[INDOLOGY] is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: Tamil odiolai and mollakkol

Mon May 10 03:49:38 UTC 2021

Dear VSR,

thanks a lot for your clarification,
/*தென்னங்கீற்று* ஓலைகள் (from coconut trees)/
which I find upon waking up this morning on this side of the Atlantic 
ocean, although it would nevertheless take one hour to fly to the Ocean :-)

Yesterday, before going to bed, I had also sent a message to our common 
friend Sharmila Ganesan (whom I know thanks to you :-)

She had also replied to me she thought it was thennai olai and that she 
would make further verifications.

This morning I had another message from her which she sent after 
consulting with Prof Selvakumar of Tamil University, Thanjai
and he also says it appears to be thennai olai.

His inputs:

Odi = மடி fold

He refers to this blog:
https://ilupeju.blogspot.com/2009/11/divine-labour-ward.html

He also sent a Ph.D. on the topic,
which I shall forward privately to you, to Herman and to Srilata because 
I am not sure how well the PDF would go on the mailing list server

The thesis title page says

**********************+
UC San Diego
UC San Diego Electronic Theses and Dissertations
Title
Casting Selves: Tradition, Practice, and Ethics in an Artisan Community 
in India
Permalink
https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3vc1k17m
Author
Balaswaminathan, Sowparnika
Publication Date
2018
Peer reviewed|Thesis/dissertation
****************

I am glad we are having this exchange

I really love to learn how things are made :-)

அன்புடன்

-- Jean-Luc (in Müssen)

https://twitter.com/JLC1956

On 09/05/2021 19:06, rajam wrote:
> Dear JLC,
> 
> To your nice question ...
> 
> /// I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as 
> measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for 
> writing?/// …
> 
> My quick reply:
> 
> My reading from https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html 
> <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html> 
> <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html 
> <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html>> is that the 
> leaves used for the measurement  of making bronze idols are *தென்னங்கீற்று* 
> ஓலைகள் (from coconut trees) which are different from *பனை* ஓலைகள் (from 
> palmyra trees) that I suppose were/are used for writing.
> 
> I’ll share more information if/when I get them.
> 
> Best wishes,
> VSR
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 8, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard 
>> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr 
>> <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Herman,
>> Dear VSR,
>> dear Srilata,
>> dear all,
>>
>> being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice.
>>
>> I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by 
>> seeing this picture and its caption
>> (I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but 
>> it is reachable via the links)
>>
>> Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax 
>> model of a god
>>
>> This is from a document available on Research gate
>>
>> Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India
>> January 2007
>> Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, 
>> A., Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr.
>> Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project
>>
>> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India 
>> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India>
>>
>> The Research gate link was provided in this thread
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ
>>
>> on the தமிழ் மன்றம் mailing list by தேமொழி
>>
>> I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf
>>
>> I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as 
>> measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing?
>>
>> Herman, are you writing  review of this 2007 book?
>>
>> Best wishes to all
>>
>> -- Jean-Luc (in Müssen)
>>
>>
>> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
>>
>>
>>
>> On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>> Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman.
>>> It’s interesting … மொழம் (mozham or moḻam, however we transcribe it) 
>>> is the length of measurement from one’s elbow up to the tip of the 
>>> middle finger. So, the length of this முழம்/மொழம் would vary depending 
>>> upon the person who’s doing the measurement. For example, my 
>>> muzham/mozham/moḻam is about 16-inches. Others’ may vary.
>>> So, I’m curious about the measurements used in śilpa śāstra texts. 
>>> I’ll keep exploring.
>>> Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman.
>>> Regards,
>>> rajam
>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman <s.raman at utoronto.ca 
>>>> <mailto:s.raman at utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken,
>>>> Exactly. The stick (கோல்) is the length of one மொழம் which, as you and 
>>>> I know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to 
>>>> measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today.
>>>> With regards,
>>>> Srilata Raman
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>
>>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY 
>>>>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:*
>>>>> Dear Professor Tieken,
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d analyze “oṭiōlai” as oṭi + ōlai (ஒடி + ஓலை; a வினைத்தொகை 
>>>>> vinaittokai); roughly translated … ‘*snapped* palm leaf’
>>>>>
>>>>> “oṭi" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning 
>>>>> of “ oṭi* ” in TL.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* 
>>>>> of “oṭi” as in “odiolai."
>>>>>
>>>>> The rendition ‘mollakkol’ reflects the aberration from written to 
>>>>> spoken versions of the language: முழக்கோல் > மொழக்கோல் > மொளக்கோல்
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> rajam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. 
>>>>>> <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl 
>>>>>> <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Dr. Rajam,
>>>>>> Thank you very much for the information. muḻakkōl is mentioned in 
>>>>>> the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, oṭi 
>>>>>> ōlai is not, so the meaning of oṭi is still not clear to me. But I 
>>>>>> know now how the word is to be written: oṭi with short o, not ōṭi.
>>>>>> With kind regards, Herman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>>>> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> *Van:*rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>>
>>>>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40
>>>>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H.
>>>>>> *CC:*indology
>>>>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol
>>>>>> Dear Professor Tieken,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first 
>>>>>> part -- “odi” — in “odiolai” could mean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html 
>>>>>> <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> சுவாமிமலையில் அமைக்கப்படும் மெழுகு வடிவங்களுக்கு ஒரு சிறப்பு உண்டு. 
>>>>>> சிலையின் அளவுகள் தென்னங்கீற்று ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பகுதியாகப் பிரித்து 
>>>>>> கணக்கிடப்படுகின்றன.*இந்த ஓலை அளவு பிரமாணத்தை சுவாமிமலை**முழக் கோல்*என்று 
>>>>>> அழைப்போம்.
>>>>>> தற்போது சுவாமிமலையில் வழக்கத்தில் உள்ள ஓலை அளவு நவ*தாள*அளவு -*ஒன்பது ஒடி 
>>>>>> அளவு, பஞ்ச தாள அளவு ஐந்து ஒடி அளவு*ஆகிய இரண்டு அளவுகள் மட்டும் பயன்பாட்டில் 
>>>>>> உள்ளன. ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: சிவன், விஷ்ணு, 
>>>>>> பெண் தெய்வங்கள், மற்ற தெய்வ வடிவங்கள்.
>>>>>> ஐந்து பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: விநாயகர், பூத கணங்கள், குழந்தை 
>>>>>> வடிவச் சிலைகள்.
>>>>>> மேற்படி அளவு முறைகளில் தியான சுலோகங்களின்படி சிற்பிகள் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையையும் 
>>>>>> மெழுகினால் வடிக்கின்றனர். தியான சுலோகங்களில் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையின் அமைப்பும் 
>>>>>> விளக்கமாக விவரிக்கப்படுகின்றது.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> sorry, at the moment I don’t have sufficient time to translate the 
>>>>>> above reference-passage for a general audience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> rajam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY 
>>>>>>> <indology at list.indology.info 
>>>>>>> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear List Members,
>>>>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in 
>>>>>>> Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, 
>>>>>>> mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is 
>>>>>>> ōlai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part?
>>>>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part 
>>>>>>> of which is most probably kōl, "yardstick". But here too: what is 
>>>>>>> the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to 
>>>>>>> make of odi and molla.
>>>>>>> Kind regards, Herman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>>>>> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology 
>>>>>>> <https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology 
>>>>> <https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>
>> <Odi-olai.png>
> 