[INDOLOGY] Aśoka, Ashoka, Ahsoka

Fri Oct 13 15:11:07 UTC 2023

Patrick is currently in India. A few days ago he had a wonderful, 
thoughtful discussion of his approach to this biography with Ramachandra 
Guha, I don't know if the link is still active. 
https://thewire.in/history/watch-ashoka-biography-patrick-olivelle-ramachandra-guha 
<https://thewire.in/history/watch-ashoka-biography-patrick-olivelle-ramachandra-guha> 

Rosane Rocher

On 10/13/23 10:52 AM, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY wrote:
> By the way, I see that Patrick Olivelle has recently published a new 
> study of Ashoka:
>
> https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/asianstudies/news/prof-olivelle-publishes-major-new-study-of-ashoka 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/asianstudies/news/prof-olivelle-publishes-major-new-study-of-ashoka__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsK9H5t8wg$>
> Professor Emeritus Patrick Olivelle 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/asianstudies/faculty/olivelle__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsJjNUuExA$> 
> has just published a new biography or portrait of King Ashoka, a 
> pivotal figure in the history of ancient India. The book, /Ashoka: 
> Portrait of a Philosopher King 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://harpercollins.co.in/product/ashoka/__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsL12pbq5Q$> 
> /(Harper Collins, 2023), is now available in India and will shortly be 
> available through Yale University Press 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300270006/ashoka/__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsLtlG5Z4A$> 
> in the US. It is the first book in a new series called Indian Lives, 
> edited by Ramachandra Guha. A number of translations of the book into 
> other languages are already in progress. Congratulations to Prof. 
> Olivelle on this tremendous achievement!
>
>> Le 12 oct. 2023 à 09:42, Dániel Balogh via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info> a écrit :
>>
>> As for the Sanskrit in the lyrics of "The Duel of the Fates", it's 
>> probably there, but very well hidden. "Mangled" doesn't begin to 
>> describe it... I looked into this years ago, and here's some of what 
>> I've found. Allegedly, the lyrics are based on a Welsh poem called 
>> Cad Goddeu, rendered into English as The Battle of the Trees. One 
>> verse of this, in one English translation, goes
>> "Under the tongue root a fight most dread, and another raging behind 
>> in the head"
>> (I am still baffled as to what this "fight most dread" may be under a 
>> "tongue root".)
>> Anyway, this was supposedly "translated" into Sanskrit, though the 
>> translator may not have known Sanskrit beyond being able to look up 
>> some words in a dictionary, then broken up and rearranged by the 
>> composer into something that sounded good to him. As far as I know, 
>> no official lyrics were ever published, but some people have 
>> transcribed phonetically what they thought they heard. The result was:
>> Korah Matah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Korah Rahtamah Yoodhah Korah
>> Korah Syahdho Rahtahmah Daanyah
>> Korah Keelah Daanyah
>> Nyohah Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Syadho Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Korah Daanyah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Korah Daanyah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Nyohah Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Syadho Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Korah
>> Korah Matah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Korah Daanyah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Nyohah Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Syadho Keelah Korah Rahtahmah
>> Then someone, who definitely knew no more Sanskrit than being able to 
>> flip the pages of a dictionary (but was a speaker of a modern North 
>> Indian language), kept doing so until he found something that sort of 
>> vaguely resembled the words above, and announced to the world that 
>> these are the meanings of the words in the lyrics. For instance: 
>> Matah = head (Hindi माथा?); Rath = speak (??); Amah = give (??) etc.
>> Others then passed this on as fact, some even adding that it's okay 
>> if it doesn't make sense, "because there is no formalised grammar in 
>> Sanskrit".
>> At any rate, I think some segments of the above transcript can indeed 
>> be matched to Sanskrit words, e.g.
>> korah is probably /ghoraḥ/ (unless it's /kharaḥ/) and korah rahtamah 
>> may be /ghoratamaḥ/, perhaps a rendition of "most dread"
>> yoodhah is definitely /yuddhaḥ/
>> syahdho may be /*sya adhaḥ/ (perhaps matah also contains /adhaḥ/?)/
>> /
>> daanyah and/or nyohah may contain /anyaḥ/ (perhaps preceded by an 
>> ablative case ending in daanyah)
>>
>> There's rather more recognisable Sanskrit in the lyrics of another 
>> piece, Qui Gon's Funeral. The (unofficial) transcript says,
>> Madhurah swehpna, go rahdomah swehpna, morittioo, madhurah, swehpna. 
>> There is no translation, but the English subtitle of the song is 
>> Death''s long sweet sleep.
>> I think this can safely be equated to Madhuraḥ svapnaḥ, ghoratamaḥ 
>> svapnaḥ, mṛtyuḥ, madhuraḥ svapnaḥ.
>> Though perhaps we should look for a word meaning something like 
>> "long" in "go rahdomah" - but I haven't been able to think of one.
>> All the best,
>> Dan
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 at 16:12, Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear Herman,
>>
>>     For once, this is a case of mythology that came to be recently
