From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 00:33:35 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 21 18:33:35 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems
In-Reply-To: <97fbc528-8c7b-8764-b849-b2a359929d67@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <F5946E9D-0E30-4390-977C-BFB529B0ABF4@aol.com>

Dear JLC,

 

Thank you for mentioning the interesting case of aruvi ?mpal. If one goes by the definition of ve?ippa?ai as given in the Tamil Lexicon that the meaning of an ambiguous word should be disambiguated by a qualifying word, then aruvi ?mpal does not conform to that definition since in the case of aruvi ?mpal in Pati??uppattu 63, aruvi is really made up of aru+vi, a compound. Moreover, the expression a?ai a?uppu a?iy? is already there to clarify that ?mpal is a number and not a flower. Thus, aruvi simply provides information in addition to a?ai a?uppu a?iy? that ?mpal is not a flower. The modern commentator Aru?ampalava??r also does not call it ve?ippa?ai. 

 

Regards,

Palaniappan 

 

?On 2/25/21, 2:34 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

 

??? * chose

??? --> "chosen"

 

 

??? On 25/02/2021 09:13, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:

??? > Dear Palaniappan,

??? > 

????> thanks for this.

??? > 

????> Maybe one could add to the list of such usages the phrase ????? ??????? 

????> [aruvi y-?mpal], which was considered as striking enough to be chose as 

????> a title for the poem Pati??uppattu 63 (which is part of the decade 

????> composed by Kapilar)

??? > 

????> -- Jean-Luc

??? > 

????> https://twitter.com/JLC1956

??? > 

????> 

????> On 24/02/2021 21:07, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

??? >> Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.

??? >>

??? >> Sorry.

??? >>

??? >> Regards,

??? >> Palaniappan

??? >>

??? >> ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" <palaniappa at aol.com> 

????>> wrote:

??? >>

??? >>????? Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.

??? >>

??? >>????? Regards,

??? >>????? Palaniappan

??? >>

??? >>????? ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" 

????>> <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

??? >>

??? >>????????? Dear JLC,

??? >>

??? >>????????? Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time 

????>> ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical 

????>> Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this 

????>> technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains 

????>> the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an 

????>> ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- 

????>> v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? 

????>> ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by 

????>> this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called 

????>> 've?ippa?ai'.? Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one 

????>> such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by 

????>> 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The 

????>> commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am 

????>> 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). 

????>> However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages.

??? >>

??? >>????????? That is why I was surprised that commentators like 

????>> V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap 

????>> p??a?'.

??? >>

??? >>????????? Regards,

??? >>????????? Palaniappan

??? >>

??? >>

??? >>????????? ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" 

????>> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

??? >>

??? >>????????????? For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a 

????>> Tamil mailing list,

??? >>????????????? see:

??? >>

??? >>????????????? 

????>> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ

??? >>

??? >>

??? >>????????????? 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????)

??? >>????????????? 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????)

??? >>????????????? 3. ?????? ????? (????????)

??? >>????????????? 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????)

??? >>????????????? 5. ???? ???? (????????)

??? >>????????????? 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????)

??? >>????????????? 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????)

??? >>????????????? 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????)

??? >>

??? >>

??? >>????????????? -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard

??? >>

??? >>

??? >>????????????? https://twitter.com/JLC1956

??? >>

??? >>

??? >>????????????? On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via 

????>> INDOLOGY wrote:

??? >>????????????? > Dear Herman,

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in 

????>> Indology, why

??? >>????????????? > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in 

????>> all occurrences

??? >>????????????? > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning 

????>> ?a priest? in

??? >>????????????? > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I 

????>> have discussed

??? >>????????????? > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in 

????>> Indology.)

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances 

????>> where a homonym is

??? >>????????????? > used in an expression following a verb used as a 

????>> negative adjectival

??? >>????????????? > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression 

????>> cannot be used with

??? >>????????????? > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other 

????>> unique meaning.

??? >>????????????? > Here are some examples.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12)

??? >>????????????? > Here /na?avu/? can mean toddy as well as a city in the 

????>> C?ra domain. The

??? >>????????????? > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370)

??? >>????????????? > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of 

????>> dance. The NAP

??? >>????????????? > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>?????????? ???> /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1)

??? >>????????????? > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The 

????>> NAP v???

??? >>????????????? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > /eyy? varivil/ ?(Aka. 192.4)

??? >>????????????? > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of 

????>> material tied around

??? >>????????????? > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and 

????>> ?/ey/? means ?to

??? >>????????????? > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is 

????>> used to indicate

??? >>????????????? > the rainbow.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can 

????>> sometimes be linked by

??? >>????????????? > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. 

????>> They can also be

??? >>????????????? > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated 

????>> by the homonym

??? >>????????????? > can use the same verb we need to look at other 

????>> contextual information

??? >>????????????? > provided.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 

????>> or 52-55 or 52-56

??? >>????????????? > according to different commentators) deals with this 

????>> use of homonyms.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are 

????>> not dealing with

??? >>????????????? > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper 

????>> versus dance.

??? >>????????????? > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology

??? >>????????????? > 

????>> (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA 

????>>

??? >>????????????? > 

????>> <https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA>), 

????>>

??? >>????????????? > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards 

????>> and warriors.

??? >>????????????? > So, in these cases, we are talking about different 

????>> subsets of a single

??? >>????????????? > community that perform different functions and the 

????>> poets use the same

??? >>????????????? > general technique we described above to uniquely 

????>> identify the subset.

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? > Regards,

??? >>????????????? > Palaniappan

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? >

??? >>????????????? >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H.

??? >>????????????? >> <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl

??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >> Dear Palaniappan,

??? >>????????????? >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other 

????>> examples

??? >>????????????? >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it 

????>> would appear that

??? >>????????????? >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to 

????>> something like a

??? >>????????????? >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not 

????>> restricted to

??? >>????????????? >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, 

????>> before being able to

??? >>????????????? >> say something more in this line we have to have more 

????>> examples of this

??? >>????????????? >> type of compound.

??? >>????????????? >> Herman

??? >>????????????? >>

? ??>>????????????? >> Herman Tieken

??? >>????????????? >> Stationsweg 58

??? >>????????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag

??? >>????????????? >> The Netherlands

??? >>????????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127

??? >>????????????? >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>

??? >>????????????? >> 

????>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? >>????????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info

? ??>>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> namens 

????>> Tieken, H.J.H.

??? >>????????????? >> via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info

??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>

??? >>????????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26

??? >>????????????? >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology

??? >>????????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical 

????>> Tamil Poems

??? >>????????????? >> Dear Palaniappan,

??? >>????????????? >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, 

????>> as is that

??? >>????????????? >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of 

????>> this type of

??? >>????????????? >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p 

????>> p?rppa?/ Wilden's

??? >>????????????? >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as 

????>> follows: we would

??? >>????????????? >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) 

????>> making a living

??? >>????????????? >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable 

????>> to do so by

??? >>????????????? >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your 

????>> interpretation applies: we

??? >>????????????? >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name 

????>> as a brahmin

??? >>????????????? >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter 

????>> by/v?l??/.

??? >>????????????? >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil 

????>> Ca?kam Poetry:

??? >>????????????? >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. 

????>> p. 294-5 and

??? >>????????????? >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf 

????>> link on my website)

??? >>????????? ????>>

??? >>????????????? >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article 

????>> at hand, but I

??? >>????????????? >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert 

????>> van Daalen in "A

??? >>????????????? >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ 

????>> at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7

??? >>????????????? >> (1979), 171-189.

??? >>????????????? >> With kind regards

??? >>????????????? >> Herman

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >> Herman Tieken

??? >>????????????? >> Stationsweg 58

??? >>????????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag

??? >>????????????? >> The Netherlands

??? >>????????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127

??? >>????????????? >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>

??? >>????????????? >> 

????>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? >>????????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info

??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> namens 

????>> Sudalaimuthu

??? >>????????????? >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info

??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>

??? >>????????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14

??? >>????????????? >> *Aan:*Indology List

??? >>????????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical 

????>> Tamil Poems

??? >>????????????? >> I am reposting after correcting some typos.

??? >>????????????? >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s 

????>> interpretation of

??? >>????????????? >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes 

????>> these comments in

??? >>????????????? >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of 

????>> his commentary on

??? >>????????????? >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do 

????>> not know if he has

??? >>????????????? >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems.

??? >>????????????? >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler 

????>> P??a? belonged to

??? >>????????????? >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that 

????>> did not engage in

??? >>????????????? >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling 

????>> the land. He

??? >>????????????? >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed 

????>> earlier in the

??? >>????????????? >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? 

????>> were later

??? >>????????????? >> called? V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and 

????>> V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s

??? >>????????????? >> interpretation has been accepted by many later 

????>> scholars such as Ve.

??? >>????????????? >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 

????>> 141). This confirms

??? >>????????????? >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not 

????>> making music?. (For

??? >>????????????? >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music 

????>> making, see

??? >>????????? ????>> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.)

??? >>????????????? >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical 

????>> edition of

??? >>????????????? >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text 

????>> ?/e??[a]p p??a?/?

??? >>????????????? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden 

????>> got only half of

??? >>????????????? >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the 

????>> bard?. But, Wilden

??? >>????????????? >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 

????>> 'to rise'. It

??? >>????????????? >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed 

????>> musical instrument;

??? >>????????????? >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is 

????>> ?the bard who does

??? >>????????????? >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the 

????>> converse of/'por?ap

??? >>????????????? >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting 

????>> warriors? is used to

??? >>????????????? >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can 

????>> be denoted by

??? >>????????????? >> the word ?porunar?.

??? >>????????????? >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to 

????>> describe

??? >>???????????? ?>> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of 

????>> the name of the

??? >>????????????? >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, 

????>> ?/p??a?,?/and not

??? >>????????????? >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic 

????>> origin/./ But, we know

??? >>????????????? >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from 

????>> Pu?am 302. But,

??? >>????????????? >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we 

????>> have that

??? >>????????????? >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 

????>> according to which the

??? >>????????????? >> chief ?ri? gave ?the good country with small hills to 

????>> K??iyar?. Pillai

??? >>????????????? >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, 

????>> P??ar were known

??? >>????????????? >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, 

????>> K??iyar, Iyavar, and

??? >>????????????? >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have 

????>> received some

??? >>????????????? >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil 

????>> region, which could

??? >>????????????? >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became 

????>> the B??as.

??? >>????????????? >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not 

????>> impossible for one to

??? >>????????????? >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple 

????>> inscription South

??? >>????????????? >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several 

????>> members of the

??? >>????????????? >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai 

????>> V??aikk?rar, Terinta

??? >>????????????? >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians 

????>> (pp.299-300).

??? >>????????????? >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern 

????>> Tamil border area

??? >>????????????? >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As 

????>> I already noted

??? >>????????????? >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the 

????>> Cudappah district

??? >>????????????? >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen 

????>> to drift all the

??? >>????????????? >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th 

????>> century Mahad?

??? >>????????????? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman.

??? >>????????????? >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an 

????>> ally of Ka??i who

??? >>????????????? >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king 

????>> Titta? Ve?iya?.

??? >>????????????? >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the 

????>> Ch??a king, the

??? >>????????????? >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like 

????>> V??ka?ac?mi N????r

??? >>????????????? >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily 

????>> add a word

??? >>????????????? >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to 

????>> come up with the

??? >>????????????? >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? 

????>> is preceded by

??? >>????????????? >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by 

????>> the subject of the

??? >>????????????? >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was 

????>> influenced by

??? >>?????????? ???>> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? 

????>> as an ally of

??? >>????????????? >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has 

????>> followed N?tt?r?s

??? >>????????????? >> interpretation.

??? >>????????????? >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of 

????>> Love.Institut Fran?ais

??? >>????????????? >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.

??? >>????????????? >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, 

????>> Citamparam.

??? >>????????????? >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai 

????>> ?kum Akan????u

??? >>????????????? >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, 

????>> Mayil?pp?r.

??? >>????????????? >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 

????>> 1946.

??? >>??????? ??????>> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. 

????>> Tirunelv?li,

??? >>????????????? >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai.

??? >>????????????? >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya 

????>> Ai?ku?un??u

??? >>????????????? >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip 

????>> palkalaik

??? >>????????????? >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu.

