From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Sat May 1 08:06:43 2021 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 08:06:43 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esoteric Buddhism in Central Asia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F640103-7C98-4F5E-A502-200E27F38DBE@uclouvain.be> A lot of stuff in this HdO 2011 volume: Le 1 mai 2021 ? 00:18, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > a ?crit : Dear Paolo, Michelle Wang, Ma??alas in the Making? The Visual Culture of Esoteric Buddhism at Dunhuang? is the work I would now recommend. It includes very thorough references to the earlier relevant scholarship. hope this is useful, Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 11:46:16 PM To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esoteric Buddhism in Central Asia Dear All, I wish you all are safe and well during this endless global pandemic. Anyone can point out a few articles on Esoteric Buddhism in connection with Silk Road's sites and particularly with Eastern centres (such as Dunhuang). I am very interested in articles based on iconographic developments (from the Indian subcontinent to Central Asia). Best wishes, Paolo -- Paolo E. Rosati PhD in Asian and African Studies https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloERosati/ paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Esoteric_Buddhism_and_the_Tantras_in_East_Asia Henrik_H._S?rensen,_Richard_K._Payne_Edited_by_Charles_D._Orzech Brill_TM.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 290376 bytes Desc: Esoteric_Buddhism_and_the_Tantras_in_East_Asia Henrik_H._S?rensen,_Richard_K._Payne_Edited_by_Charles_D._Orzech Brill_TM.pdf URL: From andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr Sat May 1 08:24:44 2021 From: andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr (Andrea Acri) Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 10:24:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esoteric Buddhism in Central Asia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Paolo, besides the excellent resources that were just recommended by other colleagues, you may have a look at the recent article by the late Yuri Khokhlov (who untimely passed away just a few weeks ago): "Uncovering Amoghavajra's Legacy in the Hexi Corridor and Tibet?', Zangxue xuekan ????/Journal of Tibetology 21 (2019): 48?133, Beijing: China Tibetology Publishing House. Available on https://www.academia.edu/42179583/Uncovering_Amoghavajras_legacy_in_the_Hexi_Corridor_and_Tibet A thoroughly revised version of the article will appear (as ?In the Footsteps of Amoghavajra (705?774): Southern Indian Artistic Mode in Tang China and its Transmission to Tibet?) in a volume edited by Peter Sharrock and myself, hopefully before the end of the current year. Best, Andrea > Le 30 avr. 2021 ? 23:46, Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY a ?crit : > > Dear All, > > I wish you all are safe and well during this endless global pandemic. Anyone can point out a few articles on Esoteric Buddhism in connection with Silk Road's sites and particularly with Eastern centres (such as Dunhuang). I am very interested in articles based on iconographic developments (from the Indian subcontinent to Central Asia). > > Best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > Paolo E. Rosati > PhD in Asian and African Studies > https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo ER osati/ > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sun May 2 09:16:28 2021 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 11:16:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Esoteric Buddhism in Central Asia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for pointing out Khokhlov's article! Best, Paolo Il giorno sab 1 mag 2021 alle ore 10:24 Andrea Acri < andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr> ha scritto: > Dear Paolo, > > besides the excellent resources that were just recommended by other > colleagues, you may have a look at the recent article by the late Yuri > Khokhlov (who untimely passed away just a few weeks ago): > > "Uncovering Amoghavajra's Legacy in the Hexi Corridor and Tibet?', Zangxue > xuekan ????/Journal of Tibetology 21 (2019): 48?133, Beijing: China > Tibetology Publishing House. Available on > https://www.academia.edu/42179583/Uncovering_Amoghavajras_legacy_in_the_Hexi_Corridor_and_Tibet > > A thoroughly revised version of the article will appear (as ?In the > Footsteps of Amoghavajra (705?774): Southern Indian Artistic Mode in Tang > China and its Transmission to Tibet?) in a volume edited by Peter Sharrock > and myself, hopefully before the end of the current year. > > Best, > > Andrea > > Le 30 avr. 2021 ? 23:46, Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear All, > > I wish you all are safe and well during this endless global pandemic. > Anyone can point out a few articles on Esoteric Buddhism in connection with > Silk Road's sites and particularly with Eastern centres (such as Dunhuang). > I am very interested in articles based on iconographic developments (from > the Indian subcontinent to Central Asia). > > Best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati* > > *PhD in Asian and African Studies* > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo > **ER > **osati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo **ER **osati/ * paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vbd203 at googlemail.com Sun May 2 09:27:23 2021 From: vbd203 at googlemail.com (victor davella) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 10:27:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?UGFsc3VsZSBvbiBzYeG5g2rDscSBecSBbQ==?= Message-ID: Dear all, Does anyone happen to have a PDF of G. B. Palsule's article "Sa?j??y?m in P??ini", Publications of the Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, 1966? Many thanks in advance! Victor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun May 2 12:35:26 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 05:35:26 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?UGFsc3VsZSBvbiBzYeG5g2rDscSBecSBbQ==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Victor, Here is the article by Palsule that you are looking for. Best wishes, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 2:28 AM victor davella via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > Does anyone happen to have a PDF of G. B. Palsule's article "Sa?j??y?m in > P??ini", Publications of the Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, 1966? > > Many thanks in advance! > > Victor > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Palsule-G-B-Sajn?a?ya?m in Pa?n?ini.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 3911790 bytes Desc: not available URL: From piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com Sun May 2 15:16:12 2021 From: piotrbalcerowicz1 at gmail.com (Piotr Balcerowicz) Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 17:16:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?The_EU-IndiaPeople=E2=80=99s_Summit?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am pleased to draw your attention to an online symposium *The EU-India People?s Summit* (May 1-8, 2021). In order to participate in the symposium, one has tu register at individual topics (Schedule and Themes) https://euindiasummit.com/ or at https://euindiasummit.com/schedule/ ------------------------------------------------------------ *The EU-India People?s Summit* *On 8th May 2021, in the midst of the COVID pandemic, India and the European Union meet virtually to hold their 16th Summit, in which they will take steps to negotiate a free trade agreement. The diplomatic summit is closed to civil society and stakeholders whose future the Summit will influence in the short- and long-term. To understand how these two plural and multicultural democracies can positively engage with each other, we host the first ever People?s Summit from 1-8 May 2021.* *The People?s Summit is a non-partisan, non-bureaucratic festival of ideas. Through panels, fireside conversations, movie screenings, spoken words and workshops, we take a closer look at the core areas of collaboration as documented in the EU-India Strategic Partnership: A Roadmap to 2025 and the 9th EU-India Human Rights Dialogue .* *What results does our Summit produce?* *? With speakers from the European Parliament, domestic politics, academia, civil society, and the private sector, we look ahead to shape the vision for a future that envisages a plural, democratic, secular and rights-based collaboration between EU and India.* *? We give first-hand accounts that strongly support the idea that the future of diplomacy should be embedded in human rights and become progressively open sourced.* *? The Summit discussions will form the People?s Blue-Print of the Roadmap that EU and India relation should take. This will mean stronger commitment to human rights, religious freedom and minority rights in near and far future. * *Our People?s Summit is free of cost and accessible to all.* ----------------------------------------------------------- With best regards, Piotr Balcerowicz ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://balcerowicz.eu/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Mon May 3 15:23:19 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 11:23:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Stahl_of_the_Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9_Asiatique?= Message-ID: <3124be77-5d57-3802-9b69-343cb3eda94c@sas.upenn.edu> Dear colleagues, Might any of you know the first name and lifespan of "Stahl," who succeeded Eug?ne Burnouf as secretary of the Soci?t? Asiatique de Paris?? He seems always to have signed just "Stahl," and references to him seem to be only to "M[onsieur] Stahl." He was a very active member of the Soci?t? Asiatique, but Raymond Schwab does not mention him in /La Renaissance Orientale. / I would be grateful for any pointers, Rosane Rocher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegoloukota at ucla.edu Mon May 3 18:33:50 2021 From: diegoloukota at ucla.edu (DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 13:33:50 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Stahl_of_the_Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9_Asiatique?= In-Reply-To: <3124be77-5d57-3802-9b69-343cb3eda94c@sas.upenn.edu> References: <3124be77-5d57-3802-9b69-343cb3eda94c@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Dear Prof. Rocher, As far as I can ascertain, "Monsieur Stahl" is Charles-Auguste Stahl (see p. 52, point 6 here: http://real-j.mtak.hu/5450/1/CsomaKorosiBulletin_1984-1988.pdf). A different source ( https://archive.org/details/lafacultdeth00gruoft/page/154/mode/2up, pp. 154-155) gives his date of birth as 1799 along with very interesting biographical details, but no date of death. Wishing you good luck in your inquiries and seizing the occasion to express my admiration for your work, *namaskaromi*, Diego On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 10:23 AM Rosane Rocher via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Might any of you know the first name and lifespan of "Stahl," who > succeeded Eug?ne Burnouf as secretary of the Soci?t? Asiatique de Paris? > He seems always to have signed just "Stahl," and references to him seem to > be only to "M[onsieur] Stahl." He was a very active member of the Soci?t? > Asiatique, but Raymond Schwab does not mention him in > *La Renaissance Orientale. * > I would be grateful for any pointers, > Rosane Rocher > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Mon May 3 21:02:51 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Mon, 3 May 2021 17:02:51 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Stahl_of_the_Soci=C3=A9t=C3=A9_Asiatique?= In-Reply-To: References: <3124be77-5d57-3802-9b69-343cb3eda94c@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <4b2f6573-3f6d-cba9-b557-2a487d932732@sas.upenn.edu> Dear friends, Many thanks to all those who answered my query on and off list. You are wonderful colleagues and an amazing group. I am tempted to impute Stahl's avoidance of even initials to the need he would have had to choose between two languages in what was a politically thorny situation. In gratitude and with best wishes, Rosane On 5/3/21 2:33 PM, DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE wrote: > > Dear Prof. Rocher, > > ? As far as I can ascertain, "Monsieur Stahl" is Charles-Auguste Stahl > (see p. 52, point 6 here: > http://real-j.mtak.hu/5450/1/CsomaKorosiBulletin_1984-1988.pdf > ). A > different source > (https://archive.org/details/lafacultdeth00gruoft/page/154/mode/2up > , > pp. 154-155) gives his date of birth as 1799 along with very > interesting biographical details, butno date of death. > ? Wishing you good luck in your inquiries and seizing the occasion to > express my admiration for your work, > > /namaskaromi/, > > ? Diego > > > > > > On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 10:23 AM Rosane Rocher via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > Might any of you know the first name and lifespan of "Stahl," who > succeeded Eug?ne Burnouf as secretary of the Soci?t? Asiatique de > Paris?? He seems always to have signed just "Stahl," and > references to him seem to be only to "M[onsieur] Stahl." He was a > very active member of the Soci?t? Asiatique, but Raymond Schwab > does not mention him in /La Renaissance Orientale. > / > I would be grateful for any pointers, > Rosane Rocher > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu Tue May 4 14:07:14 2021 From: finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu (Finnian Moore-Gerety) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 10:07:14 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] OM, Brahmans and early yoga Message-ID: Dear colleagues? I?d like to draw your attention to the new issue of History of Religions (vol. 60, no. 3 February 2021), which features my article ?Between Sound and Silence in Early Yoga: Meditation on ?Om? at Death.? Pushing back against Johannes Bronkhorst?s contention that Brahmans played no role in the formation of early yoga, this article examines a mantra-based contemplative praxis that was central to Brahmanical constructions of yoga from the late Veda up through Pata?jali and beyond. I hope my contribution will be of interest to list-members?especially in light of the upcoming online symposium at the University of Alberta on Bronkhorst?s Greater Magadha hypothesis. Yours, Finnian Abstract This article examines the history of yoga with attention to mantras and sacred sound. It argues that meditation on the syllable ?om? at the moment of death, which is central to the construction of early yoga, has roots in a much older technique from Vedic sacrifice called the ?yoking? (yukti). In this rite, the practitioner employs a contemplative praxis with om in order to ascend to the sun and attain immortality. Sacrifice thus furnishes an ancient link in the chain of Indian soteriologies associated with om, death, and solar ascent?a genealogy that extends from the Vedas up through foundational yogic discourses. By examining the interplay between sound and silence in contemplative practices around the sacred syllable, this article aims to explain how om first became integral to early yoga, to emphasize the importance of mantra meditation in the formation of yogic traditions, and to invite a reappraisal of the role of Brahmans in the formation of early yoga. Finnian M.M. Gerety Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies [Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for Contemporary South Asia Brown University www.finniangerety.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markasha at gmail.com Tue May 4 14:51:13 2021 From: markasha at gmail.com (Mark McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 10:51:13 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] OM, Brahmans and early yoga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Finnian, I am very excited to read your article. I cover some of the same territory (though likely much more broadly) in an article on *sam?dhi *burial practice coming out this month in *Journal of Hindu Studies*. I'm certain your work in this article will be very helpful as I push forward on the book project. All best to you and congrats on the article. Mark On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:07 AM Finnian Moore-Gerety via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues? > I?d like to draw your attention to the new issue of *History of Religions > *(vol. 60, no. 3 February 2021), which features my article ?Between Sound > and Silence in Early Yoga: Meditation on ?Om? at Death.? > Pushing back > against Johannes Bronkhorst?s contention that Brahmans played no role in > the formation of early yoga, this article examines a mantra-based > contemplative praxis that was central to Brahmanical constructions of yoga > from the late Veda up through Pata?jali and beyond. I hope my contribution > will be of interest to list-members?especially in light of the upcoming > online symposium at the University of Alberta on Bronkhorst?s Greater > Magadha hypothesis. > > Yours, > Finnian > > *Abstract* > This article examines the history of yoga with attention to mantras and > sacred sound. It argues that meditation on the syllable ?*om*? at the > moment of death, which is central to the construction of early yoga, has > roots in a much older technique from Vedic sacrifice called the ?yoking? ( > *yukti*). In this rite, the practitioner employs a contemplative praxis > with *om* in order to ascend to the sun and attain immortality. Sacrifice > thus furnishes an ancient link in the chain of Indian soteriologies > associated with *om*, death, and solar ascent?a genealogy that extends > from the Vedas up through foundational yogic discourses. By examining the > interplay between sound and silence in contemplative practices around the > sacred syllable, this article aims to explain how *om* first became > integral to early yoga, to emphasize the importance of mantra meditation in > the formation of yogic traditions, and to invite a reappraisal of the role > of Brahmans in the formation of early yoga. > > Finnian M.M. Gerety > Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies > [Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for > Contemporary South Asia > Brown University > www.finniangerety.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Mark McLaughlin, PhD *Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions* *Department of Religious StudiesWilliam & MaryWilliamsburg, VA* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue May 4 18:59:00 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 20:59:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new article in the electronic Journal of Indian Medicine Message-ID: Dear All, Recently the following article has become available in the electronic Journal of Indian Medicine: "On the Textual History of the Su?rutasa?hit? (1): A Study of Three Nepalese Manuscripts" by Andrey Klebanov DOI: https://doi.org/10.21827/ejim.12.1.37385 *** *** *** N.B. >From "About the Journal": eJIM, the eJournal of Indian medicine, is a multidisciplinary periodical founded in 2007 by Jan Meulenbeld (1928 - 2016) and Roelf Barkhuis that publishes studies on traditional South Asian medical traditions by qualified scholars in philology, medicine, pharmacology, botany, anthropology and sociology. Authors from India, Sri Lanka and adjoining countries are cordially invited to contribute. eJIM specifically encourages original approaches with fresh perspectives and daring methodologies to discussions in the abovementioned fields. eJIM is an Open Access publication and makes no charge either to authors or to readers. All articles and the Archives can be accessed without registration. Registered users, however, will be notified by email on publication of an issue of the journal, new books, or news items. *** *** *** -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaron.sherraden at gmail.com Tue May 4 20:11:54 2021 From: aaron.sherraden at gmail.com (Aaron Sherraden) Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 16:11:54 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?TGF2LUt1xZsgS8SB4bmH4biN?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I am curious about the *Lav-Ku? K???* that appears in some editions of the *R?mcaritm?nas *(e.g., I have personally seen it in the 1969 ?ik?? Granth?g?r edition and in R.C. Prasad's translation done through Motilal Banarsidass; I'm sure there are others). The history of this curious part of the text has so far eluded me and I'm hoping that this list can steer me in the right direction. I would be grateful for any suggestions on how to find out more about this section's relationship to the larger text. Best wishes, Aaron -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Wed May 5 05:05:26 2021 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:35:26 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padachandrika volume 2 scan Message-ID: Namaste, Does anyone have the scan of the following work? I would appreciate it a lot if it can be shared off list or on list. Padacandrik? (a commentary on the N?mali?g?nu??sanam of Amara) by R?yamuku?a Volume Two Edited by Kali Kumar Dutta, Sastri, Sanskrit College, Calcutta, 1973 -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Wed May 5 13:09:59 2021 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 08:09:59 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?TGF2LUt1xZsgS8SB4bmH4biN?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Aaron (if I may), There is, to my knowledge, little to no writing on this, so the following are the most basic of leads (and I'm afraid may not be that helpful) but here goes: You may already know that the earliest textual history of the *R?macaritam?nas* was published by Mataprasad Gupta in his *Tulas?d?s : eka sam?locan?tmak adhyayan *(1942); he of course doesn't mention the *Lavaku?ak???*. Imre Banga at Oxford has recently been revisiting the textual history of the *R?macaritam?nas*; he may have some leads. Biographical and bibliographical information for the scholar and translator Pandit Ramanarayan Pandey may provide some leads; he edited one of the editions containing the *Lavaku?ak??? *and was incidentally a prolific translator into Avadhi/Hindi from Bengali. On that eastern connection, the *Lava-Ku?a *narrative enjoys wider circulation in Bengal and Orissa than it does in Avadh; though I'm only speculating on a possible connection here, you may want to look at William Smith's ?Variants of the Lavaku?op?khy?na? In *Categorization and Interpretation.* All best for the search, Tyler Williams UChicago On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 3:13 PM Aaron Sherraden via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear list members, > > I am curious about the *Lav-Ku? K???* that appears in some editions of > the *R?mcaritm?nas *(e.g., I have personally seen it in the 1969 ?ik?? > Granth?g?r edition and in R.C. Prasad's translation done through Motilal > Banarsidass; I'm sure there are others). The history of this curious part > of the text has so far eluded me and I'm hoping that this list can steer me > in the right direction. I would be grateful for any suggestions on how to > find out more about this section's relationship to the larger text. > > Best wishes, > Aaron > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz Wed May 5 13:36:46 2021 From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?UTF-8?B?THVib23DrXIgT25kcmHEjWth?=) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 15:36:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?TGF2LUt1xZsgS8SB4bmH4biN?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210505153646.5d277aa37934373394912f8e@ff.cuni.cz> > you may want to look at William Smith's ?Variants of the Lavaku?op?khy?na? In *Categorization and Interpretation.* Just a little correction: the article is titled "Variants of the Ku?alavop?khy?na". L. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SMITH WL (1999) Variants of the Ku?alavop?khy?na.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 936027 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tylerwwilliams at gmail.com Wed May 5 15:14:11 2021 From: tylerwwilliams at gmail.com (Tyler Williams) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 10:14:11 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?TGF2LUt1xZsgS8SB4bmH4biN?= In-Reply-To: <20210505153646.5d277aa37934373394912f8e@ff.cuni.cz> References: <20210505153646.5d277aa37934373394912f8e@ff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: Ah, thank you Lubom?r! Mea culpa. Best, TWW On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 8:36 AM Lubom?r Ondra?ka wrote: > > you may want to look at William Smith's ?Variants of the > Lavaku?op?khy?na? In *Categorization and Interpretation.* > > Just a little correction: the article is titled "Variants of the > Ku?alavop?khy?na". > > L. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.raman at utoronto.ca Wed May 5 20:23:17 2021 From: s.raman at utoronto.ca (Srilata Raman) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 20:23:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Religion Compass Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am sharing this call for articles from my colleague Barton Scott with you in the event that there might be some of you who might be interested in contributing to the journal Religion Compass or knowing about the articles which fall within its purview. with kind regards, Srilata Raman, Associate Professor of Hinduism, University of Toronto Dear Colleagues, I want to make sure folks know about all the great writing appearing in Religion Compass. I have been busily curating a set of essays that shed fresh light on various themes in South Asian religions. In recent months, we have published Banu Subramaniam on COVID and Hindu nationalism, Brian Hatcher on publics and polities, Marko Geslani on the reception of Said, Deonnie Moodie on corporate Hinduism, Sonja Thomas on race and religion, Anand Venkatkrishnan on minority histories of Sanskrit, and the Feminist Critical Hindu Studies Collective (Shreena Gandhi, Harshita Kamath, Sailaja Krishnamurti, Tanisha Ramachandran, and Shana Sippy) on the intersection of caste, gender, race, and religion. In the coming year, we have essays in the works on Islamic modernism, South Asian 'ulama cultures, Dalit religion, guru studies, religion in Bangladesh, monastic institutions, disease in premodern India, premodern Hindus and Muslims, and Vedanta studies. Please keep an eye out for these pieces and more! If your institution does not subscribe to Religion Compass, I'm very happy to provide PDFs (with the author's permission ). I also want to extend an invitation to anyone who might have a hankering to write a review essay. Religion Compass specializes in essays that synthesize scholarship on a given topic or question and, ideally, push that question forward in creative and interesting ways. Essays are typically between 3000-5000 words long and are peer reviewed. At the "South Asian Religions" section, we welcome "basic model" review essays that take three or so recent monographs and use them to diagnose the state and future of a field, or to bring an exciting, new, or surprising trend into clearer view. We are also open to manifestos, rants, retrospectives, and more?the sky's the limit. Just no original research; there are other places for that. We do review articles, not research articles. If you're interested, please send a short email pitch to barton.scott at utoronto.ca and I will let you know whether we think your proposal is a fit for us. We're excited to be part of the vibrant scholarly conversation here about Religion in South Asia. With best wishes, Barton Assistant Professor of Historical Studies and the Study of Religion, University of Toronto Recent essays: "Mucho Mucho Amor, Mucho Mucho Religion" and "Religion in Lovecraft Country" (The Revealer) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aaron.sherraden at gmail.com Wed May 5 21:39:35 2021 From: aaron.sherraden at gmail.com (Aaron Sherraden) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 17:39:35 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?TGF2LUt1xZsgS8SB4bmH4biN?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear all, I would like to thank everyone who has responded on and off the list. I have a few good places to start gathering some information. Best wishes, Aaron On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 4:11 PM Aaron Sherraden wrote: > Dear list members, > > I am curious about the *Lav-Ku? K???* that appears in some editions of > the *R?mcaritm?nas *(e.g., I have personally seen it in the 1969 ?ik?? > Granth?g?r edition and in R.C. Prasad's translation done through Motilal > Banarsidass; I'm sure there are others). The history of this curious part > of the text has so far eluded me and I'm hoping that this list can steer me > in the right direction. I would be grateful for any suggestions on how to > find out more about this section's relationship to the larger text. > > Best wishes, > Aaron > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pankajaindia at gmail.com Wed May 5 21:47:05 2021 From: pankajaindia at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UHJvZi4gUGFua2FqIEphaW4g4KSq4KSC4KSV4KScIOCknOCliOCkqCwgUGguRC4=?=) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 16:47:05 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Directions in Indic Studies | An Interdisciplinary Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A two-day virtual interdisciplinary conference on ?New Directions in Indic Studies?. The conference will delve deep into topics such as Sanskrit Buddhism, Victorian Indologists, Indian Music, Natya Shastra, History of Indian Philosophy, Jain Studies in the Global Academy, Jain Contribution to Global Civilization, amongst others. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sauthoff at ualberta.ca Thu May 6 00:05:23 2021 From: sauthoff at ualberta.ca (Patricia Sauthoff) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 18:05:23 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Directions in Indic Studies | An Interdisciplinary Conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear esteemed colleagues, New directions in Indic studies is an important and timely topic. I am pleased to see this discussion move forward with a cohort of Indian and Western academics. However, I want to point out two things. First, the gender makeup of this conference is concerning. Of thirteen speakers, only two are women. I implore you all in the future to take note of such demographics and work to form panels with a more equal gender representation. Second, I am saddened to see that Professor Sunaina Singh, vice chancellor of Nalanda University is included in the list of inaugural speakers. As some of you know, my own experience at Nalanda University under Professor Singh's leadership was mired in controversy. Not only did Professor Singh make her issues with my course public, she made comments about me to several journalists of a very personal (and false) nature that did not make it into print. She also blocked me from receiving my final month's salary for the work that I did at the university. In the year after I worked at Nalanda, an atmosphere of fear and censorship was reported in the press, with students feeling trapped, instances of physical abuse, and the mistreatment of foreign academic staff. https://scroll.in/article/854841/it-is-a-closed-place-why-students-are-leaving-nalanda-university I hope that in its new directions, Indic studies can be a safe haven for scholars of all backgrounds to work together rather than one in which academics are lambasted in the press, threatened, and told that their ethnic background disqualifies them from teaching. Patricia Sauthoff On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 3:47 PM Prof. Pankaj Jain ???? ???, Ph.D. via INDOLOGY wrote: > > A two-day virtual interdisciplinary conference on ?New Directions in Indic > Studies?. The conference will delve deep into topics such as Sanskrit > Buddhism, Victorian Indologists, Indian Music, Natya Shastra, History of > Indian Philosophy, Jain Studies in the Global Academy, Jain Contribution to > Global Civilization, amongst others. > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 6 01:47:45 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 5 May 2021 18:47:45 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] My Sanskrit talk Message-ID: This is my rare occasion to give a talk in Sanskrit. I will be giving a talk in Sanskrit on ??????????????? ??????????????????? ["Freedom of Thought in the P??inian Grammatical Tradition"] on May 6 at 7pm [Indian Standard Time]. Here is the link for the talk: https://www.facebook.com/tmv.sanskrit/ Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birendra176 at yahoo.com Thu May 6 08:44:22 2021 From: birendra176 at yahoo.com (Birendra Nath Prasad) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 08:44:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for a PDF copy of a paper on Gandhara References: <346996086.716700.1620290662847.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <346996086.716700.1620290662847@mail.yahoo.com> Respected Colleagues, I am looking for a PDF copy of the following paper: Verardi, Giovanni. 2012. 'The Brahmanisation of Gandh?ra'. In T. Lorenzetti and F. Scialpi (eds.), Glimpses of Indian History and Art. Reflections on the Past, Perspectives for the Future. Roma: Sapienza Universita Editrice. Kindly oblige by sending it as an email attachment. Thanking you in advance. With regards Yours truly Dr. Birendra Nath Prasad Assistant Professor Centre for Historical Studies Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi-110067 Email: bnprasad at mail.jnu.ac.in From tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it Thu May 6 12:37:39 2021 From: tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it (tiziana.lorenzetti) Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 14:37:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for a PDF copy of a paper on Gandhara In-Reply-To: <346996086.716700.1620290662847@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4e43472f6ebbfcb3ad60ffbd0d61071e@smtp-35.iol.local> Dear Dr. Birendra Nath Prasad,as for Prof. Verardi 's article, please contact me at my private e-mailtiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it?Best regardsTiziana Lorenzetti?Inviato dal mio Galaxy -------- Messaggio originale --------Da: Birendra Nath Prasad via INDOLOGY Data: 06/05/21 10:44 (GMT+01:00) A: indology at list.indology.info Oggetto: [INDOLOGY] Request for a PDF copy of a paper on Gandhara Respected Colleagues,I am looking for a PDF copy of the following paper:Verardi, Giovanni. 2012.? 'The Brahmanisation of Gandh?ra'.? In T. Lorenzetti and F. Scialpi (eds.),? Glimpses of Indian History and Art. Reflections on the Past, Perspectives for the Future. Roma: Sapienza Universita Editrice.? Kindly oblige by sending it as an email attachment.Thanking you in advance. With regardsYours trulyDr. Birendra Nath PrasadAssistant ProfessorCentre for Historical StudiesJawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi-110067Email: bnprasad at mail.jnu.ac.in _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rah2k at virginia.edu Thu May 6 14:15:52 2021 From: rah2k at virginia.edu (Hueckstedt, Robert A (rah2k)) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 14:15:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] email address request Message-ID: Does anyone have a current email address for Johannes Bronkhorst? Bob Hueckstedt University of Virginia USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Thu May 6 14:24:21 2021 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 16:24:21 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] OM, Brahmans and early yoga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Finnian, Dear Mark, I would be very grateful, if you could send me the pdf of your papers. My thoughts go in the same direction and on Sunday I will talk a bit about it. With best wishes, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz wt., 4 maj 2021 o 16:52 Mark McLaughlin via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear Finnian, > > I am very excited to read your article. I cover some of the same territory > (though likely much more broadly) in an article on *sam?dhi *burial > practice coming out this month in *Journal of Hindu Studies*. I'm certain > your work in this article will be very helpful as I push forward on the > book project. > > All best to you and congrats on the article. > > Mark > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:07 AM Finnian Moore-Gerety via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear colleagues? >> I?d like to draw your attention to the new issue of *History of >> Religions *(vol. 60, no. 3 February 2021), which features my article ?Between >> Sound and Silence in Early Yoga: Meditation on ?Om? at Death.? >> Pushing back >> against Johannes Bronkhorst?s contention that Brahmans played no role in >> the formation of early yoga, this article examines a mantra-based >> contemplative praxis that was central to Brahmanical constructions of yoga >> from the late Veda up through Pata?jali and beyond. I hope my contribution >> will be of interest to list-members?especially in light of the upcoming >> online symposium at the University of Alberta on Bronkhorst?s Greater >> Magadha hypothesis. >> >> Yours, >> Finnian >> >> *Abstract* >> This article examines the history of yoga with attention to mantras and >> sacred sound. It argues that meditation on the syllable ?*om*? at the >> moment of death, which is central to the construction of early yoga, has >> roots in a much older technique from Vedic sacrifice called the ?yoking? ( >> *yukti*). In this rite, the practitioner employs a contemplative praxis >> with *om* in order to ascend to the sun and attain immortality. >> Sacrifice thus furnishes an ancient link in the chain of Indian >> soteriologies associated with *om*, death, and solar ascent?a genealogy >> that extends from the Vedas up through foundational yogic discourses. By >> examining the interplay between sound and silence in contemplative >> practices around the sacred syllable, this article aims to explain how >> *om* first became integral to early yoga, to emphasize the importance of >> mantra meditation in the formation of yogic traditions, and to invite a >> reappraisal of the role of Brahmans in the formation of early yoga. >> >> Finnian M.M. Gerety >> Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies >> [Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for >> Contemporary South Asia >> Brown University >> www.finniangerety.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > Mark McLaughlin, PhD > *Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions* > > > *Department of Religious StudiesWilliam & MaryWilliamsburg, VA* > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francois.voegeli at gmail.com Thu May 6 14:28:16 2021 From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Fran=c3=a7ois_Voegeli?=) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 16:28:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] OM, Brahmans and early yoga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e25d76c-210b-aaa4-a193-492dc62d32e5@gmail.com> Dear Finnian, I would very much like to read your paper too. Could you send it to me also. Thanks in advance. Yours sincerely, F. Voegeli On 06.05.21 16:24, Joanna Jurewicz wrote: > Dear Finnian, Dear Mark, > > I would be very grateful, if you could send me the pdf of your papers. > My thoughts go in the same direction and on Sunday I will talk a bit > about it. > > With best wishes, > > Joanna > > --- > > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies > > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > > 00-927 Warszawa, Poland > > Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages > > College of Human Sciences > > UNISA > > Pretoria, RSA > > Member of Academia Europaea > > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > > > wt., 4 maj 2021 o 16:52?Mark McLaughlin via INDOLOGY > > > napisa?(a): > > Dear Finnian, > > I am very excited to read your article. I cover some of the same > territory (though likely much more broadly) in an article on > /sam?dhi /burial practice coming out this month in /Journal of > Hindu Studies/. I'm certain your work in this article will be very > helpful as I push forward on the book project. > > All best to you and congrats on the article. > > Mark > > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 10:07 AM Finnian Moore-Gerety via INDOLOGY > > > wrote: > > Dear colleagues? > I?d like to draw your attention to the new issue of /History > of Religions /(vol. 60, no. 3 February 2021), which features > my article ?Between Sound and Silence in Early Yoga: > Meditation on ?Om? at Death.? > ?Pushing > back against Johannes Bronkhorst?s contention that Brahmans > played no role in the formation of early yoga, this article > examines a mantra-based contemplative praxis that was central > to Brahmanical constructions of yoga from the late Veda up > through Pata?jali and beyond. I hope my contribution will be > of interest to list-members?especially in light of the > upcoming online symposium at the University of Alberta on > Bronkhorst?s Greater Magadha hypothesis. > > Yours, > Finnian > > *Abstract* > This article examines the history of yoga with attention to > mantras and sacred sound. It argues that meditation on the > syllable ?/om/? at the moment of death, which is central to > the construction of early yoga, has roots in a much older > technique from Vedic sacrifice called the ?yoking? (/yukti/). > In this rite, the practitioner employs a contemplative praxis > with /om/?in order to ascend to the sun and attain > immortality. Sacrifice thus furnishes an ancient link in the > chain of Indian soteriologies associated with /om/, death, and > solar ascent?a genealogy that extends from the Vedas up > through foundational yogic discourses. By examining the > interplay between sound and silence in contemplative practices > around the sacred syllable, this article aims to explain how > /om/?first became integral to early yoga, to emphasize the > importance of mantra meditation in the formation of yogic > traditions, and to invite a reappraisal of the role of > Brahmans in the formation of early yoga. > > Finnian M.M. Gerety > Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies > [Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative?Studies and Center for > Contemporary?South Asia > Brown University > www.finniangerety.com > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > > -- > Mark McLaughlin, PhD > /Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions/ > /Department of Religious Studies > William & Mary > Williamsburg, VA/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gasyoun at ya.ru Thu May 6 16:52:11 2021 From: gasyoun at ya.ru (=?utf-8?B?TcSBcmNpcyBHYXPFq25z?=) Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 19:52:11 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) Message-ID: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 6 18:07:13 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 11:07:13 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] YouTube link to my Sanskrit talk Message-ID: Here is the YouTube link to my Sanskrit talk on ??????????????? ??????????????????? delivered for the Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapeeth, Pune. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxxVIYD1MzA Best regards, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danbalogh at gmail.com Thu May 6 18:36:18 2021 From: danbalogh at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?D=C3=A1niel_Balogh?=) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 20:36:18 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Hello, as far as flora is concerned, the Pandanus database http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/ is still around. For finding the current standard taxonomic names corresponding to the often dated ones in Sanskrit dictionaries, The Plant List http://www.theplantlist.org/ is a useful resource. I hope others will add more. Best wishes, Daniel On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 18:52, M?rcis Gas?ns via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Greetings, > > There is an excellent book in English on Ornitology and an impressive, > but not so huge list of Flora in India in German. About Fauna in India > there is only a book I'm aware about dogs. Advice wanted. > You better do not trust most of the dictionaries, because they say, that > ?????? ?blue lotus?, ??????? ?the curlew or snipe? ? ??? ?female antelope? > - and that is not really so. For that reason I would love to hear some > stories around some mistakes in the dictionaries regarding the taxonomy and > some stories how to get around them with trustable sources: > > 1) Flora > Renate Syed: Die Flora Altindiens in Literatur und Kunst, Dissertation, > Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen 1990 > https://yadi.sk/i/I1VrWAOO2vPXdg > > 2.1) Ornitology > Birds-in-Sanskrit-Literature.pdf > https://yadi.sk/i/n0_UxdyO3PDTKk > > 2.2) Fauna > Boll?e_Gone to the dogs > https://yadi.sk/i/rSWR_NnclCTXFQ > > I've have found https://www.biodiversityofindia.org/, but it does not > contain far too many of the 1750 Latin plant names I was able to extract > from Monier-Williams (https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/simple/). > What other good reference works online or scanned books would you > recommend, please. Some major (not only Indian related DB would be of > interest as well). > > Regards, > Dr. M?rcis Gas?ns > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jan.kucera at matfyz.cz Thu May 6 18:46:03 2021 From: jan.kucera at matfyz.cz (jan.kucera at matfyz.cz) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 19:46:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Thanks Daniel, ? I was going to mention Pandanus as well - if anyone has feedback or requests for that database, feel free to reach out to me offline! ? Best regards, Jan Ku?era Charles University ? From: INDOLOGY On Behalf Of D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY Sent: Thursday, May 6, 2021 7:36 PM To: M?rcis Gas?ns Cc: indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) ? Hello, as far as flora is concerned, the Pandanus database http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/ is still around. For finding the current standard taxonomic names corresponding to the often dated ones in Sanskrit dictionaries, The Plant List http://www.theplantlist.org/ is a useful resource. I hope others will add more. Best wishes, Daniel ? On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 18:52, M?rcis Gas?ns via INDOLOGY > wrote: Greetings, ? ?There is an excellent book in English on Ornitology and an impressive, but not so huge list of Flora in India in German. About Fauna in India there is only a book I'm aware about dogs. Advice wanted. ? You better do not trust most of the dictionaries, because they say, that ?????? ?blue lotus?, ??????? ?the curlew or snipe? ? ??? ?female antelope? - and that is not really so. For that reason I would love to hear some stories around some mistakes in the dictionaries regarding the taxonomy and some stories how to get around them with trustable sources: ? 1) Flora Renate Syed: Die Flora Altindiens in Literatur und Kunst, Dissertation, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen 1990 https://yadi.sk/i/I1VrWAOO2vPXdg ? 2.1) Ornitology Birds-in-Sanskrit-Literature.pdf https://yadi.sk/i/n0_UxdyO3PDTKk ? 2.2) Fauna Boll?e_Gone to the dogs https://yadi.sk/i/rSWR_NnclCTXFQ ? I've have found https://www.biodiversityofindia.org/, but it does not contain far too many of the 1750 Latin plant names I was able to extract from Monier-Williams (https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/simple/). What other good reference works online or scanned books would you recommend, please. Some major (not only Indian related DB would be of interest as well). ? Regards, Dr. M?rcis Gas?ns _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de Thu May 6 18:53:06 2021 From: anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de (Anna Aurelia Esposito) Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 20:53:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <20210506205306.Horde.TKJ0RoHBUFtgs2iPru4vLt2@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> Dear M?rcis, there is also Meulenbeld's "Sanskrit Names of Plants and their Botanical Equivalents": https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/SNPScan/2020/web/index.php Best wishes, Anna Zitat von D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY : > Hello, > as far as flora is concerned, the Pandanus database > http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/ is still around. For finding the > current standard taxonomic names corresponding to the often dated ones in > Sanskrit dictionaries, The Plant List http://www.theplantlist.org/ is a > useful resource. I hope others will add more. > Best wishes, > Daniel > > On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 18:52, M?rcis Gas?ns via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Greetings, >> >> There is an excellent book in English on Ornitology and an impressive, >> but not so huge list of Flora in India in German. About Fauna in India >> there is only a book I'm aware about dogs. Advice wanted. >> You better do not trust most of the dictionaries, because they say, that >> ?????? ?blue lotus?, ??????? ?the curlew or snipe? ? ??? ?female antelope? >> - and that is not really so. For that reason I would love to hear some >> stories around some mistakes in the dictionaries regarding the taxonomy and >> some stories how to get around them with trustable sources: >> >> 1) Flora >> Renate Syed: Die Flora Altindiens in Literatur und Kunst, Dissertation, >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen 1990 >> https://yadi.sk/i/I1VrWAOO2vPXdg >> >> 2.1) Ornitology >> Birds-in-Sanskrit-Literature.pdf >> https://yadi.sk/i/n0_UxdyO3PDTKk >> >> 2.2) Fauna >> Boll?e_Gone to the dogs >> https://yadi.sk/i/rSWR_NnclCTXFQ >> >> I've have found https://www.biodiversityofindia.org/, but it does not >> contain far too many of the 1750 Latin plant names I was able to extract >> from Monier-Williams (https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/simple/). >> What other good reference works online or scanned books would you >> recommend, please. Some major (not only Indian related DB would be of >> interest as well). >> >> Regards, >> Dr. M?rcis Gas?ns >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> ********** PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito ********** Universit?t W?rzburg Lehrstuhl f?r Indologie Philosophiegeb?ude, Zi. 8U6 Am Hubland 97074 W?rzburg Germany Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512 ********** http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito ********** From ericmgurevitch at gmail.com Thu May 6 19:13:08 2021 From: ericmgurevitch at gmail.com (Eric Gurevitch) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 14:13:08 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: <20210506205306.Horde.TKJ0RoHBUFtgs2iPru4vLt2@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> <20210506205306.Horde.TKJ0RoHBUFtgs2iPru4vLt2@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> Message-ID: Dear M?rcis, It is hard to know where to begin, since - as the opening of the Dhanvantarinigha??u puts it, "there is no limit to the names of medical substances" and there is much scholarship from different traditions on this topic. But in addition to the sources already mentioned, quite useful reference works (especially when used in conjunction with each other) are: Chatterjee & Pakrashi, *Treatise on Indian Medicinal Plants*; *Chopra's* *Indigenous Drugs of India*; Kirtikar & Basu, *Indian Medical Plants*; Nadkarni, *Indian Materia Medica*; Sharma, *Fruits and Vegetables in Ancient India*. (PV Sharma has a number of other books that might interest you.) There are also excellent English translations of al-B?r?n?'s pharmacological text as well as Book 2 of Ibn S?n?'s *Canon* that might enjoy looking through. I am happy to share PDFs off list. In addition to the excellent Pandanus Database of Indian Plants already mentioned, the following databases might also be useful for your project: e-Nighantu, developed by the National Institute of Indian Medical Heritage: https://niimh.nic.in/ebooks/e-Nighantu/ and IMPPAT: Indian Medicinal Plants, Phytochemistry And Therapeutics database, hosted by the Institute of Mathematical Sciences (IMSc), Chennai: https://cb.imsc.res.in/imppat/ Take care, Eric On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 1:54 PM Anna Aurelia Esposito < anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de> wrote: > Dear M?rcis, > there is also Meulenbeld's "Sanskrit Names of Plants and their > Botanical Equivalents": > > https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/SNPScan/2020/web/index.php > > Best wishes, > Anna > > > Zitat von D?niel Balogh via INDOLOGY : > > > Hello, > > as far as flora is concerned, the Pandanus database > > http://iu.ff.cuni.cz/pandanus/database/ is still around. For finding the > > current standard taxonomic names corresponding to the often dated ones in > > Sanskrit dictionaries, The Plant List http://www.theplantlist.org/ is a > > useful resource. I hope others will add more. > > Best wishes, > > Daniel > > > > On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 18:52, M?rcis Gas?ns via INDOLOGY < > > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > > >> Greetings, > >> > >> There is an excellent book in English on Ornitology and an impressive, > >> but not so huge list of Flora in India in German. About Fauna in India > >> there is only a book I'm aware about dogs. Advice wanted. > >> You better do not trust most of the dictionaries, because they say, > that > >> ?????? ?blue lotus?, ??????? ?the curlew or snipe? ? ??? ?female > antelope? > >> - and that is not really so. For that reason I would love to hear some > >> stories around some mistakes in the dictionaries regarding the taxonomy > and > >> some stories how to get around them with trustable sources: > >> > >> 1) Flora > >> Renate Syed: Die Flora Altindiens in Literatur und Kunst, Dissertation, > >> Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen 1990 > >> https://yadi.sk/i/I1VrWAOO2vPXdg > >> > >> 2.1) Ornitology > >> Birds-in-Sanskrit-Literature.pdf > >> https://yadi.sk/i/n0_UxdyO3PDTKk > >> > >> 2.2) Fauna > >> Boll?e_Gone to the dogs > >> https://yadi.sk/i/rSWR_NnclCTXFQ > >> > >> I've have found https://www.biodiversityofindia.org/, but it does not > >> contain far too many of the 1750 Latin plant names I was able to extract > >> from Monier-Williams (https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/simple/ > ). > >> What other good reference works online or scanned books would you > >> recommend, please. Some major (not only Indian related DB would be of > >> interest as well). > >> > >> Regards, > >> Dr. M?rcis Gas?ns > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > >> > > > > ********** > PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito > ********** > Universit?t W?rzburg > Lehrstuhl f?r Indologie > Philosophiegeb?ude, Zi. 8U6 > Am Hubland > 97074 W?rzburg > Germany > Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512 > ********** > http://www.indologie.uni-wuerzburg.de/mitarbeiter/esposito > ********** > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Eric Gurevitch PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science University of Chicago gurevitch at uchicago.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu May 6 21:06:56 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 15:06:56 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] new article in the electronic Journal of Indian Medicine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See also this announcement: - https://sushrutaproject.org/2021/03/08/published/ On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 13:00, Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear All, > Recently the following article has become available in the electronic > Journal of Indian Medicine: > > "On the Textual History of the Su?rutasa?hit? (1): A Study of Three > Nepalese Manuscripts" > by > Andrey Klebanov > > DOI: > https://doi.org/10.21827/ejim.12.1.37385 > > *** *** *** > N.B. > From "About the Journal": > > eJIM, the eJournal of Indian medicine, is a multidisciplinary periodical > founded in 2007 by Jan Meulenbeld (1928 - 2016) and Roelf Barkhuis that > publishes studies on traditional South Asian medical traditions by > qualified scholars in philology, medicine, pharmacology, botany, > anthropology and sociology. Authors from India, Sri Lanka and adjoining > countries are cordially invited to contribute. > > eJIM specifically encourages original approaches with fresh perspectives > and daring methodologies to discussions in the abovementioned fields. > > eJIM is an Open Access publication and makes no charge either to authors > or to readers. All articles and the Archives can be accessed without > registration. Registered users, however, will be notified by email on > publication of an issue of the journal, new books, or news items. > *** *** *** > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu May 6 21:22:52 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 15:22:52 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: <20210506205306.Horde.TKJ0RoHBUFtgs2iPru4vLt2@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> <20210506205306.Horde.TKJ0RoHBUFtgs2iPru4vLt2@webmail.uni-wuerzburg.de> Message-ID: My book *Roots of Ayurveda* (Penguin, 2013) discusses plant names in the Introduction, pp. xxxv-xxxviii, and gives a bibliography of important reference sources on the last of those pages. Best, Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stella.sandahl at gmail.com Fri May 7 01:25:13 2021 From: stella.sandahl at gmail.com (Stella Sandahl) Date: Thu, 6 May 2021 21:25:13 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_India_is_hiding_its_Covid_crisis_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=93_and_the_whole_world_will_suffer_for_it?= References: Message-ID: <8E69341C-8C30-4F97-9BD9-C7BB485F5741@gmail.com> Worth reading! > > Subject: India is hiding its Covid crisis ? and the whole world will suffer for it > Date: May 6, 2021 at 4:31:05 PM EDT > To: Stella Sandahl > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/06/india-covid-crisis-narenda-modi-government-hiding?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vitus.angermeier at univie.ac.at Fri May 7 07:18:56 2021 From: vitus.angermeier at univie.ac.at (Vitus Angermeier) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 09:18:56 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium | Programme Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I'm pleased to announce the programme of the *12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium* Vienna/online, July 22nd to 24th, 2021 (UTC+2)* * We are planning the symposium as a hybrid event, but expect that most people will only be able to participate online. Information on registration will follow at the end of June. *Day 1: Thursday, July 22^nd * 9:00-9:30 Welcoming Session *Section 1: Myths, Rituals, and Religious Ideologies. Chair: Marion Rastelli* 9:30-10:00 Amandine Wattelier-Bricout: /Which Soteriological Path Do the Myths Told in the Skandapur??a Suggest? A Case Study: Suke?a and His Ancestors (SP35-SP51)/ 10:00-10:30 Dominique Marcel Baur: /Of Toothsticks, Dreams and Lizards: Omens in Jyoti???stra, P??car?tra-Sa?hit?s and Pur??as/ ? Break ? 11:00-11:30 Barbora Sojkova: /When Cows Sacrifice/ 11:30-12:00 Anna Scarabel: /Sv?m? Karap?tr? and Day?nanda Sarasvat?: Two Competing Discourses on Icon Worship/ 12:00-12:30 Chiara Policardi: /The Elephant-Faced Goddess in Mediaeval ?aiva Tantric Traditions: Female //Ga?e?a//or Independent Deity?/ ? Lunch Break ? *Section 2: Tantrism and Yoga: A Textual Perspective. **Chair: Georgi Krastev * 14:00-14:30 Marine Schoettel: /?Thus Are the Words of Sa? Hya? Mata?ga?: Quotations of the Mata?ga-P?rame?vara in an Old Javanese Treatise/ 14:30-15:00 Nicholas Lua: /Dr. Tumburu, I Presume? Tantric Tumburu?s ?yurvedic Precursor/ 15:00-15:30 Hagar Shalev: /The Notion of Health in Pre-Modern Hindu Yoga Systems/ ? Break ? 16:00-17:00 J?rgen Hanneder: /Keynote Lecture: ?Akademischer Nachwuchs? ? Reflections of a Veteran on a Strange Concept / *Day 2: Friday, July 23^rd * *Section 3: Jain Studies: Ethics and Narrative Perspectives. Chair: Himal Trikha* 9:00-9:30 Jinesh R. Sheth: /On the Importance of Anek?ntav?da and Ubiquity of Ahi?s? in Jaina Ethics: Reflections on Am?tacandras?ri?s Puru??rthasiddhyup?ya/ 9:30-10:00 Seema K. Chauhan: /How to Read a ?Jaina Retelling? of a Hindu Tale: The Tale of K???a?s Sister in Jinasena?s Hariva??apur??a/ ? Break ? *Section 4: Buddhist Studies: Philosophy, Literature and Art History. Chair: Markus Viehbeck* 10:30-11:00 Seongho Choi: /Yog?c?ra and Madhyamaka in Pa?caskandha Texts/ 11:00-11:30 Xiaoqiang Meng: /Multifaced N?gakum?ra: Further Notes on K?emendra?s Sources of Bodhisattv?vad?nakalpalat?/ 11:30-12:00 Charlotte Gorant: /N?gas in Early Buddhism: A Heavenly Abode and an Unfortunate Birth in Art/ ? Lunch Break ? *Section 5: Literature, Manuscript and Arts. Chair: Daisy Sze Yui Cheung * 13:30-14:00 Shihong Zhao: /Notes on the Manuscripts of the Ala?k?raratn?kara/ 14:00-14:30 Devdutta Kakati: /The Har?acarita and Two Contemporary Eulogies in Epigraphic Texts: Reflections on the Polity of K?mar?pa during Bh?skaravarman (c. 7/^th /century CE)/ ? Break ? 15:00-15:30 Mercy Dutta: /In Pursuit of Love: Understanding the Dynamics of ?Loving? Relationships in B??abha??a?s K?dambar?/ 15:30-16:00 Hermina Cielas: /One Hundred Steps to the Court: ?atalekhin??s and the Art of avadh?na in the N?yakas? and Mar??h?s? Ta?j?vur/ *Day 3: Saturday, July 24^th * *Section 6: Grammar Studies. Chair: Marco Ferrante* 9:00-9:30 Rishi Rajpopat: /The Evolution of Rule-Conflict Resolution Tools in the P??inian Grammatical Tradition/ 9:30-10:00 Sibylle Koch: /The Philosophical Problem Around the Grammatical Gender of Terms such as puru?a?, citi? and caitanyam, as well as the Gender of Terms Denoting Non-Existent Things/ *Section 7: Probing the universe of Indian Philosophy. Chair: Michael Williams* 10:00-10:30 Ge Ge: /ma?gala in the Eyes of ?a?kara Mi?ra Based on the Opening of the Upask?ra/ ? Break ? 11:00-11:30 Rafa? K?eczek: /Ny?yabh??a?a on Distinctiveness of Its Own Tradition/ 11:30-12:00 Aditya Chaturvedi: /Kr?s?n?a as the Purport of the pra//ma?n?acatus?t?aya: Vallabha?ca?rya on //e//kava?kyata? and the Order of Authoritative Texts/ 12:00-12:30 Rosina Pastore: /Discussing Ny?ya in Brajbh???? On Six Categories of Reasoning in Brajv?s?d?s?s Prabodhacandrodaya N??aka/ ? Lunch Break ? *Afternoon Section* 14:00 Concluding Session Kind regards, Vitus Angermeier on behalf of the IIGRS12 Team ??????????????????????? Dr. Vitus Angermeier Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies University of Vienna Spitalgasse 2, Courtyard 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria ORC?D: 0000-0002-8505-6112 ? on Academia.edu ? Personal Website < https://homepage.univie.ac.at/vitus.angermeier/> The Initiative for Fair Open Access Publishing in South Asian Studies , contact at foasas.org ??????????????????????? 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 12) July 22?24, 2021, Vienna, Austria iigrs.wordpress.com iigrsuk at googlemail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ibhmmioopaelojal.png Type: image/png Size: 57488 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: programme-iigrs-12-vienna.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1225481 bytes Desc: not available URL: From christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at Fri May 7 15:35:28 2021 From: christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at (Christian Ferstl) Date: Fri, 07 May 2021 17:35:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, let me add the following books edited by the Bombay Natural History Society: - K.C. Sahni, The Book of Indian Trees, Oxford etc. 1998, and - S.H. Prater, The Book of Indian Animals, Oxford etc. 1948, corr. ed. 1980, 12th repr. 2005 Christian Ferstl University of Vienna Am 06.05.2021 18:52, schrieb M?rcis Gas?ns via INDOLOGY: > Greetings, > > There is an excellent book in English on Ornitology and an > impressive, but not so huge list of Flora in India in German. About > Fauna in India there is only a book I'm aware about dogs. Advice > wanted. > You better do not trust most of the dictionaries, because they say, > that ?????? ?blue lotus?, ??????? ?the > curlew or snipe? ? ??? ?female antelope? - and that is not > really so. For that reason I would love to hear some stories around > some mistakes in the dictionaries regarding the taxonomy and some > stories how to get around them with trustable sources: > > 1) Flora > Renate Syed: Die Flora Altindiens in Literatur und Kunst, > Dissertation, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen 1990 > https://yadi.sk/i/I1VrWAOO2vPXdg > > 2.1) Ornitology > Birds-in-Sanskrit-Literature.pdf > https://yadi.sk/i/n0_UxdyO3PDTKk > > 2.2) Fauna > Boll?e_Gone to the dogs > https://yadi.sk/i/rSWR_NnclCTXFQ > > I've have found https://www.biodiversityofindia.org/, but it does not > contain far too many of the 1750 Latin plant names I was able to > extract from Monier-Williams > (https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/simple/). What other good > reference works online or scanned books would you recommend, please. > Some major (not only Indian related DB would be of interest as well). > > Regards, > Dr. M?rcis Gas?ns > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri May 7 15:55:32 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:55:32 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Flora and Fauna of India (Biodiversity of India) In-Reply-To: References: <1280841620319878@mail.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Especially on the Indian perception and *representation* of Indian animals (mammals): Alexandra van der Geer, *Animals in Stone: Indian Mammals Sculptured Through Time*, (HdO, Section II: India, edited by J. Bronkhorst, vol. 21), Leiden: E.J. Brill, 2008. Jan Houben On Fri, 7 May 2021 at 17:36, Christian Ferstl via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > let me add the following books edited by the Bombay Natural History > Society: > > - K.C. Sahni, The Book of Indian Trees, Oxford etc. 1998, and > - S.H. Prater, The Book of Indian Animals, Oxford etc. 1948, corr. ed. > 1980, 12th repr. 2005 > > Christian Ferstl > University of Vienna > > Am 06.05.2021 18:52, schrieb M?rcis Gas?ns via INDOLOGY: > > Greetings, > > > > There is an excellent book in English on Ornitology and an > > impressive, but not so huge list of Flora in India in German. About > > Fauna in India there is only a book I'm aware about dogs. Advice > > wanted. > > You better do not trust most of the dictionaries, because they say, > > that ?????? ?blue lotus?, ??????? ?the > > curlew or snipe? ? ??? ?female antelope? - and that is not > > really so. For that reason I would love to hear some stories around > > some mistakes in the dictionaries regarding the taxonomy and some > > stories how to get around them with trustable sources: > > > > 1) Flora > > Renate Syed: Die Flora Altindiens in Literatur und Kunst, > > Dissertation, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen 1990 > > https://yadi.sk/i/I1VrWAOO2vPXdg > > > > 2.1) Ornitology > > Birds-in-Sanskrit-Literature.pdf > > https://yadi.sk/i/n0_UxdyO3PDTKk > > > > 2.2) Fauna > > Boll?e_Gone to the dogs > > https://yadi.sk/i/rSWR_NnclCTXFQ > > > > I've have found https://www.biodiversityofindia.org/, but it does not > > contain far too many of the 1750 Latin plant names I was able to > > extract from Monier-Williams > > (https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/simple/). What other good > > reference works online or scanned books would you recommend, please. > > Some major (not only Indian related DB would be of interest as well). > > > > Regards, > > Dr. M?rcis Gas?ns > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list > > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rembert at ochs.org.uk Fri May 7 16:23:08 2021 From: rembert at ochs.org.uk (Rembert Lutjeharms) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 17:23:08 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World (Friday 28 May 2021) Message-ID: *37th Annual Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World Symposium* Friday 28 May 2021 We warmly invite you to the 37th Sanskrit Tradition in the Modern World symposium, which will be held online, hosted by the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies. Sanskrit Traditions in the Modern World (STIMW) is a forum for the discussion of the Sanskrit traditions of South Asia, and the texts and cultures that have risen out of them. It brings together established and rising academics for the focused examination of research pertaining to various aspects of South Asia?s rich Sanskrit religious and intellectual culture. It thereby seeks to sustain and build upon the long history of scholarship in this important area of study. This year's symposium will feature the following papers: Ruth Westoby, SOAS University of London *?Uncoiling a concept: Kun?d?alin? in the early Hat?hacorpus? * (Discussant: Jason Birch) C. T. Fleming, University of Oxford *?Dharma??stra in the Ayodhya Verdict (2019)?* (Discussant: Jacqueline Hirst) Rebecca Manring, Indiana University *?Hanum?n's Leaps of Faith: Intertextuality in the Dharma-ma?gala? *(Discussant: Ishan Chakrabarty) Elena Mucciarelli, University of Groningen & Adheesh Sathaye, University of British Columbia *?Transcreating Sanskrit Humour through Kutiyattam Performance? *(Discussant: Mandakranta Bose) There is no registration fee. But if you would like to attend, please register here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/153330845687 Papers will be circulated in advance to those who registered. -- Dr. Rembert Lutjeharms Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies 13-15 Magdalen Street Oxford OX1 3AE United Kingdom Tel.: +44 (0)1865 304300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 37th Annual STIMW Symposium.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 290889 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: STIMW 2021 Abstracts.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 81304 bytes Desc: not available URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Fri May 7 18:44:33 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 18:44:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol Message-ID: <1ebbd395e5c04c838db455ff98da7886@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear List Members, I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. Kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sat May 8 01:45:40 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 18:45:40 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: <1ebbd395e5c04c838db455ff98da7886@hum.leidenuniv.nl> References: <1ebbd395e5c04c838db455ff98da7886@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <2A78E634-80EE-4A8B-B3A8-BF9958B74CBD@earthlink.net> Dear Professor Tieken, Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????. ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????????. ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? - ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? ?????? ???????. ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ????????????????????. sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the above reference-passage for a general audience. Regards, rajam > On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear List Members, > I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? > In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. > Kind regards, Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sat May 8 12:49:13 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 08:49:13 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?anun=C4=81sika_in_Weber=27s_edition_of_?= =?utf-8?b?xZphdGFwYXRoYS1icmFobWHhuYdh?= Message-ID: Dear list members, The anun?sika as printed in Weber's edition of ?atapatha-brahma?a in Madhyandina-?akha is similar but slightly different from the versions of anun?sika/anusvara in the Unicode Vedic Extensions block. Can someone identify which character in the Unicode Vedic Extensions block the anun?sika in Weber's ?atapatha-brahma?a corresponds to. See attached pdf. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: UNICODE-VAJASANEYI.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 50299 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anuj.misra at gmail.com Sat May 8 14:12:13 2021 From: anuj.misra at gmail.com (AJ Misra) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 16:12:13 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] On the use of rhetorical questions in Sanskrit Message-ID: Dear colleagues: I wanted to ask if there have been any studies on the use of rhetorical questions in Sanskrit texts, particularly, in passages that critique different positions. My question stems from an observation in astronomical texts (*siddh?nta*s) where author often criticise each other (or *pur??ic* views) using rhetorical questions. Any resource (articles, books, citations, etc.) on this topic would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks. With kind regards, AJ -- Anuj Misra, PhD Marie Sk?odowska-Curie Fellow Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Karen Blixens Plads 8, Building 10 2300 Copenhagen S DENMARK +45 (0) 93 51 60 58 anuj.misra at hum.ku.dk https://ccrs.ku.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sat May 8 19:05:00 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 19:05:00 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: <2A78E634-80EE-4A8B-B3A8-BF9958B74CBD@earthlink.net> References: <1ebbd395e5c04c838db455ff98da7886@hum.leidenuniv.nl>, <2A78E634-80EE-4A8B-B3A8-BF9958B74CBD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7d242dcac6ad4aeaaba64f84aff14dc3@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear Dr. Rajam, Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, o?i ?lai is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: rajam Verzonden: zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. CC: indology Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol Dear Professor Tieken, Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????. ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????????. ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? - ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? ?????? ???????. ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ????????????????????. sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the above reference-passage for a general audience. Regards, rajam On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear List Members, I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. Kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sat May 8 23:49:52 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 16:49:52 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: <7d242dcac6ad4aeaaba64f84aff14dc3@hum.leidenuniv.nl> References: <1ebbd395e5c04c838db455ff98da7886@hum.leidenuniv.nl> <2A78E634-80EE-4A8B-B3A8-BF9958B74CBD@earthlink.net> <7d242dcac6ad4aeaaba64f84aff14dc3@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> Dear Professor Tieken, I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?snapped palm leaf? ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of ? o?i* ? in TL. I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact measurement of ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? Regards, rajam > On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Dear Dr. Rajam, > Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, o?i ?lai is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. > With kind regards, Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > Van: rajam > > Verzonden: zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 > Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. > CC: indology > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol > > Dear Professor Tieken, > > Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. > > https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html > > ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????. ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????????. > ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? - ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. > ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? ?????? ???????. > ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ????????????????????. > > sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the above reference-passage for a general audience. > > Regards, > rajam > > > >> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> Dear List Members, >> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. >> Kind regards, Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website: hermantieken.com >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From s.raman at utoronto.ca Sun May 9 00:07:44 2021 From: s.raman at utoronto.ca (Srilata Raman) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 20:07:44 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> References: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, Exactly. The stick (????) is the length of one ????? which, as you and I know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. With regards, Srilata Raman Sent from my iPad > On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: > > ? > EXTERNAL EMAIL: > Dear Professor Tieken, > > I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?snapped palm leaf? > > ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of ? o?i* ? in TL. > > I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact measurement of ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." > > The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? > > Regards, > rajam > > >>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: >>> >>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>> Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, o?i ?lai is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. >>> With kind regards, Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website: hermantieken.com >>> Van: rajam >>> Verzonden: zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>> Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. >>> CC: indology >>> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>> >>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>> >>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. >>> >>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>> >>> ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????. ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????????. >>> ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? - ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. >>> ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? ?????? ???????. >>> ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ????????????????????. >>> >>> sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the above reference-passage for a general audience. >>> >>> Regards, >>> rajam >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> >>> Dear List Members, >>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. >>> Kind regards, Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website: hermantieken.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sun May 9 00:43:47 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 17:43:47 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: References: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8843606C-8CA6-47C7-96C0-892D24BB5599@earthlink.net> Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman. It?s interesting ? ????? (mozham or mo?am, however we transcribe it) is the length of measurement from one?s elbow up to the tip of the middle finger. So, the length of this ?????/????? would vary depending upon the person who?s doing the measurement. For example, my muzham/mozham/mo?am is about 16-inches. Others? may vary. So, I?m curious about the measurements used in ?ilpa ??stra texts. I?ll keep exploring. Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman. Regards, rajam > On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman wrote: > > Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, > Exactly. The stick (????) is the length of one ????? which, as you and I know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. > With regards, > Srilata Raman > > Sent from my iPad > >> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: >> >> ? >> EXTERNAL EMAIL: >> Dear Professor Tieken, >> >> I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?snapped palm leaf? >> >> ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of ? o?i* ? in TL. >> >> I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact measurement of ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." >> >> The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? >> >> Regards, >> rajam >> >> >>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>> Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, o?i ?lai is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. >>> With kind regards, Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website: hermantieken.com >>> Van: rajam > >>> Verzonden: zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>> Aan: Tieken, H.J.H. >>> CC: indology >>> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>> >>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>> >>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. >>> >>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>> >>> ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????. ???? ??? ???? ?????????? ????????? ????? ???? ????? ?????????. >>> ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? - ?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. >>> ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? ?????? ???????. >>> ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ????????????????????. >>> >>> sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the above reference-passage for a general audience. >>> >>> Regards, >>> rajam >>> >>> >>> >>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear List Members, >>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. >>>> Kind regards, Herman >>>> >>>> Herman Tieken >>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>> The Netherlands >>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>> website: hermantieken.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Sun May 9 06:43:38 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 08:43:38 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: <8843606C-8CA6-47C7-96C0-892D24BB5599@earthlink.net> References: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> <8843606C-8CA6-47C7-96C0-892D24BB5599@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear Herman, Dear VSR, dear Srilata, dear all, being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice. I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by seeing this picture and its caption (I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but it is reachable via the links) Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax model of a god This is from a document available on Research gate Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India January 2007 Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, A., Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr. Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India The Research gate link was provided in this thread https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ on the ????? ?????? mailing list by ?????? I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing? Herman, are you writing review of this 2007 book? Best wishes to all -- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen) https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: > Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman. > > It?s interesting ? ????? (mozham or mo?am, however we transcribe it) is > the length of measurement from one?s elbow up to the tip of the middle > finger. So, the length of this ?????/????? would vary depending upon the > person who?s doing the measurement. For example, my muzham/mozham/mo?am > is about 16-inches. Others? may vary. > > So, I?m curious about the measurements used in ?ilpa ??stra texts. I?ll > keep exploring. > > Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman. > > Regards, > rajam > > >> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman > > wrote: >> >> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, >> Exactly. The stick (????) is the length of one ????? which, as you and I >> know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to >> measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. >> With regards, >> Srilata Raman >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY >>> > wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:* >>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>> >>> I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? >>> vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?*snapped* palm leaf? >>> >>> ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of >>> ? o?i* ? in TL. >>> >>> I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* of >>> ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." >>> >>> The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to >>> spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? >>> >>> Regards, >>> rajam >>> >>> >>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>>> Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in >>>> the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule)?Unfortunately,?o?i ?lai >>>> is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know >>>> now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. >>>> With kind regards, Herman >>>> >>>> Herman Tieken >>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>> The Netherlands >>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Van:*rajam > >>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H. >>>> *CC:*indology >>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>> >>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first >>>> part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. >>>> >>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? >>>> ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????.*???? >>>> ??? ???? ?????????? ?????????**????? ????*????? ?????????. >>>> ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ??*???*???? -*?????? ??? >>>> ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????*???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? >>>> ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, >>>> ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. >>>> ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? >>>> ?????? ???????. >>>> ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? >>>> ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? >>>> ????????? ????????????????????. >>>> >>>> sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the >>>> above reference-passage for a general audience. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> rajam >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear List Members, >>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in >>>>> Tamilnadu. The author, apparently?unfamiliar with written Tamil, >>>>> mentions a flexible tape line?called odiolai. The second part is >>>>> ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part >>>>> of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is >>>>> the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make >>>>> of odi and molla. >>>>> Kind regards, Herman >>>>> >>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>> The Netherlands >>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Odi-olai.png Type: image/png Size: 795791 bytes Desc: not available URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sun May 9 07:57:05 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 07:57:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: References: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> <8843606C-8CA6-47C7-96C0-892D24BB5599@earthlink.net>, Message-ID: <57e12cc2251744669fd0bd7c23af02d6@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear Rajam, as to o?i, "snapped", I think you are right. In the picture supplied by Jean-Luc the leaf has been divided into sections. DED sub o?i mentions, for Malay?l?am, "division or range of ricefields". Jean-Luc, as to your question if I am reviewing the publication you mention, I am not. I stick to classical Tamil literature, With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: zondag 9 mei 2021 08:43:38 Aan: rajam; Srilata Raman; Tieken, H.J.H. CC: indology Onderwerp: is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol Dear Herman, Dear VSR, dear Srilata, dear all, being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice. I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by seeing this picture and its caption (I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but it is reachable via the links) Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax model of a god This is from a document available on Research gate Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India January 2007 Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, A., Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr. Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India The Research gate link was provided in this thread https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ on the ????? ?????? mailing list by ?????? I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing? Herman, are you writing review of this 2007 book? Best wishes to all -- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen) https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: > Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman. > > It?s interesting ? ????? (mozham or mo?am, however we transcribe it) is > the length of measurement from one?s elbow up to the tip of the middle > finger. So, the length of this ?????/????? would vary depending upon the > person who?s doing the measurement. For example, my muzham/mozham/mo?am > is about 16-inches. Others? may vary. > > So, I?m curious about the measurements used in ?ilpa ??stra texts. I?ll > keep exploring. > > Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman. > > Regards, > rajam > > >> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman > > wrote: >> >> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, >> Exactly. The stick (????) is the length of one ????? which, as you and I >> know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to >> measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. >> With regards, >> Srilata Raman >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY >>> > wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:* >>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>> >>> I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? >>> vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?*snapped* palm leaf? >>> >>> ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of >>> ? o?i* ? in TL. >>> >>> I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* of >>> ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." >>> >>> The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to >>> spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? >>> >>> Regards, >>> rajam >>> >>> >>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>>> Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in >>>> the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, o?i ?lai >>>> is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know >>>> now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. >>>> With kind regards, Herman >>>> >>>> Herman Tieken >>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>> The Netherlands >>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Van:*rajam > >>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H. >>>> *CC:*indology >>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>> >>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first >>>> part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. >>>> >>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? >>>> ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????.*???? >>>> ??? ???? ?????????? ?????????**????? ????*????? ?????????. >>>> ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ??*???*???? -*?????? ??? >>>> ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????*???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? >>>> ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, >>>> ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. >>>> ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? >>>> ?????? ???????. >>>> ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? >>>> ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? >>>> ????????? ????????????????????. >>>> >>>> sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the >>>> above reference-passage for a general audience. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> rajam >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear List Members, >>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in >>>>> Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, >>>>> mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is >>>>> ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part >>>>> of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is >>>>> the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make >>>>> of odi and molla. >>>>> Kind regards, Herman >>>>> >>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>> The Netherlands >>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadi.vivier at posteo.ch Sun May 9 08:51:05 2021 From: gadi.vivier at posteo.ch (Gadi Vivier) Date: Sun, 09 May 2021 08:51:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] List check. Please disregard Message-ID: Apologies for this test. Please disregard it. From jemhouben at gmail.com Sun May 9 13:57:45 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:57:45 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt Message-ID: Dear All, A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several lists. In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this Indology List. Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where we read: "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like them. ... It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third Reich. Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German Art in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban and industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible on my Academia.edu page. The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). N.B. Both Houben 2001: ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. and Houben 2019: ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. All best, Jan Houben -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Sun May 9 14:29:28 2021 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 16:29:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Jan, for introducing this point and for the references to your papers. Best wishes, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 15:59 Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear All, > A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place at > Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is > entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) > is accessible on several lists. > In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the > beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references > to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is > found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden > 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between > Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their > cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during > the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the > organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over > a separate service, sli.do." > Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass > the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who > wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" > -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this > Indology List. > Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book of > Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous > moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have > immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. > 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where we > read: > > "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like them. > ... > It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third Reich. > Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German Art > in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban and > industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." > > The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very > different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins > in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: > > ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the Catur-Veda: > Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, Present, > Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest* > 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, > Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. > > As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be > available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible > on my Academia.edu page. > > The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of the > community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural > selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of > transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, > inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present > the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an > *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: > Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, > 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). > N.B. Both Houben 2001: > ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the > history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en Asie > / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. > and Houben 2019: > ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual > Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian > ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and > Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s > Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 > (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. > 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books > are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. > > I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. > > All best, Jan Houben > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith.caley at gmail.com Sun May 9 14:50:10 2021 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 10:50:10 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jan, Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's always useful to have a digital one too. I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to conceive of their place in their domain. And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. Best, Caley On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear All, > A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place at > Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is > entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) > is accessible on several lists. > In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the > beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references > to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is > found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden > 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between > Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their > cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during > the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the > organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over > a separate service, sli.do." > Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass > the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who > wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" > -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this > Indology List. > Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book of > Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous > moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have > immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. > 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where we > read: > > "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like them. > ... > It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third Reich. > Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German Art > in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban and > industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." > > The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very > different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins > in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: > > ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the Catur-Veda: > Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, Present, > Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest* > 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, > Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. > > As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be > available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible > on my Academia.edu page. > > The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of the > community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural > selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of > transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, > inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present > the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an > *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: > Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, > 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). > N.B. Both Houben 2001: > ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the > history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en Asie > / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. > and Houben 2019: > ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual > Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian > ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and > Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s > Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 > (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. > 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books > are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. > > I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. > > All best, Jan Houben > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun May 9 15:46:01 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 17:46:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tak. A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist (Caley: ). If so - then when, where, in what forms? Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to them linguistically - and conceptually? Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in the Vedic tradition? Best, Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear Jan, > > Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's > always useful to have a digital one too. > > I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings are > completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of > anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, > the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know of > many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of > Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet > that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these > "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more > immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely > they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country > (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. > Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? > Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about > constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the > slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course > a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that > is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for > Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to > conceive of their place in their domain. > > And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically > different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives > directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which > pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis > of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the > Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and > the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban > centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more > immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, > post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am > not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that > point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are > talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and > newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic > commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than > that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. > > Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely > misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. > > Best, > Caley > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear All, >> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place >> at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is >> entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) >> is accessible on several lists. >> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the >> beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references >> to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is >> found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden >> 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between >> Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their >> cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during >> the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the >> organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over >> a separate service, sli.do." >> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass >> the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who >> wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" >> -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this >> Indology List. >> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book >> of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous >> moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where we >> read: >> >> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >> them. >> ... >> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third Reich. >> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German >> Art >> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban >> and >> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >> >> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very >> different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins >> in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: >> >> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, >> Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, >> Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. >> 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >> >> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >> on my Academia.edu page. >> >> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of >> the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en Asie >> / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >> and Houben 2019: >> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual >> Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian >> ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and >> Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s >> Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 >> (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. >> 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >> >> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. >> >> All best, Jan Houben >> >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >> >> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> >> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >> >> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >> transmission >> >> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith.caley at gmail.com Sun May 9 16:12:12 2021 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 12:12:12 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Artur, I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political organizations that employed them. On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and would love to know more. Best, Caley On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: > Tak. > > A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. > > Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist (Caley: am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that > point.>). > > If so - then when, where, in what forms? > > Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? > > Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to > them linguistically - and conceptually? > > Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal > formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of > refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? > > I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these kinds > of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in the > Vedic tradition? > > Best, > > Artur > > > Wolny > od wirus?w. www.avast.com > > <#m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Dear Jan, >> >> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >> always useful to have a digital one too. >> >> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings are >> completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know >> of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >> conceive of their place in their domain. >> >> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >> >> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place >>> at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is >>> entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) >>> is accessible on several lists. >>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the >>> beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references >>> to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is >>> found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden >>> 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between >>> Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their >>> cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during >>> the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the >>> organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over >>> a separate service, sli.do." >>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass >>> the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who >>> wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" >>> -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this >>> Indology List. >>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book >>> of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous >>> moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where we >>> read: >>> >>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>> them. >>> ... >>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third Reich. >>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German >>> Art >>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban >>> and >>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>> >>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very >>> different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins >>> in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: >>> >>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, >>> Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, >>> Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. >>> 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>> >>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>> on my Academia.edu page. >>> >>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of >>> the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>> and Houben 2019: >>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual >>> Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian >>> ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and >>> Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s >>> Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 >>> (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. >>> 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>> >>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. >>> >>> All best, Jan Houben >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>> >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>> >>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>> >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>> >>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>> >>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> * >>> >>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>> >>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>> transmission >>> >>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sun May 9 17:06:57 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: References: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> <8843606C-8CA6-47C7-96C0-892D24BB5599@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dear JLC, To your nice question ... /// I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing?/// ? My quick reply: My reading from https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html is that the leaves used for the measurement of making bronze idols are ????????????? ?????? (from coconut trees) which are different from ??? ?????? (from palmyra trees) that I suppose were/are used for writing. I?ll share more information if/when I get them. Best wishes, VSR > On May 8, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > > Dear Herman, > Dear VSR, > dear Srilata, > dear all, > > being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice. > > I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by seeing this picture and its caption > (I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but it is reachable via the links) > > Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax model of a god > > This is from a document available on Research gate > > Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India > January 2007 > Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, A., Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr. > Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India > > The Research gate link was provided in this thread > > https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ > > on the ????? ?????? mailing list by ?????? > > I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf > > I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing? > > Herman, are you writing review of this 2007 book? > > Best wishes to all > > -- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen) > > > https://twitter.com/JLC1956 > > > > On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: >> Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman. >> It?s interesting ? ????? (mozham or mo?am, however we transcribe it) is the length of measurement from one?s elbow up to the tip of the middle finger. So, the length of this ?????/????? would vary depending upon the person who?s doing the measurement. For example, my muzham/mozham/mo?am is about 16-inches. Others? may vary. >> So, I?m curious about the measurements used in ?ilpa ??stra texts. I?ll keep exploring. >> Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman. >> Regards, >> rajam >>> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman > wrote: >>> >>> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, >>> Exactly. The stick (????) is the length of one ????? which, as you and I know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. >>> With regards, >>> Srilata Raman >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>> >>>> ? >>>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:* >>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>> >>>> I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?*snapped* palm leaf? >>>> >>>> ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning of ? o?i* ? in TL. >>>> >>>> I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* of ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." >>>> >>>> The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> rajam >>>> >>>> >>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>>>> Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule) Unfortunately, o?i ?lai is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I know now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. >>>>> With kind regards, Herman >>>>> >>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>> The Netherlands >>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> *Van:*rajam > >>>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H. >>>>> *CC:*indology >>>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>>> >>>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>>>> >>>>> ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ??????????????????.*???? ??? ???? ?????????? ?????????**????? ????*????? ?????????. >>>>> ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ??*???*???? -*?????? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????*???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. >>>>> ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? ?????? ???????. >>>>> ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? ????????? ????????????????????. >>>>> >>>>> sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the above reference-passage for a general audience. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> rajam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear List Members, >>>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in Tamilnadu. The author, apparently unfamiliar with written Tamil, mentions a flexible tape line called odiolai. The second part is ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >>>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to make of odi and molla. >>>>>> Kind regards, Herman >>>>>> >>>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>>> The Netherlands >>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun May 9 17:09:12 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 19:09:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Caley, Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, please, attach here the list of your publications? Best, Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith napisa?(a): > Dear Artur, > > I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict > themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers > or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind > of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta > system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one > which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as > consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the > poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much > mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case > that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual > could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, > merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say > the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are > focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed > to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to > enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a > vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual > ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is > happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative > justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean > that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write > about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine > Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban > logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic > civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from > which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political > organizations that employed them. > > On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic > tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the > Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that > would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal > to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and > would love to know more. > > Best, > Caley > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: > >> Tak. >> >> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >> >> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist (Caley: > am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >> point.>). >> >> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >> >> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >> >> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >> them linguistically - and conceptually? >> >> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >> >> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >> the Vedic tradition? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear Jan, >>> >>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>> >>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know >>> of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>> >>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>> >>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place >>>> at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is >>>> entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) >>>> is accessible on several lists. >>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the >>>> beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references >>>> to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is >>>> found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden >>>> 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between >>>> Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their >>>> cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during >>>> the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the >>>> organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over >>>> a separate service, sli.do." >>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass >>>> the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who >>>> wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" >>>> -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this >>>> Indology List. >>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book >>>> of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous >>>> moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where >>>> we read: >>>> >>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>>> them. >>>> ... >>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>> Reich. >>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German >>>> Art >>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban >>>> and >>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>> >>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very >>>> different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins >>>> in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: >>>> >>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, >>>> Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, >>>> Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. >>>> 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>> >>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>> >>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of >>>> the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>> and Houben 2019: >>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual >>>> Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian >>>> ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and >>>> Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s >>>> Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 >>>> (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. >>>> 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>> >>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. >>>> >>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>> >>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>> >>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>> >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>> >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> >>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>> >>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>> >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> * >>>> >>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>> >>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>> transmission >>>> >>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu Sun May 9 19:00:50 2021 From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 21:00:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] "Buddhist Manuscript Discoveries at Mes Aynak: A Tricky Philological In Situ-ation" Charles DiSimone, May 11 2021 Message-ID: With all apologies for cross posting, this may be of interest to some members of the list. Dear Friends, I am sorry to inform you that Ingo Strauch has had to cancel his upcoming talk: ?Newly discovered ??rad? documents from a private collection in the UK?, on short notice which was to be the eighth and final lecture in the Ghent Center for Buddhist Studies Spring Lecture Series (Permanent Training in Buddhist Studies (PTBS)) generously sponsored by the Tianzhu Foundation. Due to this absence, I will fill in with a talk on a somewhat similar theme that may be of interest to those who had planned to attend the scheduled lecture. The lecture will be on May 11, 2021 at 19.00 Belgian time. All lectures in this series will be held remotely over Zoom. Interested parties are welcome to attend the series or individual talks. To register for this talk and get the Zoom link, or if you would like to be informed of future talks in our next lecture series (Spring 2022), please write to CBS at ugent.be. Please note, due to a recent cyber attack in Belgium, even if you registered for previous talks you should still register once again to attend. *Buddhist Manuscript Discoveries at Mes Aynak: A Tricky Philological In Situ-ation* *Charles DiSimone* *Ghent University* The ancient city of Mes Aynak, located about 40 km from Kabul in Afghanistan, sits atop the largest deposit of copper in the world. It has been an important location for copper mining and smelting from at least the late Bronze Age until perhaps around the 6th century CE and was continuously inhabited for several centuries thereafter. In addition to being a location of copper production, the area was the center of a strong Buddhist influence housing a monastic complex and multiple temples, but it also held multiple Zoroastrian shrines. New manuscript discoveries have been uncovered over the last few years in the course of the archeological excavation of the site. The manuscript material uncovered so far indicate the cosmopolitan nature of the area with Buddhist material in Sanskrit spanning both Mah?y?na and ?r?vakay?na (Mainstream) Buddhist thought as well as the presence of Bactrian documentation, a language that was not typically used in the transmission of Buddhist textuality. In this talk I will discuss this new manuscript evidence, which holds unique challenges to study, focusing on an analysis of seven groups manuscript fragments found at the site copied on birch bark folios in the Gilgit/Bamiyan Type I script dating from between the 6th?7th centuries of the Common Era. *Bio* *Charles DiSimone *is an FWO Postdoctoral Researcher at Ghent University. He received his doctorate from Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen and has held positions at the Buddhist Digital Resource Center, LMU Munich, and Mahidol University. His research primarily focuses upon the applications of philological, codicological, and critical analysis of Buddhist *s?tra* manuscripts and literature, both Mah?y?na and Mainstream. Recent publications include research on scribal practices in the Gilgit area and Greater Gandh?ra and a forthcoming book on the (M?la-)Sarv?stiv?da *D?rgh?gama *manuscript (Wisdom 2021). Dr. Charles DiSimone Department of Languages and Cultures Ghent University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith.caley at gmail.com Sun May 9 19:06:03 2021 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 15:06:03 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Artur, Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic performativity/textuality ( https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas ) and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through that specific context ( https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice ) (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) Best, Caley On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: > Dear Caley, > > Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, > please, attach here the list of your publications? > > Best, > > Artur > > > Wolny > od wirus?w. www.avast.com > > <#m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith napisa?(a): > >> Dear Artur, >> >> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >> organizations that employed them. >> >> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >> would love to know more. >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Tak. >>> >>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>> >>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist (Caley: >>> >> that point.>). >>> >>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>> >>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>> >>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>> >>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>> >>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>> the Vedic tradition? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> Wolny >>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>> >>>> Dear Jan, >>>> >>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>> >>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know >>>> of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>> >>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>> >>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several lists. >>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the >>>>> beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references >>>>> to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is >>>>> found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden >>>>> 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between >>>>> Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their >>>>> cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during >>>>> the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the >>>>> organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over >>>>> a separate service, sli.do." >>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where >>>>> we read: >>>>> >>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>>>> them. >>>>> ... >>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>> Reich. >>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>> German Art >>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>> urban and >>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>> >>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>> in: >>>>> >>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, >>>>> Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, >>>>> Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. >>>>> 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>> >>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>> >>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of >>>>> the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>>>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual >>>>> Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian >>>>> ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and >>>>> Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s >>>>> Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 >>>>> (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. >>>>> 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>> >>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. >>>>> >>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>> >>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>> >>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>> >>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>> >>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>> >>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>> >>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>> >>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>> >>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>>> transmission >>>>> >>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Sun May 9 22:22:44 2021 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 00:22:44 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... best wishes, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear Artur, > > Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic texts > conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. and > their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published yet > and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this are > in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s > A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I > will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking > about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic > Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One Yaj?a, > Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between > Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization > of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as > Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and > Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) > > Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic > performativity/textuality ( > https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas > ) > and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through that > specific context > ( > https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice > ) > (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) > > Best, > Caley > > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: > >> Dear Caley, >> >> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >> please, attach here the list of your publications? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >> napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear Artur, >>> >>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>> organizations that employed them. >>> >>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>> would love to know more. >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>>> Tak. >>>> >>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>> >>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>> (Caley: >>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>> >>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>> >>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>> >>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>> >>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>> >>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> >>>> Wolny >>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> <#m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>> >>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>> >>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We >>>>> know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>>>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>> >>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Caley >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several lists. >>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly >>>>>> to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the >>>>>> German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference by >>>>>> Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the special >>>>>> section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers >>>>>> will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where >>>>>> we read: >>>>>> >>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>>>>> them. >>>>>> ... >>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>> Reich. >>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>> German Art >>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>> urban and >>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>> >>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>> in: >>>>>> >>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>> >>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>> >>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>>>>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>> discussions. >>>>>> >>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>> >>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>> >>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>> >>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>> >>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>> >>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>> >>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>>>> transmission >>>>>> >>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun May 9 22:33:49 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 00:33:49 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Caley, I took a look at the list of your publications posted at Academia.edu. The article on the poetics of Vedic texts (especially valuable remarks on the forms of transforming the meaning of texts by translators so that it corresponds to non-Indian ideas about the nature of religiosity and its relation to poetry); a concise essay on the history of Indo-Aryan languages. Thanks, and - best, again, Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith napisa?(a): > Dear Artur, > > Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic texts > conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. and > their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published yet > and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this are > in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s > A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I > will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking > about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic > Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One Yaj?a, > Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between > Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization > of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as > Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and > Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) > > Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic > performativity/textuality ( > https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas > ) > and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through that > specific context > ( > https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice > ) > (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) > > Best, > Caley > > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: > >> Dear Caley, >> >> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >> please, attach here the list of your publications? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_533462762129386197_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >> napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear Artur, >>> >>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>> organizations that employed them. >>> >>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>> would love to know more. >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>>> Tak. >>>> >>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>> >>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>> (Caley: >>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>> >>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>> >>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>> >>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>> >>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>> >>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> >>>> Wolny >>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> <#m_533462762129386197_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>> >>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>> >>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We >>>>> know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>>>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>> >>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Caley >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several lists. >>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly >>>>>> to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the >>>>>> German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference by >>>>>> Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the special >>>>>> section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers >>>>>> will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where >>>>>> we read: >>>>>> >>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>>>>> them. >>>>>> ... >>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>> Reich. >>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>> German Art >>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>> urban and >>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>> >>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>> in: >>>>>> >>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>> >>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>> >>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>>>>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>> discussions. >>>>>> >>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>> >>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>> >>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>> >>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>> >>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>> >>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>> >>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>> >>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>>>> transmission >>>>>> >>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun May 9 23:36:01 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 01:36:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Vai?ya* - a merchant? Or - rather - a representative of *vi?,* the agriculturalists' community? Best, Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#m_-826862488082158812_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 00:22 Joanna Jurewicz napisa?(a): > Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. > > Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a > king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also > to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of > Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... > > best wishes, > > Joanna > > --- > > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies > > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > > 00-927 Warszawa , Poland > > Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages > > College of Human Sciences > > UNISA > > Pretoria, RSA > > Member of Academia Europaea > > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Dear Artur, >> >> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >> about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >> Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between >> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >> Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >> >> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >> performativity/textuality ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >> ) >> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >> that specific context >> ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >> ) >> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Dear Caley, >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> Wolny >>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_-826862488082158812_m_1421279725244859980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>> napisa?(a): >>> >>>> Dear Artur, >>>> >>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>> organizations that employed them. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>> would love to know more. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tak. >>>>> >>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>> (Caley: >>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>> >>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>> >>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>> >>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>>>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>> >>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolny >>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> <#m_-826862488082158812_m_1421279725244859980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We >>>>>> know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>>>>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>>>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>>>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>>>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>> in: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of >>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>>>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>>>>> transmission >>>>>>> >>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith.caley at gmail.com Mon May 10 01:34:10 2021 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 21:34:10 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Joanna, I suspect that all *var?a*s participated in the "Mantra period" era ceremonies although with different ritual roles/restrictions. When the Spalding Symposium lectures go online, I talk a bit about my preliminary research on this subject. In short, I think *var?a *as represented in the Sa?hit?s is a radically different institution with virtually none of the associations that it would have by the Dharmas?tras. In the R?jas?ya as we have it, I don't think we can equate the figure of the *vai?ya* with a particular "professional type" just yet. Best, Caley On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 6:23 PM Joanna Jurewicz wrote: > Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. > > Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a > king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also > to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of > Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... > > best wishes, > > Joanna > > --- > > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies > > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > > 00-927 Warszawa , Poland > > Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages > > College of Human Sciences > > UNISA > > Pretoria, RSA > > Member of Academia Europaea > > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Dear Artur, >> >> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >> about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >> Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between >> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >> Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >> >> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >> performativity/textuality ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >> ) >> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >> that specific context >> ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >> ) >> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Dear Caley, >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> Wolny >>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_-3365320953737592997_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>> napisa?