, > Dominik > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 08:16:06 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 08:16:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: Dear David and all, I rather doubt that searching for a Persian medical text will be very useful. As Aleksandar and Agnes point out, the word was very widely borrowed, so it may not have come directly from a Persian source. An even in Persian, it seems to have been in use from at least Middle Persian on. The form you find in the KCT, jagrI, moreover, suggests that it was likely not a literary transliteration in this case. So the question to ask is why, of all the Persian words there are, was the word for liver, it seems, particularly widely diffused? I have no idea, but if you search "Iranian street food" you will find that liver dishes are quite prominent, so I suppose that culinary culture is as good a bet as any. happy hunting, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Professor emeritus Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris Associate The University of Chicago Divinity School Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. On Friday, August 8th, 2025 at 5:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > A big thank you to all who have replied to my question, all helpful. Since Dominik has kindly verified that the term jagr? does not occur in the etext versions of any classical ?yurvedic text, and that it does not occur in the ninth century MS of the Su?rutasa?hit?, we may accept Matthew's good suggestion that it comes from the Farsi word jigar. Now the question is: What Persian medical text would have been available in India in the 10th-11th century? > > Thank you, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:58?AM Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > >> This strikes me as certainly the right answer, Matthew; thank you for finding it! It's really interesting to see a Farsi medical loanword in the tenth-eleventh century KCT. Just to confirm, the term jagr? does not appear in the ninth century MS of the Su?rutasa?hit? (or in later versions of the text available to me). Nor do I find it in the etext versions of any classical ?yurvedic text. >> Best, >> Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scavaliere at unior.it Fri Aug 8 09:08:33 2025 From: scavaliere at unior.it (Stefania Cavaliere) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 09:08:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?International_Conference=C2=A0_=E2=80=9CFro?= =?utf-8?q?m_Coast_to_Coast=3A_Folklore_and_the_Cultural_Lives_of_the_West?= =?utf-8?q?ern_Indian_Ocean=E2=80=9D_=2820-21_November_2025=29_=E2=80=93_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCcTOKAmU9yaWVudGFsZeKAnSBVbml2ZXJzaXR5IG9mIE5hcGxlcywgSXRh?= =?utf-8?q?ly?= Message-ID: Dear list members, We are happy to announce that the International Conference ?From Coast to Coast: Folklore and the Cultural Lives of the Western Indian Ocean? will be held at ?L?Orientale? University of Naples, Italy on 20-21 November 2025. We invite submissions of abstracts. If you wish to give a presentation, please submit your application to the email address annalisa.bocchetti at unior.it by 30th August 2025. Details of the call are shared below and in the attached file: Submission of papers: If you wish to present a paper, please submit a 300-word abstract to the email address annalisa.bocchetti at unior.it by 30th August 2025. You will be notified of your results by 15th September. Subjects We invite scholars to explore the dynamic and entangled cultural histories of the Western Indian Ocean through the lens of folklore. Focusing on the region stretching from the Persian Gulf and Eastern Africa to the Middle East and western South Asia, the conference seeks to interrogate how folkloric expressions (textual, oral, performative, musical, and material) mediate processes of cultural encounter, transformation, and negotiation across maritime worlds. We invite paper proposals that engage with one or more of the following interconnected themes, which will structure the conference?s sessions: 1 Folklore as Archive: Performance, Resistance, and Maritime Networks 2 Seafaring Knowledge and Narratives of the Sea 3 Material Cultures and Maritime Worlds Please find more details in the attached file. ?????? Presentation If your abstract is accepted, you will be allowed a slot of 20 minutes for presentation followed by 10 minutes for questions. Scientific committee: Annalisa Bocchetti (?L?Orientale? University of Naples), Stefania Cavaliere (?L?Orientale? University of Naples), Daniela De Simone (Ghent University), Sabir Badal Khan (?L?Orientale? University of Naples) If you have any questions, please don?t hesitate to contact us at annalisa.bocchetti at unior.it. Best regards, Stefania Cavaliere -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Folklore Conference 2025_Call for Abstracts.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 435050 bytes Desc: Folklore Conference 2025_Call for Abstracts.pdf URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 12:50:06 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 12:50:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article search Message-ID: Dear friends, I would be most grateful if someone can share with me soft copies of these articles : Sarma, S. R. 2012. ?Yantrar?ja for D?modara, The Earliest Extant Sanskrit Astrolabe', in J.-M. Delire (ed.) Astronomy and Mathematics in Ancient India - Astronomie et math?matiques de l'Inde ancienne Actes de la journ?e d'?tudes organis?e le 24 avril 2009 ? l'Universit? Libre de Bruxelles, Peeters. Sarma, S. R. 2012. ?The Gurumukhi Astrolabe of the Maharaja of Patiala' in Indian Journal of History of Science, vol. 47. no 1. 63-92. With thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Paris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 12:58:41 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 05:58:41 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: Here is a last ditch suggestion. Could the Sanskrit word *yakr?t *for liver have been turned into *jagr? *in the local vernacular and then used again in a Sanskrit text. The Hindi word for liver is *jigar*, yes. In any case, the phonetic connection between these two words seems inescapable to me. Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 1:16?AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear David and all, > > I rather doubt that searching for a Persian medical text will be very > useful. As Aleksandar and Agnes point out, the word was very widely > borrowed, so it may not have come directly from a Persian source. An even > in Persian, it seems to have been in use from at least Middle Persian on. > The form you find in the KCT, jagrI, moreover, suggests that it was likely > not a literary transliteration in this case. > > So the question to ask is why, of all the Persian words there are, was the > word for liver, it seems, particularly widely diffused? I have no idea, but > if you search "Iranian street food" you will find that liver dishes are > quite prominent, so I suppose that culinary culture is as good a bet as any. > > happy hunting, > Matthew > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Professor emeritus > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris > > Associate > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences > > https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein > > https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ > > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 > > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 > > https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. > > On Friday, August 8th, 2025 at 5:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle < > dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: > > A big thank you to all who have replied to my question, all helpful. Since > Dominik has kindly verified that the term jagr? does not occur in the > etext versions of *any* classical ?yurvedic text, and that it does not > occur in the ninth century MS of the *Su?rutasa?hit?*, we may accept > Matthew's good suggestion that it comes from the Farsi word jigar. Now the > question is: What Persian medical text would have been available in India > in the 10th-11th century? > > Thank you, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:58?AM Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> This strikes me as certainly the right answer, Matthew; thank you for >> finding it! It's really interesting to see a Farsi medical loanword in the >> tenth-eleventh century KCT. Just to confirm, the term jagr? does not appear >> in the ninth century MS of the *Su?rutasa?hit?* (or in later versions of >> the text available to me). Nor do I find it in the etext versions of >> *any* classical ?yurvedic text. >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 13:15:26 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:15:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> Message-ID: <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> Hi Madhav, David may correct me, but I don?t think y/j equivalence is current in the KCT and it is well known to have some connections with materials from further West, and to be responding to to some degree Islam. best Matthew Sent from [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) for iOS On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 14:59, Madhav Deshpande <[mmdesh at umich.edu](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 14:59, Madhav Deshpande < wrote: > Here is a last ditch suggestion. Could the Sanskrit word yakr?t for liver have been turned into jagr? in the local vernacular and then used again in a Sanskrit text. The Hindi word for liver is jigar, yes. In any case, the phonetic connection between these two words seems inescapable to me. Best, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 1:16?AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear David and all, >> >> I rather doubt that searching for a Persian medical text will be very useful. As Aleksandar and Agnes point out, the word was very widely borrowed, so it may not have come directly from a Persian source. An even in Persian, it seems to have been in use from at least Middle Persian on. The form you find in the KCT, jagrI, moreover, suggests that it was likely not a literary transliteration in this case. >> >> So the question to ask is why, of all the Persian words there are, was the word for liver, it seems, particularly widely diffused? I have no idea, but if you search "Iranian street food" you will find that liver dishes are quite prominent, so I suppose that culinary culture is as good a bet as any. >> >> happy hunting, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Professor emeritus >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris >> >> Associate >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >> Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences >> >> https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein >> >> https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ >> >> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 >> >> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 >> >> https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 >> >> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. >> >> On Friday, August 8th, 2025 at 5:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle < dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> A big thank you to all who have replied to my question, all helpful. Since Dominik has kindly verified that the term jagr ? does not occur in the etext versions of any classical ?yurvedic text, and that it does not occur in the ninth century MS of the Su?rutasa?hit?, we may accept Matthew's good suggestion that it comes from the Farsi word jigar. Now the question is: What Persian medical text would have been available in India in the 10th-11th century? >>> >>> Thank you, >>> >>> David Reigle >>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:58?AM Dominik Wujastyk < wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> This strikes me as certainly the right answer, Matthew; thank you for finding it! It's really interesting to see a Farsi medical loanword in the tenth-eleventh century KCT. Just to confirm, the term jagr? does not appear in the ninth century MS of the Su?rutasa?hit? (or in later versions of the text available to me). Nor do I find it in the etext versions of any classical ?yurvedic text. >>>> Best, >>>> Dominik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 13:40:36 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:40:36 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> Message-ID: sorry for the ambiguity - it is the KCT and not y/j that has connections further West etc. M Matthew T. Kapstein Professor emeritus Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris Associate The University of Chicago Divinity School Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. On Friday, August 8th, 2025 at 3:16 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: > Hi Madhav, > > David may correct me, but I don?t think y/j equivalence is current in the KCT and it is well known to have some connections with materials from further West, and to be responding to to some degree Islam. > > best > Matthew > > Sent from [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) for iOS > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 14:59, Madhav Deshpande <[mmdesh at umich.edu](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 14:59, Madhav Deshpande < wrote: > >> Here is a last ditch suggestion. Could the Sanskrit word yakr?t for liver have been turned into jagr? in the local vernacular and then used again in a Sanskrit text. The Hindi word for liver is jigar, yes. In any case, the phonetic connection between these two words seems inescapable to me. Best, >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 1:16?AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear David and all, >>> >>> I rather doubt that searching for a Persian medical text will be very useful. As Aleksandar and Agnes point out, the word was very widely borrowed, so it may not have come directly from a Persian source. An even in Persian, it seems to have been in use from at least Middle Persian on. The form you find in the KCT, jagrI, moreover, suggests that it was likely not a literary transliteration in this case. >>> >>> So the question to ask is why, of all the Persian words there are, was the word for liver, it seems, particularly widely diffused? I have no idea, but if you search "Iranian street food" you will find that liver dishes are quite prominent, so I suppose that culinary culture is as good a bet as any. >>> >>> happy hunting, >>> Matthew >>> >>> Matthew T. Kapstein >>> Professor emeritus >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris >>> >>> Associate >>> The University of Chicago Divinity School >>> >>> Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences >>> >>> https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein >>> >>> https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ >>> >>> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 >>> >>> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 >>> >>> https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 >>> >>> Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. >>> >>> On Friday, August 8th, 2025 at 5:49 AM, David and Nancy Reigle < dnreigle at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> A big thank you to all who have replied to my question, all helpful. Since Dominik has kindly verified that the term jagr ? does not occur in the etext versions of any classical ?yurvedic text, and that it does not occur in the ninth century MS of the Su?rutasa?hit?, we may accept Matthew's good suggestion that it comes from the Farsi word jigar. Now the question is: What Persian medical text would have been available in India in the 10th-11th century? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> David Reigle >>>> Colorado, U.S.A. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 9:58?AM Dominik Wujastyk < wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This strikes me as certainly the right answer, Matthew; thank you for finding it! It's really interesting to see a Farsi medical loanword in the tenth-eleventh century KCT. Just to confirm, the term jagr? does not appear in the ninth century MS of the Su?rutasa?hit? (or in later versions of the text available to me). Nor do I find it in the etext versions of any classical ?yurvedic text. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Dominik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de Fri Aug 8 13:45:42 2025 From: heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de (Heike Oberlin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:45:42 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?TWFsYXnEgeG4t2FtQFTDvGJpbmdlbjogTWFsYXlh?= =?utf-8?q?lam_Course_for_Beginners?= Message-ID: <4041B434-6CAC-43E5-B9F9-EBEBE5F1E173@uni-tuebingen.de> Malayalam: Course for Beginners Winter Term 2025/26 Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin & Vishnupriyaa P.S. (M.A.) Place: Hybrid: either in-class at T?bingen (students of T?bingen University) or online via Zoom (external guest students). Time: 20 October 2025 ? 5 February 2026 Mondays (10:15 ? 11:45 am CET) & Thursdays (10:15 ? 11:45 am CET) Fees: Free for students of T?bingen University (registration via ALMA). External guest students have to register centrally and pay a fee of 50?: https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/951. Contact & Application: indologie at uni-tuebingen.de The number of participants is limited. T?bingen students are given preferential admission. All other interested are requested to enclose a short letter of motivation (max. half page). Application deadline for external participants (indologie at uni-tuebingen.de): 15.9.2025. ? -------------------- Prof. Dr. Heike Oberlin (she/her) Head of the Dept. of Indology Deputy Spokesperson of the State Representation of Academic Staff at Universities in Baden-Wuerttemberg (LAM-BW) | Deputy University Equal Opportunities Officer & Equal Opportunities Officer of the Institute of Asian and Oriental Studies | Member of the Faculty Council of the Faculty of Humanities | Member of the Senate's Structural Commission | Member of the University Board (of Trustees) of the University of Tuebingen | DHV representative at the University of T?bingen Dept. of Indology ? University of Tuebingen Nauklerstr. 35 (room 3.07) ? 72074 Tuebingen ? Germany phone 07071 29-74005 ? mobile 0176 20030066 ? heike.oberlin at uni-tuebingen.de https://uni-tuebingen.de/en/9974 ** https://www.gundert-portal.de/ ** Joint project 2025-26 Merchant Ships and Forest Groves: Indigenous Knowledge Systems in Eco-Sensitive Zones of the Malabar Coast (Ophira Gamliel, Univ. of Glasgow) ** Heike Oberlin; David Shulman (ed.). 2019. Two Masterpieces of K??iy???am: Mantr??kam and A?gul?y??kam. New Delhi: Oxford University Press. OUP (6 video clips online: FDAT ) [Podcast by Raj Balkaran: Interview of David Shulman and Heike Oberlin, April 27, 2023] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Malayalam_Grund1_WS_2526.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1723606 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 13:58:22 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 13:58:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article search In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Several colleagues have now kindly replied to my article request. Many thanks! It is no longer necessary for others to respond. Matthew Sent from [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) for iOS On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 14:51, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 14:51, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < wrote: > Dear friends, > > I would be most grateful if someone can share with me soft copies of these articles : > > Sarma, S. R. 2012. ?Yantrar?ja for D?modara, The Earliest Extant Sanskrit Astrolabe', in J.-M. Delire (ed.) Astronomy and Mathematics in Ancient India - Astronomie et math?matiques de l'Inde ancienne Actes de la journ?e d'?tudes organis?e le 24 avril 2009 ? l'Universit? Libre de Bruxelles, Peeters. > > Sarma, S. R. 2012. ?The Gurumukhi Astrolabe of the Maharaja of Patiala' in Indian Journal of History of Science, vol. 47. no 1. 63-92. > > With thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Paris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 14:59:08 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 14:59:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude Message-ID: https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grimessm at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 15:10:25 2025 From: grimessm at gmail.com (Samuel Grimes) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 11:10:25 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP In-Reply-To: References: <82728AC4-230B-4103-AA27-5B0E622AC9C4@hcts.uni-heidelberg.de> <44965F1A-D8EC-4088-9458-4166B0ABCD68@wlu.edu> Message-ID: Following up, thank you so much to Tyler and Dominik for showing how to make the database navigable again. I was in a panic when the wiki began to 404. A question I have that I hope those who showed how to make the database available again is: is there a way to search for words that appear in the entry, but not the title? For example, if I want to see what colophons have the word "bhik?un?", on the original wiki I could search the word and all mss with the searched term in their catalog entry would populate in the search results. I cannot figure out if this is now possible. This ( https://catalogue.ngmcp.uni-hamburg.de/content/search/ngmcpdocument.xed) seems the most promising place to do so, but I have not had any luck in my attempts so far. Thank you again for making the database available! Sam On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 4:34?AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > confirmed! Thank you Tim! (glad there is a philologist here, and it's > obviously not me!) > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 10:31?AM Lubin, Tim wrote: > >> Jonathan, No institutional lapse this time ? just delete the spurious >> ?kindly? that was accidently added to the end of the URL! >> >> >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of >> INDOLOGY >> *Reply-To: *Jonathan Silk >> *Date: *Friday, July 18, 2025 at 5:25?PM >> *To: *"Michaels, Prof. Dr. Axel" >> *Cc: *INDOLOGY >> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP >> >> >> >> Dear Axel >> >> Perhaps there is a message here, echoing concerns expressed on this list >> in the last 24 hours: when I try the link you provide to the Academy, I get >> only >> Page not found >> >> The requested page could not be found. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 10:00?AM Michaels, Prof. Dr. Axel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Just to complement Dominik?s list: >> >> >> >> There is an almost comprehensive catalogue of c. 100.000 Nepalese >> documents photographed by the NGMPP and sustainably maintained by the >> Heidelberg Academy of sciences and Humanities: >> https://nepalica.hadw-bw.de/nepal/catitems/index/0?page=4. The project >> cataloguing these data will last until October 2028. It will then have >> covered all metadata. For more information including access to the scans, >> see >> https://www.hadw-bw.de/en/research/research-center/documents-history-religion-and-law-pre-modern-nepalkindly >> or contact nepal[at]hadw-bw.de . >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Axel / Michaels >> >> >> >> *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of " >> indology at list.indology.info" >> *Reply to: *Dominik Wujastyk >> *Date: *Friday, 18. July 2025 at 00:33 >> *To: *Tyler Neill >> *Cc: *"indology at list.indology.info" >> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP >> >> >> >> I would like to thank Tyler Neill and Claudius Teodorescu for discussions >> about how to save and make available the data of the NGMCP Wiki. My >> original panic about this has subsided now, since Hamburg yesterday put a >> simplified version of the data online again. >> >> >> >> Tyler has already explained matters clearly. In future you can consult >> this data at either of the following sites: >> >> - https://www-archiv.fdm.uni-hamburg.de/ngmcp/index.html >> - https://tylergneill.github.io/ngmcp-wiki-mirror >> >> This data provides descriptive information on nearly 16,000 manuscripts. >> >> >> >> A much simpler, searchable index of these *and many more *manuscripts is >> still available at Hamburg under the titles "Online Title List" and "Indic >> Manuscripts". I think there are 117,406 manuscripts in this index: >> >> - >> https://catalogue.ngmcp.uni-hamburg.de/content/search/ngmcpdocument.xed >> >> And the Nepalese National Archives themselves provide a searchable >> index. I don't know if it is based on the same data as the Hamburg "Online >> title list", but I think that is likely. The NAK index says it has data on >> 114,552 manuscripts: >> >> - http://narchives.gov.np/List.aspx >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Dominik >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History >> >> University of Alberta >> >> >> >> "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, >> >> the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge >> >> through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities >> and service." >> >> -- Collective Agreement >> >> 3.01 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Prof. dr. J.A. Silk >> >> Professor in the study of Buddhism >> >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> >> Herta Mohr building 2.142 >> >> Witte Singel 27A >> 2311 BG Leiden >> >> The Netherlands >> >> >> Guest Professor, PI of ERC-Project BEST >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen >> Department f?r Asienstudien, Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >> Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1 >> 80539 M?nchen >> Deutschland >> >> >> >> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu >> >> copies of my publications may be found at >> >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> > > > -- > Prof. dr. J.A. Silk > Professor in the study of Buddhism > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Herta Mohr building 2.142 > Witte Singel 27A > 2311 BG Leiden > The Netherlands > > Guest Professor, PI of ERC-Project BEST > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen > Department f?r Asienstudien, Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie > Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1 > 80539 M?nchen > Deutschland > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Fri Aug 8 15:13:41 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:13:41 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY wrote: ? https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gWjVVC3_$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 15:13:49 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 08:13:49 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I mean the Sanskrit word YkRt. The gmail automatically changed it to something strange. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 7:59?AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > > Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > taker for liver. > > Madhav Deshpande > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 15:15:14 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 08:15:14 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> References: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> Message-ID: It is indeed! On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:13?AM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? > > On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > ? > https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > > > Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > taker for liver. > > Madhav Deshpande > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gWjVVC3_$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 15:41:24 2025 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 17:41:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Message-ID: Dear all, Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here ; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. All my best, Antonia PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Fri Aug 8 15:43:23 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 15:43:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Overall, I think Madhav?s suggestion that jagri is a vernacularized form of yak.rt, (re)borrowed into Sanskrit, makes the best sense. Hindi-Urdu jigar, by contrast, is most likely one of the many Persian words that came into the language during the extended period of Persianate Muslim rule Best wishes Hans Henrich On Aug 8, 2025, at 10:15, Madhav Deshpande wrote: ? It is indeed! On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:13?AM Hock, Hans Henrich > wrote: Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > wrote: ? https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gWjVVC3_$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 16:19:49 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 16:19:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Overall, I am not sure. In an article that I will share with the list when it?s done, I think I demonstrate quite conclusively a west Semitic, probably Arabic, input in a 10th c Sanskrit text from Kashmir, with which there was some intertextuality with the KCT. But of course I do not ask that you accept my arguments until you have seen them. best, Matthew On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 17:44, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 17:44, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY < wrote: > Overall, I think Madhav?s suggestion that jagri is a vernacularized form of yak.rt, (re)borrowed into Sanskrit, makes the best sense. Hindi-Urdu jigar, by contrast, is most likely one of the many Persian words that came into the language during the extended period of Persianate Muslim rule > > Best wishes > > Hans Henrich > >> On Aug 8, 2025, at 10:15, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > >> ? >> It is indeed! >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:13?AM Hock, Hans Henrich < hhhock at illinois.edu> wrote: >> >>> Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? >>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> ? >>>> [https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gcXzDILU$) >>>> >>>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. >>>> >>>> Madhav Deshpande >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gWjVVC3_$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Fri Aug 8 16:50:59 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 16:50:59 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <23BBD708-3CB0-405D-98E1-B00306DF1CFF@illinois.edu> OK, but jagri cannot be from Arabic, which has kbd On Aug 8, 2025, at 11:19, Matthew Kapstein wrote: ? Overall, I am not sure. In an article that I will share with the list when it?s done, I think I demonstrate quite conclusively a west Semitic, probably Arabic, input in a 10th c Sanskrit text from Kashmir, with which there was some intertextuality with the KCT. But of course I do not ask that you accept my arguments until you have seen them. best, Matthew On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 17:44, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY > wrote: Overall, I think Madhav?s suggestion that jagri is a vernacularized form of yak.rt, (re)borrowed into Sanskrit, makes the best sense. Hindi-Urdu jigar, by contrast, is most likely one of the many Persian words that came into the language during the extended period of Persianate Muslim rule Best wishes Hans Henrich On Aug 8, 2025, at 10:15, Madhav Deshpande wrote: ? It is indeed! On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:13?AM Hock, Hans Henrich < hhhock at illinois.edu> wrote: Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: ? https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gWjVVC3_$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 16:56:17 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 16:56:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <23BBD708-3CB0-405D-98E1-B00306DF1CFF@illinois.edu> References: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> <23BBD708-3CB0-405D-98E1-B00306DF1CFF@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <9bij5QlGMV36Kh4iQEBh0RRX7azQ1WWmPycYWEyUscTSf9tjaRZGJbzyoPJFoq_KWfROOiLTzVzgy8qFDYE-31tv4H84ooqnKWgQc5kDb3g=@proton.me> No one said it is from Arabic. It could be from any of a number of languages. The point is that the west to east movement is plausible long before the Delhi Sultanate- something that is confirmed by numerous examples without awaiting my minor contribution. Matthew On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 18:51, Hock, Hans Henrich <[hhhock at illinois.edu](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 18:51, Hock, Hans Henrich < wrote: > OK, but jagri cannot be from Arabic, which has kbd > >> On Aug 8, 2025, at 11:19, Matthew Kapstein wrote: > >> ? >> Overall, I am not sure. In an article that I will share with the list when it?s done, I think I demonstrate quite conclusively a west Semitic, probably Arabic, input in a 10th c Sanskrit text from Kashmir, with which there was some intertextuality with the KCT. But of course I do not ask that you accept my arguments until you have seen them. >> >> best, >> Matthew >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 17:44, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY < [indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 17:44, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY < wrote: >> >>> Overall, I think Madhav?s suggestion that jagri is a vernacularized form of yak.rt, (re)borrowed into Sanskrit, makes the best sense. Hindi-Urdu jigar, by contrast, is most likely one of the many Persian words that came into the language during the extended period of Persianate Muslim rule >>> >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Hans Henrich >>> >>>> On Aug 8, 2025, at 10:15, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>> >>>> ? >>>> It is indeed! >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:13?AM Hock, Hans Henrich < hhhock at illinois.edu> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> ? >>>>>> [https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c](https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gcXzDILU$) >>>>>> >>>>>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. >>>>>> >>>>>> Madhav Deshpande >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_WKarraAktCE2BosanC9Ju9VfbwFiIzLmd1OK4_ZcSR4merfVrsNbd2ofD1GOkmBQaMN1ZxVE5C40zKvmwL_gWjVVC3_$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it Fri Aug 8 17:04:01 2025 From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:04:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> Dear Colleagues, I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). Warmest wishes, Raffaele > Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY ha scritto: > > Dear all, > > Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > > I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here ; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > > Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 . > > If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > > All my best, > Antonia > > PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI Prof. Raffaele Torella Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit Sapienza University of Rome wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella -- *Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori*** *con il? 5?per?mille?alla Sapienza* Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit?? *80209930587 **Cinque?per?mille * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it Fri Aug 8 17:04:47 2025 From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:04:47 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A5317CB-4532-4333-A316-BF782467CBA4@uniroma1.it> Dear Colleagues, I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). Warmest wishes, Raffaele > Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY ha scritto: > > Dear all, > > Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > > I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here ; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > > Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 . > > If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > > All my best, > Antonia > > PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI Prof. Raffaele Torella Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit Sapienza University of Rome wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella -- *Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori*** *con il? 5?per?mille?alla Sapienza* Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit?? *80209930587 **Cinque?per?mille * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 18:08:58 2025 From: piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com (Piotr Balcerowicz) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 20:08:58 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?25_books_banned_=28=E2=80=98forfeited?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZKSwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIG1pbmU=?= Message-ID: Dear List Members, I would like to draw the attention of those of you who also follow current developments in India to the latest official ban on 25 books, which was signed on 5th August, and announced on 6th August: https://indianexpress.com/article/india/arundhati-roy-noorani-jk-bans-publication-25-books-kashmir-propagating-secessionism-10174625/ And this was my first reaction to the ban, which includes two of my monographs: https://thewire.in/government/burning-knowledge-my-book-is-among-those-banned-by-the-jammu-kashmir-administration This has already resulted in the actual seizure (euphemism for ?state stealing?) of the titles in a number of book stores in Jammu and Kashmir. Best regards, Piotr Balcerowicz ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://balcerowicz.eu/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 18:37:28 2025 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 20:37:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> Message-ID: Dear Raffaele, It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? All my best, Antonia On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum > Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en), which is probably known to > some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in > October 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s). In > October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian > Association for Sanskrit Studies. > > Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian > Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including > Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as > spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in > close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order > to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be > extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). > > Warmest wishes, > Raffaele > > Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > > Dear all, > > Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the > autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may > be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient > Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > > I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here > ; but > in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis > for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of > overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the > two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is > exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > > Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of > custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 > either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am > making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of > courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 > > . > > If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > > All my best, > Antonia > > PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the > third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting > Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we > find in ancient India. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI > > > Prof. Raffaele Torella > Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit > Sapienza University of Rome > wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella > > > *Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori* > > *con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza* > > Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? > *80209930587**Cinque per mille * > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 18:46:24 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 11:46:24 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Rolf, I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow the *i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you > did with Claude.ai. > > This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): > > The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a well-established > history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language > family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: > ------------------------------ > ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* > > - > > In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: > - > > The *anatomical liver*, and > - > > *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, *passion*, and *deep > emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. > > ------------------------------ > ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* > > - > > *Middle Persian*: > - > > The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or *jekar*. > - > > *Old Persian*: > - > > The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on > related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. > > ------------------------------ > ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* > > - > > *Avestan* (East Iranian): > - > > *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. > - > > *Proto-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier > Indo-Iranian form. > - > > *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) > - > > *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: > - > > **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise > to many cognates across Indo-European languages. > > ------------------------------ > ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* > Language Word for "liver" Notes > *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match > *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate > *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) > *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE > origin) > *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by > metaphorical use ("life-organ") > ------------------------------ > ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* > > - > > In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became *highly > metaphorical*: > - > > *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave > - > > *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person > - > > *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief > > This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in > European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the > seat of *strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. > ------------------------------ > ? Summary: > > - > > *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European > *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. > - > > It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan > *yakar?*. > - > > The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures > (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not > etymological. > > Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European > languages? > > > > Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: > > https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > > Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > taker for liver. > > Madhav Deshpande > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonia.ruppel at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 18:53:55 2025 From: antonia.ruppel at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 20:53:55 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, I think the general caveat for use of AI holds here, too: never ask an AI about something where you don't know what you want the answer to be, because if you do, you will have no way of knowing whether the answer is correct or just convincing. In this case I'd assume that the esteemed colleagues involved in this conversation are fully able to check whether the claims made by Claude et al. are correct or not; but here, too, one ought not to assume that something is actually the case just because an AI has claimed it to be so. All my best, Antonia On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 20:47, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Rolf, > > I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information > provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar > *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? > *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain > the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow > the *i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad > hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of > Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? > *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common > feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of > a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, > than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > > Madhav > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Madhav, >> >> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you >> did with Claude.ai. >> >> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): >> >> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a >> well-established history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European >> language family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: >> ------------------------------ >> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* >> >> - >> >> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: >> - >> >> The *anatomical liver*, and >> - >> >> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, *passion*, and *deep >> emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* >> >> - >> >> *Middle Persian*: >> - >> >> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or *jekar*. >> - >> >> *Old Persian*: >> - >> >> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on >> related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* >> >> - >> >> *Avestan* (East Iranian): >> - >> >> *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. >> - >> >> *Proto-Iranian*: >> - >> >> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier >> Indo-Iranian form. >> - >> >> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: >> - >> >> Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) >> - >> >> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: >> - >> >> **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise >> to many cognates across Indo-European languages. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* >> Language Word for "liver" Notes >> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match >> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate >> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) >> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely >> non-IE origin) >> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by >> metaphorical use ("life-organ") >> ------------------------------ >> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* >> >> - >> >> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became *highly >> metaphorical*: >> - >> >> *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave >> - >> >> *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person >> - >> >> *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief >> >> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in >> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the >> seat of *strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. >> ------------------------------ >> ? Summary: >> >> - >> >> *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European >> *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. >> - >> >> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan >> *yakar?*. >> - >> >> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures >> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not >> etymological. >> >> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European >> languages? >> >> >> >> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: >> >> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >> >> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word >> taker for liver. >> >> Madhav Deshpande >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com >> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 18:58:50 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 11:58:50 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual references: 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the *"Raktavaha Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). Key References: - Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) - *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders (*yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). - *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. - Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) - *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. - *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). - Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) - *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. Example Verse (Charaka): *"????????????????? ??????..."* *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* ------------------------------ 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. Key References: - Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) - Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict dietary rules). - Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) - Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical discussions. - Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) - Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily suffering. Example Passage: *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* ------------------------------ 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). Key References: - Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) - Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. - S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) - Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-a??hi*). - Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) - Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): *"????-?????-???????..."* *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* ------------------------------ 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. Key References: - Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) - A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease). - Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) - Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. Example Line: *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* ------------------------------ Evolution Summary: 1. Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* 2. Pali: *Yakana (???)* 3. Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* 4. Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* 5. Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* 6. Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru *goes back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it a borrowing from Persian. Madhav M. Deshpandee Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Rolf, > > I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information > provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar > *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? > *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain > the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow > the *i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad > hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of > Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? > *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common > feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of > a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, > than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > > Madhav > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear Madhav, >> >> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you >> did with Claude.ai. >> >> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): >> >> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a >> well-established history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European >> language family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: >> ------------------------------ >> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* >> >> - >> >> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: >> - >> >> The *anatomical liver*, and >> - >> >> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, *passion*, and *deep >> emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* >> >> - >> >> *Middle Persian*: >> - >> >> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or *jekar*. >> - >> >> *Old Persian*: >> - >> >> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on >> related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* >> >> - >> >> *Avestan* (East Iranian): >> - >> >> *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. >> - >> >> *Proto-Iranian*: >> - >> >> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier >> Indo-Iranian form. >> - >> >> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: >> - >> >> Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) >> - >> >> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: >> - >> >> **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise >> to many cognates across Indo-European languages. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* >> Language Word for "liver" Notes >> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match >> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate >> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) >> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely >> non-IE origin) >> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by >> metaphorical use ("life-organ") >> ------------------------------ >> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* >> >> - >> >> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became *highly >> metaphorical*: >> - >> >> *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave >> - >> >> *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person >> - >> >> *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief >> >> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in >> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the >> seat of *strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. >> ------------------------------ >> ? Summary: >> >> - >> >> *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European >> *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. >> - >> >> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan >> *yakar?*. >> - >> >> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures >> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not >> etymological. >> >> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European >> languages? >> >> >> >> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: >> >> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >> >> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word >> taker for liver. >> >> Madhav Deshpande >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 18:59:29 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 11:59:29 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with you. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:54?AM Antonia Ruppel wrote: > Dear all, > > I think the general caveat for use of AI holds here, too: never ask an AI > about something where you don't know what you want the answer to be, > because if you do, you will have no way of knowing whether the answer is > correct or just convincing. > > In this case I'd assume that the esteemed colleagues involved in this > conversation are fully able to check whether the claims made by Claude et > al. are correct or not; but here, too, one ought not to assume that > something is actually the case just because an AI has claimed it to be so. > > All my best, > Antonia > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 20:47, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Rolf, >> >> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information >> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar >> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? >> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain >> the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow >> the *i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad >> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of >> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? >> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common >> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of >> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, >> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. >> >> Madhav >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, >> India >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < >> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Madhav, >>> >>> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as >>> you did with Claude.ai. >>> >>> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): >>> >>> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a >>> well-established history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European >>> language family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: >>> ------------------------------ >>> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* >>> >>> - >>> >>> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: >>> - >>> >>> The *anatomical liver*, and >>> - >>> >>> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, *passion*, and *deep >>> emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* >>> >>> - >>> >>> *Middle Persian*: >>> - >>> >>> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or *jekar*. >>> - >>> >>> *Old Persian*: >>> - >>> >>> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based >>> on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* >>> >>> - >>> >>> *Avestan* (East Iranian): >>> - >>> >>> *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. >>> - >>> >>> *Proto-Iranian*: >>> - >>> >>> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier >>> Indo-Iranian form. >>> - >>> >>> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: >>> - >>> >>> Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) >>> - >>> >>> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: >>> - >>> >>> **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives >>> rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* >>> Language Word for "liver" Notes >>> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match >>> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate >>> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) >>> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely >>> non-IE origin) >>> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by >>> metaphorical use ("life-organ") >>> ------------------------------ >>> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* >>> >>> - >>> >>> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became *highly >>> metaphorical*: >>> - >>> >>> *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave >>> - >>> >>> *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person >>> - >>> >>> *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief >>> >>> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in >>> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the >>> seat of *strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. >>> ------------------------------ >>> ? Summary: >>> >>> - >>> >>> *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European >>> *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. >>> - >>> >>> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan >>> *yakar?*. >>> - >>> >>> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures >>> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not >>> etymological. >>> >>> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across >>> Indo-European languages? >>> >>> >>> >>> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: >>> >>> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >>> >>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word >>> taker for liver. >>> >>> Madhav Deshpande >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> -- >>> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri Aug 8 19:06:20 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:06:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the very opening of the B?had-?ra?yaka, which raises the question of what is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM To: Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual references: 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the "Raktavaha Srotas" (blood-carrying channels). Key References: * Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) * *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders (yak?d-dalyudara, enlarged liver). * S?trasth?na 28 ? Lists yak?t among major organs. * Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) * Shar?rasth?na 4 ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. * Nid?nasth?na 7 ? Diagnoses liver diseases (yak?t-pl?hodara). * Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) * S?trasth?na 12 ? Mentions yak?t in the context of digestion. Example Verse (Charaka): "????????????????? ??????..." ("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...") ? Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15 ________________________________ 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. Key References: * Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) * Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict dietary rules). * Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) * Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical discussions. * Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) * Metaphorically uses "yakana" in descriptions of bodily suffering. Example Passage: "Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..." ("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...") ? Vinaya Pi?aka commentary ________________________________ 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? Jain texts in Prakrit use "jigara" (from Sanskrit yak?t). Key References: * Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) * Verse 36.75: Lists jigara among organs affected by karma. * S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) * Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (jigara-a??hi). * Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) * Defines: "Jigara = Yak?t" (?????). Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): "????-?????-???????..." ("From liver to bones and marrow...") ? S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27 ________________________________ 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts The transitional form "jigaru" appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. Key References: * Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) * A Jain story describing a king?s "jigaru-roga" (liver disease). * Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) * Uses jigaru in prescriptions for liver ailments. Example Line: "????? ??????" ("Liver pain") ? Bhavisayatta Kaha ________________________________ Evolution Summary: 1. Vedic Sanskrit: Yak?t (?????) 2. Pali: Yakana (???) 3. Early Prakrit: Yakai (???) 4. Later Prakrit (Jain): Jigara (????) 5. Apabhra??a: Jigaru (?????) 6. Modern Hindi/Urdu: Jigar (????) These references contain the use of jigara or jigaru from ancient Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word jigar/jigaru goes back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it a borrowing from Persian. Madhav M. Deshpandee Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Dear Rolf, I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian jigar is cognate with Sanskrit yakr?t. The reason I am reluctant to think jagr? coming from Persian jigar, is that such a borrowing does not explain the ? at the end of jagr?, and then we have to assume that somehow the i of jigar changed to a of jagr?. That requires too many ad hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the y of Sanskrit is replaced with j, and the r? is routinely pronounced as r? in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of a clear line of connection between Sanskrit yakr?t and your jagr?, than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch > wrote: Dear Madhav, just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you did with Claude.ai. This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): The Persian word jigar (???), meaning ?liver?, has a well-established history within the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: ________________________________ ? 1. Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver * In Classical Persian, jigar refers both to: * The anatomical liver, and * Metaphorical qualities like courage, passion, and deep emotion ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. ________________________________ ? 2. Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian * Middle Persian: * The word appears as jigar (same as modern) or jekar. * Old Persian: * The word is not directly attested, but is reconstructed based on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. ________________________________ ? 3. Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots * Avestan (East Iranian): * yakar? (liver) ? a clear cognate. * Proto-Iranian: * Reconstructed as jigar or jakar, derived from an earlier Indo-Iranian form. * Proto-Indo-Iranian: * Reconstructed as y?k?t (same as Sanskrit yak?t = liver) * Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root: * *i?k?w?? ? This is the PIE word for ?liver?, and it gives rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages. ________________________________ ? 4. Cognates in other Indo-European languages Language Word for "liver" Notes Sanskrit yak?t (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match Avestan yakar? East Iranian cognate Latin iecur PIE root preserved (with changes) Ancient Greek h?par (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE origin) Old English lifere ? liver Possibly unrelated, or influenced by metaphorical use ("life-organ") ________________________________ ? 5. Semantic development in Persian * In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, jigar became highly metaphorical: * jigar-dil = ?liver-hearted? ? brave * jigar-p?ra (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person * jigar khun hona (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief This is cultural ? just as the heart became the seat of emotion in European traditions, the liver was seen in Persianate culture as the seat of strong emotions, especially courage and deep love. ________________________________ ? Summary: * Jigar (???) is an authentic Iranian word, descending from Proto-Indo-European *i?k?w?? via Indo-Iranian *yak?t. * It is cognate with Sanskrit yak?t, Latin iecur, and Avestan yakar?. * The metaphorical richness of the word in Persianate cultures (courage, love, pain) is a later cultural development, not etymological. Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European languages? Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 8 19:15:28 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 12:15:28 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, Alexander. There is not much of an issue with how old the word yak.rt is. The discussion is more about the likely sources of jagri. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:06?PM Uskokov, Aleksandar < aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote: > Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the > very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the question of what > is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" > > https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ > > > *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM > *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude > > For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual > references: > > 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts > > The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the *"Raktavaha > Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). > Key References: > > - > > Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) > - > > *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( > *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). > - > > *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. > - > > Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) > - > > *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. > - > > *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). > - > > Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) > - > > *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. > > Example Verse (Charaka): > > *"????????????????? ??????..."* > *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* > ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* > > ------------------------------ > 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts > > The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. > Key References: > > - > > Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) > - > > Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict > dietary rules). > - > > Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) > - > > Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical > discussions. > - > > Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) > - > > Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily suffering. > > Example Passage: > > *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* > *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* > ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* > > ------------------------------ > 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? > > Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). > Key References: > > - > > Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) > - > > Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. > - > > S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) > - > > Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-a??hi*). > - > > Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) > - > > Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). > > Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): > > *"????-?????-???????..."* > *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* > ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* > > ------------------------------ > 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts > > The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. > Key References: > > - > > Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) > - > > A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease). > - > > Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) > - > > Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. > > Example Line: > > *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") > ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* > > ------------------------------ > Evolution Summary: > > 1. > > Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* > 2. > > Pali: *Yakana (???)* > 3. > > Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* > 4. > > Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* > 5. > > Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* > 6. > > Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* > > These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient > Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. > Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru *goes > back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it > a borrowing from Persian. > > Madhav M. Deshpandee > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Dear Rolf, > > I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information > provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar > *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? > *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain > the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow > the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad > hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of > Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? > *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common > feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of > a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, > than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > > Madhav > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Madhav, > > just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you > did with Claude.ai. > > This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): > > The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a well-established > history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language > family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: > ------------------------------ > ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* > > - > > In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: > - > > The *anatomical liver*, and > - > > *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep > emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. > > ------------------------------ > ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* > > - > > *Middle Persian*: > - > > The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*. > - > > *Old Persian*: > - > > The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on > related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. > > ------------------------------ > ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* > > - > > *Avestan* (East Iranian): > - > > *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. > - > > *Proto-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier > Indo-Iranian form. > - > > *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) > - > > *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: > - > > **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise > to many cognates across Indo-European languages. > > ------------------------------ > ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* > Language Word for "liver" Notes > *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match > *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate > *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) > *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE > origin) > *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by > metaphorical use ("life-organ") > ------------------------------ > ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* > > - > > In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly > metaphorical*: > - > > *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave > - > > *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person > - > > *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief > > This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in > European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the > seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. > ------------------------------ > ? Summary: > > - > > *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European > *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. > - > > It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan > *yakar?*. > - > > The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures > (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not > etymological. > > Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European > languages? > > > > Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: > > https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > > Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > taker for liver. > > Madhav Deshpande > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 8 19:24:03 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2025 19:24:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jagr? in context, may I say, I e. Kashmir or thereabouts in about 10th c. On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 21:16, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 21:16, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < wrote: > Yes, Alexander. There is not much of an issue with how old the word yak.rt is. The discussion is more about the likely sources of jagri. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:06?PM Uskokov, Aleksandar < aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote: > >> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the very opening of the B?had-?ra?yaka, which raises the question of what is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. >> >> Best wishes, >> Aleksandar >> >> Aleksandar Uskokov >> >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >> >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University >> >> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu >> >> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" >> >> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ >> >> Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY >> Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM >> To: Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude >> >> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual references: >> >> 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts >> >> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the "Raktavaha Srotas" (blood-carrying channels). >> >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) >> >> - >> >> *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders (yak?d-dalyudara, enlarged liver). >> >> - >> >> S?trasth?na 28 ? Lists yak?t among major organs. >> >> - >> >> Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) >> >> - >> >> Shar?rasth?na 4 ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. >> >> - >> >> Nid?nasth?na 7 ? Diagnoses liver diseases (yak?t-pl?hodara). >> >> - >> >> Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) >> >> - >> >> S?trasth?na 12 ? Mentions yak?t in the context of digestion. >> >> Example Verse (Charaka): >> >>> "????????????????? ??????..." >>> ("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...") >>> ? Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15 >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts >> >> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. >> >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) >> >> - >> >> Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict dietary rules). >> >> - >> >> Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) >> >> - >> >> Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical discussions. >> >> - >> >> Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) >> >> - >> >> Metaphorically uses "yakana" in descriptions of bodily suffering. >> >> Example Passage: >> >>> "Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..." >>> ("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...") >>> ? Vinaya Pi?aka commentary >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? >> >> Jain texts in Prakrit use "jigara" (from Sanskrit yak?t). >> >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) >> >> - >> >> Verse 36.75: Lists jigara among organs affected by karma. >> >> - >> >> S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) >> >> - >> >> Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (jigara-a??hi). >> >> - >> >> Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) >> >> - >> >> Defines: "Jigara = Yak?t" (?????). >> >> Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): >> >>> "????-?????-???????..." >>> ("From liver to bones and marrow...") >>> ? S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27 >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts >> >> The transitional form "jigaru" appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. >> >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) >> >> - >> >> A Jain story describing a king?s "jigaru-roga" (liver disease). >> >> - >> >> Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) >> >> - >> >> Uses jigaru in prescriptions for liver ailments. >> >> Example Line: >> >>> "????? ??????" ("Liver pain") >>> ? Bhavisayatta Kaha >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Evolution Summary: >> >> - >> >> Vedic Sanskrit: Yak?t (?????) >> >> - >> >> Pali: Yakana (???) >> >> - >> >> Early Prakrit: Yakai (???) >> >> - >> >> Later Prakrit (Jain): Jigara (????) >> >> - >> >> Apabhra??a: Jigaru (?????) >> >> - >> >> Modern Hindi/Urdu: Jigar (????) >> >> These references contain the use of jigara or jigaru from ancient Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word jigar/jigaru goes back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it a borrowing from Persian. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpandee >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande < mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote: >> >>> Dear Rolf, >>> >>> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian jigar is cognate with Sanskrit yakr?t. The reason I am reluctant to think jagr? coming from Persian jigar, is that such a borrowing does not explain the ? at the end of jagr?, and then we have to assume that somehow the i of jigar changed to a of jagr?. That requires too many ad hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the y of Sanskrit is replaced with j, and the r? is routinely pronounced as r? in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of a clear line of connection between Sanskrit yakr?t and your jagr?, than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. >>> >>> Madhav >>> Madhav M. Deshpande >>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India >>> >>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Madhav, >>>> >>>> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you did with Claude.ai. >>>> >>>> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): >>>> >>>> The Persian word jigar (???), meaning ?liver?, has a well-established history within the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ? 1. Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> In Classical Persian, jigar refers both to: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> The anatomical liver, and >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Metaphorical qualities like courage, passion, and deep emotion ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ? 2. Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Middle Persian: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> The word appears as jigar (same as modern) or jekar. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Old Persian: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> The word is not directly attested, but is reconstructed based on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ? 3. Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Avestan (East Iranian): >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> yakar? (liver) ? a clear cognate. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Proto-Iranian: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Reconstructed as jigar or jakar, derived from an earlier Indo-Iranian form. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Proto-Indo-Iranian: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Reconstructed as y?k?t (same as Sanskrit yak?t = liver) >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> *i?k?w?? ? This is the PIE word for ?liver?, and it gives rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages. >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ? 4. Cognates in other Indo-European languages >>>> >>>> Language Word for "liver" Notes >>>> Sanskrit yak?t (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match >>>> Avestan yakar? East Iranian cognate >>>> Latin iecur PIE root preserved (with changes) >>>> Ancient Greek h?par (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE origin) >>>> Old English lifere ? liver Possibly unrelated, or influenced by metaphorical use ("life-organ") >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ? 5. Semantic development in Persian >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, jigar became highly metaphorical: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> jigar-dil = ?liver-hearted? ? brave >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> jigar-p?ra (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> jigar khun hona (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief >>>> >>>> This is cultural ? just as the heart became the seat of emotion in European traditions, the liver was seen in Persianate culture as the seat of strong emotions, especially courage and deep love. >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> ? Summary: >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> Jigar (???) is an authentic Iranian word, descending from Proto-Indo-European *i?k?w?? via Indo-Iranian *yak?t. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> It is cognate with Sanskrit yak?t, Latin iecur, and Avestan yakar?. >>>> >>>> - >>>> >>>> The metaphorical richness of the word in Persianate cultures (courage, love, pain) is a later cultural development, not etymological. >>>> >>>> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European languages? >>>> >>>> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: >>>> >>>>> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >>>>> >>>>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. >>>>> >>>>> Madhav Deshpande >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka >>>> [www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com](http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri Aug 8 19:29:52 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:29:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you. Yes, I appreciate that the query is not about the first occurrence of the word. But in terms of cultural significance, it would be hard to beat the Brhadaranyaka. How does an AI engine choose which references to offer and why do they seem so random, is what I find myself wondering whenever I use one. And what happens when the readers are no longer trained philologists? Best wishes Aleksandar Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: Madhav Deshpande Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 3:15:28 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar Cc: Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude Yes, Alexander. There is not much of an issue with how old the word yak.rt is. The discussion is more about the likely sources of jagri. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:06?PM Uskokov, Aleksandar > wrote: Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the very opening of the B?had-?ra?yaka, which raises the question of what is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM To: Rolf Heinrich Koch >; Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual references: 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the "Raktavaha Srotas" (blood-carrying channels). Key References: * Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) * *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders (yak?d-dalyudara, enlarged liver). * S?trasth?na 28 ? Lists yak?t among major organs. * Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) * Shar?rasth?na 4 ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. * Nid?nasth?na 7 ? Diagnoses liver diseases (yak?t-pl?hodara). * Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) * S?trasth?na 12 ? Mentions yak?t in the context of digestion. Example Verse (Charaka): "????????????????? ??????..." ("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...") ? Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15 ________________________________ 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. Key References: * Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) * Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict dietary rules). * Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) * Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical discussions. * Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) * Metaphorically uses "yakana" in descriptions of bodily suffering. Example Passage: "Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..." ("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...") ? Vinaya Pi?aka commentary ________________________________ 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? Jain texts in Prakrit use "jigara" (from Sanskrit yak?t). Key References: * Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) * Verse 36.75: Lists jigara among organs affected by karma. * S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) * Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (jigara-a??hi). * Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) * Defines: "Jigara = Yak?t" (?????). Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): "????-?????-???????..." ("From liver to bones and marrow...") ? S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27 ________________________________ 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts The transitional form "jigaru" appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. Key References: * Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) * A Jain story describing a king?s "jigaru-roga" (liver disease). * Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) * Uses jigaru in prescriptions for liver ailments. Example Line: "????? ??????" ("Liver pain") ? Bhavisayatta Kaha ________________________________ Evolution Summary: 1. Vedic Sanskrit: Yak?t (?????) 2. Pali: Yakana (???) 3. Early Prakrit: Yakai (???) 4. Later Prakrit (Jain): Jigara (????) 5. Apabhra??a: Jigaru (?????) 6. Modern Hindi/Urdu: Jigar (????) These references contain the use of jigara or jigaru from ancient Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word jigar/jigaru goes back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it a borrowing from Persian. Madhav M. Deshpandee Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Dear Rolf, I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian jigar is cognate with Sanskrit yakr?t. The reason I am reluctant to think jagr? coming from Persian jigar, is that such a borrowing does not explain the ? at the end of jagr?, and then we have to assume that somehow the i of jigar changed to a of jagr?. That requires too many ad hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the y of Sanskrit is replaced with j, and the r? is routinely pronounced as r? in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of a clear line of connection between Sanskrit yakr?t and your jagr?, than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch > wrote: Dear Madhav, just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you did with Claude.ai. This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): The Persian word jigar (???), meaning ?liver?, has a well-established history within the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: ________________________________ ? 1. Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver * In Classical Persian, jigar refers both to: * The anatomical liver, and * Metaphorical qualities like courage, passion, and deep emotion ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. ________________________________ ? 2. Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian * Middle Persian: * The word appears as jigar (same as modern) or jekar. * Old Persian: * The word is not directly attested, but is reconstructed based on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. ________________________________ ? 3. Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots * Avestan (East Iranian): * yakar? (liver) ? a clear cognate. * Proto-Iranian: * Reconstructed as jigar or jakar, derived from an earlier Indo-Iranian form. * Proto-Indo-Iranian: * Reconstructed as y?k?t (same as Sanskrit yak?t = liver) * Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root: * *i?k?w?? ? This is the PIE word for ?liver?, and it gives rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages. ________________________________ ? 4. Cognates in other Indo-European languages Language Word for "liver" Notes Sanskrit yak?t (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match Avestan yakar? East Iranian cognate Latin iecur PIE root preserved (with changes) Ancient Greek h?par (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE origin) Old English lifere ? liver Possibly unrelated, or influenced by metaphorical use ("life-organ") ________________________________ ? 5. Semantic development in Persian * In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, jigar became highly metaphorical: * jigar-dil = ?liver-hearted? ? brave * jigar-p?ra (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person * jigar khun hona (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief This is cultural ? just as the heart became the seat of emotion in European traditions, the liver was seen in Persianate culture as the seat of strong emotions, especially courage and deep love. ________________________________ ? Summary: * Jigar (???) is an authentic Iranian word, descending from Proto-Indo-European *i?k?w?? via Indo-Iranian *yak?t. * It is cognate with Sanskrit yak?t, Latin iecur, and Avestan yakar?. * The metaphorical richness of the word in Persianate cultures (courage, love, pain) is a later cultural development, not etymological. Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European languages? Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Fri Aug 8 19:30:35 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 19:30:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> Interesting evidence, esp. the Jaina Prakrit one. Could jagri and jigar(u) be variant vernacularizations of Skt. yak.rt, plus additional Prakritic changes (e.g. a > i after palatal, comparable to madhyama > majjihima? Hans Henrich On Aug 8, 2025, at 14:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY wrote: ? Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the very opening of the B?had-?ra?yaka, which raises the question of what is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM To: Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual references: 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the "Raktavaha Srotas" (blood-carrying channels). Key References: * Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) * *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders (yak?d-dalyudara, enlarged liver). * S?trasth?na 28 ? Lists yak?t among major organs. * Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) * Shar?rasth?na 4 ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. * Nid?nasth?na 7 ? Diagnoses liver diseases (yak?t-pl?hodara). * Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) * S?trasth?na 12 ? Mentions yak?t in the context of digestion. Example Verse (Charaka): "????????????????? ??????..." ("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...") ? Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15 ________________________________ 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. Key References: * Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) * Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict dietary rules). * Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) * Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical discussions. * Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) * Metaphorically uses "yakana" in descriptions of bodily suffering. Example Passage: "Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..." ("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...") ? Vinaya Pi?aka commentary ________________________________ 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? Jain texts in Prakrit use "jigara" (from Sanskrit yak?t). Key References: * Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) * Verse 36.75: Lists jigara among organs affected by karma. * S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) * Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (jigara-a??hi). * Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) * Defines: "Jigara = Yak?t" (?????). Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): "????-?????-???????..." ("From liver to bones and marrow...") ? S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27 ________________________________ 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts The transitional form "jigaru" appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. Key References: * Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) * A Jain story describing a king?s "jigaru-roga" (liver disease). * Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) * Uses jigaru in prescriptions for liver ailments. Example Line: "????? ??????" ("Liver pain") ? Bhavisayatta Kaha ________________________________ Evolution Summary: 1. Vedic Sanskrit: Yak?t (?????) 2. Pali: Yakana (???) 3. Early Prakrit: Yakai (???) 4. Later Prakrit (Jain): Jigara (????) 5. Apabhra??a: Jigaru (?????) 6. Modern Hindi/Urdu: Jigar (????) These references contain the use of jigara or jigaru from ancient Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word jigar/jigaru goes back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it a borrowing from Persian. Madhav M. Deshpandee Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande > wrote: Dear Rolf, I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian jigar is cognate with Sanskrit yakr?t. The reason I am reluctant to think jagr? coming from Persian jigar, is that such a borrowing does not explain the ? at the end of jagr?, and then we have to assume that somehow the i of jigar changed to a of jagr?. That requires too many ad hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the y of Sanskrit is replaced with j, and the r? is routinely pronounced as r? in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of a clear line of connection between Sanskrit yakr?t and your jagr?, than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch > wrote: Dear Madhav, just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you did with Claude.ai. This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): The Persian word jigar (???), meaning ?liver?, has a well-established history within the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: ________________________________ ? 1. Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver * In Classical Persian, jigar refers both to: * The anatomical liver, and * Metaphorical qualities like courage, passion, and deep emotion ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. ________________________________ ? 2. Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian * Middle Persian: * The word appears as jigar (same as modern) or jekar. * Old Persian: * The word is not directly attested, but is reconstructed based on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. ________________________________ ? 3. Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots * Avestan (East Iranian): * yakar? (liver) ? a clear cognate. * Proto-Iranian: * Reconstructed as jigar or jakar, derived from an earlier Indo-Iranian form. * Proto-Indo-Iranian: * Reconstructed as y?k?t (same as Sanskrit yak?t = liver) * Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root: * *i?k?w?? ? This is the PIE word for ?liver?, and it gives rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages. ________________________________ ? 4. Cognates in other Indo-European languages Language Word for "liver" Notes Sanskrit yak?t (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match Avestan yakar? East Iranian cognate Latin iecur PIE root preserved (with changes) Ancient Greek h?par (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE origin) Old English lifere ? liver Possibly unrelated, or influenced by metaphorical use ("life-organ") ________________________________ ? 5. Semantic development in Persian * In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, jigar became highly metaphorical: * jigar-dil = ?liver-hearted? ? brave * jigar-p?ra (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person * jigar khun hona (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief This is cultural ? just as the heart became the seat of emotion in European traditions, the liver was seen in Persianate culture as the seat of strong emotions, especially courage and deep love. ________________________________ ? Summary: * Jigar (???) is an authentic Iranian word, descending from Proto-Indo-European *i?k?w?? via Indo-Iranian *yak?t. * It is cognate with Sanskrit yak?t, Latin iecur, and Avestan yakar?. * The metaphorical richness of the word in Persianate cultures (courage, love, pain) is a later cultural development, not etymological. Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European languages? Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word taker for liver. Madhav Deshpande _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonia.ruppel at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 19:47:52 2025 From: antonia.ruppel at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 21:47:52 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, even when an AI does give specific references, that means *nothing*. Unless you recognise that reference and know for a fact it is right, you need to check the source yourself. Aleksandar, it's exactly as you say: when someone who isn't a trained philologist gets something like this *and believes it*, the problems begin for real. Apologies, I do not want to hijack this thread and turn it into one about AI; but I just wanted to reiterate that an AI saying that there is a cognate here or a mention there truly means nothing until we have verified that its claims/sources/references are indeed correct. All my best, Antonia On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 21:30, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thank you. Yes, I appreciate that the query is not about the first > occurrence of the word. But in terms of cultural significance, it would be > hard to beat the Brhadaranyaka. How does an AI engine choose which > references to offer and why do they seem so random, is what I find myself > wondering whenever I use one. And what happens when the readers are no > longer trained philologists? > > Best wishes > Aleksandar > > Get Outlook for Android > ------------------------------ > *From:* Madhav Deshpande > *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 3:15:28 PM > *To:* Uskokov, Aleksandar > *Cc:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude > > Yes, Alexander. There is not much of an issue with how old the word yak.rt > is. The discussion is more about the likely sources of jagri. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:06?PM Uskokov, Aleksandar < > aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote: > > Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the > very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the question of what > is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" > > https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ > > > *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM > *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude > > For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual > references: > > 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts > > The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the *"Raktavaha > Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). > Key References: > > - > > Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) > - > > *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( > *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). > - > > *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. > - > > Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) > - > > *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. > - > > *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). > - > > Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) > - > > *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. > > Example Verse (Charaka): > > *"????????????????? ??????..."* > *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* > ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* > > ------------------------------ > 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts > > The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. > Key References: > > - > > Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) > - > > Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict > dietary rules). > - > > Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) > - > > Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical > discussions. > - > > Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) > - > > Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily suffering. > > Example Passage: > > *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* > *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* > ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* > > ------------------------------ > 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? > > Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). > Key References: > > - > > Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) > - > > Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. > - > > S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) > - > > Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-a??hi*). > - > > Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) > - > > Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). > > Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): > > *"????-?????-???????..."* > *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* > ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* > > ------------------------------ > 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts > > The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. > Key References: > > - > > Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) > - > > A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease). > - > > Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) > - > > Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. > > Example Line: > > *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") > ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* > > ------------------------------ > Evolution Summary: > > 1. > > Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* > 2. > > Pali: *Yakana (???)* > 3. > > Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* > 4. > > Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* > 5. > > Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* > 6. > > Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* > > These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient > Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. > Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru *goes > back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it > a borrowing from Persian. > > Madhav M. Deshpandee > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Dear Rolf, > > I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information > provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar > *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? > *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain > the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow > the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad > hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of > Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? > *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common > feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of > a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, > than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > > Madhav > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Madhav, > > just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you > did with Claude.ai. > > This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): > > The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a well-established > history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language > family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: > ------------------------------ > ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* > > - > > In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: > - > > The *anatomical liver*, and > - > > *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep > emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. > > ------------------------------ > ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* > > - > > *Middle Persian*: > - > > The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*. > - > > *Old Persian*: > - > > The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on > related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. > > ------------------------------ > ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* > > - > > *Avestan* (East Iranian): > - > > *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. > - > > *Proto-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier > Indo-Iranian form. > - > > *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) > - > > *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: > - > > **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise > to many cognates across Indo-European languages. > > ------------------------------ > ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* > Language Word for "liver" Notes > *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match > *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate > *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) > *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE > origin) > *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by > metaphorical use ("life-organ") > ------------------------------ > ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* > > - > > In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly > metaphorical*: > - > > *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave > - > > *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person > - > > *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief > > This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in > European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the > seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. > ------------------------------ > ? Summary: > > - > > *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European > *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. > - > > It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan > *yakar?*. > - > > The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures > (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not > etymological. > > Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European > languages? > > > > Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: > > https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > > Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > taker for liver. > > Madhav Deshpande > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 20:17:47 2025 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 14:17:47 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> Message-ID: There is one important weakness with the "liver" hypothesis for jagr?. The *Vimalaprabh?* commentary almost certainly glosses jagr? as jalodara, "edema." This is not as clear in the Sarnath printed edition, which has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?ni. The phrase "jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api" is quoted from the *K**?**lacakra-tantra*, with the commentary adding jalodar?d?ni. However, the two very old palm-leaf manuscripts of the *Vimalaprabh?* show that the reading is actually jalodar?d?n rather than jalodar?d?ni. Thus: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?n. These plural accusatives are objects of the verb hanti. The neuter jalodar?d?ni could be understood as adding edema to liver, etc. But the masculine jalodar?d?n is almost certainly glossing the masculine compound instead of adding something more. So it is glossing the first word of the compound, jagr?, as meaning jalodara. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it Fri Aug 8 22:57:08 2025 From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 00:57:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> Message-ID: <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> > Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel ha scritto: > > Dear Raffaele, > > It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. > > But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? Cari saluti, Raffaele > > All my best, > Antonia > > > On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella > wrote: >> Dear Colleagues, >> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en ), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s ). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >> >> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >> >> Warmest wishes, >> Raffaele >> >>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY > ha scritto: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>> >>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here ; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>> >>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 . >>> >>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>> >>> All my best, >>> Antonia >>> >>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >> >> Prof. Raffaele Torella >> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >> Sapienza University of Rome >> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella >> >> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >> Cinque?per?mille -- *Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori*** *con il? 5?per?mille?alla Sapienza* Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit?? *80209930587 **Cinque?per?mille * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Aug 9 01:26:18 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 18:26:18 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Thanks Hans. That is a very good suggestion. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:30?PM Hock, Hans Henrich wrote: > Interesting evidence, esp. the Jaina Prakrit one. Could jagri and jigar(u) > be variant vernacularizations of Skt. yak.rt, plus additional Prakritic > changes (e.g. a > i after palatal, comparable to madhyama > majjihima? > > Hans Henrich > > On Aug 8, 2025, at 14:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > ? > > Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the > very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the question of what > is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" > > https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ > > > > > *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM > *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude > > For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual > references: > > 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts > > The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the *"Raktavaha > Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). > Key References: > > - > > Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) > - > > *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( > *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). > - > > *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. > - > > Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) > - > > *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. > - > > *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). > - > > Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) > - > > *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. > > Example Verse (Charaka): > > *"????????????????? ??????..."* > *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* > ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* > > ------------------------------ > 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts > > The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. > Key References: > > - > > Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) > - > > Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict > dietary rules). > - > > Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) > - > > Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical > discussions. > - > > Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) > - > > Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily suffering. > > Example Passage: > > *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* > *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* > ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* > > ------------------------------ > 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? > > Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). > Key References: > > - > > Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) > - > > Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. > - > > S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) > - > > Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-a??hi*). > - > > Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) > - > > Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). > > Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): > > *"????-?????-???????..."* > *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* > ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* > > ------------------------------ > 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts > > The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. > Key References: > > - > > Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) > - > > A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease). > - > > Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) > - > > Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. > > Example Line: > > *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") > ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* > > ------------------------------ > Evolution Summary: > > 1. > > Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* > 2. > > Pali: *Yakana (???)* > 3. > > Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* > 4. > > Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* > 5. > > Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* > 6. > > Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* > > These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient > Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. > Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru *goes > back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it > a borrowing from Persian. > > Madhav M. Deshpandee > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Dear Rolf, > > I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information > provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar > *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? > *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain > the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow > the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad > hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of > Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? > *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common > feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of > a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, > than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > > Madhav > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear Madhav, > > just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you > did with Claude.ai. > > This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): > > The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a well-established > history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language > family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: > ------------------------------ > ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* > > - > > In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: > - > > The *anatomical liver*, and > - > > *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep > emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. > > ------------------------------ > ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* > > - > > *Middle Persian*: > - > > The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*. > - > > *Old Persian*: > - > > The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on > related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. > > ------------------------------ > ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* > > - > > *Avestan* (East Iranian): > - > > *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. > - > > *Proto-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier > Indo-Iranian form. > - > > *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: > - > > Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) > - > > *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: > - > > **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise > to many cognates across Indo-European languages. > > ------------------------------ > ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* > Language Word for "liver" Notes > *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match > *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate > *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) > *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE > origin) > *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by > metaphorical use ("life-organ") > ------------------------------ > ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* > > - > > In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly > metaphorical*: > - > > *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave > - > > *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person > - > > *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief > > This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in > European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the > seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. > ------------------------------ > ? Summary: > > - > > *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European > *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. > - > > It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan > *yakar?*. > - > > The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures > (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not > etymological. > > Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European > languages? > > > > Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: > > https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > > > Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > taker for liver. > > Madhav Deshpande > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 05:19:52 2025 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:49:52 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> Message-ID: Jalodara refers to Ascites. Ascites being one of the consequences of Cirrhosis of Liver gives a connection between Jalodara and Liver, Yakrut. Jalodara is not Edema in general. It is an accumulation of fluid in Udara, Jala + Udara. On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:48?AM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > There is one important weakness with the "liver" hypothesis for jagr?. > The *Vimalaprabh?* commentary almost certainly glosses jagr? as jalodara, > "edema." This is not as clear in the Sarnath printed edition, which has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n > api jalodar?d?ni. The phrase "jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api" is quoted from > the *K**?**lacakra-tantra*, with the commentary adding jalodar?d?ni. > However, the two very old palm-leaf manuscripts of the *Vimalaprabh?* show > that the reading is actually jalodar?d?n rather than jalodar?d?ni. Thus: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n > api jalodar?d?n. These plural accusatives are objects of the verb hanti. > The neuter jalodar?d?ni could be understood as adding edema to liver, > etc. But the masculine jalodar?d?n is almost certainly glossing the > masculine compound instead of adding something more. So it is glossing the > first word of the compound, jagr?, as meaning jalodara. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Nagaraj Paturi Kulapati | Vice-Chancellor, INDICA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agnes.korn at cnrs.fr Sat Aug 9 07:41:51 2025 From: agnes.korn at cnrs.fr (Agnes Korn) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:41:51 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <9bij5QlGMV36Kh4iQEBh0RRX7azQ1WWmPycYWEyUscTSf9tjaRZGJbzyoPJFoq_KWfROOiLTzVzgy8qFDYE-31tv4H84ooqnKWgQc5kDb3g=@proton.me> References: <51AF992A-3198-4EAC-BDE0-217B28E84215@illinois.edu> <23BBD708-3CB0-405D-98E1-B00306DF1CFF@illinois.edu> <9bij5QlGMV36Kh4iQEBh0RRX7azQ1WWmPycYWEyUscTSf9tjaRZGJbzyoPJFoq_KWfROOiLTzVzgy8qFDYE-31tv4H84ooqnKWgQc5kDb3g=@proton.me> Message-ID: <44f75e21-8cdc-4585-8c0a-bcf051d3b960@cnrs.fr> Dear all, I agree with Hans Henrich that Hindi-Urdu jigar is probably a Persian borrowing. In Persian, jigar is regular from a preform such as yakar-(+ending). Other IE cognates can be found in EWAia (https://archive.org/details/mayrhofer-EWA/Mayrhofer_EWA%20v2%20%28na-ha%29%201996/), of course. The statement in "Claude" that "The initial *h?y- became "y" in Iranian languages" is true for Persian and some other Ir. languages, but NOT true for Iranian in general. Likewise incorrect are Middle Persian forms cited in this thread that preserve the middle -k-. This changed to -g- before MP texts start to be attested. y- also changed to j- in some on IA, I think, but I don't know whether any IA language would have regular jagr- from yakr.(t)-. Here's the entry from Turner: https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=601 Best, Agnes Le 08/08/2025 ? 18:56, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > No one said it is from Arabic. It could be from any of a number of > languages. The point is that the west to east movement is plausible > long before the Delhi Sultanate- something that is confirmed by > numerous examples without awaiting my minor contribution. > Matthew > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 18:51, Hock, Hans Henrich > > wrote: >> OK, but jagri cannot be from Arabic, which has kbd >> >>> On Aug 8, 2025, at 11:19, Matthew Kapstein >>> wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Overall, I am not sure. In an article that I will share with the >>> list when it?s done, I think I demonstrate quite conclusively a west >>> Semitic, probably Arabic, input in a 10th c Sanskrit text from >>> Kashmir, with which there was some intertextuality with the KCT. But >>> of course I do not ask that you accept my arguments until you have >>> seen them. >>> >>> best, >>> Matthew >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 17:44, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info >> Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <> wrote: >>>> Overall, I think Madhav?s suggestion that jagri is a vernacularized >>>> form of yak.rt, (re)borrowed into Sanskrit, makes the best sense. >>>> Hindi-Urdu jigar, by contrast, is most likely one of the many >>>> Persian words that came into the language during the extended >>>> period of Persianate Muslim rule >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> >>>> Hans Henrich >>>> >>>>> On Aug 8, 2025, at 10:15, Madhav Deshpande wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> It is indeed! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:13?AM Hock, Hans Henrich < >>>>> hhhock at illinois.edu> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Shouldn?t that be yak.rt? >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 8, 2025, at 09:59, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ?https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to >>>>>> Sanskrit word taker for liver. >>>>>> >>>>>> Madhav Deshpande >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_W >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 09:36:00 2025 From: jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com (Jean Michel DELIRE) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 11:36:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> Message-ID: Dear friends, How strange this conversation looks to me ! Having learned Latin first (in secondary school), then mathematics and ancient Greek (at the university) and finally Sanskrit (also at the university, and motivated by my interest in history of mathematics) for my PhD, I find it difficult to imagine things the other way round. Since I learned the three languages as dead languages, and with the method classical languages were taught in Europe, I was very surprised when I (first journey to India, 1996) met Indian scholars who could speak Sanskrit and even learned it this way. On the other hand, I am myself attracted by learning related modern languages, like modern Greek or Hindi, in order to utter sentences that evoke the ancient languages, so to say. My mother language, French, or Italian, already gave me a sense of the Latin sound. But, again, for me, Latin, ancient Greek or Sanskrit are languages I imagine only on paper or other supports, on which I learned them and still work (especially Sanskrit that I often translate from manuscripts). Concerning the differences between ancient Greek and Sanskrit, I must say that I was at first attracted by their mastery in my favourite subject, i.e. mathematics. And in their texts, I found many differences, of course : versification, quasi absence of diagrams, algorithmic approach VS hypothetico-deductive Greek maths, etc. (a long list), on the Sanskrit side. On a more general level, It is true, as you said, that ancient Greek has more intricate rules in syntax. But my feeling is that these rules give me the capacity of translating Greek sentences (with the help of a dictionary and a grammar), while I am too often a quia when I have to give meaning to a Sanskrit compound if I don't have the smallest idea of its purpose. And this is the only domain where I find Sanskrit more difficult than ancient Greek, which means that having learned ancient Greek facilitated the way to Sanskrit (except for the writing (of the nagari) which I considered as a game and mastered rather quickly). I don't know what it would be like to learn these two languages the other way round... Best regards, *Jean Michel DELIRE, PhD* *President of the Centre National d'Histoire des Sciences (KBR, Brussels)* *Lecturer on **Science and civilisation of India - Sanskrit Texts - IHEB (**University of Brussels, **ULB)* *Lecturer on History of mathematics - IHEB (ULB)* *Member of the Soci?t? Asiatique (Paris)* *Member of the International Association of Sanskrit Studies* *Member (Advisory Board) of the International Study Group on the Relations Between the History and Pedagogy of Mathematics* Le ven. 8 ao?t 2025 ? 19:04, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > Dear Colleagues, > I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum > Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en), which is probably known to > some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in > October 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s). In > October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian > Association for Sanskrit Studies. > > Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian > Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including > Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as > spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in > close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order > to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be > extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). > > Warmest wishes, > Raffaele > > Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto: > > Dear all, > > Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the > autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may > be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient > Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > > I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here > ; but > in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis > for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of > overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the > two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is > exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > > Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of > custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 > either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am > making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of > courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 > > . > > If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > > All my best, > Antonia > > PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the > third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting > Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we > find in ancient India. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI > > > Prof. Raffaele Torella > Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit > Sapienza University of Rome > wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella > > > *Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori* > > *con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza* > > Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? > *80209930587**Cinque per mille * > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr Sat Aug 9 10:12:39 2025 From: satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 12:12:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> Message-ID: <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Dear All, This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is threatened everywhere. A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things that may be of interest to the list. Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, workshops and seminars." https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination for their Latin curriculum: https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india Best wishes, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel ha scritto: >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > Cari saluti, > Raffaele > >> All my best, >> Antonia >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella > wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en ), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s ). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY > ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here ; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 . >>>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> Cinque?per?mille > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** From jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 12:09:06 2025 From: jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com (Jean Michel DELIRE) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 14:09:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. Best, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > Dear All, > > This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India > where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number > of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient > Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is > threatened everywhere. > > A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things > that may be of interest to the list. > > Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, > established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An > annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in > Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek > Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, > workshops and seminars." > > > https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi > > There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. > > > https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ > > On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, > see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. > > > https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ > > For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination > for their Latin curriculum: > > https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp > > I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin > and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: > > https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india > > Best wishes, > > Satyanad Kichenassamy > > Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < > rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: > >> > >> Dear Raffaele, > >> > >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you > know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek > and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and > would be delighted to help. > > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" > between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical > Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost > non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of > Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus > Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very > welcome. > >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly > unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among > other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted > at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they > do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual > scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of > the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of > long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of > course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in > intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. > However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to > acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for > accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: > ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will > be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am > in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent > years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > > > Cari saluti, > > Raffaele > > > >> All my best, > >> Antonia > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < > raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > wrote: > >>> Dear Colleagues, > >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum > Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), > which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful > Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). > In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian > Association for Sanskrit Studies. > >>> > >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the > Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin > (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and > Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, > with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) > and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit > Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian > Universities). > >>> > >>> Warmest wishes, > >>> Raffaele > >>> > >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > ha > scritto: > >>>> > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for > the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that > may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient > Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > >>>> > >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; > but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent > basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount > of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between > the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek > has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > >>>> > >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of > custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 > either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am > making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of > courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf > >. > >>>> > >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > >>>> > >>>> All my best, > >>>> Antonia > >>>> > >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the > third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting > Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we > find in ancient India. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI > < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 > > > >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella > >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit > >>> Sapienza University of Rome > >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < > https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB > > > >>> > >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori > >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza > >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 > >>> Cinque per mille < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > ********************************************** > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > Professor of Mathematics > Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) > and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) > Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > France > Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > ********************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr Sat Aug 9 13:15:07 2025 From: satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr (Satyanad Kichenassamy) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 15:15:07 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> Did anyone mention that today is World Sanskrit Day ? Le 09/08/2025 ? 03:26, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > Thanks Hans. That is a very good suggestion. > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:30?PM Hock, Hans Henrich > wrote: > >> Interesting evidence, esp. the Jaina Prakrit one. Could jagri and jigar(u) >> be variant vernacularizations of Skt. yak.rt, plus additional Prakritic >> changes (e.g. a > i after palatal, comparable to madhyama > majjihima? >> >> Hans Henrich >> >> On Aug 8, 2025, at 14:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in the >> very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the question of what >> is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. >> >> Best wishes, >> Aleksandar >> >> Aleksandar Uskokov >> >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >> >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale >> University >> >> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu >> >> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" >> >> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ >> >> >> >> >> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY >> *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM >> *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < >> indology at list.indology.info> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude >> >> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual >> references: >> >> 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts >> >> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the *"Raktavaha >> Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) >> - >> >> *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( >> *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). >> - >> >> *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. >> - >> >> Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) >> - >> >> *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. >> - >> >> *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). >> - >> >> Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) >> - >> >> *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. >> >> Example Verse (Charaka): >> >> *"????????????????? ??????..."* >> *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* >> ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* >> >> ------------------------------ >> 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts >> >> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) >> - >> >> Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict >> dietary rules). >> - >> >> Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) >> - >> >> Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical >> discussions. >> - >> >> Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) >> - >> >> Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily suffering. >> >> Example Passage: >> >> *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* >> *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* >> ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* >> >> ------------------------------ >> 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? >> >> Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) >> - >> >> Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. >> - >> >> S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) >> - >> >> Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-a??hi*). >> - >> >> Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) >> - >> >> Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). >> >> Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): >> >> *"????-?????-???????..."* >> *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* >> ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* >> >> ------------------------------ >> 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts >> >> The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. >> Key References: >> >> - >> >> Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) >> - >> >> A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease). >> - >> >> Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) >> - >> >> Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. >> >> Example Line: >> >> *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") >> ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* >> >> ------------------------------ >> Evolution Summary: >> >> 1. >> >> Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* >> 2. >> >> Pali: *Yakana (???)* >> 3. >> >> Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* >> 4. >> >> Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* >> 5. >> >> Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* >> 6. >> >> Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* >> >> These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient >> Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. >> Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru *goes >> back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still consider it >> a borrowing from Persian. >> >> Madhav M. Deshpandee >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: >> >> Dear Rolf, >> >> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information >> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar >> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagr? >> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain >> the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow >> the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad >> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of >> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as *r? >> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common >> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of >> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, >> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. >> >> Madhav >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < >> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear Madhav, >> >> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as you >> did with Claude.ai. >> >> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): >> >> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a well-established >> history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language >> family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: >> ------------------------------ >> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* >> >> - >> >> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: >> - >> >> The *anatomical liver*, and >> - >> >> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep >> emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* >> >> - >> >> *Middle Persian*: >> - >> >> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*. >> - >> >> *Old Persian*: >> - >> >> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based on >> related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* >> >> - >> >> *Avestan* (East Iranian): >> - >> >> *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. >> - >> >> *Proto-Iranian*: >> - >> >> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier >> Indo-Iranian form. >> - >> >> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: >> - >> >> Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) >> - >> >> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: >> - >> >> **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives rise >> to many cognates across Indo-European languages. >> >> ------------------------------ >> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* >> Language Word for "liver" Notes >> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match >> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate >> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) >> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely non-IE >> origin) >> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by >> metaphorical use ("life-organ") >> ------------------------------ >> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* >> >> - >> >> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly >> metaphorical*: >> - >> >> *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave >> - >> >> *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person >> - >> >> *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief >> >> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in >> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the >> seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. >> ------------------------------ >> ? Summary: >> >> - >> >> *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European >> *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. >> - >> >> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan >> *yakar?*. >> - >> >> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures >> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not >> etymological. >> >> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across Indo-European >> languages? >> >> >> >> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: >> >> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >> >> >> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word >> taker for liver. >> >> Madhav Deshpande >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** From andreagutierrez at utexas.edu Sat Aug 9 15:07:22 2025 From: andreagutierrez at utexas.edu (Andrea Lorene Gutierrez) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 10:07:22 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: We even see this Persian-Urdu jigar come into modern Tamil in the sherbet type drink of Tamil Nadu, jigarthanda, which cools the heart/stomach/core, in its popular understanding. Dr. Andrea Guti?rrez Assistant Professor of Instruction Department of Asian Studies The University of Texas at Austin https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/asianstudies/faculty/alg3485 https://utexas.academia.edu/AndreaLoreneGutierrez On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:15?AM Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Did anyone mention that today is World Sanskrit Day ? > > Le 09/08/2025 ? 03:26, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > Thanks Hans. That is a very good suggestion. > > > > Madhav > > > > Madhav M. Deshpande > > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, > India > > > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:30?PM Hock, Hans Henrich > > wrote: > > > >> Interesting evidence, esp. the Jaina Prakrit one. Could jagri and > jigar(u) > >> be variant vernacularizations of Skt. yak.rt, plus additional Prakritic > >> changes (e.g. a > i after palatal, comparable to madhyama > majjihima? > >> > >> Hans Henrich > >> > >> On Aug 8, 2025, at 14:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < > >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> > >> ? > >> > >> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in > the > >> very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the question of what > >> is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Aleksandar > >> > >> Aleksandar Uskokov > >> > >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > >> > >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > >> University > >> > >> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > >> > >> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" > >> > >> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ > >> < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spp2MW0kH$ > > > >> > >> > >> > >> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > >> < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spl0GFnt_$ > > > >> ------------------------------ > >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > >> Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > >> *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM > >> *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < > >> indology at list.indology.info> > >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude > >> > >> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual > >> references: > >> > >> 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts > >> > >> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of the > *"Raktavaha > >> Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). > >> Key References: > >> > >> - > >> > >> Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) > >> - > >> > >> *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( > >> *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). > >> - > >> > >> *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. > >> - > >> > >> Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) > >> - > >> > >> *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. > >> - > >> > >> *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). > >> - > >> > >> Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) > >> - > >> > >> *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. > >> > >> Example Verse (Charaka): > >> > >> *"????????????????? ??????..."* > >> *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* > >> ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts > >> > >> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical contexts. > >> Key References: > >> > >> - > >> > >> Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) > >> - > >> > >> Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict > >> dietary rules). > >> - > >> > >> Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) > >> - > >> > >> Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical > >> discussions. > >> - > >> > >> Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) > >> - > >> > >> Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily > suffering. > >> > >> Example Passage: > >> > >> *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* > >> *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* > >> ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? > >> > >> Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). > >> Key References: > >> > >> - > >> > >> Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) > >> - > >> > >> Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. > >> - > >> > >> S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) > >> - > >> > >> Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" (*jigara-a??hi*). > >> - > >> > >> Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) > >> - > >> > >> Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). > >> > >> Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): > >> > >> *"????-?????-???????..."* > >> *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* > >> ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts > >> > >> The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. > >> Key References: > >> > >> - > >> > >> Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) > >> - > >> > >> A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver disease). > >> - > >> > >> Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) > >> - > >> > >> Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. > >> > >> Example Line: > >> > >> *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") > >> ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> Evolution Summary: > >> > >> 1. > >> > >> Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* > >> 2. > >> > >> Pali: *Yakana (???)* > >> 3. > >> > >> Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* > >> 4. > >> > >> Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* > >> 5. > >> > >> Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* > >> 6. > >> > >> Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* > >> > >> These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient > >> Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists it. > >> Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru > *goes > >> back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still > consider it > >> a borrowing from Persian. > >> > >> Madhav M. Deshpandee > >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, > India > >> > >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Rolf, > >> > >> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the > information > >> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian > *jigar > >> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think > *jagr? > >> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain > >> the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow > >> the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many ad > >> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y > *of > >> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as > *r? > >> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common > >> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see > more of > >> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, > >> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > >> > >> Madhav > >> Madhav M. Deshpande > >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, > India > >> > >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > >> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Madhav, > >> > >> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as > you > >> did with Claude.ai. > >> > >> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): > >> > >> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a > well-established > >> history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language > >> family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* > >> > >> - > >> > >> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: > >> - > >> > >> The *anatomical liver*, and > >> - > >> > >> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep > >> emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* > >> > >> - > >> > >> *Middle Persian*: > >> - > >> > >> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*. > >> - > >> > >> *Old Persian*: > >> - > >> > >> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based > on > >> related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* > >> > >> - > >> > >> *Avestan* (East Iranian): > >> - > >> > >> *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. > >> - > >> > >> *Proto-Iranian*: > >> - > >> > >> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier > >> Indo-Iranian form. > >> - > >> > >> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: > >> - > >> > >> Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) > >> - > >> > >> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: > >> - > >> > >> **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives > rise > >> to many cognates across Indo-European languages. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* > >> Language Word for "liver" Notes > >> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match > >> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate > >> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) > >> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely > non-IE > >> origin) > >> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by > >> metaphorical use ("life-organ") > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* > >> > >> - > >> > >> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly > >> metaphorical*: > >> - > >> > >> *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave > >> - > >> > >> *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person > >> - > >> > >> *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief > >> > >> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in > >> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the > >> seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? Summary: > >> > >> - > >> > >> *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from > *Proto-Indo-European > >> *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. > >> - > >> > >> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan > >> *yakar?*. > >> - > >> > >> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures > >> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not > >> etymological. > >> > >> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across > Indo-European > >> languages? > >> > >> > >> > >> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: > >> > >> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > >> < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spllBBM6k$ > > > >> > >> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word > >> taker for liver. > >> > >> Madhav Deshpande > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps:// > list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ > > > >> > >> -- > >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spnf2lNt0$ > > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> > >> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > ********************************************** > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > Professor of Mathematics > Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) > and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) > Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > France > Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > ********************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 15:18:00 2025 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 17:18:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Dear all, I am delighted by the discussion my mere course announcement has engendered! To reply to a few of the points raised: Prof. Torella, I am very happy to hear that the Accademia's plans to also make access to their programmes available to young women is going ahead! Just imagine the reach it could have had with its wonderful (and in many ways: unique) offerings if those had been open to women even in its first 25 years of existence. I know I am not the only one who will put their full support behind AVN once this change for the better has been made. Prof. Delire, I fully share your perspective! Like most Europeans/westerners, I learned Latin first, then Greek, and Sanskrit only later. Through the existence of Yogic Studies (which is open to everyone independently of prior training, as long as they bring with them the tenacity to make their way through the grammar of Sanskrit, Pali, Hindi or Tibetan), there is a large group of students with competence in Sanskrit who did not have the possibility to learn Latin or Greek in school. They expressed their interest in learning both, and given that (a) my own background is as a Classicist and Indo-Europeanist and (b) I always make use of my students' prior language knowledge in my classes, no matter whether that's English, German or something else, it only made sense to offer Latin for Sanskritists (with ~25 students completing the year-long sequence of introduction, Ovid readings and Seneca readings) and now Greek for Sanskritists. I should say, though (hoping you will forgive me for sneaking in an ad for Yogic Studies here), that YS also offers Sanskrit via P??ini and spoken Sanskrit, both taught by Varun Khanna (Swarthmore). Prof. Kichenassamy, what useful links, thank you! Through a friend who is a Japanese Hellenist, I have long been interested in Classics in East Asia; I've never taken the time to look systematically into what is offered at Indian universities (but as you say, a lot of teaching of the languages related to the bible is offered by Christian communities). All my very best from summery Frankfurt, Antonia On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE wrote: > May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage > des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which > is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at > the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the > early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why > she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. > > Best, > > Jean Michel Delire > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > >> Dear All, >> >> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >> threatened everywhere. >> >> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >> that may be of interest to the list. >> >> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >> workshops and seminars." >> >> >> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >> >> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >> >> >> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >> >> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >> >> >> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >> >> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >> for their Latin curriculum: >> >> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >> >> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >> >> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> >> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >> > >> >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < >> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you >> know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek >> and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and >> would be delighted to help. >> > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create >> ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the >> classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been >> almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the >> teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of >> the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, >> very welcome. >> >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly >> unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among >> other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted >> at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they >> do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >> > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of >> annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the >> regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the >> accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in >> separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to >> the participants in intensive courses or in the many international >> conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant >> limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi >> nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. >> Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: >> Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the >> Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most >> brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very >> imposing name: Anandavardhan? >> > >> > Cari saluti, >> > Raffaele >> > >> >> All my best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < >> raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >> >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium >> Novum Academy (https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), >> which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful >> Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). >> In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian >> Association for Sanskrit Studies. >> >>> >> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the >> Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin >> (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and >> Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, >> with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) >> and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit >> Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian >> Universities). >> >>> >> >>> Warmest wishes, >> >>> Raffaele >> >>> >> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info > ha >> scritto: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear all, >> >>>> >> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for >> the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that >> may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient >> Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >> >>>> >> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; >> but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent >> basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount >> of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between >> the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek >> has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >> >>>> >> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots >> of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 >> either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am >> making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of >> courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf >> >. >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >> >>>> >> >>>> All my best, >> >>>> Antonia >> >>>> >> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; >> the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting >> Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we >> find in ancient India. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >>>> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 >> > >> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >> >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >> >>> Sapienza University of Rome >> >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB >> > >> >>> >> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >> >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >> >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >> >>> Cinque per mille < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> ********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -- Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS Lehrbeauftragte, Lehrstuhl f?r vergleichende und indogermanistische Sprachwissenschaft, LMU M?nchen The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit: cambridge-sanskrit.org An Introductory Sanskrit Reader: brill.com/sanskrit The Sanskrit Studies Podcast: sanskritstudiespodcast.com Latest Video: What is the 'Oldest Language'? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Sat Aug 9 16:01:22 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 16:01:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. Matthew On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < wrote: > May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. > > Best, > > Jean Michel Delire > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > >> Dear All, >> >> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >> threatened everywhere. >> >> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >> that may be of interest to the list. >> >> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >> workshops and seminars." >> >> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >> >> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >> >> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >> >> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >> >> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >> >> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >> for their Latin curriculum: >> >> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >> >> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >> >> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> >> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear Raffaele, >>>> >>>> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. >>> I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >>>> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >>> Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? >>> >>> Cari saluti, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > wrote: >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>>>> >>>>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>>>> >>>>> Warmest wishes, >>>>> Raffaele >>>>> >>>>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info > ha scritto: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>>>> >>>>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>>>> >>>>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>>>> >>>>>> All my best, >>>>>> Antonia >>>>>> >>>>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>>>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>>>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>>>> Sapienza University of Rome >>>>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>>>> >>>>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>>>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>>>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>>>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> ********************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Sat Aug 9 16:03:49 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 16:03:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: And here is a link to it https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57970700.image On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 18:02, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 18:02, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < wrote: > Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. > Matthew > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < [indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < wrote: > >> May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. >> >> Best, >> >> Jean Michel Delire >> >> Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : >> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >>> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >>> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >>> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >>> threatened everywhere. >>> >>> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >>> that may be of interest to the list. >>> >>> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >>> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >>> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >>> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >>> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >>> workshops and seminars." >>> >>> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >>> >>> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >>> >>> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >>> >>> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >>> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >>> >>> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >>> >>> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >>> for their Latin curriculum: >>> >>> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >>> >>> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >>> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >>> >>> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Satyanad Kichenassamy >>> >>> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Raffaele, >>>>> >>>>> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. >>>> I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >>>>> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >>>> Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? >>>> >>>> Cari saluti, >>>> Raffaele >>>> >>>>> All my best, >>>>> Antonia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > wrote: >>>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>>>>> >>>>>> Warmest wishes, >>>>>> Raffaele >>>>>> >>>>>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info > ha scritto: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All my best, >>>>>>> Antonia >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>>>>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>>>>> Sapienza University of Rome >>>>>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>>>>> >>>>>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>>>>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>>>>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>>>>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> -- >>> ********************************************** >>> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >>> Professor of Mathematics >>> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >>> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >>> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >>> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >>> France >>> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >>> ********************************************** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonia.ruppel at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 16:26:57 2025 From: antonia.ruppel at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:26:57 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Indeed, most older Sanskrit textbooks etc written in European languages are based on the (usually tacit) assumption that the reader already knows Latin and Greek from their secondary education. I particularly like Lanman in his Reader stating that 'the easy Nala is the Xenophon's Anabasis of Sanskrit students', and translating some phrases in his notes into Latin or Greek. I don't think that, at least in anglophone countries, this assumption can still be made, and for many or perhaps most undergraduates studying Sanskrit at college/university, Sanskrit is the first ancient language they encounter. (At least that's what 20 years teaching at universities in several countries has taught me.) I am writing a book 'Sanskrit for Classicists for CUP' and am grateful for the reference to Mawet's grammar, which I had not heard of before. All my best, Antonia On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 18:02, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the > expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about > its being in French. > Matthew > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > > > wrote: > > May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage > des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which > is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at > the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the > early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why > she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit > languages. > > Best, > > Jean Michel Delire > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > >> Dear All, >> >> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >> threatened everywhere. >> >> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >> that may be of interest to the list. >> >> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >> workshops and seminars." >> >> >> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >> >> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >> >> >> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >> >> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >> >> >> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >> >> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >> for their Latin curriculum: >> >> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >> >> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >> >> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> >> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >> > >> >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < >> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you >> know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek >> and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and >> would be delighted to help. >> > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create >> ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the >> classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been >> almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the >> teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of >> the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, >> very welcome. >> >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly >> unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among >> other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted >> at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they >> do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >> > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of >> annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the >> regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the >> accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in >> separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to >> the participants in intensive courses or in the many international >> conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant >> limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi >> nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. >> Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: >> Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the >> Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most >> brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very >> imposing name: Anandavardhan? >> > >> > Cari saluti, >> > Raffaele >> > >> >> All my best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < >> raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >> >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium >> Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), >> which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful >> Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). >> In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian >> Association for Sanskrit Studies. >> >>> >> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the >> Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin >> (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and >> Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, >> with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) >> and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit >> Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian >> Universities). >> >>> >> >>> Warmest wishes, >> >>> Raffaele >> >>> >> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info > ha >> scritto: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear all, >> >>>> >> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for >> the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that >> may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient >> Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >> >>>> >> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; >> but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent >> basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount >> of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between >> the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek >> has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >> >>>> >> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots >> of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 >> either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am >> making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of >> courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >> >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >> >>>> >> >>>> All my best, >> >>>> Antonia >> >>>> >> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; >> the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting >> Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we >> find in ancient India. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >>>> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >> >> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >> >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >> >>> Sapienza University of Rome >> >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >> >> >>> >> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >> >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >> >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >> >>> Cinque per mille < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> >> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> ********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Sat Aug 9 16:41:21 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 16:41:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Dear Matthew, I smile at your sense of humour. Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! Sa?ptapadi?nam, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY de la part de Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 ? : jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Cc : Indology List Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. Matthew On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY > wrote: May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. Best, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : Dear All, This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is threatened everywhere. A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things that may be of interest to the list. Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, workshops and seminars." https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination for their Latin curriculum: https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india Best wishes, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > Cari saluti, > Raffaele > >> All my best, >> Antonia >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it >> wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 18:14:48 2025 From: jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com (Jean Michel DELIRE) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 20:14:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le monde comprendra). La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par les exp?riences - assez nombreuses *malheureusement* - d'incompr?hension du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais bien entendu. Jean Michel Delire, P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > Dear Matthew, > > I smile at your sense of humour. > > Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it > as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! > > Sa?ptapadi?nam, > > Lyne > > > > Lyne Bansat-Boudon > > Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde > > Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses > > Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France > ------------------------------ > *De :* INDOLOGY de la part de > Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > *Envoy? :* samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 > *? :* jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com > *Cc :* Indology List > *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists > > Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the > expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about > its being in French. > Matthew > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > > > wrote: > > May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage > des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which > is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at > the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the > early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why > she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. > > Best, > > Jean Michel Delire > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear All, > > This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India > where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number > of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient > Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is > threatened everywhere. > > A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things > that may be of interest to the list. > > Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, > established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An > annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in > Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek > Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, > workshops and seminars." > > > https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi > > There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. > > > https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ > > On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, > see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. > > > https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ > > For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination > for their Latin curriculum: > > https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp > > I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin > and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: > > https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india > > Best wishes, > > Satyanad Kichenassamy > > Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < > rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: > >> > >> Dear Raffaele, > >> > >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you > know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek > and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and > would be delighted to help. > > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" > between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical > Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost > non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of > Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus > Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very > welcome. > >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly > unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among > other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted > at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they > do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual > scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of > the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of > long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of > course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in > intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. > However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to > acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for > accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: > ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will > be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am > in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent > years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > > > Cari saluti, > > Raffaele > > > >> All my best, > >> Antonia > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < > raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > > wrote: > >>> Dear Colleagues, > >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum > Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), > which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful > Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). > In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian > Association for Sanskrit Studies. > >>> > >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the > Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin > (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and > Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, > with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) > and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit > Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian > Universities). > >>> > >>> Warmest wishes, > >>> Raffaele > >>> > >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > ha > scritto: > >>>> > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for > the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that > may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient > Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > >>>> > >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here > < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; > but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent > basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount > of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between > the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek > has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > >>>> > >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of > custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 > either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am > making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of > courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf > >. > >>>> > >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > >>>> > >>>> All my best, > >>>> Antonia > >>>> > >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the > third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting > Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we > find in ancient India. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < > > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 > > > >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella > >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit > >>> Sapienza University of Rome > >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < > https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB > > > >>> > >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori > >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza > >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 > >>> Cinque per mille < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > ********************************************** > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > Professor of Mathematics > Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) > and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) > Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > France > Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > ********************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Aug 9 18:30:38 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:30:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Lieber Jean Michel, ich habe ?hnliche Erfahrungen mit meinen deutschsprachigen Ver?ffentlichungen gemacht Freundlichen Gru? Hans Henrich On Aug 9, 2025, at 13:15, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY wrote: ? Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le monde comprendra). La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par les exp?riences - assez nombreuses malheureusement - d'incompr?hension du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais bien entendu. Jean Michel Delire, P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear Matthew, I smile at your sense of humour. Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! Sa?ptapadi?nam, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY > de la part de Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 ? : jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com > Cc : Indology List > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. Matthew On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY > wrote: May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. Best, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : Dear All, This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is threatened everywhere. A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things that may be of interest to the list. Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, workshops and seminars." https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination for their Latin curriculum: https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india Best wishes, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > Cari saluti, > Raffaele > >> All my best, >> Antonia >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it >> wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPb4VFucC$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonia.ruppel at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 18:32:36 2025 From: antonia.ruppel at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 20:32:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Lieber Jean Michel, auf Classicist-L, dem altphilologischen Gegenstueck zur Indology list, werden Diskussionen ?ber Erwartungen, dass ein Forscher nicht nur Englisch, sondern auch z. B. Franz?sisch oder Deutsch lesen k?nnen muss, gerne mit Anschuldigungen niedergeschossen, solche Erwartungen seien 'elit?r'; und tats?chlich ist Fremdsprachenunterricht, wie wir ihn auf dem europ?ischen Kontinent genie?en, im angels?chsischen Raum immer h?ufiger das Privileg der Reichen. Genau hier, wie Sie auch sagen, wird die KI (oder auch das gute alte google translate) uns hoffentlich helfen. Ich finde es praktisch, mit dem Englischen eine lingua franca zu haben, in der wir uns alle verstehen; aber als Forscher muessen wir eben auch das verstehen, was nicht auf English ist. Bon fin de semaine (sic) a tous, Antonia On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 20:15, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, > > Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque > vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. > Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, > je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le > monde comprendra). > La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par > les exp?riences - assez nombreuses *malheureusement* - d'incompr?hension > du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de > ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le > 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - > m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel > adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, > l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos > livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans > leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela > m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? > avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais > bien entendu. > > Jean Michel Delire, > > P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas > r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons > l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) > > > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > >> Dear Matthew, >> >> I smile at your sense of humour. >> >> Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it >> as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! >> >> Sa?ptapadi?nam, >> >> Lyne >> >> >> >> Lyne Bansat-Boudon >> >> Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde >> >> Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses >> >> Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France >> ------------------------------ >> *De :* INDOLOGY de la part de >> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >> *Envoy? :* samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 >> *? :* jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com >> *Cc :* Indology List >> *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists >> >> Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the >> expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about >> its being in French. >> Matthew >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info >> > >> wrote: >> >> May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage >> des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which >> is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at >> the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the >> early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why >> she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. >> >> Best, >> >> Jean Michel Delire >> >> Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : >> >> Dear All, >> >> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >> threatened everywhere. >> >> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >> that may be of interest to the list. >> >> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >> workshops and seminars." >> >> >> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >> >> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >> >> >> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >> >> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >> >> >> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >> >> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >> for their Latin curriculum: >> >> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >> >> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >> >> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> >> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >> > >> >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < >> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you >> know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek >> and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and >> would be delighted to help. >> > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create >> ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the >> classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been >> almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the >> teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of >> the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, >> very welcome. >> >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly >> unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among >> other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted >> at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they >> do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >> > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of >> annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the >> regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the >> accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in >> separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to >> the participants in intensive courses or in the many international >> conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant >> limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi >> nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. >> Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: >> Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the >> Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most >> brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very >> imposing name: Anandavardhan? >> > >> > Cari saluti, >> > Raffaele >> > >> >> All my best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < >> raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >> >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium >> Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), >> which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful >> Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). >> In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian >> Association for Sanskrit Studies. >> >>> >> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the >> Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin >> (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and >> Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, >> with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) >> and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit >> Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian >> Universities). >> >>> >> >>> Warmest wishes, >> >>> Raffaele >> >>> >> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info > ha >> scritto: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear all, >> >>>> >> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for >> the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that >> may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient >> Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >> >>>> >> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; >> but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent >> basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount >> of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between >> the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek >> has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >> >>>> >> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots >> of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 >> either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am >> making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of >> courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf >> >. >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >> >>>> >> >>>> All my best, >> >>>> Antonia >> >>>> >> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; >> the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting >> Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we >> find in ancient India. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >>>> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 >> > >> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >> >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >> >>> Sapienza University of Rome >> >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB >> > >> >>> >> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >> >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >> >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >> >>> Cinque per mille < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> ********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 18:38:08 2025 From: jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com (Jean Michel DELIRE) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 20:38:08 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Merci ? tous pour vos messages, Cependant, m?fiez-vous de la traduction automatique de Google, cela donne pour le message en allemand de Hans Henrich, qui me dit avoir eu des exp?riences similaires (aux miennes) avec ses publications : 'j'ai des connaissances approfondies avec mes pratiques allemandes'. Cela n'a rien ? voir ! A bient?t, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 20:30, Hock, Hans Henrich a ?crit : > Lieber Jean Michel, > > ich habe ?hnliche Erfahrungen mit meinen deutschsprachigen > Ver?ffentlichungen gemacht > > Freundlichen Gru? > > Hans Henrich > > On Aug 9, 2025, at 13:15, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > ? > Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, > > Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque > vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. > Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, > je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le > monde comprendra). > La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par > les exp?riences - assez nombreuses *malheureusement* - d'incompr?hension > du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de > ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le > 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - > m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel > adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, > l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos > livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans > leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela > m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? > avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais > bien entendu. > > Jean Michel Delire, > > P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas > r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons > l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) > > > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > >> Dear Matthew, >> >> I smile at your sense of humour. >> >> Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it >> as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! >> >> Sa?ptapadi?nam, >> >> Lyne >> >> >> >> Lyne Bansat-Boudon >> >> Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde >> >> Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses >> >> Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France >> ------------------------------ >> *De :* INDOLOGY de la part de >> Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >> *Envoy? :* samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 >> *? :* jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com >> *Cc :* Indology List >> *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists >> >> Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the >> expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about >> its being in French. >> Matthew >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info >> > >> wrote: >> >> May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage >> des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which >> is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at >> the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the >> early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why >> she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. >> >> Best, >> >> Jean Michel Delire >> >> Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : >> >> Dear All, >> >> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India >> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number >> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient >> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >> threatened everywhere. >> >> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things >> that may be of interest to the list. >> >> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An >> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek >> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >> workshops and seminars." >> >> >> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >> >> >> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >> >> >> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >> >> >> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, >> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >> >> >> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >> >> >> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination >> for their Latin curriculum: >> >> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >> >> >> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin >> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >> >> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Satyanad Kichenassamy >> >> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >> > >> >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < >> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you >> know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek >> and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and >> would be delighted to help. >> > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create >> ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the >> classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been >> almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the >> teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of >> the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, >> very welcome. >> >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly >> unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among >> other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted >> at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they >> do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? >> > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of >> annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the >> regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the >> accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in >> separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to >> the participants in intensive courses or in the many international >> conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant >> limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi >> nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. >> Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: >> Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the >> Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most >> brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very >> imposing name: Anandavardhan? >> > >> > Cari saluti, >> > Raffaele >> > >> >> All my best, >> >> Antonia >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < >> raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >> >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium >> Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np >> >), >> which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful >> Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj >> >). >> In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian >> Association for Sanskrit Studies. >> >>> >> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the >> Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin >> (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and >> Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, >> with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) >> and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit >> Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian >> Universities). >> >>> >> >>> Warmest wishes, >> >>> Raffaele >> >>> >> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info > ha >> scritto: >> >>>> >> >>>> Dear all, >> >>>> >> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for >> the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that >> may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient >> Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >> >>>> >> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here >> < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA >> >; >> but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent >> basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount >> of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between >> the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek >> has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >> >>>> >> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots >> of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 >> either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am >> making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of >> courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf >> >> >. >> >>>> >> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >> >>>> >> >>>> All my best, >> >>>> Antonia >> >>>> >> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; >> the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting >> Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we >> find in ancient India. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >>>> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 >> >> > >> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >> >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >> >>> Sapienza University of Rome >> >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella >> < >> >> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB >> >> > >> >>> >> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >> >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >> >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >> >>> Cinque per mille < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> >> ********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!8EcX_UvXOicYzN9Zu-osnkdEODnzBuGiTDwZvWH1jLdL6zmAzWUd5x0p9Vj5_QXQZTq4YG0ya1LAjV6uYlqSPb4VFucC$ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hhhock at illinois.edu Sat Aug 9 18:43:46 2025 From: hhhock at illinois.edu (Hock, Hans Henrich) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:43:46 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: <95F3BC2F-1E1C-40C1-9DFA-2B2D495A9178@illinois.edu> Not to speak of Indian colleagues who may know three or four Indian languages and English but may not have access to French and/or German instruction (and probably none to Italian or Spanish), but who can fluently read a Hindi tika on a Sanskrit text. How many of us in the West can do that? Like it or not, if we want to reach a broader audience, we have to use English Best wishes Hans Henrich On Aug 9, 2025, at 13:33, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY wrote: ? Lieber Jean Michel, auf Classicist-L, dem altphilologischen Gegenstueck zur Indology list, werden Diskussionen ?ber Erwartungen, dass ein Forscher nicht nur Englisch, sondern auch z. B. Franz?sisch oder Deutsch lesen k?nnen muss, gerne mit Anschuldigungen niedergeschossen, solche Erwartungen seien 'elit?r'; und tats?chlich ist Fremdsprachenunterricht, wie wir ihn auf dem europ?ischen Kontinent genie?en, im angels?chsischen Raum immer h?ufiger das Privileg der Reichen. Genau hier, wie Sie auch sagen, wird die KI (oder auch das gute alte google translate) uns hoffentlich helfen. Ich finde es praktisch, mit dem Englischen eine lingua franca zu haben, in der wir uns alle verstehen; aber als Forscher muessen wir eben auch das verstehen, was nicht auf English ist. Bon fin de semaine (sic) a tous, Antonia On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 20:15, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY > wrote: Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le monde comprendra). La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par les exp?riences - assez nombreuses malheureusement - d'incompr?hension du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais bien entendu. Jean Michel Delire, P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear Matthew, I smile at your sense of humour. Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! Sa?ptapadi?nam, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY > de la part de Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 ? : jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com > Cc : Indology List > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. Matthew On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY > wrote: May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. Best, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : Dear All, This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is threatened everywhere. A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things that may be of interest to the list. Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, workshops and seminars." https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination for their Latin curriculum: https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india Best wishes, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > Cari saluti, > Raffaele > >> All my best, >> Antonia >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it >> wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!_gtZuSFzvaLo4ar3vv1XidNBU3XlYJFD90ryvS47KpELv_159AviJTtVmS5livGsCgyFxVOQzHbEsOXqbEvldN1sA6Y8$ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Sat Aug 9 18:46:58 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 18:46:58 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Cher Jean-Michel, Je serais au regret que vous vous sentiez offens? ! Ce n'?tait l? que jeu d'esprit, bien s?r! Et je partage pleinement votre analyse de la condition qui nous est faite et ? laquelle nous devons nous r?soudre, non sans quelques acc?s de r?bellion, parfois, ? l'?gal, semble-t-il, de nos coll?gues germanophones. En ces temps de d?ferlement de d?testation (pour dire le moins), restons sereins et joyeusement lucides! "Glissez, mortels, n'appuyez pas", vers c?l?bre qui ne serait, du reste, ni de La Fontaine, ni de Voltaire. A qui se fier! Amiti?s, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : Jean Michel DELIRE Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 20:14 ? : Lyne Bansat-Boudon Cc : Matthew Kapstein ; Indology List Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Vous n?obtenez pas souvent d?e-mail ? partir de jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com. Pourquoi c?est important Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le monde comprendra). La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par les exp?riences - assez nombreuses malheureusement - d'incompr?hension du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais bien entendu. Jean Michel Delire, P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear Matthew, I smile at your sense of humour. Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! Sa?ptapadi?nam, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY > de la part de Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 ? : jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com > Cc : Indology List > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. Matthew On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY > wrote: May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. Best, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : Dear All, This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is threatened everywhere. A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things that may be of interest to the list. Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, workshops and seminars." https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination for their Latin curriculum: https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india Best wishes, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > Cari saluti, > Raffaele > >> All my best, >> Antonia >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it >> wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 19:37:46 2025 From: jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com (Jean Michel DELIRE) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 21:37:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Ch?re Lyne, Je ne me sens nullement offens?, seulement triste ? l'id?e que nous ne puissions utiliser nos propres langues, qui sont toutes si riches, au lieu de nous exprimer - mal - dans une lingua franca, qui - je me r?p?te - est parfois nomm?e Globish, ce n'est donc pas l'anglais qui, lui aussi, est tr?s riche ! A propos, connaissez-vous le livre de Bernard Cerquiglini, '*La langue anglaise n'existe pas, c'est du fran?ais mal prononc?*', Folio, 2024 ? C'est un peu provocateur, ?videmment ! D'autre part, je ne visais les locuteurs d'aucune langue en particulier, surtout pas de l'allemand que j'appr?cie beaucoup et qui, je trouve, a tellement en commun avec le sanskrit, mais peut-?tre beaucoup moins avec le fran?ais. Cela me rappelle une remarque de Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat, qui ne semblait pas beaucoup aimer lire l'allemand, ?trange ! Finalement, beaucoup d?pend du contact que nous avons eu, dans notre jeune ?ge, avec diverses langues. En ce qui me concerne, je suis s?r que l'apprentissage obligatoire du n?erlandais ? Bruxelles a initi? mon int?r?t pour les langues germaniques (scandinaves comprises) et, peut-?tre, pour le latin, le grec et le sanskrit finalement. Tr?s cordialement, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 20:47, Lyne Bansat-Boudon < Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu> a ?crit : > Cher Jean-Michel, > > Je serais au regret que vous vous sentiez offens? ! Ce n'?tait l? que jeu > d'esprit, bien s?r! > > Et je partage pleinement votre analyse de la condition qui nous est faite > et ? laquelle nous devons nous r?soudre, non sans quelques acc?s de > r?bellion, parfois, ? l'?gal, semble-t-il, de nos coll?gues germanophones. > > En ces temps de d?ferlement de d?testation (pour dire le moins), restons > sereins et joyeusement lucides! "Glissez, mortels, n'appuyez pas", vers > c?l?bre qui ne serait, du reste, ni de La Fontaine, ni de Voltaire. A qui > se fier! > > Amiti?s, > > Lyne > > Lyne Bansat-Boudon > > Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde > > Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses > > Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France > ------------------------------ > *De :* Jean Michel DELIRE > *Envoy? :* samedi 9 ao?t 2025 20:14 > *? :* Lyne Bansat-Boudon > *Cc :* Matthew Kapstein ; Indology List < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists > > Vous n?obtenez pas souvent d?e-mail ? partir de jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com. > Pourquoi c?est important > Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, > > Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque > vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. > Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, > je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le > monde comprendra). > La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par > les exp?riences - assez nombreuses *malheureusement* - d'incompr?hension > du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de > ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le > 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - > m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel > adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, > l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos > livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans > leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela > m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? > avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais > bien entendu. > > Jean Michel Delire, > > P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas > r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons > l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) > > > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear Matthew, > > I smile at your sense of humour. > > Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it > as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! > > Sa?ptapadi?nam, > > Lyne > > > > Lyne Bansat-Boudon > > Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde > > Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses > > Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France > ------------------------------ > *De :* INDOLOGY de la part de > Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > *Envoy? :* samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 > *? :* jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com > *Cc :* Indology List > *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists > > Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the > expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about > its being in French. > Matthew > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > > > wrote: > > May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's *Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage > des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes*, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which > is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at > the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the > early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why > she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. > > Best, > > Jean Michel Delire > > Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear All, > > This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India > where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number > of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient > Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is > threatened everywhere. > > A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things > that may be of interest to the list. > > Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, > established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An > annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in > Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek > Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, > workshops and seminars." > > > https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi > > There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. > > > https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ > > On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, > see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. > > > https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ > > For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination > for their Latin curriculum: > > https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp > > I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin > and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: > > https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india > > Best wishes, > > Satyanad Kichenassamy > > Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < > rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: > >> > >> Dear Raffaele, > >> > >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you > know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek > and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and > would be delighted to help. > > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" > between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical > Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost > non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of > Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus > Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very > welcome. > >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly > unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among > other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted > at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they > do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual > scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of > the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of > long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of > course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in > intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. > However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to > acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for > accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: > ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will > be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am > in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent > years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > > > Cari saluti, > > Raffaele > > > >> All my best, > >> Antonia > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < > raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it > > wrote: > >>> Dear Colleagues, > >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum > Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), > which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful > Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). > In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian > Association for Sanskrit Studies. > >>> > >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the > Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin > (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and > Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, > with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) > and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit > Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian > Universities). > >>> > >>> Warmest wishes, > >>> Raffaele > >>> > >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > ha > scritto: > >>>> > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for > the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that > may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient > Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. > >>>> > >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here > < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; > but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent > basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount > of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between > the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek > has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. > >>>> > >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of > custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 > either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am > making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of > courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf > >. > >>>> > >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. > >>>> > >>>> All my best, > >>>> Antonia > >>>> > >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the > third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting > Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we > find in ancient India. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list > >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < > > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 > > > >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella > >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit > >>> Sapienza University of Rome > >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < > https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB > > > >>> > >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori > >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza > >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 > >>> Cinque per mille < > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > ********************************************** > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > Professor of Mathematics > Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) > and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) > Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > France > Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > ********************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 23:43:57 2025 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 17:43:57 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> Message-ID: Thank you, Nagaraj, for this clarification. It now seems that we must look for jagr? as meaning jalodara rather than as meaning "liver." There are only two Tibetan translations of the *K?lacakra-tantra* and its *Vimalaprabh?* commentary in use for the last several centuries: the Shong ston revision of the 'Bro translation, and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision. Their translation of jagr? is dmu chu, which does specifically mean ascites, the accumulation of fluid in the abdominal area, as does jalodara. Indeed, the Shong ston translation of the *Vimalaprabh?* has dmu chu (jagr?) glossed as chu'i lto ba (jalodara), which is a literal translation of jalodara, "water (chu) belly (lto ba)." The early K?lacakra master Bu ston (1290-1364) here annotated chu'i lto ba as dmu chu. The Jonang translation simply translated jalodara as dmu chu rather than as chu'i lto ba, making it a straightforward synonym of jagr?. Here are the *Vimalaprabh?* texts: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?n dmu chu skran dang gzhang 'brum nad rnams dag kyang ste chu'i lto ba la sogs pa rnams (Shong ston) dmu chu skran dang gzhang 'brum nad rnams dag kyang ste dmu chu la sogs pa rnams (Jonang) The meaning of dmu is given by the late Dr. Yeshi D?nden, former personal physician to the Dalai Lama, as: "*dmu:* protrusion of the stomach due to an accumulation of water there." (*The Ambrosia Heart Tantra*, volume 1, translated by Jhampa Kelsang, p. 104. Dharamsala: Library of Tibetan Works and Archives,1977) Likewise, the *Tibetan-English Dictionary of Tibetan Medicine and Astrolog*y defines dmu chu as: "dmu.chu Dropsy of the internal organs (Ascites), Skt. jalodara." (by Dr. Tsering Thakchoe Drungtso & Mrs. Tsering Dolma Drungtso, revised and enlarged edition, 2005) So jagr? was understood as meaning jalodara, both according to the Sanskrit *Vimalaprabh?* and its Tibetan translations by Shong ston/'Bro and by the Jonang translators. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:20?PM Nagaraj Paturi wrote: > Jalodara refers to Ascites. Ascites being one of the consequences of > Cirrhosis of Liver gives a connection between Jalodara and Liver, Yakrut. > > Jalodara is not Edema in general. It is an accumulation of fluid in > Udara, Jala + Udara. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:48?AM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> There is one important weakness with the "liver" hypothesis for jagr?. >> The *Vimalaprabh?* commentary almost certainly glosses jagr? as >> jalodara, "edema." This is not as clear in the Sarnath printed edition, >> which has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?ni. The phrase "jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n >> api" is quoted from the *K**?**lacakra-tantra*, with the commentary >> adding jalodar?d?ni. However, the two very old palm-leaf manuscripts of >> the *Vimalaprabh?* show that the reading is actually jalodar?d?n rather >> than jalodar?d?ni. Thus: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?n. These >> plural accusatives are objects of the verb hanti. The neuter jalodar?d?ni >> could be understood as adding edema to liver, etc. But the masculine >> jalodar?d?n is almost certainly glossing the masculine compound instead >> of adding something more. So it is glossing the first word of the compound, >> jagr?, as meaning jalodara. >> >> Best regards, >> >> David Reigle >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > Kulapati | Vice-Chancellor, INDICA > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewianrobertson at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 16:11:39 2025 From: matthewianrobertson at gmail.com (Matthew Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:11:39 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article help Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'm having trouble tracking down the following: Hacker, Paul (1961). "The S??khyization of the Emanation Doctrine (shown in a critical analysis of texts)", in *Wiener Zeitschrift fur die Kunde Sud- und Ostasiens un Archiv fur indische Philosophie* 5, pp.75-112. If a pdf is available to share, please reach out. Thanks and best wishes to all, Matthew -- Matthew I. Robertson, PhD (he/him/his) Department of History Murray State University Author of Puru?a: Personhood in Ancient India (OUP) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From matthewianrobertson at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 16:38:08 2025 From: matthewianrobertson at gmail.com (Matthew Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:38:08 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Article help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Always amazed at the speed and generosity of this list. Immense thanks to David Reigle and Lubomir Ondracka for their assistance! Best, Matthew On Sun, Aug 10, 2025 at 11:11?AM Matthew Robertson < matthewianrobertson at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I'm having trouble tracking down the following: > > Hacker, Paul (1961). "The S??khyization of the Emanation Doctrine (shown > in a critical analysis of texts)", in *Wiener Zeitschrift fur die Kunde > Sud- und Ostasiens un Archiv fur indische Philosophie* 5, pp.75-112. > > If a pdf is available to share, please reach out. > > Thanks and best wishes to all, > Matthew > > > -- > Matthew I. Robertson, PhD > (he/him/his) > Department of History > Murray State University > Author of Puru?a: Personhood in Ancient India > > (OUP) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 01:37:10 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 19:37:10 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP In-Reply-To: References: <82728AC4-230B-4103-AA27-5B0E622AC9C4@hcts.uni-heidelberg.de> <44965F1A-D8EC-4088-9458-4166B0ABCD68@wlu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Sam, No, as far as I know this kind of searching isn't possible in the descriptive entries. The data is just plain text files, not structured into separate fields. It's a kludge, but since the so-called titles of each file is tagged with the HTML code ... , you could do a plain text search across all entries in the directory looking for a regular expression pattern with grep like this: grep -il ".*harit?l.*" * Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 09:08, Samuel Grimes via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Following up, thank you so much to Tyler and Dominik for showing how to > make the database navigable again. I was in a panic when the wiki began to > 404. > > A question I have that I hope those who showed how to make the database > available again is: is there a way to search for words that appear in the > entry, but not the title? For example, if I want to see what colophons have > the word "bhik?un?", on the original wiki I could search the word and > all mss with the searched term in their catalog entry would populate in the > search results. I cannot figure out if this is now possible. This ( > https://catalogue.ngmcp.uni-hamburg.de/content/search/ngmcpdocument.xed) > seems the most promising place to do so, but I have not had any luck in my > attempts so far. > > Thank you again for making the database available! > Sam > > On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 4:34?AM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> confirmed! Thank you Tim! (glad there is a philologist here, and it's >> obviously not me!) >> >> On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 10:31?AM Lubin, Tim wrote: >> >>> Jonathan, No institutional lapse this time ? just delete the spurious >>> ?kindly? that was accidently added to the end of the URL! >>> >>> >>> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> INDOLOGY >>> *Reply-To: *Jonathan Silk >>> *Date: *Friday, July 18, 2025 at 5:25?PM >>> *To: *"Michaels, Prof. Dr. Axel" >>> *Cc: *INDOLOGY >>> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Axel >>> >>> Perhaps there is a message here, echoing concerns expressed on this list >>> in the last 24 hours: when I try the link you provide to the Academy, I get >>> only >>> Page not found >>> >>> The requested page could not be found. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 10:00?AM Michaels, Prof. Dr. Axel via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Just to complement Dominik?s list: >>> >>> >>> >>> There is an almost comprehensive catalogue of c. 100.000 Nepalese >>> documents photographed by the NGMPP and sustainably maintained by the >>> Heidelberg Academy of sciences and Humanities: >>> https://nepalica.hadw-bw.de/nepal/catitems/index/0?page=4. The project >>> cataloguing these data will last until October 2028. It will then have >>> covered all metadata. For more information including access to the scans, >>> see >>> https://www.hadw-bw.de/en/research/research-center/documents-history-religion-and-law-pre-modern-nepalkindly >>> or contact nepal[at]hadw-bw.de . >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Axel / Michaels >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of " >>> indology at list.indology.info" >>> *Reply to: *Dominik Wujastyk >>> *Date: *Friday, 18. July 2025 at 00:33 >>> *To: *Tyler Neill >>> *Cc: *"indology at list.indology.info" >>> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP >>> >>> >>> >>> I would like to thank Tyler Neill and Claudius Teodorescu for >>> discussions about how to save and make available the data of the NGMCP >>> Wiki. My original panic about this has subsided now, since Hamburg >>> yesterday put a simplified version of the data online again. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tyler has already explained matters clearly. In future you can consult >>> this data at either of the following sites: >>> >>> - https://www-archiv.fdm.uni-hamburg.de/ngmcp/index.html >>> - https://tylergneill.github.io/ngmcp-wiki-mirror >>> >>> This data provides descriptive information on nearly 16,000 manuscripts. >>> >>> >>> >>> A much simpler, searchable index of these *and many more *manuscripts >>> is still available at Hamburg under the titles "Online Title List" and >>> "Indic Manuscripts". I think there are 117,406 manuscripts in this index: >>> >>> - >>> https://catalogue.ngmcp.uni-hamburg.de/content/search/ngmcpdocument.xed >>> >>> And the Nepalese National Archives themselves provide a searchable >>> index. I don't know if it is based on the same data as the Hamburg "Online >>> title list", but I think that is likely. The NAK index says it has data on >>> 114,552 manuscripts: >>> >>> - http://narchives.gov.np/List.aspx >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Dominik >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History >>> >>> University of Alberta >>> >>> >>> >>> "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, >>> >>> the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge >>> >>> through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities >>> and service." >>> >>> -- Collective Agreement >>> >>> 3.01 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Prof. dr. J.A. Silk >>> >>> Professor in the study of Buddhism >>> >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> >>> Herta Mohr building 2.142 >>> >>> Witte Singel 27A >>> 2311 BG Leiden >>> >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> >>> Guest Professor, PI of ERC-Project BEST >>> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen >>> Department f?r Asienstudien, Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >>> Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1 >>> 80539 M?nchen >>> Deutschland >>> >>> >>> >>> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu >>> >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >> >> >> -- >> Prof. dr. J.A. Silk >> Professor in the study of Buddhism >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Herta Mohr building 2.142 >> Witte Singel 27A >> 2311 BG Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> Guest Professor, PI of ERC-Project BEST >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen >> Department f?r Asienstudien, Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie >> Geschwister-Scholl-Platz 1 >> 80539 M?nchen >> Deutschland >> >> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 02:53:55 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:53:55 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?25_books_banned_=28=E2=80=98forfeited?= =?utf-8?b?4oCZKSwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIG1pbmU=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is shocking, and ineffectual, for all the reasons that you so eloquently lay out! Perhaps you can console yourself that your own books are in excellent company! :-) Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 12:10, Piotr Balcerowicz via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I would like to draw the attention of those of you who also follow current > developments in India to the latest official ban on 25 books, which was > signed on 5th August, and announced on 6th August: > > > https://indianexpress.com/article/india/arundhati-roy-noorani-jk-bans-publication-25-books-kashmir-propagating-secessionism-10174625/ > > And this was my first reaction to the ban, which includes two of my > monographs: > > > https://thewire.in/government/burning-knowledge-my-book-is-among-those-banned-by-the-jammu-kashmir-administration > > This has already resulted in the actual seizure (euphemism for ?state > stealing?) of the titles in a number of book stores in Jammu and Kashmir. > > Best regards, > > Piotr Balcerowicz > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://balcerowicz.eu/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 02:59:54 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:59:54 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Just a week after National Girlfriends Day! It's hard to keep up. On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 07:15, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Did anyone mention that today is World Sanskrit Day ? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 03:15:15 2025 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 20:15:15 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af@gmail.com> <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@proton.me> <2kAkq6E5BhWniEN80biO11a7Rvuxvq_8q8DGsIYsI7Glqm2wIliuVang3_ZVnLqj6VeMHxHX65Egxm_NYAOyW9zGhdPOxTVeup1jhXZrVGY=@proton.me> Message-ID: <9827D442-F050-4ED9-907E-215F04E2506D@earthlink.net> Not to ignore the term jangiri or jilebi which refers to a sweet delicacy prepared in S.India on special occasions. > On Aug 9, 2025, at 4:43 PM, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Thank you, Nagaraj, for this clarification. It now seems that we must look for jagr? as meaning jalodara rather than as meaning "liver." There are only two Tibetan translations of the K?lacakra-tantra and its Vimalaprabh? commentary in use for the last several centuries: the Shong ston revision of the 'Bro translation, and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision. Their translation of jagr? is dmu chu, which does specifically mean ascites, the accumulation of fluid in the abdominal area, as does jalodara. Indeed, the Shong ston translation of the Vimalaprabh? has dmu chu (jagr?) glossed as chu'i lto ba (jalodara), which is a literal translation of jalodara, "water (chu) belly (lto ba)." The early K?lacakra master Bu ston (1290-1364) here annotated chu'i lto ba as dmu chu. The Jonang translation simply translated jalodara as dmu chu rather than as chu'i lto ba, making it a straightforward synonym of jagr?. Here are the Vimalaprabh? texts: > > jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?n > dmu chu skran dang gzhang 'brum nad rnams dag kyang ste chu'i lto ba la sogs pa rnams (Shong ston) > dmu chu skran dang gzhang 'brum nad rnams dag kyang ste dmu chu la sogs pa rnams (Jonang) > > The meaning of dmu is given by the late Dr. Yeshi D?nden, former personal physician to the Dalai Lama, as: > "dmu: protrusion of the stomach due to an accumulation of water there." > (The Ambrosia Heart Tantra, volume 1, translated by Jhampa Kelsang, p. 104. Dharamsala: Library of Tibetan Works and Archives,1977) > > Likewise, the Tibetan-English Dictionary of Tibetan Medicine and Astrology defines dmu chu as: > "dmu.chu Dropsy of the internal organs (Ascites), Skt. jalodara." > (by Dr. Tsering Thakchoe Drungtso & Mrs. Tsering Dolma Drungtso, revised and enlarged edition, 2005) > > So jagr? was understood as meaning jalodara, both according to the Sanskrit Vimalaprabh? and its Tibetan translations by Shong ston/'Bro and by the Jonang translators. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:20?PM Nagaraj Paturi > wrote: > Jalodara refers to Ascites. Ascites being one of the consequences of Cirrhosis of Liver gives a connection between Jalodara and Liver, Yakrut. > > Jalodara is not Edema in general. It is an accumulation of fluid in Udara, Jala + Udara. > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 1:48?AM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY > wrote: > There is one important weakness with the "liver" hypothesis for jagr?. The Vimalaprabh? commentary almost certainly glosses jagr? as jalodara, "edema." This is not as clear in the Sarnath printed edition, which has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?ni. The phrase "jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api" is quoted from the K?lacakra-tantra, with the commentary adding jalodar?d?ni. However, the two very old palm-leaf manuscripts of the Vimalaprabh? show that the reading is actually jalodar?d?n rather than jalodar?d?ni. Thus: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?n. These plural accusatives are objects of the verb hanti. The neuter jalodar?d?ni could be understood as adding edema to liver, etc. But the masculine jalodar?d?n is almost certainly glossing the masculine compound instead of adding something more. So it is glossing the first word of the compound, jagr?, as meaning jalodara. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > -- > Nagaraj Paturi > Kulapati | Vice-Chancellor, INDICA > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 03:50:47 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 21:50:47 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: There's at least one precedent that I know of for a Persian loanword in late Sanskrit and Hindi medical texts, and that is the Persian word dil "heart" in the context of Bh?vami?ra's *Bh?vaprak??a* (16 cent), where it appears as *tila*, cited alongside the well-known Ayurvedic Man image in the Wellcome Library , see my discussion in DOI: https://doi.org/10.1163/157342109X423793 pages 237-238, and note the same word (*dila*) occurring in a 1903 printed book by Mural?dhara?arman. It is likely that such loan examples could be multiplied especially in late ?yurvedic works. Also, for *dil*, see, e.g., Mah?devadeva's *Hikmatprak??a* (tr. and study by Meulenbeld, https://indianmedicine.nl/article/view/24744 and https://indianmedicine.nl/article/view/24745), vol.2, pp. 157--158 et passim (and h?daya/h?d in other passages). (Mah?devadeva doesn't seem to use jigar/jagr? for liver, always yak?t). DSAL #10394 has already been mentioned, which is characteristically rich but doesn't clear causal relations up much. Mayrhofer's EWA, also mentioned, vol. 2, p. 391, discusses the form as *yakar*, which does look much more like /jagar/ etc. and calls the forms Indo-Iranian. In KEWA, 3, 1, "yak?t" he had already noted the similarity with Iranian forms, as well as the difficulty in making real connections with such forms. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 09:08, Andrea Lorene Gutierrez via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > We even see this Persian-Urdu jigar come into modern Tamil in the sherbet > type drink of Tamil Nadu, jigarthanda, which cools the heart/stomach/core, > in its popular understanding. > > Dr. Andrea Guti?rrez > Assistant Professor of Instruction > Department of Asian Studies > The University of Texas at Austin > > https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/asianstudies/faculty/alg3485 > https://utexas.academia.edu/AndreaLoreneGutierrez > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:15?AM Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Did anyone mention that today is World Sanskrit Day ? >> >> Le 09/08/2025 ? 03:26, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY a ?crit : >> > Thanks Hans. That is a very good suggestion. >> > >> > Madhav >> > >> > Madhav M. Deshpande >> > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, >> India >> > >> > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:30?PM Hock, Hans Henrich > > >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Interesting evidence, esp. the Jaina Prakrit one. Could jagri and >> jigar(u) >> >> be variant vernacularizations of Skt. yak.rt, plus additional Prakritic >> >> changes (e.g. a > i after palatal, comparable to madhyama > majjihima? >> >> >> >> Hans Henrich >> >> >> >> On Aug 8, 2025, at 14:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < >> >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> >> >> ? >> >> >> >> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of them all, in >> the >> >> very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the question of what >> >> is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. >> >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Aleksandar >> >> >> >> Aleksandar Uskokov >> >> >> >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >> >> >> >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale >> >> University >> >> >> >> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu >> >> >> >> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" >> >> >> >> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ >> >> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spp2MW0kH$ >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >> >> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spl0GFnt_$ >> > >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> >> Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY >> >> *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM >> >> *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; Indology < >> >> indology at list.indology.info> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude >> >> >> >> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the following textual >> >> references: >> >> >> >> 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts >> >> >> >> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as part of >> the *"Raktavaha >> >> Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). >> >> Key References: >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( >> >> *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). >> >> - >> >> >> >> *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. >> >> - >> >> >> >> Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical position. >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). >> >> - >> >> >> >> Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context of digestion. >> >> >> >> Example Verse (Charaka): >> >> >> >> *"????????????????? ??????..."* >> >> *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* >> >> ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts >> >> >> >> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and metaphorical >> contexts. >> >> Key References: >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as part of strict >> >> dietary rules). >> >> - >> >> >> >> Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in anatomical >> >> discussions. >> >> - >> >> >> >> Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of bodily >> suffering. >> >> >> >> Example Passage: >> >> >> >> *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* >> >> *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* >> >> ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? >> >> >> >> Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). >> >> Key References: >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by karma. >> >> - >> >> >> >> S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" >> (*jigara-a??hi*). >> >> - >> >> >> >> Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). >> >> >> >> Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): >> >> >> >> *"????-?????-???????..."* >> >> *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* >> >> ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts >> >> >> >> The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late Prakrit/Apabhra??a. >> >> Key References: >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* (liver >> disease). >> >> - >> >> >> >> Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) >> >> - >> >> >> >> Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. >> >> >> >> Example Line: >> >> >> >> *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") >> >> ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Evolution Summary: >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> >> Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* >> >> 2. >> >> >> >> Pali: *Yakana (???)* >> >> 3. >> >> >> >> Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* >> >> 4. >> >> >> >> Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* >> >> 5. >> >> >> >> Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* >> >> 6. >> >> >> >> Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* >> >> >> >> These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru *from ancient >> >> Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la also lists >> it. >> >> Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word *jigar/jigaru >> *goes >> >> back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would still >> consider it >> >> a borrowing from Persian. >> >> >> >> Madhav M. Deshpandee >> >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, >> India >> >> >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Rolf, >> >> >> >> I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the >> information >> >> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian >> *jigar >> >> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am reluctant to think >> *jagr? >> >> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain >> >> the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume that somehow >> >> the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That requires too many >> ad >> >> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the >> *y *of >> >> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely pronounced as >> *r? >> >> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common >> >> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see >> more of >> >> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and your *jagr?*, >> >> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. >> >> >> >> Madhav >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, >> India >> >> >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < >> >> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Madhav, >> >> >> >> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as >> you >> >> did with Claude.ai. >> >> >> >> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): >> >> >> >> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a >> well-established >> >> history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European language >> >> family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: >> >> - >> >> >> >> The *anatomical liver*, and >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, and *deep >> >> emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Middle Persian*: >> >> - >> >> >> >> The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * jekar*. >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Old Persian*: >> >> - >> >> >> >> The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based >> on >> >> related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots* >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Avestan* (East Iranian): >> >> - >> >> >> >> *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Proto-Iranian*: >> >> - >> >> >> >> Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier >> >> Indo-Iranian form. >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Proto-Indo-Iranian*: >> >> - >> >> >> >> Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = liver) >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: >> >> - >> >> >> >> **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and it gives >> rise >> >> to many cognates across Indo-European languages. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* >> >> Language Word for "liver" Notes >> >> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match >> >> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate >> >> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) >> >> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate (likely >> non-IE >> >> origin) >> >> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by >> >> metaphorical use ("life-organ") >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * highly >> >> metaphorical*: >> >> - >> >> >> >> *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave >> >> - >> >> >> >> *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved person >> >> - >> >> >> >> *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief >> >> >> >> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in >> >> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the >> >> seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> ? Summary: >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> *Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from >> *Proto-Indo-European >> >> *i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. >> >> - >> >> >> >> It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan >> >> *yakar?*. >> >> - >> >> >> >> The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures >> >> (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not >> >> etymological. >> >> >> >> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across >> Indo-European >> >> languages? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: >> >> >> >> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c >> >> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spllBBM6k$ >> > >> >> >> >> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word >> >> taker for liver. >> >> >> >> Madhav Deshpande >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps:// >> list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com >> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com/__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spnf2lNt0$ >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> >> >> >> >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list >> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> -- >> ********************************************** >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >> Professor of Mathematics >> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) >> and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >> France >> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >> ********************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Mon Aug 11 05:42:57 2025 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 05:42:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Save the Date - Wednesday 3 September Message-ID: IASS Research Symposium 'The World in Turmoil: Solutions from the Bhagavadg?t??' The Interational Association of Sanskrit Studies is pleased to announce that the first Online Research Symposium will be held on Wednesday 3 September. Three leading scholars will engage with the Bhagavadg?t? and its relevance from multiple perspectives: Simon Brodbeck, Professor of Religious Studies at Cardiff University, UK Richard H. Davis, Research Professor in the Interdisciplinary Study of Religion Program at Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, NY Gauri Mahulikar, Academic Director, Chinmaya International Foundation, Adi Sankara Nilayam, Kerala; Professor and HoD, Sanskrit Department, Mumbai University (retired) With an introduction and welcome by Professor Dipti Tripathi, President, IASS The Symposium will be chaird by Amruta Natu, Assistant Curator, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute and Paolo Visigalli, Associate Professor in South Asian Studies and World History, Shanghai Normal University Time: 6:00am PDT, 9:00am EDT, 1:00pm GMT, 6:30pm IST, 9:00pm CST, 11:00pm AEST (or check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/) Zoom: link will be posted before the symposium. Inquiries: pvisigalli83 at gmail.com [cid:85924939-1beb-4d4d-9101-f58e3a3cb827] McComas Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit School of Culture, History and Language College of Asia and Pacific, Australian National University Secretary-General, International Assoc. of Sanskrit Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 31432 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From agnes.korn at cnrs.fr Mon Aug 11 12:40:30 2025 From: agnes.korn at cnrs.fr (Agnes Korn) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 14:40:30 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: <08fefb4a-ef07-4b9c-80e8-55f5eb7cfd36@cnrs.fr> Dear all, Le 11/08/2025 ? 05:50, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > There's at least one precedent that I know of for a Persian loanword > in late Sanskrit and Hindi medical texts, and that is the Persian word > dil "heart" in the context of Bh?vami?ra's /Bh?vaprak??a/ (16 cent), > where it appears as /tila/, cited alongside? the well-known Ayurvedic > Man image in the Wellcome Library > , > see my discussion in?DOI: > https://doi.org/10.1163/157342109X423793?pages 237-238, and note the > same word (/dila/) occurring?in a 1903 printed book by > Mural?dhara?arman.? It is likely that such loan examples could be > multiplied especially in late ?yurvedic works.? Also, for /dil/, see, > e.g., Mah?devadeva's /Hikmatprak??a/ (tr. and study by Meulenbeld, > https://indianmedicine.nl/article/view/24744 and > https://indianmedicine.nl/article/view/24745), vol.2, pp. 157--158 et > passim (and h?daya/h?d in other passages).? (Mah?devadeva?doesn't seem > to use jigar/jagr? for liver, always yak?t). > > DSAL #10394 > ?has > already been mentioned, which is characteristically rich but doesn't > clear causal relations up much.? Mayrhofer's?EWA, also mentioned, vol. > 2, p. 391, discusses the form as /yakar/, which?does look much more > like /jagar/ etc. and calls the forms Indo-Iranian.? ?In KEWA, 3, 1, > "yak?t" he had already noted the similarity with Iranian forms, as > well as the difficulty in making real connections with such forms. What Mayrhofer says in KEWA III (https://archive.org/details/mayrhofer-dicts/KEWA-Bd3-%28Ya-Ha%291964/page/1/mode/2up?view=theater) p. 1 is that certain forms (mentioned in some etym. dict.s) *other* than Persian jigar, Pashto yi/?na, Greek h?par, Latin iecur, iecinoris, Lith. (j)jeknos etc. do not exactly correspond in terms of historical phonology. (One would need to check those other dict.s to see which forms are thus qualified as not securely related.) Mayrhofer does *not* say that the connection to the Iranian forms is questionable or problematic, quite to the contrary. The -t of yakr.t is clearly specific to IA; all other IE languages show or reflect a stem in -r/-n-. In Old Iranian, only Avestan /y?kar/ is attested (https://cab.geschkult.fu-berlin.de/exist/apps/cab/pages/tools/aiw.html?id=%E2%80%A25311-1282-6=321), a hapax in a late text. Taken together, the Ir. cognates show the stem yakar/-n- rather nicely. Particularly nice -- and somewhat parallel to Latin -- is Khotanese gyagarr? < *yakr.na-. Very interesting about the use off dil 'heart' in the texts cited above. Best, Agnes > > Best, > Dominik > > -- > Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History > University of Alberta > > "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, > the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge > through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities > and service." > -- Collective Agreement > > 3.01 > > > > On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 at 09:08, Andrea Lorene Gutierrez via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > We even see this Persian-Urdu jigar come into modern Tamil in the > sherbet type drink of Tamil Nadu, jigarthanda, which cools the > heart/stomach/core, in its popular understanding. > > Dr. Andrea Guti?rrez > Assistant Professor of Instruction > Department of Asian Studies > The University of Texas at Austin > > https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/asianstudies/faculty/alg3485 > https://utexas.academia.edu/AndreaLoreneGutierrez > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:15?AM Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > Did anyone mention that today is World Sanskrit Day ? > > Le 09/08/2025 ? 03:26, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > > Thanks Hans. That is a very good suggestion. > > > > Madhav > > > > Madhav M. Deshpande > > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, > Bangalore, India > > > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 12:30?PM Hock, Hans Henrich > > > wrote: > > > >> Interesting evidence, esp. the Jaina Prakrit one. Could > jagri and jigar(u) > >> be variant vernacularizations of Skt. yak.rt, plus > additional Prakritic > >> changes (e.g. a > i after palatal, comparable to madhyama > > majjihima? > >> > >> Hans Henrich > >> > >> On Aug 8, 2025, at 14:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < > >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> > >> ? > >> > >> Curiously skipping arguably the most famous reference of > them all, in the > >> very opening of the *B?had-?ra?yaka, *which raises the > question of what > >> is often sheer randomness of how ai engines operate. > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> Aleksandar > >> > >> Aleksandar Uskokov > >> > >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > >> > >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious > Studies, Yale > >> University > >> > >> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > >> > >> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction" > >> > >> https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/ > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > >> > > >> ------------------------------ > >> *From:* INDOLOGY on > behalf of > >> Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > >> *Sent:* Friday, August 8, 2025 2:58 PM > >> *To:* Rolf Heinrich Koch ; > Indology < > >> indology at list.indology.info> > >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Claude > >> > >> For whatever it's worth, the DeepSeek AI provided the > following textual > >> references: > >> > >> 1. Sanskrit (????? / Yak?t) ? Ayurvedic Texts > >> > >> The liver is extensively discussed in classical Ayurveda as > part of the *"Raktavaha > >> Srotas"* (blood-carrying channels). > >> Key References: > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?Charaka Samhita (?????????, ~300 BCE?200 CE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? *Chikits?sth?na 15/16* ? Discusses liver disorders ( > >>? ? ? ? *yak?d-dalyudara*, enlarged liver). > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ? ? *S?trasth?na 28* ? Lists *yak?t* among major organs. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?Sushruta Samhita (?????????????, ~4th century CE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? *Shar?rasth?na 4* ? Describes the liver?s anatomical > position. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ? ? *Nid?nasth?na 7* ? Diagnoses liver diseases > (*yak?t-pl?hodara*). > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?Ashtanga Hridaya (????????????, 6th century CE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? *S?trasth?na 12* ? Mentions *yak?t* in the context > of digestion. > >> > >> Example Verse (Charaka): > >> > >> *"????????????????? ??????..."* > >> *("Disorders of the liver, spleen, and abdomen...")* > >> ? *Charaka Samhita, Chikits?sth?na 15* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> 2. Pali (??? / Yakana) ? Buddhist Texts > >> > >> The Pali Canon refers to the liver in medical and > metaphorical contexts. > >> Key References: > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?Vinaya Pi?aka (????????, Mah?vagga VI.14.6) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Prohibits monks from consuming animal livers (as > part of strict > >>? ? ? ? dietary rules). > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?Milindapa?ha (???????????, ~1st century BCE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Compares the liver to a "storehouse of blood" in > anatomical > >>? ? ? ? discussions. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?Pali J?taka Tales (e.g., J?taka 319) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Metaphorically uses *"yakana"* in descriptions of > bodily suffering. > >> > >> Example Passage: > >> > >> *"Yakana? hadaya? kilomaka? antogata?..."* > >> *("The liver, heart, and kidneys are inside...")* > >> ? *Vinaya Pi?aka commentary* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> 3. Jain Prakrit (???? / Jigara) ? Ardham?gadh? & ?aurasen? > >> > >> Jain texts in Prakrit use *"jigara"* (from Sanskrit *yak?t*). > >> Key References: > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?Uttar?dhyayana S?tra (??????????? ?????, 5th?3rd century BCE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Verse 36.75: Lists *jigara* among organs affected by > karma. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?S?trak?t??ga (???????????? 1.6.27) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Forbids harming creatures "from liver to bones" > (*jigara-a??hi*). > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?Paiyalacchi (????????, 10th-century Prakrit lexicon) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Defines: *"Jigara = Yak?t"* (?????). > >> > >> Example Verse (S?trak?t??ga): > >> > >> *"????-?????-???????..."* > >> *("From liver to bones and marrow...")* > >> ? *S?trak?t??ga 1.6.27* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> 4. Apabhra??a (????? / Jigaru) ? Medieval Jain & Medical Texts > >> > >> The transitional form *"jigaru"* appears in late > Prakrit/Apabhra??a. > >> Key References: > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?Bhavisayatta Kaha (???????? ???, 8th?10th century CE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? A Jain story describing a king?s *"jigaru-roga"* > (liver disease). > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?Ravidatta?s Medical Works (???????, ~9th century CE) > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Uses *jigaru* in prescriptions for liver ailments. > >> > >> Example Line: > >> > >> *"????? ??????"* ("Liver pain") > >> ? *Bhavisayatta Kaha* > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> Evolution Summary: > >> > >>? ? ?1. > >> > >>? ? ?Vedic Sanskrit: *Yak?t (?????)* > >>? ? ?2. > >> > >>? ? ?Pali: *Yakana (???)* > >>? ? ?3. > >> > >>? ? ?Early Prakrit: *Yakai (???)* > >>? ? ?4. > >> > >>? ? ?Later Prakrit (Jain): *Jigara (????)* > >>? ? ?5. > >> > >>? ? ?Apabhra??a: *Jigaru (?????)* > >>? ? ?6. > >> > >>? ? ?Modern Hindi/Urdu: *Jigar (????)* > >> > >> These references contain the use of *jigara *or *jigaru > *from ancient > >> Jain Prakrit texts and Apabhra??a texts. The De??n?mam?la > also lists it. > >> Assuming these textual references are accurate, the word > *jigar/jigaru *goes > >> back to Prakrit/Apabhra??a ancestry. I wonder if we would > still consider it > >> a borrowing from Persian. > >> > >> Madhav M. Deshpandee > >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, > Bangalore, India > >> > >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:46?AM Madhav Deshpande > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Rolf, > >> > >>? ? ? ?I am not an expert in all these languages. But from > the information > >> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the > Persian *jigar > >> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr?t*. The reason I am > reluctant to think *jagr? > >> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does > not explain > >> the *? *at the end of *jagr?*, and then we have to assume > that somehow > >> the * i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagr?*. That > requires too many ad > >> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA > languages, the *y *of > >> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r? *is routinely > pronounced as *r? > >> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a > common > >> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these > considerations, I see more of > >> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr?t* and > your *jagr?*, > >> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking. > >> > >> Madhav > >> Madhav M. Deshpande > >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, > Bangalore, India > >> > >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57?AM Rolf Heinrich Koch < > >> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Madhav, > >> > >> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly > the same as you > >> did with Claude.ai. > >> > >> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand): > >> > >> The Persian word *jigar* (???), meaning *?liver?*, has a > well-established > >> history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the > *Indo-European language > >> family*. Here?s the full etymological breakdown: > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 1. *Persian jigar (???) ? meaning: liver* > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? The *anatomical liver*, and > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ? ? *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, * passion*, > and *deep > >>? ? ? ? emotion* ? much like how ?heart? is used in English. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian* > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?*Middle Persian*: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or * > jekar*. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?*Old Persian*: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? The word is not directly attested, but is > *reconstructed* based on > >>? ? ? ? related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European > (PIE) roots* > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?*Avestan* (East Iranian): > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? *yakar?* (liver) ? a clear cognate. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?*Proto-Iranian*: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an > earlier > >>? ? ? ? Indo-Iranian form. > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?*Proto-Indo-Iranian*: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? Reconstructed as *y?k?t* (same as Sanskrit *yak?t* = > liver) > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ?*Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? **i?k?w??* ? This is the PIE word for *?liver?*, and > it gives rise > >>? ? ? ? to many cognates across Indo-European languages. > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages* > >> Language Word for "liver" Notes > >> *Sanskrit* *yak?t* (?????) Exact Indo-Aryan match > >> *Avestan* *yakar?* East Iranian cognate > >> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes) > >> *Ancient Greek* *h?par* (????) Different root, not cognate > (likely non-IE > >> origin) > >> *Old English* *lifere* ? *liver* Possibly unrelated, or > influenced by > >> metaphorical use ("life-organ") > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? 5. *Semantic development in Persian* > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became * > highly > >>? ? ?metaphorical*: > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ? ? *jigar-dil* = ?liver-hearted? ? brave > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ? ? *jigar-p?ra* (lit. ?a piece of liver?) = a beloved > person > >>? ? ? ? - > >> > >>? ? ? ? *jigar khun hona* (?liver bleeding?) = intense grief > >> > >> This is *cultural* ? just as the *heart* became the seat of > emotion in > >> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate > culture as the > >> seat of * strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*. > >> ------------------------------ > >> ? Summary: > >> > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?*Jigar (???)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, > descending from *Proto-Indo-European > >>? ? ?*i?k?w??* via *Indo-Iranian *yak?t*. > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?It is *cognate with Sanskrit yak?t*, Latin *iecur*, and > Avestan > >>? ? ?*yakar?*. > >>? ? ?- > >> > >>? ? ?The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate > cultures > >>? ? ?(courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural > development*, not > >>? ? ?etymological. > >> > >> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across > Indo-European > >> languages? > >> > >> > >> > >> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY: > >> > >> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c > >> > > >> > >> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to > Sanskrit word > >> taker for liver. > >> > >> Madhav Deshpande > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing > listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > >> > >> -- > >> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > > > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> > >> > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology__;!!DZ3fjg!7empG3RZB65PWHDWZivLaKrN86ZLoEMwKy9oIFuSdPC7-Wi-CY4O5u-3jVndiUib2RgecbhnxRofluIewH3spug9qFoj$ > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > ********************************************** > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > Professor of Mathematics > Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims? (CNRS, UMR9008) > ? ? ?and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) > Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > France > Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > ********************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Agnes Korn, PhD habil. CNRS ; UMR 8041 Centre de recherche sur le monde iranien (CeRMI) 7 rue Guy M?quet 94800 Villejuif France agnes.korn at cnrs.fr https://cermi.cnrs.fr/membres/korn-agnes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Kathleen.Longwaters at sjc.edu Mon Aug 11 15:17:10 2025 From: Kathleen.Longwaters at sjc.edu (Longwaters, Kathleen) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 15:17:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: Dear Antonia, Thank you for drawing attention to your Greek class. This has been a fascinating discussion. At St. John's all of our undergraduates learn ancient Greek, and a good number go on to take the M.A. in Eastern Classics where they learn Sanskrit, so are learning these languages in the more traditional order. I, though, did learn Sanskrit before learning Greek and found it helpful in some respects to have that perspective, for example with internal phonetic changes. (We use Luschnig coupled with original texts for the Greek). Antonia, I look forward to seeing what you draw attention to. Jean, thank you for mention of Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, and Matthew for the link. I have had solid German since my undergraduate days and Latin from my childhood, but (embarrassingly) I am just learning French now as my sabbatical project. Reading this will be a goal. Cheers, Kathleen Kathleen Longwaters Tutor St. John?s College 1160 Camino Cruz Blanca Santa Fe, NM 87505 Kathleen.Longwaters at sjc.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2025 1:37 PM To: Lyne Bansat-Boudon Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists ?????CAUTION: External Email.a0dfa0cc5d0339e1 Ch?re Lyne, Je ne me sens nullement offens?, seulement triste ? l'id?e que nous ne puissions utiliser nos propres langues, qui sont toutes si riches, au lieu de nous exprimer - mal - dans une lingua franca, qui - je me r?p?te - est parfois nomm?e Globish, ce n'est donc pas l'anglais qui, lui aussi, est tr?s riche ! A propos, connaissez-vous le livre de Bernard Cerquiglini, 'La langue anglaise n'existe pas, c'est du fran?ais mal prononc?', Folio, 2024 ? C'est un peu provocateur, ?videmment ! D'autre part, je ne visais les locuteurs d'aucune langue en particulier, surtout pas de l'allemand que j'appr?cie beaucoup et qui, je trouve, a tellement en commun avec le sanskrit, mais peut-?tre beaucoup moins avec le fran?ais. Cela me rappelle une remarque de Pierre-Sylvain Filliozat, qui ne semblait pas beaucoup aimer lire l'allemand, ?trange ! Finalement, beaucoup d?pend du contact que nous avons eu, dans notre jeune ?ge, avec diverses langues. En ce qui me concerne, je suis s?r que l'apprentissage obligatoire du n?erlandais ? Bruxelles a initi? mon int?r?t pour les langues germaniques (scandinaves comprises) et, peut-?tre, pour le latin, le grec et le sanskrit finalement. Tr?s cordialement, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 20:47, Lyne Bansat-Boudon > a ?crit : Cher Jean-Michel, Je serais au regret que vous vous sentiez offens? ! Ce n'?tait l? que jeu d'esprit, bien s?r! Et je partage pleinement votre analyse de la condition qui nous est faite et ? laquelle nous devons nous r?soudre, non sans quelques acc?s de r?bellion, parfois, ? l'?gal, semble-t-il, de nos coll?gues germanophones. En ces temps de d?ferlement de d?testation (pour dire le moins), restons sereins et joyeusement lucides! "Glissez, mortels, n'appuyez pas", vers c?l?bre qui ne serait, du reste, ni de La Fontaine, ni de Voltaire. A qui se fier! Amiti?s, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : Jean Michel DELIRE > Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 20:14 ? : Lyne Bansat-Boudon > Cc : Matthew Kapstein >; Indology List > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Vous n?obtenez pas souvent d?e-mail ? partir de jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com. Pourquoi c?est important Ch?re Lyne, cher Matthew, Je m'adresse ? vous en fran?ais, que vous comprenez apparemment puisque vous r?agissez au mot 'unhappily' comme signifiant 'malheureusement'. Peut-?tre 'unfortunately' conviendrait-il mieux, mais en bon francophone, je ne saisis pas la nuance... Tout cela, bien s?r, cum grano salis (tout le monde comprendra). La raison pour laquelle j'ai cru bon d'ajouter cet adjectif s'explique par les exp?riences - assez nombreuses malheureusement - d'incompr?hension du fran?ais par nos coll?gues, alors que nous sommes tous contraints de ma?triser l'anglais ou, ? tout le moins, ce qu'un ami linguiste nomme le 'globish'. La prochaine fois, faites-moi confiance, je ne chercherai plus - m?me ironiquement - ? excuser l'utilisation du fran?ais par un tel adjectif. Tant pis, continuons ? ?crire en fran?ais et advienne que pourra, l'I.A. nous sauvera ! Cependant, nous courrons toujours le risque que nos livres ne soient pas vraiment lus ou, pire, qu'ils ne soient pas cit?s dans leurs livres par de pr?tendus sp?cialistes dans notre domaine, comme cela m'est arriv?. Et, horreur, le 'sp?cialiste' en question avait communiqu? avec moi, quelques ann?es plus t?t, pour me demander conseil... en anglais bien entendu. Jean Michel Delire, P.S. Je m'attends ? ce que 'la liste' me r?primande pour n'avoir pas r?dig? ce texte en anglais (LOL), mais heureusement, aujourd'hui nous avons l'I.A. pour une traduction automatique (LLOOLL) Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 18:42, Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear Matthew, I smile at your sense of humour. Likewise, I was about to point out the unfortunate use of the adverb "unhappily", unless we take it as a "second degree" (or, more idiomatic perhaps: "with a pinch of salt"?)! Sa?ptapadi?nam, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY > de la part de Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Envoy? : samedi 9 ao?t 2025 18:01 ? : jeanmicheldelire at gmail.com > Cc : Indology List > Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing unfortunate about its being in French. Matthew On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY > wrote: May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes, Peeters, Louvain, 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. Best, Jean Michel Delire Le sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ? 12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : Dear All, This announcement made me curious about the number of places in India where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with the number of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or ancient Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is threatened everywhere. A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few things that may be of interest to the list. Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, " An annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by the Greek Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, workshops and seminars." https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek studies, see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance examination for their Latin curriculum: https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely teach Latin and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india Best wishes, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >> >> Dear Raffaele, >> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote the study of the classical Western languages in Indian Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of course, very welcome. >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on the grounds of the Accademia)? > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in intensive courses or in the many international conferences they organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? > > Cari saluti, > Raffaele > >> All my best, >> Antonia >> >> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it >> wrote: >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np>), which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj>). In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major Indian Universities). >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> Raffaele >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >> ha scritto: >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can watch here < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA>; but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, and the main difference between the two languages (the rather more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what we will be discussing in detail. >>>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can find all information on this sequence of courses at https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf>. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>>> >>>> All my best, >>>> Antonia >>>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >>>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella < https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB> >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> Cinque per mille < https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 17:54:36 2025 From: piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com (Piotr Balcerowicz) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 19:54:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Call For Papers: The Art of South Asia Message-ID: Dear List Members, Please kindly circulate this message also among your colleagues who may be interested. We invite articles of experts of South Asia, art historians, Indologists, scholars of religion and culture as well as representatives from associated fields of study that engage with the *Art of South Asia* ? from Antiquity to modern times ? in interconnected areas of broadly understood art, such as fine arts, iconography, architecture, literature on art and artistic treatises, visual arts, traditional dance and theatre, connections of art with religion and with intellectual culture, influences of South Asian art on, and its relationship to other regions, e.g. Central Asia, South-East Asia etc. The articles will be published in a special issue of *The Artistic Traditions of Non-European Cultures* (ISSN: 2450-5692, http://artistic-tradition-of-non-european-culture.world-art.pl/), a journal devoted to study of non-European art and artistic culture and its artistic relationships with art of Europe. It is prepared and published by the Polish Institute of World Art Studies (http://www.world-art.pl/), which in 2025 celebrates the 25th a?nniversary of its foundation. The Institute has published 15 monographs devoted to the art of India as well as South and South-East Asia. These include eight monographs and collective volumes, together with materials from conferences organised by the Institute in its periodicals and publication series. All manuscripts will be peer-reviewed. Manuscripts may contain colour or black-and-white plates. ? Article submission deadline: 31 May 2026 ? Peer review notification: within two months after submission ? Volume Publication: end of 2026 The contributions should be sent to the addresses: biuro at world-art.pl, piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com Please see the attachment for further details and for Author guidelines. *The editors * Prof.?Dr. *Jerzy Malinowski* (President of the Polish Institute of World Art Studies) http://www.world-art.pl/ Prof.?Dr. *Piotr Balcerowicz* (the University of Warsaw), http://balcerowicz.eu/, https://indologia.uw.edu.pl/o-katedrze/kadra/piotr-balcerowicz/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Call for papers - Art of South Asia.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 133058 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tyler.g.neill at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 02:25:07 2025 From: tyler.g.neill at gmail.com (Tyler Neill) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 22:25:07 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?missing_pages_in_PDF_of_1978_=C5=9Alokav?= =?utf-8?q?=C4=81rttika?= Message-ID: Hi list members, I'm working with this PDF on Archive of Kum?rila's ?lokav?rttika, as published in 1978 by Dv?rik?d?sa ??str? with the Ny?yaratn?kara commentary by P?rthas?rathi Mi?ra. The text portion is missing a few pages I'd like to track down: 231, 380, 444, 445, 494, 606. Would anyone happen to have a different PDF of this same 1978 edition which has the six pages in question? Or a hard copy they'd be willing to take six photographs of? Many thanks in advance. Kind regards, Tyler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 02:55:27 2025 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2025 22:55:27 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?the_medical_term_jagr=C4=AB=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 16:35:11 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 19:35:11 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?missing_pages_in_PDF_of_1978_=C5=9Alokav?= =?utf-8?q?=C4=81rttika?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78EC0E9A-7476-49FE-B0D1-6506A9D8A091@gmail.com> Dear Tyler, there is another edition of the ?lokav?rttika in archive.org : https://archive.org/details/Mimansa_Sloka_Vartikam_of_Kumarila_Bhattapada1898/mode/2up Best wishes, Asko > On 12. Aug 2025, at 5.25, Tyler Neill via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Hi list members, > > I'm working with this PDF on Archive of Kum?rila's ?lokav?rttika, as published in 1978 by Dv?rik?d?sa ??str? with the Ny?yaratn?kara commentary by P?rthas?rathi Mi?ra. The text portion is missing a few pages I'd like to track down: 231, 380, 444, 445, 494, 606. > > Would anyone happen to have a different PDF of this same 1978 edition which has the six pages in question? Or a hard copy they'd be willing to take six photographs of? Many thanks in advance. > > Kind regards, > Tyler > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyler.g.neill at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 00:21:35 2025 From: tyler.g.neill at gmail.com (Tyler Neill) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 20:21:35 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?missing_pages_in_PDF_of_1978_=C5=9Alokav?= =?utf-8?q?=C4=81rttika?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kind thanks to Madhav Deshpande for supplying photos of the missing pages from his hard copy. I'll try to create an improved PDF and upload it for others, as well. -Tyler On Mon, Aug 11, 2025 at 10:25?PM Tyler Neill wrote: > Hi list members, > > I'm working with this PDF on Archive > of > Kum?rila's ?lokav?rttika, as published in 1978 by Dv?rik?d?sa ??str? with > the Ny?yaratn?kara commentary by P?rthas?rathi Mi?ra. The text portion is > missing a few pages I'd like to track down: 231, 380, 444, 445, 494, 606. > > Would anyone happen to have a different PDF of this same 1978 edition > which has the six pages in question? Or a hard copy they'd be willing to > take six photographs of? Many thanks in advance. > > Kind regards, > Tyler > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 01:51:29 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 19:51:29 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Claude In-Reply-To: <08fefb4a-ef07-4b9c-80e8-55f5eb7cfd36@cnrs.fr> References: <07FE5E13-BBAF-4944-AF9E-1827449DE587@illinois.edu> <7bd17e84-ed43-4646-a408-7c3520ab4fa0@univ-reims.fr> <08fefb4a-ef07-4b9c-80e8-55f5eb7cfd36@cnrs.fr> Message-ID: Thank you very much for the important corrections, Agnes! Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyler.g.neill at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 03:24:24 2025 From: tyler.g.neill at gmail.com (Tyler Neill) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 23:24:24 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Sam! Great idea. I respectfully approached today's Kalpataru (Gemini CLI) and made your wish. Fast forward a few hours... And voil?! The mirror at https://tylergneill.github.io/ngmcp-wiki-mirror now has a link to a search.html . There, you can enter search terms in whatever transliteration scheme you like and browse through results. It's not grammar-aware. Let me know whether it works, if you'd prefer another format, etc. For those so inclined, you can also download the collection of files from GitHub and search the HTML files using regular expressions etc. Kind wishes, Tyler On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:03?AM wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Samuel Grimes > To: Jonathan Silk > Cc: "Lubin, Tim" , INDOLOGY > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 11:10:25 -0400 > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP > Following up, thank you so much to Tyler and Dominik for showing how to > make the database navigable again. I was in a panic when the wiki began to > 404. > > A question I have that I hope those who showed how to make the database > available again is: is there a way to search for words that appear in the > entry, but not the title? For example, if I want to see what colophons have > the word "bhik?un?", on the original wiki I could search the word and > all mss with the searched term in their catalog entry would populate in the > search results. I cannot figure out if this is now possible. This ( > https://catalogue.ngmcp.uni-hamburg.de/content/search/ngmcpdocument.xed) > seems the most promising place to do so, but I have not had any luck in my > attempts so far. > > Thank you again for making the database available! > Sam > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natalija.burisina at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 08:36:52 2025 From: natalija.burisina at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Nat=C4=81lija_Buri=C5=A1ina?=) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 11:36:52 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] -Atharvaveda 4vols In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Narayan, I would be interested in obtaining this set. I reside in Latvia, Europe. Would you kindly let me know the shipping costs to Latvia. Ar cie?u Met vriendelijke groet, Best regards, Nat?lija Buri?ina On Thu, 7 Aug 2025 at 15:03, wrote: > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: the medical term jagr?? (Rolf Heinrich Koch) > 2. Re: the medical term jagr?? (Matthew Kapstein) > 3. JPTS upload in Heidelberg (Kie Pue) > 4. Fwd: INDOLOGY list--Atharvaveda 4vols (Dominik Wujastyk) > 5. Re: the medical term jagr?? (David and Nancy Reigle) > 6. Rayamukuta's Padacandrik?, ed. Kali Kumar Datta, vol. 3 > (Arlo Griffiths) > 7. Re: the medical term jagr?? (Matthew Kapstein) > 8. University of Vienna: Job announcement University Assistant > Predoc (Nina Mirnig) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 14:46:04 +0200 > From: Rolf Heinrich Koch > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the medical term jagr?? > Message-ID: <52d52046-7128-4ada-9330-f777d7cdf3af at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" > > I connect jagr? with the kitul palm sugar (kitul juggery). It is used in > Ayurveda. And I eat it always for my tea. > > Heiner > > Am 06.08.2025 um 05:55 schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY: > > I have not been able to find the medical term "jagr?"?in any source > > available to me. It occurs in verse 2.111c of the /K?lacakra-tantra/ > > (so in all manuscripts). It is in the phrase: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api > > ja?hara-gat?n. So it refers to either an organ or a disease found in > > the stomach area, along with pl?ha (i.e., pl?han, spleen) and ar?a > > (for ar?as, hemorrhoids). I am seeking a source for it in any Sanskrit > > medical treatise,?and hopefully its meaning. > > > > Thank you, > > > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -- > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250806/c79c38e0/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2025 12:53:21 +0000 > From: Matthew Kapstein > To: Rolf Heinrich Koch > Cc: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the medical term jagr?? > Message-ID: > > <-SNaEjNpX-9B7nMrHZeT7cvT8edgbGUDfX4Tn13rn174JNZCgoHj7BQjnKL_7PKiD1ejciOWjDXc1xWZtpFNBOEL5mKVR4q1jyROwNljOf8=@ > proton.me> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I thought of that, too, Heiner, but I don't think that it can apply in the > 10th c., when the text was probably composed. > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Professor emeritus > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris > > Associate > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences > > https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein > > https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ > > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 > > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 > > https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 > > Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. > > On Wednesday, August 6th, 2025 at 2:46 PM, Rolf Heinrich Koch via INDOLOGY > wrote: > > > I connect jagr? with the kitul palm sugar (kitul juggery). It is used in > Ayurveda. And I eat it always for my tea. > > > > Heiner > > > > Am 06.08.2025 um 05:55 schrieb David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY: > > > >> I have not been able to find the medical term "jagr?" in any source > available to me. It occurs in verse 2.111c of the K?lacakra-tantra (so in > all manuscripts). It is in the phrase: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api > ja?hara-gat?n. So it refers to either an organ or a disease found in the > stomach area, along with pl?ha (i.e., pl?han, spleen) and ar?a (for ar?as, > hemorrhoids). I am seeking a source for it in any Sanskrit medical > treatise, and hopefully its meaning. > >> > >> Thank you, > >> > >> David Reigle > >> Colorado, U.S.A. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> > >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > -- > > Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka > > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250806/c57f68e1/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 16:48:21 +0200 > From: Kie Pue > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] JPTS upload in Heidelberg > Message-ID: <7FFE1849-5859-4994-B73D-966486271870 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear colleagues, > > this is to inform you that volumes 20 to 35 (1994?2024) of the Journal of > the Pali Text Society have been uploaded on the Heidelberg Asian Studies > Publishing Server of the University library in Heidelberg as an open access > journal. > > https://hasp.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/journals/jpts/index < > https://hasp.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/journals/jpts/index> > > > The remaining volumes will be uploaded after the IABS conference, and any > new volumes after they appeared in print. > > Best wishes, > Petra Kieffer-P?lz > > ********************* > > Dr. Petra Kieffer-P?lz > Pali Text Society > Honorary Secretary > > Email: kiefferpuelz at gmail.com > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250806/8ba13572/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 16:56:25 -0600 > From: Dominik Wujastyk > To: Indology > Cc: "Chandan R. Narayan" > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: INDOLOGY list--Atharvaveda 4vols > Message-ID: > < > CAKdt-Ceq59-6WZK8sy9xQhXJ2YeJCbqo+RsVc4tVRZKtzK37-Q at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Please reply directly to the author. > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Chandan R. Narayan > Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2025 at 10:11 > Subject: INDOLOGY list--Atharvaveda 4vols > To: wujastyk at ualberta.ca > > > Dear [colleagues], > > I was once a Sanskrit student at UC Berkeley (1990s) and collected many > books. I am in the process of giving away and selling some Sanskrit books > (housed at my parent's house in the bay area) and wanted to offer, to > anyone interested, a 4 volume Atharvaveda (with Sayana), 19th c. > Nirnayasagar press, for the cost of shipping from California. I used to be > a member of the Indology list, but no longer am .... > > Thanks, > Chandan Narayan > > ==================================== > Chandan Narayan > Associate Professor > Linguistics and Speech & Language Sciences > Speech Acoustics and Perception Lab > DLLL, York University > chandann at yorku.ca > ch-narayan.github.io > (416) 736-2100 x33791/33076 (office/lab) > ==================================== > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250806/36e53294/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 22:08:13 -0600 > From: David and Nancy Reigle > Cc: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the medical term jagr?? > Message-ID: > gPpWSWtjKgDRtMeNibpw at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thank you very much, Dan, Heiner, and Matthew, for your replies. Dan, what > the Dharmamitra.org site came up with is truly amazing. I had no idea that > such a research tool existed. It greatly helped to explain why the various > Tibetan translations of jagr? and pl?han are so mutually contradictory. > > There is no doubt that jagr? is the correct word. We have very old > palm-leaf manuscripts from near the time the *K?lacakra-tantra* and its > *Vimalaprabh?* commentary were written, circa 1025-1040 CE, and they all > agree on this spelling. This word must have been taken from some medical > text then available. > > The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter > by rMa lotsawa, translated jagr? as mcher pa, "spleen." The Rwa translation > translated jagr? as skran, "tumor." The 'Bro translation as revised by > Shong ston translated jagr? as dmu chu, "edema," and the Jonang revision of > the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. The Sarnath Sanskrit edition > of the *Vimalaprabh?* put yak?t in parentheses after jagr?, thus thinking > it means "liver." > > The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly thereafter > by rMa lotsawa, translated pl?han, "spleen," as mchin pa, "liver." The Rwa > translation translated pl?han as mchin nad, "liver disease." The 'Bro > translation as revised by Shong ston translated pl?han as skran, "tumor," > and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. > None of the four available Tibetan translations took pl?han as "spleen." > > The *Vimalaprabh?* commentary has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar?d?ni, > which seems to gloss jagr? as jalodara, "edema" (literally, "water belly"). > There is no other occurrence of the word jagr? in the *K?lacakra-tantra* or > *Vimalaprabh?*. > > It would be very helpful to find what medical text the term jagr? was taken > from. > > With thanks and best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250806/ff53e36a/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 05:10:57 +0000 > From: Arlo Griffiths > To: INDOLOGY > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Rayamukuta's Padacandrik?, ed. Kali Kumar Datta, > vol. 3 > Message-ID: > < > AS8PR10MB7326E17DB889BD83E5CD01A3A52CA at AS8PR10MB7326.