??? >>??? ??????????>> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. 

????>> P???a?

??? >>????????????? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai.

??? >>????????????? >> Eva Wilden, 2018.? A Critical Edition and an Annotated 

????>> Translation of

??? >>????????????? >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise 

????>> D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut

??? >>????????????? >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.

??? >>????????????? >> Regards,

??? >>????????????? >> Palaniappan

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???? On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com

??? >>????????????? >>???? <mailto:palaniappa at aol.com>wrote:

??? >>????????????? >>???? Dear George,

??? >>????????????? >>???? I appreciate your comments.

??? >>????????????? >>???? As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic 

????>> fonts too whenever

??? >>????????????? >>???? possible. In my first post, I did use the 

????>> diacritic fonts. But,

??? >>????????????? >>???? when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic 

????>> fonts in my

??? >>????????????? >>???? earlier post showed up as question marks in my 

????>> Mac. Since there

??? >>????????????? >>???? were not too many participants in the thread, to 

????>> be safe, I

??? >>????????????? >>???? resorted to the transliteration I used.

??? >>????????????? >>???? Thanks

??? >>????????????? >>???? Regards,

??? >>????????????? >>???? Palaniappan

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???? -----Original Message-----

?? ?>>????????????? >>???? From: George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU 

????>> <mailto:glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>>

??? >>????????????? >>???? To: INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk

??? >>????????????? >>???? <mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>>

??? >>????????????? >>???? Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm

??? >>????????????? >>???? Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical 

????>> Tamil Poems

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???? Dear Palaniappan,

??? >>????????????? >>???? I think you have made a good case for P??a? and 

????>> B??a, and

??? >>????????????? >>???? especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as 

????>> even the

??? >>????????????? >>???? alliteration works.? I hope you publish this, as 

????>> it is

??? >>????????????? >>???? significant, I think.? I am still not convinced by 

????>> what you say

??? >>????????????? >>???? about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after 

????>> reading many Sangam

??? >>????????????? >>???? poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your

??? >>???????????? ?>>???? interpretation just doesn't sound right to me.? Of 

????>> course, that

??? >>????????????? >>???? doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's 

????>> really no way to

??? >>????????????? >>???? tell.? If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, 

????>> more likely, in

??? >>????????????? >>???? the middle of one side playing their drums), and a 

????>> battle started,

??? >>????????????? >>???? they'd still be looking in front and behind them 

????>> to avoid being

??? >>????????????? >>???? killed.? Thanks for an intriguing and informative 

????>> analysis.

??? >>????????????? >>???? One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's 

????>> very hard to read

??? >>??????? ??????>>???? the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks.? 

????>> I believe every

??? >>????????????? >>???? OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit 

????>> unicode.

??? >>????????????? >>???? George

??? >>????????????? >>???? On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan

??? >>????????????? >>???? <Palaniappa at AOL.COM <mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM>> 

????>> wrote:

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Dear George,

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Please see the attached inscription. What can 

????>> one say about

??? >>????????????? >>???????? the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? 

????>> Which comes

??? >>????????????? >>???????? first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The 

????>> modifier 'peru' is

??? >>????????????? >>???????? found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar 

????>> (mentioned in

??? >>????????????? >>???????? nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, 

????>> etc. The title

??? >>????????????? >>???????? peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also 

????>> used in connection

??? >>????????????? >>???????? with different professions as in perumpANan2 

????>> and perunAvican2.

??? >>????????? ????>>???????? Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa?

??? >>????????????? >>???????? First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a 

????>> dynasty is very

??? >>????????????? >>???????? unusual. The only other so-called dynastic 

????>> title I know of,

 ???>>????????????? >>???????? bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at 

????>> all. In fact, in

??? >>????????????? >>???????? the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, 

????>> according to K.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply 

????>> used the gotra

??? >>????????????? >>???????? names in the absence of dynastic names.? 

????>> (Early History of the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is 

????>> only in the

??? >>???????? ?????>>???????? tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence 

????>> of 'bRhad-bANa'.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the 

????>> members of the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In 

????>> other words we

??? >>????????????? >>???????? only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in 

????>> Tamil we find many

??? >>????????????? >>???????? instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? This leads one to infer that the author of the 

????>> tALagunda

??? >>????????????? >>???????? inscription was simply translating the name 

????>> perumpANan2 into

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal 

????>> -m- is pronounced

??? >>????????????? >>???????? as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered 

????>> the first

??? >>????????????? >>???????? component as bRhad and kept the second part as 

????>> bANa. This

 ???>>????????????? >>???????? suggests that the original form of the 

????>> dynastic name should

??? >>????????????? >>???????? have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that 

????>> in the Kannada

??? >>????????????? >>???????? and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced 

????>> as 'bANa' either

??? >>????????????? >>???????? independently or influenced by the 

????>> pronunciation of '- pANan2'

??? >>????????????? >>???????? in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' .? Once the 

????>> stand-alone form

??? >>?????? ???????>>???????? 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using 

????>> a Sanskrit

??? >>????????????? >>???????? mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to 

????>> mahAbali, father

??? >>????????????? >>???????? of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic 

????>> title as 'bANa'.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back 

????>> into Tamil, Skt.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? bANa > Ta. vANa-.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription 

????>> no. 1971/54 of the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a 

????>> vANakO atiraicar. In

??? >>????????????? >>???????? the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th 

????>> year of the same

??? >>????????????? >>???????? king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to 

????>> the homophon

??? >>????????????? >>???????? indicating bard as well as the chieftain 

????>> suggesting in this

??? >>????????????? >>???????? case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' 

????>> too with

??? >>????????????? >>???????? word-initial p-.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? As for the domicile and area controlled by the 

????>> pANan2/bANa

??? >>????????????? >>???????? chiefs, it has varied historically. They might 

????>> have started

??? >>????????????? >>???????? near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu 

????>> inscription is found

??? >>????????????? >>???? ????mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of 

????>> akam.155

??? >>????????????? >>???????? mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 

????>> 629 for a

??? >>????????????? >>???????? discussion of this.) Then they could have 

????>> moved north so that

??? >>????????????? >>???????? by the 4th century they are found near 

????>> zrIparvata hill. After

??? >>????????????? >>???????? serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola 

????>> dynasties, in the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with 

????>> titles such as

??? >>????????????? >>???????? mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., 

????>> controlling parts

??? >>???????? ?????>>???????? of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As 

????>> a parallel case,

??? >>????????????? >>???????? it should be noted that a branch of the 

????>> Cholas, Telugu Cholas,

??? >>????????????? >>????????? were controlling areas around Sonepur in 

????>> Orissa in the 12th

??? >>????????????? >>???????? century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit 

????>> tracing their descent

??? >>????????????? >>???????? to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) 

????>> progressively

??? >>????????????? >>???????? moving northeast from the area to the north of 

????>> the Tamil

??? >>????????????? >>???????? country over several centuries.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 

????>> 113 and 226

??? >>????????????? >>? ???????referred to one or more members of the same 

????>> lineage later

??? >>????????????? >>???????? called the bANas.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned 

????>> in akam 44 as

??? >>????????????? >>???????? well as kuRuntokai 11. See below.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 

????>> 44.8)/

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8)

??? >>????????????? >>???????? We should take the dynatic names mentioned 

????>> here as individuals

??? >>????????????? >>???????? belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like 

????>> the bAnas, these

??? >>???????????? ?>>???????? dynasties were also in the northern border of 

????>> the Tamil

??? >>????????????? >>???????? country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western 

????>> Ganga dynasty.

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it 

????>> is not

??? >>????????????? >>???????? surprising that pANar allied themselves with 

????>> vicci or kaTTi.

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 

????>> is of the same

??? >>????????????? >>? ???????nature as in akam. 336 below.

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????? ????>>???????? /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 

????>> 336.20-23)

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the 

????>> cOza fighters.

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below 

????>> referring to the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? cOza fighters

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8)

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would 

????>> have joined the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? battle on the side of the vicciyar who might 

????>> be led by their

??? >>??? ??????????>>???????? chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 

????>> chief might

??? >>????????????? >>???????? have sent his forces without joining them.

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? As for non-fighters standing between the two 

????>> armies, I

??? >>????????????? >>???????? consider it highly unlikely they were standing 

????>> in between the

??? >>????????????? >>???????? fighting armies. They have to be really 

????>> standing on the side

??? >>????????????? >>???????? while the battle is raging and in that case 

????>> they will only

??? >>????????????? >>???????? move their gaze from side to side and not 

????>> front and back. So I

??? >>????????????? >>???????? do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid 

????>> here. At least if

??? >>????????????? >>???????? the description applies to the fighters, then 

????>> their behavior

??? >>????????????? >>???????? will parallel the warriors whether it is their 

????>> fierce look or

??? >>??? ??????????>>???????? looking forward and backward, So, the looking 

????>> persons should

??? >>????????????? >>???????? be fighters and not bards.

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Regards,

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? Palaniappan

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >>???????? <Perumpanan_0004.jpg>

??? >>????????????? >>

??? >>????????????? >> _______________________________________________ 

????>> INDOLOGY mailing

??? >>????????????? >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info

??? >>????????????? >> 

????>> <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>indology-owner at list.indology.info

??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>(messages to 

????>> the list's

??? >>????????????? >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info

??? >>????????????? >> <http://listinfo.indology.info/>(where you can change 

????>> your list

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??? >>????????????? >

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??? >>????????????? > _______________________________________________

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??? >>????????????? > To unsubscribe send an email to 

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From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 00:45:18 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 21 18:45:18 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems
In-Reply-To: <F5946E9D-0E30-4390-977C-BFB529B0ABF4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <40F43A10-96EA-414A-A29B-9FE057D8433F@aol.com>

I meant to add that Auvai Turaic?my Pi??ai, however, considers aruvi ?mpal a case of ve?ippa?ai.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

From: "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>
Date: Monday, March 1, 2021 at 6:33 PM
To: Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>, <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems

 

Dear JLC,

 

Thank you for mentioning the interesting case of aruvi ?mpal. If one goes by the definition of ve?ippa?ai as given in the Tamil Lexicon that the meaning of an ambiguous word should be disambiguated by a qualifying word, then aruvi ?mpal does not conform to that definition since in the case of aruvi ?mpal in Pati??uppattu 63, aruvi is really made up of aru+vi, a compound. Moreover, the expression a?ai a?uppu a?iy? is already there to clarify that ?mpal is a number and not a flower. Thus, aruvi simply provides information in addition to a?ai a?uppu a?iy? that ?mpal is not a flower. The modern commentator Aru?ampalava??r also does not call it ve?ippa?ai. 

 

Regards,

Palaniappan 

 

?On 2/25/21, 2:34 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

 

    * chose

    --> "chosen"

 

 

    On 25/02/2021 09:13, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:

    > Dear Palaniappan,

    > 

    > thanks for this.

    > 

    > Maybe one could add to the list of such usages the phrase ????? ??????? 

    > [aruvi y-?mpal], which was considered as striking enough to be chose as 

    > a title for the poem Pati??uppattu 63 (which is part of the decade 

    > composed by Kapilar)

    > 

    > -- Jean-Luc

    > 

    > https://twitter.com/JLC1956

    > 

    > 

    > On 24/02/2021 21:07, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

    >> Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.

    >>

    >> Sorry.

    >>

    >> Regards,

    >> Palaniappan

    >>

    >> ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" <palaniappa at aol.com> 

    >> wrote:

    >>

    >>      Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.

    >>

    >>      Regards,

    >>      Palaniappan

    >>

    >>      ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" 

    >> <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

    >>

    >>          Dear JLC,

    >>

    >>          Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time 

    >> ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical 

    >> Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this 

    >> technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains 

    >> the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an 

    >> ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- 

    >> v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? 

    >> ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by 

    >> this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called 

    >> 've?ippa?ai'.  Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one 

    >> such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by 

    >> 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The 

    >> commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am 

    >> 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). 

    >> However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages.

    >>

    >>          That is why I was surprised that commentators like 

    >> V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap 

    >> p??a?'.

    >>

    >>          Regards,

    >>          Palaniappan

    >>

    >>

    >>          ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" 

    >> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

    >>

    >>              For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a 

    >> Tamil mailing list,

    >>              see:

    >>

    >>              

    >> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ

    >>

    >>

    >>              1. ?????? ?????????? (????????)