(a): >>> >>>> Dear Artur, >>>> >>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>> organizations that employed them. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>> would love to know more. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tak. >>>>> >>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>> (Caley: >>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>> >>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>> >>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>> >>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>>>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>> >>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolny >>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> <#m_-3365320953737592997_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We >>>>>> know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>>>>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>>>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>>>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>>>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>> in: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of >>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>>>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>>>>> transmission >>>>>>> >>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Mon May 10 01:42:04 2021 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Sun, 9 May 2021 21:42:04 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt Message-ID: <300E6D3E-39C1-4A6D-94D5-A3C4554890CC@gmail.com> Thank you Caley, I always find Indology-L discussions stimulating, this is more so with your discussion and the shared paper. It brought fond memories of reading the book, Beyond Orality, as part of a seminar class and our contested discussions, in that seminar at McMaster many years ago. Looking forward to reading your book. Thank you. Lavanya Lavanya Vemsani Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies) Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences Shawnee State University President, Ohio Academy of History Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies Editor-in-Chief American Journal of Indic Studies Managing Editor International Journal of Indic Religions Associate Editor -Canadian Journal of History -Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx > On May 9, 2021, at 9:34 PM, Caley Smith via INDOLOGY wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon May 10 03:49:38 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 05:49:38 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] is this the same palm leaf as the one used for writing? (Re: Tamil odiolai and mollakkol In-Reply-To: References: <516105B4-801B-46D3-8DF6-BA90B55458A9@earthlink.net> <8843606C-8CA6-47C7-96C0-892D24BB5599@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8dcb1034-1fd5-36de-9213-90b75a255a27@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Dear VSR, thanks a lot for your clarification, /*?????????????* ?????? (from coconut trees)/ which I find upon waking up this morning on this side of the Atlantic ocean, although it would nevertheless take one hour to fly to the Ocean :-) Yesterday, before going to bed, I had also sent a message to our common friend Sharmila Ganesan (whom I know thanks to you :-) She had also replied to me she thought it was thennai olai and that she would make further verifications. This morning I had another message from her which she sent after consulting with Prof Selvakumar of Tamil University, Thanjai and he also says it appears to be thennai olai. His inputs: Odi = ??? fold He refers to this blog: https://ilupeju.blogspot.com/2009/11/divine-labour-ward.html He also sent a Ph.D. on the topic, which I shall forward privately to you, to Herman and to Srilata because I am not sure how well the PDF would go on the mailing list server The thesis title page says **********************+ UC San Diego UC San Diego Electronic Theses and Dissertations Title Casting Selves: Tradition, Practice, and Ethics in an Artisan Community in India Permalink https://escholarship.org/uc/item/3vc1k17m Author Balaswaminathan, Sowparnika Publication Date 2018 Peer reviewed|Thesis/dissertation **************** I am glad we are having this exchange I really love to learn how things are made :-) ???????? -- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen) https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 09/05/2021 19:06, rajam wrote: > Dear JLC, > > To your nice question ... > > /// I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as > measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for > writing?/// ? > > My quick reply: > > My reading from https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html > > > is that the > leaves used for the measurement ?of making bronze idols are *?????????????* > ?????? (from coconut trees) which are different from *???* ?????? (from > palmyra trees) that I suppose were/are used for writing. > > I?ll share more information if/when I get them. > > Best wishes, > VSR > > > >> On May 8, 2021, at 11:43 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Herman, >> Dear VSR, >> dear Srilata, >> dear all, >> >> being on multiple mailing list is frequently quite nice. >> >> I finally understood just now what Herman's question was all about by >> seeing this picture and its caption >> (I do not know whether the .png picture will make it to the list but >> it is reachable via the links) >> >> Fig. 24. Palm leaf scale ( Tamil = Odi-olai) being used to measure wax >> model of a god >> >> This is from a document available on Research gate >> >> Masters of Fire - Hereditary Bronze Casters of South India >> January 2007 >> Publisher: Deutches Bergbau Museum, BochumEditor: Levy, T.E., Levy, >> A., Sthapathy, R., Sthapathy, S., and Sthapathy, Sr. >> Project: Kidron Valley Cyber-Archaeology Project >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311701962_Masters_of_Fire_-_Hereditary_Bronze_Casters_of_South_India >> >> >> The Research gate link was provided in this thread >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/KvfbkMbLmq4/m/SHVUXgZ-AAAJ >> >> on the ????? ?????? mailing list by ?????? >> >> I had never seen the use of green palm-leaf >> >> I wonder whether the botanical species of palm leaf used here (as >> measurement tool) is the same as that of the palm leaf used for writing? >> >> Herman, are you writing ?review of this 2007 book? >> >> Best wishes to all >> >> -- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen) >> >> >> https://twitter.com/JLC1956 >> >> >> >> On 09/05/2021 02:43, rajam via INDOLOGY wrote: >>> Thank you, Dear Professor Srilata Raman. >>> It?s interesting ? ????? (mozham or mo?am, however we transcribe it) >>> is the length of measurement from one?s elbow up to the tip of the >>> middle finger. So, the length of this ?????/????? would vary depending >>> upon the person who?s doing the measurement. For example, my >>> muzham/mozham/mo?am is about 16-inches. Others? may vary. >>> So, I?m curious about the measurements used in ?ilpa ??stra texts. >>> I?ll keep exploring. >>> Again, thanks Professor Srilata Raman. >>> Regards, >>> rajam >>>> On May 8, 2021, at 5:07 PM, Srilata Raman >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Drs. Rajam and Tieken, >>>> Exactly. The stick (????) is the length of one ????? which, as you and >>>> I know Professor Rajam, is the standard unit of measurement, say to >>>> measure the length of a string of flowers for purchase even today. >>>> With regards, >>>> Srilata Raman >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 7:50 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ? >>>>> *EXTERNAL EMAIL:* >>>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>>> >>>>> I?d analyze ?o?i?lai? as o?i + ?lai (??? + ???; a ?????????? >>>>> vinaittokai); roughly translated ? ?*snapped* palm leaf? >>>>> >>>>> ?o?i" is very commonly used in Tamil. Please check out the meaning >>>>> of ? o?i* ? in TL. >>>>> >>>>> I?ll also ask some Tamil-list members for the exact *measurement* >>>>> of ?o?i? as in ?odiolai." >>>>> >>>>> The rendition ?mollakkol? reflects the aberration from written to >>>>> spoken versions of the language: ????????? > ????????? > ????????? >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> rajam >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On May 8, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. >>>>>> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Dr. Rajam, >>>>>> Thank you very much for the information. mu?akk?l is mentioned in >>>>>> the TL. (mollakkol reminded me of molecule)?Unfortunately,?o?i >>>>>> ?lai is not, so the meaning of o?i is still not clear to me. But I >>>>>> know now how the word is to be written: o?i with short o, not ??i. >>>>>> With kind regards, Herman >>>>>> >>>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>>> The Netherlands >>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> *Van:*rajam > >>>>>> *Verzonden:*zaterdag 8 mei 2021 03:45:40 >>>>>> *Aan:*Tieken, H.J.H. >>>>>> *CC:*indology >>>>>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] Tamil odiolai and mollakkol >>>>>> Dear Professor Tieken, >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is a reference that might help us figure out what the first >>>>>> part -- ?odi? ? in ?odiolai? could mean. >>>>>> >>>>>> https://www.hindutamil.in/news/spirituals/51275--4.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ????????????? ????????????? ?????? ????????????? ??? ??????? ?????. >>>>>> ???????? ??????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? >>>>>> ??????????????????.*???? ??? ???? ?????????? ?????????**????? ????*????? >>>>>> ?????????. >>>>>> ??????? ????????????? ??????????? ???? ??? ???? ??*???*???? -*?????? ??? >>>>>> ????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????*???? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? >>>>>> ?????. ??????? ?????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ?????, ??????, >>>>>> ???? ??????????, ???? ????? ?????????. >>>>>> ????? ??????????? ???????? ????????? ???????: ????????, ??? ???????, ??????? >>>>>> ?????? ???????. >>>>>> ??????? ???? ????????? ????? ??????????????? ????????? ??????? ?????????? >>>>>> ?????????? ?????????????. ????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ????????? >>>>>> ????????? ????????????????????. >>>>>> >>>>>> sorry, at the moment I don?t have sufficient time to translate the >>>>>> above reference-passage for a general audience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> rajam >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 7, 2021, at 11:44 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY >>>>>>> >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear List Members, >>>>>>> I was reading an article on the casting of bronze images in >>>>>>> Tamilnadu. The author, apparently?unfamiliar with written Tamil, >>>>>>> mentions a flexible tape line?called odiolai. The second part is >>>>>>> ?lai, "palmleaf". But what is the first part? >>>>>>> In the same context mention is made of a mollakkol, the last part >>>>>>> of which is most probably k?l, "yardstick". But here too: what is >>>>>>> the first part? I hope someone will be able to tell me what to >>>>>>> make of odi and molla. >>>>>>> Kind regards, Herman >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Herman Tieken >>>>>>> Stationsweg 58 >>>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>>>>>> The Netherlands >>>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>>>>>> website:hermantieken.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> > From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon May 10 07:43:54 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 09:43:54 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Caley, In your reactions I think you have put the finger where it hurts, where the comparison is indeed entirely fraught. I especially like your remarks: (1) ... the middle (even late) Vedic situation ... derives directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis of food production. (2) ... the focus is really on the poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. (3) ... we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks". It is remarkable how arguments about ancient India often try to move around on the map monolithic and mono-linguistic communities, without inner differentiation and inner (social, sociolinguistic) dynamics. Your work is an exception, as is the work of Heesterman and a few others. All best, Jan On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 18:12, Caley Smith wrote: > Dear Artur, > > I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict > themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers > or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind > of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta > system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one > which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as > consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the > poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much > mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case > that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual > could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, > merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say > the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are > focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed > to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to > enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a > vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual > ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is > happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative > justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean > that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write > about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine > Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban > logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic > civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from > which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political > organizations that employed them. > > On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic > tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the > Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that > would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal > to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and > would love to know more. > > Best, > Caley > > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: > >> Tak. >> >> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >> >> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist (Caley: > am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >> point.>). >> >> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >> >> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >> >> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >> them linguistically - and conceptually? >> >> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >> >> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >> the Vedic tradition? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-7264235053288402029_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear Jan, >>> >>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>> >>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We know >>> of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>> >>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>> >>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place >>>> at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is >>>> entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) >>>> is accessible on several lists. >>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the >>>> beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references >>>> to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is >>>> found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden >>>> 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between >>>> Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their >>>> cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during >>>> the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the >>>> organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over >>>> a separate service, sli.do." >>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass >>>> the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who >>>> wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" >>>> -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this >>>> Indology List. >>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book >>>> of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous >>>> moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where >>>> we read: >>>> >>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like >>>> them. >>>> ... >>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>> Reich. >>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German >>>> Art >>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban >>>> and >>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>> >>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very >>>> different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins >>>> in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: >>>> >>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, >>>> Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, >>>> Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. >>>> 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>> >>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>> >>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of >>>> the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, >>>> 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>> and Houben 2019: >>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual >>>> Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian >>>> ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and >>>> Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s >>>> Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 >>>> (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. >>>> 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>> >>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. >>>> >>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>> >>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>> >>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>> >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>> >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> >>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>> >>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>> >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> * >>>> >>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>> >>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>> transmission >>>> >>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon May 10 07:57:39 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 09:57:39 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Joanna, I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or pdf... No result on archive.org either. Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such a scan and can share it... Best regards, Jan On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz wrote: > Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. > > Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a > king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also > to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of > Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... > > best wishes, > > Joanna > > --- > > Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz > > Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies > > Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies > > Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw > > ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 > > 00-927 Warszawa , Poland > > Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages > > College of Human Sciences > > UNISA > > Pretoria, RSA > > Member of Academia Europaea > > https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz > > > niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Dear Artur, >> >> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >> about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >> Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between >> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >> Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >> >> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >> performativity/textuality ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >> ) >> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >> that specific context >> ( >> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >> ) >> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> >> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >> >>> Dear Caley, >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> Wolny >>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>> napisa?(a): >>> >>>> Dear Artur, >>>> >>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>> organizations that employed them. >>>> >>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>> would love to know more. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tak. >>>>> >>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>> (Caley: >>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>> >>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>> >>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>> >>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible to >>>>> them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>> >>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>> >>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolny >>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> <#m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>> >>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my musings >>>>>> are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a kind of >>>>>> anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. Rather, >>>>>> the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were *urban*! We >>>>>> know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam to the troubadours of >>>>>> Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in their verbal art yet >>>>>> that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. So are all these >>>>>> "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. There is a much more >>>>>> immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred landscapes, namely >>>>>> they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords of the country >>>>>> (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the government. >>>>>> Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this model, no? >>>>>> Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>> >>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>> in: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of >>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the >>>>>>> history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en >>>>>>> Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>>>>> transmission >>>>>>> >>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith.caley at gmail.com Mon May 10 14:25:29 2021 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:25:29 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not "searchable" unfortunately. Best, Caley On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Joanna, > I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or > pdf... > No result on archive.org either. > Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such a > scan and can share it... > Best regards, > Jan > > On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz > wrote: > >> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >> >> Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a >> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also >> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >> >> best wishes, >> >> Joanna >> >> --- >> >> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >> >> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >> >> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >> >> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >> >> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 >> >> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >> >> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >> >> College of Human Sciences >> >> UNISA >> >> Pretoria, RSA >> >> Member of Academia Europaea >> >> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >> >> >> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear Artur, >>> >>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >>> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >>> about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >>> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >>> Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between >>> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >>> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >>> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>> Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>> >>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>> performativity/textuality ( >>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>> ) >>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>> that specific context >>> ( >>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>> ) >>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Caley, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Artur >>>> >>>> >>>> Wolny >>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>> >>>> <#m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>> >>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>>> napisa?(a): >>>> >>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>> >>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>> would love to know more. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Caley >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Tak. >>>>>> >>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>> (Caley: >>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>> >>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>> >>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>> >>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible >>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>> >>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>> >>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolny >>>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <#m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>> >>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but it's >>>>>>> always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a >>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. >>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam >>>>>>> to the troubadours of Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in >>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. >>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. >>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred >>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords >>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the >>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this >>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of >>>>>>>> early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation >>>>>>>> of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural >>>>>>>> selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of >>>>>>>> transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, >>>>>>>> inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present >>>>>>>> the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an >>>>>>>> *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: >>>>>>>> Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of >>>>>>>> India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in >>>>>>>> the history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>> rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: >>>>>>>> 165-194. >>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: >>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon May 10 15:46:09 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 17:46:09 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Colieagues, Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find: https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt Best, Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#m_-855663695347796132_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), > > I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not > "searchable" unfortunately. > > Best, > Caley > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >> Dear Joanna, >> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or >> pdf... >> No result on archive.org either. >> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such >> a scan and can share it... >> Best regards, >> Jan >> >> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz >> wrote: >> >>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >>> >>> Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a >>> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also >>> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >>> >>> best wishes, >>> >>> Joanna >>> >>> --- >>> >>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >>> >>> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >>> >>> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >>> >>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >>> >>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 >>> >>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >>> >>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >>> >>> College of Human Sciences >>> >>> UNISA >>> >>> Pretoria, RSA >>> >>> Member of Academia Europaea >>> >>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >>> >>> >>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>> >>>> Dear Artur, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). I >>>> will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my thinking >>>> about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: Proferes 2007 *Vedic >>>> Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara 2016 "One >>>> Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a Between >>>> Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization >>>> of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the same volume as >>>> Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>> Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>>> >>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>>> performativity/textuality ( >>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>>> ) >>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>>> that specific context >>>> ( >>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>>> ) >>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Caley >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Caley, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Artur >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Wolny >>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>> >>>>> <#m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>>>> napisa?(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>>> >>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, craftsmen, >>>>>> merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I would say >>>>>> the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and rather are >>>>>> focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons (as opposed >>>>>> to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming Vedic >>>>>> tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and "the >>>>>> Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>>> would love to know more. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Tak. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>>> (Caley: >>>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible >>>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find these >>>>>>> kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - but in >>>>>>> the Vedic tradition? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wolny >>>>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <#m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but >>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a >>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. >>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam >>>>>>>> to the troubadours of Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in >>>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. >>>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. >>>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred >>>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords >>>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the >>>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this >>>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at >>>>>>>>> the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture >>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not >>>>>>>>> pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- >>>>>>>>> who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such >>>>>>>>> comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such >>>>>>>>> as this Indology List. >>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third >>>>>>>>> Reich. >>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a >>>>>>>>> very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. >>>>>>>>> Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be >>>>>>>>> available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible >>>>>>>>> on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the >>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) >>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current >>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus >>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added >>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the >>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 >>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological >>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in >>>>>>>>> the history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>>> rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: >>>>>>>>> 165-194. >>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: >>>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >> >> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> >> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >> >> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >> transmission >> >> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Mon May 10 15:51:12 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 17:51:12 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Among other formats *pdf + text* --- fully searchable. Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 17:46 Artur Karp napisa?(a): > Dear Colieagues, > > Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find: > > > https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt > > Best, > > Artur > > > Wolny > od wirus?w. www.avast.com > > <#m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), >> >> I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not >> "searchable" unfortunately. >> >> Best, >> Caley >> >> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Joanna, >>> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or >>> pdf... >>> No result on archive.org either. >>> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such >>> a scan and can share it... >>> Best regards, >>> Jan >>> >>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >>>> >>>> Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over a >>>> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also >>>> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >>>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >>>> >>>> best wishes, >>>> >>>> Joanna >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >>>> >>>> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >>>> >>>> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >>>> >>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >>>> >>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 >>>> >>>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >>>> >>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >>>> >>>> College of Human Sciences >>>> >>>> UNISA >>>> >>>> Pretoria, RSA >>>> >>>> Member of Academia Europaea >>>> >>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >>>> >>>> >>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>> >>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>> >>>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >>>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). >>>>> I will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my >>>>> thinking about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: >>>>> Proferes 2007 *Vedic Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara >>>>> 2016 "One Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yaj?a >>>>> Between Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The >>>>> Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the >>>>> same volume as Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: >>>>> Textual and Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>>>> >>>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>>>> performativity/textuality ( >>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>>>> ) >>>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>>>> that specific context >>>>> ( >>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>>>> ) >>>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Caley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Caley, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Artur >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Wolny >>>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>>> >>>>>> <#m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>> >>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>>>>> napisa?(a): >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, >>>>>>> craftsmen, merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I >>>>>>> would say the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and >>>>>>> rather are focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons >>>>>>> (as opposed to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>>>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming >>>>>>> Vedic tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and >>>>>>> "the Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>>>> would love to know more. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Tak. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>>>> (Caley: >>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible >>>>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal >>>>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of >>>>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find >>>>>>>> these kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - >>>>>>>> but in the Vedic tradition? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wolny >>>>>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <#m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but >>>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a >>>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. >>>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam >>>>>>>>> to the troubadours of Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in >>>>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting. >>>>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly. >>>>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred >>>>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords >>>>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the >>>>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this >>>>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about >>>>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically >>>>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives >>>>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which >>>>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis >>>>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the >>>>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and >>>>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban >>>>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more >>>>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking >>>>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic >>>>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory >>>>>>>>>> at the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture >>>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did >>>>>>>>>> not pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online >>>>>>>>>> questions -- who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no >>>>>>>>>> such comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora >>>>>>>>>> such as this Indology List. >>>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* >>>>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the >>>>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have >>>>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. >>>>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), >>>>>>>>>> where we read: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the >>>>>>>>>> Third Reich. >>>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted >>>>>>>>>> urban and >>>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since >>>>>>>>>> a very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and >>>>>>>>>> M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again >>>>>>>>>> be available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* >>>>>>>>>> accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the >>>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) >>>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current >>>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus >>>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added >>>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the >>>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 >>>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological >>>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in >>>>>>>>>> the history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>>>> rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. >>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic >>>>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. >>>>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: >>>>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>> >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>> >>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>> >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>> >>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>> >>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>> >>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>> >>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>> * >>> >>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>> >>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>> transmission >>> >>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natankor at gmail.com Mon May 10 16:30:58 2021 From: natankor at gmail.com (NK) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 19:30:58 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Thanks a lot for inspiring discussion! Please let me know if anyone is interested in the "searchable" pdf of Heesterman?s Royal Consecration 1957. With great respect and best wishes Cordially Yours Natalia Korneeva ??, 10 ??? 2021 ?. ? 18:55, Artur Karp : > Among other formats *pdf + text* --- fully searchable. > > Artur > > > Wolny > od wirus?w. www.avast.com > > <#m_8406462056754523053_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > pon., 10 maj 2021 o 17:46 Artur Karp napisa?(a): > >> Dear Colieagues, >> >> Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find: >> >> >> https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_8406462056754523053_m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties), >>> >>> I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not >>> "searchable" unfortunately. >>> >>> Best, >>> Caley >>> >>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Joanna, >>>> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan >>>> or pdf... >>>> No result on archive.org either. >>>> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have >>>> such a scan and can share it... >>>> Best regards, >>>> Jan >>>> >>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks. >>>>> >>>>> Am I right that a Vai?ya is one among those who sprinkled water over >>>>> a king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were >>>>> also to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of >>>>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers... >>>>> >>>>> best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Joanna >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz >>>>> >>>>> Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies >>>>> >>>>> Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies >>>>> >>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw >>>>> >>>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 >>>>> >>>>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland >>>>> >>>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages >>>>> >>>>> College of Human Sciences >>>>> >>>>> UNISA >>>>> >>>>> Pretoria, RSA >>>>> >>>>> Member of Academia Europaea >>>>> >>>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>> >>>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic >>>>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc. >>>>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published >>>>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this >>>>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s >>>>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker). >>>>>> I will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my >>>>>> thinking about the *yaj?a *a great deal (too name just a few: >>>>>> Proferes 2007 *Vedic Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, >>>>>> *Ferrara 2016 "One Yaj?a, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The >>>>>> Function of the Yaj?a Between Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 >>>>>> "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of >>>>>> the Sacred" (in the same volume as Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in >>>>>> Ancient India: Textual and Contextual Evidence.? ed. by Lauren Bausch) >>>>>> >>>>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic >>>>>> performativity/textuality ( >>>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas >>>>>> ) >>>>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through >>>>>> that specific context >>>>>> ( >>>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice >>>>>> ) >>>>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_) >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Caley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Caley, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you, >>>>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wolny >>>>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <#m_8406462056754523053_m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith >>>>>>> napisa?(a): >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Artur, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict >>>>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers >>>>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind >>>>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-?rauta >>>>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one >>>>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as >>>>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the >>>>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much >>>>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case >>>>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual >>>>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers, >>>>>>>> craftsmen, merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I >>>>>>>> would say the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and >>>>>>>> rather are focused on a society made of generous and hospitable patrons >>>>>>>> (as opposed to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to >>>>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a >>>>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual >>>>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is >>>>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative >>>>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean >>>>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write >>>>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine >>>>>>>> Buddhist dh?ra??s, for instance, don't have much to say about urban >>>>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic >>>>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from >>>>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political >>>>>>>> organizations that employed them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming >>>>>>>> Vedic tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and >>>>>>>> "the Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that >>>>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal >>>>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and >>>>>>>> would love to know more. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Tak. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist >>>>>>>>> (Caley: >>>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts >>>>>>>>> accessible to them linguistically - and conceptually? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic >>>>>>>>> legal formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban >>>>>>>>> spaces of refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find >>>>>>>>> these kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly - >>>>>>>>> but in the Vedic tradition? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Artur >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wolny >>>>>>>>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <#m_8406462056754523053_m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Jan, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but >>>>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my >>>>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a >>>>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all. >>>>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were >>>>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the >>>>>>>>>> Sangam to the troubadours of Proven?e) who loved to represent the bucolic >>>>>>>>>> scene in their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural >>>>>>>>>> setting. So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? >>>>>>>>>> Hardly. There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have >>>>>>>>>> preferred landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent >>>>>>>>>> landlords of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders >>>>>>>>>> of the government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant >>>>>>>>>> in this model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be >>>>>>>>>> more about constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the >>>>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course >>>>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that >>>>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for >>>>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to >>>>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be >>>>>>>>>> radically different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which >>>>>>>>>> derives directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in >>>>>>>>>> which pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the >>>>>>>>>> basis of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of >>>>>>>>>> the Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence >>>>>>>>>> and the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that >>>>>>>>>> urban centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their >>>>>>>>>> more immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now, >>>>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-A?oka we may have a very different story but I am >>>>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that >>>>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-A?oka then we are >>>>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and >>>>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic >>>>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than >>>>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely >>>>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Caley >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < >>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present >>>>>>>>>>> taking place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing >>>>>>>>>>> epidemic it is entirely online: the announcement ( >>>>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several >>>>>>>>>>> lists. >>>>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory >>>>>>>>>>> at the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive >>>>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched >>>>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture >>>>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred >>>>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and >>>>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference >>>>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the >>>>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and >>>>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do." >>>>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did >>>>>>>>>>> not pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online >>>>>>>>>>> questions -- who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no >>>>>>>>>>> such comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora >>>>>>>>>>> such as this Indology List. >>>>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater >>>>>>>>>>> Magadha* book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does >>>>>>>>>>> not include the anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the >>>>>>>>>>> symposium -- will have immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes >>>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst refers to pp. 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and >>>>>>>>>>> similar passages elsewhere), where we read: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not >>>>>>>>>>> like them. >>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the >>>>>>>>>>> Third Reich. >>>>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of >>>>>>>>>>> German Art >>>>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas >>>>>>>>>>> depicted urban and >>>>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since >>>>>>>>>>> a very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing >>>>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me >>>>>>>>>>> in: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the >>>>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: >>>>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic >>>>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and >>>>>>>>>>> M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again >>>>>>>>>>> be available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* >>>>>>>>>>> accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the >>>>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) >>>>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current >>>>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus >>>>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added >>>>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the >>>>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 >>>>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological >>>>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). >>>>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001: >>>>>>>>>>> ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in >>>>>>>>>>> the history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La >>>>>>>>>>> rationalit? en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. >>>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst: 165-194. >>>>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019: >>>>>>>>>>> ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and >>>>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and >>>>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: >>>>>>>>>>> Vedic Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh >>>>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite?s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren >>>>>>>>>>> M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id., >>>>>>>>>>> ?Bibliography,? pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books >>>>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful >>>>>>>>>>> discussions. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and >>>>>>>>>>> Philology >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et >>>>>>>>>>> Lettres) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>>>>>>>>> * >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: >>>>>>>>>>> construction, transmission >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> *Jan E.M. Houben* >>>> >>>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >>>> >>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >>>> >>>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >>>> >>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >>>> >>>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >>>> >>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >>>> >>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >>>> * >>>> >>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >>>> >>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >>>> transmission >>>> >>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim_ryan at comcast.net Mon May 10 19:21:09 2021 From: jim_ryan at comcast.net (Jim Ryan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 12:21:09 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Message-ID: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James Ryan Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Mon May 10 19:28:02 2021 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:28:02 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Jim, See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got it from Gombrich. Andrew On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in *The Language of the Gods in the World of Men *(p. 52) > suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit > *s?tra,* but rather from *s?kta. *Sanskrit double consonant clusters do > show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, > where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m > interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not > noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > California Institute of Integral Studies > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmcgover at fandm.edu Mon May 10 19:50:35 2021 From: nmcgover at fandm.edu (Nathan McGovern) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:50:35 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Jim, I have a brief critique of the sukta hypothesis in "Protestant Presuppositions and the Study of the Early Buddhist Oral Tradition," JIABS 42 (2019), 464n24. Nathan McGovern University of Wisconsin-Whitewater On 5/10/2021 2:21 PM, Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in /The Language of the Gods in the World of Men /(p. > 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the > Sanskrit /s?tra,/?but rather from /s?kta. /Sanskrit double consonant > clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, > in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of > them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s > suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first > read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > California Institute of Integral Studies > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Mon May 10 20:13:54 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 20:13:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: Andrew Ollett Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM To: Jim Ryan Cc: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Jim, See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got it from Gombrich. Andrew On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James Ryan Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) California Institute of Integral Studies _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de Mon May 10 20:36:41 2021 From: straubem at staff.uni-marburg.de (Martin Straube) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 22:36:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <20210510223641.Horde.8iTr1ufMaKhJWp2j4w8NVvF@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> See also: Konrad Klaus: Zu den buddhistischen literarischen Fachbegriffen sutta und suttanta. In: From Turfan to Ajanta. Festschrift for Dieter Schlingloff on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday. Edited by Eli Franco and Monika Zin. Lumbini 2010, p. 519-532. Martin Straube Zitat von "Lubin, Tim" : > Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites > Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta > is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in > Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. > > Tim Lubin > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Andrew Ollett > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM > To: Jim Ryan > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Dear Jim, > > See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: > > https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up > > K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose > Pollock got it from Gombrich. > > Andrew > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > > > wrote: > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. > 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the > Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant > clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and > progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a > double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on > Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, > when I first read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > California Institute of Integral Studies > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Mon May 10 20:50:28 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 20:50:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <20210510223641.Horde.8iTr1ufMaKhJWp2j4w8NVvF@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu>, <20210510223641.Horde.8iTr1ufMaKhJWp2j4w8NVvF@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Message-ID: It was, in fact, the late Steven Collins who both endorsed his teacher Richard Gombrich?s adoption of this interpretation and familiarized his colleagues at the University of Chicago - Sheldon Pollock and others - with same. Matthew Kapstein Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Martin Straube via INDOLOGY Sent: Monday, May 10, 2021 10:36:41 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta See also: Konrad Klaus: Zu den buddhistischen literarischen Fachbegriffen sutta und suttanta. In: From Turfan to Ajanta. Festschrift for Dieter Schlingloff on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday. Edited by Eli Franco and Monika Zin. Lumbini 2010, p. 519-532. Martin Straube Zitat von "Lubin, Tim" : > Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites > Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta > is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in > Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. > > Tim Lubin > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Andrew Ollett > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM > To: Jim Ryan > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Dear Jim, > > See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: > > https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up > > K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose > Pollock got it from Gombrich. > > Andrew > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > > > wrote: > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. > 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the > Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant > clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and > progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a > double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on > Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, > when I first read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > California Institute of Integral Studies > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Mon May 10 22:20:06 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 18:20:06 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Benfey's biography Message-ID: <2edc6f57-0cdf-be02-3077-e496ef9662df@sas.upenn.edu> Dear colleagues, I am happy to report that there indeed exists a privately printed biography of Benfey by his daughter, of considerably greater magnitude and import than the introduction in his /Kleine Schriften/ in that it features extensive correspondence. Our colleague Anett Krause has discovered a copy of it in the library of the University of Leipzig. It is now digitized and available. Benfey, Meta: Theodor Benfey. Zum Andenken f?r seine Kinder und Enkel. [Bad Nauheim: Verlag nicht ermittelbar, 1909?], 444 Seiten. Anmerkungen: Diese Biographie besteht zum gr?ssten Teil aus Briefen von Theodor Benfey, Ort und Datierung unter dem Vorwort: Bad Nauheim, 3. Juli 1909.?Provenienz: Hertel, Johannes / Stempel. https://digital.ub.uni-leipzig.de/object/viewid/0000032302 Happy reading! Rosane Rocher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Mon May 10 23:28:55 2021 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 23:28:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no support for a derivation of sutta from s?kta. (In der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? sutta- eigentlich s?kta- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking sutta; the second of these is precisely s?kta (Pali suvutta): "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (suvutta), as productive, as yielding, as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called sutta.? "For a sutta reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in it these benefits are spoken well (suvutta) since they are spoken in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... Rupert Gethin -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim > wrote: Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Andrew Ollett > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM To: Jim Ryan > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Jim, See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got it from Gombrich. Andrew On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James Ryan Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) California Institute of Integral Studies _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Tue May 11 05:41:40 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 05:41:40 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Benfey's biography In-Reply-To: <2edc6f57-0cdf-be02-3077-e496ef9662df@sas.upenn.edu> References: <2edc6f57-0cdf-be02-3077-e496ef9662df@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Excellent news! Thanks so much, Rosanne. Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Rosane Rocher via INDOLOGY Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 12:20:06 AM To: Indology List ; Anett Krause Subject: [INDOLOGY] Benfey's biography Dear colleagues, I am happy to report that there indeed exists a privately printed biography of Benfey by his daughter, of considerably greater magnitude and import than the introduction in his Kleine Schriften in that it features extensive correspondence. Our colleague Anett Krause has discovered a copy of it in the library of the University of Leipzig. It is now digitized and available. Benfey, Meta: Theodor Benfey. Zum Andenken f?r seine Kinder und Enkel. [Bad Nauheim: Verlag nicht ermittelbar, 1909?], 444 Seiten. Anmerkungen: Diese Biographie besteht zum gr?ssten Teil aus Briefen von Theodor Benfey, Ort und Datierung unter dem Vorwort: Bad Nauheim, 3. Juli 1909. Provenienz: Hertel, Johannes / Stempel. https://digital.ub.uni-leipzig.de/object/viewid/0000032302 Happy reading! Rosane Rocher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rblinderman at g.harvard.edu Tue May 11 12:04:13 2021 From: rblinderman at g.harvard.edu (Blinderman, Radha) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:04:13 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?PDF_request=3A_Prau=E1=B8=8Dhamanoram=C4=81?= =?utf-8?q?_beyond_the_Avyay=C4=ABbh=C4=81va_section?= Message-ID: Dear All, Does anyone of you have a pdf of the entire *Prau?hamanoram?*, especially beyond the *avyay?bh?vaprakara?a*? I have access to several scans ending with the *avyay?bh?va *section, but cannot find the remaining sections. I would be very grateful if you could share it with me. ?????????? ??????, ?????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Tue May 11 12:15:25 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 12:15:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?PDF_request=3A_Prau=E1=B8=8Dhamanoram=C4=81?= =?utf-8?q?_beyond_the_Avyay=C4=ABbh=C4=81va_section?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Radha, See https://archive.org/details/praudamanoramawithbrihatandlaghushabdaratnapartiibhu/mode/2up [https://archive.org/services/img/praudamanoramawithbrihatandlaghushabdaratnapartiibhu] Prauda Manorama With Brihat And Laghu Shabda Ratna Part II BHU : Arup Kaul : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive Books, 'Prauda Manorama with Brihat and Laghu Shabda Ratna Part II - BHU' archive.org Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Blinderman, Radha Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 8:04 AM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request: Prau?hamanoram? beyond the Avyay?bh?va section Dear All, Does anyone of you have a pdf of the entire Prau?hamanoram?, especially beyond the avyay?bh?vaprakara?a? I have access to several scans ending with the avyay?bh?va section, but cannot find the remaining sections. I would be very grateful if you could share it with me. ?????????? ??????, ?????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rblinderman at g.harvard.edu Tue May 11 12:26:41 2021 From: rblinderman at g.harvard.edu (Blinderman, Radha) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:26:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?PDF_request=3A_Prau=E1=B8=8Dhamanoram=C4=81?= =?utf-8?q?_beyond_the_Avyay=C4=ABbh=C4=81va_section?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, Thank you so much! I just got the parts of the PM that I needed. Gratefully, Radhika On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:04 PM Blinderman, Radha wrote: > Dear All, > > Does anyone of you have a pdf of the entire *Prau?hamanoram?*, especially > beyond the *avyay?bh?vaprakara?a*? I have access to several scans ending > with the *avyay?bh?va *section, but cannot find the remaining sections. I > would be very grateful if you could share it with me. > > ?????????? ??????, > ?????? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Tue May 11 13:22:50 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 13:22:50 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v-, as Skt ukta ~ P?li vutta and similarly in other MIA languages, which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root *vac- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical ?etymologies? (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic br?hma?a-prose), which are alternative or mutually complementary. The last of the six offered here relies on the ?thread? meaning, explained using two distinct analogies which, if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal meaning of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather to a stronger awareness of sutta as connected with threads: ? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti eva? etam pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na vikir?yanti na viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?. The trans. of the whole passage: This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise A plumb-line; therefore Sutta is its name. For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that it well protects and guards the Good. It is a measure to the wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters. And just as flowers strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good strung together by it does not perish. Hence it has been said, to facilitate the study of the word-definition: This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise A plumb-line; therefore Sutta is its name. (tr. Maung Tin, The Expositor, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: Rupert Gethin Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM To: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no support for a derivation of sutta from s?kta. (In der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? sutta- eigentlich s?kta- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking sutta; the second of these is precisely s?kta (Pali suvutta): "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (suvutta), as productive, as yielding, as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called sutta.? "For a sutta reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in it these benefits are spoken well (suvutta) since they are spoken in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... Rupert Gethin -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim > wrote: Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Andrew Ollett > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM To: Jim Ryan > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Jim, See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got it from Gombrich. Andrew On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James Ryan Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) California Institute of Integral Studies _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Tue May 11 13:52:04 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 13:52:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk>, <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh 1.1.2: ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for knitting the flowers that are the Upani?adic passages; for, the Upani?adic passages themselves are examined through the s?tras." One benefit of reading sutta as s?kta is that it is no longer mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate s?tra with being short and having few worlds and syllables. Best wishes Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Lubin, Tim Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM To: Rupert Gethin ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v-, as Skt ukta ~ P?li vutta and similarly in other MIA languages, which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root *vac- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical ?etymologies? (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic br?hma?a-prose), which are alternative or mutually complementary. The last of the six offered here relies on the ?thread? meaning, explained using two distinct analogies which, if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal meaning of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather to a stronger awareness of sutta as connected with threads: ? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti eva? etam pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na vikir?yanti na viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?. The trans. of the whole passage: This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise A plumb-line; therefore Sutta is its name. For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that it well protects and guards the Good. It is a measure to the wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters. And just as flowers strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good strung together by it does not perish. Hence it has been said, to facilitate the study of the word-definition: This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise A plumb-line; therefore Sutta is its name. (tr. Maung Tin, The Expositor, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: Rupert Gethin Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM To: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no support for a derivation of sutta from s?kta. (In der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? sutta- eigentlich s?kta- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking sutta; the second of these is precisely s?kta (Pali suvutta): "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (suvutta), as productive, as yielding, as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called sutta.? "For a sutta reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in it these benefits are spoken well (suvutta) since they are spoken in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... Rupert Gethin -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim > wrote: Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Andrew Ollett > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM To: Jim Ryan > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Jim, See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got it from Gombrich. Andrew On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James Ryan Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) California Institute of Integral Studies _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Tue May 11 14:06:30 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 07:06:30 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: If I remember, the term *sutta *is found in a passage describing the views of one of the ?j?vikas (*suttagul?e khitte*), where it clearly refers to a thread. Is the term *sutta *as a kind of text found anywhere other than in the titles of texts? In other words, does the word *sutta *as a kind of text belong to the oldest stratum of Pali, or is it only a sort of editorial usage? Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 6:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh > 1.1.2: ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi > s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for knitting the flowers that > are the Upani?adic passages; for, the Upani?adic passages themselves are > examined through the s?tras." > > One benefit of reading *sutta* as *s?kta* is that it is no longer > mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so > much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate *s?tra* with > being short and having few worlds and syllables. > > Best wishes > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Lector in Sanskrit > > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Lubin, Tim > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM > *To:* Rupert Gethin ; > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > > But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the > regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt > *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all > seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel > ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). > > > And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical ?etymologies? > (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic *br?hma?a-*prose), which > are alternative or mutually complementary. The last of the six offered > here relies on the ?thread? meaning, explained using *two* distinct > analogies which, if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal > meaning of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather to > a stronger awareness of *sutta* as connected with threads: > > > > *? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti eva? etam > pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na vikir?yanti na > viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?.* > > > > The trans. of the whole passage: > > > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name. > > > > For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. > > It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has > > been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their > > fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that > > it well protects and guards the Good. *It is a measure to the* > > *wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters*. And *just as flowers* > > *strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good* > > *strung together by it does not peris*h. Hence it has been said, > > to facilitate the study of the word-definition: > > > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name. > > (tr. Maung Tin, *The Expositor*, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 > > > > Best, > Tim > > > > _________________________________________ > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > > > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > > > > > > > *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > *Reply-To: *Rupert Gethin > *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM > *To: *INDOLOGY > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > > > Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no > support for a derivation of *sutta* from *s?kta*. (In > der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? *sutta*- eigentlich > *s?kta*- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die > lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) > > > > However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes > and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking *sutta;* the > second of these is precisely *s?kta* (Pali *suvutta*): > > > > "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (*suvutta*), as productive, > as yielding, > > as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called *sutta*.? > > > "For a *sutta* reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in > it these benefits are spoken well (*suvutta*) since they are spoken > in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" > > > > atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | > sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || > > > > ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha > atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... > > > > Rupert Gethin > > -- > > *Rupert Gethin* > > Professor of Buddhist Studies > University of Bristol > > Department of Religion and Theology > > 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK > > > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > > On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim wrote: > > > > Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites > Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from *s?kta* is > ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s > *Atthas?lin?* 19.15?26 as evidence against it. > > > > Tim Lubin > > > > > > *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > *Reply-To: *Andrew Ollett > *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM > *To: *Jim Ryan > *Cc: *INDOLOGY > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: > > > > https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up > > > > > K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got > it from Gombrich. > > > > Andrew > > > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Sheldon Pollock in *The Language of the Gods in the World of Men *(p. 52) > suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit > *s?tra,* but rather from *s?kta. *Sanskrit double consonant clusters do > show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, > where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m > interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not > noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. > > > > James Ryan > > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > > California Institute of Integral Studies > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Tue May 11 14:26:18 2021 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 10:26:18 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> (Tim Lubin's message of "Tue, 11 May 2021 13:22:50 +0000") References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <875yzp1h4l.fsf@lmu.de> Dear Tim, > But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the > regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v- yes, in the intentionally transparent formation used in the nibbacana you cite, but maybe that does not on its own exclude an opaque doublet sutta < s?kta. On the other hand, in the first century CE in G?ndh?r? (the only MIA language that in principle preserved the contrast between OIA kt and tr), the word is consistently spelled sutra- and always means ?canonical Buddhist text? (for some value of ?canonical?), and in some third/fourth-century secular documents it refers to literal thread or rope: https://gandhari.org/dictionary/sutra There are no discussions about the meaning or etymology of the word in what we have of that tradition, but it contrasts with nide?a- ?explanation? in a set of commentaries: https://gandhari.org/corpus/ckm0004 https://gandhari.org/corpus/ckm0009 https://gandhari.org/corpus/ckm0011 https://gandhari.org/corpus/ckm0015 https://gandhari.org/corpus/ckm0020 Neither the Pali nor the G?ndh?r? evidence rules out reinterpretations in the first four hundred years of the Buddhist tradition, of course, and Buddhaghosa?s passage may preserve an echo. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From smith.caley at gmail.com Tue May 11 14:26:56 2021 From: smith.caley at gmail.com (Caley Smith) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 10:26:56 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks all for a very interesting discussion. I was wondering Nathan, if you might say a bit more about your critique of the s?kta hypothesis, or perhaps send me your article. I kind of favor it myself, but I want to know your take as your book has been so influential on my more recent thinking of the web of LateVedic/Renouncer/Householder webs of conceptual reinvention. The reason I was partial to the *s?kta *model, is I think Rigvedic *s?kta*s (from the perspective of the anthologizers of the text and maintainers of the *anukrama??*s) are conceptually animate. That is the reperformed speech act of a figure of memory, who could be a legendary human, god, or even a river. Figures like Atri and the "Atris" that followed him. Whatever their vision-experience was (*dh?*) it was wrought into the form of a poem, frozen in verbal amber, and thus the oral tradition is preserving not just the words of legendary figures but their perspective, breath, mind, etc. (the components of the self in the later Vedic tradition that frequently enter and exit the figure of Praj?pati). In the Rigveda itself, we see *satyam uktam, *but I don't think it's until the Khil?ni that we get *s?ktam vacas *with the explicit noun the adjective modifies before its history of adjective substantivization takes its course. It is not just "well" said, I think but "truly" said. The re-performance of something imagined to have been an original first performance once upon a time. When Atri found the Sun, or when Vasi??ha aided Sud?s, when Indra turned the Maruts into his entourage, when Vi?v?mitra cajoled the rivers Vip?? and ?utudr?, etc. In other words a kind if impersonation and re-enactment is, I will argue in my book *the Invisible Mask *baked into much of the Rigvedic s?ktas (of the inner ma??alas at least) as an exponent of a particular kind of textuality. In an oral tradition you will never encounter a "dead text" like a book that merely contains information, you will encounter a person, a father, whose voice is laden with the voices of an unbroken succession of fathers, going back to a legendary forerunner. An animate voice, an active intelligence, who embodies generations of poetic intelligences going back to an imagined First (most of my thoughts on all of this are in my book ms *The Invisible Mask*). Compare this to the earliest text we think of as a s?tra, the *Baudh?yana?rautas?tra, *is not like this at all. They are stage directions that only refer to the actor's script when necessary. Personal identity is extremely understated, the assumed subject of the verb is often just whoever is the acting *adhvaryu* or if not him then it's just the *yajam?na* but these are offices not individuals. Their textuality, their performativity, is very different than that of the *s?kta*. So, I suppose it's worth asking: which of the two is the *buddhavacanam* more like? Is reciting the *buddhavacanam* a kind of impersonation? Speak like the Buddha to be more like the Buddha? Does it have this kind of re-enactive/impersonation component in the way I think the mantra-period *yaj?a* did? Or are they more like stage directions? Or perhaps they are nothing like either of these and wholly dissimilar to Vedic textualities. Not knowing the Buddhist materials nearly as well as the other contributors to this thread, I am extremely curious about your thoughts on this. Best, Caley On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh > 1.1.2: ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi > s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for knitting the flowers that > are the Upani?adic passages; for, the Upani?adic passages themselves are > examined through the s?tras." > > One benefit of reading *sutta* as *s?kta* is that it is no longer > mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so > much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate *s?tra* with > being short and having few worlds and syllables. > > Best wishes > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Lector in Sanskrit > > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of > Lubin, Tim > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM > *To:* Rupert Gethin ; > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > > But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the > regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt > *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all > seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel > ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). > > > And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical ?etymologies? > (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic *br?hma?a-*prose), which > are alternative or mutually complementary. The last of the six offered > here relies on the ?thread? meaning, explained using *two* distinct > analogies which, if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal > meaning of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather to > a stronger awareness of *sutta* as connected with threads: > > > > *? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti eva? etam > pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na vikir?yanti na > viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?.* > > > > The trans. of the whole passage: > > > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name. > > > > For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. > > It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has > > been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their > > fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that > > it well protects and guards the Good. *It is a measure to the* > > *wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters*. And *just as flowers* > > *strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good* > > *strung together by it does not peris*h. Hence it has been said, > > to facilitate the study of the word-definition: > > > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name. > > (tr. Maung Tin, *The Expositor*, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 > > > > Best, > Tim > > > > _________________________________________ > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > > > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > > > > > > > *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > *Reply-To: *Rupert Gethin > *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM > *To: *INDOLOGY > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > > > Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no > support for a derivation of *sutta* from *s?kta*. (In > der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? *sutta*- eigentlich > *s?kta*- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die > lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) > > > > However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes > and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking *sutta;* the > second of these is precisely *s?kta* (Pali *suvutta*): > > > > "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (*suvutta*), as productive, > as yielding, > > as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called *sutta*.? > > > "For a *sutta* reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in > it these benefits are spoken well (*suvutta*) since they are spoken > in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" > > > > atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | > sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || > > > > ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha > atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... > > > > Rupert Gethin > > -- > > *Rupert Gethin* > > Professor of Buddhist Studies > University of Bristol > > Department of Religion and Theology > > 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK > > > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > > On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim wrote: > > > > Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites > Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from *s?kta* is > ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s > *Atthas?lin?* 19.15?26 as evidence against it. > > > > Tim Lubin > > > > > > *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of > INDOLOGY > *Reply-To: *Andrew Ollett > *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM > *To: *Jim Ryan > *Cc: *INDOLOGY > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: > > > > https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up > > > > > K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got > it from Gombrich. > > > > Andrew > > > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > Sheldon Pollock in *The Language of the Gods in the World of Men *(p. 52) > suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit > *s?tra,* but rather from *s?kta. *Sanskrit double consonant clusters do > show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, > where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m > interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not > noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. > > > > James Ryan > > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > > California Institute of Integral Studies > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Tue May 11 14:30:16 2021 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 16:30:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: *Carakasa?hit?* 1.30.1 (which can be dated to the first century CE) refers to the word *s?tra* with the meaning ?[corpus of authoritative] knowledge? in a list of synonyms in a quite general way: *tatr?yurveda? ??kh? vidy? s?tra? j??na? ??stra? lak?a?a? tantram ity anarth?ntaram* (ed. J?davji Trikamj? ?c?rya (ed.), *Caraka Sa?hit? by Agnive?a. Revised by Caraka and D??habala. With the ?yurveda-D?pik? Commentary of Cakrap??idatta. *Repr. of the ed. Bombay 1941, p. 189b). For the author of this passage, brevity of expression apparently was not an important characteristic of a *s?tra*. __________________________ PD Dr. Philipp A. Maas Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter (Research Associate) Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 11. Mai 2021 um 16:08 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > If I remember, the term *sutta *is found in a passage describing the > views of one of the ?j?vikas (*suttagul?e khitte*), where it clearly > refers to a thread. Is the term *sutta *as a kind of text found anywhere > other than in the titles of texts? In other words, does the word *sutta *as > a kind of text belong to the oldest stratum of Pali, or is it only a sort > of editorial usage? > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 6:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh >> 1.1.2: ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi >> s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for knitting the flowers that >> are the Upani?adic passages; for, the Upani?adic passages themselves are >> examined through the s?tras." >> >> One benefit of reading *sutta* as *s?kta* is that it is no longer >> mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so >> much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate *s?tra* with >> being short and having few worlds and syllables. >> >> Best wishes >> Aleksandar >> >> Aleksandar Uskokov >> >> Lector in Sanskrit >> >> South Asian Studies Council, Yale University >> >> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> Lubin, Tim >> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM >> *To:* Rupert Gethin ; >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta >> >> >> But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the >> regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt >> *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all >> seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel >> ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). >> >> >> And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical >> ?etymologies? (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic >> *br?hma?a-*prose), which are alternative or mutually complementary. The >> last of the six offered here relies on the ?thread? meaning, explained >> using *two* distinct analogies which, if anything about the author?s >> sense of the basic literal meaning of the term is to be inferred from that >> fact, would point rather to a stronger awareness of *sutta* as connected >> with threads: >> >> >> >> *? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti eva? >> etam pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na vikir?yanti na >> viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?.* >> >> >> >> The trans. of the whole passage: >> >> >> >> This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, >> >> Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise >> >> A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name. >> >> >> >> For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. >> >> It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has >> >> been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their >> >> fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that >> >> it well protects and guards the Good. *It is a measure to the* >> >> *wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters*. And *just as flowers* >> >> *strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good* >> >> *strung together by it does not peris*h. Hence it has been said, >> >> to facilitate the study of the word-definition: >> >> >> >> This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, >> >> Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise >> >> A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name. >> >> (tr. Maung Tin, *The Expositor*, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 >> >> >> >> Best, >> Tim >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> Timothy Lubin >> Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law >> 204 Tucker Hall >> Washington and Lee University >> Lexington, Virginia 24450 >> >> American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 >> National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 >> >> https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ >> >> >> http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin >> >> >> https://ssrn.com/author=930949 >> >> https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of >> INDOLOGY >> *Reply-To: *Rupert Gethin >> *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM >> *To: *INDOLOGY >> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta >> >> >> >> Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no >> support for a derivation of *sutta* from *s?kta*. (In >> der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? *sutta*- eigentlich >> *s?kta*- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die >> lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) >> >> >> >> However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes >> and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking *sutta;* the >> second of these is precisely *s?kta* (Pali *suvutta*): >> >> >> >> "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (*suvutta*), as productive, >> as yielding, >> >> as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called *sutta*.? >> >> >> "For a *sutta* reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in >> it these benefits are spoken well (*suvutta*) since they are spoken >> in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" >> >> >> >> atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | >> sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || >> >> >> >> ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha >> atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... >> >> >> >> Rupert Gethin >> >> -- >> >> *Rupert Gethin* >> >> Professor of Buddhist Studies >> University of Bristol >> >> Department of Religion and Theology >> >> 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK >> >> >> >> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk >> >> >> >> On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim wrote: >> >> >> >> Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites >> Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from *s?kta* is >> ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s >> *Atthas?lin?* 19.15?26 as evidence against it. >> >> >> >> Tim Lubin >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: *INDOLOGY on behalf of >> INDOLOGY >> *Reply-To: *Andrew Ollett >> *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM >> *To: *Jim Ryan >> *Cc: *INDOLOGY >> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta >> >> >> >> Dear Jim, >> >> >> >> See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: >> >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up >> >> >> >> >> K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got >> it from Gombrich. >> >> >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> Sheldon Pollock in *The Language of the Gods in the World of Men *(p. >> 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the >> Sanskrit *s?tra,* but rather from *s?kta. *Sanskrit double consonant >> clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in >> Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m >> interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not >> noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. >> >> >> >> James Ryan >> >> Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) >> >> California Institute of Integral Studies >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Tue May 11 14:41:16 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:41:16 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <875yzp1h4l.fsf@lmu.de> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <875yzp1h4l.fsf@lmu.de> Message-ID: <6E36668F-FB96-4343-8753-C88A10BDCDF2@wlu.edu> Well said, Stefan ;-) but is there any unambiguous attestation of such a doublet sutta with the meaning thread, e.g., not referring to scripture? Re Aleksandar?s remark: One benefit of reading sutta as s?kta is that it is no longer mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate s?tra with being short and having few worlds and syllables. If we recall that the oldest ritual s?tra in Sanskrit, Baudh?yana ?rautas?tra, while showing other structural features of Brahmanical s?tras, does not show the concision of expression that becomes so characteristic, so that feature may not be intrinsic to the format, but rather a development with Brahmanical circles, perhaps influenced by the P??inian model. TL From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Stefan Baums Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:26 AM To: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Tim, But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v- yes, in the intentionally transparent formation used in the nibbacana you cite, but maybe that does not on its own exclude an opaque doublet sutta < s?kta. On the other hand, in the first century CE in G?ndh?r? (the only MIA language that in principle preserved the contrast between OIA kt and tr), the word is consistently spelled sutra- and always means ?canonical Buddhist text? (for some value of ?canonical?), and in some third/fourth-century secular documents it refers to literal thread or rope: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fdictionary%2Fsutra&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933199834%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fwU%2B2QJp3CEEvUj1Dg3bskEMOidsq49eWypQ8F2CIik%3D&reserved=0 There are no discussions about the meaning or etymology of the word in what we have of that tradition, but it contrasts with nide?a- ?explanation? in a set of commentaries: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0004&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933199834%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qfbGrQ06IXGr97CbEH%2FKhfWVRAiz4pU%2FZ7pktKOJuqE%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0009&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=8lsbkkaut1wM9yolruiQqudcok2aM8TVGCR3TOGxAdk%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0011&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=gAP0rO61htQg0TNoRhNRh%2Fs3RSwptumtWp9chJqlPAM%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0015&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pEBpC23YbFAjddmfCTKuFpBjroOXUtjz2bTDtGQNklw%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0020&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Uq1PKo51kaFSUvC81ftrA4o3bVpFuk03sUTdfzZupgw%3D&reserved=0 Neither the Pali nor the G?ndh?r? evidence rules out reinterpretations in the first four hundred years of the Buddhist tradition, of course, and Buddhaghosa?s passage may preserve an echo. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LLkknl0%2Brrc77KbJI0t1MglObYJoNhVWCeyKS6O6UpE%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Tue May 11 14:55:11 2021 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 10:55:11 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: (Caley Smith via INDOLOGY's message of "Tue, 11 May 2021 10:26:56 -0400") References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <871rad1fsg.fsf@lmu.de> Dear Caley, > In an oral tradition you will never encounter a "dead text" like > a book that merely contains information on that note, ???amoli in his translations of the Nettippakara?a and Pe?akopadesa (two Pali texts not unrelated to the G?ndh?r? exegetical tradition) renders sutta as ?Thread, Thread-of-Argument (presenting the Buddha?s teaching).? George Bond has also written extensively about the method of the Nettippakara?a in particular (and the view of sutta embodied in in it). All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From nmcgover at fandm.edu Tue May 11 14:56:47 2021 From: nmcgover at fandm.edu (Nathan McGovern) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 09:56:47 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Dear Caley (but also Aleksandar and Madhav), The problem posed by the markedly non-pithy discursive Pali "suttas" is actually a pseudo-problem. Properly speaking, the Pali discourses are called suttantas (sUtrAnta), and only sutta for short, which implies that they elaborate upon or complete in some way something different, called suttas. The word sutta by itself is used within Pali discourses in particular cases, most notably in various lists of angas, which have been discussed by Lamotte, von Hinueber, and others. These angas probably referred to "genres" so to speak of early Buddhist literature. Sometimes scholars have assumed that the sutta-anga just refers to the suttantas, ie, the discourses as they come down to us, but this is almost certainly incorrect. I argue in the JIABS paper that I already cited that the word sutta referred to the pithy formulations of dhamma that served as oral formulas for use in performing the larger discursive suttantas. Best, Nathan On 5/11/2021 9:26 AM, Caley Smith via INDOLOGY wrote: > Thanks all for a very interesting discussion. > > I was wondering Nathan, if you might say a bit more about your > critique of the s?kta hypothesis, or perhaps send me your article. > I kind of favor it myself, but I want to know your take as your book > has been so influential on my more > recent thinking of the web of LateVedic/Renouncer/Householder webs of > conceptual reinvention. > > ?The reason I was partial to the /s?kta /model, is I think Rigvedic > /s?kta/s (from the perspective of the anthologizers of the text and > maintainers of the > /anukrama??/s) are conceptually animate. That is the reperformed > speech act of a figure of memory, who could be a legendary human, god, > or even a river. > Figures like Atri and the "Atris" that followed him. Whatever their > vision-experience was (/dh?/) it was wrought into the form of a poem, > frozen in verbal amber, and thus the oral tradition is preserving not > just the words of legendary figures but their perspective, breath, > mind, etc. (the components of the self in the later Vedic tradition > that frequently enter and exit the figure of Praj?pati). In the > Rigveda itself, we see /satyam uktam, /but I don't think it's until > the Khil?ni that we get /s?ktam vacas /with the explicit noun the > adjective modifies before its history of adjective?substantivization > takes its course. It is not just "well" said, I think but "truly" > said. The re-performance of something imagined to have been an > original first performance once upon a time. When Atri found the Sun, > or when Vasi??ha aided Sud?s, when Indra turned the Maruts into his > entourage, when Vi?v?mitra cajoled the rivers Vip?? and ?utudr?, etc. > In other words a kind if impersonation and re-enactment is, I will > argue in my book /the Invisible Mask /baked into much of the Rigvedic > s?ktas (of the inner ma??alas at least) as an exponent of a particular > kind of textuality. In an oral tradition you will never encounter a > "dead text" like a book that merely contains information, you will > encounter a person, a father, whose voice?is laden with the voices of > an unbroken succession of fathers, going back to a legendary > forerunner. An animate voice, an active intelligence, who embodies > generations of poetic intelligences going back to an imagined First > (most of my thoughts on all of this are in my book ms /The Invisible > Mask/). > > Compare this to the earliest text we think of as a s?tra, the > /Baudh?yana?rautas?tra, /is not like this at all. They are stage > directions that only refer to the actor's script when necessary. > Personal identity is extremely understated, the assumed subject of the > verb is often just whoever is the acting /adhvaryu/ or if not him then > it's just the /yajam?na/ but these are offices not individuals. Their > textuality, their performativity, is very different than that of the > /s?kta/. > > So, I suppose it's worth asking: which of the two is the > /buddhavacanam/?more like? Is reciting the /buddhavacanam/?a kind of > impersonation? Speak like the Buddha to be more like the Buddha? Does > it have this kind of re-enactive/impersonation component in the way I > think the mantra-period /yaj?a/ did? Or are they more like stage > directions? Or perhaps they are nothing like either of these and > wholly dissimilar to Vedic textualities. Not knowing the Buddhist > materials nearly as well as the other contributors to this thread, I > am extremely curious about your thoughts on this. > > Best, > Caley > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh > 1.1.2:?ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; > ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for > knitting the flowers that are the Upani?adic passages; for, the > Upani?adic passages themselves are examined through the s?tras." > > One benefit of reading /sutta/?as /s?kta/?is that it is no longer > mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist > having so much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all > associate /s?tra/?with being short and having few worlds and > syllables. > > Best wishes > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Lector in Sanskrit > > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY > on behalf of Lubin, > Tim > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM > *To:* Rupert Gethin >; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > But this is not really much to support /sutta/ < /s?kta/, since > the regular P?li form parallel to /s?kta/ includes the glide -v-, > as Skt /ukta/ ~ P?li /vutta/ and similarly in other MIA languages, > which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root > /*vac/- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a > labial (?104). > > > And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical > ?etymologies? (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic > /br?hma?a-/prose), which are alternative or mutually > complementary.? The last of the six offered here relies on the > ?thread? meaning, explained using _two_ distinct analogies which, > if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal meaning > of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather > to a stronger awareness of /sutta/ as connected with threads: > > /? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti > eva? etam pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na > vikir?yanti na viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?./ > > The trans. of the whole passage: > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore /Sutta/ is its name. > > For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. > > It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has > > been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their > > fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that > > it well protects and guards the Good. *It is a measure to the* > > *wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters*. And *just as flowers* > > *strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good* > > *strung together by it does not peris*h. Hence it has been said, > > to facilitate the study of the word-definition: > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore /Sutta/ is its name. > > (tr. Maung Tin, /The Expositor/, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 > > Best, > Tim > > _________________________________________ > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > > > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > *From: *INDOLOGY > on behalf of > INDOLOGY > > *Reply-To: *Rupert Gethin > > *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM > *To: *INDOLOGY > > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition > offers no support for a derivation of /sutta/ from /s?kta/. (In > der?Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? /sutta/- > eigentlich /s?kta/-?entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die > lange?Er?rterung??zu?sutta-,?As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit > zeigt.) > > However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) > quotes and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking > /sutta;/?the second of these is precisely /s?kta/ (Pali /suvutta/): > > "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (/suvutta/), as productive, > as?yielding, > > as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is?called > /sutta/.? > > > "For a /sutta/?reveals?various benefits for ourselves and others. > And in it these benefits are spoken well?(/suvutta/) since they > are spoken in?accordance with the disposition of those who are to > be trained ?" > > atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | > sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || > > ta? hi?attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha > atth??veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... > > Rupert Gethin > > -- > > *Rupert Gethin* > > Professor of Buddhist Studies > University of Bristol > > Department of Religion and Theology > > 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > > > On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim > wrote: > > Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly > cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation > from/s?kta/is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the > term in Buddhaghosa?s/Atthas?lin?/19.15?26 as evidence against it. > > Tim Lubin > > *From:*INDOLOGY > on behalf of > INDOLOGY > > *Reply-To:*Andrew Ollett > > *Date:*Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM > *To:*Jim Ryan > > *Cc:*INDOLOGY > > *Subject:*Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Dear Jim, > > See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: > > https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up > > > K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose > Pollock got it from Gombrich. > > Andrew > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in/The Language of the Gods in the World > of Men/(p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? > does not derive from the Sanskrit/s?tra,/?but rather > from/s?kta./Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show > regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in > Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of > one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on > Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting > detail, when I first read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > > California Institute of Integral Studies > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nmcgover at fandm.edu Tue May 11 14:58:49 2021 From: nmcgover at fandm.edu (Nathan McGovern) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 09:58:49 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <92f2567b-a8b3-1216-2286-a1381314529b@fandm.edu> Also, I forgot to mention that the distinction between sutta and suttanta was recognized by Eugene Burnouf all the way back in something like the 1840s, not to mention the Buddhist tradition for thousands of years before that, so I think it is time we put this problem to rest. Nathan On 5/11/2021 9:26 AM, Caley Smith via INDOLOGY wrote: > Thanks all for a very interesting discussion. > > I was wondering Nathan, if you might say a bit more about your > critique of the s?kta hypothesis, or perhaps send me your article. > I kind of favor it myself, but I want to know your take as your book > has been so influential on my more > recent thinking of the web of LateVedic/Renouncer/Householder webs of > conceptual reinvention. > > ?The reason I was partial to the /s?kta /model, is I think Rigvedic > /s?kta/s (from the perspective of the anthologizers of the text and > maintainers of the > /anukrama??/s) are conceptually animate. That is the reperformed > speech act of a figure of memory, who could be a legendary human, god, > or even a river. > Figures like Atri and the "Atris" that followed him. Whatever their > vision-experience was (/dh?/) it was wrought into the form of a poem, > frozen in verbal amber, and thus the oral tradition is preserving not > just the words of legendary figures but their perspective, breath, > mind, etc. (the components of the self in the later Vedic tradition > that frequently enter and exit the figure of Praj?pati). In the > Rigveda itself, we see /satyam uktam, /but I don't think it's until > the Khil?ni that we get /s?ktam vacas /with the explicit noun the > adjective modifies before its history of adjective?substantivization > takes its course. It is not just "well" said, I think but "truly" > said. The re-performance of something imagined to have been an > original first performance once upon a time. When Atri found the Sun, > or when Vasi??ha aided Sud?s, when Indra turned the Maruts into his > entourage, when Vi?v?mitra cajoled the rivers Vip?? and ?utudr?, etc. > In other words a kind if impersonation and re-enactment is, I will > argue in my book /the Invisible Mask /baked into much of the Rigvedic > s?ktas (of the inner ma??alas at least) as an exponent of a particular > kind of textuality. In an oral tradition you will never encounter a > "dead text" like a book that merely contains information, you will > encounter a person, a father, whose voice?is laden with the voices of > an unbroken succession of fathers, going back to a legendary > forerunner. An animate voice, an active intelligence, who embodies > generations of poetic intelligences going back to an imagined First > (most of my thoughts on all of this are in my book ms /The Invisible > Mask/). > > Compare this to the earliest text we think of as a s?tra, the > /Baudh?yana?rautas?tra, /is not like this at all. They are stage > directions that only refer to the actor's script when necessary. > Personal identity is extremely understated, the assumed subject of the > verb is often just whoever is the acting /adhvaryu/ or if not him then > it's just the /yajam?na/ but these are offices not individuals. Their > textuality, their performativity, is very different than that of the > /s?kta/. > > So, I suppose it's worth asking: which of the two is the > /buddhavacanam/?more like? Is reciting the /buddhavacanam/?a kind of > impersonation? Speak like the Buddha to be more like the Buddha? Does > it have this kind of re-enactive/impersonation component in the way I > think the mantra-period /yaj?a/ did? Or are they more like stage > directions? Or perhaps they are nothing like either of these and > wholly dissimilar to Vedic textualities. Not knowing the Buddhist > materials nearly as well as the other contributors to this thread, I > am extremely curious about your thoughts on this. > > Best, > Caley > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh > 1.1.2:?ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; > ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for > knitting the flowers that are the Upani?adic passages; for, the > Upani?adic passages themselves are examined through the s?tras." > > One benefit of reading /sutta/?as /s?kta/?is that it is no longer > mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist > having so much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all > associate /s?tra/?with being short and having few worlds and > syllables. > > Best wishes > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > > Lector in Sanskrit > > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY > on behalf of Lubin, > Tim > > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM > *To:* Rupert Gethin >; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > > *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > But this is not really much to support /sutta/ < /s?kta/, since > the regular P?li form parallel to /s?kta/ includes the glide -v-, > as Skt /ukta/ ~ P?li /vutta/ and similarly in other MIA languages, > which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root > /*vac/- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a > labial (?104). > > > And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical > ?etymologies? (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic > /br?hma?a-/prose), which are alternative or mutually > complementary.? The last of the six offered here relies on the > ?thread? meaning, explained using _two_ distinct analogies which, > if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal meaning > of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather > to a stronger awareness of /sutta/ as connected with threads: > > /? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti > eva? etam pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na > vikir?yanti na viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?./ > > The trans. of the whole passage: > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore /Sutta/ is its name. > > For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. > > It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has > > been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their > > fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that > > it well protects and guards the Good. *It is a measure to the* > > *wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters*. And *just as flowers* > > *strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good* > > *strung together by it does not peris*h. Hence it has been said, > > to facilitate the study of the word-definition: > > This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, > > Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise > > A plumb-line; therefore /Sutta/ is its name. > > (tr. Maung Tin, /The Expositor/, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 > > Best, > Tim > > _________________________________________ > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > > > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > *From: *INDOLOGY > on behalf of > INDOLOGY > > *Reply-To: *Rupert Gethin > > *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM > *To: *INDOLOGY > > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition > offers no support for a derivation of /sutta/ from /s?kta/. (In > der?Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? /sutta/- > eigentlich /s?kta/-?entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die > lange?Er?rterung??zu?sutta-,?As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit > zeigt.) > > However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) > quotes and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking > /sutta;/?the second of these is precisely /s?kta/ (Pali /suvutta/): > > "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (/suvutta/), as productive, > as?yielding, > > as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is?called > /sutta/.? > > > "For a /sutta/?reveals?various benefits for ourselves and others. > And in it these benefits are spoken well?(/suvutta/) since they > are spoken in?accordance with the disposition of those who are to > be trained ?" > > atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | > sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || > > ta? hi?attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha > atth??veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... > > Rupert Gethin > > -- > > *Rupert Gethin* > > Professor of Buddhist Studies > University of Bristol > > Department of Religion and Theology > > 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > > > On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim > wrote: > > Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly > cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation > from/s?kta/is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the > term in Buddhaghosa?s/Atthas?lin?/19.15?26 as evidence against it. > > Tim Lubin > > *From:*INDOLOGY > on behalf of > INDOLOGY > > *Reply-To:*Andrew Ollett > > *Date:*Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM > *To:*Jim Ryan > > *Cc:*INDOLOGY > > *Subject:*Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Dear Jim, > > See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: > > https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up > > > K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose > Pollock got it from Gombrich. > > Andrew > > On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > > wrote: > > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in/The Language of the Gods in the World > of Men/(p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? > does not derive from the Sanskrit/s?tra,/?but rather > from/s?kta./Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show > regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in > Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of > one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on > Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting > detail, when I first read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > > California Institute of Integral Studies > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lusthaus at g.harvard.edu Tue May 11 15:07:00 2021 From: lusthaus at g.harvard.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 11:07:00 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, To address Madhav?s question: Sutta is used in Pali suttas to mean the discourses of the Buddha. For instance: Take a mendicant who says: Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu eva? vadeyya: ?Reverend, I have heard and learned this in the presence of the Buddha: ?sammukh? meta?, ?vuso, bhagavato suta? sammukh? pa?iggahita?? this is the teaching, this is the training, this is the Teacher?s instruction.? aya? dhammo, aya? vinayo, ida? satthus?sanan?ti. You should neither approve nor dismiss that mendicant?s statement. Tassa, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno bh?sita? neva abhinanditabba? nappa?ikkositabba?. Instead, you should carefully memorize those words and phrases, then check if they?re included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic training. Anabhinanditv? appa?ikkositv? t?ni padabya?jan?ni s?dhuka? uggahetv? sutte ot?retabb?ni, vinaye sandassetabb?ni. If they?re not included in the discourses and found in the texts on monastic training, you should draw the conclusion: T?ni ce sutte ot?riyam?n?ni vinaye sandassiyam?n?ni na ceva sutte otaranti na vinaye sandissanti, ni??hamettha gantabba?: ?Clearly this is not the word of the Blessed One, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha. ?addh? ida? na ceva tassa bhagavato vacana? arahato samm?sambuddhassa; It has been incorrectly memorized by that mendicant.? imassa ca bhikkhuno duggahitan?ti. And so you should reject it. Iti heta?, bhikkhave, cha??eyy?tha. (and so on) A?guttara Nik?ya 4, 18. Sa?cetaniyavagga, 180. Mah?padesasutta (with Bhikkhu Sujato?s tr.) https://suttacentral.net/an4.180/en/sujato == Sutta occurs frequently meaning ?thread.? paripakka? v? kamma? phussa phussa byant?kariss?m?ti heva? natthi do?amite sukhadukkhe pariyantakate sa?s?re, natthi h?yanava??hane, natthi ukka?s?vaka?se. Seyyath?pi n?ma suttagu?e khitte nibbe?hiyam?nameva paleti; evameva b?le ca pa??ite ca nibbe?hiyam?n? sukhadukkha? palent???ti? Pleasure and pain are allotted. Transmigration lasts only for a limited period, so there?s no increase or decrease, no getting better or worse. It?s like how, when you toss a ball of string, it rolls away unraveling. In the same way, after transmigrating the foolish and the astute will make an end of suffering??? from Sa?yutta Nik?ya 24, 1. Sot?pattivagga (Stream-Entry). 8. Mah?di??hisutta (The Extensive View ), with Bhikkhu Sujato?s translation https://suttacentral.net/sn24.8/en/sujato ? Seyyath?pi n?ma suttagu?e khitte nibbe?hiyam?nameva paleti; evameva b?le ca pa??ite ca sandh?vitv? sa?saritv? dukkhassanta? karissant??ti. It?s like how, when you toss a ball of string, it rolls away unraveling. In the same way, after transmigrating the foolish and the astute will make an end of suffering.? From Majjhima Nik?ya 76, Sandakasutta (with Bh. Sujato?s tr.) https://suttacentral.net/mn76/en/sujato ? Do?amite sukhadukkhe pariyantakate sa?s?re, natthi h?yanava??hane, natthi ukka?s?vaka?se. Seyyath?pi n?ma suttagu?e khitte nibbe?hiyam?nameva paleti; evameva b?le ca pa??ite ca sandh?vitv? sa?saritv? dukkhassanta? karissant??ti. Pleasure and pain are allotted. Transmigration lasts only for a limited period, so there?s no increase or decrease, no getting better or worse. It?s like how, when you toss a ball of string, it rolls away unraveling. In the same way, after transmigrating the foolish and the astute will make an end of suffering.? from D?gha Nik?ya 2, S?ma??aphalasutta (with Bh. Sujato?s tr.) https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato == On one occasion when the monks from the group of six were making robes, they asked for a large amount of thread. Tena kho pana samayena chabbaggiy? bhikkh? c?varak?rasamaye bahu? sutta? vi???pesu?. Yet even when their robes had been sewn, there was much thread left over. Katepi c?vare bahu? sutta? avasi??ha? hoti. They said, Atha kho chabbaggiy?na? bhikkh?na? etadahosi? ?Well, let?s ask for more thread and have weavers weave us robe-cloth.? ?handa maya?, ?vuso, a??ampi sutta? vi???petv? tantav?yehi c?vara? v?y?pem??ti. Atha kho chabbaggiy? bhikkh? a??ampi sutta? vi???petv? tantav?yehi c?vara? v?y?pesu?. Yet even when the robe-cloth had been woven, there was much thread left over. V?tepi c?vare bahu? sutta? avasi??ha? hoti. A second time they asked for more thread and had weavers weave them robe-cloth. Dutiyampi kho chabbaggiy? bhikkh? a??ampi sutta? vi???petv? tantav?yehi c?vara? v?y?pesu?. Once again there was much thread left over. V?tepi c?vare bahu? sutta? avasi??ha? hoti. A third time they asked for more thread and had weavers weave them robe-cloth. Tatiyampi kho chabbaggiy? bhikkh? a??ampi sutta? vi???petv? tantav?yehi c?vara? v?y?pesu?. (etc.) Therav?da Vinaya: Suttavi??atti Pli Tv Bu Vb NP 26 (with Bhikkhu Brahmali?s tr.) https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-np26/en/brahmali == Sutta by another etymology (cf. supati) means ?sleep,? as in ?How many sleep while others wake? ?Kati j?garata? sutt?, How many wake among the sleeping? kati suttesu j?gar?; Sa?yutta Nik?ya 1, 1. Na?avagga, 6. J?garasutta (with Bh. Sujato?s tr.) https://suttacentral.net/sn1.6/en/sujato Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Tue May 11 15:12:03 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:12:03 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <6E36668F-FB96-4343-8753-C88A10BDCDF2@wlu.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <875yzp1h4l.fsf@lmu.de> <6E36668F-FB96-4343-8753-C88A10BDCDF2@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <2B239AB2-CE1C-4254-AAE8-BDBF70A65C60@wlu.edu> I mistyped the first part of my last comment. I know there are plenty of attestations of sutta = literal ?thread?. I meant to ask, re Stefan?s suggestion: ? but is there any unambiguous attestation of such a doublet sutta with the meaning s?kta/suvutta, e.g., in a context not referring to scripture? TL From: INDOLOGY on behalf of "Lubin, Tim" Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:55 AM To: Stefan Baums , INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Well said, Stefan ;-) but is there any unambiguous attestation of such a doublet sutta with the meaning thread, e.g., not referring to scripture? Re Aleksandar?s remark: One benefit of reading sutta as s?kta is that it is no longer mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate s?tra with being short and having few worlds and syllables. If we recall that the oldest ritual s?tra in Sanskrit, Baudh?yana ?rautas?tra, while showing other structural features of Brahmanical s?tras, does not show the concision of expression that becomes so characteristic, so that feature may not be intrinsic to the format, but rather a development with Brahmanical circles, perhaps influenced by the P??inian model. TL From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Stefan Baums Date: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 10:26 AM To: INDOLOGY Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Tim, But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v- yes, in the intentionally transparent formation used in the nibbacana you cite, but maybe that does not on its own exclude an opaque doublet sutta < s?kta. On the other hand, in the first century CE in G?ndh?r? (the only MIA language that in principle preserved the contrast between OIA kt and tr), the word is consistently spelled sutra- and always means ?canonical Buddhist text? (for some value of ?canonical?), and in some third/fourth-century secular documents it refers to literal thread or rope: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fdictionary%2Fsutra&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933199834%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=fwU%2B2QJp3CEEvUj1Dg3bskEMOidsq49eWypQ8F2CIik%3D&reserved=0 There are no discussions about the meaning or etymology of the word in what we have of that tradition, but it contrasts with nide?a- ?explanation? in a set of commentaries: https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0004&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933199834%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qfbGrQ06IXGr97CbEH%2FKhfWVRAiz4pU%2FZ7pktKOJuqE%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0009&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=8lsbkkaut1wM9yolruiQqudcok2aM8TVGCR3TOGxAdk%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0011&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=gAP0rO61htQg0TNoRhNRh%2Fs3RSwptumtWp9chJqlPAM%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0015&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=pEBpC23YbFAjddmfCTKuFpBjroOXUtjz2bTDtGQNklw%3D&reserved=0 https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgandhari.org%2Fcorpus%2Fckm0020&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=Uq1PKo51kaFSUvC81ftrA4o3bVpFuk03sUTdfzZupgw%3D&reserved=0 Neither the Pali nor the G?ndh?r? evidence rules out reinterpretations in the first four hundred years of the Buddhist tradition, of course, and Buddhaghosa?s passage may preserve an echo. All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cf14c399ccd6e4270c62308d91488c4dd%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C1%7C637563399933209830%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=LLkknl0%2Brrc77KbJI0t1MglObYJoNhVWCeyKS6O6UpE%3D&reserved=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Tue May 11 15:22:27 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:22:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> , <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Dear Nathan, Thank you for your reply, which makes sense to me. Interestingly, on the B?had-?ra?yaka Upani?ad mention of s?tras as kinds of texts (2.4.10), ?a?kara comments: s?tr??i vastusa?graha-v?ky?ni vede, yath? ?tmetyevop?s?ta ity?d?ni. This suggests something very similar to what you describe. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Nathan McGovern Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 10:56 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Caley (but also Aleksandar and Madhav), The problem posed by the markedly non-pithy discursive Pali "suttas" is actually a pseudo-problem. Properly speaking, the Pali discourses are called suttantas (sUtrAnta), and only sutta for short, which implies that they elaborate upon or complete in some way something different, called suttas. The word sutta by itself is used within Pali discourses in particular cases, most notably in various lists of angas, which have been discussed by Lamotte, von Hinueber, and others. These angas probably referred to "genres" so to speak of early Buddhist literature. Sometimes scholars have assumed that the sutta-anga just refers to the suttantas, ie, the discourses as they come down to us, but this is almost certainly incorrect. I argue in the JIABS paper that I already cited that the word sutta referred to the pithy formulations of dhamma that served as oral formulas for use in performing the larger discursive suttantas. Best, Nathan On 5/11/2021 9:26 AM, Caley Smith via INDOLOGY wrote: Thanks all for a very interesting discussion. I was wondering Nathan, if you might say a bit more about your critique of the s?kta hypothesis, or perhaps send me your article. I kind of favor it myself, but I want to know your take as your book has been so influential on my more recent thinking of the web of LateVedic/Renouncer/Householder webs of conceptual reinvention. The reason I was partial to the s?kta model, is I think Rigvedic s?ktas (from the perspective of the anthologizers of the text and maintainers of the anukrama??s) are conceptually animate. That is the reperformed speech act of a figure of memory, who could be a legendary human, god, or even a river. Figures like Atri and the "Atris" that followed him. Whatever their vision-experience was (dh?) it was wrought into the form of a poem, frozen in verbal amber, and thus the oral tradition is preserving not just the words of legendary figures but their perspective, breath, mind, etc. (the components of the self in the later Vedic tradition that frequently enter and exit the figure of Praj?pati). In the Rigveda itself, we see satyam uktam, but I don't think it's until the Khil?ni that we get s?ktam vacas with the explicit noun the adjective modifies before its history of adjective substantivization takes its course. It is not just "well" said, I think but "truly" said. The re-performance of something imagined to have been an original first performance once upon a time. When Atri found the Sun, or when Vasi??ha aided Sud?s, when Indra turned the Maruts into his entourage, when Vi?v?mitra cajoled the rivers Vip?? and ?utudr?, etc. In other words a kind if impersonation and re-enactment is, I will argue in my book the Invisible Mask baked into much of the Rigvedic s?ktas (of the inner ma??alas at least) as an exponent of a particular kind of textuality. In an oral tradition you will never encounter a "dead text" like a book that merely contains information, you will encounter a person, a father, whose voice is laden with the voices of an unbroken succession of fathers, going back to a legendary forerunner. An animate voice, an active intelligence, who embodies generations of poetic intelligences going back to an imagined First (most of my thoughts on all of this are in my book ms The Invisible Mask). Compare this to the earliest text we think of as a s?tra, the Baudh?yana?rautas?tra, is not like this at all. They are stage directions that only refer to the actor's script when necessary. Personal identity is extremely understated, the assumed subject of the verb is often just whoever is the acting adhvaryu or if not him then it's just the yajam?na but these are offices not individuals. Their textuality, their performativity, is very different than that of the s?kta. So, I suppose it's worth asking: which of the two is the buddhavacanam more like? Is reciting the buddhavacanam a kind of impersonation? Speak like the Buddha to be more like the Buddha? Does it have this kind of re-enactive/impersonation component in the way I think the mantra-period yaj?a did? Or are they more like stage directions? Or perhaps they are nothing like either of these and wholly dissimilar to Vedic textualities. Not knowing the Buddhist materials nearly as well as the other contributors to this thread, I am extremely curious about your thoughts on this. Best, Caley On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY > wrote: Interestingly ?a?kara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh 1.1.2: ved?nta-v?kya-kusuma-grathan?rthatv?t s?tr???m; ved?nta-v?ky?ni hi s?trair ud?h?tya vic?ryante; "The s?tras ae for knitting the flowers that are the Upani?adic passages; for, the Upani?adic passages themselves are examined through the s?tras." One benefit of reading sutta as s?kta is that it is no longer mysterious why Brahmanical s?tras are so economical and Buddhist having so much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate s?tra with being short and having few worlds and syllables. Best wishes Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of Lubin, Tim > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM To: Rupert Gethin >; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v-, as Skt ukta ~ P?li vutta and similarly in other MIA languages, which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root *vac- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical ?etymologies? (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic br?hma?a-prose), which are alternative or mutually complementary. The last of the six offered here relies on the ?thread? meaning, explained using two distinct analogies which, if anything about the author?s sense of the basic literal meaning of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather to a stronger awareness of sutta as connected with threads: ? suttasabh?ga? c?eta? yath? hi tacchak?na? sutta? pam??a? hoti eva? etam pi vi???na?, yath? ca suttena sa?gah?t?ni pupph?ni na vikir?yanti na viddha?siyanti evam etena sa?gah?t? atth?. The trans. of the whole passage: This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise A plumb-line; therefore Sutta is its name. For it shows what is good for the good of self and others. It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that it well protects and guards the Good. It is a measure to the wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters. And just as flowers strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good strung together by it does not perish. Hence it has been said, to facilitate the study of the word-definition: This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies, Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise A plumb-line; therefore Sutta is its name. (tr. Maung Tin, The Expositor, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24 Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Rupert Gethin > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM To: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Oskar von Hin?ber suggests here that the Therav?da tradition offers no support for a derivation of sutta from s?kta. (In der Therav?da-?berlieferung findet die Annahme, da? sutta- eigentlich s?kta- entspr?che, nirgends eine St?tze, wie die lange Er?rterung zu sutta-, As 19, 15?26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.) However, the Atthas?lini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking sutta; the second of these is precisely s?kta (Pali suvutta): "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (suvutta), as productive, as yielding, as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called sutta.? "For a sutta reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in it these benefits are spoken well (suvutta) since they are spoken in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained ?" atth?na? s?canato suvuttato savanato ?tha s?danato | sutt??? suttasabh?gato ca suttan ti akkh?ta? || ta? hi attatthaparatth?dibhede atthe s?ceti. suvutt? c? ettha atth? veneyyajjh?say?nulomena vuttatt? ... Rupert Gethin -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road ? Bristol BS8 1TB ? UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim > wrote: Oskar von Hin?ber (1994: ?Die Neun A?gas,? p. 132) approvingly cites Mayrhofer?s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from s?kta is ?entbehrlich?; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa?s Atthas?lin? 19.15?26 as evidence against it. Tim Lubin From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: Andrew Ollett > Date: Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM To: Jim Ryan > Cc: INDOLOGY > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear Jim, See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4: https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got it from Gombrich. Andrew On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James Ryan Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) California Institute of Integral Studies _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gleb.sharygin at gmail.com Tue May 11 15:49:05 2021 From: gleb.sharygin at gmail.com (Gleb Sharygin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 17:49:05 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Prof. Ryan, Esteemed colleagues mostly are pointing out here that such derivation is not likely or necessary, but it does not change the fact that the early Buddhist *suttas *are wordy dialogues (or monologues) that narrate the matters in a rather lively manner, but the Brahmanic *s?tras *are terse and extremely succinct coded messages, which do resemble "threads" (Sanskrit " *s?tra*") as such. The contrast to me is very striking. How can we explain it? For instance, assuming that *s?tra *and *sutta *are different words (and "literary genres"). Kind regards, Gleb Sharygin PhD Candidate Institute for Indology and Tibetology LMU Munich https://www.academia.edu/19790273/Misunderstood_origins_how_Buddhism_fooled_modern_scholarship_-_and_itself ??, 10 ??? 