[INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt

Mon May 10 14:25:29 UTC 2021

Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties),

I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not
"searchable" unfortunately.

Best,
Caley

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Joanna,
> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or
> pdf...
> No result on archive.org either.
> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such a
> scan and can share it...
> Best regards,
> Jan
>
> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks.
>>
>>  Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over a
>> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also
>> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of
>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers...
>>
>> best wishes,
>>
>> Joanna
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>>
>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>>
>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>>
>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>>
>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>>
>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland
>>
>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>>
>> College of Human Sciences
>>
>> UNISA
>>
>> Pretoria, RSA
>>
>> Member of Academia Europaea
>>
>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>
>>
>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>
>>> Dear Artur,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic
>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc.
>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published
>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this
>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s
>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I
>>> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking
>>> about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic
>>> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One
>>> Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yajña Between
>>> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization
>>> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as
>>> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and
>>> Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch)
>>>
>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic
>>> performativity/textuality (
>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas
>>> )
>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through
>>> that specific context
>>> (
>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice
>>> )
>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Caley
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Caley,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you,
>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Artur
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>> <#m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>
>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <smith.caley at gmail.com>
>>>> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Artur,
>>>>>
>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict
>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers
>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind
>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta
>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one
>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as
>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the
>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much
>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case
>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual
>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen,
>>>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say
>>>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are
>>>>> focused on a society made of  generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed
>>>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to
>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a
>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual
>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is
>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative
>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean
>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write
>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine
>>>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban
>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic
>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from
>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political
>>>>> organizations that employed them.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic
>>>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the
>>>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that
>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal
>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and
>>>>> would love to know more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Caley
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist
>>>>>> (Caley:  <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic
>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible
>>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal
>>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of
>>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these
>>>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in
>>>>>> the Vedic tradition?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com
>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>>> <#m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Jan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's
>>>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my
>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a
>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all.
>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were
>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam
>>>>>>> to the troubadours of Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in
>>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting.
>>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly.
>>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred
>>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords
>>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the
>>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this
>>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about
>>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the
>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course
>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that
>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for
>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to
>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically
>>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives
>>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which
>>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis
>>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the
>>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and
>>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban
>>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more
>>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now,
>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I am
>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that
>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we are
>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and
>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic
>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than
>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely
>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Caley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking
>>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic
>>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement (
>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several
>>>>>>>> lists.
>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at
>>>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive
>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched
>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of
>>>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) --   Johannes Bronkhorst referred
>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and
>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference
>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the
>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and
>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do."
>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not
>>>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions --
>>>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such
>>>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such
>>>>>>>> as this Indology List.
>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha*
>>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the
>>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have
>>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp.
>>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere),
>>>>>>>> where we read:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not
>>>>>>>> like them.
>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third
>>>>>>>> Reich.
>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of
>>>>>>>> German Art
>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted
>>>>>>>> urban and
>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a
>>>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing
>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me
>>>>>>>> in:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the
>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās:
>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic
>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M.
>>>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be
>>>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible
>>>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation
>>>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural
>>>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of
>>>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts,
>>>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present
>>>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an
>>>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also:
>>>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of
>>>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013).
>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001:
>>>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in
>>>>>>>> the history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La
>>>>>>>> rationalité en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst:
>>>>>>>> 165-194.
>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019:
>>>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and
>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and
>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic
>>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh
>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M.
>>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id.,
>>>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books
>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful
>>>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée:
>>>>>>>> construction, transmission
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>
> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction,
> transmission
>
> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>
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