[INDOLOGY] CORRECTION: Important point about online manuscripts

Sat Jul 29 09:56:07 UTC 2023

There is a lot of catalogues and search interfaces produced by different people with different levels of training in different disciplines, over a long time of development of software capabilities. Some will be better, some will be worse. And different libraries will choose different transliteration rules.

MARC models: https://www.loc.gov/marc/bibliographic/ecbdmulti.html
BIBFRAME notes: https://guides.loc.gov/bibframe-manual/non-latin-scripts

The same way search can be made case insensitive, it can be made accent insensitive, making your two propositions discoverable either way:

[cid:image002.png at 01D9C207.27405F30] [cid:image003.png at 01D9C207.27405F30]

Both Google and Bing seem to be happy to ignore some diacritics but not others (in the example above, they do not have any results for the ASCII version). This evolves and changes with time.

As for being able to find misspelled entries, it again depends on the catalogue and its search engine. Putting aside recent models you can train with data of your choice, there is an old deterministic algorithm called SOUNDEX<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundex>, which would match “budha” with “bauddha” (however not “buddhist”). Both SQL and MySQL have SOUNDEX function built in. These databases can also perform accent insensitive search (and you do not need to change the database schema in order to do so).

People who put manuscripts on-line are therefore limited by the capabilities of the interfaces they will be indexed and accessed through, and which often conflict with each other. I would suggest the best practice is to include the text in the original script if possible and specify the script (ISO 15924<https://www.unicode.org/iso15924/iso15924-codes.html>) and the language (ISO 639<https://iso639-3.sil.org/code_tables/639/data>) separately in the metadata. This records all the necessary information that future search engines can utilize. If providing transliteration/transcription, be consistent with the rules and note which schema you are using. (And obviously use Unicode.)

Best regards,
Jan Kučera
ल Institute of South and Central Asia Students, Prague

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> On Behalf Of Harry Spier via INDOLOGY
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2023 12:27 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info
Subject: [INDOLOGY] CORRECTION: Important point about online manuscripts

Jonathan Silk brought up an important point about on-line manuscripts when he showed how spelling affects whether an online manuscript is found or not. Of course his example "Bauddha Gamartha Samgraha" showed how a title prevented finding a manuscript.  But those of us who work in putting manuscripts on-line do so, not just so they'll be found by members of lists we make announcements to, but hopefully that they may be found many years in the future, so to me the question is how do we title on-line manuscripts and what metadata do we associate with them so they will be found in searchs (perhaps decades in the future)..

For example picking a manuscript title at random aṃśumatkāśyapāgama .
Should the file name be the exact title in IAST i.e. aṃśumatkāśyapāgama.txt
Should the file name be the exact title but without diacriticals i.e. amsumatkasyapagama.txt
Does header data within the text file and written at its beginning such as exact title or alternate title affect whether it is found in searchs?
Should the file have metadata? I.e. should the text file have an html or xml wrapper with metadata of its title in HK, Velthuis, devanagari? And in this case its alternate title aṃśumadāgama .?
Are there other ways that will help the etext to be found even if the search itself is mispelled?

Note: I'm asking these questions not in the context of "best manuscript transcription practices" but just in what will help an etext be found in google searchs. Does Google even say anything about how to maximize this?
Thanks,
Harry Spier

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 3:34 PM Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Ron is not kidding. I searched for "Buddhist," nothing, then "bauddha" and got --I'm not making this up:
Bauddha Gamartha Samgraha.

bauddhāgama... okaaay

On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 9:20 PM Davidson, Ronald M. <RDavidson at fairfield.edu<mailto:RDavidson at fairfield.edu>> wrote:
I appreciate everyone’s input on manuscript collections.

Perhaps I overlooked it’s notice by others, but this rather idiosyncratic collection came to my attention some time ago: http://indianmanuscripts.com/

It bills itself as the largest collection of Indian manuscripts and antique books. There are some valuable items, but the romanization is via the North Indian/Hindi pronunciation one sometimes finds in Archive.org as well. Consequently, items are a bit challenging to spot from time to time.

