[INDOLOGY] yāvantaḥ kiyantaḥ

Fri Dec 15 08:36:18 UTC 2023

se in AMg corresponds to Skt tad. I now think that the etesu-less sentence may be translated as something like this: "However many in the world, both samaṇas and māhaṇas, argue "I have seen this, heard this ..., (which has led me to the conclusion that) all living beings may be killed... Know that this is not wrong". (However many say this) it is an argument of aṇāriyas".

I take this opportunity to thank all who replied to my message. The information has proven very usefull. The Āyāra is a difficult text. It reads like a patchwork of grammatically unadapted quotations. Furthermore, for instance, transitions between pro and against are often not made explicit.

With kind regards,
Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>

The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023.
https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/

________________________________
Van: Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
Verzonden: vrijdag 15 december 2023 03:51
Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
CC: Oliver Hellwig <hellwig7 at gmx.de>; Walter Slaje <walter.slaje at gmail.com>; indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] yāvantaḥ kiyantaḥ

I’m not good at Ardha-Māgadhī, but I believe there is a pronoun in the following clause, viz. se, and another pronoun may be found in ṇe. Could either of these be the correlative to āvaṁtī keāvaṁtī? It doesn’t have to be etesu.

Just a thought…

Hans Henrich

On Dec 14, 2023, at 14:10, Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

Maybe it is better if I give the AMg passages (note the absence of ca and ignore the use of the ending vaṃtī for masculine plural):

Type with verbs:
I,5,147: āvaṃtī keāvaṃtī loyaṃsi vipparāmasaṃti ... etesu ceva vipparāmasaṃti

Type with "adjectives":
1,5,150 and following: āvaṃtī keāvaṃtī loyaṃsi (aṇ)āraṃbhajīvī/(a)pariggahāvaṃtī etesu ceva (aṇ)āraṃbhajīvī/(a)pariggahāvaṃtī

(? However many people there are in the world who (don't) commit violence/have/do not have possessions, the same percentage is also seen among those here (etesu, potential bhikkhus)"

In the following sentence there is nothing corresponding to etesu in the above instances:
1,4,136: āvaṃtī keāvaṃtī loyaṃsi samanā ya māhaṇā ya puḍho vivādaṃ vadaṃti se diṭṭhaṃ ca ṇe suyaṃ ca ṇe .... "savve pāṇā savve jīvā .... paritāvetavvā uddavetavvā, ettha vi jāṇaha ṇatthettha doso". aṇāriyavayaṇam eyaṃ.

Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hermantieken.com/__;!!DZ3fjg!4eLZ2bkq2FtplzuPWERn3j2fTzA0dJAPaHJn8RBh6sZpzGHJ5omiq0gk1oRL4gwVSb9HhQ7Hcg6taA3FLB2QCRIr_9Jq$>

The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus, New Delhi: Primus Books, 2023.
https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/__;!!DZ3fjg!4eLZ2bkq2FtplzuPWERn3j2fTzA0dJAPaHJn8RBh6sZpzGHJ5omiq0gk1oRL4gwVSb9HhQ7Hcg6taA3FLB2QCYlM2n1-$>

________________________________
Van: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> namens Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Verzonden: donderdag 14 december 2023 20:37
Aan: Oliver Hellwig <hellwig7 at gmx.de<mailto:hellwig7 at gmx.de>>
CC: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] yāvantaḥ kiyantaḥ

As almost always, Monier-Williams’ entries provide English translations of the German entries in Böhtlingk's dictionary (cp. R. Steiner, „Woher hat er das? Zum Charakter des Sanskrit-English Dictionary von Monier-Williams.“ ZDMG 170 (2020): 107ff.). In order to understand what MW's "as many as" was supposed to mean, we have to ask (with Steiner): “Where did he get that from?”. The answer is to be found in the German meaning of Böhtlingk’s dictionary:
"yā́vantaḥ kíyantaḥ [=] wie viele immer" (PW and pw).
German "wie viele immer" corresponds to "wie viele auch immer", and this is the exact equivalent of "however many".