2021 ?. ? 21:22, Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Dear all, > > Sheldon Pollock in *The Language of the Gods in the World of Men *(p. 52) > suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit > *s?tra,* but rather from *s?kta. *Sanskrit double consonant clusters do > show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, > where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m > interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not > noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. > > James Ryan > Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus) > California Institute of Integral Studies > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Tue May 11 15:49:52 2021 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 11:49:52 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <2B239AB2-CE1C-4254-AAE8-BDBF70A65C60@wlu.edu> (Tim Lubin's message of "Tue, 11 May 2021 15:12:03 +0000") References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <875yzp1h4l.fsf@lmu.de> <6E36668F-FB96-4343-8753-C88A10BDCDF2@wlu.edu> <2B239AB2-CE1C-4254-AAE8-BDBF70A65C60@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <87im3pz2vz.fsf@lmu.de> Dear Tim, > is there any unambiguous attestation of such a doublet sutta > with the meaning s?kta/suvutta, e.g., in a context not referring > to scripture? I would not necessarily expect to find it, since the nature of linguistic doublets is semantic specialization (or division of an originally broader semantic range). A classic example from English is wine (the drink) vs. vine (the plant), both borrowed from Latin vinum at different times. In our (hypothetical) example, OIA s?kta would then early on have become sutta ?canonical text? and have acquired an opaque specialized meaning, and su-vutta ?well-spoken? would be a later, clarifying formation (in parallel with replacement by subh?sita), since due to the phonetic change sutta could no longer convey that meaning clearly. But again, there is no positive evidence for P sutta < OIA s?kta. Some of us (myself included) find it tempting semantically and for the historical connection it would provide with Vedic terminology, but Philipp?s first-century-CE example for a meaning ?[corpus of authoritative] knowledge? from the Carakasa?hit? suggests that the meaning ?canonical Buddhist text? (or similar) could be derived in purely semantic terms from OIA s?tra (taken as ?guideline? rather than ???amoli?s ?thread of argument?). All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From wujastyk at gmail.com Tue May 11 16:11:42 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 10:11:42 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta could be * From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Tue May 11 16:46:26 2021 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 16:46:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of sutta as suvutta: But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v-, as Skt ukta ~ P?li vutta and similarly in other MIA languages, which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root *vac- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that Jaina ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta And Turner?s A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages includes Prakrit sutta under s?kta: 13545 s?kt? ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, ukt? -- ] Pk. sutta -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. s?ta ? speaking properly ?. https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 Rupert -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TB, UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue May 11 17:12:53 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 19:12:53 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, the question of the etymology of the Pali term sutta is interesting in itself. But - can its resolution broaden our understanding of the institution of slavery in ancient India? Would it help us to better understand the ideological bases of genocidal practices directed against tribal communities? The phenomenon of untouchability? Best, Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> wt., 11 maj 2021 o 18:47 Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? > > Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of > *sutta* as *suvutta*: > > But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the > regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt > *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all > seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel > ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). > > > But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that Jaina > ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta > > And Turner?s* A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages * > includes Prakrit *sutta* under *s?kta*: > > 13545 *s?kt?* ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, ukt? > -- ] > Pk. *sutta* -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. *s?ta* ? speaking properly ?. > > https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 > > Rupert > -- > *Rupert Gethin* > Professor of Buddhist Studies > > University of Bristol > Department of Religion and Theology > 3 Woodland Road > Bristol BS8 1TB, UK > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philipp.a.maas at gmail.com Tue May 11 17:23:15 2021 From: philipp.a.maas at gmail.com (Philipp Maas) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 19:23:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: On the topic see also: Konrad Klaus, "Zu den buddhistischen literarischen Fachbegriffen sutta und suttanta." In: From Turfan to Ajanta. Festschrift for Dieter Schlingloff on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday. Ed. by Eli Franco and Monika Zin. 2 vols. Lumbini 2010. Vol.1, p. 519-532, which draws attention to the fact that the ?rautas?tras and other Brahmanical works are not at all concerned with reaching a maximum economy of expression. Best, Philipp __________________________ PD Dr. Philipp A. Maas Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter (Research Associate) Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 11. Mai 2021 um 18:47 Uhr schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info>: > Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? > > Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of > *sutta* as *suvutta*: > > But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the > regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt > *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all > seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel > ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). > > > But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that Jaina > ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta > > And Turner?s* A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages * > includes Prakrit *sutta* under *s?kta*: > > 13545 *s?kt?* ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, ukt? > -- ] > Pk. *sutta* -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. *s?ta* ? speaking properly ?. > > https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 > > Rupert > -- > *Rupert Gethin* > Professor of Buddhist Studies > > University of Bristol > Department of Religion and Theology > 3 Woodland Road > Bristol BS8 1TB, UK > > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From baums at lmu.de Tue May 11 17:25:14 2021 From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 13:25:14 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: (Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY's message of "Tue, 11 May 2021 16:46:26 +0000") References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <87bl9hyyh1.fsf@lmu.de> Dear Rupert, > Turner?s A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages > includes Prakrit sutta under s?kta the Paia-sadda-maha??avo https://archive.org/details/dli.csl.7752/page/n1244/mode/1up has ????? for all of ???????/???????, ?????, ????? and ?????, with a reference ????? ??? and quotation ???????? ???????????? for the third used as a noun (????????, ?????? ????). All best, Stefan -- Stefan Baums, Ph.D. Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Tue May 11 17:38:24 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 17:38:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> , Message-ID: Yet, there is also Asko Parpola's observation (in his papers on the unity of Mimamsa) that sutras become progressively shorter as a feature of reuse practices on the part of later authors. The Srautasutras already involve shortening in principle, by eliminating most of the arthavada passages etc., a transition from the Brahmanas to the later sutra literature. The later a text, the shorter. So, this seems definitional to the enterprise itself. Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Philipp Maas via INDOLOGY Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 1:23 PM To: Rupert Gethin Cc: Indology Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta On the topic see also: Konrad Klaus, "Zu den buddhistischen literarischen Fachbegriffen sutta und suttanta." In: From Turfan to Ajanta. Festschrift for Dieter Schlingloff on the Occasion of his Eightieth Birthday. Ed. by Eli Franco and Monika Zin. 2 vols. Lumbini 2010. Vol.1, p. 519-532, which draws attention to the fact that the ?rautas?tras and other Brahmanical works are not at all concerned with reaching a maximum economy of expression. Best, Philipp __________________________ PD Dr. Philipp A. Maas Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter (Research Associate) Institut f?r Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften Universit?t Leipzig ___________________________ https://spp1448.academia.edu/PhilippMaas Am Di., 11. Mai 2021 um 18:47 Uhr schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY >: Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of sutta as suvutta: But this is not really much to support sutta < s?kta, since the regular P?li form parallel to s?kta includes the glide -v-, as Skt ukta ~ P?li vutta and similarly in other MIA languages, which all seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root *vac- (Pischel ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that Jaina ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta And Turner?s A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages includes Prakrit sutta under s?kta: 13545 s?kt? ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, ukt? -- ] Pk. sutta -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. s?ta ? speaking properly ?. https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 Rupert -- Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TB, UK Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lusthaus at g.harvard.edu Tue May 11 18:14:04 2021 From: lusthaus at g.harvard.edu (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:14:04 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> Dominik, The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three pi?akas (abhidhamma had yet to appear). Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first great reference. Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye sandassetabb?ni. Mp gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, put down or put into,? and otaranti, just below, means ?descend, come down, go into.? My renderings, respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the commentaries unhelpful or misleading. Dan > On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) > > On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta could be * > Best, > Dominik > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Tue May 11 18:45:22 2021 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 13:45:22 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuy?gadv?ra of the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*) Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root ?*s?c *is clever (via something like *s?k-tra-*), but of course ?*s?c *is secondary from ?*s?* (via the noun *s?-c??-*), so maybe it doesn't work. Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the influence of Sanskrit at a later period. Andrew On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus wrote: > Dominik, > > The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to pose > sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three pi?akas > (abhidhamma had yet to appear). > > Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. > > ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One > I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is > the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement > should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, > you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them > in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, when you check > for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] > they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the > discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is not the word > of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been > badly learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. > > ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard > this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the > discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement > should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, > you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them > in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for > them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] > they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the > discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of > the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been > learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first great > reference. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: > T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye sandassetabb?ni. Mp > gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, > this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of > discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other > texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. > Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, put down or > put into,? and otaranti, just below, means ?descend, come down, go into.? > My renderings, respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? > are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of > sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? > > Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the > commentaries unhelpful or misleading. > > Dan > > On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the > singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on > secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) > > On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta > could be * It was represented as a possibility. > > Best, > Dominik > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Tue May 11 19:00:18 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 21:00:18 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: I have long asked myself about the point of doing Indology in its purely philological guise. The Angulimala-sutta conveys the images of violence and offers suggestions for resolving conflicts - irrespective of whether the Pali suffix -sutta is derived from the OIA -su-ukta or -sutra. But, perhaps, this differentiation affects our understanding of the text? Artur Wolny od wirus?w. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> wt., 11 maj 2021 o 19:12 Artur Karp napisa?(a): > Dear colleagues, > the question of the etymology of the Pali term sutta is interesting in > itself. > > But - can its resolution broaden our understanding of the institution of > slavery in ancient India? > Would it help us to better understand the ideological bases of genocidal > practices directed against tribal communities? > The phenomenon of untouchability? > > Best, > > Artur > > > Wolny > od wirus?w. www.avast.com > > <#m_3128617822932058490_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > wt., 11 maj 2021 o 18:47 Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): > >> Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? >> >> Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of >> *sutta* as *suvutta*: >> >> But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the >> regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt >> *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all >> seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel >> ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). >> >> >> But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that >> Jaina ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta >> >> And Turner?s* A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages * >> includes Prakrit *sutta* under *s?kta*: >> >> 13545 *s?kt?* ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, ukt? >> -- ] >> Pk. *sutta* -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. *s?ta* ? speaking properly ?. >> >> https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 >> >> Rupert >> -- >> *Rupert Gethin* >> Professor of Buddhist Studies >> >> University of Bristol >> Department of Religion and Theology >> 3 Woodland Road >> Bristol BS8 1TB, UK >> >> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegoloukota at ucla.edu Tue May 11 19:44:05 2021 From: diegoloukota at ucla.edu (DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:44:05 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: Hello Artur, I see your point, and it resonates with things I have thought. In the period in which I am most interested, the exact original etymon of MIA *sutta* is largely irrelevant?what is crucial is knowing how the term was understood in the period, namely as equivalent to Sanskrit *s?tra*?and therefore I have not intervened in the discussion. I believe in the philological method, and in the absolute need for its technical rigor and intricacy. At the same time, I personally envision philology as a tool, a wonderful tool but a tool after all, that can allow us to enrich and deepen our knowledge of a social, historical, or linguistic past. I understand, though, that other people do treat philology as a goal in itself, and I have no objection to that. However, I am not sure whether this is exactly the case here. In the specific case of the etymology of MIA *sutta*, I would argue that knowing what exactly the practitioners of the ?rama?ic religions viewed as closest to their sacred discourses can indeed tell us about ancient social understandings, affinities, or tensions (did they envision their texts as more akin to the Vedic hymns or to the orthodox ritual manuals?) and about the chronology of those dynamics. I wish, though, that when engaging not only with the general public but with the field itself, we could be more explicit about the social, historical, or linguistic relevance of a given philological problem. What exactly is at stake behind a technical conundrum is not always crystal-clear even to the professional. *namaskaromi*, Diego On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:04 PM Artur Karp wrote: > I have long asked myself about the point of doing Indology in its purely > philological guise. > > The Angulimala-sutta conveys the images of violence and offers suggestions > for resolving conflicts - irrespective of whether the Pali suffix -sutta is > derived from the OIA -su-ukta or -sutra. > > But, perhaps, this differentiation affects our understanding of the text? > > Artur > > > Wolny > od wirus?w. www.avast.com > > <#m_-3357868069995123081_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > wt., 11 maj 2021 o 19:12 Artur Karp napisa?(a): > >> Dear colleagues, >> the question of the etymology of the Pali term sutta is interesting in >> itself. >> >> But - can its resolution broaden our understanding of the institution of >> slavery in ancient India? >> Would it help us to better understand the ideological bases of genocidal >> practices directed against tribal communities? >> The phenomenon of untouchability? >> >> Best, >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-3357868069995123081_m_3128617822932058490_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> wt., 11 maj 2021 o 18:47 Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >> >>> Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? >>> >>> Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of >>> *sutta* as *suvutta*: >>> >>> But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the >>> regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt >>> *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all >>> seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel >>> ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). >>> >>> >>> But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that >>> Jaina ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta >>> >>> And Turner?s* A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages * >>> includes Prakrit *sutta* under *s?kta*: >>> >>> 13545 *s?kt?* ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, >>> ukt? -- ] >>> Pk. *sutta* -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. *s?ta* ? speaking properly ?. >>> >>> https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 >>> >>> Rupert >>> -- >>> *Rupert Gethin* >>> Professor of Buddhist Studies >>> >>> University of Bristol >>> Department of Religion and Theology >>> 3 Woodland Road >>> Bristol BS8 1TB, UK >>> >>> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegoloukota at ucla.edu Tue May 11 19:52:24 2021 From: diegoloukota at ucla.edu (DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE) Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> Message-ID: PS: In all fairness, though, Jim's query was precisely for philological commentary, and so I think that all the discussion so far has been exactly appropriate. This thread will remain as a rich bibliographic survey and a reference point on an admittedly small but interesting problem. On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:44 PM DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE < diegoloukota at ucla.edu> wrote: > > Hello Artur, > > I see your point, and it resonates with things I have thought. In the > period in which I am most interested, the exact original etymon of MIA > *sutta* is largely irrelevant?what is crucial is knowing how the term was > understood in the period, namely as equivalent to Sanskrit *s?tra*?and > therefore I have not intervened in the discussion. I believe in the > philological method, and in the absolute need for its technical rigor and > intricacy. At the same time, I personally envision philology as a tool, a > wonderful tool but a tool after all, that can allow us to enrich and deepen > our knowledge of a social, historical, or linguistic past. I understand, > though, that other people do treat philology as a goal in itself, and I > have no objection to that. > However, I am not sure whether this is exactly the case here. In the > specific case of the etymology of MIA *sutta*, I would argue that knowing > what exactly the practitioners of the ?rama?ic religions viewed as closest > to their sacred discourses can indeed tell us about ancient social > understandings, affinities, or tensions (did they envision their texts as > more akin to the Vedic hymns or to the orthodox ritual manuals?) and about > the chronology of those dynamics. > I wish, though, that when engaging not only with the general public but > with the field itself, we could be more explicit about the social, > historical, or linguistic relevance of a given philological problem. What > exactly is at stake behind a technical conundrum is not always > crystal-clear even to the professional. > > *namaskaromi*, > > Diego > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 2:04 PM Artur Karp wrote: > >> I have long asked myself about the point of doing Indology in its purely >> philological guise. >> >> The Angulimala-sutta conveys the images of violence and offers >> suggestions for resolving conflicts - irrespective of whether the Pali >> suffix -sutta is derived from the OIA -su-ukta or -sutra. >> >> But, perhaps, this differentiation affects our understanding of the text? >> >> Artur >> >> >> Wolny >> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >> >> <#m_-7681000515353254917_m_-3357868069995123081_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >> >> wt., 11 maj 2021 o 19:12 Artur Karp napisa?(a): >> >>> Dear colleagues, >>> the question of the etymology of the Pali term sutta is interesting in >>> itself. >>> >>> But - can its resolution broaden our understanding of the institution of >>> slavery in ancient India? >>> Would it help us to better understand the ideological bases of genocidal >>> practices directed against tribal communities? >>> The phenomenon of untouchability? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Artur >>> >>> >>> Wolny >>> od wirus?w. www.avast.com >>> >>> <#m_-7681000515353254917_m_-3357868069995123081_m_3128617822932058490_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >>> >>> wt., 11 maj 2021 o 18:47 Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> napisa?(a): >>> >>>> Could someone confirm the wider Prakrit evidence? >>>> >>>> Tim commented with reference to the Pali commentarial explanation of >>>> *sutta* as *suvutta*: >>>> >>>> But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *s?kta*, since the >>>> regular P?li form parallel to *s?kta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt >>>> *ukta* ~ P?li *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all >>>> seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel >>>> ?337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (?104). >>>> >>>> >>>> But unless I am misreading something here, Pischel (?337) notes that >>>> Jaina ?aurasen?, ?aurasen? and M?gadh? all have utta < ukta >>>> >>>> And Turner?s* A comparative dictionary of the Indo-Aryan languages * >>>> includes Prakrit *sutta* under *s?kta*: >>>> >>>> 13545 *s?kt?* ? well recited ? RV., ? eloquent ? MatsyaP. [su -- 2, >>>> ukt? -- ] >>>> Pk. *sutta* -- ? handsomely said ?; OG. *s?ta* ? speaking properly ?. >>>> >>>> https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/soas_query.py?page=780 >>>> >>>> Rupert >>>> -- >>>> *Rupert Gethin* >>>> Professor of Buddhist Studies >>>> >>>> University of Bristol >>>> Department of Religion and Theology >>>> 3 Woodland Road >>>> Bristol BS8 1TB, UK >>>> >>>> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Wed May 12 04:56:58 2021 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: 12 May 2021 04:56:58 -0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?The_Buddhist_term_sutta?= Message-ID: <1620794869.S.2886.autosave.drafts.1620795418.3251@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Ryan While referring to a traditional book written in Bengali, by Dr.Biman Chandra Bhattacharya ( first publication 1958), the name of which loosely translates as 'Outlines of Sanskrit literature' , I find , the word "Sutta" in Buddhist literature is an abridged version of the word "Sutra" in Sanskrit, but the implied meaning has some difference in it.In Sanskrit, by "Sutra" we mean a subtle "thread "of discourse by which the subject matter is gradually elaborated, whereas in Buddhist literature "Sutta"means  a discourse in a wider context.Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> Sent: Tue, 11 May 2021 00:51:27 GMT+0530 To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear all, Sheldon Pollock in The Language of the Gods in the World of Men (p. 52) suggests that the Buddhist term ?sutta? does not derive from the Sanskrit s?tra, but rather from s?kta. Sanskrit double consonant clusters do show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit, where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I?m interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock?s suggestion. I had not noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago. James RyanAsian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus)California Institute of Integral Studies _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp Wed May 12 11:47:09 2021 From: yanom at cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (YANO MICHIO) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 11:47:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Benfey's biography In-Reply-To: References: <2edc6f57-0cdf-be02-3077-e496ef9662df@sas.upenn.edu>, Message-ID: Very interesting! When I was in Brown University in 1973, I made friends with Tom Benfey. He said he was a great grand son of Theodor Benfey. Tom was very kind and helped me before I crossed the country from Providence to San Fransisco by a poor old car. Remembering the good old days in the USA, Michio Yano ________________________________ ???: INDOLOGY ? Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY ?????? ????: 2021?5?11? 14:41 ??: Rosane Rocher ; Indology List ; Anett Krause ??: Re: [INDOLOGY] Benfey's biography Excellent news! Thanks so much, Rosanne. Matthew Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Rosane Rocher via INDOLOGY Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 12:20:06 AM To: Indology List ; Anett Krause Subject: [INDOLOGY] Benfey's biography Dear colleagues, I am happy to report that there indeed exists a privately printed biography of Benfey by his daughter, of considerably greater magnitude and import than the introduction in his Kleine Schriften in that it features extensive correspondence. Our colleague Anett Krause has discovered a copy of it in the library of the University of Leipzig. It is now digitized and available. Benfey, Meta: Theodor Benfey. Zum Andenken f?r seine Kinder und Enkel. [Bad Nauheim: Verlag nicht ermittelbar, 1909?], 444 Seiten. Anmerkungen: Diese Biographie besteht zum gr?ssten Teil aus Briefen von Theodor Benfey, Ort und Datierung unter dem Vorwort: Bad Nauheim, 3. Juli 1909. Provenienz: Hertel, Johannes / Stempel. https://digital.ub.uni-leipzig.de/object/viewid/0000032302 Happy reading! Rosane Rocher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Wed May 12 12:36:04 2021 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 07:36:04 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that might be relevant to this discussion: - Paul Dundas (?Somnolent S?tras: Scriptural Commentary in ?vet?mbara Jainism," *Journal of Indian Philosophy* 24: 73?101, 1996) says the following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): - The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon the acceptance of meaning as being superior to word. This can be seen clearly from the standard Jain etymology for the term ?s?tra? which would derive it from the root s?c, ?indicate.? A s?tra ?indicates? many meanings which the teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the sense from the root text in the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a lump of clay. - Mari Jvy?rsj?rvi (?Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,? *Journal of Indian Philosophy *38.2: 133?162, 2010), cites Sa?ghad?sa?s commentary on the *Br?hatkalpa *(p. 138): - Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or s?tra has a double meaning [ 's?tra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it indicates [s?cana] the meaning, or is well-spoken [s?kta]. These are its etymologies: it 'indicates' or it 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.' These are the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. S?tra is like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by meaning, it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that have] double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A needle, even when broken, can be traced by the thread as long as it is threaded. Likewise meaning [is pointed out] by the s?tra. It 'sews together' words and meanings like a thread [sews together] jackets and so on.13 - The name of one of the older texts in the ?v?t?mbara canon, S?yaga?a-, is often rendered as S?trakr?ta-, but the first part doesn't correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word s?tra-. Willem Boll?e suggested that it might come from *s?ca-kr?ta- or *s?ca-gata- (in his glossary to *Studien zum S?yaga?a*, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the Sanskrit word *s?c?*. Andrew On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett wrote: > Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite the > following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuy?gadv?ra of > the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): > > S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): > suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? > pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? > > C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? > p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*) > Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. > Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. > > The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root ?*s?c *is clever (via > something like *s?k-tra-*), but of course ?*s?c *is secondary from ?*s?* (via > the noun *s?-c??-*), so maybe it doesn't work. > > Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic (including > Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the influence of > Sanskrit at a later period. > > Andrew > > > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus > wrote: > >> Dominik, >> >> The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to pose >> sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three pi?akas >> (abhidhamma had yet to appear). >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. >> >> ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One >> I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is >> the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement >> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them >> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, when you check >> for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >> they are not included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the >> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is not the word >> of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been >> badly learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. >> >> ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard >> this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the >> discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement >> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them >> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for >> them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >> they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the >> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of >> the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been >> learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first great >> reference. >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: >> T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye sandassetabb?ni. Mp >> gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, >> this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of >> discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other >> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. >> Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, put down or >> put into,? and otaranti, just below, means ?descend, come down, go into.? >> My renderings, respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? >> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of >> sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? >> >> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the >> commentaries unhelpful or misleading. >> >> Dan >> >> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the >> singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on >> secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) >> >> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta >> could be *> It was represented as a possibility. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stella.sandahl at gmail.com Wed May 12 15:34:27 2021 From: stella.sandahl at gmail.com (Stella Sandahl) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 11:34:27 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: NYT: Hindu Sect Is Accused of Using Forced Labor to Build N.J. Temple References: Message-ID: <180A4914-F709-45F0-83FB-5B81EAB3EEE4@gmail.com> > Begin forwarded message: > > From: 7 powers <7.powers at gmail.com> > Subject: NYT: Hindu Sect Is Accused of Using Forced Labor to Build N.J. Temple > Date: May 11, 2021 at 12:29:45 PM EDT > To: Stella Sandahl > > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/nyregion/nj-hindu-temple-india-baps.html?smid=url-share -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim_ryan at comcast.net Wed May 12 17:42:52 2021 From: jim_ryan at comcast.net (Jim Ryan) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 10:42:52 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Message-ID: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Wed May 12 18:52:29 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Wed, 12 May 2021 18:52:29 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] looking for a pdf Message-ID: <2e89d8797ea34d41bce60c2cd3120877@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear List Members, I am looking for a pdf of the following book: S.N. Kandaswamy, Foreign Notices of Tamil Classics. An Appraisal. Tamil University, Tanjavur. 2010. At the webpage of Exotic India I could have a look at a few pages of the book. The first two chapters are "appraisals" of, in this order, my book K?vya in South India, and Pollock's The Language of the Gods. The author appears to know much about me. He writes that I "used to say before the Sanskrit students that Classical Tamil is superior to Sanskrit. Likewise when he (that is, I) met with Tamil students, he (I) was accustomed to extol Sanskrit Classics." I don't know which students he had this information from: he situaties the Kern Institute at the University of London! I am just curious what more he has to say about me. In the blurp provided by the bookseller a point is made that so far the author had not received a reaction from me. With kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dieter at schlingloff.de Thu May 13 08:52:30 2021 From: dieter at schlingloff.de (Dieter Schlingloff) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 10:52:30 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <5f6b0267-c603-eab6-9cc5-6bcca3ce6bf5@schlingloff.de> Dear all, in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, /Zur Interpretation des Pratimoksasutra/, p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that the Buddhist Pratimoksa/sutra/ (in its oldest form) is the earliest? Buddhist text at all. This text is a real /thread/, a guide to korrekt behaviour for Buddhist monks. From this guide book, the term was taken over to the following texts concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: > Hi everyone, > > I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that > might be relevant to this discussion: > > * Paul Dundas (?Somnolent S?tras: Scriptural Commentary in > ?vet?mbara Jainism," /Journal of Indian Philosophy/?24: 73?101, > 1996) says the following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): > o The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon > it,?of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon > the acceptance?of meaning as being superior to word.? This can > be seen clearly from?the standard Jain etymology for the term > ?s?tra? which would derive?it from the root s?c, ?indicate.? A > s?tra ?indicates? many meanings?which the teacher explicates > through commentary, obtaining the sense?from the root text in > the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a?lump of clay. > * Mari Jvy?rsj?rvi (?Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain > Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,? /Journal of Indian > Philosophy /38.2: 133?162, 2010), cites Sa?ghad?sa?s commentary on > the /Br?hatkalpa /(p. 138): > o Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or s?tra has a double > meaning [ 's?tra is?a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it > indicates [s?cana] the meaning, or is?well-spoken > [s?kta].?These are its etymologies: it 'indicates' or it > 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or?'it follows.' These are > the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names.?S?tra > is like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by > meaning, > it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that > have] double?meanings, many meanings are joined together.?A > needle, even when broken, can be traced by the thread as long > as it is?threaded. Likewise meaning [is pointed out] by the > s?tra. It 'sews together'?words and meanings like a thread > [sews together] jackets and so on.13 > * The name of one of the older texts in the ?v?t?mbara canon, > S?yaga?a-, is often rendered as S?trakr?ta-, but the first part > doesn't correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word > s?tra-. Willem Boll?e suggested that it might come from > *s?ca-kr?ta- or *s?ca-gata- (in his glossary to /Studien zum > S?yaga?a/, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the Sanskrit word /s?c?/. > > Andrew > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett > wrote: > > Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just > cite the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" > Anuy?gadv?ra of the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of > Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): > > S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): > ? ? suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? > ? ? pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? > > C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? > p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving /sutta/- from /supta-/) > Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. > Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. > > The idea of taking /suttam/?from the verbal root ?/s?c /is clever > (via something like /s?k-tra-/), but of course ?/s?c /is secondary > from ?/s?/?(via the noun /s?-c??-/), so maybe it doesn't work. > > Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic > (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the > influence of Sanskrit at a later period. > > Andrew > > > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus > > wrote: > > Dominik, > > The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would > appear to pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what > became three pi?akas (abhidhamma had yet to appear). > Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) > this way. > > ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the > Blessed One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: > ?This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the > Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement should neither > be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, > you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then > check for them in the discourses and seek them in the > discipline.{893} If, when you check for them in the discourses > and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are not > included among the discourses and are not to be seen in the > discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is > not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly > Enlightened One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.? > Thus you should discard it. > > ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One > I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the > Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s > teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement should neither be > approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you > should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check > for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. > If, when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in > the discipline, [you find that] they are included among the > discourses and are to be seen in the discipline, you should > draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of the Blessed > One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been > learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first > great reference. > > Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: > T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye > sandassetabb?ni. Mp gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye > here, some improbable. Clearly, this instruction presupposes > that there already existed a body of discourses and a > systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other texts > proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. > Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, > put down or put into,? and otaranti, just below, means > ?descend, come down, go into.? My renderings, respectively, as > ?check for them? and ?are included among? are adapted to the > context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of sandassenti, > ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? > > Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds > the commentaries unhelpful or misleading. > > Dan > >> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY >> > > wrote: >> >> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in >> the singular.? That suggests, to me, a genre rather than >> "texts".? (I'm not on secure ground here;? my Pali grammar is >> a bit rusty.) >> >> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me >> that sutta could be *> wasn't dogmatic about it.? It was represented as a possibility. >> >> Best, >> Dominik >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Thu May 13 09:28:18 2021 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: 13 May 2021 09:28:18 -0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?The_Buddhist_term_sutta?= Message-ID: <1620897778.S.11233.autosave.drafts.1620898098.14947@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Dieter Schlingloff, Is your book anyway available with an English version? Even a PDF copy of those particular pgs 536-551 would be of immense help to me. Alakendu Das Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: Dieter Schlingloff <dieter at schlingloff.de> Sent: Thu, 13 May 2021 14:22:45 GMT+0530 To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta Dear all, in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, Zur Interpretation des Pratimoksasutra, p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that the Buddhist Pratimoksasutra (in its oldest form) is the earliest  Buddhist text at all. This text is a real thread, a guide to korrekt behaviour for Buddhist monks. From this guide book, the term was taken over to the following texts concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com Thu May 13 11:03:28 2021 From: rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com (Rolf Heinrich Koch) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 13:03:28 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <1620897778.S.11233.autosave.drafts.1620898098.14947@webmail.rediffmail.com> References: <1620897778.S.11233.autosave.drafts.1620898098.14947@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <68dd70d4-bd0b-0519-a866-09cc14a8a1da@gmail.com> Here the pdf link of the article in German http://menadoc.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/dmg/periodical/titleinfo/94188 Best Rolf Heinrich Koch Am 13.05.2021 um 11:28 schrieb alakendu das via INDOLOGY: > Dr.Dieter Schlingloff, > > Is your book anyway available with an English version? Even a PDF copy > of those particular pgs 536-551 would be of immense help to me. > > Alakendu Das > > > > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > > > > From: Dieter Schlingloff > Sent: Thu, 13 May 2021 14:22:45 GMT+0530 > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta > > Dear all, > in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, /Zur Interpretation des > Pratimoksasutra/, p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that > the Buddhist Pratimoksa/sutra/ (in its oldest form) is the earliest? > Buddhist text at all. This text is a real /thread/, a guide to korrekt > behaviour for Buddhist monks. From this guide book, the term was taken > over to the following texts concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. > Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. > Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: >> CAANHO17BmPP8s+eBK6mUJet_ND4FYGKwsrjunpfcmSgPXjAoBg at mail.gmail.com"> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that >> might be relevant to this discussion: >> >> * Paul Dundas (?Somnolent S?tras: Scriptural Commentary in >> ?vet?mbara Jainism," /Journal of Indian Philosophy/?24: 73?101, >> 1996) says the following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): >> o The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary >> upon it,?of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated >> upon the acceptance?of meaning as being superior to word.? >> This can be seen clearly from?the standard Jain etymology for >> the term ?s?tra? which would derive?it from the root s?c, >> ?indicate.? A s?tra ?indicates? many meanings?which the >> teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the >> sense?from the root text in the same manner as a potter >> creates shapes from a?lump of clay. >> * Mari Jvy?rsj?rvi (?Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain >> Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,? /Journal of >> Indian Philosophy /38.2: 133?162, 2010), cites Sa?ghad?sa?s >> commentary on the /Br?hatkalpa /(p. 138): >> o Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or s?tra has a double >> meaning [ 's?tra is?a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because >> it indicates [s?cana] the meaning, or is?well-spoken >> [s?kta].?These are its etymologies: it 'indicates' or it >> 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or?'it follows.' These are >> the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names.?S?tra >> is like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" >> by meaning, >> it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that >> have] double?meanings, many meanings are joined together.?A >> needle, even when broken, can be traced by the thread as long >> as it is?threaded. Likewise meaning [is pointed out] by the >> s?tra. It 'sews together'?words and meanings like a thread >> [sews together] jackets and so on.13 >> * The name of one of the older texts in the ?v?t?mbara canon, >> S?yaga?a-, is often rendered as S?trakr?ta-, but the first part >> doesn't correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word >> s?tra-. Willem Boll?e suggested that it might come from >> *s?ca-kr?ta- or *s?ca-gata- (in his glossary to /Studien zum >> S?yaga?a/, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the Sanskrit word /s?c?/. >> >> Andrew >> >> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett >> wrote: >> >> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just >> cite the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" >> Anuy?gadv?ra of the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of >> Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): >> >> S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): >> ? ? suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? >> ? ? pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? >> >> C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? >> p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving /sutta/- from /supta-/) >> Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. >> Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. >> >> The idea of taking /suttam/?from the verbal root ?/s?c /is clever >> (via something like /s?k-tra-/), but of course ?/s?c /is >> secondary from ?/s?/?(via the noun /s?-c??-/), so maybe it >> doesn't work. >> >> Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic >> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under >> the influence of Sanskrit at a later period. >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus >> wrote: >> >> Dominik, >> >> The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would >> appear to pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what >> became three pi?akas (abhidhamma had yet to appear). >> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) >> this way. >> >> ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the >> Blessed One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: >> ?This is the Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the >> Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement should neither >> be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then >> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the >> discipline.{893} If, when you check for them in the >> discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >> they are not included among the discourses and are not to be >> seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: >> ?Surely, this is not the word of the Blessed One, the >> Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been badly >> learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. >> >> ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One >> I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the >> Dhamma; this is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s >> teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement should neither be >> approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, you >> should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then >> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the >> discipline. If, when you check for them in the discourses and >> seek them in the discipline, [you find that] they are >> included among the discourses and are to be seen in the >> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is >> the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly >> Enlightened One. It has been learned well by this bhikkhu.? >> You should remember this first great reference. >> >> Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: >> T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye >> sandassetabb?ni. Mp gives various meanings of sutte and >> vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, this instruction >> presupposes that there already existed a body of discourses >> and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other >> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the >> Buddha. Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make >> descend, put down or put into,? and otaranti, just below, >> means ?descend, come down, go into.? My renderings, >> respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? >> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive >> plural of sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti >> means ?are seen.? >> >> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds >> the commentaries unhelpful or misleading. >> >> Dan >> >>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY >>> wrote: >>> >>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is >>> in the singular.? That suggests, to me, a genre rather than >>> "texts".? (I'm not on secure ground here;? my Pali grammar >>> is a bit rusty.) >>> >>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me >>> that sutta could be *>> wasn't dogmatic about it.? It was represented as a possibility. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> Vj8BMVRlCjgKMgU3UzwJN1I5Um5aIgY0Bm9TdQ==> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu May 13 13:35:41 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 15:35:41 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: <5f6b0267-c603-eab6-9cc5-6bcca3ce6bf5@schlingloff.de> References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> <5f6b0267-c603-eab6-9cc5-6bcca3ce6bf5@schlingloff.de> Message-ID: Dear Professor Schlingloff, Thanks for reminding us of this important textual research, which has significant implications for our lexical understanding of the term sutta. Your conclusion would be in harmony with the indications found in P??ini?s A???dhy?y?, AA 4.3.110 p?r??arya-?il?libhy?? bhik?us?trayo? and 110 karmanda-kr???v?d ini? according to which two groups of ascetics (mendicants) receive a name according to the Brahminical ascetic school to which they belong. In the Sanskritic-Prakritic, widely understandable diglossic vocabulary of the time, still preceding the origination of classical Sanskrit with several centuries, the term s?tra/sutta was apparently used with regard to (sometimes currently lost) texts for teaching, which were within their school a Leitfaden, thread or guide in relation to some larger body of discussions or texts, such as, also, the Br?hma?as and ?ra?yakas in case of the ?rautas?tras. This can never exclude (the development of) other contemporaneous interpretations and understandings of the term sutta : yog?d r??hir bal?yas?... With best regards, Jan Houben On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 10:53, Dieter Schlingloff wrote: > Dear all, > in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, *Zur Interpretation des Pratimoksasutra*, > p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that the Buddhist Pratimoksa > *sutra* (in its oldest form) is the earliest Buddhist text at all. This > text is a real *thread*, a guide to korrekt behaviour for Buddhist monks. > From this guide book, the term was taken over to the following texts > concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. > Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. > Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: > > Hi everyone, > > I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that might be > relevant to this discussion: > > - Paul Dundas (?Somnolent S?tras: Scriptural Commentary in ?vet?mbara > Jainism," *Journal of Indian Philosophy* 24: 73?101, 1996) says the > following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): > - The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon > it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon the > acceptance of meaning as being superior to word. This can be seen clearly > from the standard Jain etymology for the term ?s?tra? which would derive it > from the root s?c, ?indicate.? A s?tra ?indicates? many meanings which the > teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the sense from the root > text in the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a lump of clay. > - Mari Jvy?rsj?rvi (?Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain > Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,? *Journal of Indian > Philosophy *38.2: 133?162, 2010), cites Sa?ghad?sa?s commentary on the *Br?hatkalpa > *(p. 138): > - Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or s?tra has a double > meaning [ 's?tra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it indicates > [s?cana] the meaning, or is well-spoken [s?kta]. These are its etymologies: > it 'indicates' or it 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.' > These are the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. S?tra is > like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by meaning, > it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that have] > double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A needle, even when > broken, can be traced by the thread as long as it is threaded. Likewise > meaning [is pointed out] by the s?tra. It 'sews together' words and > meanings like a thread [sews together] jackets and so on.13 > - The name of one of the older texts in the ?v?t?mbara canon, > S?yaga?a-, is often rendered as S?trakr?ta-, but the first part doesn't > correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word s?tra-. Willem > Boll?e suggested that it might come from *s?ca-kr?ta- or *s?ca-gata- (in > his glossary to *Studien zum S?yaga?a*, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the > Sanskrit word *s?c?*. > > Andrew > > On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett > wrote: > >> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite >> the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuy?gadv?ra >> of the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): >> >> S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): >> suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? >> pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? >> >> C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? >> p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*) >> Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. >> Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. >> >> The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root ?*s?c *is clever (via >> something like *s?k-tra-*), but of course ?*s?c *is secondary from ?*s?* (via >> the noun *s?-c??-*), so maybe it doesn't work. >> >> Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic >> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the >> influence of Sanskrit at a later period. >> >> Andrew >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus >> wrote: >> >>> Dominik, >>> >>> The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to pose >>> sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three pi?akas >>> (abhidhamma had yet to appear). >>> >>> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. >>> >>> ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed >>> One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this >>> is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s >>> statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or >>> rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then >>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, >>> when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, >>> [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to >>> be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is >>> not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened >>> One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. >>> >>> ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard >>> this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the >>> discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement >>> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >>> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them >>> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for >>> them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >>> they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the >>> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of >>> the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been >>> learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first great >>> reference. >>> >>> Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: >>> T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye sandassetabb?ni. Mp >>> gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, >>> this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of >>> discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other >>> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. >>> Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, put down or >>> put into,? and otaranti, just below, means ?descend, come down, go into.? >>> My renderings, respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? >>> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of >>> sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? >>> >>> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the >>> commentaries unhelpful or misleading. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the >>> singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on >>> secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) >>> >>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta >>> could be *>> It was represented as a possibility. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dominik >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu May 13 13:43:22 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 15:43:22 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> <5f6b0267-c603-eab6-9cc5-6bcca3ce6bf5@schlingloff.de> Message-ID: read, of course, AA 4.3.110 p?r??arya-?il?libhy?? bhik?u-na?a-s?trayo? On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 15:35, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Professor Schlingloff, > Thanks for reminding us of this important textual research, which has > significant implications for our lexical understanding of the term sutta. > Your conclusion would be in harmony with the indications found in P??ini?s > A???dhy?y?, > AA 4.3.110 p?r??arya-?il?libhy?? bhik?us?trayo? and 110 karmanda-kr???v?d > ini? > according to which two groups of ascetics (mendicants) receive a name > according to the Brahminical ascetic school to which they belong. > In the Sanskritic-Prakritic, widely understandable diglossic vocabulary of > the time, still preceding the origination of classical Sanskrit with > several centuries, > the term s?tra/sutta was apparently used with regard to (sometimes > currently lost) texts for teaching, which were within their school a > Leitfaden, thread or guide > in relation to some larger body of discussions or texts, such as, also, > the Br?hma?as and ?ra?yakas in case of the ?rautas?tras. > This can never exclude (the development of) other contemporaneous > interpretations and understandings of the term sutta : yog?d r??hir > bal?yas?... > With best regards, > Jan Houben > > On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 10:53, Dieter Schlingloff > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, *Zur Interpretation des Pratimoksasutra*, >> p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that the Buddhist Pratimoksa >> *sutra* (in its oldest form) is the earliest Buddhist text at all. This >> text is a real *thread*, a guide to korrekt behaviour for Buddhist >> monks. From this guide book, the term was taken over to the following texts >> concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. >> Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. >> Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that might >> be relevant to this discussion: >> >> - Paul Dundas (?Somnolent S?tras: Scriptural Commentary in ?vet?mbara >> Jainism," *Journal of Indian Philosophy* 24: 73?101, 1996) says the >> following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): >> - The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon >> it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon the >> acceptance of meaning as being superior to word. This can be seen clearly >> from the standard Jain etymology for the term ?s?tra? which would derive it >> from the root s?c, ?indicate.? A s?tra ?indicates? many meanings which the >> teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the sense from the root >> text in the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a lump of clay. >> - Mari Jvy?rsj?rvi (?Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain >> Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,? *Journal of Indian >> Philosophy *38.2: 133?162, 2010), cites Sa?ghad?sa?s commentary on >> the *Br?hatkalpa *(p. 138): >> - Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or s?tra has a double >> meaning [ 's?tra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it indicates >> [s?cana] the meaning, or is well-spoken [s?kta]. These are its etymologies: >> it 'indicates' or it 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.' >> These are the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. S?tra is >> like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by meaning, >> it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that have] >> double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A needle, even when >> broken, can be traced by the thread as long as it is threaded. Likewise >> meaning [is pointed out] by the s?tra. It 'sews together' words and >> meanings like a thread [sews together] jackets and so on.13 >> - The name of one of the older texts in the ?v?t?mbara canon, >> S?yaga?a-, is often rendered as S?trakr?ta-, but the first part doesn't >> correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word s?tra-. Willem >> Boll?e suggested that it might come from *s?ca-kr?ta- or *s?ca-gata- (in >> his glossary to *Studien zum S?yaga?a*, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the >> Sanskrit word *s?c?*. >> >> Andrew >> >> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett >> wrote: >> >>> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite >>> the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuy?gadv?ra >>> of the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): >>> >>> S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): >>> suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? >>> pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? >>> >>> C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? >>> p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*) >>> Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. >>> Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. >>> >>> The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root ?*s?c *is clever (via >>> something like *s?k-tra-*), but of course ?*s?c *is secondary from ?*s?* (via >>> the noun *s?-c??-*), so maybe it doesn't work. >>> >>> Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic >>> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the >>> influence of Sanskrit at a later period. >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dominik, >>>> >>>> The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to >>>> pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three pi?akas >>>> (abhidhamma had yet to appear). >>>> >>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. >>>> >>>> ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed >>>> One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this >>>> is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s >>>> statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or >>>> rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then >>>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, >>>> when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, >>>> [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to >>>> be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is >>>> not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened >>>> One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. >>>> >>>> ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard >>>> this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the >>>> discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement >>>> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >>>> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them >>>> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for >>>> them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >>>> they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the >>>> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of >>>> the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been >>>> learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first great >>>> reference. >>>> >>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: >>>> T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye sandassetabb?ni. Mp >>>> gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly, >>>> this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of >>>> discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other >>>> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. >>>> Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, put down or >>>> put into,? and otaranti, just below, means ?descend, come down, go into.? >>>> My renderings, respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? >>>> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of >>>> sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? >>>> >>>> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the >>>> commentaries unhelpful or misleading. >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the >>>> singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on >>>> secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) >>>> >>>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta >>>> could be *>>> It was represented as a possibility. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dominik >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Thu May 13 16:58:57 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 09:58:57 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta In-Reply-To: References: <92BD55D3-AC74-45FC-B352-D453528F15DC@comcast.net> <24EF1A7D-E179-4A9A-A8FA-D6F225051DA4@wlu.edu> <1A881400-2BCA-4FA0-959B-B3C44187E06A@bristol.ac.uk> <1B15B525-8CC4-4797-8A34-07C4F9BF42C8@wlu.edu> <10e3c849-51a1-a34d-14c9-50d6c815e780@fandm.edu> <447A8ABB-E047-4F2D-844B-1C295C83191E@g.harvard.edu> <5f6b0267-c603-eab6-9cc5-6bcca3ce6bf5@schlingloff.de> Message-ID: Also relevant in this context is another s?tra of P??ini, namely P.4.2.60 [krat?kth?dis?tr?nt?t ?hak], and the preceding rule [tad adh?te tad veda]. Also P.4.2.65 [s?tr?c ca kopadh?t]. Jan Houben already cited some rules referring to Bhik?us?tra and Na?as?tra. So already by the time of P??ini, the use of the term s?tra referring to a certain genre of texts was well established. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Thu, May 13, 2021 at 6:44 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > read, of course, AA 4.3.110 p?r??arya-?il?libhy?? bhik?u-na?a-s?trayo? > > On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 15:35, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > >> Dear Professor Schlingloff, >> Thanks for reminding us of this important textual research, which has >> significant implications for our lexical understanding of the term sutta. >> Your conclusion would be in harmony with the indications found in >> P??ini?s A???dhy?y?, >> AA 4.3.110 p?r??arya-?il?libhy?? bhik?us?trayo? and 110 karmanda-kr???v?d >> ini? >> according to which two groups of ascetics (mendicants) receive a name >> according to the Brahminical ascetic school to which they belong. >> In the Sanskritic-Prakritic, widely understandable diglossic vocabulary >> of the time, still preceding the origination of classical Sanskrit with >> several centuries, >> the term s?tra/sutta was apparently used with regard to (sometimes >> currently lost) texts for teaching, which were within their school a >> Leitfaden, thread or guide >> in relation to some larger body of discussions or texts, such as, also, >> the Br?hma?as and ?ra?yakas in case of the ?rautas?tras. >> This can never exclude (the development of) other contemporaneous >> interpretations and understandings of the term sutta : yog?d r??hir >> bal?yas?... >> With best regards, >> Jan Houben >> >> On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 10:53, Dieter Schlingloff >> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, *Zur Interpretation des >>> Pratimoksasutra*, p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that >>> the Buddhist Pratimoksa*sutra* (in its oldest form) is the earliest >>> Buddhist text at all. This text is a real *thread*, a guide to korrekt >>> behaviour for Buddhist monks. From this guide book, the term was taken over >>> to the following texts concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas. >>> Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff. >>> Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY: >>> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that might >>> be relevant to this discussion: >>> >>> - Paul Dundas (?Somnolent S?tras: Scriptural Commentary in >>> ?vet?mbara Jainism," *Journal of Indian Philosophy* 24: 73?101, >>> 1996) says the following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources): >>> - The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon >>> it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon the >>> acceptance of meaning as being superior to word. This can be seen clearly >>> from the standard Jain etymology for the term ?s?tra? which would derive it >>> from the root s?c, ?indicate.? A s?tra ?indicates? many meanings which the >>> teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the sense from the root >>> text in the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a lump of clay. >>> - Mari Jvy?rsj?rvi (?Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain >>> Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,? *Journal of Indian >>> Philosophy *38.2: 133?162, 2010), cites Sa?ghad?sa?s commentary on >>> the *Br?hatkalpa *(p. 138): >>> - Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or s?tra has a double >>> meaning [ 's?tra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it indicates >>> [s?cana] the meaning, or is well-spoken [s?kta]. These are its etymologies: >>> it 'indicates' or it 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.' >>> These are the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. S?tra is >>> like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by meaning, >>> it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that have] >>> double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A needle, even when >>> broken, can be traced by the thread as long as it is threaded. Likewise >>> meaning [is pointed out] by the s?tra. It 'sews together' words and >>> meanings like a thread [sews together] jackets and so on.13 >>> - The name of one of the older texts in the ?v?t?mbara canon, >>> S?yaga?a-, is often rendered as S?trakr?ta-, but the first part doesn't >>> correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word s?tra-. Willem >>> Boll?e suggested that it might come from *s?ca-kr?ta- or *s?ca-gata- (in >>> his glossary to *Studien zum S?yaga?a*, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the >>> Sanskrit word *s?c?*. >>> >>> Andrew >>> >>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite >>>> the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuy?gadv?ra >>>> of the ?v?t?mbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jamb?vijayaj?'s edition): >>>> >>>> S?tram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., ?ruta, learning): >>>> suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-s?sa?? ??a-vaya?a-uvad?s? >>>> pa??ava?a-?gam? y? ?ga??h? pajjav?-sutt? >>>> >>>> C?r?i? of Jinad?sa: gur?hi? a?akkh?ta? jamh? ?? bujjhati tamh? >>>> p?suttasama? sutta? (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*) >>>> Vivr?ti? of Haribhadra: s?can?t s?tram. >>>> Vr?tti of H?macandra: arth?n?? s?can?t s?tram. >>>> >>>> The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root ?*s?c *is clever (via >>>> something like *s?k-tra-*), but of course ?*s?c *is secondary from ? >>>> *s?* (via the noun *s?-c??-*), so maybe it doesn't work. >>>> >>>> Sanskrit of ukt?- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic >>>> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the >>>> influence of Sanskrit at a later period. >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dominik, >>>>> >>>>> The A?guttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to >>>>> pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three pi?akas >>>>> (abhidhamma had yet to appear). >>>>> >>>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way. >>>>> >>>>> ?Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed >>>>> One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this >>>>> is the discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s >>>>> statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or >>>>> rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then >>>>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If, >>>>> when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, >>>>> [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to >>>>> be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is >>>>> not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened >>>>> One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.? Thus you should discard it. >>>>> >>>>> ?But a bhikkhu might say: ?In the presence of the Blessed One I heard >>>>> this; in his presence I learned this: ?This is the Dhamma; this is the >>>>> discipline; this is the Teacher?s teaching!?? That bhikkhu?s statement >>>>> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it, >>>>> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them >>>>> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for >>>>> them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that] >>>>> they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the >>>>> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ?Surely, this is the word of >>>>> the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been >>>>> learned well by this bhikkhu.? You should remember this first great >>>>> reference. >>>>> >>>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi?s note {893} is interesting: >>>>> T?ni padabya?jan?ni . . . sutte ot?retabb?ni vinaye sandassetabb?ni. >>>>> Mp gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. >>>>> Clearly, this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of >>>>> discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other >>>>> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha. >>>>> Ot?retabb?ni is gerundive plural of ot?renti, ?make descend, put down or >>>>> put into,? and otaranti, just below, means ?descend, come down, go into.? >>>>> My renderings, respectively, as ?check for them? and ?are included among? >>>>> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabb?ni is gerundive plural of >>>>> sandassenti, ?show, make seen,? and sandissanti means ?are seen.? >>>>> >>>>> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the >>>>> commentaries unhelpful or misleading. >>>>> >>>>> Dan >>>>> >>>>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY < >>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the >>>>> singular. That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts". (I'm not on >>>>> secure ground here; my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.) >>>>> >>>>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that >>>>> sutta could be *>>>> about it. It was represented as a possibility. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Dominik >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >> >> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> >> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >> >> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >> transmission >> >> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From revolvingsound at gmail.com Thu May 13 17:44:43 2021 From: revolvingsound at gmail.com (Brian Campbell) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 10:44:43 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?UGFuZGl0IMWacsSrIEhhcmFiaGHhua3hua1hIMWa?= =?utf-8?b?xIFzdHJpJ3MgY29tbWVudGFyeSBvbiBQYcOxY2FzdGF2xKs=?= Message-ID: Dear Indology, I am having a particularly difficult time accessing Pandit ?r? Harabha??a ??stri's commentary on Pa?castav? in five parts. Three of the parts (Laghustava, Carcastava, and Sakalajanan?stava) are available on Internet Archive (see links below), but the remaining two (Gha?astava and Ambastava) I can't see to find anywhere. I have tried variant spellings, but nothing is popping up. If anyone could help point me in the right direction, aside from the hard copies in the libraries at Cal Berkeley and UChicago, I would be much obliged. I know sometimes these things are hiding within the Internet archive under alternate spellings, or even on other websites and so I am hoping someone on the list may be familiar with these works and or might have accessed them online. Best wishes, Brian Campbell https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalalausatvacarcastavacommmetaryharbhattadinanathyachshastrikss90_202003_742_d/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalasakalajananistavabhashyaharabhattashastridinanathyachshastrivol3kss87_202003_277_r -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com Thu May 13 18:49:09 2021 From: mrinalkaul81 at gmail.com (Mrinal Kaul) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 00:19:09 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?UGFuZGl0IMWacsSrIEhhcmFiaGHhua3hua1hIMWa?= =?utf-8?b?xIFzdHJpJ3MgY29tbWVudGFyeSBvbiBQYcOxY2FzdGF2xKs=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Brian, The quick answer to your query lies on p. xxviii of the following book: https://archive.org/details/linguistictraditionsofkashmiressaysinmemoryofpanditdinanathyakshmrinalkaulashoka_300_m/mode/2up Best wishes. Mrinal ----- Mrinal Kaul (he, him, his) Assistant Professor of Indian Philosophy Department of Humanities and Social Sciences (HSS) Indian Institute of Technology-Bombay (IIT-B) Powai, Mumbai 400076, INDIA Tel: +91 022-2576-7371 Extn: 7371 (office) email: mrinal.kaul at iitb.ac.in www.hss.iitb.ac.in/en/faculty-profile/mrinal-kaul https://iitbombay.academia.edu/MrinalKaul On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 23:16, Brian Campbell via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Indology, > > I am having a particularly difficult time accessing Pandit ?r? Harabha??a > ??stri's commentary on Pa?castav? in five parts. Three of the parts > (Laghustava, Carcastava, and Sakalajanan?stava) are available on Internet > Archive (see links below), but the remaining two (Gha?astava and Ambastava) > I can't see to find anywhere. I have tried variant spellings, but nothing > is popping up. > > If anyone could help point me in the right direction, aside from the hard > copies in the libraries at Cal Berkeley and UChicago, I would be much > obliged. I know sometimes these things are hiding within the Internet > archive under alternate spellings, or even on other websites and so I am > hoping someone on the list may be familiar with these works and or might > have accessed them online. > > Best wishes, > Brian Campbell > > > https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalalausatvacarcastavacommmetaryharbhattadinanathyachshastrikss90_202003_742_d/mode/2up > > > https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalasakalajananistavabhashyaharabhattashastridinanathyachshastrivol3kss87_202003_277_r > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From revolvingsound at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:35:39 2021 From: revolvingsound at gmail.com (Brian Campbell) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 12:35:39 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?UGFuZGl0IMWacsSrIEhhcmFiaGHhua3hua1hIMWa?= =?utf-8?b?xIFzdHJpJ3MgY29tbWVudGFyeSBvbiBQYcOxY2FzdGF2xKs=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Mrinal, Thank you so much for your quick response, especially during these challenging times. Now I understand why I've been having such difficultly! Best wishes and I will wait patiently for your next publications. Best, Brian On Thu, May 13, 2021, 11:49 AM Mrinal Kaul wrote: > Dear Brian, > The quick answer to your query lies on p. xxviii of the following book: > > > https://archive.org/details/linguistictraditionsofkashmiressaysinmemoryofpanditdinanathyakshmrinalkaulashoka_300_m/mode/2up > > Best wishes. > Mrinal > ----- > Mrinal Kaul (he, him, his) > Assistant Professor of Indian Philosophy > Department of Humanities and Social Sciences (HSS) > Indian Institute of Technology-Bombay (IIT-B) > Powai, Mumbai 400076, INDIA > Tel: +91 022-2576-7371 Extn: 7371 (office) > email: mrinal.kaul at iitb.ac.in > www.hss.iitb.ac.in/en/faculty-profile/mrinal-kaul > https://iitbombay.academia.edu/MrinalKaul > > > > On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 23:16, Brian Campbell via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Indology, >> >> I am having a particularly difficult time accessing Pandit ?r? Harabha??a >> ??stri's commentary on Pa?castav? in five parts. Three of the parts >> (Laghustava, Carcastava, and Sakalajanan?stava) are available on Internet >> Archive (see links below), but the remaining two (Gha?astava and Ambastava) >> I can't see to find anywhere. I have tried variant spellings, but nothing >> is popping up. >> >> If anyone could help point me in the right direction, aside from the hard >> copies in the libraries at Cal Berkeley and UChicago, I would be much >> obliged. I know sometimes these things are hiding within the Internet >> archive under alternate spellings, or even on other websites and so I am >> hoping someone on the list may be familiar with these works and or might >> have accessed them online. >> >> Best wishes, >> Brian Campbell >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalalausatvacarcastavacommmetaryharbhattadinanathyachshastrikss90_202003_742_d/mode/2up >> >> >> https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalasakalajananistavabhashyaharabhattashastridinanathyachshastrivol3kss87_202003_277_r >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Thu May 13 19:50:20 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Thu, 13 May 2021 15:50:20 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?UGFuZGl0IMWacsSrIEhhcmFiaGHhua3hua1hIMWa?= =?utf-8?b?xIFzdHJpJ3MgY29tbWVudGFyeSBvbiBQYcOxY2FzdGF2xKs=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Brian, The Carcastava and Laghustava are available in the Muktabodha digital library as searchable etexts in unicode transliteration. www.muktabodha.org Harry Spier Sent from mobile phone. On Thu, May 13, 2021, 13:46 Brian Campbell via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Indology, > > I am having a particularly difficult time accessing Pandit ?r? Harabha??a > ??stri's commentary on Pa?castav? in five parts. Three of the parts > (Laghustava, Carcastava, and Sakalajanan?stava) are available on Internet > Archive (see links below), but the remaining two (Gha?astava and Ambastava) > I can't see to find anywhere. I have tried variant spellings, but nothing > is popping up. > > If anyone could help point me in the right direction, aside from the hard > copies in the libraries at Cal Berkeley and UChicago, I would be much > obliged. I know sometimes these things are hiding within the Internet > archive under alternate spellings, or even on other websites and so I am > hoping someone on the list may be familiar with these works and or might > have accessed them online. > > Best wishes, > Brian Campbell > > > https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalalausatvacarcastavacommmetaryharbhattadinanathyachshastrikss90_202003_742_d/mode/2up > > > https://archive.org/details/pancastavamalasakalajananistavabhashyaharabhattashastridinanathyachshastrivol3kss87_202003_277_r > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri May 14 06:25:17 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 06:25:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk Fri May 14 10:36:28 2021 From: BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk (Simon Brodbeck) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 10:36:28 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Transdisciplinary Approaches to the Ramayana and Mahabharata: Seminar Programme and Registration Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Please find attached the programme and registration link for the six-week seminar series on "Transdisciplinary Approaches to the Ramayana and Mahabharata", to be held online this June and July. In case of difficulties with the attachment, the programme and the registration link are pasted in at the bottom of this email. Yours faithfully, Simon Brodbeck, Laxshmi Greaves, and James Hegarty Cardiff University -------------------- Transdisciplinary Approaches to the Ra?ma?yan?a and Maha?bha?rata International Online Seminar Series CONFIRMED PROGRAMME Thurs 3 June 2021, 1400--1630 BST Gayathri Iyer (JNU): ?Ravana Anugra?am?rti as Seen through the Eyes of ?iva?s Ga??s: Commentary or Humour?? John Brockington (Edinburgh): ?Some Illustrated V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a Manuscripts? Giulia Buriola (La Sapienza): ?Shaping Identities through the Ra?ma?yan?a: Interpreting Prapanna?mr?ta 123?126? Thurs 10 June, 1400--1630 BST Panel: Polish Mah?bh?rata Translation Project Joanna Jurewicz (Warsaw): ?Vy?sa as a Film-Maker. Creating of Battle-Scenes in Selected Examples of MBh 6? Andrzej Babkiewicz (Warsaw): ?Weapons in the Mah?bh?rata ? an Attempt of Reconstruction? Sven Sellmer (AMU Pozna?): ?Computer-Based Analysis of the Usage of Expressions Denoting Weapons in the Mah?bh?rata? Thurs 17 June, 1400--1630 BST Shubha Pathak (American): ?Demonic and Demidivine Beauty in the Eyes of Demidivine and Demonic Beholders: Making Hanumat Disbelieve and Duryodhana Misbelieve through (A-)Purus?a?rthic Assembly-Hall Aesthetics in the Ra?ma?yan?a and Maha?bha?rata? Saran Suebsantiwongse (Cambridge): ?When Thai Kings Became ?R?ma?: Origin, Function and Interpretation of the R?makien as Seen through the History, Politics and Material Culture of Thailand? Emily Hudson: ?Hiding in Plain Sight: the Surprise Twist in the V?lm?ki R?m?ya?a? Thurs 24 June, 1400--1630 BST Roberto Morales-Harley (M?laga): ?Lifting Brides / Lifting Enemies: Male Embraces in the Mah?bh?rata?s Vir??aparvan and Bh?sa?s Pa?car?tram? Harold Wiese (Leipzig): ?Decisions in the Maha?bha?rata? Christopher Austin (Dalhousie): ?Subrahma?ya K???a: Stolen and Unstolen Cows in the Mah?bh?rata and Hariva??a? Thurs 1 July, 1400--1630 BST Panel: Resonances of Separation: Pathos, Compassion, and Divinity in R?m?ya?a Narratives Mercy Dutta (JNU): ?Loving like a Spouse, Ruling like a King: Historicizing Emotional Conflict through Bhavabhu?ti?s Uttarar?macaritam? Tarinee Awasthi (Cornell): ?Pathos and Compassion in the Ra?macaritama?nasa and Beyond? Aditya Chaturvedi (Emory): ?Revealing the Goddess: Si?t??s Response to Separation from Ra?ma in Rames?varacarita Mithila? Ra?ma?yan?a? Thurs 8 July, 1400--1630 BST Max Deeg (Cardiff): ?The Buddha in the ?Wild West?: J?takas and Other Stories in Gandh?ra and their Religio-Political Context? Suganya Anandakichenin (Hamburg): ?Nind?stuti or stutinind?? ?i?up?la?s words on K???a in Villipputt?rar?s Tamil P?ratam? Simon Brodbeck (Cardiff): ?Holst?s S?vitri Libretto? To register: https://cardiff.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZ0tdOuppjMjGNc8Jutfg_p8OehzkShiutbv -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TARM_PROGRAMME__compressed_link.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1840668 bytes Desc: TARM_PROGRAMME__compressed_link.pdf URL: From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com Fri May 14 14:50:23 2021 From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 20:20:23 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request V Raghavan Bibliography Message-ID: Dear all I am searching for the pdf of https://www.worldcat.org/title/bibliography-of-the-books-papers-other-contributions-of-dr-v-raghavan-professor-of-sanskrit-university-of-madras/oclc/4520433 Any help would be appreciated Thanks Krishna Prasad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri May 14 15:08:48 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 15:08:48 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net>, Message-ID: Dear Matthew, Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? yath?hu? lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Fri May 14 16:07:52 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 16:07:52 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Matthew and Aleksandar, Matthew, you say: ?Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, ?? But we should remember that s?c- is also (indeed, most literally) connected with piercing (with a needle) and sewing. S?c?/s?caka = needle, s?cita = pierced, s?cika = tailor, s?cit? = needlework. So a double-entendre is involved here: the s?tras have ?indicated meanings? but also ?stitched meanings,? and so, paradoxically, the nirukti deriving it from s?c- is still an indication of a basic meaning of ?thread?. Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:09 AM To: INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew, Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? yath?hu? lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri May 14 16:21:42 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 16:21:42 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> , Message-ID: Thanks, Tim. The double-entendre has been on my mind too. You have no problem with "indicated meaning"? I am a bit reluctant to it because of possible confusion with figurative meaning (abhidh? vs. lak?a??), which I don't think is intended. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: Lubin, Tim Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:07 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew and Aleksandar, Matthew, you say: ?Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, ?? But we should remember that s?c- is also (indeed, most literally) connected with piercing (with a needle) and sewing. S?c?/s?caka = needle, s?cita = pierced, s?cika = tailor, s?cit? = needlework. So a double-entendre is involved here: the s?tras have ?indicated meanings? but also ?stitched meanings,? and so, paradoxically, the nirukti deriving it from s?c- is still an indication of a basic meaning of ?thread?. Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:09 AM To: INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew, Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? yath?hu? lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Fri May 14 16:43:15 2021 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 12:43:15 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> Message-ID: <225EF9CB-9180-4A5A-8A76-D526585940D4@gmail.com> Yuktid?pik? (earlier than V?caspati) also cites the verse lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni? (Wezler/Motegi edtition 4.2-3). Also: ?ha | atha s?tramiti kasm?t | ucyate | s?can?t s?tram | s?cayati t??st?narthavi?e??niti s?tram | ? atha v? bhik?orupasa?h?tabahi?kara??nta?kara?asya te?u te?vat?ndriye?vapi pradh?n?di?varthe?u buddhi? s?cayat?ti s?tram | (Yuktid?pik? Wezler/Motegi edtition 3.20-21, 25-26). > On May 14, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY wrote: > > lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Fri May 14 16:54:18 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 16:54:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> Message-ID: Aleksandar, it depends on whether one wants to restrict the use of ?indicated (meaning)? to lak?ita/lak?a??. I would think there are other, better renderings available for the latter when it is contrasted with abhidh?: ?indirect?, ?figurative?, ?suggestive?, etc., vs. ?direct?, ?literal?. I realize that ?indicate? is within the range of meanings of forms of lak?- (in the basic sense of ?target, thing aimed at?), but to my ear ?indicate? leans more to directness (lit., ?pointing to?), and thus accords well with the ?pointy? directness of s?c-. Anyway, I would think that the absence of anything to do with literal vs. figurative meaning in the context should be enough to avoid confusion, no? Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 12:21 PM To: "Lubin, Tim" , INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Thanks, Tim. The double-entendre has been on my mind too. You have no problem with "indicated meaning"? I am a bit reluctant to it because of possible confusion with figurative meaning (abhidh? vs. lak?a??), which I don't think is intended. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: Lubin, Tim Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:07 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew and Aleksandar, Matthew, you say: ?Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, ?? But we should remember that s?c- is also (indeed, most literally) connected with piercing (with a needle) and sewing. S?c?/s?caka = needle, s?cita = pierced, s?cika = tailor, s?cit? = needlework. So a double-entendre is involved here: the s?tras have ?indicated meanings? but also ?stitched meanings,? and so, paradoxically, the nirukti deriving it from s?c- is still an indication of a basic meaning of ?thread?. Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:09 AM To: INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew, Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? yath?hu? lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri May 14 16:59:24 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 16:59:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> , Message-ID: In fact, Tim, I did think that there might be a double meaning of S?C, but hesitated as the Tibetan, which sometimes gives double glosses in such cases, here reads only mdo tsam smos pa "stating merely the crux" (mdo, which in fact serves as the standard Tibetan for sutra, originally means a crossroads or confluence). best, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: Lubin, Tim Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 11:54 AM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Aleksandar, it depends on whether one wants to restrict the use of ?indicated (meaning)? to lak?ita/lak?a??. I would think there are other, better renderings available for the latter when it is contrasted with abhidh?: ?indirect?, ?figurative?, ?suggestive?, etc., vs. ?direct?, ?literal?. I realize that ?indicate? is within the range of meanings of forms of lak?- (in the basic sense of ?target, thing aimed at?), but to my ear ?indicate? leans more to directness (lit., ?pointing to?), and thus accords well with the ?pointy? directness of s?c-. Anyway, I would think that the absence of anything to do with literal vs. figurative meaning in the context should be enough to avoid confusion, no? Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 12:21 PM To: "Lubin, Tim" , INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Thanks, Tim. The double-entendre has been on my mind too. You have no problem with "indicated meaning"? I am a bit reluctant to it because of possible confusion with figurative meaning (abhidh? vs. lak?a??), which I don't think is intended. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: Lubin, Tim Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:07 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew and Aleksandar, Matthew, you say: ?Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, ?? But we should remember that s?c- is also (indeed, most literally) connected with piercing (with a needle) and sewing. S?c?/s?caka = needle, s?cita = pierced, s?cika = tailor, s?cit? = needlework. So a double-entendre is involved here: the s?tras have ?indicated meanings? but also ?stitched meanings,? and so, paradoxically, the nirukti deriving it from s?c- is still an indication of a basic meaning of ?thread?. Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:09 AM To: INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew, Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? yath?hu? lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu Fri May 14 17:26:25 2021 From: aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu (Uskokov, Aleksandar) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 17:26:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> , Message-ID: Thank you. Yes, I use "figurative meaning" for lak?a?? consistently, though I've seen others use "indication," which is why the concern. The context is clear, though, yes. Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: Lubin, Tim Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:54 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Aleksandar, it depends on whether one wants to restrict the use of ?indicated (meaning)? to lak?ita/lak?a??. I would think there are other, better renderings available for the latter when it is contrasted with abhidh?: ?indirect?, ?figurative?, ?suggestive?, etc., vs. ?direct?, ?literal?. I realize that ?indicate? is within the range of meanings of forms of lak?- (in the basic sense of ?target, thing aimed at?), but to my ear ?indicate? leans more to directness (lit., ?pointing to?), and thus accords well with the ?pointy? directness of s?c-. Anyway, I would think that the absence of anything to do with literal vs. figurative meaning in the context should be enough to avoid confusion, no? Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 12:21 PM To: "Lubin, Tim" , INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Thanks, Tim. The double-entendre has been on my mind too. You have no problem with "indicated meaning"? I am a bit reluctant to it because of possible confusion with figurative meaning (abhidh? vs. lak?a??), which I don't think is intended. Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: Lubin, Tim Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:07 PM To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew and Aleksandar, Matthew, you say: ?Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, ?? But we should remember that s?c- is also (indeed, most literally) connected with piercing (with a needle) and sewing. S?c?/s?caka = needle, s?cita = pierced, s?cika = tailor, s?cit? = needlework. So a double-entendre is involved here: the s?tras have ?indicated meanings? but also ?stitched meanings,? and so, paradoxically, the nirukti deriving it from s?c- is still an indication of a basic meaning of ?thread?. Best, Tim _________________________________________ Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY Reply-To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:09 AM To: INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear Matthew, Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? yath?hu? lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? Best wishes, Aleksandar Aleksandar Uskokov Lector in Sanskrit South Asian Studies Council, Yale University 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear friends, Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" Dear all, Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra, comments on which emerged along the way. Best wishes, Jim Ryan California Institute of Integral Studies -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andra.kleb at gmail.com Fri May 14 17:41:04 2021 From: andra.kleb at gmail.com (Andrey Klebanov) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 02:41:04 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" In-Reply-To: References: <24A685A1-1BE7-419B-9CAC-DC3015038227@comcast.net> Message-ID: The Su?rutasa?hit? (S? 3.12) has another verse of the kind: s?can?t s?tra??c caiva savan?c c?rthasantate? / ?a?catv?ri??adadhy?ya? s?trasth?na? pracak?ate // The old Nepalese transmission of the text reads ?s?dhan?c c?rthasantate?? in p?da b. best, Andrey On 15. May 2021, 02:28 +0900, Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY , wrote: > Thank you. Yes, I use "figurative meaning" for?lak?a?? consistently, though I've seen others use "indication," which is why the concern. The context is clear, though, yes. > > Aleksandar Uskokov > Lector in Sanskrit > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > From: Lubin, Tim > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:54 PM > To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" > > Aleksandar, it depends on whether one wants to restrict the use of ?indicated (meaning)? to lak?ita/lak?a??.? I would think there are other, better renderings available for the latter when it is contrasted with abhidh?: ?indirect?, ?figurative?, ?suggestive?, etc., vs. ?direct?, ?literal?.? I realize that ?indicate? is within the range of meanings of forms of lak?- (in the basic sense of ?target, thing aimed at?), but to my ear ?indicate? leans more to directness (lit., ?pointing to?), and thus accords well with the ?pointy? directness of s?c-. > Anyway, I would think that the absence of anything to do with literal vs. figurative meaning in the context should be enough to avoid confusion, no? > > Tim > > _________________________________________ > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > > From: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" > Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 12:21 PM > To: "Lubin, Tim" , INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" > > Thanks, Tim. The double-entendre has been on my mind too. You have no problem with "indicated meaning"? I am a bit reluctant to it because of possible confusion with figurative meaning (abhidh? vs. lak?a??), which I don't think is intended. > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > Lector in Sanskrit > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > From: Lubin, Tim > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 12:07 PM > To: Uskokov, Aleksandar ; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan ; Matthew Kapstein > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" > > Dear Matthew and Aleksandar, > > Matthew, you say: ?Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, ??? But we should remember that s?c- is also (indeed, most literally) connected with piercing (with a needle) and sewing.? S?c?/s?caka = needle, s?cita = pierced, s?cika = tailor, s?cit? = needlework. > > So a double-entendre is involved here: the s?tras have ?indicated meanings? but also ?stitched meanings,? and so, paradoxically, the nirukti deriving it from s?c- is still an indication of a basic meaning of ?thread?. > > Best, > Tim > > _________________________________________ > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > > > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of INDOLOGY > Reply-To: "Uskokov, Aleksandar" > Date: Friday, May 14, 2021 at 11:09 AM > To: INDOLOGY , Jim Ryan , "mkapstei at UCHICAGO.EDU" > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" > > Dear Matthew, > > Thank you for sharing this. The same idea appears as part of the definition found in?V?caspati?s Bh?mat? on BSBh 1.1.1 (and I imagine elsewhere) ? > > yath?hu? > lagh?ni s?cit?rth?ni svalp?k?arapad?ni ca | > sarvata? s?rabh?t?ni s?tr??y ?hur man??i?a? || > > I have been thinking for a while about the best way to render this s?tr??i ? s?cit?rth?ni in English and am currently leaning towards ?s?tras are statements that index their meaning.? I wanted to avoid ?indication? because of possible confusion with figurative meaning, but perhaps that is too cautious? What would you (the forum) suggest? > > Best wishes, > Aleksandar > > Aleksandar Uskokov > Lector in Sanskrit > South Asian Studies Council, Yale University > 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 2:25 AM > To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info ; Jim Ryan > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" > > Dear friends, > > Without wishing to prolong too much what has already been a very long (though highly informative!) thread (so to speak), I thought that this might be of some interest: > In the early 9th century Tibetan work, the ?Two-Volume Lexicon? (sgra sbyor bam po gnyis pa), which was compiled by a team of Tibetan translators working under the guidance of a group of monastic scholars from Apar?ntaka (Kashmir/Gandh?ra/Bactria) and provides nirukta-style explanations of several hundred key terms in Sanskrit with Tibetan commentary, s?tra is glossed arthas?can?d s?tra [read, of course, arthas?can?t s?tram]. > Once more, S?C, and nothing to do with thread, was prominent in the Buddhist understanding of the term. > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 12:42 PM > To: INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Buddhist "sutta" > > Dear all, > > Thanks to all of you who contributed to this robust and quite informative ?thread? (s?tra!) on the proper derivation of the Buddhist term?sutta from the Sanskrit. I tossed a pebble in the pond, I thought, which made > ripples beyond expectations. A thorough treatment of the issue that leaves open, perhaps, a fillip of sorts (this said without having yet read Nathan McGovern?s article.) Of course, the philological question rather quickly > leads to deeper issues regarding the conceptualization of types of text among traditions. I hadn?t even considered Jain notions of sutta/s?tra,?comments on which emerged along the way. > > Best wishes, > > Jim Ryan > California Institute of Integral Studies > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri May 14 20:09:48 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 22:09:48 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thank everyone who has contributed to this thread, on the list or off list. Special thanks also to those who sent me various scans of Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya. All best, Jan Houben On Sun, 9 May 2021 at 15:57, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear All, > A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking place at > Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic it is > entirely online: the announcement (http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) > is accessible on several lists. > In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory at the > beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive references > to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched theory is > found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture of early India* (Leiden > 2007) -- Johannes Bronkhorst referred briefly to his comparison between > Brahmins (and their cultural context) and the German Nazis (and their > cultural context). On this specific reference by Johannes Bronkhorst during > the symposium, I posed a question in the special section set up by the > organizers of the conference: "Questions and answers will be conducted over > a separate service, sli.do." > Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did not pass > the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online questions -- who > wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no such comparison" > -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora such as this > Indology List. > Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha* book of > Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the anonymous > moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have > immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp. > 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere), where we > read: > > "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not like them. > ... > It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the Third Reich. > Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of German Art > in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted urban and > industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)." > > The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since a very > different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing Brahmins > in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me in: > > ?From Fuzzy-Edged ?Family-Veda? to the Canonical ??khas of the Catur-Veda: > Structures and Tangible Traces.? In: *Vedic ??kh?s: Past, Present, > Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic Workshop, Bucharest* > 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, > Mass. : Harvard University, 2016. > > As the book is at present no more available but will soon again be > available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily* accessible > on my Academia.edu page. > > The main principles followed in this study to explain the situation of the > community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1) "natural > selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current medium of > transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus written texts, > inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added and at present > the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the context of an > *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019 (see also: > Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological History of India*, > 1992 and Perennials edition 2013). > N.B. Both Houben 2001: > ??Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pram??a*s in the > history of S??khya.? *?tudes de Lettres* 2001.3: *La rationalit? en Asie > / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J. Bronkhorst: 165-194. > and Houben 2019: > ?Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and Contextual > Evidence.? [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and ancient Iranian > ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic Thought, Ritual, and > Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh Umakant Thite?s > Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 > (References to this article integrated in id., ?Bibliography,? pp. > 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books > are now accessible on my Academia.edu page. > > I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful discussions. > > All best, Jan Houben > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jm63 at soas.ac.uk Fri May 14 20:44:12 2021 From: jm63 at soas.ac.uk (James Mallinson) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 21:44:12 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. All the best, Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Fri May 14 21:12:17 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 21:12:17 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jim, Perhaps try thinking of a heavy medieval lock opened by a very large metal key, requiring rather a lot of force to turn or slide, depending upon the type of lock being used. Maybe my imagination is too influenced by images of huge Tibetan locks and keys that served also as lethal weapons. Might not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the palace museums? best ever, Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of James Mallinson Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 3:44 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile Dear colleagues, I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. All the best, Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rsalomon at uw.edu Fri May 14 21:18:36 2021 From: rsalomon at uw.edu (Richard G. Salomon) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 14:18:36 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or maybe the trick is to understand *ha?h?t *not as "force (open)," but rather in the sense of "necessarily, inevitably" (so MW). Thus the simile refers to the infallibility of the ku??alin? yoga, rather than to its power. Rich Salomon On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:12 PM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Jim, > > Perhaps try thinking of a heavy medieval lock opened by a very large metal > key, requiring rather a lot of force to turn or slide, depending upon the > type of lock being used. Maybe my imagination is too influenced by images > of huge Tibetan locks and keys that served also as lethal weapons. Might > not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the palace > museums? > > best ever, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > ------------------------------ > *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of James > Mallinson > *Sent:* Friday, May 14, 2021 3:44 PM > *To:* Indology > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile > > Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a *ha?hayoga* text > I?m editing, the *Vivekam?rta??a*. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to > break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a > *ku?cik?* to force open a *kap??a*.? I had been translating *ku?cik?* as > ?key? and *kap??a* as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A > key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this > *ku?cik?* and *kap??a* might be. I am aware that a * kap??a* is usually a > double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the > *ku?cik?*? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy > simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellmers at gmx.de Fri May 14 21:33:15 2021 From: sellmers at gmx.de (Sven Sellmer) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 23:33:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jim! It seems to be possible that the ku?cik? might be either a massive key, as Matthew suggested, or perhaps even rather a kind of special stick. Some details on Indian keys and locks can be found in: Oskar v. Hin?ber: Sprachentwicklung und Kulturgeschichte. Ein Beitrag zur materiellen Kultur des buddhistischen Klosterwesens. Stuttgart: Steiner (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Geistes- und Sozialwiss. Klasse. Jg. 1992, Nr. 6)., esp. pp. 14??24, 30??34. Best wishes, Sven > Am 14.05.2021 um 23:12 schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY : > > Dear Jim, > > Perhaps try thinking of a heavy medieval lock opened by a very large metal key, requiring rather a lot of force to turn or slide, depending upon the type of lock being used. Maybe my imagination is too influenced by images of huge Tibetan locks and keys that served also as lethal weapons. Might not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the palace museums? > > best ever, > Matthew > > Matthew Kapstein > Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris > > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, > The University of Chicago > From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of James Mallinson > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 3:44 PM > To: Indology > > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile > > Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vajpeyi at csds.in Fri May 14 21:53:36 2021 From: vajpeyi at csds.in (Ananya Vajpeyi) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 03:23:36 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || Just as one might throw open the palace gates by forcibly turning the key, So must a yog? break open the portals of mok?a with the force / power of his (awakened) ku??alin?. Jim I think ha?h?t here is like Hindi "zor se", and kap??a is like kiv?? (a ba??, bh?r? double darv?z?). It's just easier in Hindi: ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?? (?? ???) ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? I trust you are on the very verge of what the verse describes... the ku??alin? is key, so to speak. Yours, AV. On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 2:50 AM Richard G. Salomon via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Or maybe the trick is to understand *ha?h?t *not as "force (open)," but > rather in the sense of "necessarily, inevitably" (so MW). Thus the simile > refers to the infallibility of the ku??alin? yoga, rather than to its power. > > Rich Salomon > > On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:12 PM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Jim, >> >> Perhaps try thinking of a heavy medieval lock opened by a very large >> metal key, requiring rather a lot of force to turn or slide, depending upon >> the type of lock being used. Maybe my imagination is too influenced by >> images of huge Tibetan locks and keys that served also as lethal weapons. >> Might not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the >> palace museums? >> >> best ever, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* INDOLOGY on behalf of >> James Mallinson >> *Sent:* Friday, May 14, 2021 3:44 PM >> *To:* Indology >> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a *ha?hayoga* >> text I?m editing, the *Vivekam?rta??a*. Verse 34 reads: >> >> udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | >> ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || >> >> My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? >> to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use >> a *ku?cik?* to force open a *kap??a*.? I had been translating *ku?cik?* >> as ?key? and *kap??a* as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. >> A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this >> *ku?cik?* and *kap??a* might be. I am aware that a * kap??a* is usually >> a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is >> the *ku?cik?*? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather >> sloppy simile. >> >> All the best, >> >> Jim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Ananya Vajpeyi* https://www.csds.in/ananya_vajpeyi http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/people/profile/ananya-vajpeyi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From prajnapti at gmail.com Fri May 14 21:55:05 2021 From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 17:55:05 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <161D2A65-E78F-4B69-B685-A1FD54AEA3C7@gmail.com> Dear Jim, Please disregard if you find this silly, but my thinking went in a different direction. Ku?cik? = a key, but it evokes a sense of similar terms, such as ku?cana, ?curving, bending, contracting; contraction (of a vein)? (MW), and ku?cita ?crooked, curved, bent, contracted; curled (MW), i.e., an image of a coiled snake; keys do force locks to unlock by exerting pressure on tumblers, etc., so just as a key ?snakes? its way to open a door, Ku??alin? breaks through the doorway to liberation for a Yogi. The violence of the snake is implicit in the imagery. best wishes, Dan > On May 14, 2021, at 5:33 PM, Sven Sellmer via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Jim! > > It seems to be possible that the ku?cik? might be either a massive key, as Matthew suggested, or perhaps even rather a kind of special stick. Some details on Indian keys and locks can be found in: > > Oskar v. Hin?ber: Sprachentwicklung und Kulturgeschichte. Ein Beitrag zur materiellen Kultur des buddhistischen Klosterwesens. Stuttgart: Steiner (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Geistes- und Sozialwiss. Klasse. Jg. 1992, Nr. 6)., esp. pp. 14??24, 30??34. > > Best wishes, > Sven > > > >> Am 14.05.2021 um 23:12 schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY >: >> >> Dear Jim, >> >> Perhaps try thinking of a heavy medieval lock opened by a very large metal key, requiring rather a lot of force to turn or slide, depending upon the type of lock being used. Maybe my imagination is too influenced by images of huge Tibetan locks and keys that served also as lethal weapons. Might not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the palace museums? >> >> best ever, >> Matthew >> >> Matthew Kapstein >> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite >> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris >> >> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, >> The University of Chicago >> From: INDOLOGY > on behalf of James Mallinson > >> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 3:44 PM >> To: Indology > >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: >> >> udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | >> ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || >> >> My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. >> >> All the best, >> >> Jim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoepearl1 at gmail.com Sat May 15 00:03:06 2021 From: zoepearl1 at gmail.com (Zoe Slatoff) Date: Fri, 14 May 2021 20:03:06 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile Message-ID: <4064D5BB-7AE9-4D27-8E61-3A1E875D8835@gmail.com> ???Dear Jim, I was just looking at this verse recently when considering different definitions of ha?ha and I wonder whether perhaps the verbs are the issue rather than the simile? I?m sure you probably know more about this than I do, but it seems to me that once the ku??alin? is awakened (which I know can take some force) it should actually arise quite easily like a key unlocks a door? Best wishes, Zo? > On May 14, 2021, at 4:45 PM, James Mallinson wrote: > ?Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sat May 15 03:40:10 2021 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 09:10:10 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: <4064D5BB-7AE9-4D27-8E61-3A1E875D8835@gmail.com> References: <4064D5BB-7AE9-4D27-8E61-3A1E875D8835@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, it is the verbs which are important here. ??????? and ?????? are what are being compared. ???? , ?????? is Kundalinee saadhanaa related term . There is a ???? , ?????? of each chakra. This is a process of revealing/unfolding each of these entities/aspects that are already existing but closed to one's own experience, to one's own experience. The procedures for ???? , ?????? of each chakra are to be executed under the Guru's guidance. Hatha here refers to (the courage/perseverance for ) overcoming the hesitation/fear or fearlike state experienced during the moment of ???? , ??????. There is a skill and insistence involved in turning the key through the levers inside the lock, while groping for the levers and waiting for the moment of the notches of the key fitting the levers and turning immediately once that matching/fitting is felt with the optimum amount of force and skill. On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 5:33 AM Zoe Slatoff via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > ???Dear Jim, > > I was just looking at this verse recently when considering different > definitions of ha?ha and I wonder whether perhaps the verbs are the issue > rather than the simile? I?m sure you probably know more about this than I > do, but it seems to me that once the ku??alin? is awakened (which I know > can take some force) it should actually arise quite easily like a key > unlocks a door? > > Best wishes, > Zo? > > On May 14, 2021, at 4:45 PM, James Mallinson wrote: > > ?Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a *ha?hayoga* text > I?m editing, the *Vivekam?rta??a*. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to > break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a > *ku?cik?* to force open a *kap??a*.? I had been translating *ku?cik?* as > ?key? and *kap??a* as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A > key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this > *ku?cik?* and *kap??a* might be. I am aware that a *kap??a* is usually a > double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the > *ku?cik?*? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy > simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr Sat May 15 04:21:15 2021 From: andrea.acri at ephe.sorbonne.fr (Andrea Acri) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 06:21:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E4AA0F5-FEFA-4D17-B956-77789502237C@ephe.sorbonne.fr> Dear Jim, I see your problem, and I think that the replies you have got so far are being helpful in clarifying this matter. Thinking about how to make sense of your passage in the light of other occurrences of ku?cik? in a yogic context (sorry in advance for stating things that may seem just obvious to you), I?m wondering whether the use of ha?h?t in your passage could refer to the quintessentially/necessarily forceful nature of utkr?nti, even if one has the ?key? that opens the doors (keeping in mind the remarks by Matthew Kapstein etc.). As you know (better than me, as I am using your own writings as a reference!), the word ku?cik? is sometimes used in Sanskrit (and, I add, Old Javanese) texts in connection with practices of drawing up (utkr?nti) the kun?d?alini? along the central subtle channel of the body (some sort of ?yogic suicide?), as well as practices involving breath control, and sometimes the retention and violent expulsion of the breath (ku?cik? would refer to the retention in some Old Javanese texts, which mention the ku?ci rahasya or ?secret key? through which one may close rather than open the doors). See, e.g., Kubjika?matatantra 8.73 (ku?cikodgh??ayed bilam), 23.114 (e?u sth?ne ?rgala? yojya ku?cikordhva? niyojayet; this seems to imply the same metaphor: if my understanding is correct, one has to impel the ku?ick? upwards when the orifices are locked with the bolts, meaning one has to break them open by way of the ?key?/ku?cik??), and the related passages that yourself discuss in Mallinson 2007:21 and 177, notes 79?80. It seems interesting that the Old Javanese texts seem to use ku?cik? in the context of closing the doors and then breaking them open, and I?m wondering whether this represents some alternative or perhaps even earlier trend of thought/practice. Best, Andrea > Le 14 mai 2021 ? 22:44, James Mallinson a ?crit : > > Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Sat May 15 05:07:52 2021 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: 15 May 2021 05:07:52 -0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Help_with_a_simile?= Message-ID: <1621055121.S.51016.autosave.drafts.1621055272.7167@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Mallimson,I find "Kunchika" may be loosely translated as "Ripper" i.e a tool to rip open something. Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: James Mallinson <jm63 at soas.ac.uk> Sent: Sat, 15 May 2021 02:14:28 GMT+0530 To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile Dear colleagues,I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads:udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t |ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet ||My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile.All the best,Jim _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vajpeyi at csds.in Sat May 15 13:37:46 2021 From: vajpeyi at csds.in (Ananya Vajpeyi) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 19:07:46 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: <1621055121.S.51016.autosave.drafts.1621055272.7167@webmail.rediffmail.com> References: <1621055121.S.51016.autosave.drafts.1621055272.7167@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, picking up from Prof. Kapstein and Andrea Acri, I am reminded that in Hindi, the "key" or "Cliff Notes" that people use to study for exams here in India is called a ku?j?. Basically, with the right ku?j?, you can "crack" an entrance exam. I realize that the door-key-opening-breaking through metaphor is continuing here, from ku??alin? yoga to the IIT qualifying test, which yields its own version of mok?a for the successful candidates. And certainly getting through such ordeals to breach the portals of these vaunted institutions -- engineering / medical / architecture / management / law colleges -- requires a certain ha?ha, determination, force, effort, discipline, rigour, zor-zabardast?! I see you don't really need our help, except as a form of "time-pass" in this unending lockdown... Yours, AV. On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM alakendu das via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dr.Mallimson, > I find "Kunchika" may be loosely translated as "Ripper" i.e a tool to rip > open something. > > Alakendu Das. > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > > > > From: James Mallinson > Sent: Sat, 15 May 2021 02:14:28 GMT+0530 > To: Indology > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile > > Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a *ha?hayoga* text > I?m editing, the *Vivekam?rta??a*. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to > break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a > *ku?cik?* to force open a *kap??a*.? I had been translating *ku?cik?* as > ?key? and *kap??a* as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A > key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this > *ku?cik?* and *kap??a* might be. I am aware that a *kap??a* is usually a > double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the > *ku?cik?*? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy > simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Ananya Vajpeyi* https://www.csds.in/ananya_vajpeyi http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/people/profile/ananya-vajpeyi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gerard.huet at inria.fr Sat May 15 18:00:46 2021 From: gerard.huet at inria.fr (huet) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 20:00:46 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news Message-ID: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> Dear Indology list, I was sorry to learn today of the sad demise of Pr. Laksmi Thathachar , former Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote. As an early investigator of computerized ?abdabodha, he was a founding father of Sanskrit computational linguistics. G?rard Huet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rpg at berkeley.edu Sat May 15 18:17:32 2021 From: rpg at berkeley.edu (Robert Goldman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 11:17:32 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news In-Reply-To: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> References: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> Message-ID: <6F69F4F4-E740-47AA-8CA9-C3491FC906BD@berkeley.edu> Very sad news indeed. I had visited with him in Melkote back in 1992 and was deeply impressed with his learning and helpfulness. He will be sorely missed. Dr. R. P. Goldman Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 The University of California at Berkeley Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 Tel: 510-642-4089 Fax: 510-642-2409 > On May 15, 2021, at 11:00 AM, huet wrote: > > Dear Indology list, > > I was sorry to learn today of the sad demise of Pr. Laksmi Thathachar , former Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote. > As an early investigator of computerized ?abdabodha, he was a founding father of Sanskrit computational linguistics. > G?rard Huet > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From s.raman at utoronto.ca Sat May 15 18:43:19 2021 From: s.raman at utoronto.ca (Srilata Raman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 18:43:19 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news In-Reply-To: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> References: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> Message-ID: The world of ?r?vai??avism has lost a really remarkable person of the sa?prad?ya, brilliant, deeply curious, very learned and yet open to thinking in critical ways about the tradition, always helpful and with a wonderful sense of humour. I knew him very well in his Melkote days and cherished his many sterling qualities. It is a very sad day indeed. Srilata Raman, Associate Professor of Hinduism, University of Toronto. ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of huet Sent: May 15, 2021 2:00 PM To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news EXTERNAL EMAIL: Dear Indology list, I was sorry to learn today of the sad demise of Pr. Laksmi Thathachar, former Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote. As an early investigator of computerized ?abdabodha, he was a founding father of Sanskrit computational linguistics. G?rard Huet [cid:1E4870FD-F15C-41E9-AC4F-2B880A9E7DFD at home] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169509 bytes Desc: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg URL: From ambapradeep at gmail.com Sat May 15 18:46:05 2021 From: ambapradeep at gmail.com (Amba Kulkarni) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 00:16:05 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news In-Reply-To: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> References: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> Message-ID: A great scholar indeed. Very rarely we come across such Great Scholars deeply rooted in the traditional Knowledge systems at the same time very much conversant with modern technology. I have seen his software on Sh?bdabodha in 1993 (or maybe in 1994), during a conference organised by him. This software would generate the shaabdabodha for a given Sanskrit sentence. He was very open-minded and of helping nature. When I approached him in 2002-03 informing him about my plan to work on Sanskrit computational linguistics, he immediately provided me with his word generation software and asked his technical staff to provide me all the necessary help so that I could install it on my machine. Thus under the contributor's list , of Samsaadhanii, the Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote goes at the top. It is a great loss to the field of Sanskrit Studies. -- Amba On Sat, 15 May 2021 at 23:32, huet wrote: > Dear Indology list, > > I was sorry to learn today of the sad demise of Pr. Laksmi Thathachar > , > former Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote. > As an early investigator of computerized ?abdabodha, he was a founding > father of Sanskrit computational linguistics. > G?rard Huet > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- ? ?? ?????: ?????? ????? ??????: ll Let noble thoughts come to us from every side. - Rig Veda, I-89-i. Professor Department of Sanskrit Studies University of Hyderabad Prof. C.R. Rao Road Hyderabad-500 046 (91) 040 23133802(off) http://scl.samsaadhanii.in http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl http://tdil-dc.in/san/ http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sat May 15 19:08:51 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 13:08:51 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news In-Reply-To: References: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> Message-ID: Like so many, my life was also touched by Pt. Lakshimtatacharya. He was an immensely gracious as a host when I visited him at his institute in Melkote in the early 90s. He showed me the plants that grew in their garden, and he had great knowledge of them and their properties. With characteristic wry humour, he showed me a plant that Brahmanas could eat to get the taste of garlic, that wasn't actually garlic. The meal he shared with me later that day was deliberately pre-colonial. No tomatoes, chillies, potatoes, etc. Coconut and rice, etc. He was fully conscious of how food habits in India had changed after trade with the New World began in the sixteenth century. My first encounter with him was in Bangalore in about 1994, when we both attended a talk about libraries and manuscripts. After a speaker gave a somewhat inflated talk, starting with manuscripts and ending with samadhi and cosmic consciousness, a tall, imposing and very orthodox-looking Brahmana rose in the audience and said, "yes, it may well be as you say. But how are you able to distinguish what you have just described from a random, subjective neurological event?" My jaw fell open :-) It was obviously friendship from that moment on. I am indeed sorry Pt. Lakshmitatatacharya, a genuinely unique person, has passed from our lives. Thank you for that very nice photo, G?rard. Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Sat May 15 20:18:23 2021 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 16:18:23 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news In-Reply-To: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> References: <5BDF2005-2939-4F57-B155-75DB580FE424@inria.fr> Message-ID: Saddened to hear the news of Prof. Lakshmi Thathachar's passing. Lavanya On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 2:01 PM huet wrote: > Dear Indology list, > > I was sorry to learn today of the sad demise of Pr. Laksmi Thathachar > , > former Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote. > As an early investigator of computerized ?abdabodha, he was a founding > father of Sanskrit computational linguistics. > G?rard Huet > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- *Dr. Lavanya Vemsani* Ph.D. History (Univ. of Hyderabad) & Ph.D. Religious Studies (McMaster Univ.) Distinguished University Professor of History, Department of Social Sciences *Shawnee State University* Portsmouth OH 45662 V:7403513233 F:7403513153 E:lvemsani at shawnee.edu Editor, *American Journal of Indic Studies* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnrobert.gardner at gmail.com Sun May 16 00:56:37 2021 From: johnrobert.gardner at gmail.com (JR) Date: Sat, 15 May 2021 20:56:37 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sad news In-Reply-To: <6F69F4F4-E740-47AA-8CA9-C3491FC906BD@berkeley.edu> References: <6F69F4F4-E740-47AA-8CA9-C3491FC906BD@berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <7AC4C6DE-1FDD-4628-8FD2-090766B25A67@gmail.com> A highlight of my time in India after the WS conference in 1997 was an invitation to Melkote. He and his team were wonderful and gracious hosts. I echo Dominik?s comments regarding the meals. It was a very meaningful week. His personal concern for me and support of my work making Vedic texts available for free on the Internet was both inspiring and touching. JR Gardner, Ph.D., NREMT-P, I/C > On May 15, 2021, at 14:18, Robert Goldman wrote: > > ?Very sad news indeed. I had visited with him in Melkote back in 1992 and was deeply impressed with his learning and helpfulness. He will be sorely missed. > Dr. R. P. Goldman > Catherine and William L. Magistretti Distinguished Professor in South and Southeast Asian Studies > Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies MC # 2540 > The University of California at Berkeley > Berkeley, CA 94720-2540 > Tel: 510-642-4089 > Fax: 510-642-2409 > >> On May 15, 2021, at 11:00 AM, huet wrote: >> >> Dear Indology list, >> >> I was sorry to learn today of the sad demise of Pr. Laksmi Thathachar, former Director of the Academy of Sanskrit Research in Melkote. >> As an early investigator of computerized ?abdabodha, he was a founding father of Sanskrit computational linguistics. >> G?rard Huet >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Lakshmitatachar.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 169509 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jm63 at soas.ac.uk Sun May 16 15:40:42 2021 From: jm63 at soas.ac.uk (James Mallinson) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 16:40:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: <1621055121.S.51016.autosave.drafts.1621055272.7167@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Many thanks to all those who replied to me, on and off the list, with their valuable suggestions. Having been altogether unable to make sense of the simile I now find myself with a surfeit of possible solutions. In particular I thank Andrea Acri for reminding me that I myself have written about ku?cik?s. Chasing up that lead led me to a half-verse in the Khecar?vidy? (2.105ab) in which udgh??ya refers to removing an argala or ?bolt?: udgh??y?rgalam ?k??e jihv?m ?rdhva? pras?rayet | I find a similar usage in the Ha?hasa?ketacandrik?. Because of these usages, and the suggestions from colleagues that udgh??ayet and vibhedayet might have subtly different meanings in the Vivekam?rta??a verse, I now suspect that udgh??ayet is being used in the sense of ?unlock?. And that ha?h?t, as some colleagues suggested, gives a sense of certainty or inevitability. (By the way, I should have noted that the Vivekam?rta??a does not call its yoga ha?ha, so it is unlikely that there is any connotation of a particular type of yoga in ha?h?t.) My latest translation of the verse is: ?In the same way that by means of a key one may be sure to unlock a door, by means of Ku??alin? the yogi may [be sure to] break open the doorway to liberation ? But I feel a long footnote coming on. To help with that, would any colleagues be able to point me towards a pdf of the book by von Hin?ber that Sven Sellmer kindly mentioned (or provide just the relevant pages)? Here are the details again: Oskar v. Hin?ber: Sprachentwicklung und Kulturgeschichte. Ein Beitrag zur materiellen Kultur des buddhistischen Klosterwesens. Stuttgart: Steiner (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Geistes- und Sozialwiss. Klasse. Jg. 1992, Nr. 6)., esp. pp. 14??24, 30??34. All the best, Jim > On 15 May 2021, at 14:37, Ananya Vajpeyi wrote: > > Jim, picking up from Prof. Kapstein and Andrea Acri, I am reminded that in Hindi, the "key" or "Cliff Notes" that people use to study for exams here in India is called a ku?j?. Basically, with the right ku?j?, you can "crack" an entrance exam. I realize that the door-key-opening-breaking through metaphor is continuing here, from ku??alin? yoga to the IIT qualifying test, which yields its own version of mok?a for the successful candidates. And certainly getting through such ordeals to breach the portals of these vaunted institutions -- engineering / medical / architecture / management / law colleges -- requires a certain ha?ha, determination, force, effort, discipline, rigour, zor-zabardast?! > > I see you don't really need our help, except as a form of "time-pass" in this unending lockdown... > > Yours, > > AV. > > > On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM alakendu das via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Dr.Mallimson, > I find "Kunchika" may be loosely translated as "Ripper" i.e a tool to rip open something. > > Alakendu Das. > > Sent from RediffmailNG on Android > > > > > From: James Mallinson > > Sent: Sat, 15 May 2021 02:14:28 GMT+0530 > To: Indology > > Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile > > Dear colleagues, > > I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: > > udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | > ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || > > My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. > > All the best, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > -- > Ananya Vajpeyi > https://www.csds.in/ananya_vajpeyi > http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/people/profile/ananya-vajpeyi > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jm63 at soas.ac.uk Sun May 16 17:00:24 2021 From: jm63 at soas.ac.uk (James Mallinson) Date: Sun, 16 May 2021 18:00:24 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: <1621055121.S.51016.autosave.drafts.1621055272.7167@webmail.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: <6B119637-814A-4160-A764-FA0598927205@soas.ac.uk> Many thanks indeed to Jonathan Silk from whom I have received the needful. All the best, Jim > On 16 May 2021, at 16:40, James Mallinson wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > Many thanks to all those who replied to me, on and off the list, with their valuable suggestions. Having been altogether unable to make sense of the simile I now find myself with a surfeit of possible solutions. > > In particular I thank Andrea Acri for reminding me that I myself have written about ku?cik?s. Chasing up that lead led me to a half-verse in the Khecar?vidy? (2.105ab) in which udgh??ya refers to removing an argala or ?bolt?: > > udgh??y?rgalam ?k??e jihv?m ?rdhva? pras?rayet | > > I find a similar usage in the Ha?hasa?ketacandrik?. Because of these usages, and the suggestions from colleagues that udgh??ayet and vibhedayet might have subtly different meanings in the Vivekam?rta??a verse, I now suspect that udgh??ayet is being used in the sense of ?unlock?. And that ha?h?t, as some colleagues suggested, gives a sense of certainty or inevitability. (By the way, I should have noted that the Vivekam?rta??a does not call its yoga ha?ha, so it is unlikely that there is any connotation of a particular type of yoga in ha?h?t.) > > My latest translation of the verse is: ?In the same way that by means of a key one may be sure to unlock a door, by means of Ku??alin? the yogi may [be sure to] break open the doorway to liberation ? > > But I feel a long footnote coming on. To help with that, would any colleagues be able to point me towards a pdf of the book by von Hin?ber that Sven Sellmer kindly mentioned (or provide just the relevant pages)? Here are the details again: > > Oskar v. Hin?ber: Sprachentwicklung und Kulturgeschichte. Ein Beitrag zur materiellen Kultur des buddhistischen Klosterwesens. Stuttgart: Steiner (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Geistes- und Sozialwiss. Klasse. Jg. 1992, Nr. 6)., esp. pp. 14??24, 30??34. > > All the best, > > Jim > >> On 15 May 2021, at 14:37, Ananya Vajpeyi > wrote: >> >> Jim, picking up from Prof. Kapstein and Andrea Acri, I am reminded that in Hindi, the "key" or "Cliff Notes" that people use to study for exams here in India is called a ku?j?. Basically, with the right ku?j?, you can "crack" an entrance exam. I realize that the door-key-opening-breaking through metaphor is continuing here, from ku??alin? yoga to the IIT qualifying test, which yields its own version of mok?a for the successful candidates. And certainly getting through such ordeals to breach the portals of these vaunted institutions -- engineering / medical / architecture / management / law colleges -- requires a certain ha?ha, determination, force, effort, discipline, rigour, zor-zabardast?! >> >> I see you don't really need our help, except as a form of "time-pass" in this unending lockdown... >> >> Yours, >> >> AV. >> >> >> On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM alakendu das via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> Dr.Mallimson, >> I find "Kunchika" may be loosely translated as "Ripper" i.e a tool to rip open something. >> >> Alakendu Das. >> >> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android >> >> >> >> >> From: James Mallinson > >> Sent: Sat, 15 May 2021 02:14:28 GMT+0530 >> To: Indology > >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a ha?hayoga text I?m editing, the Vivekam?rta??a. Verse 34 reads: >> >> udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | >> ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || >> >> My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use a ku?cik? to force open a kap??a.? I had been translating ku?cik? as ?key? and kap??a as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this ku?cik? and kap??a might be. I am aware that a kap??a is usually a double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the ku?cik?? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather sloppy simile. >> >> All the best, >> >> Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> -- >> Ananya Vajpeyi >> https://www.csds.in/ananya_vajpeyi >> http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/people/profile/ananya-vajpeyi >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From d.wujastyk at gmail.com Mon May 17 16:58:50 2021 From: d.wujastyk at gmail.com (Dagmar Wujastyk) Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 10:58:50 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Launch_of_Rasa=C5=9B=C4=81stra=3A_A_timelin?= =?utf-8?q?e_of_Sanskrit_alchemical_literature?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Please join us on Thursday, May 27, at 11am MDT (6pm UTC+1), for the launch of the AyurYog project's interactive timeline of Sanskrit alchemical literature. I've attached the poster with the details for registration fyi. The event is public and free, but we ask that you register on eventbrite at https://www.eventbrite.com/e/ayuryog-alchemy-timeline-launch-tickets-154870298231?aff=ebdsoporgprofile With best wishes, Dagmar Wujastyk Dagmar Wujasyk Associate Professor Department of History and Classics, and Religion University of Alberta www.ayuryog.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: timeline poster.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 2915054 bytes Desc: not available URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed May 19 01:56:11 2021 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 10:56:11 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?bWFsbGFnaGHhua3Eqw==?= Message-ID: Dear Friends, MW lists \textbf{mallagha??} f. a kind of pantomime as mentioned in the Vikram?rva??yam. Does an e-text exist? It does not appear on GRETIL. I have downloaded a pdf of the Sanskrit from archive, though I have no idea where this term is mentioned. Does someone more familiar with this play know its location? I don't know much about this play. Do I correctly presume it is a pantomime of wrestling? Thank you. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap Yogascapes in Japan Academia Linkedin Modern Yoga Research *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Wed May 19 03:30:58 2021 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:30:58 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?bWFsbGFnaGHhua3Eqw==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, You will find it on p. 75 of H. D. Velankar's edition ( https://www.dropbox.com/s/wo9fbo3umeymv7g/k%C4%81lid%C4%81sa-vikramorva%C5%9B%C4%ABya-ed_velankar.pdf?dl=0). It occurs as a stage direction. Velankar discusses this term, along with the other curious and/or textually problematic aspects of the fourth act of the play (where this term occurs), on p. lxxxvi of his introduction: ? *mallagha??* involved the use of earthen pitchers (like the Garb? in Gujar?t).? Andrew On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:57 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > MW lists > > \textbf{mallagha??} f. a kind of pantomime > > as mentioned in the Vikram?rva??yam. > > Does an e-text exist? It does not appear on GRETIL. > > I have downloaded a pdf of the Sanskrit from archive, though I have no > idea where this term is mentioned. Does someone more familiar with this > play know its location? > > I don't know much about this play. Do I correctly presume it is a > pantomime of wrestling? > > Thank you. > > All the best, > > ????? ??????? > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development > (OICD), Kyoto > Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, > Japan > Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian > National University > Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National > University > > Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 > Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap > Yogascapes in Japan Academia > Linkedin > > Modern Yoga Research > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From diegoloukota at ucla.edu Wed May 19 03:41:07 2021 From: diegoloukota at ucla.edu (DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE) Date: Tue, 18 May 2021 22:41:07 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?bWFsbGFnaGHhua3Eqw==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Patrick, The term occurs in act four (4.95), p. 152 in the Shulman/Rao edition+translation for the Clay Sanskrit Library. Mallagha?? is given only as a scenic indication on how a verse is to be performed, perhaps involving specific modes of song, dance, or pantomime. Lyne Bansat-Boudon in p. 97 of her *The?tres indiens* notes that the commentator Ra?gan?tha says only that *mallagha??* is a "specific mode of theatrical technique" ("*vari?t? de n??ya*"=*n??yavi?e?a*). This is MW's source. In his preface to his 1961 critical edition of the play, H.D. Velankar conjectures, on the basis of the etymology, that the "*mallagha??* involved the use of earthen pitchers (like the Garb? [dance] in Gujar?t)" (p. lxxxvi). However, I find it unlikely that an "earthen pitcher" would have been conjured up to perform a single *p?da*, and would be more inclined to see it simply as a gesture. I hope this helps! *namaskaromi*, Diego On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 10:31 PM Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Patrick, > > You will find it on p. 75 of H. D. Velankar's edition ( > https://www.dropbox.com/s/wo9fbo3umeymv7g/k%C4%81lid%C4%81sa-vikramorva%C5%9B%C4%ABya-ed_velankar.pdf?dl=0). > It occurs as a stage direction. Velankar discusses this term, along with > the other curious and/or textually problematic aspects of the fourth act of > the play (where this term occurs), on p. lxxxvi of his introduction: ? > *mallagha??* involved the use of earthen pitchers (like the Garb? in > Gujar?t).? > > Andrew > > On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 8:57 PM patrick mccartney via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Friends, >> >> MW lists >> >> \textbf{mallagha??} f. a kind of pantomime >> >> as mentioned in the Vikram?rva??yam. >> >> Does an e-text exist? It does not appear on GRETIL. >> >> I have downloaded a pdf of the Sanskrit from archive, though I have no >> idea where this term is mentioned. Does someone more familiar with this >> play know its location? >> >> I don't know much about this play. Do I correctly presume it is a >> pantomime of wrestling? >> >> Thank you. >> >> All the best, >> >> ????? ??????? >> Patrick McCartney, PhD >> Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development >> (OICD), Kyoto >> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, >> Japan >> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian >> National University >> Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National >> University >> >> Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney >> Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 >> Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap >> Yogascapes in Japan Academia >> Linkedin >> >> Modern Yoga Research >> >> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Wed May 19 05:40:10 2021 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 14:40:10 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?bWFsbGFnaGHhua3Eqw==?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Big thanks to everyone who responded to my query about mallagha??. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap Yogascapes in Japan Academia Linkedin Modern Yoga Research *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) - On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 10:56 AM patrick mccartney wrote: > Dear Friends, > > MW lists > > \textbf{mallagha??} f. a kind of pantomime > > as mentioned in the Vikram?rva??yam. > > Does an e-text exist? It does not appear on GRETIL. > > I have downloaded a pdf of the Sanskrit from archive, though I have no > idea where this term is mentioned. Does someone more familiar with this > play know its location? > > I don't know much about this play. Do I correctly presume it is a > pantomime of wrestling? > > Thank you. > > All the best, > > ????? ??????? > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development > (OICD), Kyoto > Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, > Japan > Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian > National University > Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National > University > > Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 > Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap > Yogascapes in Japan Academia > Linkedin > > Modern Yoga Research > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Wed May 19 16:14:20 2021 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 16:14:20 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Veda in Kashmir released Message-ID: <3C92600D-4843-4168-BD3A-BBA60E7D639B@fas.harvard.edu> Dear Indologists, it gives me great pleasure to announce, at long last, the publication of my book ?The Veda in Kashmir?. It deals with the history and present situation of Vedic tradition in this western Himalayan region. The Veda in Kashmir, vol. I & II, Harvard Oriental Series vol. 94 & 95, pp. 1466, including 2 DVDs with recitations, films, scans of related manuscripts, etc. ISBN 9780674 984370 ISBN 9780674 257771 $120. With my best wishes, Michael Witzel From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed May 19 16:31:28 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 09:31:28 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Veda in Kashmir released In-Reply-To: <3C92600D-4843-4168-BD3A-BBA60E7D639B@fas.harvard.edu> References: <3C92600D-4843-4168-BD3A-BBA60E7D639B@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: Congratulations, Michael, for this wonderful contribution. I could not wait. I have already placed an order for these volumes. Best wishes, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 9:14 AM Witzel, Michael wrote: > Dear Indologists, > > it gives me great pleasure to announce, at long last, the publication of > my book ?The Veda in Kashmir?. > It deals with the history and present situation of Vedic tradition in this > western Himalayan region. > > The Veda in Kashmir, vol. I & II, > Harvard Oriental Series vol. 94 & 95, > pp. 1466, including 2 DVDs with recitations, films, scans of related > manuscripts, etc. > > ISBN 9780674 984370 > ISBN 9780674 257771 > $120. > > > With my best wishes, > Michael Witzel > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jreich at pace.edu Wed May 19 19:40:54 2021 From: jreich at pace.edu (Reich, James David) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 19:40:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] book announcement Message-ID: Dear colleagues, With apologies for self-promotion, I would like to announce the publication of my first book, To Savor the Meaning (Oxford University Press). To Savor the Meaning examines the overlap of literary theory and religious philosophy in 9th-11th century Kashmir by looking at debates about how poetry communicates emotions to its readers, what it is readers do when they savor these emotions, and why this might be valuable. It focuses on the work of three influential figures-Anandavardhana [ca. 850 AD], Abhinavagupta [ca. 1000 AD], and the somewhat lesser known theorist Mahimabha??a [ca. 1050 AD]-placing them within the wider context of the religious philosophies current in Kashmir at the time, and showing that their ideas cannot be fully understood in isolation from this broader context. https://global.oup.com/academic/product/to-savor-the-meaning-9780197544839?cc=us&lang=en& I hope the book will be interesting and useful in its own way to some. Thank you, James? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyler.g.neill at gmail.com Wed May 19 20:35:32 2021 From: tyler.g.neill at gmail.com (Tyler Neill) Date: Wed, 19 May 2021 16:35:32 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?hack_for_searching_Apte_1957=E2=80=9359_=28?= =?utf-8?q?Rev=2E_and_Exp=2E=29_online_in_IAST?= Message-ID: Dear all, I thought I would share this online dictionary hack I implemented today. If you enter this URL... skrutable.pythonanywhere.com/ChicagoApteIAST?query=r?m ...in your browser, with your query in place of "r?m" at the end there, you can search Chicago's version of Apte Practical Sanskrit Dictionary 1957?59 (Revised and Expanded) by typing in IAST. I personally like to use this in combination with Chrome's "custom search engine" functionality, for example. Gory details: The reason I had to implement this is that both the Cologne and Chicago dictionary websites have recently made changes that, as far as I can tell, make it more difficult to search this edition of Apte, which I like for its additional references, and to do so comfortably in IAST. The Cologne site seems to have simply stopped supporting this edition in its "simple-search" interface (where it was formerly abbreviated "AP") and instead now relies on the older 1890 edition ("AP90"). On the other hand, the Chicago site has stopped respecting Roman diacritics, making precise searching possible only in Devanagari. For this reason, the "skrutable" link provided above takes care of transliterating from IAST to Devanagari and then redirects to the Chicago site (along with "headword only" and "starts with" search options). I still prefer Chicago over Cologne for Apte because, among other reasons, the Cologne website design makes direct URL queries difficult unless without the outer frame like this ? note Apte 1957?59 still available there ? and because it doesn't support "starts with"-style output, instead privileging manual choice of full lemmata from the search bar autocomplete dropdown. If anyone else understands the situation differently, I'd be keen to know. Also please let me know if you're interested in seeing this work differently somehow. Kind regards, Tyler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dominik at haas.asia Thu May 20 06:11:40 2021 From: dominik at haas.asia (Dominik Haas) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 08:11:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?xZppdmFkaGFybWFtYWjEgcWbxIFzdHJhIHwgUERG?= Message-ID: <9af86284-bcda-c91e-ac96-80c9b0d5dc2a@haas.asia> Dear colleagues, does anyone happen to have a PDF of the following work?: *Pa?upatimatam: ?ivadharmamah???stram, P?supatin?thadar?anam. Ed. Y. Naraharinath. Kathmandu: B?had?dhy?tmikaparishada?, 1998. ** *** Best regards and thank you for your time, D Haas __________________ *Dominik A. Haas, BA MA* DOC Fellow, Austrian Academy of Sciences | PhD Candidate, University of Vienna dominik at haas.asia | ORCID 0000-0002-8505-6112 follow my work on univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstra?e 11?13, 1020 Vienna, Austria oeaw.ac.at/ikga 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 12) July 22?24, 2021, Vienna, Austria iigrs.wordpress.com iigrsuk at googlemail.com The Initiative for Fair Open Access Publishing in South Asian Studies | foasas.org contact at foasas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oawlogo.png Type: image/png Size: 2449 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iigrs_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 2565 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: foasaslogosmall.png Type: image/png Size: 57488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com Thu May 20 06:41:41 2021 From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das) Date: 20 May 2021 06:41:41 -0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?Veda_in_Kashmir_released?= Message-ID: <1621492142.S.4015.autosave.drafts.1621492901.5772@webmail.rediffmail.com> Dr.Witzel Thanking you in advance for your new book, can you kindly let me know whether any PDF version of the book exists, or whether I can access the book online.(in these pandemic and stay-home times, online studies are in full swing)Iam looking forward to going through your book, which , I believe , would be a highly enlightening one. Regards. Alakendu Das. Sent from RediffmailNG on Android From: "Witzel, Michael" <witzel at fas.harvard.edu> Sent: Wed, 19 May 2021 21:44:36 GMT+0530 To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>, Informationsaustausch der deutschsprachigen Indologie <INDOLOGIE at LISTSERV.UNI-HEIDELBERG.DE> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Veda in Kashmir released Dear Indologists, it gives me great pleasure to announce, at long last, the publication of my book ?The Veda in Kashmir?. It deals with the history and present situation of Vedic tradition in this western Himalayan region. The Veda in Kashmir, vol. I & II,   Harvard Oriental Series vol. 94 & 95, pp. 1466, including 2 DVDs with recitations, films, scans of related manuscripts, etc. ISBN 9780674 984370 ISBN 9780674 257771 $120. With my best wishes, Michael Witzel _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk Thu May 20 10:35:05 2021 From: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk (Rupert Gethin) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:35:05 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Journal of the Pali Text Society volume 34 In-Reply-To: <7AC4C6DE-1FDD-4628-8FD2-090766B25A67@gmail.com> References: <6F69F4F4-E740-47AA-8CA9-C3491FC906BD@berkeley.edu> <7AC4C6DE-1FDD-4628-8FD2-090766B25A67@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76151351-8091-4AAC-973E-8331595E5240@bristol.ac.uk> Dear Colleagues Volume 34 of the Journal of the Pali Text Society has recently been published. CONTENTS 1. Steven Collins, 1951?2018 (Rupert Gethin), 1?10 2. Dr phil. Ole Holten Pind, 1945?2018 (J?rgen Podemann S?rensen), 11?18 3. Abhidhamma Studies IV: The Saccasan?khepa and Its Commentaries (L.S. Cousins?), 19?68 4. Writing Pali Texts in 16th century Lan Na (Northern Thailand): The Life and Work of Siriman?gala (Part I) (Gregory Kourilsky), 69?124 5. Pali ekakkharas Revisited (Javier Schnake), 125?49 6. Theraga?tha? 168 (Martin Straube), 151?54 7. The Pa?li Tipit?aka Recension Carved on the Kuthodaw Pagoda Stelae and Its Relation to Other Burmese Versions (Royce Wiles, Chris Clark, Tamara Ditrich, Mark Allon), 155-226 8. Boundaries and Domains : Understanding Optionality in Buddhappiya?s Ru?pasiddhi (Aleix Ruiz-Falque?s), 227?50 9. Na?madha?tusu?ci? : An Annotated Index of Denominative Verbs in Pa?li (Timothy P. Lighthiser), 251?311 10. Pali manta? and mantabha?n?in (Martin Straube), 313?30 Copies of this and previous issues of the Journal may be ordered by emailing the Pali Text Society >. PDFs of volumes 1?30 are available for free download from http://www.palitext.com/ (publications > Journal of the Pali Text Society); PDFs of volumes 31?33 will be made available shortly when the new PTS website is launched. With best wishes, Rupert Gethin Professor of Buddhist Studies University of Bristol Department of Religion and Theology 3 Woodland Road Bristol BS8 1TB, UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dominik at haas.asia Thu May 20 17:33:42 2021 From: dominik at haas.asia (Dominik A. Haas) Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 19:33:42 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?xZppdmFkaGFybWFtYWjEgcWbxIFzdHJhIHwgUERG?= In-Reply-To: <9af86284-bcda-c91e-ac96-80c9b0d5dc2a@haas.asia> References: <9af86284-bcda-c91e-ac96-80c9b0d5dc2a@haas.asia> Message-ID: Thanks to Nina Mirnig, Timothy Lubin and Kenji Takahashi for helping me out! Best regards, D Haas Am 20.05.2021 um 08:11 schrieb Dominik Haas: > > > Dear colleagues, > > does anyone happen to have a PDF of the following work?: > > *Pa?upatimatam: ?ivadharmamah???stram, P?supatin?thadar?anam. Ed. Y. > Naraharinath. Kathmandu: B?had?dhy?tmikaparishada?, 1998. ** > *** > Best regards and thank you for your time, > D Haas > > > > > __________________ > *Dominik A. Haas, BA MA* > DOC Fellow, Austrian Academy of Sciences | PhD Candidate, University > of Vienna > dominik at haas.asia | ORCID > 0000-0002-8505-6112 > > follow my work on univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas > > > > Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia > Austrian Academy of Sciences > Hollandstra?e 11?13, 1020 Vienna, Austria > oeaw.ac.at/ikga > > > 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 12) > July 22?24, 2021, Vienna, Austria > iigrs.wordpress.com > iigrsuk at googlemail.com > > > The Initiative for Fair Open Access Publishing in South Asian Studies > | foasas.org > contact at foasas.org > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oawlogo.png Type: image/png Size: 2449 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iigrs_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 2565 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: foasaslogosmall.png Type: image/png Size: 57488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Fri May 21 00:25:15 2021 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 00:25:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [INDOLOGY] Veda in Kashmir released In-Reply-To: <3C92600D-4843-4168-BD3A-BBA60E7D639B@fas.harvard.edu> References: <3C92600D-4843-4168-BD3A-BBA60E7D639B@fas.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <1263938280.99777.1621556715436@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the heads-up, Michael. I look forward to reading it. Will there be a South Asian printing? Best, Dean On Wednesday, May 19, 2021, 9:44:38 PM GMT+5:30, Witzel, Michael wrote: Dear Indologists, it gives me great pleasure to announce, at long last, the publication of my book ?The Veda in Kashmir?. It deals with the history and present situation of Vedic tradition in this western Himalayan region. The Veda in Kashmir, vol. I & II,? Harvard Oriental Series vol. 94 & 95, pp. 1466, including 2 DVDs with recitations, films, scans of related manuscripts, etc. ISBN 9780674 984370 ISBN 9780674 257771 $120. With my best wishes, Michael Witzel _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From birendra176 at yahoo.com Fri May 21 09:44:36 2021 From: birendra176 at yahoo.com (Birendra Nath Prasad) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 09:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for PDF copies of some papers References: <176258609.2706300.1621590276935.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <176258609.2706300.1621590276935@mail.yahoo.com> Respected colleagues, I am looking for the PDF copies of the following papers: 1. Verardi, G. ?Images of Destruction, An Enquiry into Hindu Icons in their Relations to Buddhism?, in G.Verardi and S. Vita (eds),. Buddhist Asia 1: Papers from the First Conference of Buddhist Studies Held in Naples in May 2001, Kyoto: Italian School of Eastern Asian Studies, Kyoto, 2003: 1-36. 2. Verardi, G. 2007. The Archaeological Perspective in Afghanistan?. In G. Picco et al (ed.), Afghanistan: How Much of the Past in New Future, pp. 221-52 3. Verardi, G. 1996. ?Religions, Rituals, and the Heaviness of Indian History?, Annali dell?Istituto Orientale di Napoli 56, Napoli,: 215-53. Kindly oblige. With thanks and regards Dr. Birendra Nath Prasad Asstt. Professor Centre for Historical Studies Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi Email: birendra176 at yahoo.com Web: https://jnu.ac.in/node/5933 From heinzwerner.wessler at lingfil.uu.se Fri May 21 15:19:15 2021 From: heinzwerner.wessler at lingfil.uu.se (Heinz Werner Wessler) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 15:19:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] post doc positions in Uppsala Message-ID: <3fa56e6848fc40039f78fcfd484afc9b@lingfil.uu.se> For information: The following postdoc positions are open for indologists to apply: https://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/join-us/details/?positionId=400800&fbclid=IwAR0O76edk-T7VJgVLtQLCAUNbghyCLm0l5yeBl_suQuQQYO7dwcDOKa6Jv0 Postdoctoral positions at the Department of Linguistics and Philology - Uppsala University, Sweden www.uu.se Postdoctoral positions at the Department of Linguistics and Philology, Department of Linguistics and Philology, Uppsala University -- Heinz Werner Wessler Institute for Linguistics and Philology Box 635 SE-75126 Uppsala +46-18-4717015 http://katalog.uu.se/empinfo/?id=N9-852 www.lingfil.uu.se N?r du har kontakt med oss p? Uppsala universitet med e-post s? inneb?r det att vi behandlar dina personuppgifter. F?r att l?sa mer om hur vi g?r det kan du l?sa h?r: http://www.uu.se/om-uu/dataskydd-personuppgifter/ E-mailing Uppsala University means that we will process your personal data. For more information on how this is performed, please read here: http://www.uu.se/en/about-uu/data-protection-policy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From V.Sasson at marianopolis.edu Fri May 21 22:13:09 2021 From: V.Sasson at marianopolis.edu (Vanessa Sasson) Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 22:13:09 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] a question about burial rites Message-ID: <4c2cb46ea68f4b27a1c96a65389c7f44@marianopolis.edu> Dear colleagues, I am looking for evidence of burial practices in Ancient India - especially for those whose corpses might be deemed too polluting or dangerous (due to sickness). Parry describes immersing those who died of Smallpox instead of cremation (because Sitala inhabits the body). But is there any evidence of whole bodies (in other words, uncremated bodies) being buried instead? Looking forward to hearing your answers. Best wishes, Vanessa R. Sasson Religious Studies Marianopolis College -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gasyoun at ya.ru Sun May 23 08:46:35 2021 From: gasyoun at ya.ru (=?utf-8?B?TcSBcmNpcyBHYXPFq25z?=) Date: Sun, 23 May 2021 11:46:35 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Talk: The Blue Lotuses of Sanskrit Lexicography Message-ID: <279661621759522@mail.yandex.ru> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cezarygalewicz at yahoo.com Wed May 26 05:29:00 2021 From: cezarygalewicz at yahoo.com (cezarygalewicz at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 07:29:00 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Two short-termed Postdoc positions in South Asia studies deadline 30 June 2021 References: Message-ID: Dear List Members, This is to announce two short-termed Postdoc positions in South Asian studies in a project titled:?Cultures of Patronage: script, print and performance in the making of regional and imperial spaces of communication and knowledge circulation across India 1674-1890. Deadline for submission: June 30, 2021. Please refer to: 1. https://praca.bip.uj.edu.pl/documents/145868730/147887516/1Patronage_Konkurs+na+stanowisko+Adiunkta+bad_Ang_I_NEW.pdf/a50215ef-bc2c-4a81-8ed3-9722c45543d2 2. https://praca.bip.uj.edu.pl/documents/145868730/147887516/1Patronage_Konkurs+na+stanowisko+Adiunkta+bad_Ang_I_NEW.pdf/a50215ef-bc2c-4a81-8ed3-9722c45543d2 Cezary Galewicz Cezary Galewicz Professor of Indian Civilisation Jagiellonian University Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilisations ul. Grodzka 52 31-044 Krakow, Poland https://psc.uj.edu.pl/en_GB/about/staff/cezary-galewicz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evadeclercq at hotmail.com Wed May 26 10:52:10 2021 From: evadeclercq at hotmail.com (eva de clercq) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 10:52:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padmanabh S. Jaini Message-ID: Dear all, Some colleagues in India brought to our attention that Padmanabh S. Jaini, one of the greatest scholars of Jainism (and Buddhism), and professor at Berkeley, has passed away at the age of 97. For an article on the publication of his memoirs: https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/a-world-of-learning-the-journey-of-padmanabh-jaini/cid/1686901 [https://assets.telegraphindia.com/telegraph/4706111b-4121-4774-82a1-509a3c8fc058.jpg] A world of learning: the journey of Padmanabh Jaini - Telegraph India In 1998, while teaching at the University of California at Berkeley, I befriended a scholar much older and far more learned than I. This was Padmanabh Jaini, a great authority on Buddhism and Jainism, with a profound knowledge of texts in half a dozen languages. www.telegraphindia.com With kind regards, Eva Eva De Clercq Ghent University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com Wed May 26 11:44:14 2021 From: dharmaprof108 at yahoo.com (Jeffery Long) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 11:44:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padmanabh S. Jaini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1958206100.182392.1622029454662@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Eva, This is devastating news. I appreciate your sharing it.? In sorrow,Jeffery Dr. Jeffery D. LongCarl W. Ziegler Professor of Religion & Philosophy?Professor of Asian StudiesElizabethtown College Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 6:52 AM, eva de clercq via INDOLOGY wrote: #yiv2665536733 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}Dear all, Some colleagues in India brought to our attention that Padmanabh S. Jaini, one of the greatest scholars of Jainism (and Buddhism), and professor at Berkeley, has passed away at the age of 97. For an article on the publication of his memoirs: https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/a-world-of-learning-the-journey-of-padmanabh-jaini/cid/1686901 | | A world of learning: the journey of Padmanabh Jaini - Telegraph IndiaIn 1998, while teaching at the University of California at Berkeley, I befriended a scholar much older and far more learned than I. This was Padmanabh Jaini, a great authority on Buddhism and Jainism, with a profound knowledge of texts in half a dozen languages.www.telegraphindia.com | With kind regards, Eva Eva De ClercqGhent University _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Wed May 26 12:03:13 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 12:03:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padmanabh S. Jaini In-Reply-To: <1958206100.182392.1622029454662@mail.yahoo.com> References: , <1958206100.182392.1622029454662@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am very sorry to learn of Professor Jaini's passing. Besides his remarkable learning, his unmatched mastery of the several fields of scholarship to which he profusely contributed, we was a kind and generous mentor and friend, graced with good humor and great warmth. He will be dearly missed. Matthew Matthew Kapstein Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies, The University of Chicago ________________________________ From: INDOLOGY on behalf of Jeffery Long via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 6:44 AM To: eva de clercq ; Indology ; risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Padmanabh S. Jaini Dear Eva, This is devastating news. I appreciate your sharing it. In sorrow, Jeffery Dr. Jeffery D. Long Carl W. Ziegler Professor of Religion & Philosophy Professor of Asian Studies Elizabethtown College Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 6:52 AM, eva de clercq via INDOLOGY wrote: Dear all, Some colleagues in India brought to our attention that Padmanabh S. Jaini, one of the greatest scholars of Jainism (and Buddhism), and professor at Berkeley, has passed away at the age of 97. For an article on the publication of his memoirs: https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/a-world-of-learning-the-journey-of-padmanabh-jaini/cid/1686901 [https://assets.telegraphindia.com/telegraph/4706111b-4121-4774-82a1-509a3c8fc058.jpg] A world of learning: the journey of Padmanabh Jaini - Telegraph India In 1998, while teaching at the University of California at Berkeley, I befriended a scholar much older and far more learned than I. This was Padmanabh Jaini, a great authority on Buddhism and Jainism, with a profound knowledge of texts in half a dozen languages. www.telegraphindia.com With kind regards, Eva Eva De Clercq Ghent University _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Wed May 26 12:24:53 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 05:24:53 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padmanabh S. Jaini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sad news indeed. The last I saw Professor Jaini was at Berkeley during the celebration of his 95th birthday. When Jaini left Michigan for Berkeley in 1972, I was his replacement at Michigan. I did not know much about Michigan before accepting the job offer. However, before coming to Michigan, I met Professor Jaini at the Pune train station where he was between trains, and he described to me the University of Michigan in some detail, making me feel at ease. He was a great scholar with a wonderful sense of humor and kindness. Will miss him. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:52 AM eva de clercq via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear all, > > Some colleagues in India brought to our attention that Padmanabh S. Jaini, > one of the greatest scholars of Jainism (and Buddhism), and professor at > Berkeley, has passed away at the age of 97. > For an article on the publication of his memoirs: > https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/a-world-of-learning-the-journey-of-padmanabh-jaini/cid/1686901 > > > A world of learning: the journey of Padmanabh Jaini - Telegraph India > > In 1998, while teaching at the University of California at Berkeley, I > befriended a scholar much older and far more learned than I. This was > Padmanabh Jaini, a great authority on Buddhism and Jainism, with a profound > knowledge of texts in half a dozen languages. > www.telegraphindia.com > > With kind regards, > > Eva > > Eva De Clercq > Ghent University > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From filipsky at orient.cas.cz Wed May 26 17:09:27 2021 From: filipsky at orient.cas.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Jan_Filipsk=C3=BD?=) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 19:09:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] FW: Russian translation of Gitagovinda in Moskvityanin Message-ID: <00c501d75251$e2bb3ff0$a831bfd0$@orient.cas.cz> From: Jan Filipsk? [mailto:filipsky at orient.cas.cz] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 7:04 PM To: 'indology-bounces at list.indology.info' Cc: 'M?rcis Gas?ns' Subject: Russian translation of Gitagovinda in Moskvityanin Dear All, It came to my notice that the monthly literary review Moskvityanin (????????????, "The Muscovite") published by Mikhail Pogodin in Moscow contains the following translations by the foremost Russian Indologist Pavel Jakovlevi? Petrov, ?Razbor sanskritskoj poemy ?Gita-govinda? s otkrybkami iz nee?, Moskvitjanin 1:1, 1842, 120-129?, apart from ?Mats?opak?anam ili skazanie o rybe?, Moskvitjanin 4:8, 1841, 404-409 and ?Skazanie o Savitri?, Moskvitjanin 6:12, 1841, 337-352. Is there any member of the list who might be able and willing to share, at least, the first item, or ideally, all of them in an electronic version? Last time I approached the list, I miserably failed among the Tamilologists (none response on the authorship of the statue of poetess Auvaiyar on the Marina in Madras/Chennai). May I hope in more success with my present Sankskritic query? With best regards, Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Praha -- Tento e-mail byl zkontrolov?n na viry programem AVG. http://www.avg.cz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu Wed May 26 20:06:35 2021 From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 20:06:35 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Schmidt Ueber das Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita Message-ID: Dear All, I am looking for a PDF of Isaak Jacob Schmidt?s article ?Ueber das Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita.? Burnouf mentions this on p. 530 of his Introduction a l?histoire du buddhism indien as published in ?Mem. De l?Acad. des sciences de S. Petersbourg, t. 4, p. 202ff?, but I have been unable to find it. Best, -j Joseph Walser Department of Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jknutson at hawaii.edu Wed May 26 23:04:23 2021 From: jknutson at hawaii.edu (Jesse Knutson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 13:04:23 -1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padmanabh S. Jaini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A truly great person and scholar. I have so many great memories of talking with him?his candor, learning, and generosity all three beyond measure?from the beginning of my student days to sharing an office with him 2010-11. His life story alone was an education. He aged in such a beautiful way too: he was so generous and accommodating as to give even old age a good name (k?udre 'pi n?na? ?ara?a? prapanne...). His memory and example will live for eternity. On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:26 AM Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Sad news indeed. The last I saw Professor Jaini was at Berkeley during the > celebration of his 95th birthday. When Jaini left Michigan for Berkeley in > 1972, I was his replacement at Michigan. I did not know much about Michigan > before accepting the job offer. However, before coming to Michigan, I met > Professor Jaini at the Pune train station where he was between trains, and > he described to me the University of Michigan in some detail, making me > feel at ease. He was a great scholar with a wonderful sense of humor and > kindness. Will miss him. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:52 AM eva de clercq via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> Some colleagues in India brought to our attention that Padmanabh S. >> Jaini, one of the greatest scholars of Jainism (and Buddhism), and >> professor at Berkeley, has passed away at the age of 97. >> For an article on the publication of his memoirs: >> https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/a-world-of-learning-the-journey-of-padmanabh-jaini/cid/1686901 >> >> >> A world of learning: the journey of Padmanabh Jaini - Telegraph India >> >> In 1998, while teaching at the University of California at Berkeley, I >> befriended a scholar much older and far more learned than I. This was >> Padmanabh Jaini, a great authority on Buddhism and Jainism, with a profound >> knowledge of texts in half a dozen languages. >> www.telegraphindia.com >> >> With kind regards, >> >> Eva >> >> Eva De Clercq >> Ghent University >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu Thu May 27 01:45:08 2021 From: Joseph.Walser at tufts.edu (Walser, Joseph) Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 01:45:08 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Schmidt Ueber das Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My sincere thanks to Peter Wyzlic and Guy St. Amant for their quick and helpful replies. Best, -j Joseph Walser Department of Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 From: INDOLOGY On Behalf Of Walser, Joseph via INDOLOGY Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2021 4:07 PM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Schmidt Ueber das Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita Dear All, I am looking for a PDF of Isaak Jacob Schmidt?s article ?Ueber das Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita.? Burnouf mentions this on p. 530 of his Introduction a l?histoire du buddhism indien as published in ?Mem. De l?Acad. des sciences de S. Petersbourg, t. 4, p. 202ff?, but I have been unable to find it. Best, -j Joseph Walser Department of Religion Tufts University Medford, MA 02155 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at gwu.edu Thu May 27 02:01:00 2021 From: beitel at gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Wed, 26 May 2021 22:01:00 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Schmidt Ueber das Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 9:45 PM Walser, Joseph via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > My sincere thanks to Peter Wyzlic and Guy St. Amant for their quick and > helpful replies. > > Best, > > -j > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Walser > > Department of Religion > > Tufts University > > Medford, MA 02155 > > > > *From:* INDOLOGY * On Behalf Of *Walser, > Joseph via INDOLOGY > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 26, 2021 4:07 PM > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] PDF request Schmidt Ueber das Mahayana und > Pratschna-Paramita > > > > Dear All, > > I am looking for a PDF of Isaak Jacob Schmidt?s article ?Ueber das > Mahayana und Pratschna-Paramita.? Burnouf mentions this on p. 530 of his *Introduction > a l?histoire du buddhism indien* as published in ?Mem. De l?Acad. des > sciences de S. Petersbourg, t. 4, p. 202ff?, but I have been unable to find > it. > > Best, > > -j > > > > Joseph Walser > > Department of Religion > > Tufts University > > Medford, MA 02155 > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Alf Hiltebeitel Professor of Religion, History and Human Sciences Department of Religion George Washington University 2106 G Street, NW Washington DC, 20052 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Fri May 28 07:15:16 2021 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 09:15:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Central Asia/Silk Roads Maps Message-ID: Dear Indologists, Maybe someone can help me. I need a few maps of Silk Roads and Eastern and Western Central Asia Buddhist centres. Do you know any website where I can find good quality maps or can you submit any scan of 2-3 maps of this geographical area? Best wishes, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo **ER **osati/ * paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Fri May 28 08:15:22 2021 From: rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 20:15:22 +1200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Central Asia/Silk Roads Maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <037d8e9d9a555f4df706f1ace8d72dbc645c840e.camel@indica-et-buddhica.org> Dear Paolo, Chunghui Tsui put together a map for Northern Liang stupas, you might find it helpful. See fig. 40, p. 97: Tsui, Chung-hui ??? (2020) Chinese Calligraphy and Early Buddhist Manuscripts. Oxford: Indica et Buddhica. A PDF can be downloaded from here: https://indica-et-buddhica.org/authors/publications/tsui-chunghui/chinese-calligraphy-and-early-buddhist-manuscripts Best, Richard -- T +6433121699??M +64210640216??E rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org IM https://t.me/rmahoney??W https://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Indica et Buddhica??Littledene??Bay Road??Oxford??NZ -----Original Message----- From: Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY Reply-To: Paolo Eugenio Rosati To: Indology Subject: [INDOLOGY] Central Asia/Silk Roads Maps Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 09:15:16 +0200 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 Dear Indologists, Maybe someone can help me. I need a few maps of Silk Roads and Eastern and Western Central Asia Buddhist centres. Do you know any website where I can find good quality maps or can you submit any scan of 2-3 maps of this geographical area? Best wishes, Paolo _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tyler.g.neill at gmail.com Fri May 28 18:44:49 2021 From: tyler.g.neill at gmail.com (Tyler Neill) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 14:44:49 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?q?question_about_electronic_text_of_Tattvacin?= =?utf-8?b?dMSBbWHhuYdp?= Message-ID: Dear all, If there are Navya-Ny?ya fans out there, this question is for you. A number of electronic Sanskrit books were prepared by Central Sanskrit University and posted here in PDF form. One of these e-books, prepared by the Guruvayoor Campus, is the Tattvacint?ma?i. (There are two versions, I'm not quite sure why.) This e-book (here ) has been further made machine-searchable (here and here ), and I'm now working on further improving the plain-text, which I'll happily post for all to use. The data quality of this version seems relatively good, and it's the only such complete electronic text that I know of. I'm specifically interested in its particular division into sizeable paragraphs. However, I cannot yet figure out what edition it is based on. I have looked at online Archive versions of the Asiatic Society edition (e.g., vol. 1 ) and the Tirupati edition (e.g., vol. 1 ), but neither of these seems to match. I fear that the e-book is an independent creation with no documentation, but I hold out hope for a more firmly established basis. Does anyone have further ideas concerning what this electronic version of the Tattvacint?ma?i was based on, or else, how one can effectively get in touch with the project team to ask? Kind wishes, Tyler -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vitus.angermeier at univie.ac.at Fri May 28 19:51:58 2021 From: vitus.angermeier at univie.ac.at (Vitus Angermeier) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 21:51:58 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Central Asia/Silk Roads Maps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fb54f23-7a35-057f-74ec-6619caab4c81@univie.ac.at> Just in case you have not yet thought of this resource: There are several results for "silk road map" on wikimedia commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=silk+road+map&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image These images have the advantage of a license that allows re-use. Some of them are svg files and especially handy for scaling and further editing. Best wishes, Vitus Am 28.05.21 um 09:15 schrieb Paolo Eugenio Rosati via INDOLOGY: > Dear Indologists, > > Maybe someone can help me. I need a few maps of Silk Roads and Eastern > and Western Central Asia Buddhist centres. Do you know any website > where I can find good quality maps or can you submit any scan of 2-3 > maps of this geographical area? > > Best wishes, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati* > *** > PhD inAsian and African Studies > * > _https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo > __ER > __osati/ > _ > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ??????????????????????? Dr. Vitus Angermeier Department of South Asian, Tibetan and Buddhist Studies University of Vienna Spitalgasse 2, Courtyard 2.1 1090 Vienna, Austria ORC?D: 0000-0002-8505-6112 ? on Academia.edu ? Personal Website < https://homepage.univie.ac.at/vitus.angermeier/> The Initiative for Fair Open Access Publishing in South Asian Studies , contact at foasas.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: hfnlponoahpochnj.png Type: image/png Size: 57488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From let745 at mail.harvard.edu Fri May 28 19:57:43 2021 From: let745 at mail.harvard.edu (Lee Ling Ting) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 15:57:43 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for a pdf Message-ID: <7139C6F1-939A-4A80-9448-F0D646784489@mail.harvard.edu> Dear all, I?m looking for a pdf copy of the following: Joshi, S. D. Proceedings of the Winter Institute on Ancient Indian Theories on Sentence-meaning. 1st ed. Vol. No. 6. Publications of the Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit. Pune: University of Poona, 1980. Can someone please share a copy if they happen to have one? Thank you! Sincerely, Lee Ling ?? Lee Ling Ting PhD Candidate, Department of South Asian Studies, GSAS, Harvard University. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Fri May 28 20:11:19 2021 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 16:11:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Publication Message-ID: <25EB48AB-CBF8-4DAA-8AFA-3027BB792062@gmail.com> Hello All, I am very happy to bring to your notice the publication of my book, Feminine Journeys of the Mahabharata. More information can be found on the publisher?s page at the link below: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-73165-6 Thank you. Lavanya Lavanya Vemsani Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies) Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences Shawnee State University President, Ohio Academy of History Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies Editor-in-Chief American Journal of Indic Studies Managing Editor International Journal of Indic Religions Associate Editor -Canadian Journal of History -Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rospatt at berkeley.edu Fri May 28 20:52:16 2021 From: rospatt at berkeley.edu (Alexander von Rospatt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 22:52:16 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Padmanbh Jaini: obituary note Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, it is with great sadness that I write to inform that our revered colleague, teacher and friend, Prof. Padmanabh Srivarma Jaini, master of Buddhist and Jain Studies, passed away on Tuesday May 25, just five months shy from what would have been his 98th birthday. His health had been failing over the last weeks, and he peacefully passed away on his own terms in his home in the Berkeley hills, with his son Arvind at his side, who as a medical doctor oversaw his gentle departure. While he became more frail over the last years, Prof. Jaini was crystal clear in his head until the very end, remembered details and names with great accuracy and left us a lovely account of his rich and long life with his Yog?yoga memoirs (2019; for details see https://www.telegraphindia.com/opinion/a-world-of-learning-the-journey-of-padmanabh-jaini/cid/1686901 ). He also continued to be accessible to colleagues and students and took a deep interest in their work. Only at the beginning of this month (May) he gave a long and passionate speech about Buddhist Studies and its history at Berkeley, standing on the balcony of his home and addressing the students and faculty of Berkeley?s Buddhist Studies graduate program who had assembled below in the street. Together with Prof. Lewis Lancaster he had founded this program after moving from Ann Arbor (University of Michigan) to Berkeley (University of California) in 1972. The program allowed him to train a whole generation of Buddhist Studies scholars who came to serve as professors at premier institutions, advancing and institutionalizing the study of Buddhism in the US and beyond. As he said shortly before his passing "my legacy are my books, and my students who went on to be professors and academics.? Jaini?s service to the field of Buddhist Studies as something of an ?diguru is matched by his contributions to the field of Jain Studies, which were duly celebrated in an international symposium on The Study of Jainism held in his honor at Berkeley in October 2013 on the occasion of his 90th birthday. His Festschrift Jainism and Early Buddhism, Essays in Honour of Padmanabh S. Jaini (2003) draws on his specialization in both areas. Trained in Sanskrit and Pali at the University of Bombay (MA completed in 1949), and at Vidyodaya Pirivena in Sri Lanka (where he received the Tipi?aka ?c?rya degree in 1951), Padmanabh Jaini earned his PhD under the supervision of John Brough at SOAS (1958) with a dissertation dedicated to a study of the Abhidharmad?pa. The publication of the critical edition (Patma 1959) marks the beginning of a long list of editions, monographs and articles dedicated to study of Indian Buddhism. This list includes important editions of Pali works, viz. the Milinda-??k? (1961), the Lokaneyyappakara?a? (1986), the fifty extra-canonical J?takas Prof. Jaini had discovered in Burma (Pa??a?sa-Ja?taka, 1981-1983; translation 1985-1986), and Sa?gharakkhita?s treatise on rhetoric entitled Subodh?la?kara together with its commentarial tradition(2000), as well as further editions of Sanskrit works, viz. Ratn?kara??nti?s pa?jik? (entitled S?ratam?) on the A?tt?asa?hasrika? (1979) and Amrrr?tacandras?ri?s Laghutattvasphota (1978), a Jain (Dig?mabara) work. Beyond these editions and textual studies Prof. Jaini has authored a wide range of articles and book chapters that explore particular aspects of the mentioned texts, and that are also dedicated to a wide array of other topics and subjects in the history of Buddhism, albeit with a clear focus on abhidharma and related scholastic traditions. Many of these incisive papers have been brought together in his Collected Papers on Buddhist Studies (2001). Prof. Jaini?s work on Buddhism stands out not only for the critical acumen, learnedness and precision he has brought to it thanks also to his superb command of Sanskrit and Pali, but also because he has always treated Buddhism as part of the larger Indian religious landscape. This was easy for him because of his intimate knowledge of Jainism and the Brahmanical traditions. His monograph The Jaina Path of Purification (first published in 1979) became a classic that has brought the study and knowledge of Jainism to a broader English speaking public, and his numerous further publications on Jainism have made him something of a founder figure also in this field. Beyond his mentioned introduction to Jainism this includes a detailed monograph dedicated to the study of Gender and Salvation: Jaina Debates on the Spiritual Liberation of Women (1991), a book-length study of ?Jain Sectarian Debates: Eighty-four points of contention (Caury?msi Bol) Between ?vet?mbaras and Digambaras? (Journal of Indian Philosophy 36, 2008, pp. 1-246), an earlier monograph authored in Hindi on Jain Samprad?y men mok?a, avat?r aur punarjanma (1982), as well as a rich array of articles and book chapters, most of which have been reprinted in his Collected Papers on Jaina Studies (2000). Prof. Jaini?s rich oeuvre combines the best virtues of western scholarship with the deep traditional learning in which he was steeped before moving to the west. He was a capacious thinker whose keen interest in religion extended beyond India to the abrahamic traditions and made him a welcome (though reluctant) participant in interreligious dialogue. More generally he was extraordinarily well read also in areas outside the confines of his academic specialization. His innate curiosity and the spirit of unrelenting inquiry he brought to his studies were infectious. He inspired not only his numerous students but also touched the lives of his colleagues and friends with his gentle smile and the generosity with which he shared his seemingly boundless knowledge. Padmanabh Jaini is survived by his son Arvind and his grandson Ashvin. Alexander von Rospatt ???????? Professor in the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies, and Director of the Group in Buddhist Studies University of California, Berkeley -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From let745 at mail.harvard.edu Fri May 28 20:53:59 2021 From: let745 at mail.harvard.edu (Lee Ling Ting) Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 16:53:59 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Looking for a pdf In-Reply-To: <2114229534.8831.1622234201748.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m11> References: <7139C6F1-939A-4A80-9448-F0D646784489@mail.harvard.edu> <2114229534.8831.1622234201748.JavaMail.www@wwinf1m11> Message-ID: <410ADA71-DD69-4816-8A1A-55A26CA8CB81@mail.harvard.edu> Attachment available until Jun 27, 2021 Dear Georges-Jean Pinault, Here you go. Thanks to Aleksandar Uskokov for sharing his copy of the text. Best, Lee Ling Click to Download Joshi, Proceedings of the Winter Institute on Ancient Indian Theories on Sentence Meaning.pdf 103.2 MB > On May 28, 2021, at 4:36 PM, Georges PINAULT > wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, I would also be interested by a pdf of this paper. Many thanks in advance. Best regards, Georges-Jean Pinault (EPHE, PSL) > > > > > > > Message du 28/05/21 21:58 > > De : "Lee Ling Ting" > > > A : indology at list.indology.info > > Copie ? : > > Objet : [INDOLOGY] Looking for a pdf > > > >Dear all, > > I?m looking for a pdf copy of the following: > Joshi, S. D. Proceedings of the Winter Institute on Ancient Indian Theories on Sentence-meaning. 1st ed. Vol. No. 6. Publications of the Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit. Pune: University of Poona, 1980. > Can someone please share a copy if they happen to have one? > > Thank you! > > Sincerely, > Lee Ling > > > ?? > Lee Ling Ting > PhD Candidate, > Department of South Asian Studies, > GSAS, Harvard University. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun May 30 07:09:13 2021 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 12:39:13 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: <6B119637-814A-4160-A764-FA0598927205@soas.ac.uk> References: <1621055121.S.51016.autosave.drafts.1621055272.7167@webmail.rediffmail.com> <6B119637-814A-4160-A764-FA0598927205@soas.ac.uk> Message-ID: I found the following discussion of this verse in Meaning of ha?ha in Early Ha?hayoga by Jason Birch https://www.academia.edu/1539699/Meaning_of_ha%E1%B9%ADha_in_Early_Ha%E1%B9%ADhayoga In the Vivekamartanda there are only two instances where the adverb hathat is used and both imply that Hathayogic techniques have a forceful effect, rather than requiring forceful effort. In the first instance the Yogin applies what appears to be khecarimudra and, while meditating on kundalini, he drinks the liquid (jala) that trickles from a sixteen-petalled lotus in the head and is obtained forcibly (ha!hat). 86 Here, the combination of three techniques (i.e., khecarimudra, meditation, and possibly some kind of pranayama 87) enables the Yogin to forcibly retain his nectar, which would otherwise trickle away. The second instance occurs in a verse that was appropriated by at least five later Hatha texts. 88 It reads ?as one might forcibly (hathat) open a door with a key, so a Yogin breaks open the door to liberation with kundalini ? (udghatayet kapatam tu yatha ku?cikaya hathat | kundalinya tatha yogi moksadvaram prabhedayet). As Brahmananda notes, 89 the most important word in this verse is hathat because it serves as the proverbial ?lamp on a threshold? to illuminate both the simile and the statement. He understands hathat as both balat and hathabhyasat, and the implication of this is that the practice of Hathayoga causes kundalini to rise, which, like a key, forces the door of liberation to open. When coupled with other images that are used to convey the effect of Hathayoga on kundalini, such as that of a stick (danda) beating a snake (e.g., Hathapradipika 3.10, 3.67), the implication is that the force of Hathayoga is the forceful effect of its practice on kundalini. Here he mentions one Brahmananda and the footnote 89 takes us to Jyotsnaa 3.105 of that author. On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 10:30 PM James Mallinson wrote: > Many thanks indeed to Jonathan Silk from whom I have received the needful. > > All the best, > > Jim > > On 16 May 2021, at 16:40, James Mallinson wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > Many thanks to all those who replied to me, on and off the list, with > their valuable suggestions. Having been altogether unable to make sense of > the simile I now find myself with a surfeit of possible solutions. > > In particular I thank Andrea Acri for reminding me that I myself have > written about *ku?cik?*s. Chasing up that lead led me to a half-verse in > the *Khecar?vidy? *(2.105ab) in which *udgh??ya* refers to removing an > *argala* or ?bolt?: > > udgh??y?rgalam ?k??e jihv?m ?rdhva? pras?rayet | > > I find a similar usage in the *Ha?hasa?ketacandrik?. *Because of these > usages, and the suggestions from colleagues that *udgh??ayet* and > *vibhedayet* might have subtly different meanings in the *Vivekam?rta??a* > verse, I now suspect that *udgh??ayet* is being used in the sense of > ?unlock?. And that *ha?h?t*, as some colleagues suggested, gives a sense > of certainty or inevitability. (By the way, I should have noted that the > *Vivekam?rta??a* does not call its yoga *ha?ha*, so it is unlikely that > there is any connotation of a particular type of yoga in *ha?h?t*.) > > My latest translation of the verse is: ?In the same way that by means of > a key one may be sure to unlock a door, by means of Ku??alin? the yogi > may [be sure to] break open the doorway to liberation ? > > But I feel a long footnote coming on. To help with that, would any > colleagues be able to point me towards a pdf of the book by von Hin?ber > that Sven Sellmer kindly mentioned (or provide just the relevant pages)? > Here are the details again: > > Oskar v. Hin?ber: Sprachentwicklung und Kulturgeschichte. Ein Beitrag zur > materiellen Kultur des buddhistischen Klosterwesens. Stuttgart: Steiner > (Akademie der Wissenschaften und der Literatur. Geistes- und Sozialwiss. > Klasse. Jg. 1992, Nr. 6)., esp. pp. 14??24, 30??34. > > All the best, > > Jim > > On 15 May 2021, at 14:37, Ananya Vajpeyi wrote: > > Jim, picking up from Prof. Kapstein and Andrea Acri, I am reminded that in > Hindi, the "key" or "Cliff Notes" that people use to study for exams here > in India is called a ku?j?. Basically, with the right ku?j?, you can > "crack" an entrance exam. I realize that the door-key-opening-breaking > through metaphor is continuing here, from ku??alin? yoga to the IIT > qualifying test, which yields its own version of mok?a for the successful > candidates. And certainly getting through such ordeals to breach the > portals of these vaunted institutions -- engineering / medical / > architecture / management / law colleges -- requires a certain ha?ha, > determination, force, effort, discipline, rigour, zor-zabardast?! > > I see you don't really need our help, except as a form of "time-pass" in > this unending lockdown... > > Yours, > > AV. > > > On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 10:38 AM alakendu das via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dr.Mallimson, >> I find "Kunchika" may be loosely translated as "Ripper" i.e a tool to rip >> open something. >> >> Alakendu Das. >> >> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android >> >> >> >> >> From: James Mallinson >> Sent: Sat, 15 May 2021 02:14:28 GMT+0530 >> To: Indology >> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I wonder if anybody can help me understand a simile in a *ha?hayoga* >> text I?m editing, the *Vivekam?rta??a*. Verse 34 reads: >> >> udgh??ayet kap??a? tu yath? ku?cikay? ha?h?t | >> ku??aliny? tath? yog? mok?adv?ra? vibhedayet || >> >> My incomplete translation is as follows: ?The yogi should use Ku??alin? >> to break open the doorway to liberation in the same way that one might use >> a *ku?cik?* to force open a *kap??a*.? I had been translating *ku?cik?* >> as ?key? and *kap??a* as ?door?, but this isn?t altogether satisfactory. >> A key does not force a door to open. But I am unable to think of what this >> *ku?cik?* and *kap??a* might be. I am aware that a *kap??a* is usually a >> double door (I think of saloon doors in cowboy films) but what then is the >> *ku?cik?*? Of course it is quite possible that it is just a rather >> sloppy simile. >> >> All the best, >> >> Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > *Ananya Vajpeyi* > https://www.csds.in/ananya_vajpeyi > http://www.crassh.cam.ac.uk/people/profile/ananya-vajpeyi > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zysk at hum.ku.dk Sun May 30 12:29:49 2021 From: zysk at hum.ku.dk (Kenneth Gregory Zysk) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 12:29:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?cHLEgeG5h8SBecSBbWE=?= Message-ID: I was wondering if those specialists in yoga on the list might know the origin of this definition of pr???y?ma found in Bha??otpala?s commentary to B?hatsa?hit? 95/97.62 in connection with the practice of warding off the effects of bad omens: savy?h?ti? sapra?av?? g?yatr??iras? saha/ tri? pa?hed ?yatapr??a? pr???y?ma? sa ucyate// Many thanks in advance, Best, Ken From sellmers at gmx.de Sun May 30 13:29:01 2021 From: sellmers at gmx.de (Sven Sellmer) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 15:29:01 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?cHLEgeG5h8SBecSBbWE=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sun May 30 13:49:32 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:49:32 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?cHLEgeG5h8SBecSBbWE=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Kenneth, See also: verse 10 of the am?tan?dopani?at with commentary of Brahmayogin in the Muktabodha Digital Library. https://etexts.muktabodha.org/DL_CATALOG_USER_INTERFACE/dl_user_interface_create_utf8_text.php?hk_file_url=..%2FTEXTS%2FETEXTS%2FamrtanaadopanisatHK.txt&miri_catalog_number=M00104 Also in the Muktabodha Digital Library, if you look at the Yogas?rasa?graha by Vaktra?ambhu , its attributed to y?j?avalkya . There are page numbers in this e-text. The attribution is on page 25. https://etexts.muktabodha.org/DL_CATALOG_USER_INTERFACE/dl_user_interface_create_utf8_text.php?hk_file_url=..%2FTEXTS%2FETEXTS%2FyogasarasamgrahaHK.txt&miri_catalog_number=M00213 Harry Spier Harry Spier On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 8:31 AM Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I was wondering if those specialists in yoga on the list might know the > origin of this definition of pr???y?ma found in Bha??otpala?s commentary to > B?hatsa?hit? 95/97.62 in connection with the practice of warding off the > effects of bad omens: > > savy?h?ti? sapra?av?? g?yatr??iras? saha/ > > tri? pa?hed ?yatapr??a? pr???y?ma? sa ucyate// > > Many thanks in advance, > Best, > Ken > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun May 30 15:29:20 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 09:29:20 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 15:13, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Might not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the > palace museums? > I remember seeing a collection of old locks and keys at the Museum of Indology and Universal Institute of Orientology , at Gangwal Park in Jaipur, twenty or thirty years ago. Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lavanyavemsani at gmail.com Sun May 30 16:50:19 2021 From: lavanyavemsani at gmail.com (Lavanya Vemsani) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 12:50:19 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] ANN: Book published Message-ID: <4BC47700-D198-4D7B-9CF5-B3CEFBB0A15D@gmail.com> Hello All, I am very happy to bring to your notice the publication of my book, Feminine Journeys of the Mahabharata. More information can be found on the publisher?s page at the link below: https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-73165-6 Thank you. Lavanya Lavanya Vemsani Ph.D (History) Ph.D. (Religious Studies) Professor, Dept. of Social Sciences Shawnee State University President, Ohio Academy of History Co-founder, American Academy of Indic Studies Editor-in-Chief American Journal of Indic Studies Managing Editor International Journal of Indic Religions Associate Editor -Canadian Journal of History -Air Force Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs http://www.shawnee.edu/academics/social-sciences/faculty/lvemsani.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alanus1216 at yahoo.com Sun May 30 17:16:17 2021 From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher) Date: Sun, 30 May 2021 17:16:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help with a simile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1591979293.798509.1622394977300@mail.yahoo.com> Try also the Raja Kelkar Museum in Pune. Allen Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, May 30, 2021, 11:29 AM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY wrote: On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 15:13, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY wrote: ? ?Might not some old Indian locks be preserved in one or another of the palace museums? I remember seeing a collection of old locks and keys at the Museum of Indology and Universal Institute of Orientology, at Gangwal Park in Jaipur, twenty or thirty years ago.? Best,Dominik _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at lrz.uni-muenchen.de Sun May 30 23:24:29 2021 From: zydenbos at lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 01:24:29 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [RISA-L LIST] Padmanabh S. Jaini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433b082c59de61201aba8c2c9f801662@lrz.uni-muenchen.de> P.S. Jaini's demise is a very sad loss for the scholarly community. I remember how I was in Ahmedabad when his book _The Jaina Path of Purification_ appeared. Pt. Dalsukhbhai Malvania had a pre-publication copy of the book and showed it to me when I visited him at his home; Malvania said this is a book everybody should read. Now, more than forty years later, there still is no better introductory book to Jaina thought in a western language. It is the obvious book which I recommend to my students. The first time I spoke with Padman?bhanavaru was on the occasion of a conference in Toronto, more than 25 years ago. I must admit that I enjoyed the shock on his face when I told him in Kannada that I knew where he was from, that his mother was a well-known Jaina author, and that I knew all the leading Jaina clergy in his native region who told anecdotes about him. Unfortunately not many more such occasions for meeting followed, but I remember them all as cordial and beneficial. He will be sorely missed. Another scholar of a great generation has left us. Robert Zydenbos On 2021-05-26 12:52, eva de clercq wrote: > Dear all, > > Some colleagues in India brought to our attention that Padmanabh S. > Jaini, one of the greatest scholars of Jainism (and Buddhism), and > professor at Berkeley, has passed away at the age of 97. [?] -- Prof. Dr. Robert J. Zydenbos / ????. ??. ???????? ???????????? Institute of Indology and Tibetology Department of Asian Studies Ludwig-Maximilians-Universit?t M?nchen (University of Munich - LMU) Germany Tel. (+49-89-) 2180-5782 Fax (+49-89-) 2180-5827 (secretariat) Web https://zydenbos.userweb.mwn.de/ PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) public key: https://zydenbos.userweb.mwn.de/zydenbos-uni-muenchen-pgp-public-key.asc Telegram Messenger: @zydenbos -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: blocked.gif Type: image/gif Size: 118 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dominik at haas.asia Mon May 31 07:30:36 2021 From: dominik at haas.asia (Dominik A. Haas) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 09:30:36 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?cHLEgeG5h8SBecSBbWE=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If what you are looking for is really only this definition, the Vi??usm?ti might indeed be the source, as pointed out by Sven Sellmer (note also the correct reading /g?yatr??- /there). Of interest might also Vaikh?nasa-Dharmas?tra II 10 (pasted below). The origin of the practice itself, of course, would be quite another matter... Best regards, D Haas br?hma?o h?dg?bhi? k?atriya? ka??hag?bhir vai?yas t?lug?bhir adbhir ?c?meta ?tm?na? prok?ya pratyarkam apo vis?jy?rka? paryety udakasy?gner v?map?r?va? pr???n ?yamya pratyekam o?k?r?disaptavy?h?tip?rv?? g?yatr?m ante sa?irask?? trir japet sa pr???y?mas tr?n eka? v? pr???y?ma? k?tv? p?ta? ?ata? da?a a??au v? s?vitr?? s?ya?pr?ta? sa?dhy?m up?sya nai?ikam ?hnika? caino 'pam?jyate dvij?ti? sa?dhyop?sanah?na? ??drasamo bhavati brahmac?r? svan?ma sa?k?rty?bhiv?dayed aha? bho iti ?rotre ca sa?sp??ya guro? p?da? dak?i?a? dak?i?ena p??in? v?ma? v?mena vyatyasyar ?p?dam g?h?ann ?nata??r?o 'bhiv?dayaty ?yu?m?n bhava saumyety ena? ?a?sed an???rv?d? n?bhivandyo m?t? pit? gurur vidv??sa? ca pratyaham abhiv?dan?y?? __________________ *Dominik A. Haas, BA MA* DOC Fellow, Austrian Academy of Sciences | PhD Candidate, University of Vienna dominik at haas.asia | ORCID 0000-0002-8505-6112 follow my work on univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia Austrian Academy of Sciences Hollandstra?e 11?13, 1020 Vienna, Austria oeaw.ac.at/ikga 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 12) July 22?24, 2021, Vienna, Austria iigrs.wordpress.com iigrsuk at googlemail.com The Initiative for Fair Open Access Publishing in South Asian Studies foasas.org contact at foasas.org Am 30.05.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Sven Sellmer via INDOLOGY: > Dear Colleague! > A quick search in the GRETIL corpus seems to suggest that the ultimate > source is Vi??usm?ti 55.9, but the verse is also attested, among > others, in the Garu?apur??a, so it might be difficult to establish > Bha??otpala's concrete source. > Best wishes, > Sven Sellmer > *Gesendet:*?Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 14:29 Uhr > *Von:*?"Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY" > *An:*?"indology at list.indology.info" > *Betreff:*?[INDOLOGY] pr???y?ma > I was wondering if those specialists in yoga on the list might know > the origin of this definition of pr???y?ma found in Bha??otpala?s > commentary to B?hatsa?hit? 95/97.62 in connection with the practice of > warding off the effects of bad omens: > > savy?h?ti? sapra?av?? g?yatr??iras? saha/ > > tri? pa?hed ?yatapr??a? pr???y?ma? sa ucyate// > > Many thanks in advance, > Best, > Ken > > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: oawlogo.png Type: image/png Size: 2449 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: iigrs_logo.png Type: image/png Size: 2565 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: foasaslogosmall.png Type: image/png Size: 57488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon May 31 08:08:14 2021 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 10:08:14 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] =?utf-8?b?cHLEgeG5h8SBecSBbWE=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: g?yatr?? is also the reading of the ?loka as given in Yog??vara's commentary on the B?hatsa?hit? 96.62 ed. K.V. Sarma (vol. 2, 2012, p. 1188). Le 31 mai 2021 ? 09:30, Dominik A. Haas a ?crit : > > If what you are looking for is really only this definition, the Vi??usm?ti might indeed be the source, as pointed out by Sven Sellmer (note also the correct reading g?yatr??- there). Of interest might also Vaikh?nasa-Dharmas?tra II 10 (pasted below). The origin of the practice itself, of course, would be quite another matter... > Best regards, > > D Haas > br?hma?o h?dg?bhi? k?atriya? ka??hag?bhir vai?yas t?lug?bhir adbhir ?c?meta ?tm?na? prok?ya pratyarkam apo vis?jy?rka? paryety udakasy?gner v?map?r?va? pr???n ?yamya pratyekam o?k?r?disaptavy?h?tip?rv?? g?yatr?m ante sa?irask?? trir japet sa pr???y?mas tr?n eka? v? pr???y?ma? k?tv? p?ta? ?ata? da?a a??au v? s?vitr?? s?ya?pr?ta? sa?dhy?m up?sya nai?ikam ?hnika? caino 'pam?jyate dvij?ti? sa?dhyop?sanah?na? ??drasamo bhavati brahmac?r? svan?ma sa?k?rty?bhiv?dayed aha? bho iti ?rotre ca sa?sp??ya guro? p?da? dak?i?a? dak?i?ena p??in? v?ma? v?mena vyatyasyar ?p?dam g?h?ann ?nata??r?o 'bhiv?dayaty ?yu?m?n bhava saumyety ena? ?a?sed an???rv?d? n?bhivandyo m?t? pit? gurur vidv??sa? ca pratyaham abhiv?dan?y?? > > > __________________ > Dominik A. Haas, BA MA > DOC Fellow, Austrian Academy of Sciences | PhD Candidate, University of Vienna > dominik at haas.asia | ORCID 0000-0002-8505-6112 > follow my work on univie.academia.edu/DominikHaas > > > Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia > Austrian Academy of Sciences > Hollandstra?e 11?13, 1020 Vienna, Austria > oeaw.ac.at/ikga > > > 12th International Indology Graduate Research Symposium (IIGRS 12) > July 22?24, 2021, Vienna, Austria > iigrs.wordpress.com > iigrsuk at googlemail.com > > The Initiative for Fair Open Access Publishing in South Asian Studies > foasas.org > contact at foasas.org > > Am 30.05.2021 um 15:29 schrieb Sven Sellmer via INDOLOGY: >> Dear Colleague! >> A quick search in the GRETIL corpus seems to suggest that the ultimate source is Vi??usm?ti 55.9, but the verse is also attested, among others, in the Garu?apur??a, so it might be difficult to establish Bha??otpala's concrete source. >> Best wishes, >> Sven Sellmer >> >> >> Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 14:29 Uhr >> Von: "Kenneth Gregory Zysk via INDOLOGY" >> An: "indology at list.indology.info" >> Betreff: [INDOLOGY] pr???y?ma >> I was wondering if those specialists in yoga on the list might know the origin of this definition of pr???y?ma found in Bha??otpala?s commentary to B?hatsa?hit? 95/97.62 in connection with the practice of warding off the effects of bad omens: >> >> savy?h?ti? sapra?av?? g?yatr??iras? saha/ >> >> tri? pa?hed ?yatapr??a? pr???y?ma? sa ucyate// >> >> Many thanks in advance, >> Best, >> Ken >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Mon May 31 08:23:31 2021 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 10:23:31 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of you, who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in Germany: A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was expected this summer semester. There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against the planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, Latin, Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of Classics and the Department of Sports Science. If you would like to join the protest and support the process of filling the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student Council of the Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the Academic Senate will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is therefore a certain urgency in this matter. Yours sincerely, Walter Slaje https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon May 31 12:59:27 2021 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 14:59:27 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Walter Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no petition (that I can see anyway) I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one with this experience. Best, Jonathan On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of you, > who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in Germany: > > A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - > completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of > departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and > contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been > released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was > expected this summer semester. > > There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against the > planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, Latin, > Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near > Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of > Classics and the Department of Sports Science. > > If you would like to join the protest and support the process of filling > the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student Council of the > Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the Academic Senate > will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is therefore a certain > urgency in this matter. > > Yours sincerely, > Walter Slaje > > > https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Mon May 31 13:25:40 2021 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 15:25:40 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, thank you for your willingness to help! This is the German text of the actual petition: Wir fordern das Rektorat der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg dazu auf, die massiven K?rzungspl?ne einzustellen und nicht wie geplant, 10 Professuren zu schlie?en. Wir fordern die Landesregierung und die demokratischen Fraktionen im Landtag von Sachsen-Anhalt dazu auf, endlich eine stabile und aufgabengerechte Grundfinanzierung f?r die Hochschulen des Landes sicherzustellen. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen der Martin-Luther-Universit?t sich klar f?r die Einheit von Forschung und Lehre, den Erhalt ?kleiner F?cher? und f?r die Vielfalt unserer Universit?t einzusetzen. Begr?ndung *Mehrere Fakult?ten werden geschlossen, Institute werden weggek?rzt, Studieng?nge werden gestrichen*: So sieht die Vorlage zur Zukunft der MLU aus, die am Mittwoch (2.6.) im Senat beschlossen werden soll. W?hrend wir jetzt schon unter massiven Einschnitten leiden, soll die Zukunft noch d?sterer werden. Ohne jede wissenschaftliche oder fachliche Begr?ndung sollen die Studieng?nge Gr?zistik, Latinistik, Indologie, Japanologie, Sprache und Kultur S?dasiens, Mittel- und Neulateinische Philologie, Arch?ologie des Vorderorients, Land- und Umwelttechnik und Landeskulturen und Kulturtechniken sowie das Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaft und das f?r Sportwissenschaft f?r immer geschlossen werden. Dabei geht es offensichtlich nicht um eine inhaltliche Schwerpunktsetzung, sondern um einen K?rzungshammer, der dort einschl?gt, wo Lehrstuhlinhaber*innen in der n?chsten Zeit in Rente gehen. Und es trifft vielfach die ?kleinen F?cher?, die gerade deshalb so wertvoll sind, weil sie nur an wenigen Universit?ten ?berhaupt gelehrt werden. Aber nicht nur die dort eingeschriebenen Studierenden sind betroffen: *Wir alle werden eine deutliche Verschlechterung der Studierbarkeit sp?ren*, denn nach den Pl?nen des Rektorates fallen 100 Vollzeitstellen weg, Pr?fungs?mter werden fusioniert und Fakult?ten vereinigt: so sollen beispielsweise die Phil. Fak 1 aufgel?st und was von ihr ?brig bleibt den neuen Fakult?ten aus der Phil. Fak. 2 & 3 zugeschlagen werden und in der Politikwissenschaft die Lehrst?hle f?r Politische Theorie und Regierungslehre zusammengelegt werden. *Weniger Forscher:innen und weniger Verwaltungsangestellte, so l?sst sich das neue Konzept zusammenfassen.* Und dabei wird es nicht bleiben: F?cher wie die Informatik sind im Konzept schon als reformbed?rftig, d.h. praktisch zu k?rzen, benannt und die drei naturwissenschaftlichen Fakult?ten sollen ohnehin auf zwei reduziert werden. Eine Beteiligung der Besch?ftigten und Studierenden ist scheinbar nicht erw?nscht, denn der Entwurf soll ohne weitere Diskussion am *Mittwoch beschlossen werden. Die Umsetzung soll im August beginnen und bis WS 2022 abgeschlossen sein.* Wir werden dabei nicht mitmachen! Uns ist klar, dass die Finanzlage der MLU schlecht ist. Wir wissen, dass die Landesregierung bei der Finanzierung der Hochschulen versagt und wir fordern, dass die Grundfinanzierung der MLU endlich stabilisiert und ausgebaut wird. Aber wir sehen vor allem, dass nichts diese massiven Einschnitte und das Absterben ganzer Fakult?ten rechtfertigt. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen, diesem Konzept nicht zuzustimmen. *Wir fordern vom Rektorat, dieses Kahlschlagskonzept sofort zur?ckzuziehen und einen echten Dialog mit den Fakult?ten zu suchen.* Wir fordern von der Landesregierung und den demokratischen Fraktionen, sich diesem Problem f?r die gesamte Bildungslandschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt zu stellen und die MLU auszufinanzieren. Der Verlust f?r unsere Hochschullandschaft wird viel gr??er sein als die 15 Millionen Euro, die dem Etat damit entzogen werden sollen. https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten Hope it works! Warm wishes, Walter Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:00 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk : > Dear Walter > > Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the > actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I > could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push > gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no > petition (that I can see anyway) > > I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one > with this experience. > > Best, > Jonathan > > On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of >> you, who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in >> Germany: >> >> A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - >> completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of >> departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and >> contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been >> released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was >> expected this summer semester. >> >> There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against the >> planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, Latin, >> Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near >> Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of >> Classics and the Department of Sports Science. >> >> If you would like to join the protest and support the process of filling >> the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student Council of the >> Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the Academic Senate >> will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is therefore a certain >> urgency in this matter. >> >> Yours sincerely, >> Walter Slaje >> >> >> https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhododaktylos at gmail.com Mon May 31 13:44:37 2021 From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 15:44:37 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While I am aware that many on this list read German fluently, I also know that many don't. In that spirit, I respectfully offer the translation given below. ? We call on the rectorate of the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg to stop the massive cutback plans and not to cut 10 chairs/institutes as planned. We call on the state government and the democratic parliamentary groups in the state parliament of Saxony-Anhalt to finally ensure stable and task-oriented basic funding for the universities of the state. We appeal to the senators of the Martin Luther University to clearly stand up for the unity of research and teaching, the preservation of "small subjects" and for the diversity of our university. Reason Several faculties will be closed, institutes will be cut, courses of study will be cancelled: this is the proposal for the future of the MLU, which will be decided on in the senate on Wednesday (June 2). While we are already suffering from massive cuts, the future is to become even bleaker. Without any scientific or professional justification, the courses of study in Greek Studies, Latin Studies, Indology, Japanese Studies, Language and Culture of South Asia, Middle and Neo-Latin Philology, Near Eastern Archaeology, Agricultural and Environmental Engineering, and Regional Cultures and Cultural Techniques, as well as the Institute of Ancient Studies and the Institute of Sports Science are to be closed forever. This is obviously not a matter of setting priorities in terms of content, but rather a barrage of cuts that will hit those areas where professors will be retiring in the near future. And it often hits the "small subjects", which are so valuable precisely because they are only taught at a few universities. But it is not only the students enrolled there who will be affected: we will all feel a significant deterioration in quality of learning, because according to the plans of the rectorate, 100 full-time positions will be eliminated, examination offices will be merged and faculties will be united: for example, Phil. Fak 1 will be dissolved and what remains of it will be assigned to the new faculties from Phil. Fak. 2 & 3 and in Political Science the chairs for Political Theory and Government are to be merged. (Philologische Fakultaeten: about the same as schools (UK)/colleges (US) of a university) Fewer researchers and fewer administrative staff, that is how the new concept can be summarized. And it will not stop there: subjects such as computer science are already named in the concept as needing reform, i.e. cuts, and the three natural science faculties are to be reduced to two anyway. Participation of the employees and students is apparently not desired, because the draft is to be decided without further discussion on Wednesday. The implementation is to begin in August and be completed by October 2022. We will not participate in this! It is clear to us that the financial situation of the MLU is bad. We know that the state government is failing to fund universities, and we demand that theMLU's base funding finally be stabilized and expanded. But we see above all that nothing justifies these massive cuts and the death of entire faculties. We appeal to the senators not to agree to this concept. We demand from the rectorate to immediately withdraw this concept and to seek a real dialogue with the faculties. We demand that the state government and the democratic parliamentary groups face up to this problem for the entire educational landscape in Saxony-Anhalt and fund the MLU. The loss for our higher education landscape will be much greater than the 15 million euros that will thus be taken out of the budget. On Mon, 31 May 2021 at 15:27, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > thank you for your willingness to help! > > This is the German text of the actual petition: > > Wir fordern das Rektorat der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > dazu auf, die massiven K?rzungspl?ne einzustellen und nicht wie geplant, 10 > Professuren zu schlie?en. Wir fordern die Landesregierung und die > demokratischen Fraktionen im Landtag von Sachsen-Anhalt dazu auf, endlich > eine stabile und aufgabengerechte Grundfinanzierung f?r die Hochschulen des > Landes sicherzustellen. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen der > Martin-Luther-Universit?t sich klar f?r die Einheit von Forschung und > Lehre, den Erhalt ?kleiner F?cher? und f?r die Vielfalt unserer Universit?t > einzusetzen. > Begr?ndung > > *Mehrere Fakult?ten werden geschlossen, Institute werden weggek?rzt, > Studieng?nge werden gestrichen*: So sieht die Vorlage zur Zukunft der MLU > aus, die am Mittwoch (2.6.) im Senat beschlossen werden soll. W?hrend wir > jetzt schon unter massiven Einschnitten leiden, soll die Zukunft noch > d?sterer werden. Ohne jede wissenschaftliche oder fachliche Begr?ndung > sollen die Studieng?nge Gr?zistik, Latinistik, Indologie, Japanologie, > Sprache und Kultur S?dasiens, Mittel- und Neulateinische Philologie, > Arch?ologie des Vorderorients, Land- und Umwelttechnik und Landeskulturen > und Kulturtechniken sowie das Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaft und das > f?r Sportwissenschaft f?r immer geschlossen werden. Dabei geht es > offensichtlich nicht um eine inhaltliche Schwerpunktsetzung, sondern um > einen K?rzungshammer, der dort einschl?gt, wo Lehrstuhlinhaber*innen in der > n?chsten Zeit in Rente gehen. Und es trifft vielfach die ?kleinen F?cher?, > die gerade deshalb so wertvoll sind, weil sie nur an wenigen Universit?ten > ?berhaupt gelehrt werden. Aber nicht nur die dort eingeschriebenen > Studierenden sind betroffen: *Wir alle werden eine deutliche > Verschlechterung der Studierbarkeit sp?ren*, denn nach den Pl?nen des > Rektorates fallen 100 Vollzeitstellen weg, Pr?fungs?mter werden fusioniert > und Fakult?ten vereinigt: so sollen beispielsweise die Phil. Fak 1 > aufgel?st und was von ihr ?brig bleibt den neuen Fakult?ten aus der Phil. > Fak. 2 & 3 zugeschlagen werden und in der Politikwissenschaft die > Lehrst?hle f?r Politische Theorie und Regierungslehre zusammengelegt werden. > > *Weniger Forscher:innen und weniger Verwaltungsangestellte, so l?sst sich > das neue Konzept zusammenfassen.* Und dabei wird es nicht bleiben: F?cher > wie die Informatik sind im Konzept schon als reformbed?rftig, d.h. > praktisch zu k?rzen, benannt und die drei naturwissenschaftlichen > Fakult?ten sollen ohnehin auf zwei reduziert werden. Eine Beteiligung der > Besch?ftigten und Studierenden ist scheinbar nicht erw?nscht, denn der > Entwurf soll ohne weitere Diskussion am *Mittwoch beschlossen werden. Die > Umsetzung soll im August beginnen und bis WS 2022 abgeschlossen sein.* > > Wir werden dabei nicht mitmachen! Uns ist klar, dass die Finanzlage der > MLU schlecht ist. Wir wissen, dass die Landesregierung bei der Finanzierung > der Hochschulen versagt und wir fordern, dass die Grundfinanzierung der MLU > endlich stabilisiert und ausgebaut wird. Aber wir sehen vor allem, dass > nichts diese massiven Einschnitte und das Absterben ganzer Fakult?ten > rechtfertigt. > > Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen, diesem Konzept nicht zuzustimmen. *Wir > fordern vom Rektorat, dieses Kahlschlagskonzept sofort zur?ckzuziehen und > einen echten Dialog mit den Fakult?ten zu suchen.* Wir fordern von der > Landesregierung und den demokratischen Fraktionen, sich diesem Problem f?r > die gesamte Bildungslandschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt zu stellen und die MLU > auszufinanzieren. Der Verlust f?r unsere Hochschullandschaft wird viel > gr??er sein als die 15 Millionen Euro, die dem Etat damit entzogen werden > sollen. > > > https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten > > Hope it works! > > Warm wishes, > > Walter > > Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:00 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk >: > >> Dear Walter >> >> Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the >> actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I >> could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push >> gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no >> petition (that I can see anyway) >> >> I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one >> with this experience. >> >> Best, >> Jonathan >> >> On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of >>> you, who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in >>> Germany: >>> >>> A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - >>> completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of >>> departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and >>> contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been >>> released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was >>> expected this summer semester. >>> >>> There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against the >>> planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, Latin, >>> Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near >>> Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of >>> Classics and the Department of Sports Science. >>> >>> If you would like to join the protest and support the process of filling >>> the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student Council of the >>> Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the Academic Senate >>> will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is therefore a certain >>> urgency in this matter. >>> >>> Yours sincerely, >>> Walter Slaje >>> >>> >>> https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> >> -- >> J. Silk >> Leiden University >> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> 2311 BZ Leiden >> The Netherlands >> >> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu >> copies of my publications may be found at >> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luther.obrock at gmail.com Mon May 31 13:57:09 2021 From: luther.obrock at gmail.com (luther obrock) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 09:57:09 -0400 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Walter, Thank you for sending this on. I have signed and I encourage others to do the same. The link you provided in the second message, https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten worked for me. Please do let us all know if there is any other ways to support the study of South Asian languages and cultures at the University of Halle, Best, Luther On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 9:45 AM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > While I am aware that many on this list read German fluently, I also know > that many don't. In that spirit, I respectfully offer the translation given > below. > > ? > > We call on the rectorate of the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg > to stop the massive cutback plans and not to cut 10 chairs/institutes as > planned. We call on the state government and the democratic parliamentary > groups in the state parliament of Saxony-Anhalt to finally ensure stable > and task-oriented basic funding for the universities of the state. We > appeal to the senators of the Martin Luther University to clearly stand up > for the unity of research and teaching, the preservation of "small > subjects" and for the diversity of our university. > > > > Reason > > Several faculties will be closed, institutes will be cut, courses of study > will be cancelled: this is the proposal for the future of the MLU, which > will be decided on in the senate on Wednesday (June 2). While we are > already suffering from massive cuts, the future is to become even bleaker. > Without any scientific or professional justification, the courses of study > in Greek Studies, Latin Studies, Indology, Japanese Studies, Language and > Culture of South Asia, Middle and Neo-Latin Philology, Near Eastern > Archaeology, Agricultural and Environmental Engineering, and Regional > Cultures and Cultural Techniques, as well as the Institute of Ancient > Studies and the Institute of Sports Science are to be closed forever. This > is obviously not a matter of setting priorities in terms of content, but > rather a barrage of cuts that will hit those areas where professors will be > retiring in the near future. And it often hits the "small subjects", which > are so valuable precisely because they are only taught at a few > universities. But it is not only the students enrolled there who will be > affected: we will all feel a significant deterioration in quality of > learning, because according to the plans of the rectorate, 100 full-time > positions will be eliminated, examination offices will be merged and > faculties will be united: for example, Phil. Fak 1 will be dissolved and > what remains of it will be assigned to the new faculties from Phil. Fak. 2 > & 3 and in Political Science the chairs for Political Theory and Government > are to be merged. (Philologische Fakultaeten: about the same as schools > (UK)/colleges (US) of a university) > > > > Fewer researchers and fewer administrative staff, that is how the new > concept can be summarized. And it will not stop there: subjects such as > computer science are already named in the concept as needing reform, i.e. > cuts, and the three natural science faculties are to be reduced to two > anyway. Participation of the employees and students is apparently not > desired, because the draft is to be decided without further discussion on > Wednesday. The implementation is to begin in August and be completed by > October 2022. > > > > We will not participate in this! It is clear to us that the financial > situation of the MLU is bad. We know that the state government is failing > to fund universities, and we demand that theMLU's base funding finally be > stabilized and expanded. But we see above all that nothing justifies these > massive cuts and the death of entire faculties. > > > > We appeal to the senators not to agree to this concept. We demand from the > rectorate to immediately withdraw this concept and to seek a real dialogue > with the faculties. We demand that the state government and the democratic > parliamentary groups face up to this problem for the entire educational > landscape in Saxony-Anhalt and fund the MLU. The loss for our higher > education landscape will be much greater than the 15 million euros that > will thus be taken out of the budget. > > > > On Mon, 31 May 2021 at 15:27, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> Dear Jonathan, >> >> thank you for your willingness to help! >> >> This is the German text of the actual petition: >> >> Wir fordern das Rektorat der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg >> dazu auf, die massiven K?rzungspl?ne einzustellen und nicht wie geplant, 10 >> Professuren zu schlie?en. Wir fordern die Landesregierung und die >> demokratischen Fraktionen im Landtag von Sachsen-Anhalt dazu auf, endlich >> eine stabile und aufgabengerechte Grundfinanzierung f?r die Hochschulen des >> Landes sicherzustellen. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen der >> Martin-Luther-Universit?t sich klar f?r die Einheit von Forschung und >> Lehre, den Erhalt ?kleiner F?cher? und f?r die Vielfalt unserer Universit?t >> einzusetzen. >> Begr?ndung >> >> *Mehrere Fakult?ten werden geschlossen, Institute werden weggek?rzt, >> Studieng?nge werden gestrichen*: So sieht die Vorlage zur Zukunft der >> MLU aus, die am Mittwoch (2.6.) im Senat beschlossen werden soll. W?hrend >> wir jetzt schon unter massiven Einschnitten leiden, soll die Zukunft noch >> d?sterer werden. Ohne jede wissenschaftliche oder fachliche Begr?ndung >> sollen die Studieng?nge Gr?zistik, Latinistik, Indologie, Japanologie, >> Sprache und Kultur S?dasiens, Mittel- und Neulateinische Philologie, >> Arch?ologie des Vorderorients, Land- und Umwelttechnik und Landeskulturen >> und Kulturtechniken sowie das Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaft und das >> f?r Sportwissenschaft f?r immer geschlossen werden. Dabei geht es >> offensichtlich nicht um eine inhaltliche Schwerpunktsetzung, sondern um >> einen K?rzungshammer, der dort einschl?gt, wo Lehrstuhlinhaber*innen in der >> n?chsten Zeit in Rente gehen. Und es trifft vielfach die ?kleinen F?cher?, >> die gerade deshalb so wertvoll sind, weil sie nur an wenigen Universit?ten >> ?berhaupt gelehrt werden. Aber nicht nur die dort eingeschriebenen >> Studierenden sind betroffen: *Wir alle werden eine deutliche >> Verschlechterung der Studierbarkeit sp?ren*, denn nach den Pl?nen des >> Rektorates fallen 100 Vollzeitstellen weg, Pr?fungs?mter werden fusioniert >> und Fakult?ten vereinigt: so sollen beispielsweise die Phil. Fak 1 >> aufgel?st und was von ihr ?brig bleibt den neuen Fakult?ten aus der Phil. >> Fak. 2 & 3 zugeschlagen werden und in der Politikwissenschaft die >> Lehrst?hle f?r Politische Theorie und Regierungslehre zusammengelegt werden. >> >> *Weniger Forscher:innen und weniger Verwaltungsangestellte, so l?sst sich >> das neue Konzept zusammenfassen.* Und dabei wird es nicht bleiben: >> F?cher wie die Informatik sind im Konzept schon als reformbed?rftig, d.h. >> praktisch zu k?rzen, benannt und die drei naturwissenschaftlichen >> Fakult?ten sollen ohnehin auf zwei reduziert werden. Eine Beteiligung der >> Besch?ftigten und Studierenden ist scheinbar nicht erw?nscht, denn der >> Entwurf soll ohne weitere Diskussion am *Mittwoch beschlossen werden. >> Die Umsetzung soll im August beginnen und bis WS 2022 abgeschlossen sein.* >> >> Wir werden dabei nicht mitmachen! Uns ist klar, dass die Finanzlage der >> MLU schlecht ist. Wir wissen, dass die Landesregierung bei der Finanzierung >> der Hochschulen versagt und wir fordern, dass die Grundfinanzierung der MLU >> endlich stabilisiert und ausgebaut wird. Aber wir sehen vor allem, dass >> nichts diese massiven Einschnitte und das Absterben ganzer Fakult?ten >> rechtfertigt. >> >> Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen, diesem Konzept nicht zuzustimmen. *Wir >> fordern vom Rektorat, dieses Kahlschlagskonzept sofort zur?ckzuziehen und >> einen echten Dialog mit den Fakult?ten zu suchen.* Wir fordern von der >> Landesregierung und den demokratischen Fraktionen, sich diesem Problem f?r >> die gesamte Bildungslandschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt zu stellen und die MLU >> auszufinanzieren. Der Verlust f?r unsere Hochschullandschaft wird viel >> gr??er sein als die 15 Millionen Euro, die dem Etat damit entzogen werden >> sollen. >> >> >> https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten >> >> Hope it works! >> >> Warm wishes, >> >> Walter >> >> Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:00 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk < >> kauzeya at gmail.com>: >> >>> Dear Walter >>> >>> Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the >>> actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I >>> could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push >>> gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no >>> petition (that I can see anyway) >>> >>> I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one >>> with this experience. >>> >>> Best, >>> Jonathan >>> >>> On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < >>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of >>>> you, who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in >>>> Germany: >>>> >>>> A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - >>>> completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of >>>> departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and >>>> contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been >>>> released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was >>>> expected this summer semester. >>>> >>>> There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against >>>> the planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, >>>> Latin, Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near >>>> Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of >>>> Classics and the Department of Sports Science. >>>> >>>> If you would like to join the protest and support the process of >>>> filling the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student >>>> Council of the Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the >>>> Academic Senate will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is >>>> therefore a certain urgency in this matter. >>>> >>>> Yours sincerely, >>>> Walter Slaje >>>> >>>> >>>> https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> J. Silk >>> Leiden University >>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>> The Netherlands >>> >>> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu >>> copies of my publications may be found at >>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Mon May 31 14:58:50 2021 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 16:58:50 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Luther, thank you! This first campaign of the petition only serves to make clear to the Senate meeting on Wednesday the resistance that the university and the state government would have to reckon with if the rectorate's decision were to be implemented. Perhaps the plan for this sacrilege in the humanities will fail already at this early stage. That would settle the matter. Only if it does not, other measures would have to be taken and the Ministry of Culture would have to be approached directly. In this case, I will gladly turn to the list for appropriate support. Warm wishes, Walter Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb luther obrock < luther.obrock at gmail.com>: > Dear Walter, > > Thank you for sending this on. I have signed and I encourage others to do > the same. The link you provided in the second message, > https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten worked > for me. Please do let us all know if there is any other ways to support the > study of South Asian languages and cultures at the University of Halle, > > Best, > > Luther > > On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 9:45 AM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> While I am aware that many on this list read German fluently, I also know >> that many don't. In that spirit, I respectfully offer the translation given >> below. >> >> ? >> >> We call on the rectorate of the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg >> to stop the massive cutback plans and not to cut 10 chairs/institutes as >> planned. We call on the state government and the democratic parliamentary >> groups in the state parliament of Saxony-Anhalt to finally ensure stable >> and task-oriented basic funding for the universities of the state. We >> appeal to the senators of the Martin Luther University to clearly stand up >> for the unity of research and teaching, the preservation of "small >> subjects" and for the diversity of our university. >> >> >> >> Reason >> >> Several faculties will be closed, institutes will be cut, courses of >> study will be cancelled: this is the proposal for the future of the MLU, >> which will be decided on in the senate on Wednesday (June 2). While we are >> already suffering from massive cuts, the future is to become even bleaker. >> Without any scientific or professional justification, the courses of study >> in Greek Studies, Latin Studies, Indology, Japanese Studies, Language and >> Culture of South Asia, Middle and Neo-Latin Philology, Near Eastern >> Archaeology, Agricultural and Environmental Engineering, and Regional >> Cultures and Cultural Techniques, as well as the Institute of Ancient >> Studies and the Institute of Sports Science are to be closed forever. This >> is obviously not a matter of setting priorities in terms of content, but >> rather a barrage of cuts that will hit those areas where professors will be >> retiring in the near future. And it often hits the "small subjects", which >> are so valuable precisely because they are only taught at a few >> universities. But it is not only the students enrolled there who will be >> affected: we will all feel a significant deterioration in quality of >> learning, because according to the plans of the rectorate, 100 full-time >> positions will be eliminated, examination offices will be merged and >> faculties will be united: for example, Phil. Fak 1 will be dissolved and >> what remains of it will be assigned to the new faculties from Phil. Fak. 2 >> & 3 and in Political Science the chairs for Political Theory and Government >> are to be merged. (Philologische Fakultaeten: about the same as schools >> (UK)/colleges (US) of a university) >> >> >> >> Fewer researchers and fewer administrative staff, that is how the new >> concept can be summarized. And it will not stop there: subjects such as >> computer science are already named in the concept as needing reform, i.e. >> cuts, and the three natural science faculties are to be reduced to two >> anyway. Participation of the employees and students is apparently not >> desired, because the draft is to be decided without further discussion on >> Wednesday. The implementation is to begin in August and be completed by >> October 2022. >> >> >> >> We will not participate in this! It is clear to us that the financial >> situation of the MLU is bad. We know that the state government is failing >> to fund universities, and we demand that theMLU's base funding finally be >> stabilized and expanded. But we see above all that nothing justifies these >> massive cuts and the death of entire faculties. >> >> >> >> We appeal to the senators not to agree to this concept. We demand from >> the rectorate to immediately withdraw this concept and to seek a real >> dialogue with the faculties. We demand that the state government and the >> democratic parliamentary groups face up to this problem for the entire >> educational landscape in Saxony-Anhalt and fund the MLU. The loss for our >> higher education landscape will be much greater than the 15 million euros >> that will thus be taken out of the budget. >> >> >> >> On Mon, 31 May 2021 at 15:27, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < >> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >> >>> Dear Jonathan, >>> >>> thank you for your willingness to help! >>> >>> This is the German text of the actual petition: >>> >>> Wir fordern das Rektorat der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg >>> dazu auf, die massiven K?rzungspl?ne einzustellen und nicht wie geplant, 10 >>> Professuren zu schlie?en. Wir fordern die Landesregierung und die >>> demokratischen Fraktionen im Landtag von Sachsen-Anhalt dazu auf, endlich >>> eine stabile und aufgabengerechte Grundfinanzierung f?r die Hochschulen des >>> Landes sicherzustellen. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen der >>> Martin-Luther-Universit?t sich klar f?r die Einheit von Forschung und >>> Lehre, den Erhalt ?kleiner F?cher? und f?r die Vielfalt unserer Universit?t >>> einzusetzen. >>> Begr?ndung >>> >>> *Mehrere Fakult?ten werden geschlossen, Institute werden weggek?rzt, >>> Studieng?nge werden gestrichen*: So sieht die Vorlage zur Zukunft der >>> MLU aus, die am Mittwoch (2.6.) im Senat beschlossen werden soll. W?hrend >>> wir jetzt schon unter massiven Einschnitten leiden, soll die Zukunft noch >>> d?sterer werden. Ohne jede wissenschaftliche oder fachliche Begr?ndung >>> sollen die Studieng?nge Gr?zistik, Latinistik, Indologie, Japanologie, >>> Sprache und Kultur S?dasiens, Mittel- und Neulateinische Philologie, >>> Arch?ologie des Vorderorients, Land- und Umwelttechnik und Landeskulturen >>> und Kulturtechniken sowie das Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaft und das >>> f?r Sportwissenschaft f?r immer geschlossen werden. Dabei geht es >>> offensichtlich nicht um eine inhaltliche Schwerpunktsetzung, sondern um >>> einen K?rzungshammer, der dort einschl?gt, wo Lehrstuhlinhaber*innen in der >>> n?chsten Zeit in Rente gehen. Und es trifft vielfach die ?kleinen F?cher?, >>> die gerade deshalb so wertvoll sind, weil sie nur an wenigen Universit?ten >>> ?berhaupt gelehrt werden. Aber nicht nur die dort eingeschriebenen >>> Studierenden sind betroffen: *Wir alle werden eine deutliche >>> Verschlechterung der Studierbarkeit sp?ren*, denn nach den Pl?nen des >>> Rektorates fallen 100 Vollzeitstellen weg, Pr?fungs?mter werden fusioniert >>> und Fakult?ten vereinigt: so sollen beispielsweise die Phil. Fak 1 >>> aufgel?st und was von ihr ?brig bleibt den neuen Fakult?ten aus der Phil. >>> Fak. 2 & 3 zugeschlagen werden und in der Politikwissenschaft die >>> Lehrst?hle f?r Politische Theorie und Regierungslehre zusammengelegt werden. >>> >>> *Weniger Forscher:innen und weniger Verwaltungsangestellte, so l?sst >>> sich das neue Konzept zusammenfassen.* Und dabei wird es nicht bleiben: >>> F?cher wie die Informatik sind im Konzept schon als reformbed?rftig, d.h. >>> praktisch zu k?rzen, benannt und die drei naturwissenschaftlichen >>> Fakult?ten sollen ohnehin auf zwei reduziert werden. Eine Beteiligung der >>> Besch?ftigten und Studierenden ist scheinbar nicht erw?nscht, denn der >>> Entwurf soll ohne weitere Diskussion am *Mittwoch beschlossen werden. >>> Die Umsetzung soll im August beginnen und bis WS 2022 abgeschlossen sein.* >>> >>> Wir werden dabei nicht mitmachen! Uns ist klar, dass die Finanzlage der >>> MLU schlecht ist. Wir wissen, dass die Landesregierung bei der Finanzierung >>> der Hochschulen versagt und wir fordern, dass die Grundfinanzierung der MLU >>> endlich stabilisiert und ausgebaut wird. Aber wir sehen vor allem, dass >>> nichts diese massiven Einschnitte und das Absterben ganzer Fakult?ten >>> rechtfertigt. >>> >>> Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen, diesem Konzept nicht zuzustimmen. *Wir >>> fordern vom Rektorat, dieses Kahlschlagskonzept sofort zur?ckzuziehen und >>> einen echten Dialog mit den Fakult?ten zu suchen.* Wir fordern von der >>> Landesregierung und den demokratischen Fraktionen, sich diesem Problem f?r >>> die gesamte Bildungslandschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt zu stellen und die MLU >>> auszufinanzieren. Der Verlust f?r unsere Hochschullandschaft wird viel >>> gr??er sein als die 15 Millionen Euro, die dem Etat damit entzogen werden >>> sollen. >>> >>> >>> https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten >>> >>> Hope it works! >>> >>> Warm wishes, >>> >>> Walter >>> >>> Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:00 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk < >>> kauzeya at gmail.com>: >>> >>>> Dear Walter >>>> >>>> Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the >>>> actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I >>>> could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push >>>> gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no >>>> petition (that I can see anyway) >>>> >>>> I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one >>>> with this experience. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Jonathan >>>> >>>> On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < >>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of >>>>> you, who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in >>>>> Germany: >>>>> >>>>> A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - >>>>> completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of >>>>> departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and >>>>> contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been >>>>> released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was >>>>> expected this summer semester. >>>>> >>>>> There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against >>>>> the planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, >>>>> Latin, Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near >>>>> Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of >>>>> Classics and the Department of Sports Science. >>>>> >>>>> If you would like to join the protest and support the process of >>>>> filling the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student >>>>> Council of the Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the >>>>> Academic Senate will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is >>>>> therefore a certain urgency in this matter. >>>>> >>>>> Yours sincerely, >>>>> Walter Slaje >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> J. Silk >>>> Leiden University >>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >>>> 2311 BZ Leiden >>>> The Netherlands >>>> >>>> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu >>>> copies of my publications may be found at >>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr Mon May 31 15:13:07 2021 From: Agnes.KORN at cnrs.fr (KORN Agnes) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 15:13:07 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B870F4066E@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> Dear all, Just to let you know that the board of the Society of Indo-European studies is about to send a letter to the presidency of Halle University, and we have also posted the petition on the FB page of the same Society (1091 members). Hope it all helps?. Best, Agnes De : INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] De la part de Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY Envoy? : lundi, 31 mai 2021 16:59 ? : luther obrock Cc : Indology Objet : Re: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle Dear Luther, thank you! This first campaign of the petition only serves to make clear to the Senate meeting on Wednesday the resistance that the university and the state government would have to reckon with if the rectorate's decision were to be implemented. Perhaps the plan for this sacrilege in the humanities will fail already at this early stage. That would settle the matter. Only if it does not, other measures would have to be taken and the Ministry of Culture would have to be approached directly. In this case, I will gladly turn to the list for appropriate support. Warm wishes, Walter Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb luther obrock >: Dear Walter, Thank you for sending this on. I have signed and I encourage others to do the same. The link you provided in the second message, https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten worked for me. Please do let us all know if there is any other ways to support the study of South Asian languages and cultures at the University of Halle, Best, Luther On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 9:45 AM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY > wrote: While I am aware that many on this list read German fluently, I also know that many don't. In that spirit, I respectfully offer the translation given below. ? We call on the rectorate of the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg to stop the massive cutback plans and not to cut 10 chairs/institutes as planned. We call on the state government and the democratic parliamentary groups in the state parliament of Saxony-Anhalt to finally ensure stable and task-oriented basic funding for the universities of the state. We appeal to the senators of the Martin Luther University to clearly stand up for the unity of research and teaching, the preservation of "small subjects" and for the diversity of our university. Reason Several faculties will be closed, institutes will be cut, courses of study will be cancelled: this is the proposal for the future of the MLU, which will be decided on in the senate on Wednesday (June 2). While we are already suffering from massive cuts, the future is to become even bleaker. Without any scientific or professional justification, the courses of study in Greek Studies, Latin Studies, Indology, Japanese Studies, Language and Culture of South Asia, Middle and Neo-Latin Philology, Near Eastern Archaeology, Agricultural and Environmental Engineering, and Regional Cultures and Cultural Techniques, as well as the Institute of Ancient Studies and the Institute of Sports Science are to be closed forever. This is obviously not a matter of setting priorities in terms of content, but rather a barrage of cuts that will hit those areas where professors will be retiring in the near future. And it often hits the "small subjects", which are so valuable precisely because they are only taught at a few universities. But it is not only the students enrolled there who will be affected: we will all feel a significant deterioration in quality of learning, because according to the plans of the rectorate, 100 full-time positions will be eliminated, examination offices will be merged and faculties will be united: for example, Phil. Fak 1 will be dissolved and what remains of it will be assigned to the new faculties from Phil. Fak. 2 & 3 and in Political Science the chairs for Political Theory and Government are to be merged. (Philologische Fakultaeten: about the same as schools (UK)/colleges (US) of a university) Fewer researchers and fewer administrative staff, that is how the new concept can be summarized. And it will not stop there: subjects such as computer science are already named in the concept as needing reform, i.e. cuts, and the three natural science faculties are to be reduced to two anyway. Participation of the employees and students is apparently not desired, because the draft is to be decided without further discussion on Wednesday. The implementation is to begin in August and be completed by October 2022. We will not participate in this! It is clear to us that the financial situation of the MLU is bad. We know that the state government is failing to fund universities, and we demand that theMLU's base funding finally be stabilized and expanded. But we see above all that nothing justifies these massive cuts and the death of entire faculties. We appeal to the senators not to agree to this concept. We demand from the rectorate to immediately withdraw this concept and to seek a real dialogue with the faculties. We demand that the state government and the democratic parliamentary groups face up to this problem for the entire educational landscape in Saxony-Anhalt and fund the MLU. The loss for our higher education landscape will be much greater than the 15 million euros that will thus be taken out of the budget. On Mon, 31 May 2021 at 15:27, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Jonathan, thank you for your willingness to help! This is the German text of the actual petition: Wir fordern das Rektorat der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg dazu auf, die massiven K?rzungspl?ne einzustellen und nicht wie geplant, 10 Professuren zu schlie?en. Wir fordern die Landesregierung und die demokratischen Fraktionen im Landtag von Sachsen-Anhalt dazu auf, endlich eine stabile und aufgabengerechte Grundfinanzierung f?r die Hochschulen des Landes sicherzustellen. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen der Martin-Luther-Universit?t sich klar f?r die Einheit von Forschung und Lehre, den Erhalt ?kleiner F?cher? und f?r die Vielfalt unserer Universit?t einzusetzen. Begr?ndung Mehrere Fakult?ten werden geschlossen, Institute werden weggek?rzt, Studieng?nge werden gestrichen: So sieht die Vorlage zur Zukunft der MLU aus, die am Mittwoch (2.6.) im Senat beschlossen werden soll. W?hrend wir jetzt schon unter massiven Einschnitten leiden, soll die Zukunft noch d?sterer werden. Ohne jede wissenschaftliche oder fachliche Begr?ndung sollen die Studieng?nge Gr?zistik, Latinistik, Indologie, Japanologie, Sprache und Kultur S?dasiens, Mittel- und Neulateinische Philologie, Arch?ologie des Vorderorients, Land- und Umwelttechnik und Landeskulturen und Kulturtechniken sowie das Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaft und das f?r Sportwissenschaft f?r immer geschlossen werden. Dabei geht es offensichtlich nicht um eine inhaltliche Schwerpunktsetzung, sondern um einen K?rzungshammer, der dort einschl?gt, wo Lehrstuhlinhaber*innen in der n?chsten Zeit in Rente gehen. Und es trifft vielfach die ?kleinen F?cher?, die gerade deshalb so wertvoll sind, weil sie nur an wenigen Universit?ten ?berhaupt gelehrt werden. Aber nicht nur die dort eingeschriebenen Studierenden sind betroffen: Wir alle werden eine deutliche Verschlechterung der Studierbarkeit sp?ren, denn nach den Pl?nen des Rektorates fallen 100 Vollzeitstellen weg, Pr?fungs?mter werden fusioniert und Fakult?ten vereinigt: so sollen beispielsweise die Phil. Fak 1 aufgel?st und was von ihr ?brig bleibt den neuen Fakult?ten aus der Phil. Fak. 2 & 3 zugeschlagen werden und in der Politikwissenschaft die Lehrst?hle f?r Politische Theorie und Regierungslehre zusammengelegt werden. Weniger Forscher:innen und weniger Verwaltungsangestellte, so l?sst sich das neue Konzept zusammenfassen. Und dabei wird es nicht bleiben: F?cher wie die Informatik sind im Konzept schon als reformbed?rftig, d.h. praktisch zu k?rzen, benannt und die drei naturwissenschaftlichen Fakult?ten sollen ohnehin auf zwei reduziert werden. Eine Beteiligung der Besch?ftigten und Studierenden ist scheinbar nicht erw?nscht, denn der Entwurf soll ohne weitere Diskussion am Mittwoch beschlossen werden. Die Umsetzung soll im August beginnen und bis WS 2022 abgeschlossen sein. Wir werden dabei nicht mitmachen! Uns ist klar, dass die Finanzlage der MLU schlecht ist. Wir wissen, dass die Landesregierung bei der Finanzierung der Hochschulen versagt und wir fordern, dass die Grundfinanzierung der MLU endlich stabilisiert und ausgebaut wird. Aber wir sehen vor allem, dass nichts diese massiven Einschnitte und das Absterben ganzer Fakult?ten rechtfertigt. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen, diesem Konzept nicht zuzustimmen. Wir fordern vom Rektorat, dieses Kahlschlagskonzept sofort zur?ckzuziehen und einen echten Dialog mit den Fakult?ten zu suchen. Wir fordern von der Landesregierung und den demokratischen Fraktionen, sich diesem Problem f?r die gesamte Bildungslandschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt zu stellen und die MLU auszufinanzieren. Der Verlust f?r unsere Hochschullandschaft wird viel gr??er sein als die 15 Millionen Euro, die dem Etat damit entzogen werden sollen. https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten Hope it works! Warm wishes, Walter Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:00 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk >: Dear Walter Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no petition (that I can see anyway) I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one with this experience. Best, Jonathan On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > wrote: Dear Colleagues, I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of you, who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in Germany: A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was expected this summer semester. There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against the planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, Latin, Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of Classics and the Department of Sports Science. If you would like to join the protest and support the process of filling the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student Council of the Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the Academic Senate will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is therefore a certain urgency in this matter. Yours sincerely, Walter Slaje https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clarsha at mcmaster.ca Mon May 31 15:22:02 2021 From: clarsha at mcmaster.ca (Clarke, Shayne) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 15:22:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Mon May 31 15:24:02 2021 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 17:24:02 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University of Halle In-Reply-To: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B870F4066E@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> References: <661B19CD3E570F4D995C9655E3EFA2B870F4066E@CNREXCMBX01P.core-res.rootcore.local> Message-ID: Dear Supporters, should someone wish to send a letter, please bear in mind to *always* direct it in the first place to the minister by cc'ing the vice chancellor ("Rektor") and the dean: 1) Prof. Dr. Armin Willingmann Ministerium f?r Wirtschaft, Wissenschaft und Digitalisierung des Landes Sachsen-Anhalt Hasselbachstra?e 4 D-39104 Magdeburg Email: vorzimmerMin at mw.sachsen-anhalt.de 2) Rektor: Prof. Dr. Christian Tietje Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg Universit?tsplatz 10 D-06108 Halle Email: rektor at uni-halle.de 3) Dekan: Prof. Dr. Fran?ois Bertemes Emil-Abderhalden-Stra?e 6 D-06108 Halle Email: dekan at philfak1.uni-halle.de The effect will be decidedly stronger. Thanking you, WS Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 17:14 Uhr schrieb KORN Agnes : > Dear all, > > Just to let you know that the board of the Society of Indo-European > studies is about to send a letter to the presidency of Halle University, > and we have also posted the petition on the FB page of the same Society > (1091 members). > > Hope it all helps?. > > > > Best, > > Agnes > > > > *De :* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *De la part > de* Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY > *Envoy? :* lundi, 31 mai 2021 16:59 > *? :* luther obrock > *Cc :* Indology > *Objet :* Re: [INDOLOGY] Protest against cutback plans at the University > of Halle > > > > Dear Luther, > > > > thank you! > > This first campaign of the petition only serves to make clear to the > Senate meeting on Wednesday the resistance that the university and the > state government would have to reckon with if the rectorate's decision were > to be implemented. Perhaps the plan for this sacrilege in the humanities > will fail already at this early stage. That would settle the matter. Only > if it does not, other measures would have to be taken and the Ministry of > Culture would have to be approached directly. In this case, I will gladly > turn to the list for appropriate support. > > > > Warm wishes, > > Walter > > > > > > > > Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb luther obrock < > luther.obrock at gmail.com>: > > Dear Walter, > > > > Thank you for sending this on. I have signed and I encourage others to do > the same. The link you provided in the second message, > https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten worked > for me. Please do let us all know if there is any other ways to support the > study of South Asian languages and cultures at the University of Halle, > > > > Best, > > > > Luther > > > > On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 9:45 AM Antonia Ruppel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > While I am aware that many on this list read German fluently, I also know > that many don't. In that spirit, I respectfully offer the translation given > below. > > > > ? > > > > We call on the rectorate of the Martin Luther University Halle-Wittenberg > to stop the massive cutback plans and not to cut 10 chairs/institutes as > planned. We call on the state government and the democratic parliamentary > groups in the state parliament of Saxony-Anhalt to finally ensure stable > and task-oriented basic funding for the universities of the state. We > appeal to the senators of the Martin Luther University to clearly stand up > for the unity of research and teaching, the preservation of "small > subjects" and for the diversity of our university. > > > > Reason > > Several faculties will be closed, institutes will be cut, courses of study > will be cancelled: this is the proposal for the future of the MLU, which > will be decided on in the senate on Wednesday (June 2). While we are > already suffering from massive cuts, the future is to become even bleaker. > Without any scientific or professional justification, the courses of study > in Greek Studies, Latin Studies, Indology, Japanese Studies, Language and > Culture of South Asia, Middle and Neo-Latin Philology, Near Eastern > Archaeology, Agricultural and Environmental Engineering, and Regional > Cultures and Cultural Techniques, as well as the Institute of Ancient > Studies and the Institute of Sports Science are to be closed forever. This > is obviously not a matter of setting priorities in terms of content, but > rather a barrage of cuts that will hit those areas where professors will be > retiring in the near future. And it often hits the "small subjects", which > are so valuable precisely because they are only taught at a few > universities. But it is not only the students enrolled there who will be > affected: we will all feel a significant deterioration in quality of > learning, because according to the plans of the rectorate, 100 full-time > positions will be eliminated, examination offices will be merged and > faculties will be united: for example, Phil. Fak 1 will be dissolved and > what remains of it will be assigned to the new faculties from Phil. Fak. 2 > & 3 and in Political Science the chairs for Political Theory and Government > are to be merged. (Philologische Fakultaeten: about the same as schools > (UK)/colleges (US) of a university) > > > > Fewer researchers and fewer administrative staff, that is how the new > concept can be summarized. And it will not stop there: subjects such as > computer science are already named in the concept as needing reform, i.e. > cuts, and the three natural science faculties are to be reduced to two > anyway. Participation of the employees and students is apparently not > desired, because the draft is to be decided without further discussion on > Wednesday. The implementation is to begin in August and be completed by > October 2022. > > > > We will not participate in this! It is clear to us that the financial > situation of the MLU is bad. We know that the state government is failing > to fund universities, and we demand that theMLU's base funding finally be > stabilized and expanded. But we see above all that nothing justifies these > massive cuts and the death of entire faculties. > > > > We appeal to the senators not to agree to this concept. We demand from the > rectorate to immediately withdraw this concept and to seek a real dialogue > with the faculties. We demand that the state government and the democratic > parliamentary groups face up to this problem for the entire educational > landscape in Saxony-Anhalt and fund the MLU. The loss for our higher > education landscape will be much greater than the 15 million euros that > will thus be taken out of the budget. > > > > > > On Mon, 31 May 2021 at 15:27, Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Jonathan, > > > > thank you for your willingness to help! > > > > This is the German text of the actual petition: > > Wir fordern das Rektorat der Martin-Luther-Universit?t Halle-Wittenberg > dazu auf, die massiven K?rzungspl?ne einzustellen und nicht wie geplant, 10 > Professuren zu schlie?en. Wir fordern die Landesregierung und die > demokratischen Fraktionen im Landtag von Sachsen-Anhalt dazu auf, endlich > eine stabile und aufgabengerechte Grundfinanzierung f?r die Hochschulen des > Landes sicherzustellen. Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen der > Martin-Luther-Universit?t sich klar f?r die Einheit von Forschung und > Lehre, den Erhalt ?kleiner F?cher? und f?r die Vielfalt unserer Universit?t > einzusetzen. > Begr?ndung > > *Mehrere Fakult?ten werden geschlossen, Institute werden weggek?rzt, > Studieng?nge werden gestrichen*: So sieht die Vorlage zur Zukunft der MLU > aus, die am Mittwoch (2.6.) im Senat beschlossen werden soll. W?hrend wir > jetzt schon unter massiven Einschnitten leiden, soll die Zukunft noch > d?sterer werden. Ohne jede wissenschaftliche oder fachliche Begr?ndung > sollen die Studieng?nge Gr?zistik, Latinistik, Indologie, Japanologie, > Sprache und Kultur S?dasiens, Mittel- und Neulateinische Philologie, > Arch?ologie des Vorderorients, Land- und Umwelttechnik und Landeskulturen > und Kulturtechniken sowie das Institut f?r Altertumswissenschaft und das > f?r Sportwissenschaft f?r immer geschlossen werden. Dabei geht es > offensichtlich nicht um eine inhaltliche Schwerpunktsetzung, sondern um > einen K?rzungshammer, der dort einschl?gt, wo Lehrstuhlinhaber*innen in der > n?chsten Zeit in Rente gehen. Und es trifft vielfach die ?kleinen F?cher?, > die gerade deshalb so wertvoll sind, weil sie nur an wenigen Universit?ten > ?berhaupt gelehrt werden. Aber nicht nur die dort eingeschriebenen > Studierenden sind betroffen: *Wir alle werden eine deutliche > Verschlechterung der Studierbarkeit sp?ren*, denn nach den Pl?nen des > Rektorates fallen 100 Vollzeitstellen weg, Pr?fungs?mter werden fusioniert > und Fakult?ten vereinigt: so sollen beispielsweise die Phil. Fak 1 > aufgel?st und was von ihr ?brig bleibt den neuen Fakult?ten aus der Phil. > Fak. 2 & 3 zugeschlagen werden und in der Politikwissenschaft die > Lehrst?hle f?r Politische Theorie und Regierungslehre zusammengelegt werden. > > *Weniger Forscher:innen und weniger Verwaltungsangestellte, so l?sst sich > das neue Konzept zusammenfassen.* Und dabei wird es nicht bleiben: F?cher > wie die Informatik sind im Konzept schon als reformbed?rftig, d.h. > praktisch zu k?rzen, benannt und die drei naturwissenschaftlichen > Fakult?ten sollen ohnehin auf zwei reduziert werden. Eine Beteiligung der > Besch?ftigten und Studierenden ist scheinbar nicht erw?nscht, denn der > Entwurf soll ohne weitere Diskussion am *Mittwoch beschlossen werden. Die > Umsetzung soll im August beginnen und bis WS 2022 abgeschlossen sein.* > > Wir werden dabei nicht mitmachen! Uns ist klar, dass die Finanzlage der > MLU schlecht ist. Wir wissen, dass die Landesregierung bei der Finanzierung > der Hochschulen versagt und wir fordern, dass die Grundfinanzierung der MLU > endlich stabilisiert und ausgebaut wird. Aber wir sehen vor allem, dass > nichts diese massiven Einschnitte und das Absterben ganzer Fakult?ten > rechtfertigt. > > Wir appellieren an die Senator*innen, diesem Konzept nicht zuzustimmen. *Wir > fordern vom Rektorat, dieses Kahlschlagskonzept sofort zur?ckzuziehen und > einen echten Dialog mit den Fakult?ten zu suchen.* Wir fordern von der > Landesregierung und den demokratischen Fraktionen, sich diesem Problem f?r > die gesamte Bildungslandschaft in Sachsen-Anhalt zu stellen und die MLU > auszufinanzieren. Der Verlust f?r unsere Hochschullandschaft wird viel > gr??er sein als die 15 Millionen Euro, die dem Etat damit entzogen werden > sollen. > > > https://www.openpetition.de/petition/online/kahlschlag-an-der-mlu-verhindern-fakultaeten-retten > > Hope it works! > > Warm wishes, > > Walter > > > > Am Mo., 31. Mai 2021 um 15:00 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Silk >: > > Dear Walter > > > > Probably I am just missing it, but before signing I wanted to read the > actual petition, but following the link while I found a page to sign, I > could not find the actual petition --what am i missing? every button I push > gets me back to the same page, with the signature submission but no > petition (that I can see anyway) > > > > I send this to the list since it is possible that I am not the only one > with this experience. > > > > Best, > > Jonathan > > > > On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 11:06 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > I would like to bring the following news to the attention of those of you, > who have a stake in the continued existence of Indian Studies in Germany: > > A few days ago, the rectorate of the University of Halle adopted - > completely unexpectedly - a cutback plan to eliminate a whole number of > departments. Among them is the study of India in both its historical and > contemporary aspects. Two professorships for these areas had already been > released for re-filling. The announcement for the two positions was > expected this summer semester. > > There is a massive protest inside and outside the university against the > planned permanent closure of, among others, the programs in Greek, Latin, > Indology, Japanese Studies, South Asian Languages and Cultures, Near > Eastern Archaeology, Political Sciences as well as the Department of > Classics and the Department of Sports Science. > > > > If you would like to join the protest and support the process of filling > the vacancies, please sign the petition below of the Student Council of the > Faculty of Humanities. Already on Wednesday this week the Academic Senate > will discuss this decision of the Rectorate. There is therefore a certain > urgency in this matter. > > Yours sincerely, > Walter Slaje > > > https://hallespektrum.de/nachrichten/bildung/protest-gegen-kuerzungsplaene-an-der-uni-halle-fachschaft-ruft-zu-demo-auf-und-startet-petition/399781/ > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scharfpm7 at gmail.com Mon May 31 19:09:23 2021 From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf) Date: Mon, 31 May 2021 14:09:23 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Summer Intensive Sanskrit course with on-line interactive exercises Message-ID: <34AC01F3-C3D2-461D-9DFC-34B05DFA54D3@gmail.com> The Sanskrit Library would like to announce its an intensive summer Introductory Sanskrit courses using on-line interactive exercises that offer immediate feedback. Take a look at a few images of our on-line course platform: Welcome Transliteration Transliteration error flagging Sandhi error flagging Morphological identification Translation assistance We are also offering an advanced course in traditional Sanskrit grammar, a course in Sanskri