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear colleagues, > > Through the kindness of Dr. Dhaval Patel, I have just received pdfs of > volumes 1 and 2 of the following 3-volume edition: > > Padacandrik? on the Amarako?a by R?yamuku?a (Text & the Commentary) > Edited by Kali Kumar Dutta, Sastri, > Sanskrit College, Calcutta > Calcutta Sanskrit College Research Series no. 48, 86, 126. > > Can anyone oblige me with a complete set, or at least a scan of volume 3? > > Many thanks. > > Arlo Griffiths > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/74d16b12/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2025 05:46:45 +0000 > From: Matthew Kapstein > To: David and Nancy Reigle > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] the medical term jagr?? > Message-ID: > > proton.me> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear David, > > On a hunch, I looked into Farsi possibilities and found ??? jigar meaning > liver. I think this may solve your mystery. > > I thought of this because my current project on the Yuddhajaya-svarodaya > revealed a curious connection with west Asian - Aramaic or Arabic - > materials. > > all best, > Matthew > > On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 06:09, David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <[ > indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 06:09, David > and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY < wrote: > > > Thank you very much, Dan, Heiner, and Matthew, for your replies. Dan, > what the Dharmamitra.org site came up with is truly amazing. I had no idea > that such a research tool existed. It greatly helped to explain why the > various Tibetan translations of jagr ? and pl ?han are so mutually > contradictory. > > > > There is no doubt that jagr ? is the correct word. We have very old > palm-leaf manuscripts from near the time the K?lacakra-tantra and its > Vimalaprabh? commentary were written, circa 1025-1040 CE, and they all > agree on this spelling. This word must have been taken from some medical > text then available. > > > > The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly > thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated jagr ? as mcher pa, "spleen." The Rwa > translation translated jagr ? as skran, "tumor." The 'Bro translation as > revised by Shong ston translated jagr ? as dmu chu, "edema," and the Jonang > revision of the Shong ston revision left this unchanged. The Sarnath > Sanskrit edition of the Vimalaprabh? put yak ?t in parentheses after jagr > ?, thus thinking it means "liver." > > > > The first Tibetan translation made, by Gyijo, as revised shortly > thereafter by rMa lotsawa, translated pl ?han, "spleen," as mchin pa, > "liver." The Rwa translation translated pl ?han as mchin nad, "liver > disease." The 'Bro translation as revised by Shong ston translated pl ?han > as skran, "tumor," and the Jonang revision of the Shong ston revision left > this unchanged. None of the four available Tibetan translations took pl > ?han as "spleen." > > > > The Vimalaprabh? commentary has: jagr?-pl?h?r?a-rog?n api jalodar ? d ? > ni, which seems to gloss jagr ? as jalodara, "edema" (literally, "water > belly"). There is no other occurrence of the word jagr? in the > K?lacakra-tantra or Vimalaprabh?. > > > > It would be very helpful to find what medical text the term jagr? was > taken from. > > > > With thanks and best regards, > > > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/86e6c0c4/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 13:28:55 +0200 > From: Nina Mirnig > To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] University of Vienna: Job announcement University > Assistant Predoc > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Dear colleagues, > > the University of Vienna is advertising a four-year predoctoral position > (Universit?tsassistent/in Praedoc; University Assistant Predoc) in > Pre-modern South Asian Studies (Indology) at the Department of South Asian, > Tibetan and Buddhist Studies. > > For further details, please see the attachment or the website of the > University's Job Center at: > > https://jobs.univie.ac.at/job/University-assistant-predoctoral/1234132601/ > > Applications have to be submitted via the Job Center no later than > September 05, 2025. > > Please kindly publicise this advertisement at your institution and forward > it to qualified candidates. > > With best wishes, > Nina > > ??? > > Univ.-Prof. Dr. Nina Mirnig BA MSt DPhil (Oxon) > University of Vienna > Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies > Address: Spitalgasse 2, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 > 1090 Vienna, Austria > Phone: +43-1-4277-43511 > > > > ?? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/2c8870af/attachment-0003.htm > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: PraeDoc am ISTB_DE.pdf > Type: application/pdf > Size: 938554 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/2c8870af/attachment-0002.pdf > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/2c8870af/attachment-0004.htm > > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: PraeDoc at the ISTB_EN.pdf > Type: application/pdf > Size: 932593 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/2c8870af/attachment-0003.pdf > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20250807/2c8870af/attachment-0005.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > ------------------------------ > > End of INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 1335, Issue 1 > ***************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agnes.korn at cnrs.fr Wed Aug 13 09:48:43 2025 From: agnes.korn at cnrs.fr (Agnes Korn) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 11:48:43 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ancient Greek for Sanskritists In-Reply-To: References: <9EF70138-CFFF-40AD-A60B-A1715FCBA5A0@uniroma1.it> <8054FEAD-2AD3-4763-B79A-023EA91435C1@uniroma1.it> <4a66b336-dbc0-4451-8c4a-3372beb3b917@univ-reims.fr> Message-ID: <6faaf56c-cf69-4d87-b7bb-6ae9d0bc3a54@cnrs.fr> Just to say that Mawet's Grammaire sanskrite ? l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes is available: https://www.peeters-leuven.be/detail.php?search_key=9789042925373 :-) Best, Agnes Le 09/08/2025 ? 18:03, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: > And here is a link to it > > https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k57970700.image > > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 18:02, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <> wrote: >> Already, Bergaigne 1884, a favourite of Louis Renou, was written with >> the expectation that one had Greek and Latin. I see nothing >> unfortunate about its being in French. >> Matthew >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 14:09, Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info > Jean Michel DELIRE via INDOLOGY <> wrote: >>> May I suggest the reading of F. Mawet's /Grammaire sanskrite ? >>> l'usage des ?tudiants hell?nistes et latinistes/, Peeters, Louvain, >>> 2012, which is, unhappily, in French ? Francine Mawet was my first >>> Sanskrit teacher at the University of Brussels, before I met >>> Pierre-Sylavin Filliozat in the early nineties. Her work was mainly >>> a comparatist's one, which explains why she choose to compare the >>> evolutions of Latin, Greek and Sanskrit languages. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jean Michel Delire >>> >>> Le?sam. 9 ao?t 2025 ??12:13, Satyanad Kichenassamy via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit?: >>> >>> Dear All, >>> >>> This announcement made me curious about the number of places in >>> India >>> where, say, ancient Greek is taught, and how it compares with >>> the number >>> of places in each of our respective countries where Sanskrit (or >>> ancient >>> Tamil, etc.) is taught. The study of (all) ancient languages is >>> threatened everywhere. >>> >>> A quick search did not lead to an answer, but did yield a few >>> things >>> that may be of interest to the list. >>> >>> Here is an example: "Jawaharlal Nehru University in New Delhi, >>> established in 1969, has housed a Greek Chair since 1998." Also, >>> " An >>> annual journal entitled Yavanika [...], devoted to research in >>> Greco-Indian studies and the exchange of ideas, is produced by >>> the Greek >>> Chair, which also publishes academic works and organises lectures, >>> workshops and seminars." >>> >>> https://www.leventisfoundation.org/universities-institutions/greek-chair-jawaharlal-nehru-university-new-delhi >>> >>> >>> There is also a Indo-Hellenic research centre in New Delhi. >>> >>> https://elinepa.org/inauguration-of-the-indo-hellenic-research-center-at-new-delhi/ >>> >>> >>> On how a British Indian student may feel excluded from Greek >>> studies, >>> see this paper in the Oxford Student newspaper. >>> >>> https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2020/07/08/fancy-an-indian-studying-greek-how-i-found-my-place-in-the-classical-tradition-as-a-british-indian/ >>> >>> >>> For Latin, here is a list of places that have an entrance >>> examination >>> for their Latin curriculum: >>> >>> https://www.shiksha.com/humanities-social-sciences/latin-chp >>> >>> I would assume Christian seminaries in India also routinely >>> teach Latin >>> and, in Kerala, Syriac, see this site: >>> >>> https://www.oasiscenter.eu/en/why-study-syriac-in-kottayam-india >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> >>> Satyanad Kichenassamy >>> >>> Le 09/08/2025 ? 00:57, Raffaele Torella via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: >>> > >>> >> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 20:37, Antonia Ruppel < >>> rhododaktylos at gmail.com> ha scritto: >>> >> >>> >> Dear Raffaele, >>> >> >>> >> It is good to hear from someone associated with Vivarium >>> Novum! Do you know how they are going to make use of the links >>> between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin for their curricula? I have >>> lots of experience with this and would be delighted to help. >>> > I do not think that the main aim of this initiative is to >>> create ?links" between Sanskrit and Latin-Greek, but to promote >>> the study of the classical Western languages in Indian >>> Universities, where it has been almost non-existent until now. >>> Then, Vivarium Novum plans to add the teaching of Sanskrit >>> culture to that of Latin and Greek in the framework of the >>> Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo. Your collaboration would be, of >>> course, very welcome. >>> >> But I wonder: when they go to India, will they continue the >>> slightly unusual policies from their Italian site (young men >>> only accepted if, among other things, they have their hair >>> short, young women either not accepted at all, or later accepted >>> but only if, unlike their male counterparts, they do not stay on >>> the grounds of the Accademia)? >>> > Let me add some comments to your remarks. About the management >>> of annual scholarship holders, Vivarium Novum is bound to cling >>> to the regulation of the Convitti Nazionali Italiani, which >>> provides for the accommodation of long-term scholarship holders >>> of different sexes in separate buildings. Of course, this >>> old-fashioned custom does not apply to the participants in >>> intensive courses or in the many international conferences they >>> organise. However, in order to overcome this unpleasant >>> limitation they are near to acquisition of the XVIII century >>> Villa Lucidi nearby, meant for accommodation of female long-term >>> scholarship holders. Finally, you said: ?when they go to >>> India??. They will not go to India: Latin and Greek will be >>> taught by young Indian scholars trained in the Academy's >>> courses. I am in touch with one of them, perhaps the most >>> brilliant student of recent years: he is from Nepal and has >>> indeed a very imposing name: Anandavardhan? >>> > >>> > Cari saluti, >>> > Raffaele >>> > >>> >> All my best, >>> >>? ? ? ? Antonia >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 19:04, Raffaele Torella < >>> raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it >> raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> I should like to draw your attention to the activity of >>> Vivarium Novum Academy ( https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.vivariumnovum.net/en&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3SRKsl-VURq20fjNp0R3np >>> >), >>> which is probably known to some of you as the venue of the >>> wonderful Raniero Gnoli day, held in October 2022 ( >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jc-HaEXsVoA&t=524s >>> < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3DJc-HaEXsVoA%26t%3D524s&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3iZp1RTjtkzMqoEJniQMdj >>> >). >>> In October 2024 it was also the seat of the Biannual Meeting of >>> the Italian Association for Sanskrit Studies. >>> >>> >>> >>> Vivarium Novum, Campus Mondiale dell?Umanesimo, housed in >>> the Borrominian Villa Falconieri near Frascati, promotes the >>> study of Latin (including Medieval and Renaissance Latin) and >>> Greek (Classical and Homeric) also as spoken languages. The >>> President, Prof. Luigi Miraglia, with whom I am in close >>> contact, has recently visited Nepal (for the WSC) and India in >>> order to create Latin and Greek curricula in the Sanskrit >>> Universities (to be extended in the near future to the major >>> Indian Universities). >>> >>> >>> >>> Warmest wishes, >>> >>> Raffaele >>> >>> >>> >>>> Il giorno 8 ago 2025, alle ore 17:41, Antonia Ruppel via >>> INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info >> indology at list.indology.info>> ha scritto: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Dear all, >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Seth Powell already sent out the Yogic Studies course >>> offerings for the autumn, but I wanted to take the liberty to >>> point out a YS course that may be of particular interest to >>> members of this list, Greek-S 101: Ancient Greek for >>> Sanskritists, which I will teach starting September 15. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I made a short video describing the course, which you can >>> watch here < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://youtu.be/XdJrcKwslck?si%253D9KRhtPi1G8-IXSRQ%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QVr7wjr5GTpVqlU0ArD2L&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw2-qNd_Q79wO9LS5UsG1aVA >>> >; >>> but in a nutshell: if you already know Sanskrit, you have an >>> excellent basis for getting to grips with Ancient Greek. There >>> is an enormous amount of overlap in the forms and their usage, >>> and the main difference between the two languages (the rather >>> more intricate rules of syntax that Greek has) is exactly what >>> we will be discussing in detail. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Greek-S 101 covers all Ancient Greek grammar with the help >>> of lots of custom-made resources; in 102, we will read Plato's >>> Apology, and in 103 either Sophocles' Antigone or Euripides' >>> Medea, both with readers I am making for each course. You can >>> find all information on this sequence of courses at >>> https://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101 < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://www.yogicstudies.com/greek-s-101%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1NWnxLGlNzzrGUFITTiq2z&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw0BzI87hMrDmXU5BzXSVBWf >>> >. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> All my best, >>> >>>>? ? ? Antonia >>> >>>> >>> >>>> PS: Our course 'Latin for Sanskritists' just ended two >>> weeks ago; the third term was 12 weeks of reading Seneca's >>> Letters and contrasting Hellenistic philosophies with some of >>> the philosophical approaches that we find in ancient India. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info> >>> >>>> >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755272552000000&usg=AOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI >>> >>> < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.google.com/url?q%3Dhttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology%26source%3Dgmail-imap%26ust%3D1755272552000000%26usg%3DAOvVaw1QtRjTI4rep5I5uL-h0RRI&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3fz1RWVytvi4smqxB46DG5 >>> > >>> >>> >>> Prof. Raffaele Torella >>> >>> Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit >>> >>> Sapienza University of Rome >>> >>> wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella >>> < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw3K_OKJ53Gy3Ysk8uffozBB >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori >>> >>> con il 5 per mille alla Sapienza >>> >>> Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit? 80209930587 >>> >>> Cinque?per?mille < >>> https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.uniroma1.it/it/node/23149&source=gmail-imap&ust=1755283088000000&usg=AOvVaw1CEhjf5IZfH2jc6y70d0JI >>> > >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > INDOLOGY mailing list >>> > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> -- >>> ********************************************** >>> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY >>> Professor of Mathematics >>> Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims? (CNRS, UMR9008) >>> ? ? ?and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) >>> Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne >>> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 >>> France >>> Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy >>> ********************************************** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Agnes Korn, PhD habil. CNRS ; UMR 8041 Centre de recherche sur le monde iranien (CeRMI) 7 rue Guy M?quet 94800 Villejuif France agnes.korn at cnrs.fr https://cermi.cnrs.fr/membres/korn-agnes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grimessm at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 16:45:24 2025 From: grimessm at gmail.com (Samuel Grimes) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 18:45:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok wow Tyler, thank you so much, this is fantastic! On Wed, Aug 13, 2025 at 5:26?AM Tyler Neill via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Hey Sam! Great idea. > > I respectfully approached today's Kalpataru (Gemini CLI) and made your > wish. Fast forward a few hours... And voil?! The mirror at > https://tylergneill.github.io/ngmcp-wiki-mirror now has a link to a > search.html . > There, you can enter search terms in whatever transliteration scheme you > like and browse through results. It's not grammar-aware. Let me know > whether it works, if you'd prefer another format, etc. > > For those so inclined, you can also download the collection of files from > GitHub and search the HTML files using regular expressions etc. > > Kind wishes, > Tyler > > > On Sat, Aug 9, 2025 at 8:03?AM > wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Samuel Grimes >> To: Jonathan Silk >> Cc: "Lubin, Tim" , INDOLOGY >> Bcc: >> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2025 11:10:25 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] NGMCP >> Following up, thank you so much to Tyler and Dominik for showing how to >> make the database navigable again. I was in a panic when the wiki began to >> 404. >> >> A question I have that I hope those who showed how to make the database >> available again is: is there a way to search for words that appear in the >> entry, but not the title? For example, if I want to see what colophons have >> the word "bhik?un?", on the original wiki I could search the word and >> all mss with the searched term in their catalog entry would populate in the >> search results. I cannot figure out if this is now possible. This ( >> https://catalogue.ngmcp.uni-hamburg.de/content/search/ngmcpdocument.xed) >> seems the most promising place to do so, but I have not had any luck in my >> attempts so far. >> >> Thank you again for making the database available! >> Sam >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 05:11:37 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 05:11:37 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika Message-ID: Dear colleagues, The ?abdakalpadruma contains quite a number of citations with attributions like bharatadh?taha??acandra?, bharatadh?tavy??i?, bharatadh?ta?abd?r?ava?, bharatadh?taratnako?a?, etc. I suspect that these may be taken from the works of Bharatasena alias Bharatamallika. (I am unable to check at this time whether there is explanation of this matter in the ?abdakalpadruma itself.) And I would like to be able to track down the source texts. If anyone can share any e-texts of any of the works of this apparently prolific 17th-c. author, I'd be very grateful. There is an elaborate entry concerning him in NCC 16, and also at https://panditproject.org/entity/40418/person. Related to the above: can anyone help me with a pdf of the following? D. C. Bhattacharya, "Bharatamallika and his Patron." IHQ XVIII-2. 1942, pp. 168-79. Thanks a lot. Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 13:36:42 2025 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 19:06:42 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit digitized lexica list circulation Message-ID: Respected Scholars, I had been bringing some Sanskrit lexica in digitized format earlier. In the same sprint, I did digitize some commentarial literature on Sanskrit ko?as. I have been trying to get them proof-read, but it has been taking way too long. Therefore, I have decided to put them on the list 'as is'. I would appreciate the correction submissions, if the list members come across errors. There are 20 digitized resources. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha is the github repository hosting all digitized lexical resources posted on the lists so far. I apologize for the cross-posting, but think that the list members may be interested in the information. With regards, Dhaval Sr. No. Work Author Link Remarks 1 Abhidh?nacint?ma?i - Svopaj?av?tti Hemacandra ACVH Proof-read. 2 Abhidh?nacint?ma?i - Vyutpattiratn?kara??k? Devas?garaga?i AVRD Pendig to proof-read. 3 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Amarako?odgh??anam K??rasv?min AKKS Credits to Mr. Pradeep Rastogi for Proof-reading. 4 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? N?macandrik? Vi??udatta?arman ANVS Pending to proof-read. 5 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Padacandrik? R?yamuku?a APCR Pending to proof-read. 6 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Amarapadap?rij?ta Mallin?tha APPM Pending to proof-read. Sr. No. 6,7,8 are clubbed together. 7 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Amarapadavivara?a Appay?rya APVA Pending to proof-read. Sr. No. 6,7,8 are clubbed together. 8 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Amarapadaviv?ti Li?gayas?ri APVL Pending to proof-read. Sr. No. 6,7,8 are clubbed together. 9 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Ras?l? ?aktidhara??strin ARSS Pending to proof-read. Credits to Sharada for correcting part 2 of the book. 10 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? ??k?sarvasva Sarv?nanda ATSS Proof-read. 11 N?mali?g?nu??sanam ? Amaraviveka Mahe?vara AVMH Pending to proof-read. 12 Anek?rthasa?graha ? Anek?rthakairavakaumud? Mahendras?ri ANKM Pending to proof-read. 13 Haiman?mam?l??ilo?cha ? D?pik? ?r?vallabha HSDS Credits to Mr. Pradeep Rastogi for proof-reading. 14 Dhana?jayan?mam?l? ? Bh??ya Amarak?rti NBAK Pending to proof-read. 15 N?n?rtha?abdaratna ? Taral? Niculakavi NSTN Pending to proof-read. 16 Nigha??u?e?a ? ??k? ?r?vallabha NSSV Credits to Mr. Pradeep Rastogi for proof-reading. 17 ?abdabhedaprak??a ? ??k? J??navimala SBGV Pending to proof-read. 18 Tantr?bhidh?na Unknown TNTR Proof-read by Dhaval. 19 Trik???a?e?a - S?r?rthacandrik? ??laskandha Mah?ter? TSVS Credits to Mr. Pradeep Rastogi for proof-reading. 20 Trik???a?e?avy?khy? Vi??udatta?arman TSVD Pending to proof-read. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:19:23 2025 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 14:19:23 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] One-year Hindi position at University of Chicago Message-ID: Dear all, I realize that the interests of this list are generally pr?c?natara, but my department at the University of Chicago is looking to fill a Hindi instructional professor position for one year, during a colleague's leave. If you are interested, or you have colleagues who may be interested, or you have questions about the position, please do not hesitate to get in contact with me. The Interfolio link is: https://apply.interfolio.com/171413 A copy of the ad is posted below. Andrew -------------------------- *Position Title:*Assistant Instructional Professor in Hindi *Location:*Chicago, IL *Position Type:*OAA - Lecturer/Senior Lecturer *Position URL:*apply.interfolio.com/171413 *Position Description*The Department of South Asian Languages and Civilizations and the College at the University of Chicago invite applications for a one-year position as Assistant Instructional Professor in Hindi with a start date of January 1, 2026 or as soon as possible thereafter and end date of December 31, 2026. This is a non-renewable, one-year appointment to fill an immediate curricular need. Responsibilities include both teaching and service duties. Teaching consists of six language courses across the Winter 2026, Spring 2026, and Autumn 2026 quarters at the first- and second-year levels of the language, as well as one additional course, which may be outside of the Hindi language program (options include a course in the University of Chicago Core Curriculum, or a content course of the instructor?s design). Service duties will include grading competency examinations in Winter 2026 and assisting with student placement for Fall 2026 courses; they may also include assisting with the training of course assistants. *Salary Range or Pay Grade:*Assistant Instructional Professor: $73,117-78,965; This base pay range is for a nine-month academic appointment. The University of Chicago offers a wide range of benefits programs and resources for eligible employees, including health, retirement, and paid time off. Information about the benefit offerings can be found in the Benefits Guidebook . *Qualifications* Prior experience teaching Hindi at the college or university level is preferred. An M.A. degree or equivalent is required. A Ph.D. in a related field is desirable. Applicants must demonstrate sufficient language ability for teaching Hindi in a university context. Candidates with specialized training in second language acquisition, second language pedagogy, and/or assessment are especially encouraged to apply. *Application Instructions*To apply for this position, please submit your application through the University of Chicago?s Academic Recruitment website at apply.interfolio.com/171413. An application is required to include: - CV - Cover Letter - Teaching Statement - One sample syllabus for Introductory Hindi - One sample syllabus for a non-language course - Names and contact information for three references who can supply letters of recommendation upon request Shortlisted applicants will be asked to provide a prerecorded 20-minute teaching demonstration. Questions may be directed to salc at uchicago.edu. *Application deadline: *Applications must be received by 10:59 PM CT/11:59 PM ET on September 18, 2025. Only complete applications can be considered. The terms and conditions of employment for this position are covered by a collective bargaining agreement between the University and the Service Employees International Union. *Equal Employment Opportunity Statement*The University of Chicago is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity or expression, national or ethnic origin, shared ancestry, age, status as an individual with a disability, military or veteran status, genetic information, or other protected classes under the law. For additional information please see the University's Notice of Nondiscrimination . Job seekers in need of a reasonable accommodation to complete the application process should call 773-834-3988 or email equalopportunity at uchicago.edu with their request. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kiefferpuelz at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:51:24 2025 From: kiefferpuelz at gmail.com (Kie Pue) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 21:51:24 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New publication Message-ID: <5DDFD14B-AC04-4F16-802E-E518E3E8A7A8@gmail.com> Dear colleagues, We are pleased to announce the publication of vol. 30 of the Studia Indologica Universitatis Halensis. Aruna Gamage, Buddhaghosa. His Sources, and the Buddhist Others. Authority and Heterodoxy in Early Mah?vih?ra Commentaries, Halle-Wittenberg 2025, 362 S. Hardcover, Fadenheftung Through the lens of P?li commentarial literature, this book illustrates how Mah?vih?ra exegetes shaped their tradition?s doctrinal identity. At the heart of this tradition stands Buddhaghosa, whose commentaries remain central to under?standing the intellectual practices of this sole survivor among the ancient Sri Lankan Theriya schools. No mere compiler, Buddhaghosa emerges in this study as a discerning and methodical interpreter, working with multiple recensions of the Buddhist canon and drawing upon early commentaries now lost to time. His exegetical strategies are subtle yet systematic, often imperceptibly reshaping inherited material to affirm the Mah?vih?ra perspective as authoritative. Though he rarely voices personal opinions, he guides his readers into a refined, and at times previously unattested, doctrinal vision. The book also sheds new light on key controversies between Mah?vih?ra exegetes and their critics?frequently derided as sophists (Vita??av?dins)?particularly with regard to the ontological status of nibb?na. It reveals the literary finesse and herme?neutical creativity with which Buddhaghosa and other major exegetes (including Dhammap?la and Buddhadatta) defended their positions, providing a compelling, original take on early Mah?vih?ra textual and doctrinal interpretation. 1st edition hardcover, thread stitched, 362 pages ISBN 978-3-86977-268-4 https://uvhw.de/neu-erscheinungen/product/250815_08-268-4.html? Gamage | Buddhaghosa as Exegete: Divergence and Aut? - Neuerscheinungen - Universit?tsverlag Halle-Wittenberg uvhw.de The book can be ordered from the publisher or via bookshops (except for Amazon), With best wishes, Petra Kieffer-P?lz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 250815_08-268-4-b5489e55.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16451 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 23:26:39 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 17:26:39 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Bharatamallika, see also the interesting paper by Pascale Haag, Haag, Pascale. 2012. ?I Wanna Be a Brahmin Too. Grammar, Tradition and Mythology as Means for Social Legitimisation among the Vaidyas in Bengal.? In *Sa?sk?ta-S?dhut? ?Goodness of Sanskrit?: Studies in Honour of Professor Ashok N. Aklujkar,* edited by Chikafumi Watanabe, Michele M. Desmarais, and Yoshichika Honda. 2012, New Delhi. D. K. Printworld. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 at 23:13, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > The ?abdakalpadruma contains quite a number of citations with attributions > like > > bharatadh?taha??acandra?, bharatadh?tavy??i?, bharatadh?ta?abd?r?ava?, > bharatadh?taratnako?a?, etc. > > I suspect that these may be taken from the works of Bharatasena alias > Bharatamallika. (I am unable to check at this time whether there is > explanation of this matter in the ?abdakalpadruma itself.) And I would like > to be able to track down the source texts. > > If anyone can share any e-texts of any of the works of this apparently > prolific 17th-c. author, I'd be very grateful. > > There is an elaborate entry concerning him in NCC 16, and also at > https://panditproject.org/entity/40418/person. > > Related to the above: can anyone help me with a pdf of the following? > > D. C. Bhattacharya, "Bharatamallika and his Patron*." IHQ *XVIII-2. 1942, > pp. 168-79. > > Thanks a lot. > > Arlo Griffiths > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 23:48:23 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2025 23:48:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks a lot Dominik. Would you be able to supply pdf of Pascale Haag's article? Thanks to Tim Lubin and Chistophe Vielle for helping me D. C. Bhattacharya's article. Are Bharatamallika's commentaries on the Amarako?a and his medical writings, not to mention other works, really still unpublished? Best wishes, Arlo ________________________________ From: Dominik Wujastyk Sent: Friday, August 15, 2025 11:26 PM To: Arlo Griffiths Cc: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika On Bharatamallika, see also the interesting paper by Pascale Haag, Haag, Pascale. 2012. ?I Wanna Be a Brahmin Too. Grammar, Tradition and Mythology as Means for Social Legitimisation among the Vaidyas in Bengal.? In Sa?sk?ta-S?dhut? ?Goodness of Sanskrit?: Studies in Honour of Professor Ashok N. Aklujkar, edited by Chikafumi Watanabe, Michele M. Desmarais, and Yoshichika Honda. 2012, New Delhi. D. K. Printworld. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 at 23:13, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, The ?abdakalpadruma contains quite a number of citations with attributions like bharatadh?taha??acandra?, bharatadh?tavy??i?, bharatadh?ta?abd?r?ava?, bharatadh?taratnako?a?, etc. I suspect that these may be taken from the works of Bharatasena alias Bharatamallika. (I am unable to check at this time whether there is explanation of this matter in the ?abdakalpadruma itself.) And I would like to be able to track down the source texts. If anyone can share any e-texts of any of the works of this apparently prolific 17th-c. author, I'd be very grateful. There is an elaborate entry concerning him in NCC 16, and also at https://panditproject.org/entity/40418/person. Related to the above: can anyone help me with a pdf of the following? D. C. Bhattacharya, "Bharatamallika and his Patron." IHQ XVIII-2. 1942, pp. 168-79. Thanks a lot. Arlo Griffiths _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Sat Aug 16 10:29:14 2025 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 10:29:14 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72429C46-1DB8-4934-A600-F6E73BF0A4C3@uclouvain.be> For the commentaries on 'other works', at least two are edited: ? Subodha? on Ka?lida?sa's Meghasandes?a Meghasandes?a of Ka?lida?sa : text and English translation with twelve Sanskrit commentaries : Pan?jika? of Vallabhadeva, Ba?labodhini? of Sthiradeva, Pradi?pa of Daks?in?a?vartana?tha, Ca?ritravardhini? of Caritravardhana, San?ji?vini? of Mallina?tha, S?is?yahitais?in?i? of Laks?mi?niva?sa, Vidyullata? of Pu?rn?asarasvati?, Sumanoraman?i? of Parames?vara, Subodha? of Bharatasena, Sugama?nvayavr?tti of Sumativijaya, Meghadu?tat?i?ka? of Kr?s?n?napati, Rasadi?pini? of Jagadhara / editor, Prof. N.P. Unni ; general editor, Dr. Dilip Kumar Rana. -- First edition. -- Ernakulam, Kerala, India : Chinmaya International Foundation Shodha Sansthan, 2016. xi, 807 pages ; 25 cm. -- (Chinmaya research series ; 14) ISBN 9789380864259 ? the intr. of this book contains a detailed section on Bharatamallika and his unpublished mss. (his com. on Nalodaya, one ms. in IO, appears omitted both here and in Bhattacharya's article) Meghadu?tam in the eyes of the commentators : a descriptive study of the texts with twelve commentaries, Sthiradeva-Ba?laprabodhini?, Vallabha-Pan?jika?, Daks?in?avartana?tha-pradi?pa Caritravardhana-Cha?ritravardhini?, Jagaddhara-Rasadi?pini?, Mallanina?tha-San?ji?vani?, Pu?rn?asarasvati?-Vidyullata?, Parames?vara-Sumanoraman?i?, Bharatamallika-Subodha?, Kr?s?n?apati-Vahoran?a, Narahari-Brahmapraka?s?ika?, Brahmas?an?karmis?ra-Bha?vabodhini?.Classical Sanskrit poem on the story of Yaks?a who sends message to his wife through megha (cloud) with twelve commentaries; includes translations in English. Dilli?, Bha?rata : Pratibha? Praka?s?ana, 2016. viii, 617 pages ; 28 cm ISBN 9788177023800 ? Mugdhabodhini? on the Bhat?t?ika?vya : several eds in Calcutta, the first one already in 1828 (see NCC + D. C. Bhattacharya's art. fn. 1 - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.429222/page/767/mode/2up - https://archive.org/details/TheIndianHistoricalQuarterlyVol.XVIII/page/n207/mode/2up - in the BL IO collection of Books s.v. Bharatamallika) Bhattacharya gives also the references to the eds of four of Bharatasena's original works ? two which are genealogical treaties (Ratnaprabha? and Chandraprabha?; see ref. of the former only p. 170 fn. 9 + for both ones in Barnett, A Suppl. Cat. ... in the Library of the British Museum, 1908, s.v. Bharatasena) and two small grammatical works in verses, one on monosyllabic homonyms and one on ka?rakas (see ref. by D. C. Bhattacharya's art. fn. 11-12 + NCC). There could be eds in Bengali script of some of his other grammatical or medical writings. bw Le 16 ao?t 2025 ? 01:48, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Thanks a lot Dominik. Would you be able to supply pdf of Pascale Haag's article? Thanks to Tim Lubin and Chistophe Vielle for helping me D. C. Bhattacharya's article. Are Bharatamallika's commentaries on the Amarako?a and his medical writings, not to mention other works, really still unpublished? Best wishes, Arlo ________________________________ From: Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2025 11:26 PM To: Arlo Griffiths > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika On Bharatamallika, see also the interesting paper by Pascale Haag, Haag, Pascale. 2012. ?I Wanna Be a Brahmin Too. Grammar, Tradition and Mythology as Means for Social Legitimisation among the Vaidyas in Bengal.? In Sa?sk?ta-S?dhut? ?Goodness of Sanskrit?: Studies in Honour of Professor Ashok N. Aklujkar, edited by Chikafumi Watanabe, Michele M. Desmarais, and Yoshichika Honda. 2012, New Delhi. D. K. Printworld. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 at 23:13, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, The ?abdakalpadruma contains quite a number of citations with attributions like bharatadh?taha??acandra?, bharatadh?tavy??i?, bharatadh?ta?abd?r?ava?, bharatadh?taratnako?a?, etc. I suspect that these may be taken from the works of Bharatasena alias Bharatamallika. (I am unable to check at this time whether there is explanation of this matter in the ?abdakalpadruma itself.) And I would like to be able to track down the source texts. If anyone can share any e-texts of any of the works of this apparently prolific 17th-c. author, I'd be very grateful. There is an elaborate entry concerning him in NCC 16, and also at https://panditproject.org/entity/40418/person. Related to the above: can anyone help me with a pdf of the following? D. C. Bhattacharya, "Bharatamallika and his Patron." IHQ XVIII-2. 1942, pp. 168-79. Thanks a lot. Arlo Griffiths _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From finn.mooregerety at ames.ox.ac.uk Sat Aug 16 13:33:38 2025 From: finn.mooregerety at ames.ox.ac.uk (Finn Moore Gerety) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 13:33:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Message-ID: Dear colleagues? I?m trying to substantiate my vague impression that some 19th-century Orientalists denigrated Sanskrit mantras as mumbo-jumbo and nonsense. I wonder if anyone on this list can point me to direct quotations or historiographic discussions of this. To be clear, I?m interested in early Orientalist discourse on mantras in particular?not critiques of other Sanskrit genres such as Vedic prose (? la Max M?ller?s notorious ?twaddle? quotation). Thanks in advance, Finn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Sat Aug 16 16:51:04 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 16:51:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Finn, I?m off in the boondocks with just my telephone, so I can?t send you precise references just now. But in connection with Buddhist tantra, you may wish to look at A. Csoma de K?r?s, Tibetan Studies, collecting his shorter articles and notes, with many concerning Indian Buddhist tantras. Burnouf also delved into this material in his Histoire, as did Vasilyev in his Buddizm. These figures were all on the more sympathetic side of the spectrum. L. Austin Waddell, on the other hand, may be the sort of author you?re looking for, if you want to find bald condemnations. Of course, I am referring only to tantric mantras, not Vedic. Good luck, Matthew On Sat, Aug 16, 2025 at 15:34, Finn Moore Gerety via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Sat, Aug 16, 2025 at 15:34, Finn Moore Gerety via INDOLOGY < wrote: > Dear colleagues? > > I?m trying to substantiate my vague impression that some 19th-century Orientalists denigrated Sanskrit mantras as mumbo-jumbo and nonsense. I wonder if anyone on this list can point me to direct quotations or historiographic discussions of this. > > To be clear, I?m interested in early Orientalist discourse on mantras in particular?not critiques of other Sanskrit genres such as Vedic prose (? la Max M?ller?s notorious ?twaddle? quotation). > > Thanks in advance, > > Finn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wlharris at ucdavis.edu Sat Aug 16 17:17:54 2025 From: wlharris at ucdavis.edu (Westin Harris) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 23:02:54 +0545 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hemakutakhanda & Vijayanagara - sources and questions Message-ID: Greetings esteemed INDOLOGists, I am seeking some help in procuring soft copies of several sources related to Vijayanagara, the *Pampamahatmya* and/or *Hemakutakhanda*, and the (since disbanded?) Vijayanagara Research Project (VRP). I have also appended two open questions to all INDOLOGists at the bottom of this email. I am writing from my phone so I apologize for the lack of diacritics. *PDF REQUESTS*: - *Vijayanagara: Progress of Research, 1984-1987. Directorate of Archaeology and Museums, Mysore, India.* - Specifically, I am looking for the following article contained in the above, but a PDF of the whole issue would be helpful ... - *Wagoner, Philip (1985) "Architecture and Mythic Space at the Hemakuta Hill: A Pre!iminary Report."* In *Vijayanagara: Progress of Research, 1984-1987*. Directorate of Archaeology and Museums, Mysore, India - *"Hemakutakhanda of the Skanda Purana," Synopsis by A.A. Shapiro in English of the Sanskrit manuscript. * - I believe this is an unpublished source. So if it is not able to be shared, I do understand. - I have been told that the late *Asim Krisna Das of the VRP edited and translated part of the **Pampamahatmya.* I wonder if either the edition or translation are able to be shared? Once again, I understand if not. *QUESTIONS*: 1. It is my understanding that the *Hemakutakhanda* attributes itself to one *Bharadvajasamhita* of the *Adimahapurana* (ie. the *Skandapurana*?). I presume, then, that this is *not* the same *Bharadvajasamhita* associated with the *Naradapancaratra*. It seems that the *Kadalimanjunathamahatmya* also attributes itself to a *Bharadvajasamhita*, likely the former though possibly a slesha of both (given the text's Bauddha-Shaiva core with later Vaisnava interpolations)? *Does anyone know of any other Deccan sthala-puranas/-mahatmyas that attribute themselves to either of these two Bharadvajasamhitas*? 2. The *Kadalimanjunathamahatmya* contains a rendition of Virupaksha's encounter with Indra, including the dueling elephants/dueling mountains narrative topos, mirroring the first verse of the *Virupakshapanchashika*. Some colleagues have suggested that other renditions of this vignette might be found in literature and/or folklore affiliated with the cult of Virupaksha at Hampi. *Does anyone know of any other mentions of Virupaksha's (dueling elephants/dueling mountains) encounter with Indra beyond the Kadalimanjunathamahatmya and Virupakshapanchashika?? * Direct answers or references to secondary sources will be equally appreciated. *Sincerely,* *Westin Harris* Ph.D. Candidate Study of Religion University of California, Davis https://religionsgrad.ucdavis.edu/people/westin-harris 2021 Dissertation Fellow, The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Program in Buddhist Studies Sarva Mangalam. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slindqui at mail.smu.edu Sat Aug 16 17:45:53 2025 From: slindqui at mail.smu.edu (Lindquist, Steven) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2025 17:45:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Robert Yelle has written on this, perhaps articles as well (but I'm away from my files so can't verify). See his: Explaining Mantras Ritual, Rhetoric, and the Dream of a Natural Language in Hindu Tantra (Routledge, 2003) Steven Lindquist Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Finn Moore Gerety via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2025 8:33:38 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Dear colleagues? I?m trying to substantiate my vague impression that some 19th-century Orientalists denigrated Sanskrit mantras as mumbo-jumbo and nonsense. I wonder if anyone on this list can point me to direct quotations or historiographic discussions of this. To be clear, I?m interested in early Orientalist discourse on mantras in particular?not critiques of other Sanskrit genres such as Vedic prose (? la Max M?ller?s notorious ?twaddle? quotation). Thanks in advance, Finn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr Sun Aug 17 07:50:20 2025 From: satyanad.kichenassamy at univ-reims.fr (Satyanad KICHENASSAMY) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 09:50:20 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hemakutakhanda & Vijayanagara - sources and questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40073A8A-F2A7-472E-83C2-8492AFE3D72E@univ-reims.fr> The right person to answer these is Mrs Vasundhara Filliozat. She and her (late) husband have prepared a translation of Pampamahatmya that will hopefully come out soon. Let me know if you want me to forward your message to her. Best regards, Satyanad Kichenassamy Le 16 ao?t 2025 19:17:54 GMT+02:00, Westin Harris via INDOLOGY a ?crit?: >Greetings esteemed INDOLOGists, > >I am seeking some help in procuring soft copies of several sources related >to Vijayanagara, the *Pampamahatmya* and/or *Hemakutakhanda*, and the >(since disbanded?) Vijayanagara Research Project (VRP). I have also >appended two open questions to all INDOLOGists at the bottom of this email. > >I am writing from my phone so I apologize for the lack of diacritics. > >*PDF REQUESTS*: > > - *Vijayanagara: Progress of Research, 1984-1987. Directorate of > Archaeology and Museums, Mysore, India.* > - Specifically, I am looking for the following article contained in > the above, but a PDF of the whole issue would be helpful ... > - *Wagoner, Philip (1985) "Architecture and Mythic Space at the > Hemakuta Hill: A Pre!iminary Report."* In *Vijayanagara: Progress of > Research, 1984-1987*. Directorate of Archaeology and Museums, Mysore, > India > - *"Hemakutakhanda of the Skanda Purana," Synopsis by A.A. Shapiro in > English of the Sanskrit manuscript. * > - I believe this is an unpublished source. So if it is not able to be > shared, I do understand. > - I have been told that the late *Asim Krisna Das of the VRP edited and > translated part of the **Pampamahatmya.* I wonder if either the edition > or translation are able to be shared? Once again, I understand if not. > >*QUESTIONS*: > > > 1. It is my understanding that the *Hemakutakhanda* attributes itself to > one *Bharadvajasamhita* of the *Adimahapurana* (ie. the *Skandapurana*?). > I presume, then, that this is *not* the same *Bharadvajasamhita* > associated with the *Naradapancaratra*. It seems that the > *Kadalimanjunathamahatmya* also attributes itself to a > *Bharadvajasamhita*, likely the former though possibly a slesha of both > (given the text's Bauddha-Shaiva core with later Vaisnava >interpolations)? *Does > anyone know of any other Deccan sthala-puranas/-mahatmyas that attribute > themselves to either of these two Bharadvajasamhitas*? > 2. The *Kadalimanjunathamahatmya* contains a rendition of Virupaksha's > encounter with Indra, including the dueling elephants/dueling mountains > narrative topos, mirroring the first verse of the *Virupakshapanchashika*. > Some colleagues have suggested that other renditions of this vignette might > be found in literature and/or folklore affiliated with the cult of > Virupaksha at Hampi. *Does anyone know of any other mentions of > Virupaksha's (dueling elephants/dueling mountains) encounter with Indra > beyond the Kadalimanjunathamahatmya and Virupakshapanchashika?? * > >Direct answers or references to secondary sources will be equally >appreciated. > > >*Sincerely,* > >*Westin Harris* >Ph.D. Candidate >Study of Religion >University of California, Davis >https://religionsgrad.ucdavis.edu/people/westin-harris > > >2021 Dissertation Fellow, >The Robert H. N. Ho Family Foundation Program in Buddhist Studies > >Sarva Mangalam. ********************************************** Satyanad KICHENASSAMY Professor of Mathematics Laboratoire de Math?matiques de Reims (CNRS, UMR9008) and GREI (EPHE-Paris and Sorbonne-Universit?) Universit? de Reims Champagne-Ardenne F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 France Web: https://www.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy ********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From finn.mooregerety at ames.ox.ac.uk Sun Aug 17 15:56:32 2025 From: finn.mooregerety at ames.ox.ac.uk (Finn Moore Gerety) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2025 15:56:32 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all? Thanks to those who have replied with fascinating information, both on- an off-list. To judge from my very unscientific sample so far, it seems that Orientalists by and large were more even-handed in their assessments of mantras that I had assumed they would be. One of the few negative statements I?ve found so far (thanks to John Nemec) is from Monier-Williams?see below. Yours, Finn Monier-Williams on mantras in Durga puja, Brahmanism and Hinduism p198: ?To us it may seem extraordinary that intelligent persons can give credence to such absurdities, or lend themselves to the practice of superstitions so senseless; but we must bear in mind that with may Hind? thinkers the notion of the eternity of sound?as propounded in Pata?jali?s Mah?bh?shya (I.1.1) and in the P?rva-m?m??s? of Jaimini?is by no means an irrational doctrine?? From: Lindquist, Steven Date: Saturday, 16 August 2025 at 18:46 To: Finn Moore Gerety , indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Robert Yelle has written on this, perhaps articles as well (but I'm away from my files so can't verify). See his: Explaining Mantras Ritual, Rhetoric, and the Dream of a Natural Language in Hindu Tantra (Routledge, 2003) Steven Lindquist Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Finn Moore Gerety via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2025 8:33:38 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Dear colleagues? I?m trying to substantiate my vague impression that some 19th-century Orientalists denigrated Sanskrit mantras as mumbo-jumbo and nonsense. I wonder if anyone on this list can point me to direct quotations or historiographic discussions of this. To be clear, I?m interested in early Orientalist discourse on mantras in particular?not critiques of other Sanskrit genres such as Vedic prose (? la Max M?ller?s notorious ?twaddle? quotation). Thanks in advance, Finn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 01:35:23 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 01:35:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] article by N. P. Chakravarti Message-ID: Dear colleague, Could anyone help me obtain a pdf of the following? Chakravarti, N. P. 1926. ?Les mots bh??? dans le commentaire de Sarv?nanda sur l?Amarako?a.? Journal Asiatique 209: 81?100. Thank you! Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 04:07:45 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 04:07:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?=C5=9Aabdakalpadruma?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Is there any source to which I can turn for understanding the publication history (including chronology and relationship between Bengali-script and Devanagari-script editions) of Raja Radhakanta Deva's ?abdakalpadruma? I have not found much better than these items in English, Hindi and Spanish: https://en.banglapedia.org/index.php/Shabdakalpadruma https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%AE ????????????? - ?????????? ???? ????????????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??- ????, ? ? ... hi.wikipedia.org https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabda_Kalpadruma There is also a wikipedia page in Bengali that I have not yet tried to read. I have not yet found digital versions of any edition of volume 1 predating 1875, and yet all the above sources claim that publication started decades earlier. They never specify in which script. Thanks for any pointers! Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 04:33:10 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 04:33:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika In-Reply-To: <72429C46-1DB8-4934-A600-F6E73BF0A4C3@uclouvain.be> References: <72429C46-1DB8-4934-A600-F6E73BF0A4C3@uclouvain.be> Message-ID: Thanks a lot Christophe. Via worldcat and other resources, I had myself identified the following editions: Banerji, Sures Chandra. 1960. ?Ekavar??rtha-Sa?graha of Bharatamallika.? Indian Historical Quarterly 36: 29?34. [https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99785/page/n43/mode/2up]. ???. 1964. ?Dvir?pa-Dhvani-Sa?graha of Bharatamallika.? Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute 45 (1/4): 49?77. [https://www.jstor.org/stable/41682443]. Bharatamallika & J?nak?n?tha. 1924. K?rakoll?sa?. Sa?skr?tas?hityapari?adgrantham?l?y?m. Calcutta: Sanskrit Sahitya Parisad. Bha??i. 1828. Bhatti Kavya: a poem on the actions of Rama. I-II?: with the commentaries of the Jayamangala and Bharatamallika. Calcutta: printed at the education press. [https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/details/bsb10250886]. Chaudhuri, Jatindra Bimal. 1950. The Meghad?ta of K?lid?sa. The Commentary of Bharata Mallika and Copious Extracts from the Hitherto Unpublished Commentaries. H.E. Dr. K.N. Katju Series. ???. 2008. The Meghad?ta of K?lid?sa: With Commentary Subodh? of Bharata Mallika. Kolkata: Sanskrit Sahitya Parishat. Nityasvar?pa-Brahmac?r?. 1926. Nai?adh?yacaritam: Mah?kavi ??r? Har?a? viracitam, Mah?mahop?dhy?ya-N?r?ya?abha??a-Bharatamallika-Va???vadana?arma-viracita??k?bhi? samullasitam. ????????????; ???????-???????-???????????-????????? ?????????? ????????? = Sukhalekhanam of Bharata Sena / edited by Ramdhan Sastri, Bharatasena, R?madhana ??stri & ?????????????. 1957. Sukhalekhanam. Sa?skr?ta-S?hitya-Pari?ad-grantham?l?. Kalik?t?: Sa?skr?ta-S?hitya-Pari?at. To that list, thanks to you, I can now add: Unni, N. P. & Dilip Kumar Rana, eds. 2016. Meghasande?a of K?lid?sa, Text and English Translation with Twelve Sanskrit Commentaries: Pa?jik? of Vallabhadeva, B?labodhin? of Sthiradeva, Prad?pa of Dak?i??vartan?tha, C?ritravardhin? of Caritravardhana, Sa?j?vin? of Mallin?tha, ?i?yahitai?i?? of Lak?m?niv?sa, Vidyullat? of P?r?asarasvat?, Sumanorama?? of Parame?vara, Subodh? of Bharatasena, Sugam?nvayav?tti of Sumativijaya, Meghad?ta??k? of K???napati, Rasad?pin? of Jagadhara. Chinmaya Research Series. Ernakulam: Chinmaya International Foundation Shodha Sansthan. Misra, Prafulla Kumar & Nivedita Pati. 2016. Meghad?tam in the eyes of the commentators: A descriptive study of the texts with twelve commentaries (Dv?da?a??kopetam Meghad?tam). Delhi: Pratibha Prakashan. As indicated, I have identified digital versions of three items, but not of the remaining ones. If anyone can furnish any pdfs, I'd be grateful. I am particularly eager to obtain the commentary on the Nai?adh?yacarita. Best wishes, Arlo ________________________________ From: Christophe Vielle Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2025 10:29 AM To: Arlo Griffiths Cc: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika For the commentaries on 'other works', at least two are edited: ? Subodha? on Ka?lida?sa's Meghasandes?a Meghasandes?a of Ka?lida?sa : text and English translation with twelve Sanskrit commentaries : Pan?jika? of Vallabhadeva, Ba?labodhini? of Sthiradeva, Pradi?pa of Daks?in?a?vartana?tha, Ca?ritravardhini? of Caritravardhana, San?ji?vini? of Mallina?tha, S?is?yahitais?in?i? of Laks?mi?niva?sa, Vidyullata? of Pu?rn?asarasvati?, Sumanoraman?i? of Parames?vara, Subodha? of Bharatasena, Sugama?nvayavr?tti of Sumativijaya, Meghadu?tat?i?ka? of Kr?s?n?napati, Rasadi?pini? of Jagadhara / editor, Prof. N.P. Unni ; general editor, Dr. Dilip Kumar Rana. -- First edition. -- Ernakulam, Kerala, India : Chinmaya International Foundation Shodha Sansthan, 2016. xi, 807 pages ; 25 cm. -- (Chinmaya research series ; 14) ISBN 9789380864259 ? the intr. of this book contains a detailed section on Bharatamallika and his unpublished mss. (his com. on Nalodaya, one ms. in IO, appears omitted both here and in Bhattacharya's article) Meghadu?tam in the eyes of the commentators : a descriptive study of the texts with twelve commentaries, Sthiradeva-Ba?laprabodhini?, Vallabha-Pan?jika?, Daks?in?avartana?tha-pradi?pa Caritravardhana-Cha?ritravardhini?, Jagaddhara-Rasadi?pini?, Mallanina?tha-San?ji?vani?, Pu?rn?asarasvati?-Vidyullata?, Parames?vara-Sumanoraman?i?, Bharatamallika-Subodha?, Kr?s?n?apati-Vahoran?a, Narahari-Brahmapraka?s?ika?, Brahmas?an?karmis?ra-Bha?vabodhini?.Classical Sanskrit poem on the story of Yaks?a who sends message to his wife through megha (cloud) with twelve commentaries; includes translations in English. Dilli?, Bha?rata : Pratibha? Praka?s?ana, 2016. viii, 617 pages ; 28 cm ISBN 9788177023800 ? Mugdhabodhini? on the Bhat?t?ika?vya : several eds in Calcutta, the first one already in 1828 (see NCC + D. C. Bhattacharya's art. fn. 1 - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.429222/page/767/mode/2up - https://archive.org/details/TheIndianHistoricalQuarterlyVol.XVIII/page/n207/mode/2up - in the BL IO collection of Books s.v. Bharatamallika) Bhattacharya gives also the references to the eds of four of Bharatasena's original works ? two which are genealogical treaties (Ratnaprabha? and Chandraprabha?; see ref. of the former only p. 170 fn. 9 + for both ones in Barnett, A Suppl. Cat. ... in the Library of the British Museum, 1908, s.v. Bharatasena) and two small grammatical works in verses, one on monosyllabic homonyms and one on ka?rakas (see ref. by D. C. Bhattacharya's art. fn. 11-12 + NCC). There could be eds in Bengali script of some of his other grammatical or medical writings. bw Le 16 ao?t 2025 ? 01:48, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Thanks a lot Dominik. Would you be able to supply pdf of Pascale Haag's article? Thanks to Tim Lubin and Chistophe Vielle for helping me D. C. Bhattacharya's article. Are Bharatamallika's commentaries on the Amarako?a and his medical writings, not to mention other works, really still unpublished? Best wishes, Arlo ________________________________ From: Dominik Wujastyk > Sent: Friday, August 15, 2025 11:26 PM To: Arlo Griffiths > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Bharatasena/Bharatamallika On Bharatamallika, see also the interesting paper by Pascale Haag, Haag, Pascale. 2012. ?I Wanna Be a Brahmin Too. Grammar, Tradition and Mythology as Means for Social Legitimisation among the Vaidyas in Bengal.? In Sa?sk?ta-S?dhut? ?Goodness of Sanskrit?: Studies in Honour of Professor Ashok N. Aklujkar, edited by Chikafumi Watanabe, Michele M. Desmarais, and Yoshichika Honda. 2012, New Delhi. D. K. Printworld. Best, Dominik -- Dominik Wujastyk, Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta "The University of Alberta is committed to the pursuit of truth, the advancement of learning, and the dissemination of knowledge through teaching, research and other scholarly and creative activities and service." -- Collective Agreement 3.01 On Thu, 14 Aug 2025 at 23:13, Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear colleagues, The ?abdakalpadruma contains quite a number of citations with attributions like bharatadh?taha??acandra?, bharatadh?tavy??i?, bharatadh?ta?abd?r?ava?, bharatadh?taratnako?a?, etc. I suspect that these may be taken from the works of Bharatasena alias Bharatamallika. (I am unable to check at this time whether there is explanation of this matter in the ?abdakalpadruma itself.) And I would like to be able to track down the source texts. If anyone can share any e-texts of any of the works of this apparently prolific 17th-c. author, I'd be very grateful. There is an elaborate entry concerning him in NCC 16, and also at https://panditproject.org/entity/40418/person. Related to the above: can anyone help me with a pdf of the following? D. C. Bhattacharya, "Bharatamallika and his Patron." IHQ XVIII-2. 1942, pp. 168-79. Thanks a lot. Arlo Griffiths _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From finn.mooregerety at ames.ox.ac.uk Mon Aug 18 15:59:42 2025 From: finn.mooregerety at ames.ox.ac.uk (Finn Moore Gerety) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2025 15:59:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Following up on Steven Lindquist?s mention of Robert Yelle?s excellent 2003 book, let me add another publication by Yelle, which is very much on-point for this discussion in that it delves into Protestant critiques of mantras in the colonial era. See below. Finn ? ?Vain Repetitions?: The Attack on Hindu Mantras? Ch. 5 in: Yelle, Robert. 