[INDOLOGY] Analogues to Anselm's Ontological Arguments in Indian Philosophy?

Tue Jun 25 16:13:07 UTC 2024

OK, Uskokov ji, I do not want to disturb your silence.

Thanks and regards,

Nagaraj

On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 8:19 PM Uskokov, Aleksandar <
aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote:

> Dear Nagaraj,
>
> I am not sure I can agree with the statement that Existence is the sum
> total of existences. Without splitting the hair too thinly, I imagine
> Śaṅkara would argue that in all forms of ΅x exists" only "exists" is true,
> "x" is false (see his BhGBhāṣya on 2.16 and the illustrations of ghaṭaḥ
> san, paṭaḥ san etc., discussed in the context of Being and
> sāmānādhikaraṇya). Note also the numerous arguments against increase and
> diminution of Brahman.
>
> Related is the question of Being and existence, which may be what you are
> getting at by the mention of plural existences. To exist generally means to
> occur in actuality. How that relates to Being, which is often understood as
> modal (and in particular pertaining to the potential), is an issue of
> particular ontologies.
>
> My point was, however, different. Asti/sat in Sarvajñātman is coordinated
> with or added to satyam. It should not be saying the same thing as satyam.
>
> In any case, I think I may have spent the good will of this community, so
> I will revert to silence for a while and follow Wittgenstein's sagely
> advice.
>
> Best wishes,
> Aleksandar
>
> Aleksandar Uskokov
>
> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar
>
> South Asian Studies Council and Department of Religious Studies, Yale
> University
>
> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu
>
> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction"
>
>        https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/
>
>
> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 25, 2024 10:11 AM
> *To:* Uskokov, Aleksandar <aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu>
> *Cc:* Jeffery Long <dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com>; Indology <
> indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Analogues to Anselm's Ontological Arguments in
> Indian Philosophy?
>
> Dear Sri Aleksandar Usokov ji ,
>
> Thanks for bringing in the sat derived satyam into discussion.
>
>  Mathew Kapstein ji  too mentioned Sat Chid Ananda in his mention of the
> Vedantic discussions.
>
> That Styam, Sattaa are discussed as the features of Brahman is not
> disputed/disputable.
>
> I hope you agree if  I say that the statement  " Sat(taa) (=
> existentiality) (itself) is Brahman "  / " Brahman is (in the form of )
> Sattaa = existantiality " .  is different from the statement
>
>  " Brahman exists"
>
> " X exists"  is different from "Existence is X"  or  " X is existence ".
>
> A exists, B exists , C exists etc., upto any finite or infinite number has
> existence of A, B, C etc., implied. But existence of all these entities
> being identified as some X makes existence of A, B, C as different from
> Existence , a category denoted by the word with upper case E . Existence
> with upper case E can be seen to be the common feature of or the sum total
> of all the existences with lower case e.
>
> X is Existence. Existence is X does not contradict the statement X has
> a/the feature existence or Existence.
>
> Astitva is a feature of Brahman is on the lines of  X has a/the feature
> existence or Existence above.
>
> " Brahman exists  " with a presupposition of its possible negation "
> Brahman does not exist"
>
> is different from this
>
>   Astitva is a feature of Brahman  which is non contradicting with Brahman
> is Existence or Existence is Brahman.
>
> I am not learned in Anselmian position or argument about God.
>
> If my layman's understanding of  Anslemian position as 'Existing God is
> greater or better than non existing God'. is correct , equivalent of that
> in Brahman terms would be Existing Brahman is better or greater than the
> non existing Brahman.
>
> Existing Brahman as contrasted with its binary non existing Brahman is not
> part of the Vedantic discussions.
>
> Hope this clarifies my earlier post.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 3:47 PM Uskokov, Aleksandar <
> aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu> wrote:
>
> Dear Nagaraj,
>
> This isn't entirely right, if I understand you correctly. Along with
> satyam of the Taittirīya satyam jñānam anantaṁ brahma (with ānandam),
> Sarvajñātman in his Saṅkṣepa-Śārīraka adds a number of essential positive
> properties of Brahman (some usual suspects as nitya, śuddha, mukta) that
> include asti. It isn't entirely clear to me why—there isn't an Anselmian