Best wishes,
Ron

________________________________
Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D.
Professor of Religious Studies
345 Donnarumma Hall
Fairfield University, 1073 North Benson Road
Fairfield CT 06824-5195, U.S.A.
203-254-4000 x 2489

From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Reply-To: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 1:19 PM
To: Timothy Cahill <tccahill at loyno.edu<mailto:tccahill at loyno.edu>>
Cc: "Indology (indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>)" <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Manuscript collections on archive.org<http://archive.org>

Thanks for this Tim. Links to the resources you mention are already there in the listing at http: //indology. info/external-resources, afaik. The way information is presented is far from clear: I'm trying to get an upgrade to the Wordpress

Thanks for this Tim.  Links to the resources you mention are already there in the listing at http://indology.info/external-resources<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/indology.info/external-resources__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSllw06S9$>, afaik.  The way information is presented is far from clear: I'm trying to get an upgrade to the Wordpress plugin, in the hope of improving presentation.

About the Asiatic Society of Mumbai, some of their MSS could be found at archive.org<http://archive.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/archive.org__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSuTMMfsO$> by searching in Devanagari, but I think they have been taken down.

Best,
Dominik

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 at 17:37, Timothy Cahill <tccahill at loyno.edu<mailto:tccahill at loyno.edu><mailto:tccahill at loyno.edu<mailto:tccahill at loyno.edu>>> wrote:
Greetings,
   The  Lalcand Research Library (originally in Lāhore) of D.A.V. College, Chandigarh has a large collection, some of which was previously available on archive.org<http://archive.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/archive.org__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSuTMMfsO$>.  The manuscripts that I downloaded a few years back came with a full roman transcription as well as translations. Current web site:  https://www.davchd.ac.in/lcrl<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.davchd.ac.in/lcrl__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSpaa1g5t$>
    A MS from the Asiatic Society of Mumbai was also available on archive.org<http://archive.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/archive.org__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSuTMMfsO$> some years back, but it too has disappeared from there and (likely) been integrated into their new site at:
https://www.asiaticsociety.org.in/index.php/holdings/manuscripts<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.asiaticsociety.org.in/index.php/holdings/manuscripts__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSvyP8Ipm$>
This site requires registration and the payment of a fee as an annual subscription.
   One note about the Penn collection: it is integrated into the worldcat site, so a search for a book will also bring up notices of the Penn collection, plus links that bring you directly to the digitized images.
Best wishes,
Tim Cahill

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 3:25 PM Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:
Deepest thanks to everyone who has sent me further links for the list of "Online Libraries of Scanned Manuscripts" at INDOLOGY.info.  I'm using a cheap-and-cheerful plugin for Wordpress that doesn't allow manual rearrangement of the list items.  So it's a bit of a grab-bag.

Best,
Dominik

Dominik Wujastyk
INDOLOGY list<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/indology.info__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSq1FwWDK$> committee member
Please do not reply to me personally: reply to indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info><mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>>

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 at 13:23, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com><mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>>> wrote:
already there, via Colenda.  What is the relationship between UPenn's Colenda and OPenn?

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 at 08:50, Eric Moses Gurevitch via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:
In addition to the already-mentioned repositories, Penn Libraries has digitized almost 3000 South Asian manuscripts: https://openn.library.upenn.edu/html/indic_contents.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/openn.library.upenn.edu/html/indic_contents.html__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSmm83kw7$>

Take care,
Eric

On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 9:13 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:
There's also a nice collection of Sanskrit mss. from Cambridge U. :
https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/collections/sanskrit/1<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/collections/sanskrit/1__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CShcl01D3$>

The Gallica database of the Bibliotheque nationale de France also includes scans of many Skt. and other Indic mss., but I haven't found an easy way to globally search Skt. alone. Here's the general site:
https://gallica.bnf.fr/accueil/en/content/accueil-en?mode=desktop<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gallica.bnf.fr/accueil/en/content/accueil-en?mode=desktop__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSoB8mRef$>

And, if anyone cares to look up the details and post them, the Endangered Archives programme of the British Library (https://eap.bl.uk/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eap.bl.uk/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSl4EoJt9$>) has scanned quite a lot of Pali and probably some Sanskrit as well (not to mention Tibetan, Mongolian, etc.).

The Buddhist Digital Archives (https://library.bdrc.io/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/library.bdrc.io/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSnNHHHR3$>), though specializing in Tibetan, has recently branched out to include Pali, Sanskrit, and SE Asian languages, though I am not yet clear about what part of these additions are redirects to other databases.

Matthew T. Kapstein
Professor emeritus
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, PSL Research University, Paris

Associate
The University of Chicago Divinity School

https://ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ephe.academia.edu/MatthewKapstein__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSrNbNEQz$>

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------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, July 25th, 2023 at 3:48 PM, Giovanni Ciotti via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:

Dear all,

I've recently become aware of this one (registration required): https://lucknowdigitallibrary.com/publication-category/manuscripts<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lucknowdigitallibrary.com/publication-category/manuscripts__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSjduIswz$>

All best,
Giovanni

- - -
Dr. Giovanni Ciotti
Spokesperson
The Palm-Leaf Manuscript Profiling Initiative (PLMPI)
(https://www.csmc.uni-hamburg.de/written-artefacts/working-groups/plmpi.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.csmc.uni-hamburg.de/written-artefacts/working-groups/plmpi.html__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSkdIhime$>)
Cluster of Excellence - Understanding Written Artefacts
Warburgstraße 26
20354 Hamburg
Germany

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 at 10:56, Royce Wiles via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:
Admittedly NOT on archive.org<http://archive.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/archive.org__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSuTMMfsO$>, however, the Jain elibrary

https://jainelibrary.org/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jainelibrary.org/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSjDvUeyZ$>

(free registration required for full access)

has scanned and uploaded around 800 manuscripts (seemingly exclusively Jain texts) (findable in the category on the left of the site) as well as the 16,899 ‘books’ on the site and 6,000+ ‘articles’

On 25 Jul 2023, at 20:25, Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> wrote:

There is also
Chunilal Gandhi Vidyabhavan, Surat, Pandit Shivadatta Shukla collection
https://archive.org/search?query=creator%3A%22Chunilal+Gandhi+Vidyabhavan+Surat%22<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/archive.org/search?query=creator*3A*22Chunilal*Gandhi*Vidyabhavan*Surat*22__;JSUrKysl!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSvg4hoGj$>

Le 24 juil. 2023 à 22:38, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>> a écrit :

Dear list members,
Has anyone compiled a list of manuscript collections on archive.org<http://archive.org><https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/archive.org/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSvkhyxNi$>. I'm of course aware of egangotri, but I would appreciate it if members could give me references to other collections of original manuscripts.
Thanks,
Harry Spier

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–––––––––––––––––––
Christophe Vielle<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!G8N2kAYTlbp44IXQeE_dWSczSMHlu4_dQk7xroKmRRFSNT8rZx8uf2raVorV_Sk8cyA49ulYrhFwovqCowh-Ze5CSvTIz19-$>
Louvain-la-Neuve

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--

Eric Moses Gurevitch

National Endowment for the Humanities Postdoctoral Fellow

Vanderbilt University

eric.m.gurevitch at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:eric.m.gurevitch at vanderbilt.edu><mailto:eric.m.gurevitch at vanderbilt.edu<mailto:eric.m.gurevitch at vanderbilt.edu>>

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--
Timothy C. Cahill, PhD
स:, तम्, तेन, तस्मै, तस्मात्, तस्य, तस्मिन्
Associate Professor
Department of Religious Studies
Loyola University New Orleans
6363 St. Charles Ave.
New Orleans, Louisiana  70118
USA

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--
Prof. dr. J.A. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden

website: www.OpenPhilology.eu<http://www.OpenPhilology.eu>
copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk

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