[INDOLOGY] Visualisation of Sanskrit Phonetics

Sat Sep 25 22:28:49 UTC 2021

Dear Joanna,

I apologise if my response sounded overly critical.

You described how you teach pronunciation, and that approach seemed to
imply, to me, that you were aiming for specific phonetic traits far beyond
anything that I assumed we could know about Sanskrit (as you say, your
method is painstaking!). Hence my query.

To answer your question: I don't spend a lot of time at all on
pronunciation in my intro classes: when we go through the alphabet, I say
'this sound is like sound x in [language of instruction]', using whatever
is closest; with only few exceptions (such as retroflex stops) this works
quite well teaching in English or German.

I focus on phonemic contrasts and thus teach them to make a difference
between, say, th and t, but don't ever mind if their t's aren't fully
unaspirated. I am absolutely fine when my German- or English-speaking
students pronounce what I suppose we assume were purely dental stops as
alveolars, or when I get English l's or German r's; and I certainly don't
expect anyone to voice their h's (the latter, I fully admit, also because I
myself struggle with that one:-)).

Of course it is important to be able to vocalise the language you are
learning, and so I tell them to aim for consistency; but given the lack of
phonetic information (and, I assume, the lack of a unified pronunciation
across time and space) the explicit goal in my classes simply is
approximation.

I hope this is useful - and again apologies that I didn't simply ask 'why
do you do what you do?' in the first place!

All my best,
     Antonia

On Sat, 25 Sept 2021 at 22:56, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl> wrote:

> Well, I was somehow misunderstood. I am not going to reconstruct or teach
> the original Sanskrit pronunciation. I have explained that the formulation
> "native Sanskrit speakers" was unfortunate.
>
> But we all teach Sanskrit, don't we? And we have to explain to our
> students how to pronounce e.g. cerebral consonants. Do they exist or not?
> If they do, I think that the website mentioned by Adheesh could also be
> very useful  in teaching Sanskrit phonetics. That's all.
>
> I would be rather interested in how you teach Sanskrit phonetics in
> practice? I have described how I do that. Do you have the same painstaking
> methods?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joanna
>
> ---
>
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>
> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>
> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>
> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland
>
> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>
> College of Human Sciences
>
> UNISA
>
> Pretoria, RSA
>
> Member of Academia Europaea
>
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
> sob., 25 wrz 2021 o 18:01 Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> napisał(a):
>
>> No historically authentic Sanskrit pronunciation has survived in India
>> today, because no modern Indian language preserves all Sanskrit sounds.
>> However, there are regional standards of Sanskrit pronunciation, which may
>> be described in terms like the Pune pronunciation, Banaras pronunciation,
>> Mysore pronunciation etc. Sanskrit scholars in these different regions
>> generally follow that regional standard. Reciters of the same Veda from
>> different regions also have their regional standards. The Yajurveda recited
>> in Maharashtra sounds different from the Yajurveda recited in south India.
>> This is to be expected given the diverse linguistic history of India that
>> has left its marks also on the pronunciation of Sanskrit. Even works like
>> Rājaśekhara's Kāvyamīmāṃsā give details of the regional peculiarities of
>> Sanskrit pronunciation and recitation of Sanskrit poetry.
>>
>> Madhav Deshpande
>>
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 8:03 AM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Johanna,
>>>
>>> I was just wondering to what extent, without native speakers (and even
>>> with modern native speakers), we have any chance of reconstructing
>>> classical Sanskrit phonetics. Devanagari is of course much closer to the
>>> ‘one grapheme - one phoneme’ ideal than e.g. Greek or Latin writing are,
>>> and in some later grammatical works we have descriptions is how sounds are
>>> to be pronounced; but that still usually only gives us an overview of
>>> phonemes, and not necessarily their complete phonetic reality.
>>>
>>> I think it’s much more important to teach our students to be consistent
>>> in their approximations, so as to be intelligible, than to give them the
>>> idea that there is *one* correct ‘ideal’ pronunciation, so to speak.
>>>
>>> All best,
>>>      Antonia
>>>
>>> On Sat 25. Sep 2021 at 16:31, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Antonia, very much.
>>>>
>>>> But, generally speaking, the main topic of my letter was not Sanskrit
>>>> speaking villages, but how interesting the website is and how much
>>>> ultrasound technology would be helpful in teaching Sanskrit phonetics.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Joanna
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>>>>
>>>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>>>>
>>>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>>>>
>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>>>>
>>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>
>>>> 00-927 Warszawa
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g> ,
>>>> Poland
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>
>>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>>>>
>>>> College of Human Sciences
>>>>
>>>> UNISA
>>>>
>>>> Pretoria, RSA
>>>>
>>>> Member of Academia Europaea
>>>>
>>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sob., 25 wrz 2021 o 16:15 Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com>
>>>> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>>> On the idea of Indian villages where Sanskrit supposedly is spoken, I
>>>>> recommend Patrick McCartney’s excellent work, accessible e.g. here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/research#recentlypublishedarticles
>>>>>
>>>>> All best,
>>>>>      Antonia
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat 25. Sep 2021 at 16:11, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> An eminent scholar and my colleague, Artur Karp, has just
>>>>>> rightly questioned in a personal letter if there are Sanskrit native
>>>>>> speakers. Well, there are villages in India where Sanskrit is spoken as the
>>>>>> first language, but  Artur is right, the expression "Sanskrit native
>>>>>> speakers" was unfortunate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 00-927 Warszawa
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g> ,
>>>>>> Poland
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>>>>>>
>>>>>> College of Human Sciences
>>>>>>
>>>>>> UNISA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pretoria, RSA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Member of Academia Europaea
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sob., 25 wrz 2021 o 15:07 Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
>>>>>> napisał(a):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What a wonderful website!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish I could use ultrasonography when I teach my students to
>>>>>>> explain the Sandhi phenomena, e.g. cerebralisation of consonants (cerebral
>>>>>>> consonants are the most difficult consonants for Polish speakers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, it takes me much time to explain them how to pronounce
>>>>>>> the noun  *kṛṣṇa. *I tell them that if they want to properly
>>>>>>>  express it,  they have to realise:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) that they have to open their mouth slightly more than when they
>>>>>>> speak Polish  and release the muscles of their chicks and other muscles of
>>>>>>> the lower part of their face,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1)  that when they open the mouth slightly more and pronounce the
>>>>>>> guttural "k", they will have a lot of place between the tip of the tongue
>>>>>>> and the palate,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2)  that, having pronounced "k", they have to push the tip of the
>>>>>>> tongue slightly back (which is now not difficult thanks to creation of
>>>>>>> space in the mouth), and quickly move it in order to pronounce the
>>>>>>> vocalical "ṛ" (which is the same movement as in Polish "r"),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) that, having pronounced "ṛ", they still  have to keep their
>>>>>>> tongue back (to "yoke" it) in order to pronounce the sibilant "ṣ"
>>>>>>> (which is contrary to Polish habit to move the tongue a bit forward to
>>>>>>> pronounce the Polish consonant "sz", the same is for English "sh"),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) that, having pronounced "ṣ", they still have to "yoke" their
>>>>>>> tongue in the same position to pronounce the cerebral "ṇ".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I make funny faces when I try to "show" them this process, they
>>>>>>> laugh at me, and I ask them why they don't laugh at people at the gym who
>>>>>>> train various muscles of their body (which might look very funny too) and
>>>>>>> that the tongue is a muscle too, moreover its structure is unique to human
>>>>>>> species, because it allows us to speak. Then  we come back to the exercises
>>>>>>> until they say "wow, if we push our tongue back and keep it there, there is
>>>>>>> no problems with "ṇ" !".  Then they have to exercise until they are
>>>>>>> able to pronounce the word quickly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fact that the larynx is placed slightly more below in Sanskrit
>>>>>>> pronunciation than in Polish  is the upaniṣad and I teach it to
>>>>>>> them later on. I have some devices to explain how to lower one's larynx.
>>>>>>> But the video would be of much help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The movements of lips  (generally speaking the whole vocal
>>>>>>> apparatus) are also different, but this is easier to be shown. And the role
>>>>>>> of breathing is crucial, of course (which I teach my students from the
>>>>>>> very beginning).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I had such a device, it would be easier for me to explain to
>>>>>>> them "the art of yoking of the tongue".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be great if we could create such videos with Sanskrit
>>>>>>> native speakers which would take into account the invisible aspects of
>>>>>>> Sanskrit phonetics. I'd gladly take part in such an enterprise!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you very much, Adheesh. I will certainly use the page during
>>>>>>> my phonetics classes to show the movements of the tongue in general
>>>>>>> perspective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joanna
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 00-927 Warszawa
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g> ,
>>>>>>> Poland
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Krakowskie+Przedmie%C5%9Bcie+26%2F28+%0D%0A+00-927+Warszawa+,+Poland?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> College of Human Sciences
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> UNISA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pretoria, RSA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Member of Academia Europaea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pt., 24 wrz 2021 o 02:47 adheesh sathaye via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Marcis et al,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t know if this will be useful for your purposes, but the
>>>>>>>> Linguistics department here at UBC has designed a website called
>>>>>>>> “eNunciate!” with various linguistics learning tools, including “Sounds of
>>>>>>>> the World’s Languages”, which provides videos illustrating the
>>>>>>>> pronunciation of a broad range of IPA consonants and vowels, including,
>>>>>>>> presumably, all sounds within the Sanskrit syllabary.
>>>>>>>> They feature both graphical representations like you are looking
>>>>>>>> for, as well as actual ultrasound captures of a live speaker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The site can be accessed here:
>>>>>>>> https://enunciate.arts.ubc.ca/linguistics/world-sounds/
>>>>>>>> Similar animated videos are found on the ArticulatoryIPA YouTube
>>>>>>>> site: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuOKJqD00W2EiC3DHmOuu0g
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For a list of correspondences between IPA and the Sanskrit
>>>>>>>> syllabary, you may consult Andrew Ollett’s excellent Sanskrit reference
>>>>>>>> grammar (vṛddhiḥ) at the Univ. of Chicago, here:
>>>>>>>> http://prakrit.info/vrddhi/grammar/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am also currently making youtube videos that you can find if
>>>>>>>> search for UBC Sanskrit on Youtube. These may or may not be useful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With all best wishes,
>>>>>>>> Adheesh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> —
>>>>>>>> Adheesh Sathaye
>>>>>>>> University of British Columbia
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 22, 2021, at 04:56, Mārcis Gasūns via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Is there something like this for Sanskrit (taken from
>>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.503070/page/99/mode/2up)?
>>>>>>>> The closes I've seen is
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_phonology but it has not
>>>>>>>> pictures, only a vowel chart.
>>>>>>>>   Does
>>>>>>>> https://archive.org/details/ACriticalStudyOfSanskritPhonetics_Mishra/img167_2R.jpg remains
>>>>>>>> the only book on Sanskrit phonetics?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Marcis
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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