> concern—but unless it is entirely theological, i.e., unless he is looking
> at some Upaniṣad that mentions it as a characteristic of Brahman, I suspect
> that the Nyāya chain of astitvam -> jñeyatvam -> abhidheyatvam may be at
> the back of his mind, i.e., that being knowable and nameable is predicated
> on existing as something actual.
>
> In his list asti is followed by advitīya, if I recall correctly. Now we
> can argue if this is an existential quantifier or not :)
>
> Best wishes,
> Aleksandar
>
> Aleksandar Uskokov
>
> Senior Lector and Associate Research Scholar
>
> South Asian Studies Council and Department of Religious Studies, Yale
> University
>
> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu
>
> "The Philosophy of the Brahma-sutra: An Introduction"
>
>        https://www.amzn.com/1350150002/
>
>
> *Office Hours Sign-up:* https://calendly.com/aleksandar-uskokov
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 25, 2024 2:16 AM
> *To:* Jeffery Long <dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Analogues to Anselm's Ontological Arguments in
> Indian Philosophy?
>
> Dear Prof. Jeffrey Long,
>
> 'existence' , interestingly enough, is part of the contemporary neologisms
> in the discourse related to religion in the contemporary Indian languages.
>
> Words aastka and naastika are the neologisms formed and in use as the
> Indian language replacements for 'theist' and 'atheist' of English.
>
> But , as almost all in this group know, these two words  aastka and
> naastika were not in reference to the existence or no existence of God in
> the traditional Vaidika discourse.
>
> asti and naasti,  in the traditional Vaidika discourse ,  refer to the
> existence and no existence of praamaanya for Sruti or existence or no
> existence of paralokas , svarga, naraka or mokshalokas (such as vaikuntha,
> goloka, kailaasa, manidveepa etc.)
>
> The root sat for exist as found in the word satya is part of the debates
> within Vedanta about the satyatva or mithyaatva of the category called
> Jagat , but not about a category comparable to God.
>
> Category comparable to God, or a category often conflated with or confused
> for God in the Vaidika darshanas including Vedanta, is " eeshvara ".
>
> Classificational categories seshvara and nireeshvara used in reference to
> different Vaidika darshanas are not about the existence or no existence of
> " eeshvara ". It is about whether the category of  " eeshvara ". is
> necessary to account for things , (entities, processes and relationships
> etc.)
>
> Within Vedanta, brahman  and eeshvara , categories comparable to God, are
> not discussed for existence or no existence of the category/entity.
>
> Another existence or no existence discussion within Bharatiya Darshanas
> seems to be around aatman and that is between Vedanta and an avaidika
> darshana, say  Baudha darshana . If anattaa is no existence of aatman,
> then this can be seen to be around the question of existence.
>
> In Vedanta, because of the equivalence of Brahman and aatman at a certain
> level, this, if it is actually around the existence or no existence of
> aatman,  can be seen to be, at least remotely, connected to the existence
> or no existence of a category comparable to God.
>
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2024 at 9:47 PM Jeffery Long via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> Forgive me if this question has already been raised at some point on this
> list.
>
> Are any of you aware of arguments developed in Indian philosophical
> systems akin to the ontological arguments for the existence of God raised
> by St. Anselm? The closest thing I can think of is Śaṅkara’s argument that
> existence is self-evident.
>
> With much gratitude in advance,
>
> Jeff
>
>
> Dr. Jeffery D. Long
> Carl W. Zeigler Professor of Religion, Philosophy, & Asian Studies
> School of Arts & Humanities
> Elizabethtown College
> Elizabethtown, PA
>
> https://etown.academia.edu/JefferyLong
>
> Series Editor, Explorations in Indic Traditions: Ethical, Philosophical,
> and Theological
> Lexington Books
>
> “One who makes a habit of prayer and meditation will easily overcome all
> difficulties and remain calm and unruffled in the midst of the trials of
> life.”  (Holy Mother Sarada Devi)
>
> “We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself.” (Carl Sagan)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> Dean, IndicA
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> Dean, IndicA
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Dean, IndicA
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
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