[INDOLOGY] is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: Tamil odiolai and mollakkol

Sun May 9 07:57:05 UTC 2021

Dear Rajam,

as to oṭi, "snapped", I think you are right. In the picture supplied by Jean-Luc the leaf has been divided into sections. DED sub oṭi mentions, for Malayāl̥am, "division or range of ricefields".

Jean-Luc, as to your question if I am reviewing the publication you mention, I am not. I stick to classical Tamil literature,

With kind regards, Herman

Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Verzonden: zondag 9 mei 2021 08:43:38
Aan: rajam; Srilata Raman; Tieken, H.J.H.
CC: indology
Onderwerp: is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol

Dear Herman,
Dear VSR,
dear Srilata,
dear all,

being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice.

I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by
seeing this picture and its caption
(I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but it
is reachable via the links)

Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax
model of a god

This is from a document available on Research gate

Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India
January 2007
Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, A.,
Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr.
Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India

The Research gate link was provided in this thread

https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ

on the தமிழ் மன்றம் mailing list by தேமொழி

I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf

I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as
measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing?

Herman, are you writing  review of this 2007 book?

Best wishes to all

-- Jean-Luc (in Müssen)

https://twitter.com/JLC1956

On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote:
> Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman.
>
> It’s interesting … மொழம் (mozham or moḻam, however we transcribe it) is
> the length of measurement from one’s elbow up to the tip of the middle
> finger. So, the length of this முழம்/மொழம் would vary depending upon the
> person who’s doing the measurement. For example, my muzham/mozham/moḻam
> is about 16-inches. Others’ may vary.
>
> So, I’m curious about the measurements used in śilpa śāstra texts. I’ll
> keep exploring.
>
> Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman.
>
> Regards,
> rajam
>
>
>> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman <s.raman at utoronto.ca
>> <mailto:s.raman at utoronto.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken,
>> Exactly. The stick (கோல்) is the length of one மொழம் which, as you and I
>> know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to
>> measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today.
>> With regards,
>> Srilata Raman
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY
>>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:*
>>> Dear Professor Tieken,
>>>
>>> I’d analyze “oṭiōlai” as oṭi + ōlai (ஒடி + ஓலை; a வினைத்தொகை
>>> vinaittokai); roughly translated … ‘*snapped* palm leaf’
>>>
>>> “oṭi" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of
>>> “ oṭi* ” in TL.
>>>
>>> I’ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* of
>>> “oṭi” as in “odiolai."
>>>
>>> The rendition ‘mollakkol’ reflects the aberration from written to
>>> spoken versions of the language: முழக்கோல் > மொழக்கோல் > மொளக்கோல்
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> rajam
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H.
>>>> <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl
>>>> <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Dr. Rajam,
>>>> Thank you very much for the information. muḻakkōl is mentioned in
>>>> the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, oṭi ōlai
>>>> is not, so the meaning of oṭi is still not clear to me. But I know
>>>> now how the word is to be written: oṭi with short o, not ōṭi.
>>>> With kind regards, Herman
>>>>
>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>> The Netherlands
>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *Van:*rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>>
>>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40
>>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H.
>>>> *CC:*indology
>>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol
>>>> Dear Professor Tieken,
>>>>
>>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first
>>>> part -- “odi” — in “odiolai” could mean.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html
>>>> <https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html>
>>>>
>>>> சுவாமிமலையில் அமைக்கப்படும் மெழுகு வடிவங்களுக்கு ஒரு சிறப்பு உண்டு. சிலையின்
>>>> அளவுகள் தென்னங்கீற்று ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பகுதியாகப் பிரித்து கணக்கிடப்படுகின்றன.*இந்த
>>>> ஓலை அளவு பிரமாணத்தை சுவாமிமலை**முழக் கோல்*என்று அழைப்போம்.
>>>> தற்போது சுவாமிமலையில் வழக்கத்தில் உள்ள ஓலை அளவு நவ*தாள*அளவு -*ஒன்பது ஒடி
>>>> அளவு, பஞ்ச தாள அளவு ஐந்து ஒடி அளவு*ஆகிய இரண்டு அளவுகள் மட்டும் பயன்பாட்டில்
>>>> உள்ளன. ஓலையில் ஒன்பது பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: சிவன், விஷ்ணு,
>>>> பெண் தெய்வங்கள், மற்ற தெய்வ வடிவங்கள்.
>>>> ஐந்து பாகங்களாகப் பிரித்து அமைக்கும் சிலைகள்: விநாயகர், பூத கணங்கள், குழந்தை
>>>> வடிவச் சிலைகள்.
>>>> மேற்படி அளவு முறைகளில் தியான சுலோகங்களின்படி சிற்பிகள் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையையும்
>>>> மெழுகினால் வடிக்கின்றனர். தியான சுலோகங்களில் ஒவ்வொரு சிலையின் அமைப்பும்
>>>> விளக்கமாக விவரிக்கப்படுகின்றது.
>>>>
>>>> sorry, at the moment I don’t have sufficient time to translate the
>>>> above reference-passage for a general audience.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY
>>>>> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear List Members,
>>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in
>>>>> Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil,
>>>>> mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is
>>>>> ōlai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part?
>>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part
>>>>> of which is most probably kōl, "yardstick". But here too: what is
>>>>> the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make
>>>>> of odi and molla.
>>>>> Kind regards, Herman
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>>> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>> <https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>
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