>>     enough for its creators to tell us about their motivations on
>>     Wikipedia:
>>
>>     Ahsoka was created by George Lucas
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lucas__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsLkvHPrWQ$> and
>>     Dave Filoni
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Filoni__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsJWpDhGEg$>.^[2]
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano*cite_note-2__;Iw!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsKbMhz0hg$>
>>      The character was developed to illustrate how Anakin Skywalker
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsKP6jdATA$> develops
>>     from the brash, undisciplined Padawan apprentice in /Star Wars:
>>     Episode II – Attack of the Clones
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Episode_II_**B_Attack_of_the_Clones__;4oCT!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsJ-D2OYUA$>/ (2002)
>>     to the more reserved Jedi Knight in /Episode III – Revenge of the
>>     Sith
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episode_III_**B_Revenge_of_the_Sith__;4oCT!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsJQwkmZlA$>/ (2005).^[3]
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano*cite_note-TVGuide-3__;Iw!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsL8ynUPgQ$>
>>      Lucas, who had two daughters, also wanted the character to
>>     appeal to girls.^[4]
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano*cite_note-taylor-4__;Iw!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsLAPUUz0Q$>
>>      Early in development, Ahsoka's name was "Ashla".^[5]
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano*cite_note-5__;Iw!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsLUdQQbkg$>
>>     ^[a]
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano*cite_note-7__;Iw!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsJBXavTHA$>
>>      Lucas renamed her after the ancient Indian emperor Ashoka
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsK5xFz-5g$>;
>>     the spelling was then altered by screenwriter Henry Gilroy
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gilroy__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsKWu4NANQ$>.^[7]
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano*cite_note-8__;Iw!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsIQrc2Epw$>
>>     (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahsoka_Tano__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsKVVTxctg$>)
>>
>>     and Twitter:
>>
>>     'In honor of #CloneWars 10th, the title page for the series bible
>>     I wrote back in 05. When we met with George to discuss the bible
>>     he changed Anakin's Padawan from 'Ashla' to 'Ashoka', after the
>>     Indian Emperor of the Maurya Dynasty. I later tweaked it to
>>     Ahsoka to make her unique.'
>>     (https://twitter.com/HGilroy67/status/1019372713712893952
>>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/HGilroy67/status/1019372713712893952__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsKVMf-xVA$>)
>>
>>     All my best,
>>          Antonia
>>
>>     On Wed, 11 Oct 2023 at 11:08, Charles DiSimone via INDOLOGY
>>     <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear Herman Tieken,
>>
>>         I don't know if Ahsoka is related to Aśoka but there is a
>>         long history of Sanskrit and related influence in Star Wars.
>>         I recell reading that Yoda takes his name from yoddhṛ. The
>>         Duel of the Fates song from Episode 1 has its chorus sung in
>>         (mangled) Sanskrit. Additionally, Tibetan and Kalmyk were
>>         supposedly the inspiration, in part, of the language of the
>>         Ewoks.
>>
>>         With my best wishes,
>>         Charles
>>
>>         Prof. Dr. Charles DiSimone
>>         Associate Professor of Buddhist Studies
>>         Department of Languages and Cultures
>>         Ghent University
>>
>>
>>         On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 9:44 AM Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via
>>         INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>             Dear List members,
>>
>>             I saw announced a sequel to Star Wars which features a
>>             character called Ahsoka. I am curious to know if this is
>>             a mangled version of Aśoka, via Ashoka (in Dutch papers
>>             the aspiration in the name Gandhi is often misplaced:
>>             Ghandi).
>>
>>             with kind regards, Herman
>>
>>
>>             Herman Tieken
>>             Stationsweg 58
>>             2515 BP Den Haag
>>             The Netherlands
>>             00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>             website: hermantieken.com
>>             <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hermantieken.com/__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsLgloYriQ$>
>>
>>             /The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus/, New Delhi:
>>             Primus Books, 2023.
>>             https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/
>>             <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/__;!!IBzWLUs!StrSvxXIKCbWM0WglT1alqKurYsZIieeTRnf2Hm6DYekHhQ45cggJl1vVhn_BAKc6WGNeYVE5Zc9LGIWPpgVrsI93T3x5A$>
>>
>>             /
>>             /
>>
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>>
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> –––––––––––––––––––
> Christophe Vielle 
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