[INDOLOGY] Analogues to Anselm's Ontological Arguments in Indian Philosophy?

Jeffery Long dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 27 13:12:20 UTC 2024 

Dear Matthew,

In the Jain tradition, HaribhadrasUri uses Astika in the same way in his SaDdarzanasamuccaya.
 
Yes, we’re several tangents away from my original question; but I have found this conversation thread highly engaging and useful.

All the best!

Jeff

> On Jun 27, 2024, at 6:56 AM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> 
> This has all departed quite far from the original topic of the thread.
> 
> In any case, the Astika-nAstika distinction was fluid and not always used to mean the same things. So the fixed idea that it means orthodox/heterodox is not always warranted.
> The Buddhist KamalaziIla, for example, uses Astika to refer to all who affirm karma-saMsAra,
> including the Buddhist and Jains.
> 
> Matthew T. Kapstein
> Professor emeritus
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris
> 
> Associate
> The University of Chicago Divinity School
> 
> https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein
> 
> https://vajrabookshop.com/product/the-life-and-work-of-auleshi/
> 
> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501716218/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-i/#bookTabs=1
> 
> https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501771255/tibetan-manuscripts-and-early-printed-books-volume-ii/#bookTabs=1
> 
> https://brill.com/edcollbook/title/60949
> 
> Sent with Proton Mail <https://proton.me/> secure email.
> 
> On Thursday, June 27th, 2024 at 11:46 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>> <image.png>
>> <image.png>
>> <image.png>
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 1:36 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com <mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> Thanks, Prof. Bronkhorst for sharing this interesting article.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 9:46 AM Johannes Bronkhorst via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>> There is a discussion of the use of āstika and nāstika in a number of texts (including the remarkable use of nāstika in the Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha) in the following article:
>>>> The structure of the Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha." Journal of Indian Philosophy 49(4), 2021, 523-534. https://doi.org/10.1007/s10781-021-09474-1. (From p. 530 on)
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Johannes Bronkhorst
>>>> 
>>>>> On 26 Jun 2024, at 22:48, Howard Resnick via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you Lubomir!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Howard
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Lubomír Ondračka <ondracka at ff.cuni.cz <mailto:ondracka at ff.cuni.cz>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For an overview of the history of the terms āstika and nāstika, see the chapter:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> “Affirmers (āstikas) and Deniers (nāstikas) in Indian History”, in Andrew J. Nicholson, Unifying Hinduism: Philosophy and Identity in Indian Intellectual History, New York: Columbia University Press, 2010, pp. 166–184.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> L.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 25/06/2024 13:54, Howard Resnick via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear Nagaraj,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You indicate that āstika and nāstika are Indian neologisms, but these words are common in earlier Sanskrit literature. I give a few examples below.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But , as almost all in this group know, these two words aastka and naastika were not in reference to the existence or no existence of God in the traditional Vaidika discourse.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There are a number instances of āstikyam in the Mahābhārata, and the context seems to indicate the word is being used in the sense of believing in the existence of God. Here is just a partial list of occurences of āstikya and nāstikya in the Mahābhārata:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> MBh 1.1.181, 2.5.96, 6.40.42, 12.12.25, 12.59.66,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> And in the Gītā 18.42
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bhāgavata-purāṇa: 1.16.28, 7.11.23, 11.17.18, 11.19.33
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In all these cases, the word seems to be used in the MW sense of "belief in God, piety, faithfulness.”
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>> Howard
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2024, at 2:16 AM, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dear Prof. Jeffrey Long, 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 'existence' , interestingly enough, is part of the contemporary neologisms in the discourse related to religion in the contemporary Indian languages. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Words aastka and naastika are the neologisms formed and in use as the Indian language replacements for 'theist' and 'atheist' of English. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> But , as almost all in this group know, these two words aastka and naastika were not in reference to the existence or no existence of God in the traditional Vaidika discourse.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> asti and naasti, in the traditional Vaidika discourse , refer to the existence and no existence of praamaanya for Sruti or existence or no existence of paralokas , svarga, naraka or mokshalokas (such as vaikuntha, goloka, kailaasa, manidveepa etc.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The root sat for exist as found in the word satya is part of the debates within Vedanta about the satyatva or mithyaatva of the category called Jagat , but not about a category comparable to God. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Category comparable to God, or a category often conflated with or confused for God in the Vaidika darshanas including Vedanta, is " eeshvara ".
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Classificational categories seshvara and nireeshvara used in reference to different Vaidika darshanas are not about the existence or no existence of " eeshvara ". It is about whether the category of " eeshvara ". is necessary to account for things , (entities, processes and relationships etc.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Within Vedanta, brahman and eeshvara , categories comparable to God, are not discussed for existence or no existence of the category/entity. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Another existence or no existence discussion within Bharatiya Darshanas seems to be around aatman and that is between Vedanta and an avaidika darshana, say Baudha darshana . If anattaa is no existence of aatman, then this can be seen to be around the question of existence. 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In Vedanta, because of the equivalence of Brahman and aatman at a certain level, this, if it is actually around the existence or no existence of aatman, can be seen to be, at least remotely, connected to the existence or no existence of a category comparable to God.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 9:47 PM Jeffery Long via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Forgive me if this question has already been raised at some point on this list.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Are any of you aware of arguments developed in Indian philosophical systems akin to the ontological arguments for the existence of God raised by St. Anselm? The closest thing I can think of is Śaṅkara’s argument that existence is self-evident.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> With much gratitude in advance,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dr. Jeffery D. Long
>>>>>>>>> Carl W. Zeigler Professor of Religion, Philosophy, & Asian Studies
>>>>>>>>> School of Arts & Humanities
>>>>>>>>> Elizabethtown College
>>>>>>>>> Elizabethtown, PA
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, Philosophical, and Theological
>>>>>>>>> Lexington Books
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> “One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of life.” (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> “We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.” (Carl Sagan)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>> Dean, IndicA
>>>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>>>> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
>>>>>>>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
>>>>>>>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
>>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
>>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>> Dean, IndicA
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
>>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
>>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>> Dean, IndicA
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>> 
> 
> 
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