2013. The Language of Disenchantment: Protestant Literalism and Colonial Discourse in British India. Oxford: Oxford University Press. From: Finn Moore Gerety Date: Sunday, 17 August 2025 at 16:56 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Dear all? Thanks to those who have replied with fascinating information, both on- an off-list. To judge from my very unscientific sample so far, it seems that Orientalists by and large were more even-handed in their assessments of mantras that I had assumed they would be. One of the few negative statements I?ve found so far (thanks to John Nemec) is from Monier-Williams?see below. Yours, Finn Monier-Williams on mantras in Durga puja, Brahmanism and Hinduism p198: ?To us it may seem extraordinary that intelligent persons can give credence to such absurdities, or lend themselves to the practice of superstitions so senseless; but we must bear in mind that with may Hind? thinkers the notion of the eternity of sound?as propounded in Pata?jali?s Mah?bh?shya (I.1.1) and in the P?rva-m?m??s? of Jaimini?is by no means an irrational doctrine?? From: Lindquist, Steven Date: Saturday, 16 August 2025 at 18:46 To: Finn Moore Gerety , indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Robert Yelle has written on this, perhaps articles as well (but I'm away from my files so can't verify). See his: Explaining Mantras Ritual, Rhetoric, and the Dream of a Natural Language in Hindu Tantra (Routledge, 2003) Steven Lindquist Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Finn Moore Gerety via INDOLOGY Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2025 8:33:38 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Early Orientalist attitudes towards mantras Dear colleagues? I?m trying to substantiate my vague impression that some 19th-century Orientalists denigrated Sanskrit mantras as mumbo-jumbo and nonsense. I wonder if anyone on this list can point me to direct quotations or historiographic discussions of this. To be clear, I?m interested in early Orientalist discourse on mantras in particular?not critiques of other Sanskrit genres such as Vedic prose (? la Max M?ller?s notorious ?twaddle? quotation). Thanks in advance, Finn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 17:54:30 2025 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2025 19:54:30 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the critical edition of the *Mok?op?ya*, including the *Khila*s (also known as *N?n?pra?na*), has recently been completed: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_Textedition_Teil_7_Das_Sechste_Buch%3A_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87aprakara%E1%B9%87a_Teil_3%3A_Kapitel_253%E2%80%93374_und_Nachtragskapitel_1%E2%80%9314/titel_8451.ahtml The present volume is the third volume of the *Nirv??aprakara?a* and contains 4,990 verses distributed across 122 sargas. These verses cover chapters VI.253?374 of the *Mok?op?ya*. Along with the additional 602 verses of the *Khila*s in 14 chapters, the volume contains a total of 5,592 verses newly edited from manuscripts. The complete *Nirv??aprakara?a* thus comprises more than half of the *Mok?op?ya*'s total text (30,040 verses). Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century *Mok?op?ya* from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta or anyone else's Ved?nta, but instead advocates a unique, consciousness-only ontology (*cid-advaita*). It is written in a delightful alternation of philosophical Sanskrit and classical *k?vya* style. Not to mention the spirited stories employed by the anonymous author as *d????nta*s to exemplify the intricacies of his philosophy. Below is an overview of all the 13 volumes published so far (Sanskrit edition, partial German translation, Commentary and Concordance): https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/reihenwerk_455.ahtml Kindly regarding, WS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Thu Aug 21 00:12:10 2025 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 02:12:10 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?25_Years_of_Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_Studies?= Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would like to bring a new publication to your attention: * * * 25 Years of Mok?op?ya Studies. Edited by J?rgen Hanneder. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz Verlag 2025 (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz. Ver?ffentlichungen der F?chergruppenkommission f?r Au?ereurop?ische Sprachen und Kulturen.tudien zur Indologie 10). 207 pp. ISBN 978-3-447-12351-8 https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/25_Years_of_Mok?op?ya_Studies/titel_8454.ahtml A quarter of a century has passed since Walter Slaje demonstrated the importance of the Kashmirian recension of the text that was printed and popularly known under the name Yogav?si??ha. As it turned out the text originally bore the title Mok?op?ya, but became known to the rest of the Indian subcontinent in an abridged version simply called V?si??ha. In Kashmir, the original, written in the 10th century, remained the standard version, but was ignored. The project of editing the Mok?op?ya has now been completed ? the final volume will be published shortly ? and in this context a small symposium was held in Marburg to mark this date. Some of the lectures given there are reproduced in this publication: Walter Slaje deals with the term ?Yoga? in Yogav?si??ha, Roland Steiner analyses the story of Prahl?da, and J?rgen Hanneder writes on liberation, the story of the meditating monk and the summaries of the text. In Eric Steinschneider?s analysis of the Tamil transformation of the V?si??ha, the reader can also catch a glimpse of what has become possible through the Mok?op?ya project when specialists of further disciplines follow the text into new languages and contexts. Table of Contents: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/ddo/artikel/88593/978-3-447-12351-8_Table%20of%20Contents.pdf * * * Kindly regarding, Roland Steiner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arlogriffiths at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 00:16:17 2025 From: arlogriffiths at hotmail.com (Arlo Griffiths) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 00:16:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?=C5=9Aabdakalpadruma?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Perhaps some will benefit from my sharing useful information received off-list from the following colleagues in response to my recent query. 1. From Charles Li: https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/search?filter=volumes%3A%22bsb10219717%2FBV001653109%22? complete digital representation on the Bavarian State Library's digital books portal of the original Bengali-script edition of the ?abdakalpadruma, with dates associated to each volume, allowing me to determine that the 8 volumes were published between 1821 and 1858. Charles also reports that he had collated some bits from this Bengali edition with a reprint of the 1886 Devanagari edition, and found that it "contains a number of variant readings that may have been deliberate emendations." For example, here: https://tst-project.github.io/siberupakhyana/Ed.xml. In verse 2, the Bengali edition (Vp?) has hari?yen?t pura?sara?, and the Devanagari edition (Vp?2) has hari?yenapura?sara?. In verse 11, Vp? has tam uts?ja, and Vp?2 has tvam utsrja. etc., etc. 1. From Sudipta Munsi: * Sarma, Taracharan. 1867. R?dh?k?nta-nr?pate? caritra-?ataka?. Calcutta: Girish Bidyaratna Jantra. [http://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.8052]. * Sengupta, Syamalendu. 1990. A Conservative Intellectual of Colonial India: Raja Radhakanta Deb and His Milieu (1774-1867). New Delhi: Navrang. [http://archive.org/details/a-conservative-intellectual-of-colonial-india-syamalendu-dasgupta.pdf-filename-u]. 1. From Peter Wyzlic: * in Munich we also find a publication on R?dhak?nta Deva with the title: "A rapid sketch of the life of Raja Radhakanta Deva Bahadur, with some notices of his ancestors and testimonials of his character and learning by the editors of the Raja's Sabdakalpadruma", Calcutta 1859. Link: . The same is also in Google Books: . * Robert Lenz published a report on the ?abdakalpadruma in 1835: Lenz, R.: Account of the Sabda kalpa druma: a Sanskrit encyclopaedical lexicon, published in Calcutta by R?dh?k?nta Deva, in: Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 2, 1835, p. 188-200. Links: or Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, August 18, 2025 4:07 AM To: INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] ?abdakalpadruma Dear colleagues, Is there any source to which I can turn for understanding the publication history (including chronology and relationship between Bengali-script and Devanagari-script editions) of Raja Radhakanta Deva's ?abdakalpadruma? I have not found much better than these items in English, Hindi and Spanish: https://en.banglapedia.org/index.php/Shabdakalpadruma https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%AE ????????????? - ?????????? ???? ????????????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??- ????, ? ? ... hi.wikipedia.org https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabda_Kalpadruma There is also a wikipedia page in Bengali that I have not yet tried to read. I have not yet found digital versions of any edition of volume 1 predating 1875, and yet all the above sources claim that publication started decades earlier. They never specify in which script. Thanks for any pointers! Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Thu Aug 21 07:33:35 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 07:33:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?=C5=9Aabdakalpadruma?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Arlo, All thanks for this generous gesture. Amiti?s, Lyne Envoy? ? partir de Outlook pour iOS ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY de la part de Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY Envoy? : Thursday, August 21, 2025 3:16:17 AM ? : INDOLOGY Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] ?abdakalpadruma Dear colleagues, Perhaps some will benefit from my sharing useful information received off-list from the following colleagues in response to my recent query. 1. From Charles Li: https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/search?filter=volumes%3A%22bsb10219717%2FBV001653109%22? complete digital representation on the Bavarian State Library's digital books portal of the original Bengali-script edition of the ?abdakalpadruma, with dates associated to each volume, allowing me to determine that the 8 volumes were published between 1821 and 1858. Charles also reports that he had collated some bits from this Bengali edition with a reprint of the 1886 Devanagari edition, and found that it "contains a number of variant readings that may have been deliberate emendations." For example, here: https://tst-project.github.io/siberupakhyana/Ed.xml. In verse 2, the Bengali edition (Vp?) has hari?yen?t pura?sara?, and the Devanagari edition (Vp?2) has hari?yenapura?sara?. In verse 11, Vp? has tam uts?ja, and Vp?2 has tvam utsrja. etc., etc. 1. From Sudipta Munsi: * Sarma, Taracharan. 1867. R?dh?k?nta-nr?pate? caritra-?ataka?. Calcutta: Girish Bidyaratna Jantra. [http://archive.org/details/dli.bengal.10689.8052]. * Sengupta, Syamalendu. 1990. A Conservative Intellectual of Colonial India: Raja Radhakanta Deb and His Milieu (1774-1867). New Delhi: Navrang. [http://archive.org/details/a-conservative-intellectual-of-colonial-india-syamalendu-dasgupta.pdf-filename-u]. 1. From Peter Wyzlic: * in Munich we also find a publication on R?dhak?nta Deva with the title: "A rapid sketch of the life of Raja Radhakanta Deva Bahadur, with some notices of his ancestors and testimonials of his character and learning by the editors of the Raja's Sabdakalpadruma", Calcutta 1859. Link: . The same is also in Google Books: . * Robert Lenz published a report on the ?abdakalpadruma in 1835: Lenz, R.: Account of the Sabda kalpa druma: a Sanskrit encyclopaedical lexicon, published in Calcutta by R?dh?k?nta Deva, in: Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 2, 1835, p. 188-200. Links: or Best wishes, Arlo Griffiths ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Arlo Griffiths via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, August 18, 2025 4:07 AM To: INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] ?abdakalpadruma Dear colleagues, Is there any source to which I can turn for understanding the publication history (including chronology and relationship between Bengali-script and Devanagari-script editions) of Raja Radhakanta Deva's ?abdakalpadruma? I have not found much better than these items in English, Hindi and Spanish: https://en.banglapedia.org/index.php/Shabdakalpadruma https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%AC%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A6%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%81%E0%A4%AE ????????????? - ?????????? ???? ????????????? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??- ????, ? ? ... hi.wikipedia.org https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabda_Kalpadruma There is also a wikipedia page in Bengali that I have not yet tried to read. I have not yet found digital versions of any edition of volume 1 predating 1875, and yet all the above sources claim that publication started decades earlier. They never specify in which script. Thanks for any pointers! Arlo Griffiths -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Thu Aug 21 08:30:33 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 08:30:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Colleague, Congratulations for this very impressive work and its much awaited publication. Best wishes, Lyne ________________________________ De : INDOLOGY de la part de Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY Envoy? : mardi 19 ao?t 2025 19:54 ? : Indology Objet : [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear Colleagues, It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the critical edition of the Mok?op?ya, including the Khilas (also known as N?n?pra?na), has recently been completed: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_Textedition_Teil_7_Das_Sechste_Buch%3A_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87aprakara%E1%B9%87a_Teil_3%3A_Kapitel_253%E2%80%93374_und_Nachtragskapitel_1%E2%80%9314/titel_8451.ahtml The present volume is the third volume of the Nirv??aprakara?a and contains 4,990 verses distributed across 122 sargas. These verses cover chapters VI.253?374 of the Mok?op?ya. Along with the additional 602 verses of the Khilas in 14 chapters, the volume contains a total of 5,592 verses newly edited from manuscripts. The complete Nirv??aprakara?a thus comprises more than half of the Mok?op?ya's total text (30,040 verses). Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta or anyone else's Ved?nta, but instead advocates a unique, consciousness-only ontology (cid-advaita). It is written in a delightful alternation of philosophical Sanskrit and classical k?vya style. Not to mention the spirited stories employed by the anonymous author as d????ntas to exemplify the intricacies of his philosophy. Below is an overview of all the 13 volumes published so far (Sanskrit edition, partial German translation, Commentary and Concordance): https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/reihenwerk_455.ahtml Kindly regarding, WS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 13:58:46 2025 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 09:58:46 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Walter, My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. You wrote: > > Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century *Mok?op?ya* > from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it Thu Aug 21 15:53:04 2025 From: raffaele.torella at uniroma1.it (Raffaele Torella) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 17:53:04 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last year, when an Italian magazine asked me to list the major achievements of contemporary Indology, I mentioned, among few others, the Mok?op?ya project (including the edition of the fragments of Bh?skara??ha?s T?k? thereon) led by Walter Slaje (with Roland Steiner and Juergen Hanneder, and others). (Another was the project ?(Buddhist) Sanskrit texts from the Tibetan Autonomous Region?, promoted by Ernst Steinkellner.) My warmest congratulations! Raffaele Torella > Il giorno 19 ago 2025, alle ore 19:54, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY ha scritto: > > Dear Colleagues, > > It gives me great pleasure to inform you that the critical edition of the Mok?op?ya, including the Khilas (also known as N?n?pra?na), has recently been completed: > https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Mok%E1%B9%A3op%C4%81ya_-_Textedition_Teil_7_Das_Sechste_Buch%3A_Nirv%C4%81%E1%B9%87aprakara%E1%B9%87a_Teil_3%3A_Kapitel_253%E2%80%93374_und_Nachtragskapitel_1%E2%80%9314/titel_8451.ahtml > > The present volume is the third volume of the Nirv??aprakara?a and contains 4,990 verses distributed across 122 sargas. These verses cover chapters VI.253?374 of the Mok?op?ya. Along with the additional 602 verses of the Khilas in 14 chapters, the volume contains a total of 5,592 verses newly edited from manuscripts. The complete Nirv??aprakara?a thus comprises more than half of the Mok?op?ya's total text (30,040 verses). > > Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta or anyone else's Ved?nta, but instead advocates a unique, consciousness-only ontology (cid-advaita). It is written in a delightful alternation of philosophical Sanskrit and classical k?vya style. Not to mention the spirited stories employed by the anonymous author as d????ntas to exemplify the intricacies of his philosophy. > > Below is an overview of all the 13 volumes published so far (Sanskrit edition, partial German translation, Commentary and Concordance): > https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/reihenwerk_455.ahtml > > > Kindly regarding, > WS > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://www.google.com/url?q=https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology&source=gmail-imap&ust=1756230945000000&usg=AOvVaw0DXSARvYKk4PuyUwzoXrLR Prof. Raffaele Torella Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit Sapienza University of Rome wwwuniroma1.academia.edu/raffaeletorella -- *Fai crescere le giovani ricercatrici e i giovani ricercatori*** *con il? 5?per?mille?alla Sapienza* Scrivi il codice fiscale dell'Universit?? *80209930587 **Cinque?per?mille * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 17:12:17 2025 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 19:12:17 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Harry, > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (*khy?ti *[Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the *?tmakhy?ti *of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (*?ilop?khy?na*, VI.32511?40). Regards, Walter Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier < vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>: > Dear Walter, > > My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. > > You wrote: > >> >> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century >> *Mok?op?ya* from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's >> Advaitaved?nta . . . >> > > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th > century Kashmir? > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwn3y at virginia.edu Thu Aug 21 18:18:56 2025 From: jwn3y at virginia.edu (Nemec, John William (jwn3y)) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 18:18:56 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Harry, Walter, and All, Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. Food for thought. As Ever, John ___________________________________________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Department of Religious Studies 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 +1 (434) 924-6716 nemec at virginia.edu https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec Take a look at my new book: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM To: Harry Spier Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear Harry, > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). Regards, Walter Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier >: Dear Walter, My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. You wrote: Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2021_Vedantic_Analogies_Expressing_Onene (1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 338917 bytes Desc: 2021_Vedantic_Analogies_Expressing_Onene (1).pdf URL: From scharfpm7 at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 21:13:03 2025 From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 16:13:03 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Sanskrit Library's autumn courses Message-ID: <080C75BC-431C-4CBC-B650-D6E2AF88AF00@gmail.com> Dear Colleagues, The Sanskrit Library would like to announce its autumn Sanskrit courses. US101. Introductory Sanskrit I will begin Monday, 8 September. US110. ??????????????????: The ??????? in brief will begin Sunday, 7 September. US201. Selected readings in the Siddha?ntakaumudi? continues and can be joined by advanced students. UT102. Character and higher-level encoding is scheduled to begin 13 September to train Sanskrit students and advanced scholars in preparing navigable searchable digital editions of printed Sanskrit texts. UT110. TEI-conformant XML markup workshop guides those who have completed UT102 or otherwise have basic competency in TEI in preparing a TEI edition of a Sanskrit text. For information about the these courses follow the link: https://sanskritlibrary.org/coursesnow.html To inquire about consulting on individual research projects, send an email to info at sanskritlibrary dot org For information about our publications, please visit https://sanskritlibrary.org/publications.html. Submit an article for publication in our journal ????????? here: https://sites.google.com/sanskritlibrary.org/courses/research-journal Please donate to The Sanskrit Library here: https://sanskritlibrary.org/donate.html Yours sincerely, Peter ****************************** Peter M. Scharf, President The Sanskrit Library scharf at sanskritlibrary.org ****************************** scharfpm7 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in Thu Aug 21 22:38:42 2025 From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2025 23:38:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmapratip?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va? ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. Yours, Alex -- Alex Watson Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson * On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Harry, Walter, and All, > > Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant > article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. > > See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) > might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this > time. > > Food for thought. > > As Ever, > John > > ___________________________________________ > John Nemec, Ph.D. > Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies > Department of Religious Studies > 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue > University of Virginia > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > +1 (434) 924-6716 > nemec at virginia.edu > https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec > > Take a look at my new book: > > https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM > *To:* Harry Spier > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > Dear Harry, > > > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th > century Kashmir? > To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. > Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. > Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error > (*khy?ti *[Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current > volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the *?tmakhy?ti > *of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable > to illustrate his point (*?ilop?khy?na*, VI.32511?40). > > Regards, > Walter > > > Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier < > vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>: > > Dear Walter, > > My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. > > You wrote: > > > Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century *Mok?op?ya* > from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . > > > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th > century Kashmir? > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > * * -- *Confidentiality Notice:* This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently.?Thank?you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Veda?nta.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 391940 bytes Desc: not available URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 05:27:48 2025 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 07:27:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Alex and John, > Food for thought You said it! On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) More food for thought? Yours, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson < alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in>: > Dear All > > 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis > (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. > > 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he > wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri > shared by John Nemec) reads: > ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our > period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. > To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of > ?a?kara.? > To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra > rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages > in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. > The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the > time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that > text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in > that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of > ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. > > 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for > familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): > > Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): > nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma > nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. > > ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): > api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmapratip?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. > > (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va? > > ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times > in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s > k?rik??. > > This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third > source. > > Yours, > Alex > -- > Alex Watson > Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy > Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University > *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson > * > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Harry, Walter, and All, >> >> Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant >> article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. >> >> See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) >> might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this >> time. >> >> Food for thought. >> >> As Ever, >> John >> >> ___________________________________________ >> John Nemec, Ph.D. >> Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies >> Department of Religious Studies >> 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue >> University of Virginia >> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >> +1 (434) 924-6716 >> nemec at virginia.edu >> https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec >> >> Take a look at my new book: >> >> https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM >> *To:* Harry Spier >> *Cc:* Indology >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >> >> Dear Harry, >> >> > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th >> century Kashmir? >> To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. >> Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. >> Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error >> (*khy?ti *[Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current >> volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the *?tmakhy?ti >> *of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a >> parable to illustrate his point (*?ilop?khy?na*, VI.32511?40). >> >> Regards, >> Walter >> >> >> Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier < >> vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>: >> >> Dear Walter, >> >> My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. >> >> You wrote: >> >> >> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century >> *Mok?op?ya* from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's >> Advaitaved?nta . . . >> >> >> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th >> century Kashmir? >> >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > > * * > > ------------------------------ > *Confidentiality Notice:* This email and any attachments may contain > confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then > delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 06:55:19 2025 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 08:55:19 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] All the best, WS Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: > Dear Alex and John, > > > Food for thought > > You said it! > > > On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings > were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played > a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass > in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers > sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual > presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either > barely known or more or less ignored. > > > However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- > and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason > would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its > Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed > critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was > he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) > > More food for thought? > > Yours, > Walter > > Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson < > alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in>: > >> Dear All >> >> 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to >> Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the >> attachment. >> >> 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he >> wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri >> shared by John Nemec) reads: >> ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our >> period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. >> To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of >> ?a?kara.? >> To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra >> rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages >> in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. >> The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the >> time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that >> text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in >> that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of >> ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. >> >> 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence >> for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): >> >> Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): >> nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma >> nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. >> >> ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): >> api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmapratip?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. >> >> (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va? >> >> ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times >> in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s >> k?rik??. >> >> This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third >> source. >> >> Yours, >> Alex >> -- >> Alex Watson >> Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy >> Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University >> *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >> * >> >> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Harry, Walter, and All, >>> >>> Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant >>> article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. >>> >>> See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) >>> might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this >>> time. >>> >>> Food for thought. >>> >>> As Ever, >>> John >>> >>> ___________________________________________ >>> John Nemec, Ph.D. >>> Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies >>> Department of Religious Studies >>> 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue >>> University of Virginia >>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>> +1 (434) 924-6716 >>> nemec at virginia.edu >>> https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec >>> >>> Take a look at my new book: >>> >>> https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >>> Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY >>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM >>> *To:* Harry Spier >>> *Cc:* Indology >>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>> >>> Dear Harry, >>> >>> > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th >>> century Kashmir? >>> To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. >>> Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. >>> Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error >>> (*khy?ti *[Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current >>> volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the *?tmakhy?ti >>> *of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a >>> parable to illustrate his point (*?ilop?khy?na*, VI.32511?40). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Walter >>> >>> >>> Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier < >>> vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>: >>> >>> Dear Walter, >>> >>> My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. >>> >>> You wrote: >>> >>> >>> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century >>> *Mok?op?ya* from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's >>> Advaitaved?nta . . . >>> >>> >>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th >>> century Kashmir? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> >> >> * * >> >> ------------------------------ >> *Confidentiality Notice:* This email and any attachments may contain >> confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then >> delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Kato 2014 A note on the Kashmirian Recension.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 171840 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 22 09:32:44 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 09:32:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. best, Matthew On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <[indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < wrote: > [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: > Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] > > All the best, > WS > > Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: > >> Dear Alex and John, >> >>> Food for thought >> >> You said it! >> >> On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. >> >> However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) >> >> More food for thought? >> >> Yours, >> Walter >> >> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson : >> >>> Dear All >>> >>> 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. >>> >>> 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: >>> ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? >>> To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. >>> >>> 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): >>> >>> Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): >>> nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. >>> >>> ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): >>> api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. >>> >>> (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? >>> >>> ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. >>> >>> This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. >>> >>> Yours, >>> Alex >>> -- >>> >>> Alex Watson >>> Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy >>> Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University >>> >>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Harry, Walter, and All, >>>> >>>> Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. >>>> >>>> See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. >>>> >>>> Food for thought. >>>> >>>> As Ever, >>>> John >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _____________ >>>> John Nemec, Ph.D. >>>> Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies >>>> Department of Religious Studies >>>> 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue >>>> University of Virginia >>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>>> +1 (434) 924-6716 >>>> nemec at virginia.edu >>>> https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec >>>> >>>> Take a look at my new book: >>>> https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM >>>> To: Harry Spier >>>> Cc: Indology >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>>> >>>> Dear Harry, >>>> >>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>> >>>> To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Walter >>>> >>>> Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier : >>>> >>>>> Dear Walter, >>>>> >>>>> My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. >>>>> >>>>> You wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . >>>>> >>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Harry Spier >>>> >>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri Aug 22 11:06:35 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:06:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Matthew, I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the causal) Brahman. Yours, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University DUS, South Asian Studies ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM To: Walter Slaje Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear all, If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. best, Matthew On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > wrote: [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] All the best, WS Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: Dear Alex and John, > Food for thought You said it! On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) More food for thought? Yours, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson >: Dear All 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. Yours, Alex -- Alex Watson Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Harry, Walter, and All, Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. Food for thought. As Ever, John ______________________________ _____________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Department of Religious Studies 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 +1 (434) 924-6716 nemec at virginia.edu https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec Take a look at my new book: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM To: Harry Spier > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear Harry, > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). Regards, Walter Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier >: Dear Walter, My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. You wrote: Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? Thanks, Harry Spier ______________________________ _________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jineshsheth at philosophy.mu.ac.in Fri Aug 22 12:23:17 2025 From: jineshsheth at philosophy.mu.ac.in (Jinesh Sheth) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 13:23:17 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Workshop_=E2=80=9CHistory=2C_Scripture_and_?= =?utf-8?q?Debate=3A_Studies_in_South_Asia_in_Memory_of_Paul_Dundas?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=9D=2C_12-14_September_2025=2C_University_of_Birmi?= =?utf-8?q?ngham?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, Following the workshop in memory of Paul Dundas, as mentioned earlier, I would like to announce and invite you to join, in-person or online, for a symposium on "(Non-)One-sidedness" on Monday, 15th September, at the University of Birmingham, UK. This symposium aims to explore themes connected to one-sidedness, *nayas, anek?ntav?da*, and related topics. Kindly find attached herewith the flyer and schedule for the event. All are welcome! For those who might be able to join in-person, kindly write to me at j.sheth at bham.ac.uk. For online participation, kindly register here: https://bham-ac-uk.zoom.us/meeting/register/MIqwvqteS-6MCFBb_shYoQ. I look forward to seeing some of you in-person or online! Thanking you, Jinesh Jinesh R. Sheth Dharmanath Postdoctoral Fellow in Jain Studies Department of Philosophy School of Philosophy, Theology and Religion University of Birmingham On Tue, Aug 5, 2025 at 3:52?PM Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, dear friends, > > > > I am happy to announce that the workshop *History, Scripture and Debate: > Studies in South Asia in Memory of Paul Dundas* will be held on *12-14 > September* 2025 at the *University of Birmingham*, where Paul?s library > was donated. > > > > This workshop will gather scholars, mainly but not necessarily in Jain > Studies, who interacted with Paul in a meaningful way. > > All are wellcome! > > In case you wish to attend, thanks for sending me (m.gorisse at bham.ac.uk) > a line in advance for (vegetarian and vegan) catering purpose. > > > > Note that on September 15, this event will be followed by a one-day > symposium on ?(Non-)One-sidedness?, organised by Jinesh Sheth (more details > soon). > > > > Looking forwards to seing some of you at this occasion! > > > > With all best regards, > > > > Marie-H?l?ne > > -- > Marie-H?l?ne Gorisse > > Dharmanath Assistant Professor in Jain Studies > School of Philosophy, Theology and Religion > University of Birmingham > https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/tr/gorisse-marie-helene > https://globalphilosophyofreligion.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: (Non-)One-sidedness_15th Sept_Flyer and Schedule.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 710536 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 22 12:23:28 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 12:23:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I recall correctly, it is in the Tarkajv?la commentary, not the k?rik?. You can check O. Qvarnstrom?s translation. If not there, then my memory is fooling me. M On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar <[aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu](mailto:On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar < wrote: > Dear Matthew, > > I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the causal) Brahman. > > Yours, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University > > DUS, South Asian Studies > > ????[The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction](https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Brahma-sutra-Introduction-Introductions-Philosophies/dp/1350150002/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=) > > Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM > To: Walter Slaje > Cc: Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > Dear all, > > If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. > > And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. > > best, > Matthew > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < [indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < wrote: > >> [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: >> Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] >> >> All the best, >> WS >> >> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: >> >>> Dear Alex and John, >>> >>>> Food for thought >>> >>> You said it! >>> >>> On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. >>> >>> However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) >>> >>> More food for thought? >>> >>> Yours, >>> Walter >>> >>> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson : >>> >>>> Dear All >>>> >>>> 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. >>>> >>>> 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: >>>> ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? >>>> To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. >>>> >>>> 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): >>>> >>>> Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): >>>> nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. >>>> >>>> ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): >>>> api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. >>>> >>>> (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? >>>> >>>> ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. >>>> >>>> This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Alex >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Alex Watson >>>> Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy >>>> Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University >>>> >>>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Harry, Walter, and All, >>>>> >>>>> Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his [academia.edu](http://academia.edu/) page and attach it here. >>>>> >>>>> See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. >>>>> >>>>> Food for thought. >>>>> >>>>> As Ever, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _____________ >>>>> John Nemec, Ph.D. >>>>> Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies >>>>> Department of Religious Studies >>>>> 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue >>>>> University of Virginia >>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>>>> +1 (434) 924-6716 >>>>> nemec at virginia.edu >>>>> https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec >>>>> >>>>> Take a look at my new book: >>>>> https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY >>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM >>>>> To: Harry Spier >>>>> Cc: Indology >>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>>>> >>>>> Dear Harry, >>>>> >>>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Walter >>>>> >>>>> Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier : >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Walter, >>>>>> >>>>>> My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. >>>>>> >>>>>> You wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . >>>>>> >>>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Harry Spier >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri Aug 22 12:27:23 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 12:27:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, I was checking Qvarnstrom, will look in more detail. Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University DUS, South Asian Studies ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: Matthew Kapstein Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 8:23 AM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar Cc: Walter Slaje ; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed If I recall correctly, it is in the Tarkajv?la commentary, not the k?rik?. You can check O. Qvarnstrom?s translation. If not there, then my memory is fooling me. M On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar > wrote: Dear Matthew, I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the causal) Brahman. Yours, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University DUS, South Asian Studies ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM To: Walter Slaje Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear all, If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. best, Matthew On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] All the best, WS Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: Dear Alex and John, > Food for thought You said it! On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) More food for thought? Yours, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson >: Dear All 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. Yours, Alex -- Alex Watson Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Harry, Walter, and All, Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. Food for thought. As Ever, John ______________________________ _____________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Department of Religious Studies 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 +1 (434) 924-6716 nemec at virginia.edu https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec Take a look at my new book: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM To: Harry Spier > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear Harry, > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). Regards, Walter Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier >: Dear Walter, My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. You wrote: Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? Thanks, Harry Spier ______________________________ _________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Fri Aug 22 13:21:45 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 13:21:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, All thanks for this very interesting discussion. I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta on the Kashmirian Gi?ta?. Announcement of the First Critical Edition of the Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, with the Reconstruction of the Text of the Kashmirian Gi?ta? [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in Journal of Indian Philosophy (46.1: 31-64). Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. Best wishes, Lyne NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Abhinavagupta_on_the_Kashmirian_Gita.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 599573 bytes Desc: Abhinavagupta_on_the_Kashmirian_Gita.pdf URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri Aug 22 13:53:55 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 13:53:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Lyne, Thank you for sending this very interesting paper. Has the edition announced there been published? Best, Aleksandar Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 9:21:45 AM To: Matthew Kapstein Cc: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Moks?opa?ya completed Dear colleagues, All thanks for this very interesting discussion. I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta on the Kashmirian Gi?ta?. Announcement of the First Critical Edition of the Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, with the Reconstruction of the Text of the Kashmirian Gi?ta? [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in Journal of Indian Philosophy (46.1: 31-64). Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. Best wishes, Lyne NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Fri Aug 22 14:09:17 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 14:09:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Alexsandar, Unfortunately not! It will require some more time. It is a lengthy task, as it is a laborious and meticulous process that also requires us to systematically compare the Kashmiri version with the Vulgate. Best wishes, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : Uskokov, Aleksandar Envoy? : vendredi 22 ao?t 2025 15:53 ? : Lyne Bansat-Boudon ; Matthew Kapstein Cc : Indology List Objet : Re: Moks?opa?ya completed Dear Lyne, Thank you for sending this very interesting paper. Has the edition announced there been published? Best, Aleksandar Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 9:21:45 AM To: Matthew Kapstein Cc: Indology List Subject: [INDOLOGY] Moks?opa?ya completed Dear colleagues, All thanks for this very interesting discussion. I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta on the Kashmirian Gi?ta?. Announcement of the First Critical Edition of the Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, with the Reconstruction of the Text of the Kashmirian Gi?ta? [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in Journal of Indian Philosophy (46.1: 31-64). Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. Best wishes, Lyne NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 16:25:40 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 10:25:40 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [arks] some n2t.net In-Reply-To: <39ec0616-7620-42f9-9a68-a639ced196d2n@googlegroups.com> References: <39ec0616-7620-42f9-9a68-a639ced196d2n@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: I routinely use n2t.net to resolve ARK references to items in archive.org and elsewhere. But today I'm finding many of these calls don't work, and instead get sent to ezid.cdlib.org, where they fail. E.g., - https://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t75t8vp2v gives an error message. [image: Screenshot from 2025-08-22 09-46-56.png] I hope this matter will be resolved soon (see what I did there). Meanwhile, if you're stuck, the resolver http://ark.archive.org works fine. So, for the above ark, it would be http://ark.archive.org/ark:/13960/t75t8vp2v. If you don't know what any of this is about, I envy you. Best, Dominik Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY list committee member *Please do not reply to me personally: re*ply to indology-owner at list.indology.info -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot from 2025-08-22 09-46-56.png Type: image/png Size: 23214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 22 17:06:29 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 17:06:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As I am now traveling, I do not have the materials with me to check exactly what's found in the Tarkajv?l?, but in one of my articles that I was able to access, we have a paraphrase of the passage in a 12th c. Tibetan author: "[Ved?nta] holds that all of these inner and outer entities are of the nature of a single great Self (mah?tma ). The upper regions are its head, the lower regions its feet, the sky its back, the directions its hands, the planets and constellations its hair, the peaks its breast, the mountain ranges its bones, the rivers its network of veins, the forests its body hairs and nails; its back is the celes- tial world, its forehead Brahm?, Dharma and Adharma are its two brows; its wrathful grimace is Yama, the sun and moon its eyes, its inhalations and exhalations the winds..." It was the first sentence that I had in mind. Although clearly referring to a type of advaita doctrine, it does not mention saccid?nanda, though perhaps the Tarkajv?la has more to say. The citation is from : 2009 ?Preliminary remarks on the Grub mtha? chen mo of Bya ?Chad kha ba Ye shes rdo rje,? in Sanskrit Manuscripts in China, ed. Ernst Steinkellner. Beijing: China Tibetology Publishing House, pp. 137-152. Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Professor emeritus Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris Associate The University of Chicago Divinity School Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. On Friday, August 22nd, 2025 at 2:27 PM, Uskokov, Aleksandar wrote: > Thank you, I was checking Qvarnstrom, will look in more detail. > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University > > DUS, South Asian Studies > > ????[The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction](https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Brahma-sutra-Introduction-Introductions-Philosophies/dp/1350150002?_encoding=UTF8) > > Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Matthew Kapstein > Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 8:23 AM > To: Uskokov, Aleksandar > Cc: Walter Slaje ; Indology List > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > If I recall correctly, it is in the Tarkajv?la commentary, not the k?rik?. You can check O. Qvarnstrom?s translation. If not there, then my memory is fooling me. > M > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar <[aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu](mailto:On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar < wrote: > >> Dear Matthew, >> >> I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the causal) Brahman. >> >> Yours, >> Aleksandar >> >> Aleksandar Uskokov >> >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >> >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University >> >> DUS, South Asian Studies >> >> ????[The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction](https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Brahma-sutra-Introduction-Introductions-Philosophies/dp/1350150002?_encoding=UTF8) >> >> Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM >> To: Walter Slaje >> Cc: Indology List >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >> >> Dear all, >> >> If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. >> >> And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. >> >> best, >> Matthew >> >> On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < [indology at list.indology.info](mailto:On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < wrote: >> >>> [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: >>> Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] >>> >>> All the best, >>> WS >>> >>> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: >>> >>>> Dear Alex and John, >>>> >>>>> Food for thought >>>> >>>> You said it! >>>> >>>> On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. >>>> >>>> However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) >>>> >>>> More food for thought? >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Walter >>>> >>>> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson : >>>> >>>>> Dear All >>>>> >>>>> 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. >>>>> >>>>> 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: >>>>> ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? >>>>> To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. >>>>> >>>>> 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): >>>>> >>>>> Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): >>>>> nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. >>>>> >>>>> ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): >>>>> api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. >>>>> >>>>> (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? >>>>> >>>>> ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. >>>>> >>>>> This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Alex >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Alex Watson >>>>> Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy >>>>> Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University >>>>> >>>>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Harry, Walter, and All, >>>>>> >>>>>> Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his [academia.edu](http://academia.edu/) page and attach it here. >>>>>> >>>>>> See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. >>>>>> >>>>>> Food for thought. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Ever, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________ _____________ >>>>>> John Nemec, Ph.D. >>>>>> Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies >>>>>> Department of Religious Studies >>>>>> 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue >>>>>> University of Virginia >>>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>>>>> +1 (434) 924-6716 >>>>>> nemec at virginia.edu >>>>>> https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec >>>>>> >>>>>> Take a look at my new book: >>>>>> https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM >>>>>> To: Harry Spier >>>>>> Cc: Indology >>>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Harry, >>>>>> >>>>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>>> >>>>>> To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Walter >>>>>> >>>>>> Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier : >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Walter, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Harry Spier >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri Aug 22 17:26:48 2025 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 17:26:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Matthew. Apropos your observation that you haven't encountered any classical Buddhist reference to ?a?kara, and since we seem to be all sharing Bh?skara papers today, I attach Hajime Nakamura's "Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin, in Buddhist Literature," who notes that Bh?skara seems to have been the representative Ved?ntin for Buddhists. It would seem that for a good while ?a?kara is deeply buried in the South and largely unknown outside Ved?ntic circles even after the Bh?mat?. Which is why Alex's reference to the Ny?ya-ma?jar? is so exciting ?. Yours, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University DUS, South Asian Studies ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: Matthew Kapstein Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 1:06 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar Cc: Walter Slaje ; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed As I am now traveling, I do not have the materials with me to check exactly what's found in the Tarkajv?l?, but in one of my articles that I was able to access, we have a paraphrase of the passage in a 12th c. Tibetan author: "[Ved?nta] holds that all of these inner and outer entities are of the nature of a single great Self (mah?tma ). The upper regions are its head, the lower regions its feet, the sky its back, the directions its hands, the planets and constellations its hair, the peaks its breast, the mountain ranges its bones, the rivers its network of veins, the forests its body hairs and nails; its back is the celes- tial world, its forehead Brahm?, Dharma and Adharma are its two brows; its wrathful grimace is Yama, the sun and moon its eyes, its inhalations and exhalations the winds..." It was the first sentence that I had in mind. Although clearly referring to a type of advaita doctrine, it does not mention saccid?nanda, though perhaps the Tarkajv?la has more to say. The citation is from : 2009 ?Preliminary remarks on the Grub mtha? chen mo of Bya ?Chad kha ba Ye shes rdo rje,? in Sanskrit Manuscripts in China, ed. Ernst Steinkellner. Beijing: China Tibetology Publishing House, pp. 137-152. Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Professor emeritus Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris Associate The University of Chicago Divinity School Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 Sent with Proton Mail secure email. On Friday, August 22nd, 2025 at 2:27 PM, Uskokov, Aleksandar wrote: Thank you, I was checking Qvarnstrom, will look in more detail. Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University DUS, South Asian Studies ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: Matthew Kapstein Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 8:23 AM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar Cc: Walter Slaje ; Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed If I recall correctly, it is in the Tarkajv?la commentary, not the k?rik?. You can check O. Qvarnstrom?s translation. If not there, then my memory is fooling me. M On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar > wrote: Dear Matthew, I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the causal) Brahman. Yours, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University DUS, South Asian Studies ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM To: Walter Slaje Cc: Indology List Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear all, If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. best, Matthew On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] All the best, WS Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com>: Dear Alex and John, > Food for thought You said it! On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) More food for thought? Yours, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson >: Dear All 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. Yours, Alex -- Alex Watson Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Harry, Walter, and All, Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. Food for thought. As Ever, John ______________________________ _____________ John Nemec, Ph.D. Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies Department of Religious Studies 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22904 +1 (434) 924-6716 nemec at virginia.edu https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec Take a look at my new book: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM To: Harry Spier > Cc: Indology > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed Dear Harry, > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). Regards, Walter Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier >: Dear Walter, My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. You wrote: Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? Thanks, Harry Spier ______________________________ _________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Nakamura_Bhaskara the Vedantin in Buddhist Literature.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 390471 bytes Desc: Nakamura_Bhaskara the Vedantin in Buddhist Literature.pdf URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 17:29:37 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:29:37 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [arks] some n2t.net In-Reply-To: References: <39ec0616-7620-42f9-9a68-a639ced196d2n@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: This issue is now resolved. (Somebody stop me. :-) On Fri, 22 Aug 2025 at 10:25, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > I routinely use n2t.net to resolve ARK references to items in archive.org > and elsewhere. But today I'm finding many of these calls don't work, and > instead get sent to ezid.cdlib.org, where they fail. > > E.g., > > - https://n2t.net/ark:/13960/t75t8vp2v > > gives an error message. > [image: Screenshot from 2025-08-22 09-46-56.png] > I hope this matter will be resolved soon (see what I did there). > Meanwhile, if you're stuck, the resolver http://ark.archive.org works > fine. So, for the above ark, it would be > http://ark.archive.org/ark:/13960/t75t8vp2v. > > If you don't know what any of this is about, I envy you. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > Dominik Wujastyk > INDOLOGY list committee member > *Please do not reply to me personally: re*ply to > indology-owner at list.indology.info > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot from 2025-08-22 09-46-56.png Type: image/png Size: 23214 bytes Desc: not available URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 17:52:13 2025 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 19:52:13 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Lyne, With reference to what you wrote in your paper: "[?] that Bh?skara could have been more or less contemporary with ?a?kara. In that case, Bh?skara?s m?la would be the earliest evidence (c. 9th century) of the Kashmirian G?t? [?]" I would like to draw the list's attention to Christophe Vielle's recently published study, which contains important findings that cannot be underestimated with regard to a precise, absolute dating of ?a?kara during the reign of Vijay?ditya [696?733 CE]. See his 'The Great (Divine) Self Behind the Many Deities: The Ved?nta Connection of the Nirukta Tradition,' in: ABORI 104 (2023) [publ.], ? 4. It would also bring down the date of Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin from Kashmir, to around the early 8th century. Warmly, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 15:23 Uhr schrieb Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear colleagues, > > All thanks for this very interesting discussion. > > I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. > > In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta on > the Kashmirian *Gi?ta?*. Announcement of the First Critical Edition of > the *Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, *with the Reconstruction of the Text of the > Kashmirian *Gi?ta?* [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in *Journal > of Indian Philosoph*y (46.1: 31-64). > > Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) > Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, > etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. > > I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further > information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. > > Best wishes, > > Lyne > > > NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. > > > > > Lyne Bansat-Boudon > > Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde > > Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses > > Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk Fri Aug 22 18:18:43 2025 From: c.ram-prasad at lancaster.ac.uk (Ram-Prasad, Chakravarthi) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 18:18:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Saha article on Citsukha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear list, Would anyone be able to provide me with a copy of: Sukharanjan Saha ?Translation and Elucidation of Definitions of Svaprak??atva in Citsukha?s Trattvaprad?pik??, Journal of Indian Philosophy and Religion, Volume 2, October 1997: 88-142 Thank you, Ram-Prasad -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Fri Aug 22 18:41:07 2025 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 11:41:07 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If possible, can one share the pdf of Christophe Vielle's paper? Thanks. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 10:53?AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Lyne, > > With reference to what you wrote in your paper: > > "[?] that Bh?skara could have been more or less contemporary with ?a?kara. > In that case, Bh?skara?s m?la would be the earliest evidence (c. 9th > century) of the Kashmirian G?t? [?]" > > I would like to draw the list's attention to Christophe Vielle's recently > published study, which contains important findings that cannot be > underestimated with regard to a precise, absolute dating of ?a?kara during > the reign of Vijay?ditya [696?733 CE]. > > See his 'The Great (Divine) Self Behind the Many Deities: The Ved?nta > Connection of the Nirukta Tradition,' in: ABORI 104 (2023) [publ.], ? 4. > > It would also bring down the date of Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin from Kashmir, > to around the early 8th century. > > Warmly, > > Walter > > Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 15:23 Uhr schrieb Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY > : > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> All thanks for this very interesting discussion. >> >> I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. >> >> In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta >> on the Kashmirian *Gi?ta?*. Announcement of the First Critical Edition >> of the *Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, *with the Reconstruction of the Text of the >> Kashmirian *Gi?ta?* [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in *Journal >> of Indian Philosoph*y (46.1: 31-64). >> >> Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) >> Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, >> etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. >> >> I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further >> information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Lyne >> >> >> NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. >> >> >> >> >> Lyne Bansat-Boudon >> >> Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde >> >> Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses >> >> Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Fri Aug 22 19:08:22 2025 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 19:08:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470E73F9-CD96-486B-92B0-8428CC699374@uclouvain.be> Thank you to Walter for referring to this recent article (which faced some editorial issues: see the corrigenda on the published version and the other, corrected, file). See ?4 for a new element of precise dating of the a?c?rya (pp. 95-96) which corresponds to Slaje own relative dating (referred to fn. 42). It combines, on the one hand, the statement found in the Niruktas?lokava?rttika that S?an?kara's Bha?s?ya was composed "under the victorious [reign] of the glorious Vallabha king Vijaya?ditya" ? the Ca?l?ukya king Vijaya?ditya from 696 to 733 AD; with, on the other end, the S?r?n?geri mat?ha record(s) according to which S?an?kara was born in the 14th year of the rule of a king named Vikrama?ditya ? the Ca?l?ukya king Vikrama?ditya I reigned from 654/5 to 681 AD. (The epithet (s?ri?-pr?thvi?-)vallabha was the usual one of the kings of the first Ca?l?ukya dynasty ? they used it for styling themselves, and it was also used by their enemies, e.g. the Pallavas, for designating them). Therefore S?an?kara's dating 668/9-ca 733 appears as a possible "absolute" dating. With best wishes, Christophe Le 22 ao?t 2025 ? 20:41, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : If possible, can one share the pdf of Christophe Vielle's paper? Thanks. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 10:53?AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Lyne, With reference to what you wrote in your paper: "[?] that Bh?skara could have been more or less contemporary with ?a?kara. In that case, Bh?skara?s m?la would be the earliest evidence (c. 9th century) of the Kashmirian G?t? [?]" I would like to draw the list's attention to Christophe Vielle's recently published study, which contains important findings that cannot be underestimated with regard to a precise, absolute dating of ?a?kara during the reign of Vijay?ditya [696?733 CE]. See his 'The Great (Divine) Self Behind the Many Deities: The Ved?nta Connection of the Nirukta Tradition,' in: ABORI 104 (2023) [publ.], ? 4. It would also bring down the date of Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin from Kashmir, to around the early 8th century. Warmly, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 15:23 Uhr schrieb Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY >: Dear colleagues, All thanks for this very interesting discussion. I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta on the Kashmirian Gi?ta?. Announcement of the First Critical Edition of the Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, with the Reconstruction of the Text of the Kashmirian Gi?ta? [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in Journal of Indian Philosophy (46.1: 31-64). Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. Best wishes, Lyne NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ABORI 104_2024_Nirukta Intro + Vielle.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1285206 bytes Desc: ABORI 104_2024_Nirukta Intro + Vielle.pdf URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WSC Nirukta Vielle ABORI copie.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 733188 bytes Desc: WSC Nirukta Vielle ABORI copie.pdf URL: From alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in Fri Aug 22 21:54:05 2025 From: alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in (Alex Watson) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2025 22:54:05 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All One possible explanation of the sentence I cited earlier from the Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): *nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste.* is that it is based on what Bh?skara says in a p?rvapak?a (Brahmas?trabha?yam 2.3.48: 236.8-9): *param?tman? ced abhinno j?vah, kasy?nuj??parih?rau sy?t?m. na hi param?tmano 'dhik?ro 'sti, nitya?uddhabuddhamuktar?patv?t. * which was in turn based on ?a?kara. Again, thanks to Elliot Stern for this point. I don't know if there is any other evidence that Jayanta read Bh?skara. Yours Alex On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 6:28?PM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Thank you, Matthew. > > Apropos your observation that you haven't encountered any classical > Buddhist reference to ?a?kara, and since we seem to be all sharing Bh?skara > papers today, I attach Hajime Nakamura's "Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin, in > Buddhist Literature," who notes that Bh?skara seems to have been the > representative Ved?ntin for Buddhists. It would seem that for a good while > ?a?kara is deeply buried in the South and largely unknown outside Ved?ntic > circles even after the *Bh?mat?*. Which is why Alex's reference to the *Ny?ya-ma?jar? > *is so exciting ?. > > Yours, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > University > > DUS, South Asian Studies > > The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction > > > > *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > ------------------------------ > *From:* Matthew Kapstein > *Sent:* Friday, August 22, 2025 1:06 PM > *To:* Uskokov, Aleksandar > *Cc:* Walter Slaje ; Indology List < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > As I am now traveling, I do not have the materials with me to check > exactly what's found in the Tarkajv?l?, but in one of my articles that I > was able to access, we have a paraphrase of the passage in a 12th c. > Tibetan author: > > "[Ved?nta] holds that all of these inner and outer entities are of the > nature of a single great Self (*mah?tma *). The upper regions are its > head, the lower regions its feet, the sky its back, the directions its > hands, the planets and constellations its hair, the peaks its breast, the > mountain ranges its bones, the rivers its network of veins, the forests > its body hairs and nails; its back is the celes- tial world, its forehead > Brahm?, Dharma and Adharma are its two brows; its wrathful grimace is > Yama, the sun and moon its eyes, its inhalations and exhalations the winds > ..." > > It was the first sentence that I had in mind. Although clearly referring > to a type of advaita doctrine, it does not mention saccid?nanda, though > perhaps the Tarkajv?la has more to say. > > The citation is from : 2009 ?Preliminary remarks on the Grub mtha? chen > mo of Bya ?Chad kha ba Ye shes rdo rje,? in Sanskrit Manuscripts in China, > ed. Ernst Steinkellner. Beijing: China Tibetology Publishing House, pp. > 137-152. > > Matthew > > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Professor emeritus > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris > > Associate > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences > > https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein > > https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ > > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 > > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 > > https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email. > > On Friday, August 22nd, 2025 at 2:27 PM, Uskokov, Aleksandar < > aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote: > > Thank you, I was checking Qvarnstrom, will look in more detail. > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > University > > DUS, South Asian Studies > > The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction > > > > *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > ------------------------------ > *From:* Matthew Kapstein > *Sent:* Friday, August 22, 2025 8:23 AM > *To:* Uskokov, Aleksandar > *Cc:* Walter Slaje ; Indology List < > indology at list.indology.info> > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > If I recall correctly, it is in the Tarkajv?la commentary, not the k?rik?. > You can check O. Qvarnstrom?s translation. If not there, then my memory is > fooling me. > M > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar < > aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > > wrote: > > Dear Matthew, > > I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It > would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the > Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of > the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya > vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta > that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the > causal) Brahman. > > Yours, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar > > South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale > University > > DUS, South Asian Studies > > The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction > > > > *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM > *To:* Walter Slaje > *Cc:* Indology List > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > Dear all, > > If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the > citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably > Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. > > And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any > period at all. > > best, > Matthew > > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info > > > wrote: > > [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: > Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, > in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] > > All the best, > WS > > > Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < > walter.slaje at gmail.com>: > > Dear Alex and John, > > > Food for thought > > You said it! > > > On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings > were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played > a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass > in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers > sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual > presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either > barely known or more or less ignored. > > > However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- > and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason > would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its > Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed > critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was > he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) > > More food for thought? > > Yours, > Walter > > Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson < > alex.watson at ashoka.edu.in>: > > Dear All > > 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis > (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. > > 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he > wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri > shared by John Nemec) reads: > ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our > period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. > To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of > ?a?kara.? > To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra > rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages > in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. > The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the > time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that > text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in > that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of > ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. > > 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for > familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): > > Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): > nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma > nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. > > ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): > api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. > > (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? > > ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times > in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s > k?rik??. > > This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third > source. > > Yours, > Alex > -- > Alex Watson > Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy > Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University > *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson > * > > On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Harry, Walter, and All, > > Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant > article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. > > See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) > might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this > time. > > Food for thought. > > As Ever, > John > > ______________________________ _____________ > John Nemec, Ph.D. > Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies > Department of Religious Studies > 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue > University of Virginia > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > +1 (434) 924-6716 > nemec at virginia.edu > https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec > > Take a look at my new book: > > https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM > *To:* Harry Spier > *Cc:* Indology > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed > > Dear Harry, > > > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th > century Kashmir? > To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. > Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. > Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error > (*khy?ti *[Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current > volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the *?tmakhy?ti > *of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable > to illustrate his point (*?ilop?khy?na*, VI.32511?40). > > Regards, > Walter > > > Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier < > vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>: > > Dear Walter, > > My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. > > You wrote: > > > Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century *Mok?op?ya* > from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . > > > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th > century Kashmir? > > Thanks, > Harry Spier > > > ______________________________ _________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > > * * > > ------------------------------ > *Confidentiality Notice:* This email and any attachments may contain > confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then > delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Alex Watson Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University *https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson * -- *Confidentiality Notice:* This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently.?Thank?you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at Sat Aug 23 05:45:11 2025 From: christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at (Christian Ferstl) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 07:45:11 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Meghad=C5=ABta=2C_1st_ed=2E_by_M=2ER=2E_Kal?= =?utf-8?q?e?= Message-ID: <4f15c75c0a0ee1fcfa361ae7a28af618@univie.ac.at> Dear List Members, it seems not easy to find the year of M.R. Kale's first edition of K?lid?sa's Meghad?ta. I have access only to the second edition, revised and published in 1926, which unfortunately contains no mention of the first editition's date. Does anyone happen to know or can you help? Thank you, Christian Ferstl University of Vienna From aparpola at gmail.com Sat Aug 23 09:38:11 2025 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 12:38:11 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Meghad=C5=ABta=2C_1st_ed=2E_by_M=2ER=2E_Kal?= =?utf-8?q?e?= In-Reply-To: <4f15c75c0a0ee1fcfa361ae7a28af618@univie.ac.at> References: <4f15c75c0a0ee1fcfa361ae7a28af618@univie.ac.at> Message-ID: <6F4A51C8-D3C2-4EC0-8A8A-E045BA930C86@gmail.com> Dear Christian, the first edition appeared in 1900, and the third edition, revised, by Late Mr. M. R. Kale, B.A., in 1934. Best wishes, Asko > On 23. Aug 2025, at 8.45, Christian Ferstl via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > it seems not easy to find the year of M.R. Kale's first edition of K?lid?sa's Meghad?ta. I have access only to the second edition, revised and published in 1926, which unfortunately contains no mention of the first editition's date. > Does anyone happen to know or can you help? > > Thank you, > Christian Ferstl > University of Vienna > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Sat Aug 23 12:51:50 2025 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 12:51:50 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Walter, Thank you for this very recent reference, which could change our perspective on Bh?skara. Judit and I will have to read Christophe's article very carefully. Warmly, Lyne Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France ________________________________ De : Walter Slaje Envoy? : vendredi 22 ao?t 2025 19:52 ? : Lyne Bansat-Boudon Cc : Matthew Kapstein ; Indology List Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Moks?opa?ya completed Dear Lyne, With reference to what you wrote in your paper: "[?] that Bh?skara could have been more or less contemporary with ?a?kara. In that case, Bh?skara?s m?la would be the earliest evidence (c. 9th century) of the Kashmirian G?t? [?]" I would like to draw the list's attention to Christophe Vielle's recently published study, which contains important findings that cannot be underestimated with regard to a precise, absolute dating of ?a?kara during the reign of Vijay?ditya [696?733 CE]. See his 'The Great (Divine) Self Behind the Many Deities: The Ved?nta Connection of the Nirukta Tradition,' in: ABORI 104 (2023) [publ.], ? 4. It would also bring down the date of Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin from Kashmir, to around the early 8th century. Warmly, Walter Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 15:23 Uhr schrieb Lyne Bansat-Boudon via INDOLOGY >: Dear colleagues, All thanks for this very interesting discussion. I would like to add another stone to the edifice of reasoning. In 2018, Judit T?rzs?k and I published a paper entitled "Abhinavagupta on the Kashmirian Gi?ta?. Announcement of the First Critical Edition of the Gi?ta?rthasam?graha, with the Reconstruction of the Text of the Kashmirian Gi?ta? [..] and a French translation of Both Texts", in Journal of Indian Philosophy (46.1: 31-64). Its final section (an Appendix, in fact), p.50 ff., deals with the (?) Bh?skara (his identity, his place of origin, his philosophical persuasion, etc.) under consideration in the platform?s discussion. I attach the paper, hoping that our colleagues might find further information there, and perhaps new material for other conclusions. Best wishes, Lyne NB: Some of you referred to Kato 2014. It happened that while preparing the J?s paper, I came through a first draft of Kato?s paper, and that I suggested a few emendations, mostly on the reasoning; see the printed Kato?s paper. It so happens that I had access to a first version of his paper and that I suggested some amendments, primarily concerning the reasoning. Lyne Bansat-Boudon Directeur d'?tudes pour les Religions de l'Inde Ecole pratique des hautes ?tudes, section des sciences religieuses Membre senior honoraire de l'Institut universitaire de France _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fritzman at lclark.edu Sat Aug 23 13:56:27 2025 From: fritzman at lclark.edu (J.M. Fritzman) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 06:56:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Moks=CC=A3opa=CC=84ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Namaste! The published version of Christophe Vielle's article is available for free download at https://dial.uclouvain.be/pr/boreal/object/boreal:270743 Cheers! ========================================= Dr. J. M. Fritzman, Associate Professor fritzman at lclark.edu Department of Philosophy Lewis & Clark College 615 South Palatine Hill Road Portland Oregon 97219-8091 USA https://sites.google.com/a/lclark.edu/fritzman/ https://lclark.academia.edu/JMFritzman https://zoom.us/j/3469350737 ========================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Sat Aug 23 21:56:27 2025 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2025 17:56:27 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Mok=E1=B9=A3op=C4=81ya_completed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <86DD1DEE-2007-4B4D-9A1D-44128BB6A614@gmail.com> Dear Alex, Great find in Bh?skara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam! This opens a definite possibility that Jayanta may have known ?a?kara work secondhand, rather than directly. Unfortunately, I too haven?t seen any direct evidence that Jayanta knew Bh?skara?s work. Best wishes, Elliot > On Aug 22, 2025, at 5:54?PM, Alex Watson via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear All > > One possible explanation of the sentence I cited earlier from the Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): > nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. > > is that it is based on what Bh?skara says in a p?rvapak?a (Brahmas?trabha?yam 2.3.48: 236.8-9): > param?tman? ced abhinno j?vah, kasy?nuj??parih?rau sy?t?m. na hi param?tmano 'dhik?ro 'sti, nitya?uddhabuddhamuktar?patv?t. > > which was in turn based on ?a?kara. Again, thanks to Elliot Stern for this point. > > I don't know if there is any other evidence that Jayanta read Bh?skara. > > Yours > Alex > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 6:28?PM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> Thank you, Matthew. >> >> Apropos your observation that you haven't encountered any classical Buddhist reference to ?a?kara, and since we seem to be all sharing Bh?skara papers today, I attach Hajime Nakamura's "Bh?skara, the Ved?ntin, in Buddhist Literature," who notes that Bh?skara seems to have been the representative Ved?ntin for Buddhists. It would seem that for a good while ?a?kara is deeply buried in the South and largely unknown outside Ved?ntic circles even after the Bh?mat?. Which is why Alex's reference to the Ny?ya-ma?jar? is so exciting ?. >> >> Yours, >> Aleksandar >> >> Aleksandar Uskokov >> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University >> DUS, South Asian Studies >> ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction >> >> Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >> From: Matthew Kapstein > >> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 1:06 PM >> To: Uskokov, Aleksandar > >> Cc: Walter Slaje >; Indology List > >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >> >> As I am now traveling, I do not have the materials with me to check exactly what's found in the Tarkajv?l?, but in one of my articles that I was able to access, we have a paraphrase of the passage in a 12th c. Tibetan author: >> >> "[Ved?nta] holds that all of these inner and outer entities are of the nature of a single great Self (mah?tma ). The upper regions are its head, the lower regions its feet, the sky its back, the directions its hands, the planets and constellations its hair, the peaks its breast, the mountain ranges its bones, the rivers its network of veins, the forests its body hairs and nails; its back is the celes- tial world, its forehead Brahm?, Dharma and Adharma are its two brows; its wrathful grimace is Yama, the sun and moon its eyes, its inhalations and exhalations the winds..." >> >> It was the first sentence that I had in mind. Although clearly referring to a type of advaita doctrine, it does not mention saccid?nanda, though perhaps the Tarkajv?la has more to say. >> >> The citation is from : 2009 ?Preliminary remarks on the Grub mtha? chen mo of Bya ?Chad kha ba Ye shes rdo rje,? in Sanskrit Manuscripts in China, ed. Ernst Steinkellner. Beijing: China Tibetology Publishing House, pp. 137-152. >> >> Matthew >> >> >> Matthew T. Kapstein >> Professor emeritus >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris >> >> Associate >> The University of Chicago Divinity School >> >> Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences >> >> https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein >> >> https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ >> >> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 >> >> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 >> >> https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 >> >> Sent with Proton Mail secure email. >> >> On Friday, August 22nd, 2025 at 2:27 PM, Uskokov, Aleksandar > wrote: >>> Thank you, I was checking Qvarnstrom, will look in more detail. >>> >>> Aleksandar Uskokov >>> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >>> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University >>> DUS, South Asian Studies >>> ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction >>> >>> Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >>> From: Matthew Kapstein > >>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 8:23 AM >>> To: Uskokov, Aleksandar > >>> Cc: Walter Slaje >; Indology List > >>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>> >>> If I recall correctly, it is in the Tarkajv?la commentary, not the k?rik?. You can check O. Qvarnstrom?s translation. If not there, then my memory is fooling me. >>> M >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 13:06, Uskokov, Aleksandar > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Matthew, >>>> >>>> I don't find it in the Ved?nta chapter of the Madhyamaka-h?daya-k?rik?. It would be quite important if it does appear anywhere before, say, the Tattva-sa?graha, since the formula, not just the list of qualities?think of the difference between the qualities of Brahman listed in the Taittir?ya vs. the sac-cid-?nanda formula?is one of the hallmarks of ?a?kara's Ved?nta that his followers customarily use to refer to the pure (rather than the causal) Brahman. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Aleksandar >>>> >>>> Aleksandar Uskokov >>>> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar >>>> South Asian Studies Council & Department of Religious Studies, Yale University >>>> DUS, South Asian Studies >>>> ????The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction >>>> >>>> Office Hours Sign-up: https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov >>>> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > >>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2025 5:32 AM >>>> To: Walter Slaje > >>>> Cc: Indology List > >>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> If memory serves me well, the qualities of Brahman enumerated in the citation of Jayanta are given in pre-?ankara Buddhist authors, notably Bh?viveka, in doxographic treatments of Ved?nta. >>>> >>>> And I know of no classical Indian Buddhist references to ?ankara from any period at all. >>>> >>>> best, >>>> Matthew >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2025 at 08:56, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [Attached is an article on the issue of Bh?skara's provenance: >>>>> Kato, Takahiro, A Note on the Kashmirian Recension of the Bhagavadg?t?, in: Journal of Indian and Buddhist Studies, 62.3, 2014, pp. 1144-1150. ] >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> WS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 07:27 Uhr schrieb Walter Slaje < walter.slaje at gmail.com >: >>>>> Dear Alex and John, >>>>> >>>>> > Food for thought >>>>> You said it! >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, it is undoubtedly true that even if ?a?kara's teachings were known to a few authors in Kashmir at that time, he cannot have played a significant role, since one has to search for him with a magnifying glass in authentic Kashmiri texts, as can be seen from the two important papers sent by John and Alex. Otherwise, the question of ?a?kara's intellectual presence in Kashmir would not have arisen. Therefore, ?a?kara was either barely known or more or less ignored. >>>>> >>>>> However, if we assume that Bh?skara (the author of the ??r?rakam?m??s?- and Bhagavadg?t?bh??yas) actually came from Kashmir ? for what other reason would he have known and quoted the Bhagavadg?t? almost exclusively in its Kashmiri recension? ? then this would suggest at least one detailed critical engagement with ?a?kara in Kashmir. (On a less serious note, was he unable to recover from Bh?skara's final blow in Kashmir?) >>>>> >>>>> More food for thought? >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Walter >>>>> >>>>> Am Fr., 22. Aug. 2025 um 00:39 Uhr schrieb Alex Watson >: >>>>> Dear All >>>>> >>>>> 1. I have written something about the kind of Ved?nta known to Sadyojyotis (675?725 CE) and R?maka??ha (950?1000 CE): see pp. 23?27 of the attachment. >>>>> >>>>> 2. The footnote by Sanderson on this topic, cited many times since he wrote it in the first half of the 1980s (e.g. in the article by Andrea Acri shared by John Nemec) reads: >>>>> ?When Ved?nta is expounded by its opponents in Kashmirian sources of our period it is the doctrine of Ma??anami?ra which is generally in mind [...]. To my knowledge no source betrays familiarity with the doctrines of ?a?kara.? >>>>> To support the contention that Kashmirian sources draw on Ma??anami?ra rather than ?a?kara to compose their Ved?nta-p?rvapak?as, he lists passages in the Paramok?anir?sak?rik?, the Ny?yama?jar? and the Tantr?lokaviveka. The inclusion there of Jayaratha's Tantr?lokaviveka implies that at the time of writing the footnote he had found no trace of ?a?kara in that text. But if my memory serves me correctly, he did subsequently find it in that text of Jayaratha. That would date the earliest definite knowledge of ?a?kara in Kashmir to the beginning of the 13th century. >>>>> >>>>> 3. Elliot Stern once sent me the following possible piece of evidence for familiarity with ?a?kara in Jayanta's Ny?yama?jar? (c. 890 CE): >>>>> >>>>> Ny?yama?jar? (Mysore ed. p. 466.2-3): >>>>> nanu yady ekam eva brahma na dvit?ya? ki?cid asti, tarhi tad brahma nitya?uddhabuddhasvabh?vatv?t muktam ev?ste. >>>>> >>>>> ?a?kara?s Brahmas?trabh??yam (NSP 1938 edition, 2.3.40: p. 616.7): >>>>> api ca nitya?uddhabuddhamukt?tmaprati p?dan?n mok?asiddhir abhimat?. >>>>> >>>>> (1.1.4: p. 113.1): nitya?uddhabuddhamuktasvabh?va ? >>>>> >>>>> ?a?kara uses nitya?uddhabuddhamukta and similar expressions several times in this work. Nothing like it appears in Brahmasiddhi? or Gaudap?da?s k?rik??. >>>>> >>>>> This is of course not conclusive, for Jayanta could be drawing on a third source. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Alex >>>>> -- >>>>> Alex Watson >>>>> Editor-in-Chief, Journal of Indian Philosophy >>>>> Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University >>>>> https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 7:20?PM Nemec, John William (jwn3y) via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>>> Dear Harry, Walter, and All, >>>>> >>>>> Andrea Acri has written about this, and I have downloaded the relevant article from his academia.edu page and attach it here. >>>>> >>>>> See p. 578 environ, and Andrea may be right that I (and several others) might be wrong about whether ?a?kara was known in the Valley around this time. >>>>> >>>>> Food for thought. >>>>> >>>>> As Ever, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _____________ >>>>> John Nemec, Ph.D. >>>>> Professor of Indian Religions and South Asian Studies >>>>> Department of Religious Studies >>>>> 323 Gibson Hall, 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue >>>>> University of Virginia >>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>>>> +1 (434) 924-6716 >>>>> nemec at virginia.edu >>>>> https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec >>>>> >>>>> Take a look at my new book: >>>>> https://global.oup.com/academic/product/brahmins-and-kings-9780197791998?cc=us&lang=en& >>>>> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 1:12 PM >>>>> To: Harry Spier > >>>>> Cc: Indology > >>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Mok?op?ya completed >>>>> >>>>> Dear Harry, >>>>> >>>>> > Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>> To my knowledge, ?a?kara played no role in Kashmir at that time. Ma??anami?ra was seen as the representative of Advaita Ved?nta. Significantly, the Mok?op?ya addresses and quotes Ma??ana's theory of error (khy?ti [Vibhramaviveka]) in Mok?op?ya VI.325.1?10 (the current volume), adopting "Vasi??ha's" inclusivistic approach by redefining the ?tmakhy?ti of the Yog?c?ra school in his own terms. As so often, he tells a parable to illustrate his point (?ilop?khy?na, VI.32511?40). >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Walter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am Do., 21. Aug. 2025 um 15:59 Uhr schrieb Harry Spier >: >>>>> Dear Walter, >>>>> >>>>> My congratulations also on this impressive accomplishment. >>>>> >>>>> You wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Contrary to a still-prevailing misconception, the 10th-century Mok?op?ya from Kashmir has nothing at all to do with ?a?kara's Advaitaved?nta . . . >>>>> >>>>> Was the existence of ?a?kar?c?rya and/or his writings known in 10th century Kashmir? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Harry Spier >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________ _________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > -- > Alex Watson > Professor of Indian Philosophy, Ashoka University > https://ashokauniversity.academia.edu/AlexWatson > > > Confidentiality Notice: This email and any attachments may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete the email and any attachments permanently. Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauthoff at hkbu.edu.hk Sun Aug 24 05:46:09 2025 From: sauthoff at hkbu.edu.hk (Patricia SAUTHOFF) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2025 05:46:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Bangla language project Message-ID: Dear all, I just read this piece on a fascinating in-progress Bangla language project and thought some of you would be interested. https://www.himalmag.com/culture/shabdakalpa-bengali-bangla-language-dictionary "The team is crowdsourcing between 40,000 and 50,000 texts, and digitising magazines, books and newspapers from the 19th century onwards. Once the corpus is complete, analysts will comb through each word?s usages across time ? like detectives piecing together a centuries-old trail." Patricia Sauthoff ?? ?? Assistant Professor Department of History Hong Kong Baptist University ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Disclaimer This message (including any attachments) may contain confidential information intended for a specific individual and/or purpose. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and notify the sender and the University immediately. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any action based on it, is prohibited as it may be unlawful. In addition, the University specifically denies any responsibility for the accuracy or quality of information obtained through University E-mail Facilities. Any views and opinions expressed in the email(s) are those of the author(s), and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of the University. The University accepts no liability whatsoever for any loss or damage that may be incurred or caused to any party as a result of the use of such information. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nina.mirnig at googlemail.com Tue Aug 26 09:08:53 2025 From: nina.mirnig at googlemail.com (Nina Mirnig) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 11:08:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] University of Vienna: Job announcement University Assistant Postdoc (6 years) Message-ID: <0C60A038-2AC4-4132-AD00-15FE30D1DEB8@googlemail.com> Dear colleagues, the University of Vienna is inviting applications for a six-year postdoctoral position ("University Assistant postdoctoral") in Pre-modern South Asian Studies (Indology) at the Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies. For further details, see the attachment or the website of the University's Job Center at https://jobs.univie.ac.at/job/University-Assistant-postdoctoral/1237300401/ . Applications must be submitted through the Job Center by 12th September 2025. We would be grateful if you could please share this announcement within your institution and forward it to potential candidates. With very best wishes, Nina Mirnig ??? Univ.-Prof. Dr. Nina Mirnig BA MSt DPhil (Oxon) University of Vienna Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies Address: Spitalgasse 2, Courtyard 2, Entrance 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria Phone: +43-1-4277-43511 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PostDoc at the ISTB_EN.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 951962 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PostDoc am ISTB_DE.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 987746 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PostDoc at the ISTB_EN.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 951962 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diani.d.raffaello at gmail.com Tue Aug 26 10:36:06 2025 From: diani.d.raffaello at gmail.com (Raffaello De Leon-Jones Diani) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:36:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New article on the attribution of a Persian Translation of the Bhagavad-Gita Message-ID: Dear list members, I am delighted to share with you my first and newly published article on a Persian translation of the Bhagavad-Gita, entitled "D?r? ?uk?h?s *Bhagavad G?t?*? The attribution of the *?b-i Zindag?* and its place among the Persian translations of Indic philosophical material". The link should provide access to those that are interested in the article. https://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/3N8CF9NBXPUSV9GZ7BDM/full?target=10.1080/00856401.2025.2534221 All the best, Raffaello De L?on-Jones Diani Doctorant ? l'?cole des Hautes ?tudes en Sciences Sociales (EHESS) - Centre d'?tudes Sud Asiatiques et Himalayennes (CESAH) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Wed Aug 27 01:05:23 2025 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2025 01:05:23 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] IASS Research Symposium 3 Sept - Zoom link Message-ID: Dear Colleagues Here is the Zoom link for the Symposium on Wednesday 3 September: https://anu.zoom.us/j/4254611673?pwd=yveI1JTQGRAAR4YOsfjfhZbwXh1lVS.1 Looking forward to having you with us. Yours sincerely, McComas --- IASS Research Symposium 'The World in Turmoil: Solutions from the Bhagavadg?t??' The Interational Association of Sanskrit Studies is pleased to announce that the first Online Research Symposium will be held on Wednesday 3 September. Three leading scholars will engage with the Bhagavadg?t? and its relevance from multiple perspectives: Simon Brodbeck, Professor of Religious Studies at Cardiff University, UK Richard H. Davis, Research Professor in the Interdisciplinary Study of Religion Program at Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, NY Gauri Mahulikar, Academic Director, Chinmaya International Foundation, Adi Sankara Nilayam, Kerala; Professor and HoD, Sanskrit Department, Mumbai University (retired) With an introduction and welcome by Professor Dipti Tripathi, President, IASS The Symposium will be chaird by Amruta Natu, Assistant Curator, Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute and Paolo Visigalli, Associate Professor in South Asian Studies and World History, Shanghai Normal University Time: 6:00am PDT, 9:00am EDT, 1:00pm GMT, 6:30pm IST, 9:00pm CST, 11:00pm AEST (or check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/ [https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/media/img/logo-icon.png?175] Time Converter and World Clock - Conversion at a Glance - Pick best time to schedule conference calls, webinars, online meetings and phone calls. Effortless time conversion and world time. Schedule conference calls, webinars & online meetings, plan travel and track flight arrival time across time zones. www.worldtimebuddy.com ) Zoom: link will be posted before the symposium. Inquiries: pvisigalli83 at gmail.com [cid:345e9577-5f2e-4d2a-870c-c73d34e67b74] McComas Taylor, Emeritus Professor of Sanskrit School of Culture, History and Language College of Asia and Pacific, Australian National University Secretary-General, International Assoc. of Sanskrit Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/jpeg Size: 31432 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Wed Aug 27 01:27:47 2025 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2025 20:27:47 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Meaning of parikarman References: Message-ID: Dear Indologists, The word parikarmam occurs in a Tamil temple inscription. Monier-Williams (p. 591, column 3) glosses parikarman as meaning ?attendance, worship, adoration? based on the Bh?gavatapur??a. I would really appreciate if specialists in the text could cite the specific reference and the actual meaning/s. Thank you in advance. Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Thu Aug 28 09:42:47 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 09:42:47 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pingree's CESS Message-ID: Dear friends, It appears that David Pingree's Census of the Exact Sciences ends with vol. 5 and thus with the letter V. I am looking for an author named Harivarman, and so not included in the CESS (and also not mentioned in Pingree's volume in the History of Indian Literature). I would be grateful for any suggestions about the best sources to consult, given this lacuna. Of course, the subject-matter is JyotiSa. with thanks in advance, Matthew Matthew T. Kapstein Professor emeritus Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris Associate The University of Chicago Divinity School Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 13:19:11 2025 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 15:19:11 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Publication Announcement Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The second volume of Alfred Ludwig's English translation (1886?1893) of the Rigveda, which remained unpublished during the author's lifetime, has just been released. Comprising Ma??alas VI?X, it has been edited by Raik Strunz, just like the first volume. You can find more information at: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/Alfred_Ludwigs_englische_%C3%9Cbersetzung_des_Rigveda_%281886%E2%80%931893%29/titel_8453.ahtml . This completes the edition of Ludwig's English translation, the first volume of which was published in 2019: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/alfred-ludwigs-englische-uebersetzung-des-rigveda-1886-1893/titel_6441.ahtml . Kind regards, WS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hellwig7 at gmx.de Thu Aug 28 17:04:41 2025 From: hellwig7 at gmx.de (Oliver Hellwig) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2025 19:04:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New resources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4215db98-5a8b-4653-96d6-499b6404495a@gmx.de> Dear all, a few Sanskrit related resources have been published today: * The initial version of the Vedic Prose Corpus (VPC), built in collaboration with K. Amano and S. Sellmer. Data available for download from github; more here: https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/corpus/VPC Note that this resource contains English machine translations for all texts (produced with Sebastian Nehrdich's MT model; files named qqq-mt.txt in the translation subfolders), and human translations aligned at sentence level for selected prose works. * A slightly reformatted and lemmatized version of almost half of the last GRETIL release: https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/corpus/GRETIL General background information about both resources is given in their parent git directory ("Sanskrit text repository"): https://github.com/OliverHellwig/sanskrit/tree/master/corpus * Those working with Vedic prose might have a look at a new English search interface built on top of the VPC: https://huggingface.co/spaces/OliverHellwig/vpcsearch This tool lets you enter an English sentence and then searches for semantically related statements in Vedic prose - no Sanskrit, no questions, nothing generative! See the "How to use this search tool" section at the top of the tool. * Finally, the lexicographic information from VPC and GRETIL has been integrated into the DCS, almost doubling the size of its corpus. Right now, the accessibility of this new data is somewhat limited. However, when searching a word (Query page), results from VPC and GRETIL are retrieved simultaneously and displayed under the header "Results for qqq from unsupervised lemmatization". Clicking this link gives you access to the relevant contexts and additional information about the occurrences. While integrating this new data, I realized that the VPC search interface is almost unusable from smartphones and tablets. I hope this has been fixed to some extent, e.g. by introducing a new character encoding system (aa for long a etc.; follow the link "Diacritics" on the query page). Best, Oliver --- Oliver Hellwig Institute for the Interdisciplinary Study of Language Evolution, University of Zurich From omkarsupekar8 at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 15:29:58 2025 From: omkarsupekar8 at gmail.com (Omkar Supekar) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 20:59:58 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Obituary: Prof. J.L. Shaw (1941-2025) Message-ID: Dear friends, It is with a heavy heart that I share the passing of Prof. J. L. Shaw (Victoria University, Wellington, New Zealand). At 5:28 AM on Friday, 29 August 2025, he peacefully passed away in his sleep, surrounded by his family as they prayed over him. His journey with cancer, which began some time ago, defied initial expectations, and we were grateful for the additional time he gave us. However, in recent weeks, his health deteriorated rapidly. Prof. J. L. Shaw was an esteemed scholar and academic. He was a Fulbright PhD recipient from Rice University, Texas, and had been a faculty member at Victoria University of Wellington since 1970 until his retirement in 2015. His contributions to the field of Indian and Western Philosophy will forever resonate with those who had the privilege of working with him. He has written & edited 15 books and presented around 200 papers at conferences or seminars in several countries. He has also received around 130 funded invitations from institutions or universities around the world and directed orientation courses on comparative philosophy. In 1993, he represented New Zealand at the World Parliament of Religions in Calcutta. Dr Shaw is also the founding member of several societies, including the Society for Philosophy and Culture, a society dedicated to cross-cultural and cross-disciplinary debate and discussion at Victoria University, which has now been running for 20 years, with branches in three countries. Through the profits from Dr Shaw?s books, the Society has provided scholarships to Master?s students at the University. Two international conferences have been organised on Dr Shaw?s philosophy, held in Kolkata, India, in 2001 and 2008. Dr Shaw is the recipient of two Festschrifts. He is the first New Zealand-based philosopher to be honoured with the Festschrift Contemporary Philosophy and J.L. Shaw (2006). He is also one of only two New Zealand-based scholars honoured with a Festschrift, with Comparative Philosophy and J.L. Shaw (2015), published by Springer. I was fortunate to study with him in 2023 as part of a two-month residential workshop in New Zealand on the theme 'The Relevance of Indian Philosophy to Contemporary Western Philosophy ', followed by another seven-day workshop in 2024 at the Center for Indological Studies and Research, Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture. I could continue my studies and research with Dr. Shaw till his last breath. Dr. Shaw's absence is deeply felt. Books by Prof. J.L. Shaw (PS: Research papers are not included.) 1. Mind, Body and Self, co-edited volume, Springer (2024). 2. The Collected Writings of Jaysankar Lal Shaw: Indian Analytic and Anglophone Philosophy, Bloomsbury, London, 2016. 3. The Relevance of Indian Philosophy to Contemporary Western Philosophy, The R. K. Mission Institute of Culture, Kolkata, 2022. 4. Logic and Metaphysics, J. L. Shaw, edited by D. L. Oxtoby, McMaster University, Canada, E-book, Amazon, 2014. 5. Meaning and Identity: An Interdisciplinary Perspective, co-edited volume, Punthi Pustak, Kolkata, 2014. 6. Human Beings and Freedom: An Interdisciplinary Approach, co-edited volume, Punthi Pustak, Kolkata, 2011. 7. Knowledge, Belief and Doubt: Some Contemporary Problems and their Solutions from the Ny?ya Perspective, Asian Studies Institute, Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand, 2007. 8. Causality and Its Application: S??khya, Bauddha and Ny?ya, Punthi Pustak, Calcutta, 2005. 9. Swami Vivekananda as a Philosopher, The R. K. Mission Institute of Culture, Calcutta, 2004. 10. Some Logical Problems Concerning Existence, Punthi Pustak, Calcutta, 2003. 11. The Ny?ya on Meaning: A Commentary on Pandit Visvabandhu, Punthi Pustak, Calcutta, 2003. 12. Cognition of Cognition: A Commentary on Pandit Visvabandhu, The R. K. Mission Institute of Culture, 1998. 13. Concepts of Knowledge: East and West, co-edited volume, The R. K. Mission Institute of Culture, 2000. 14. Ved?nta: Concepts and Application, co-edited volume, The R. K. Mission Institute of Culture, 2000. 15. Analytical Philosophy in Comparative Perspective, edited by J L Shaw and B. K. Matilal, D. Reidel Publishing Company, Holland, 1985.. Omkar Supekar Research Scholar (Philosophy) Department of Humanities and Social Sciences, IIT Bombay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mattkapstein at proton.me Fri Aug 29 16:07:41 2025 From: mattkapstein at proton.me (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 16:07:41 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pingree's CESS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends, Several have kindly replied with NCC references to the Tibetan canon catalogues of Cordier or Suzuki. I am sorry not to have made it clear at the outset that I am well aware of the Tibetan record and this is what has motivated my search for evidence on the Indian side. With thanks for your generous efforts, there is no need to bother with references to the Tibetan Tanjur. Harivarman, by the way, seems to have been active late 11th or early 12th c. In or around Kashmir, or possibly in what is today west Nepal (Jumla), where his works were translated into Tibetan. best to all, Matthew On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 11:42, Matthew Kapstein <[mattkapstein at proton.me](mailto:On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 11:42, Matthew Kapstein < wrote: > Dear friends, > > It appears that David Pingree's Census of the Exact Sciences ends with vol. 5 and thus with the letter V. I am looking for an author named Harivarman, and so not included in the CESS (and also not mentioned in Pingree's volume in the History of Indian Literature). I would be grateful for any suggestions about the best sources to consult, given this lacuna. Of course, the subject-matter is JyotiSa. > > with thanks in advance, > Matthew > > Matthew T. Kapstein > Professor emeritus > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris > > Associate > The University of Chicago Divinity School > > Member, American Academy of Arts and Sciences > > https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein > > https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/ > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1 > > https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1 > > https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949 > > Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 17:18:13 2025 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 11:18:13 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Seeking_a_reported_1892_edition_of_the_Su?= =?utf-8?b?xZtydXRhc2HhuYNoaXTEgQ==?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I've already searched archive.org, worldcat, British Library printed and online catalogues, Wellcome Library, Google, IOLR printed book catalogues. The scholar Hariprapanna, in his Rasayogas?gara (1927: intro p. 70 ) mentioned an edition of the *Su?rutasa?hit?* edited by "Pandit Krip? Ram (afterwards Swami Dar?an?nand)" that was published in 1892. Based on Hariprapanna's information, Meulenbeld listed this edition as "*m" which means he had not seen it himself (HIML IB, 312). I really can't find any trace of this edition elsewhere in the literature. There's a website about Swami Dar?an?nanda on the Arya Samaj site, and I've put together an entry at PanditProject with everything I can find about him. He wrote a Hindi-Sanskrit-Hindi dictionary , and numerous other works in Urdu etc. If you have any information about this 1892 edition, I'd be very grateful if you would share it with me. Best wishes, Dominik Dominik Wujastyk , Professor Emeritus, Classical Indian History University of Alberta, Canada . PI The Su?ruta Project 1.0 , The Su?ruta Project 2.0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ska4ki at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 19:08:46 2025 From: ska4ki at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JTQvNC40YLRgNC40Lkg0JrQvtC80LjRgdGB0LDRgNC+0LI=?=) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 22:08:46 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for a book: The Cult of Jagannath and the Regional Tradition of Orissa Message-ID: Dear list member, Could you please help me to find a soft copy of this book: A. Eschmann, H. Kulke, G.C. Tripathy (eds) The Cult of Jagannath and the Regional Tradition of Orissa (revised and enlarged edition). New Delhi: Manohar, 2014 I need the 2014 edition specifically. The old one I have. Best regards, Dmitrii Komissarov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: