[INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta
Rolf Heinrich Koch
rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com
Thu May 13 11:03:28 UTC 2021
Here the pdf link of the article in German
http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/94188
Best
Rolf Heinrich Koch
Am 13.05.2021 um 11:28 schrieb alakendu das via INDOLOGY:
> Dr.Dieter Schlingloff,
>
> Is your book anyway available with an English version? Even a PDF copy
> of those particular pgs 536-551 would be of immense help to me.
>
> Alakendu Das
>
>
>
>
> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>
>
>
>
> From: Dieter Schlingloff <dieter at schlingloff.de>
> Sent: Thu, 13 May 2021 14:22:45 GMT+0530
> To: indology at list.indology.info
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta
>
> Dear all,
> in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, /Zur Interpretation des
> Pratimoksasutra/, p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that
> the Buddhist Pratimoksa/sutra/ (in its oldest form) is the earliest
> Buddhist text at all. This text is a real /thread/, a guide to korrekt
> behaviour for Buddhist monks. From this guide book, the term was taken
> over to the following texts concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas.
> Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff.
> Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY:
>> CAANHO17BmPP8s+eBK6mUJet_ND4FYGKwsrjunpfcmSgPXjAoBg at mail.gmail.com">
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that
>> might be relevant to this discussion:
>>
>> * Paul Dundas (“Somnolent Sūtras: Scriptural Commentary in
>> Śvetāmbara Jainism," /Journal of Indian Philosophy/ 24: 73–101,
>> 1996) says the following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources):
>> o The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary
>> upon it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated
>> upon the acceptance of meaning as being superior to word.
>> This can be seen clearly from the standard Jain etymology for
>> the term “sūtra” which would derive it from the root sūc,
>> “indicate.” A sūtra “indicates” many meanings which the
>> teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the
>> sense from the root text in the same manner as a potter
>> creates shapes from a lump of clay.
>> * Mari Jvyärsjärvi (“Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain
>> Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,” /Journal of
>> Indian Philosophy /38.2: 133–162, 2010), cites Saṅghadāsa’s
>> commentary on the /Br̥hatkalpa /(p. 138):
>> o Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or sūtra has a double
>> meaning [ 'sūtra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because
>> it indicates [sūcana] the meaning, or is well-spoken
>> [sūkta]. These are its etymologies: it 'indicates' or it
>> 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.' These are
>> the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. Sūtra
>> is like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened"
>> by meaning,
>> it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that
>> have] double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A
>> needle, even when broken, can be traced by the thread as long
>> as it is threaded. Likewise meaning [is pointed out] by the
>> sūtra. It 'sews together' words and meanings like a thread
>> [sews together] jackets and so on.13
>> * The name of one of the older texts in the Śvētāmbara canon,
>> Sūyagaḍa-, is often rendered as Sūtrakr̥ta-, but the first part
>> doesn't correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word
>> sūtra-. Willem Bollée suggested that it might come from
>> *sūca-kr̥ta- or *sūca-gata- (in his glossary to /Studien zum
>> Sūyagaḍa/, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the Sanskrit word /sūcā/.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett
>> <andrew.ollett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just
>> cite the following verse that is included in the "late canonical"
>> Anuyōgadvāra of the Śvētāmbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of
>> Jambūvijayajī's edition):
>>
>> Sūtram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., śruta, learning):
>> suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-sāsaṇē āṇa-vayaṇa-uvadēsē
>> paṇṇavaṇa-āgamē yā ēgaṭṭhā pajjavā-suttē
>>
>> Cūrṇiḥ of Jinadāsa: gurūhiṁ aṇakkhātaṁ jamhā ṇō bujjhati tamhā
>> pāsuttasamaṁ suttaṁ (i.e. deriving /sutta/- from /supta-/)
>> Vivr̥tiḥ of Haribhadra: sūcanāt sūtram.
>> Vr̥tti of Hēmacandra: arthānāṁ sūcanāt sūtram.
>>
>> The idea of taking /suttam/ from the verbal root √/sūc /is clever
>> (via something like /sūk-tra-/), but of course √/sūc /is
>> secondary from √/sū/ (via the noun /sū-cī́-/), so maybe it
>> doesn't work.
>>
>> Sanskrit of uktá- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic
>> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under
>> the influence of Sanskrit at a later period.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus
>> <lusthaus at g.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Dominik,
>>
>> The Aṅguttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would
>> appear to pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what
>> became three piṭakas (abhidhamma had yet to appear).
>> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one)
>> this way.
>>
>> “Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ‘In the presence of the
>> Blessed One I heard this; in his presence I learned this:
>> “This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the
>> Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement should neither
>> be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it,
>> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then
>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the
>> discipline.{893} If, when you check for them in the
>> discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that]
>> they are not included among the discourses and are not to be
>> seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion:
>> ‘Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the
>> Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly
>> learned by this bhikkhu.’ Thus you should discard it.
>>
>> “But a bhikkhu might say: ‘In the presence of the Blessed One
>> I heard this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the
>> Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher’s
>> teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement should neither be
>> approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you
>> should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then
>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the
>> discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and
>> seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are
>> included among the discourses and are to be seen in the
>> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is
>> the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly
>> Enlightened One. It has been learned well by this bhikkhu.’
>> You should remember this first great reference.
>>
>> Bhikkhu Bodhi’s note {893} is interesting:
>> Tāni padabyañjanāni . . . sutte otāretabbāni vinaye
>> sandassetabbāni. Mp gives various meanings of sutte and
>> vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, this instruction
>> presupposes that there already existed a body of discourses
>> and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other
>> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the
>> Buddha. Otāretabbāni is gerundive plural of otārenti, “make
>> descend, put down or put into,” and otaranti, just below,
>> means “descend, come down, go into.” My renderings,
>> respectively, as “check for them” and “are included among”
>> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabbāni is gerundive
>> plural of sandassenti, “show, make seen,” and sandissanti
>> means “are seen.”
>>
>> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds
>> the commentaries unhelpful or misleading.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY
>>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is
>>> in the singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than
>>> "texts". (I'm not on secure ground here; my Pali grammar
>>> is a bit rusty.)
>>>
>>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me
>>> that sutta could be *<sūkta . But I'd like to note that he
>>> wasn't dogmatic about it. It was represented as a possibility.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Dominik
>>>
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--
Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com
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