Regards,
WS

Am Do., 14. Dez. 2023 um 20:01 Uhr schrieb Oliver Hellwig via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:
I found a few occurrences of a construction that looks like the one you
have in mind:

AVŚ, 8, 7 yāvatīḥ kiyatīś cemāḥ pṛthivyām adhy oṣadhīḥ /
JB, 1, 80 athaitarhi yāvad eva kiyac ca dadati //
MS, 2, 3, 2 yāvatām eva kiyatāṃ ca gṛhād ājyam āharanti teṣāṃ sarveṣāṃ
manāṃsi saṃgṛhṇāti //

Seems to be restricted to the old language. The AV example may be most
relevant. Also note the eva-ca construction in the two other examples. I
guess Kyoko Amano has discussed the MS passage in case it's contained in
her translation.

Best, Oliver

On 14/12/2023 19:51, Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> One possibility is that MW had in mind constructions with `as many as'
> where an expression may occur between the occurrence of `as many' and
> the second occurrence of `as': as many X as Y.
> There are as many men as women in the room.
> As many people speak Gujarati as speak Marathi.
> Best wishes,
> Brendan
>
>
> On 2023-12-14 13:03, Allen, Michael S (msa2b) via INDOLOGY wrote:
>> Dear Herman,
>>
>> I can't help with the /TBr /reference, but I thought it might be
>> helpful to note that "as many as" need not take a number in English.
>> It's grammatically possible to say, e.g., "As many as commit violence
>> will be brought to justice" (with the meaning "however many," as Hans
>> suggests).
>>
>> This usage is probably archaic—I can't imagine hearing it today
>> outside of intentionally rhetorical, poetic, or jocular contexts—but
>> it would have been familiar to Monier-Williams. It's employed
>> frequently in the King James Bible, for example.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Michael
>>
>> Michael S. Allen
>> Associate Professor
>> Department of Religious Studies
>> University of Virginia
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of
>> Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 14, 2023 12:31 PM
>> *To:* Indology List <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] yāvantaḥ kiyantaḥ
>> Dear list members,
>>
>> In the /Āyāraṃgasutta/ a phrase is found corresponding to Skt
>> /yāvantaḥ kiyantaḥ/. MW gives as its meaning "as many as". I am not a
>> native speaker of English, but as far as I know this phrase is
>> specifically used with numbers ("as many as a hundred people ...). In
>> the passage concerned there is no number. It functions as a subject to
>> either a verb meaning "they commit violence" or nouns/adjectives like
>> /araṃbhajīvī /and /pariggahāvaṃtī./
>> MW refers to /TBr/, without, however, a place or an example.
>> I hope someone on the list can provide me with an (or the) example
>> from the /TBr/ or any other text.
>>
>> With kind regards, Herman
>>
>> Herman Tieken
>> Stationsweg 58
>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>> The Netherlands
>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>> website: hermantieken.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hermantieken.com/__;!!DZ3fjg!4eLZ2bkq2FtplzuPWERn3j2fTzA0dJAPaHJn8RBh6sZpzGHJ5omiq0gk1oRL4gwVSb9HhQ7Hcg6taA3FLB2QCRIr_9Jq$> <http://hermantieken.com/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://hermantieken.com/__;!!DZ3fjg!4eLZ2bkq2FtplzuPWERn3j2fTzA0dJAPaHJn8RBh6sZpzGHJ5omiq0gk1oRL4gwVSb9HhQ7Hcg6taA3FLB2QCRIr_9Jq$>>
>>
>> /The Aśoka Inscriptions: Analysing a corpus/, New Delhi: Primus Books,
>> 2023.
>> https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/__;!!DZ3fjg!4eLZ2bkq2FtplzuPWERn3j2fTzA0dJAPaHJn8RBh6sZpzGHJ5omiq0gk1oRL4gwVSb9HhQ7Hcg6taA3FLB2QCYlM2n1-$> <https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://primusbooks.com/ancient/the-asoka-inscriptions-analysing-a-corpus-by-herman-tieken/__;!!DZ3fjg!4eLZ2bkq2FtplzuPWERn3j2fTzA0dJAPaHJn8RBh6sZpzGHJ5omiq0gk1oRL4gwVSb9HhQ7Hcg6taA3FLB2QCYlM2n1-$>>
>>
>> /
>> /
>>
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>
> --
>
> Brendan S. Gillon                       email:brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca<mailto:email%3Abrendan.gillon at mcgill.ca>
> Department of Linguistics
> McGill University                       tel.:  001 514 398 4868
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