    >>              2. ??????? ??????? (?????????)

    >>              3. ?????? ????? (????????)

    >>              4. ?????? ?????? (?????????)

    >>              5. ???? ???? (????????)

    >>              6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????)

    >>              7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????)

    >>              8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????)

    >>

    >>

    >>              -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard

    >>

    >>

    >>              https://twitter.com/JLC1956

    >>

    >>

    >>              On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via 

    >> INDOLOGY wrote:

    >>              > Dear Herman,

    >>              >

    >>              > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in 

    >> Indology, why

    >>              > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in 

    >> all occurrences

    >>              > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning 

    >> ?a priest? in

    >>              > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I 

    >> have discussed

    >>              > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in 

    >> Indology.)

    >>              >

    >>              > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances 

    >> where a homonym is

    >>              > used in an expression following a verb used as a 

    >> negative adjectival

    >>              > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression 

    >> cannot be used with

    >>              > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other 

    >> unique meaning.

    >>              > Here are some examples.

    >>              >

    >>              > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12)

    >>              > Here /na?avu/  can mean toddy as well as a city in the 

    >> C?ra domain. The

    >>              > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city.

    >>              >

    >>              > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370)

    >>              > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of 

    >> dance. The NAP

    >>              > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance.

    >>              >

    >>              > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1)

    >>              > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The 

    >> NAP v???

    >>              > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace.

    >>              >

    >>              > /eyy? varivil/  (Aka. 192.4)

    >>              > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of 

    >> material tied around

    >>              > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and 

    >> ?/ey/? means ?to

    >>              > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is 

    >> used to indicate

    >>              > the rainbow.

    >>              >

    >>              > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can 

    >> sometimes be linked by

    >>              > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. 

    >> They can also be

    >>              > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated 

    >> by the homonym

    >>              > can use the same verb we need to look at other 

    >> contextual information

    >>              > provided.

    >>              >

    >>              > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 

    >> or 52-55 or 52-56

    >>              > according to different commentators) deals with this 

    >> use of homonyms.

    >>              >

    >>              > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are 

    >> not dealing with

    >>              > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper 

    >> versus dance.

    >>              > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology

    >>              > 

    >> (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA 

    >>

    >>              > 

    >> <https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA>), 

    >>

    >>              > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards 

    >> and warriors.

    >>              > So, in these cases, we are talking about different 

    >> subsets of a single

    >>              > community that perform different functions and the 

    >> poets use the same

    >>              > general technique we described above to uniquely 

    >> identify the subset.

    >>              >

    >>              > Regards,

    >>              > Palaniappan

    >>              >

    >>              >

    >>              >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H.

    >>              >> <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl

    >>              >> <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:

    >>              >>

    >>              >> Dear Palaniappan,

    >>              >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other 

    >> examples

    >>              >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it 

    >> would appear that

    >>              >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to 

    >> something like a

    >>              >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not 

    >> restricted to

    >>              >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, 

    >> before being able to

    >>              >> say something more in this line we have to have more 

    >> examples of this

    >>              >> type of compound.

    >>              >> Herman

    >>              >>

    >>              >> Herman Tieken

    >>              >> Stationsweg 58

    >>              >> 2515 BP Den Haag

    >>              >> The Netherlands

    >>              >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127

    >>              >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>

    >>              >> 

    >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    >>              >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info

    >>              >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> namens 

    >> Tieken, H.J.H.

    >>              >> via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info

    >>              >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>

    >>              >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26

    >>              >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology

    >>              >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical 

    >> Tamil Poems

    >>              >> Dear Palaniappan,

    >>              >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, 

    >> as is that

    >>              >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of 

    >> this type of

    >>              >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p 

    >> p?rppa?/ Wilden's

    >>              >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as 

    >> follows: we would

    >>              >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) 

    >> making a living

    >>              >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable 

    >> to do so by

    >>              >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your 

    >> interpretation applies: we

    >>              >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name 

    >> as a brahmin

    >>              >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter 

    >> by/v?l??/.

    >>              >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil 

    >> Ca?kam Poetry:

    >>              >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. 

    >> p. 294-5 and

    >>              >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf 

    >> link on my website)

    >>              >>

    >>              >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article 

    >> at hand, but I

    >>              >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert 

    >> van Daalen in "A

    >>              >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ 

    >> at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7

    >>              >> (1979), 171-189.

    >>              >> With kind regards

    >>              >> Herman

    >>              >>

    >>              >> Herman Tieken

    >>              >> Stationsweg 58

    >>              >> 2515 BP Den Haag

    >>              >> The Netherlands

    >>              >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127

    >>              >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>

    >>              >> 

    >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    >>              >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info

    >>              >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> namens 

    >> Sudalaimuthu

    >>              >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info

    >>              >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>

    >>              >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14

    >>              >> *Aan:*Indology List

    >>              >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical 

    >> Tamil Poems

    >>              >> I am reposting after correcting some typos.

    >>              >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s 

    >> interpretation of

    >>              >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes 

    >> these comments in

    >>              >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of 

    >> his commentary on

    >>              >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do 

    >> not know if he has

    >>              >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems.

    >>              >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler 

    >> P??a? belonged to

    >>              >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that 

    >> did not engage in

    >>              >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling 

    >> the land. He

    >>              >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed 

    >> earlier in the

    >>              >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? 

    >> were later

    >>              >> called  V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and 

    >> V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s

    >>              >> interpretation has been accepted by many later 

    >> scholars such as Ve.

    >>              >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 

    >> 141). This confirms

    >>              >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not 

    >> making music?. (For

    >>              >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music 

    >> making, see

    >>              >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.)

    >>              >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical 

    >> edition of

    >>              >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text 

    >> ?/e??[a]p p??a?/?

    >>              >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden 

    >> got only half of

    >>              >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the 

    >> bard?. But, Wilden

    >>              >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 

    >> 'to rise'. It

    >>              >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed 

    >> musical instrument;

    >>              >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is 

    >> ?the bard who does

    >>              >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the 

    >> converse of/'por?ap

    >>              >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting 

    >> warriors? is used to

    >>              >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can 

    >> be denoted by

    >>              >> the word ?porunar?.

    >>              >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to 

    >> describe

    >>              >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of 

    >> the name of the

    >>              >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, 

    >> ?/p??a?,?/and not

    >>              >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic 

    >> origin/./ But, we know

    >>              >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from 

    >> Pu?am 302. But,

    >>              >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we 

    >> have that

    >>              >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 

    >> according to which the

    >>              >> chief ?ri  gave ?the good country with small hills to 

    >> K??iyar?. Pillai

    >>              >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, 

    >> P??ar were known

    >>              >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, 

    >> K??iyar, Iyavar, and

    >>              >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have 

    >> received some

    >>              >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil 

    >> region, which could

    >>              >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became 

    >> the B??as.

    >>              >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not 

    >> impossible for one to

    >>              >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple 

    >> inscription South

    >>              >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several 

    >> members of the

    >>              >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai 

    >> V??aikk?rar, Terinta

    >>              >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians 

    >> (pp.299-300).

    >>              >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern 

    >> Tamil border area

    >>              >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As 

    >> I already noted

    >>              >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the 

    >> Cudappah district

    >>              >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen 

    >> to drift all the

    >>              >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th 

    >> century Mahad?

    >>              >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman.

    >>              >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an 

    >> ally of Ka??i who

    >>              >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king 

    >> Titta? Ve?iya?.

    >>              >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the 

    >> Ch??a king, the

    >>              >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like 

    >> V??ka?ac?mi N????r

    >>              >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily 

    >> add a word

    >>              >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to 

    >> come up with the

    >>              >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? 

    >> is preceded by

    >>              >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by 

    >> the subject of the

    >>              >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was 

    >> influenced by

    >>              >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? 

    >> as an ally of

    >>              >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has 

    >> followed N?tt?r?s

    >>              >> interpretation.

    >>              >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of 

    >> Love.Institut Fran?ais

    >>              >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.

    >>              >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, 

    >> Citamparam.

    >>              >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai 

    >> ?kum Akan????u

    >>              >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, 

    >> Mayil?pp?r.

    >>              >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 

    >> 1946.

    >>              >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. 

    >> Tirunelv?li,

    >>              >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai.

    >>              >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya 

    >> Ai?ku?un??u

    >>              >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip 

    >> palkalaik

    >>              >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu.

    >>              >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. 

    >> P???a?

    >>              >> Patippakam, Ce??ai.

    >>              >> Eva Wilden, 2018.  A Critical Edition and an Annotated 

    >> Translation of

    >>              >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise 

    >> D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut

    >>              >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.

    >>              >> Regards,

    >>              >> Palaniappan

    >>              >>

    >>              >>     On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com

    >>              >>     <mailto:palaniappa at aol.com>wrote:

    >>              >>     Dear George,

    >>              >>     I appreciate your comments.

    >>              >>     As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic 

    >> fonts too whenever

    >>              >>     possible. In my first post, I did use the 

    >> diacritic fonts. But,

    >>              >>     when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic 

    >> fonts in my

    >>              >>     earlier post showed up as question marks in my 

    >> Mac. Since there

    >>              >>     were not too many participants in the thread, to 

    >> be safe, I

    >>              >>     resorted to the transliteration I used.

    >>              >>     Thanks

    >>              >>     Regards,

    >>              >>     Palaniappan

    >>              >>

    >>              >>     -----Original Message-----

    >>              >>     From: George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU 

    >> <mailto:glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>>

    >>              >>     To: INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk

    >>              >>     <mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>>

    >>              >>     Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm

    >>              >>     Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical 

    >> Tamil Poems

    >>              >>

    >>              >>     Dear Palaniappan,

    >>              >>     I think you have made a good case for P??a? and 

    >> B??a, and

    >>              >>     especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as 

    >> even the

    >>              >>     alliteration works.  I hope you publish this, as 

    >> it is

    >>              >>     significant, I think.  I am still not convinced by 

    >> what you say

    >>              >>     about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after 

    >> reading many Sangam

    >>              >>     poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your

    >>              >>     interpretation just doesn't sound right to me.  Of 

    >> course, that

    >>              >>     doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's 

    >> really no way to

    >>              >>     tell.  If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, 

    >> more likely, in

    >>              >>     the middle of one side playing their drums), and a 

    >> battle started,

    >>              >>     they'd still be looking in front and behind them 

    >> to avoid being

    >>              >>     killed.  Thanks for an intriguing and informative 

    >> analysis.

    >>              >>     One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's 

    >> very hard to read

    >>              >>     the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks.  

    >> I believe every

    >>              >>     OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit 

    >> unicode.

    >>              >>     George

    >>              >>     On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan

    >>              >>     <Palaniappa at AOL.COM <mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM>> 

    >> wrote:

    >>              >>

    >>              >>

    >>              >>

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         Dear George,

    >>              >>         Please see the attached inscription. What can 

    >> one say about

    >>              >>         the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? 

    >> Which comes

    >>              >>         first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The 

    >> modifier 'peru' is

    >>              >>         found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar 

    >> (mentioned in

    >>              >>         nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, 

    >> etc. The title

    >>              >>         peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also 

    >> used in connection

    >>              >>         with different professions as in perumpANan2 

    >> and perunAvican2.

    >>              >>         Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa?

    >>              >>         First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a 

    >> dynasty is very

    >>              >>         unusual. The only other so-called dynastic 

    >> title I know of,

   >>              >>         bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at 

    >> all. In fact, in

    >>              >>         the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, 

    >> according to K.

    >>              >>         A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply 

    >> used the gotra

    >>              >>         names in the absence of dynastic names.  

    >> (Early History of the

    >>              >>         Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is 

    >> only in the

    >>              >>         tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence 

    >> of 'bRhad-bANa'.

    >>              >>         Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the 

    >> members of the

    >>              >>         dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In 

    >> other words we

    >>              >>         only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in 

    >> Tamil we find many

    >>              >>         instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc.

    >>              >>         This leads one to infer that the author of the 

    >> tALagunda

    >>              >>         inscription was simply translating the name 

    >> perumpANan2 into

    >>              >>         Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal 

    >> -m- is pronounced

    >>              >>         as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered 

    >> the first

    >>              >>         component as bRhad and kept the second part as 

    >> bANa. This

   >>              >>         suggests that the original form of the 

    >> dynastic name should

    >>              >>         have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that 

    >> in the Kannada

    >>              >>         and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced 

    >> as 'bANa' either

    >>              >>         independently or influenced by the 

    >> pronunciation of '- pANan2'

    >>              >>         in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' .  Once the 

    >> stand-alone form

    >>              >>         'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using 

    >> a Sanskrit

    >>              >>         mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to 

    >> mahAbali, father

    >>              >>         of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic 

    >> title as 'bANa'.

    >>              >>         Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back 

    >> into Tamil, Skt.

    >>              >>         bANa > Ta. vANa-.

    >>              >>         In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription 

    >> no. 1971/54 of the

    >>              >>         2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a 

    >> vANakO atiraicar. In

    >>              >>         the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th 

    >> year of the same

    >>              >>         king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar.

    >>              >>         The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to 

    >> the homophon

    >>              >>         indicating bard as well as the chieftain 

    >> suggesting in this

    >>              >>         case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' 

    >> too with

    >>              >>         word-initial p-.

    >>              >>         As for the domicile and area controlled by the 

    >> pANan2/bANa

    >>              >>         chiefs, it has varied historically. They might 

    >> have started

    >>              >>         near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu 

    >> inscription is found

    >>              >>         mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of 

    >> akam.155

    >>              >>         mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 

    >> 629 for a

    >>              >>         discussion of this.) Then they could have 

    >> moved north so that

    >>              >>         by the 4th century they are found near 

    >> zrIparvata hill. After

    >>              >>         serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola 

    >> dynasties, in the

    >>              >>         13th century, we see bANa chieftains with 

    >> titles such as

    >>              >>         mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., 

    >> controlling parts

    >>              >>         of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As 

    >> a parallel case,

    >>              >>         it should be noted that a branch of the 

    >> Cholas, Telugu Cholas,

    >>              >>          were controlling areas around Sonepur in 

    >> Orissa in the 12th

    >>              >>         century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit 

    >> tracing their descent

    >>              >>         to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) 

    >> progressively

    >>              >>         moving northeast from the area to the north of 

    >> the Tamil

    >>              >>         country over several centuries.

    >>              >>         In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 

    >> 113 and 226

    >>              >>         referred to one or more members of the same 

    >> lineage later

    >>              >>         called the bANas.

    >>              >>         kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned 

    >> in akam 44 as

    >>              >>         well as kuRuntokai 11. See below.

    >>              >>         /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 

    >> 44.8)/

    >>              >>         /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/

    >>              >>         /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8)

    >>              >>         We should take the dynatic names mentioned 

    >> here as individuals

    >>              >>         belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like 

    >> the bAnas, these

    >>              >>         dynasties were also in the northern border of 

    >> the Tamil

    >>              >>         country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western 

    >> Ganga dynasty.

    >>              >>         Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it 

    >> is not

    >>              >>         surprising that pANar allied themselves with 

    >> vicci or kaTTi.

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 

    >> is of the same

    >>              >>         nature as in akam. 336 below.

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 

    >> 336.20-23)

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the 

    >> cOza fighters.

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below 

    >> referring to the

    >>              >>         cOza fighters

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8)

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would 

    >> have joined the

    >>              >>         battle on the side of the vicciyar who might 

    >> be led by their

    >>              >>         chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 

    >> chief might

    >>              >>         have sent his forces without joining them.

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         As for non-fighters standing between the two 

    >> armies, I

    >>              >>         consider it highly unlikely they were standing 

    >> in between the

    >>              >>         fighting armies. They have to be really 

    >> standing on the side

    >>              >>         while the battle is raging and in that case 

    >> they will only

    >>              >>         move their gaze from side to side and not 

    >> front and back. So I

    >>              >>         do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid 

    >> here. At least if

    >>              >>         the description applies to the fighters, then 

    >> their behavior

    >>              >>         will parallel the warriors whether it is their 

    >> fierce look or

    >>              >>         looking forward and backward, So, the looking 

    >> persons should

    >>              >>         be fighters and not bards.

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         Regards,

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         Palaniappan

    >>              >>

    >>              >>

    >>              >>

    >>              >>         <Perumpanan_0004.jpg>

    >>              >>

    >>              >> _______________________________________________ 

    >> INDOLOGY mailing

    >>              >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info

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    >> <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>indology-owner at list.indology.info

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From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 01:03:00 2021
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 10:03:00 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_book_search_for_Pamp=C4=81sth=C4=81na_Var=E1=B9=87anam?=
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrDPAX+sO=QSuXKLe0kD1JyRDTMdBuzo+NWfuPNgTZYEdg@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Might someone have a pdf of this book?

Candrasekhara, Astabhasakavi. 1955. Pampasthana Varnanam. Edited by M.
Krishna Jois. Bangalore: Sharanasahitya Granthamala.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/pampasthana-varnanam/oclc/259251303&referer=brief_results


All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
(OICD), Kyoto
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University
Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
University

Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
 Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
 Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)







   -


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 06:40:56 2021
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 12:10:56 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpIngpKTgpY3gpKrgpLLgpL/gpKjgpYAgb2Yg4KS14KWN4KSv4KS+4KSh4KS/?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzUFqjCE67ZbNV_VWiEEn5N+x+T0HXZ3zrv6W34x+Gd=5g@mail.gmail.com>

Respected scholars,
It is my pleasure to present before you digitization of the following work.

Utpalin? of Vy??i.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/utpalini_vyadi/orig/utpalini.txt

This lexicon is not available in full. Its fragments from various
dictionaries were gleaned by Mr. Robert Birw? and published in an article.
The present work is digitized version of these articles.

   1.

   Fragments From Three Lost Ko?as: II. Vy??i's Utpalin?
   Robert Birw?Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 87, No. 1
   (Jan. - Mar., 1967), pp. 39-52


Credits -

1. Mr. Robert Birw? for finding out the quotations of this lost lexicon and
presenting them before scholarly community in a compact form.
2. Mr. Nagabhushana Rao of www.andhrabharati.com for providing the scans of
the articles.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Mar  2 09:39:04 2021
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 09:39:04 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] archeological puzzle
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB439676C10E6E8A7193E5726BA1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Dear friends,

This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:
https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.

best regards,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago


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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Tue Mar  2 12:55:15 2021
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 13:55:15 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems
In-Reply-To: <40F43A10-96EA-414A-A29B-9FE057D8433F@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4840aeaf-5ad7-74b1-0a12-11339afc1794@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear SP,

the explanation which I have seen for what you refer to as
? /aru+vi/, a compound ?
relies on "vi" to be the modified form of "v?" ?? (i.e. "flower)

I imagine the interpretation is
/aru-v? ?mpal/ = The ?mpal whose flowers are difficult to find (i.e. the 
?mpal which does not have flowers, i.e. the big number referred to by 
the designation ?mpal

But why is there a need to shorten v? into vi in the first place?

Another possibility is to take "aruvi" as being the item referred to by 
one entry on page 136 of the Madras Tamil Lexicon

????? aruvi (p. 136)
*?????? aruvi , n. < a-r?pin. That which is formless, shapeless; 
?????????????. ??????? ???? ??????? (?????. 6, 53).

Then "aruvi ?mpal" means the shapeless ?mpal
(which is not a flower but a big number)

Does that sound plausible?

Best wishes

-- Jean-Luc


On 02/03/2021 01:45, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
> I meant to add that Auvai Turaic?my Pi??ai, however, considers /aruvi 
> ?mpal/ a case of /ve?ippa?ai/.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Palaniappan
> 
> *From: *"palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>
> *Date: *Monday, March 1, 2021 at 6:33 PM
> *To: *Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>, 
> <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems
> 
> Dear JLC,
> 
> Thank you for mentioning the interesting case of /aruvi ?mpal/. If one 
> goes by the definition of /ve?ippa?ai/ as given in the Tamil Lexicon 
> that the meaning of an ambiguous word should be disambiguated by a 
> qualifying word, then /aruvi ?mpal/ does not conform to that definition 
> since in the case of /aruvi ?mpal in /Pati??uppattu 63, /aruvi/ is 
> really made up of /aru+vi/, a compound. Moreover, the expression /a?ai 
> a?uppu a?iy?/ is already there to clarify that /?mpal /is a number and 
> not a flower. Thus, /aruvi/ simply provides information in addition to 
> /a?ai a?uppu a?iy?/ that /?mpal/ is not a flower. The modern commentator 
> Aru?ampalava??r also does not call it /ve?ippa?ai/.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Palaniappan
> 
> ?On 2/25/21, 2:34 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" 
> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
> 
>  ??? * chose
> 
>  ??? --> "chosen"
> 
>  ??? On 25/02/2021 09:13, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:
> 
>  ??? > Dear Palaniappan,
> 
>  ??? >
> 
>  ????> thanks for this.
> 
>  ??? >
> 
>  ????> Maybe one could add to the list of such usages the phrase ????? 
> ???????
> 
>  ????> [aruvi y-?mpal], which was considered as striking enough to be 
> chose as
> 
>  ????> a title for the poem Pati??uppattu 63 (which is part of the decade
> 
>  ????> composed by Kapilar)
> 
>  ??? >
> 
>  ????> -- Jean-Luc
> 
>  ??? >
> 
>  ????> https://twitter.com/JLC1956
> 
>  ??? >
> 
>  ????>
> 
>  ????> On 24/02/2021 21:07, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:
> 
>  ??? >> Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >> Sorry.
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >> Regards,
> 
>  ??? >> Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >> ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" 
> <palaniappa at aol.com>
> 
>  ????>> wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????? Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????? Regards,
> 
>  ??? >>????? Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >> ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan"
> 
>  ????>> <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????? Dear JLC,
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????? Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long 
> time
> 
>  ????>> ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical
> 
>  ????>> Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call 
> this
> 
>  ????>> technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon 
> explains
> 
>  ????>> the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an
> 
>  ????>> ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as 
> p?y?-
> 
>  ????>> v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? 
> ???????? ???
> 
>  ????>> ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted 
> that by
> 
>  ????>> this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called
> 
>  ????>> 've?ippa?ai'.? Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is 
> one
> 
>  ????>> such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by
> 
>  ????>> 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The
> 
>  ????>> commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am
> 
>  ????>> 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14).
> 
>  ????>> However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these 
> usages.
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????? That is why I was surprised that commentators like
> 
>  ????>> V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap
> 
>  ????>> p??a?'.
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????? Regards,
> 
>  ??? >>????????? Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >> ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard"
> 
>  ????>> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a
> 
>  ????>> Tamil mailing list,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? see:
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ????>> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 3. ?????? ????? (????????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 5. ???? ???? (????????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????)
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? https://twitter.com/JLC1956
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via
> 
>  ????>> INDOLOGY wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Dear Herman,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have 
> discussed in
> 
>  ????>> Indology, why
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as 
> ?brahmin? in
> 
>  ????>> all occurrences
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > should be set aside in favor of treating it as 
> meaning
> 
>  ????>> ?a priest? in
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > general, who could be either brahmin or 
> non-brahmin. (I
> 
>  ????>> have discussed
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in
> 
>  ????>> Indology.)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Coming to other occurrences, there are many 
> instances
> 
>  ????>> where a homonym is
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > used in an expression following a verb used as a
> 
>  ????>> negative adjectival
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression
> 
>  ????>> cannot be used with
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other
> 
>  ????>> unique meaning.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Here are some examples.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Here /na?avu/? can mean toddy as well as a city 
> in the
> 
>  ????>> C?ra domain. The
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate 
> the city.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of
> 
>  ????>> dance. The NAP
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>?????????? ???> /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or 
> necklace. The
> 
>  ????>> NAP v???
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > /eyy? varivil/ ?(Aka. 192.4)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of
> 
>  ????>> material tied around
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and
> 
>  ????>> ?/ey/? means ?to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 
> 'non-arrow-discharging? is
> 
>  ????>> used to indicate
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > the rainbow.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can
> 
>  ????>> sometimes be linked by
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes 
> not.
> 
>  ????>> They can also be
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects 
> indicated
> 
>  ????>> by the homonym
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > can use the same verb we need to look at other
> 
>  ????>> contextual information
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > provided.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 
> 50-54
> 
>  ????>> or 52-55 or 52-56
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > according to different commentators) deals with this
> 
>  ????>> use of homonyms.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we 
> are
> 
>  ????>> not dealing with
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper
> 
>  ????>> versus dance.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ????>> 
> (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA 
> 
> 
>  ????>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ????>> 
> <https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA>), 
> 
> 
>  ????>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the 
> bards
> 
>  ????>> and warriors.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > So, in these cases, we are talking about different
> 
>  ????>> subsets of a single
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > community that perform different functions and the
> 
>  ????>> poets use the same
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > general technique we described above to uniquely
> 
>  ????>> identify the subset.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Regards,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? > Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Dear Palaniappan,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other
> 
>  ????>> examples
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it
> 
>  ????>> would appear that
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to
> 
>  ????>> something like a
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members 
> are not
> 
>  ????>> restricted to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However,
> 
>  ????>> before being able to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> say something more in this line we have to have 
> more
> 
>  ????>> examples of this
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> type of compound.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Herman
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ? ??>>????????????? >> Herman Tieken
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Stationsweg 58
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> The Netherlands
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ????>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info
> 
>  ? ??>>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> 
> namens
> 
>  ????>> Tieken, H.J.H.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical
> 
>  ????>> Tamil Poems
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Dear Palaniappan,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is 
> correct,
> 
>  ????>> as is that
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of
> 
>  ????>> this type of
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 
> 24:/v?l??p
> 
>  ????>> p?rppa?/ Wilden's
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as
> 
>  ????>> follows: we would
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin 
> (/p?rppa?/)
> 
>  ????>> making a living
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is 
> unable
> 
>  ????>> to do so by
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your
> 
>  ????>> interpretation applies: we
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same 
> name
> 
>  ????>> as a brahmin
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the 
> latter
> 
>  ????>> by/v?l??/.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil
> 
>  ????>> Ca?kam Poetry:
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 
> 287-303, esp.
> 
>  ????>> p. 294-5 and
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a 
> pdf
> 
>  ????>> link on my website)
> 
>  ??? >>????????? ????>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the 
> article
> 
>  ????>> at hand, but I
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by 
> Leendert
> 
>  ????>> van Daalen in "A
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/
> 
>  ????>> at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> (1979), 171-189.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> With kind regards
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Herman
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Herman Tieken
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Stationsweg 58
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> The Netherlands
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ????>> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> 
> namens
> 
>  ????>> Sudalaimuthu
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY 
> <indology at list.indology.info
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Aan:*Indology List
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical
> 
>  ????>> Tamil Poems
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> I am reposting after correcting some typos.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s
> 
>  ????>> interpretation of
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He 
> makes
> 
>  ????>> these comments in
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of
> 
>  ????>> his commentary on
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do
> 
>  ????>> not know if he has
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the 
> ruler
> 
>  ????>> P??a? belonged to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that
> 
>  ????>> did not engage in
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and 
> ruling
> 
>  ????>> the land. He
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had 
> discussed
> 
>  ????>> earlier in the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that 
> P????
> 
>  ????>> were later
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> called? V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and
> 
>  ????>> V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> interpretation has been accepted by many later
> 
>  ????>> scholars such as Ve.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987:
> 
>  ????>> 141). This confirms
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not
> 
>  ????>> making music?. (For
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music
> 
>  ????>> making, see
> 
>  ??? >>????????? ????>> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> In this context, it should be noted that the 
> critical
> 
>  ????>> edition of
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text
> 
>  ????>> ?/e??[a]p p??a?/?
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden
> 
>  ????>> got only half of
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the
> 
>  ????>> bard?. But, Wilden
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/-
> 
>  ????>> 'to rise'. It
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed
> 
>  ????>> musical instrument;
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is
> 
>  ????>> ?the bard who does
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the
> 
>  ????>> converse of/'por?ap
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting
> 
>  ????>> warriors? is used to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> refer to bards, where both the bards and 
> warriors can
> 
>  ????>> be denoted by
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> the word ?porunar?.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses 
> ?/e??[a]? to
> 
>  ????>> describe
> 
>  ??? >>???????????? ?>> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous 
> nature of
> 
>  ????>> the name of the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard,
> 
>  ????>> ?/p??a?,?/and not
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic
> 
>  ????>> origin/./ But, we know
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from
> 
>  ????>> Pu?am 302. But,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger 
> territory, we
> 
>  ????>> have that
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109
> 
>  ????>> according to which the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> chief ?ri? gave ?the good country with small 
> hills to
> 
>  ????>> K??iyar?. Pillai
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they 
> did,
> 
>  ????>> P??ar were known
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar,
> 
>  ????>> K??iyar, Iyavar, and
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have
> 
>  ????>> received some
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil
> 
>  ????>> region, which could
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became
> 
>  ????>> the B??as.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not
> 
>  ????>> impossible for one to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple
> 
>  ????>> inscription South
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are 
> several
> 
>  ????>> members of the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai
> 
>  ????>> V??aikk?rar, Terinta
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians
> 
>  ????>> (pp.299-300).
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern
> 
>  ????>> Tamil border area
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing 
> unusual. As
> 
>  ????>> I already noted
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in 
> the
> 
>  ????>> Cudappah district
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be 
> seen
> 
>  ????>> to drift all the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 
> 12^th
> 
>  ????>> century Mahad?
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an
> 
>  ????>> ally of Ka??i who
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king
> 
>  ????>> Titta? Ve?iya?.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the
> 
>  ????>> Ch??a king, the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like
> 
>  ????>> V??ka?ac?mi N????r
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) 
> unnecessarily
> 
>  ????>> add a word
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to
> 
>  ????>> come up with the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to 
> fight?
> 
>  ????>> is preceded by
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by
> 
>  ????>> the subject of the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps 
> N????r was
> 
>  ????>> influenced by
> 
>  ??? >>?????????? ???>> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted 
> P??a?
> 
>  ????>> as an ally of
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has
> 
>  ????>> followed N?tt?r?s
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> interpretation.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of
> 
>  ????>> Love.Institut Fran?ais
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar 
> Patippakam,
> 
>  ????>> Citamparam.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai
> 
>  ????>> ?kum Akan????u
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu,
> 
>  ????>> Mayil?pp?r.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam 
> P?llai,
> 
>  ????>> 1946.
> 
>  ??? >>??????? ??????>> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am.
> 
>  ????>> Tirunelv?li,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, 
> Ce??ai.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil 
> O???kiya
> 
>  ????>> Ai?ku?un??u
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. 
> A???malaip
> 
>  ????>> palkalaik
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu.
> 
>  ??? >>??? ??????????>> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum 
> Varal??um.
> 
>  ????>> P???a?
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Eva Wilden, 2018.? A Critical Edition and an 
> Annotated
> 
>  ????>> Translation of
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise
> 
>  ????>> D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Regards,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? <mailto:palaniappa at aol.com>wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Dear George,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? I appreciate your comments.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic
> 
>  ????>> fonts too whenever
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? possible. In my first post, I did use the
> 
>  ????>> diacritic fonts. But,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the 
> diacritic
> 
>  ????>> fonts in my
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? earlier post showed up as question marks in my
> 
>  ????>> Mac. Since there
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? were not too many participants in the 
> thread, to
> 
>  ????>> be safe, I
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? resorted to the transliteration I used.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Thanks
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Regards,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? -----Original Message-----
> 
>  ?? ?>>????????????? >>???? From: George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU
> 
>  ????>> <mailto:glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? To: INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? <mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of 
> Classical
> 
>  ????>> Tamil Poems
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? Dear Palaniappan,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? I think you have made a good case for P??a? and
> 
>  ????>> B??a, and
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as
> 
>  ????>> even the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? alliteration works.? I hope you publish 
> this, as
> 
>  ????>> it is
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? significant, I think.? I am still not 
> convinced by
> 
>  ????>> what you say
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after
> 
>  ????>> reading many Sangam
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? poems and working through much of the 
> Akananuru, your
> 
>  ??? >>???????????? ?>>???? interpretation just doesn't sound right to 
> me.? Of
> 
>  ????>> course, that
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's
> 
>  ????>> really no way to
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? tell.? If the P??ar were standing to one 
> side (or,
> 
>  ????>> more likely, in
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? the middle of one side playing their drums), 
> and a
> 
>  ????>> battle started,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? they'd still be looking in front and behind 
> them
> 
>  ????>> to avoid being
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? killed.? Thanks for an intriguing and 
> informative
> 
>  ????>> analysis.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's
> 
>  ????>> very hard to read
> 
>  ??? >>??????? ??????>>???? the transliteration that eschews diacritic 
> marks.
> 
>  ????>> I believe every
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? OS and email program is capable of handling 
> 8-bit
> 
>  ????>> unicode.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? George
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu 
> Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? <Palaniappa at AOL.COM 
> <mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM>>
> 
>  ????>> wrote:
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Dear George,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Please see the attached inscription. 
> What can
> 
>  ????>> one say about
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or 
> bANan2?
> 
>  ????>> Which comes
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The
> 
>  ????>> modifier 'peru' is
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? found in other names such as 
> perumuttaraiyar
> 
>  ????>> (mentioned in
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral,
> 
>  ????>> etc. The title
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also
> 
>  ????>> used in connection
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? with different professions as in 
> perumpANan2
> 
>  ????>> and perunAvican2.
> 
>  ??? >>????????? ????>>???????? Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa?
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a
> 
>  ????>> dynasty is very
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? unusual. The only other so-called dynastic
> 
>  ????>> title I know of,
> 
>  ???>>????????????? >>???????? bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at
> 
>  ????>> all. In fact, in
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and 
> sAlankAyanas,
> 
>  ????>> according to K.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have 
> simply
> 
>  ????>> used the gotra
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? names in the absence of dynastic names.
> 
>  ????>> (Early History of the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, 
> it is
> 
>  ????>> only in the
> 
>  ??? >>???????? ?????>>???????? tALagunda inscription we find the 
> occurrence
> 
>  ????>> of 'bRhad-bANa'.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Everywhere else in non-Tamil 
> inscriptions, the
> 
>  ????>> members of the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? dynasty are called bANarAja, 
> bANAdhirAja-. In
> 
>  ????>> other words we
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in
> 
>  ????>> Tamil we find many
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, 
> etc.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? This leads one to infer that the author 
> of the
> 
>  ????>> tALagunda
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? inscription was simply translating the name
> 
>  ????>> perumpANan2 into
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following 
> nasal
> 
>  ????>> -m- is pronounced
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? as -b-, the author of tALagunda has 
> rendered
> 
>  ????>> the first
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? component as bRhad and kept the second 
> part as
> 
>  ????>> bANa. This
> 
>  ???>>????????????? >>???????? suggests that the original form of the
> 
>  ????>> dynastic name should
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? have been Ta. pANan2. It is also 
> possible that
> 
>  ????>> in the Kannada
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being 
> pronounced
> 
>  ????>> as 'bANa' either
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? independently or influenced by the
> 
>  ????>> pronunciation of '- pANan2'
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' .? Once the
> 
>  ????>> stand-alone form
> 
>  ??? >>?????? ???????>>???????? 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding 
> using
> 
>  ????>> a Sanskrit
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? mythological pedigree tracing the 
> lineage to
> 
>  ????>> mahAbali, father
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? of bANAsura is carried out with the 
> dynastic
> 
>  ????>> title as 'bANa'.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Later when this form 'bANa' is imported 
> back
> 
>  ????>> into Tamil, Skt.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? bANa > Ta. vANa-.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription
> 
>  ????>> no. 1971/54 of the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a
> 
>  ????>> vANakO atiraicar. In
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 
> 10th
> 
>  ????>> year of the same
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to
> 
>  ????>> the homophon
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? indicating bard as well as the chieftain
> 
>  ????>> suggesting in this
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2'
> 
>  ????>> too with
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? word-initial p-.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? As for the domicile and area controlled 
> by the
> 
>  ????>> pANan2/bANa
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? chiefs, it has varied historically. They 
> might
> 
>  ????>> have started
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu
> 
>  ????>> inscription is found
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???? ????mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one 
> variant of
> 
>  ????>> akam.155
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil 
> Epigraphy, p.
> 
>  ????>> 629 for a
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? discussion of this.) Then they could have
> 
>  ????>> moved north so that
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? by the 4th century they are found near
> 
>  ????>> zrIparvata hill. After
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola
> 
>  ????>> dynasties, in the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with
> 
>  ????>> titles such as
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc.,
> 
>  ????>> controlling parts
> 
>  ??? >>???????? ?????>>???????? of the pANTiya country under the 
> pANTiyas. As
> 
>  ????>> a parallel case,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? it should be noted that a branch of the
> 
>  ????>> Cholas, Telugu Cholas,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>????????? were controlling areas around Sonepur in
> 
>  ????>> Orissa in the 12th
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit
> 
>  ????>> tracing their descent
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 
> 286)
> 
>  ????>> progressively
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? moving northeast from the area to the 
> north of
> 
>  ????>> the Tamil
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? country over several centuries.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam
> 
>  ????>> 113 and 226
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>? ???????referred to one or more members of the same
> 
>  ????>> lineage later
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? called the bANas.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also 
> mentioned
> 
>  ????>> in akam 44 as
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? well as kuRuntokai 11. See below.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam.
> 
>  ????>> 44.8)/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? We should take the dynatic names mentioned
> 
>  ????>> here as individuals
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like
> 
>  ????>> the bAnas, these
> 
>  ??? >>???????????? ?>>???????? dynasties were also in the northern 
> border of
> 
>  ????>> the Tamil
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western
> 
>  ????>> Ganga dynasty.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Vicciyar were also in the northern area. 
> So it
> 
>  ????>> is not
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? surprising that pANar allied themselves 
> with
> 
>  ????>> vicci or kaTTi.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? The use of the plural form pANar in 
> kuRu. 328
> 
>  ????>> is of the same
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>? ???????nature as in akam. 336 below.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????? ????>>???????? /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam.
> 
>  ????>> 336.20-23)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the
> 
>  ????>> cOza fighters.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below
> 
>  ????>> referring to the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? cOza fighters
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 
> 10.6-8)
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would
> 
>  ????>> have joined the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? battle on the side of the vicciyar who 
> might
> 
>  ????>> be led by their
> 
>  ??? >>??? ??????????>>???????? chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the 
> pANan2
> 
>  ????>> chief might
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? have sent his forces without joining them.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? As for non-fighters standing between the 
> two
> 
>  ????>> armies, I
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? consider it highly unlikely they were 
> standing
> 
>  ????>> in between the
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? fighting armies. They have to be really
> 
>  ????>> standing on the side
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? while the battle is raging and in that case
> 
>  ????>> they will only
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? move their gaze from side to side and not
> 
>  ????>> front and back. So I
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid
> 
>  ????>> here. At least if
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? the description applies to the fighters, 
> then
> 
>  ????>> their behavior
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? will parallel the warriors whether it is 
> their
> 
>  ????>> fierce look or
> 
>  ??? >>??? ??????????>>???????? looking forward and backward, So, the 
> looking
> 
>  ????>> persons should
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? be fighters and not bards.
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Regards,
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? Palaniappan
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>???????? <Perumpanan_0004.jpg>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >>
> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> _______________________________________________
> 
>  ????>> INDOLOGY mailing
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>  ????>> 
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> 
>  ??? >>????????????? >> 
> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>(messages to
> 
>  ????>> the list's
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> change
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Mar  2 13:51:58 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 05:51:58 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB439676C10E6E8A7193E5726BA1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfjX69+-3+bmR8Vf2E_OgaBC3nk6amdxm--LAMkjknUbQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,

     I don't know anything about this particular Indus find. However, I
have seen a photograph of the burial of a Sannyasi in this sort of a
sitting position. Here is the report:

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/01/22/Lakhs-bid-tearful-adieu-to-Walking-God-Shivakumara-Swami.html

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups
> recently:
>
> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
>
> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
> seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no
> knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent
> references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I
> would be most grateful.
>
> best regards,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From marco.franceschini3 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 14:08:54 2021
From: marco.franceschini3 at gmail.com (Marco Franceschini)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 15:08:54 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB439676C10E6E8A7193E5726BA1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <671C549F-A22E-4CB6-BF83-B2464B70DF2F@gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,

the news about the discovery of the skeletons seem to date back at least to September 2009 (http://varnam.org/2009/09/a-4000-year-old-lepers-tale/). It sounds strange that it didn?t reach the academia since.

Best,

Marco
---

Marco Franceschini
???????????
Senior Assistant Professor
University of Bologna
Department of History and Cultures
marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it <mailto:marco.franceschini3 at unibo.it>
https://www.unibo.it/sitoweb/marco.franceschini3/en <https://www.unibo.it/sitoweb/marco.franceschini3/en>
http://unibo.academia.edu/MarcoFranceschini <http://unibo.academia.edu/MarcoFranceschini>
www.associazioneitalianadistudisanscriti.org <http://www.associazioneitalianadistudisanscriti.org/>
---

> Il giorno 2 mar 2021, alle ore 10:39, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> ha scritto:
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:
> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/ <https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/>
> 
> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.
> 
> best regards,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Tue Mar  2 15:06:50 2021
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 15:06:50 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_aruvi_=C4=81mpal?=
Message-ID: <c140f52082a74b5e93f6b69af5e46f33@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

About aruvi ?mpal in Pati??uppattu 63, line 19:


a?aiya?uppa?iy? varuvi y?mpal

?yita vel?l?a v??i

v??iy?ta v??iya palav?.


O V??iy?ta?, may you live long, living through the great floods of thousand Kalpas (??i), (floods) which make a loud noise (?mpal) produced by waterfalls ([v]aruvi) and which (the floods, of else the waterfalls, in which case "and" is to be deleted) are unstoppable (a?ai a?uppa a?iy?)


One of the meanings of ?mpal is the music (noise) produced by blowing through a pipe. It is not exactly the type of noise produced by a waterfall.


I had already removed the mails by Palaniappan and Jean-Luc. Therefore this reaction is not attached to their exchange, which took place under the wrong heading anyhow (The date of ...), a topic, which, as you will know, is otherwise close to my heart.


With kind regards

Herman



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 16:17:31 2021
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 21:47:31 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfjX69+-3+bmR8Vf2E_OgaBC3nk6amdxm--LAMkjknUbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebsuxXk9DwoCmGftsDHuNLo3OAPJDr31T82QyUzBmHAhA@mail.gmail.com>

Prof. Deshpande,

The picture you shared is of a Veerashiva ascetic.

Veerashaivas bury the bodies of their non-ascetic departed community
members too in a sitting posture only.

But the skeleton under discussion seems to be holding some mudras which is
not a part of Veerashaiva tradition.


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 7:23 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Dear Matthew,
>
>      I don't know anything about this particular Indus find. However, I
> have seen a photograph of the burial of a Sannyasi in this sort of a
> sitting position. Here is the report:
>
>
> https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/01/22/Lakhs-bid-tearful-adieu-to-Walking-God-Shivakumara-Swami.html
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear friends,
>>
>> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups
>> recently:
>>
>> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
>>
>> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
>> seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no
>> knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent
>> references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I
>> would be most grateful.
>>
>> best regards,
>> Matthew
>>
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>>
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


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From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr  Tue Mar  2 16:20:02 2021
From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 17:20:02 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_aruvi_=C4=81mpal?=
In-Reply-To: <c140f52082a74b5e93f6b69af5e46f33@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <ae44d7fa-951a-6685-d4ef-c50c077ff9dc@univ-paris-diderot.fr>

Dear Herman,

in Pi?kalam 3133, we obtain some (incomplete) information concerning the 
polysemy of ?mpal.

??????? ??????? ????? ????????
????????? ?????? ????? ??????.

icaiyi? ku?alu? ka??u m??kilu
malliyum y??aiyu m?mpa l?kum.

Modern editors extract these items,
as representing 5 meanings of ?mpal

icaiyi? ku?al --> icaikku?al
ka?
m??kil
alli
y??ai

The need for the specifier icai in icaiyi? ku?al (replaced by icaikku?al 
in the modern gloss) comes from the fact that ku?al itself is polysemic, 
as explained by Pi?kalam 3407

??????? ????? ???????? ?????????
?????????? ???????? ??????? ??????.

irup?? mayiru micaiyi? karuviyun
to?aiyu?aip poru?u? ku?ale? ??kum.

Modern editors extract these items,
as representing 4 meanings of ku?al

irup?? mayir --> ?? mayir & pe? mayir
icaiyi? karuvi --> icaik karuvi
to?aiyu?aip poru?


On the basis of this, I would understand that Pi?kalam 3133 (if 
completed by Pi?kalam 3407) enumerates 5 meanings for ?mpal
-- musical instrument
-- toddy (if MTL interpretes Pi?. correctly)
-- bamboo
-- Water-lily, nymphaea lotus; (if MTL interpretes Pi?. correctly)
-- elephant

That leaves out 6 of the meanings given by the MTL (on p. 233)

?????? ?mpal , n. 1. [K. ?bal, M. Tu. ?mbal.] Water-lily, nymphaea lotus; 
?????. (????.) 2. Musical pipe. See ???????????. ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? 
(??????????. 222). 3. A melody-type played on a pipe; ??????. (????. 1314.) 
4. Bamboo; ????????. (????.) 5. Blow-horn; ?????????. (????.) 6. Elephant; 
????. ????????? ??????? (?????. ???????????). 7. Toddy; ???. (????.) 8. A very 
high number; ??? ?? ????. (????. ?????. 393.) 9. Affliction; ???????. (????.) 
10. Arrangement, order; ?????. (????.) 11. Moon; ????????. (??. ??.)

As for the 2nd meaning in MTL, namely "Musical pipe",
another MTL entry gives more details

??????????? ?mpa?-ku?al , n. < ?????? +. Musical pipe of bell-metal with a 
handle in the shape of a water-lily; ??????????? ????? ?????????????? 
????????????. (?????. 17, ??????, 2, ???.)

The meanings left out are

3. a melody-type played on a pipe
5.
8. A very high number;
9.
10.
11.

In Pi?kalam 3024, THREE synonyms are given for kumutam.

They are:
-- ?mpal
-- neytal
-- alli

kumutam is mentionned in the Pi?kalam section on Big numbers,
and more precisely it appears in Pi?kalam 1655 & 1656

Regarding meaning 3.
in his 2010 Tami?icaip P?rakar?ti,
N?. Mammatu has written that
the melody-type which is intended is
a pentatonic pa? also called cutta ta?y?ci

Therefore,
maybe your interpretation
? (floods) which make a loud noise (?mpal) produced by waterfalls 
([v]aruvi) ?
  can be slightly modified
and become

"the pentatonic melody produced by the cascade which has been tuned in 
?uddhadhany?si"


According to Walther Kaufmann 1976, page 311,

The ascending sequence is: Do, Mi b?mol, Fa, Sol, Si b?mol, Sol, Do
The descending sequence is: Do, Si b?mol, Sol, Fa, Mi b?mol, Do


In Paris, near the Porte de la Villette, inside a park, there is a 
spherical cinema theater called La G?ode

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_G?ode

If you walk near it at night, you can probably still hear a (random) 
music of a similar nature. I have not verified whether it is pentatonic 
but it is partly linked with the sound of water

Of course one can also visit more than one sphere and listen to big 
numbers in that manner and perceive "La musique des sph?res"
:-)

with my best wishes


-- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen)



https://twitter.com/JLC1956


On 02/03/2021 16:06, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote:
> About aruvi ?mpal in Pati??uppattu 63, line 19:
> 
> 
> a?aiya?uppa?iy? varuvi y?mpal
> 
> ?yita vel?l?a v??i 
> 
> v??iy?ta v??iya palav?.
> 
> 
> O V??iy?ta?, may you live long, living through the great floods 
> of?thousand Kalpas (??i), (floods) which make?a loud noise (?mpal) 
> produced by?waterfalls ([v]aruvi) and which (the floods, of else the 
> waterfalls, in which case "and" is to be deleted) are unstoppable (a?ai 
> a?uppa a?iy?)__
> 
> 
> One of the meanings of??mpal is the music (noise) produced by blowing 
> through a pipe. It is not exactly the type of noise produced by a waterfall.
> 
> 
> I had already removed the mails by Palaniappan and Jean-Luc. Therefore 
> this reaction is not attached to their exchange, which took place under 
> the wrong heading anyhow (The date of ...), a topic, which, as you will 
> know, is otherwise close to my heart.
> 
> 
> With kind regards
> 
> Herman
> 
> 
> 
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 




From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Mar  2 16:50:18 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 08:50:18 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebsuxXk9DwoCmGftsDHuNLo3OAPJDr31T82QyUzBmHAhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfhgM81E0hTyCmK8tuhRityOpRyFDCZav4wjeZ1GutjZg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Nagraj Ji. I have seen some similar burial photos of Sannyasis in
more recent times and they were not connected with the Veershaiva
community. This is also the imagination about J??ne?vara's Sam?dhi in the
town of Alandi near Pune. The poetic description given by Namdev is that
J??ne?vara went inside the underground chamber and sat in a Yogic posture.
Then the entrance to the chamber was closed with a large stone.  The
popular belief is that J??ne?vara is still alive in that chamber.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:18 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Prof. Deshpande,
>
> The picture you shared is of a Veerashiva ascetic.
>
> Veerashaivas bury the bodies of their non-ascetic departed community
> members too in a sitting posture only.
>
> But the skeleton under discussion seems to be holding some mudras which is
> not a part of Veerashaiva tradition.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 7:23 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Matthew,
>>
>>      I don't know anything about this particular Indus find. However, I
>> have seen a photograph of the burial of a Sannyasi in this sort of a
>> sitting position. Here is the report:
>>
>>
>> https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/01/22/Lakhs-bid-tearful-adieu-to-Walking-God-Shivakumara-Swami.html
>>
>> Madhav
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups
>>> recently:
>>>
>>> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
>>>
>>> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
>>> seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no
>>> knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent
>>> references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I
>>> would be most grateful.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>>>
>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>> The University of Chicago
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
> BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
> Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
>
>


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From markasha at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 17:19:52 2021
From: markasha at gmail.com (Mark McLaughlin)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 12:19:52 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB439676C10E6E8A7193E5726BA1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CACP0xaU8AkKEUyXj5L6Sa98PaVd+6J49_2_yfDdgmRx3t67GwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Matthew,

The skeletal image shown in this article is from a dig at Balathal in
Rajasthan. It was taken by Dr. Vasant Shinde of the Department of
Archaeology at Deccan College and dated by Dr. Gwen Robbins to the 6th cen
BCE. I reference this image and dig in an article on the roots of sam?dhi
burial coming out in the spring issue of Oxford Journal of Hindu Studies.
The issue itself is part of a special double issue on sam?dhis, tombs, and
relics co-edited by Brian Hatcher, Abhishek Amar and myself.

See:
Misra, V.N., Vasant Shinde, R.K. Mohanty, Kurush Dalal, Anup Mishra, Lalit
Pandey' and Jeevan Kharakwa. ?Excavations at Balathal: Their Contribution
to the Chalcolithic and Iron Age Cultures of Mewar, Rajasthan.? In Man and
Environment: Journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary
Studies. Volume XX, Number 1 (January - June 1995).

Robbins, Gwen. V. Mushrif, V.N. Misra, R.K. Mohanty, and V.S. Shinde, 2007.
?Adult Skeletal Material from Balathal: A Full Report and Inventory.? Man
and Environment 32 (2): 1?26.

All best,
Mark

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups
> recently:
>
> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
>
> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
> seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no
> knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent
> references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I
> would be most grateful.
>
> best regards,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)



-- 
Mark McLaughlin, PhD
*Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions*


*Department of Religious StudiesWilliam & MaryWilliamsburg, VA*


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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 17:31:59 2021
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 17:31:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CACP0xaU8AkKEUyXj5L6Sa98PaVd+6J49_2_yfDdgmRx3t67GwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264774889.932699.1614706319520@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thanks for this reference, Mark.
I think the key sentences here, that many are overlooking, is:
"Another clue is the time frame of these skeletons. While the leper was dated to 2000 BCE, the skeletons in samadhi were from700 BCE[9]. So while the leper burial was unusual, there is nothing unusual about burying a man in samadhi posture by the Early Historical Period."
Interesting, nevertheless.

Best,
Dean

    On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 10:50:32 PM GMT+5:30, Mark McLaughlin <markasha at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Dear Matthew,
The skeletal image shown in this article is from a dig at Balathal in Rajasthan. It was taken by Dr. Vasant Shinde of the Department of Archaeology at Deccan College and dated by Dr. Gwen Robbins to the 6th cen BCE.?I reference this image and dig in an article on the roots of sam?dhi burial coming?out in the spring issue?of Oxford Journal of Hindu Studies. The issue itself is part of a special double issue on sam?dhis, tombs, and relics?co-edited by Brian Hatcher, Abhishek Amar and myself.?

See:Misra, V.N., Vasant Shinde, R.K. Mohanty, Kurush Dalal, Anup Mishra, Lalit Pandey' and Jeevan Kharakwa. ?Excavations at Balathal: Their Contribution to the Chalcolithic and Iron Age Cultures of Mewar, Rajasthan.? In Man and Environment: Journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies. Volume XX, Number 1 (January - June 1995).

Robbins, Gwen. V. Mushrif, V.N. Misra, R.K. Mohanty, and V.S. Shinde, 2007. ?Adult Skeletal Material from Balathal: A Full Report and Inventory.? Man and Environment 32 (2): 1?26.

All best,Mark
On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

Dear friends,
This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.? If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.
best regards,Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-- 
Mark McLaughlin, PhD
Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions
Department of Religious Studies
William & Mary
Williamsburg, VA
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)  


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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 17:34:04 2021
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 12:34:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfhgM81E0hTyCmK8tuhRityOpRyFDCZav4wjeZ1GutjZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o-PZ8mEnYhmo2tVtbKgthhavMXT4Jz17teF7Jm=npDbXQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've also seen a video where a guru was being buried  sometime in the
1960's with his legs tied into a crossed position .
Harry Spier


On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 11:51 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Thanks, Nagraj Ji. I have seen some similar burial photos of Sannyasis in
> more recent times and they were not connected with the Veershaiva
> community. This is also the imagination about J??ne?vara's Sam?dhi in the
> town of Alandi near Pune. The poetic description given by Namdev is that
> J??ne?vara went inside the underground chamber and sat in a Yogic posture.
> Then the entrance to the chamber was closed with a large stone.  The
> popular belief is that J??ne?vara is still alive in that chamber.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:18 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Prof. Deshpande,
>>
>> The picture you shared is of a Veerashiva ascetic.
>>
>> Veerashaivas bury the bodies of their non-ascetic departed community
>> members too in a sitting posture only.
>>
>> But the skeleton under discussion seems to be holding some mudras which
>> is not a part of Veerashaiva tradition.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 7:23 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Matthew,
>>>
>>>      I don't know anything about this particular Indus find. However, I
>>> have seen a photograph of the burial of a Sannyasi in this sort of a
>>> sitting position. Here is the report:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/01/22/Lakhs-bid-tearful-adieu-to-Walking-God-Shivakumara-Swami.html
>>>
>>> Madhav
>>>
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>>> India
>>>
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation
>>>> groups recently:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
>>>>
>>>> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
>>>> seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no
>>>> knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent
>>>> references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I
>>>> would be most grateful.
>>>>
>>>> best regards,
>>>> Matthew
>>>>
>>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
>>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>>>>
>>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>>> The University of Chicago
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
>> BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
>> Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Mar  2 17:35:02 2021
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 17:35:02 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CACP0xaU8AkKEUyXj5L6Sa98PaVd+6J49_2_yfDdgmRx3t67GwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB4396C45C3F8851B948FC3B93A1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Great, Thanks so much Mark. Please do notify us all when the issue in question in available. I for one await your findings with great interest.

And thank you to all those who have taken the time to respond, on- or off-list.

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: Mark McLaughlin <markasha at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2021 11:19 AM
To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] archeological puzzle

Dear Matthew,

The skeletal image shown in this article is from a dig at Balathal in Rajasthan. It was taken by Dr. Vasant Shinde of the Department of Archaeology at Deccan College and dated by Dr. Gwen Robbins to the 6th cen BCE. I reference this image and dig in an article on the roots of sam?dhi burial coming out in the spring issue of Oxford Journal of Hindu Studies. The issue itself is part of a special double issue on sam?dhis, tombs, and relics co-edited by Brian Hatcher, Abhishek Amar and myself.

See:
Misra, V.N., Vasant Shinde, R.K. Mohanty, Kurush Dalal, Anup Mishra, Lalit Pandey' and Jeevan Kharakwa. ?Excavations at Balathal: Their Contribution to the Chalcolithic and Iron Age Cultures of Mewar, Rajasthan.? In Man and Environment: Journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies. Volume XX, Number 1 (January - June 1995).

Robbins, Gwen. V. Mushrif, V.N. Misra, R.K. Mohanty, and V.S. Shinde, 2007. ?Adult Skeletal Material from Balathal: A Full Report and Inventory.? Man and Environment 32 (2): 1?26.

All best,
Mark

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu<mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>> wrote:
Dear friends,

This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:
https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.

best regards,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


--
Mark McLaughlin, PhD
Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions
Department of Religious Studies
William & Mary
Williamsburg, VA


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Tue Mar  2 17:54:31 2021
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 18:54:31 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB4396C45C3F8851B948FC3B93A1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20210302185431.82c85771742d1689b29650fa@ff.cuni.cz>

A few years ago, I wrote a brief outline of burial practices in Hindu traditions. Perhaps, for those who are interested in this topic, it could be useful.
https://www.academia.edu/43210104/Burial_Hinduism_

Best
Lubomir



On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:35:02 +0000
Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

> Great, Thanks so much Mark. Please do notify us all when the issue in question in available. I for one await your findings with great interest.
> 
> And thank you to all those who have taken the time to respond, on- or off-list.
> 
> best,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: Mark McLaughlin <markasha at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2021 11:19 AM
> To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] archeological puzzle
> 
> Dear Matthew,
> 
> The skeletal image shown in this article is from a dig at Balathal in Rajasthan. It was taken by Dr. Vasant Shinde of the Department of Archaeology at Deccan College and dated by Dr. Gwen Robbins to the 6th cen BCE. I reference this image and dig in an article on the roots of sam?dhi burial coming out in the spring issue of Oxford Journal of Hindu Studies. The issue itself is part of a special double issue on sam?dhis, tombs, and relics co-edited by Brian Hatcher, Abhishek Amar and myself.
> 
> See:
> Misra, V.N., Vasant Shinde, R.K. Mohanty, Kurush Dalal, Anup Mishra, Lalit Pandey' and Jeevan Kharakwa. ?Excavations at Balathal: Their Contribution to the Chalcolithic and Iron Age Cultures of Mewar, Rajasthan.? In Man and Environment: Journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies. Volume XX, Number 1 (January - June 1995).
> 
> Robbins, Gwen. V. Mushrif, V.N. Misra, R.K. Mohanty, and V.S. Shinde, 2007. ?Adult Skeletal Material from Balathal: A Full Report and Inventory.? Man and Environment 32 (2): 1?26.
> 
> All best,
> Mark
> 
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu<mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>> wrote:
> Dear friends,
> 
> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:
> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
> 
> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.
> 
> best regards,
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> 
> --
> Mark McLaughlin, PhD
> Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions
> Department of Religious Studies
> William & Mary
> Williamsburg, VA




From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 18:28:09 2021
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 23:58:09 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfhgM81E0hTyCmK8tuhRityOpRyFDCZav4wjeZ1GutjZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ea=TGax6YtRq70sjw4jexWnJQbBZVpeatDDyTGcrkMfRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Prof. Deshpande,

That is another kind/category of Samadhi.

It is called Jeeva Samadhi.

Some Yogis get a tomb constructed around them while being alive. Such a
Samadhi is called Sajeeva Samaadhi.

Guru Raghavendra Swamy's Brindavan in Mantralayam belongs to that category.

Fingers in mudras etc. are possible in such cases.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021, 10:20 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Thanks, Nagraj Ji. I have seen some similar burial photos of Sannyasis in
> more recent times and they were not connected with the Veershaiva
> community. This is also the imagination about J??ne?vara's Sam?dhi in the
> town of Alandi near Pune. The poetic description given by Namdev is that
> J??ne?vara went inside the underground chamber and sat in a Yogic posture.
> Then the entrance to the chamber was closed with a large stone.  The
> popular belief is that J??ne?vara is still alive in that chamber.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:18 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Prof. Deshpande,
>>
>> The picture you shared is of a Veerashiva ascetic.
>>
>> Veerashaivas bury the bodies of their non-ascetic departed community
>> members too in a sitting posture only.
>>
>> But the skeleton under discussion seems to be holding some mudras which
>> is not a part of Veerashaiva tradition.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 7:23 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Matthew,
>>>
>>>      I don't know anything about this particular Indus find. However, I
>>> have seen a photograph of the burial of a Sannyasi in this sort of a
>>> sitting position. Here is the report:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/01/22/Lakhs-bid-tearful-adieu-to-Walking-God-Shivakumara-Swami.html
>>>
>>> Madhav
>>>
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>>> India
>>>
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 1:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>> This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation
>>>> groups recently:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/
>>>>
>>>> I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
>>>> seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no
>>>> knowledge of the other material discussed here.  If you know of pertinent
>>>> references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I
>>>> would be most grateful.
>>>>
>>>> best regards,
>>>> Matthew
>>>>
>>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>>> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
>>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>>>>
>>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>>> The University of Chicago
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
>> BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
>> Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


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From alanus1216 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 20:53:35 2021
From: alanus1216 at yahoo.com (Allen Thrasher)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 20:53:35 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sonars and Visvakarma materials available
In-Reply-To: <2121356616.996338.1614718415225.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2121356616.996338.1614718415225@mail.yahoo.com>

I have had my files of booklets, pamphlets, prints, and photocopies about the Sonars digitized.? Would those who contacted me earlier about their interest in these materials, or others newly interested, give me both their snailmail and email addresses 0FF THE LIST?
I have to investigate the best way to get the files to them.
Yours,
Allen Thrasher


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar  2 23:23:56 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 21 17:23:56 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems
In-Reply-To: <4840aeaf-5ad7-74b1-0a12-11339afc1794@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <504C1815-09C4-45CC-B73E-3C5D86DC335D@aol.com>

Dear JLC,

 

I doubt if aruvi in the sense of 'shapeless one' could be used here since 'uruvu' is used in the sense of shape of letters in the Tolk?ppiyam. Tamil-Br?hm? had graphical representations of numbers (see ?va?am 15, p. 143) even though no artifact with ?mpal represented by a symbol has been found so far. It is possible before Tamil-Br?hm?, some graphic representation using graffiti symbols could have been used to indicate numbers. Given the significant bead-making industry in Ko?uma?am (now Ko?uma?al) and the port of Pantar involved in overseas trade in the king?s domain praised by the same poet in Pati??uppattu 67, I would expect graphic representation of numbers must have been well-known locally. ?Since the concept of graphic representation of numbers was present ca. 1st century CE-3rd century CE, I doubt if shapelessness could have been used to disambiguate ?mpal. ?

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

?On 3/2/21, 6:55 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

 

??? Dear SP,

 

??? the explanation which I have seen for what you refer to as

??? ? /aru+vi/, a compound ?

??? relies on "vi" to be the modified form of "v?" ?? (i.e. "flower)

 

??? I imagine the interpretation is

??? /aru-v? ?mpal/ = The ?mpal whose flowers are difficult to find (i.e. the 

?????mpal which does not have flowers, i.e. the big number referred to by 

????the designation ?mpal

 

??? But why is there a need to shorten v? into vi in the first place?

 

??? Another possibility is to take "aruvi" as being the item referred to by 

????one entry on page 136 of the Madras Tamil Lexicon

 

??? ????? aruvi (p. 136)

??? *?????? aruvi , n. < a-r?pin. That which is formless, shapeless; 

?????????????????. ??????? ???? ??????? (?????. 6, 53).

 

??? Then "aruvi ?mpal" means the shapeless ?mpal

??? (which is not a flower but a big number)

 

??? Does that sound plausible?

 

??? Best wishes

 

??? -- Jean-Luc

 

 

??? On 02/03/2021 01:45, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

??? > I meant to add that Auvai Turaic?my Pi??ai, however, considers /aruvi 

????> ?mpal/ a case of /ve?ippa?ai/.

??? > 

????> Regards,

??? > 

????> Palaniappan

??? > 

????> *From: *"palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>

??? > *Date: *Monday, March 1, 2021 at 6:33 PM

??? > *To: *Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>, 

????> <indology at list.indology.info>

??? > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems

??? > 

????> Dear JLC,

??? > 

????> Thank you for mentioning the interesting case of /aruvi ?mpal/. If one 

????> goes by the definition of /ve?ippa?ai/ as given in the Tamil Lexicon 

????> that the meaning of an ambiguous word should be disambiguated by a 

????> qualifying word, then /aruvi ?mpal/ does not conform to that definition 

????> since in the case of /aruvi ?mpal in /Pati??uppattu 63, /aruvi/ is 

????> really made up of /aru+vi/, a compound. Moreover, the expression /a?ai 

????> a?uppu a?iy?/ is already there to clarify that /?mpal /is a number and 

????> not a flower. Thus, /aruvi/ simply provides information in addition to 

????> /a?ai a?uppu a?iy?/ that /?mpal/ is not a flower. The modern commentator 

????> Aru?ampalava??r also does not call it /ve?ippa?ai/.

??? > 

????> Regards,

??? > 

????> Palaniappan

??? > 

????> ?On 2/25/21, 2:34 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" 

????> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

??? > 

????>????? * chose

??? > 

????>????? --> "chosen"

??? > 

????>????? On 25/02/2021 09:13, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote:

??? > 

????>????? > Dear Palaniappan,

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? > thanks for this.

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? > Maybe one could add to the list of such usages the phrase ????? 

????> ???????

??? > 

????>????? > [aruvi y-?mpal], which was considered as striking enough to be 

????> chose as

??? > 

????>????? > a title for the poem Pati??uppattu 63 (which is part of the decade

??? > 

????>????? > composed by Kapilar)

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? > -- Jean-Luc

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? > https://twitter.com/JLC1956

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? > On 24/02/2021 21:07, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >> Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> Sorry.

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> Regards,

??? > 

????>????? >> Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" 

????> <palaniappa at aol.com>

??? > 

????>????? >> wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????? Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'.

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????? Regards,

??? > 

????>????? >>????? Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan"

??? > 

????>????? >> <palaniappa at aol.com> wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????? Dear JLC,

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????? Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long 

????> time

??? > 

????>????? >> ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call 

????> this

??? > 

????>????? >> technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon 

????> explains

??? > 

????>????? >> the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an

??? > 

????>????? >> ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as 

????> p?y?-

??? > 

????>????? >> v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? 

????> ???????? ???

??? > 

????>????? >> ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted 

????> that by

??? > 

????>????? >> this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called

??? > 

????>????? >> 've?ippa?ai'.? Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is 

????> one

??? > 

????>????? >> such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by

??? > 

????>????? >> 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The

??? > 

????>????? >> commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am

??? > 

????>????? >> 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14).

??? > 

????>????? >> However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these 

????> usages.

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????? That is why I was surprised that commentators like

??? > 

????>????? >> V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap

??? > 

????>????? >> p??a?'.

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????? Regards,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????? Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard"

??? > 

????>????? >> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil mailing list,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? see:

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 3. ?????? ????? (????????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 5. ???? ???? (????????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????)

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? https://twitter.com/JLC1956

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via

??? > 

????>????? >> INDOLOGY wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Dear Herman,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have 

????> discussed in

??? > 

????>????? >> Indology, why

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as 

????> ?brahmin? in

??? > 

????>????? >> all occurrences

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > should be set aside in favor of treating it as 

????> meaning

??? > 

????>????? >> ?a priest? in

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > general, who could be either brahmin or 

????> non-brahmin. (I

??? > 

????>???? ?>> have discussed

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in

??? > 

????>????? >> Indology.)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Coming to other occurrences, there are many 

????> instances

??? > 

????>????? >> where a homonym is

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > used in an expression following a verb used as a

??? > 

????>????? >> negative adjectival

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression

??? > 

????>????? >> cannot be used with

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other

??? > 

????>????? >> unique meaning.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Here are some examples.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Here /na?avu/? can mean toddy as well as a city 

????> in the

??? > 

????>????? >> C?ra domain. The

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate 

????> the city.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of

??? > 

????>????? >> dance. The NAP

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or 

????> necklace. The

??? > 

????>????? >> NAP v???

??? > 

????>????? >> ?????????????> ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > /eyy? varivil/? (Aka. 192.4)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of

??? > 

????>????? >> material tied around

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and

??? > 

????>????? >> ?/ey/? means ?to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 

????> 'non-arrow-discharging? is

??? > 

????>????? >> used to indicate

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > the rainbow.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can

??? > 

????>????? >> sometimes be linked by

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes 

????> not.

??? > 

????>????? >> They can also be

??? > 

????>????? >>??????????? ??> connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects 

????> indicated

??? > 

????>????? >> by the homonym

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > can use the same verb we need to look at other

??? > 

????>????? >> contextual information

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > provided.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 

????> 50-54

??? > 

????>????? >> or 52-55 or 52-56

 ???> 

????>????? >>????????????? > according to different commentators) deals with this

??? > 

????>????? >> use of homonyms.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we 

????> are

??? > 

????>????? >> not dealing with

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper

??? > 

????>????? >> versus dance.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >> 

????> (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA 

????> 

????> 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >> 

????> <https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA>), 

????> 

????> 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the 

????> bards

??? > 

????>????? >> and warriors.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > So, in these cases, we are talking about different

??? > 

????>????? >> subsets of a single

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > community that perform different functions and the

??? > 

????>????? >> poets use the same

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > general technique we described above to uniquely

??? > 

????>????? >> identify the subset.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Regards,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H.

??? > 

????>???? ?>>????????????? >> <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> <mailto:H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>> wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Dear Palaniappan,

??? > 

????>????? >>?????? ???????>> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other

??? > 

????>????? >> examples

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it

??? > 

????>????? >> would appear that

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to

??? > 

????>????? >> something like a

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members 

????> are not

??? > 

????>????? >> restricted to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However,

??? > 

????>????? >> before being able to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> say something more in this line we have to have 

????> more

??? > 

????>????? >> examples of this

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> type of compound.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Herman

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Herman Tieken

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Stationsweg 58

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> The Netherlands

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> 

????> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> 

????> namens

??? > 

????>????? >> Tieken, H.J.H.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil Poems

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Dear Palaniappan,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is 

????> correct,

??? > 

????>????? >> as is that

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of

??? > 

????>????? >> this type of

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 

????> 24:/v?l??p

??? > 

????>????? >> p?rppa?/ Wilden's

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as

??? > 

????>????? >> follows: we would

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin 

????> (/p?rppa?/)

??? > 

????>????? >> making a living

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is 

????> unable

??? > 

????>????? >> to do so by

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your

??? > 

????>????? >> interpretation applies: we

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same 

????> name

??? > 

????>????? >> as a brahmin

?? ?> 

????>????? >>????????????? >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the 

????> latter

??? > 

????>????? >> by/v?l??/.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil

??? > 

????>????? >> Ca?kam Poetry:

?? ?> 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 

????> 287-303, esp.

??? > 

????>????? >> p. 294-5 and

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a 

????> pdf

??? > 

????>????? >> link on my website)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the 

????> article

??? > 

????>????? >> at hand, but I

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by 

????> Leendert

??? > 

????>????? >> van Daalen in "A

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/

??? > 

????>????? >> at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> (1979), 171-189.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> With kind regards

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Herman

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Herman Tieken

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Stationsweg 58

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> The Netherlands

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> website:hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> 

????> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> 

????> namens

??? > 

????>????? >> Sudalaimuthu

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY 

????> <indology at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>? ????>>????????????? >> <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Aan:*Indology List

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil Poems

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> I am reposting after correcting some typos.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s

??? > 

????>????? >> interpretation of

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He 

????> makes

??? > 

????>????? >> these comments in

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of

??? > 

????>????? >> his commentary on

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do

??? > 

????>????? >> not know if he has

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the 

????> ruler

??? > 

????>????? >> P??a? belonged to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that

??? > 

????>????? >> did not engage in

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and 

????> ruling

??? > 

????>????? >> the land. He

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had 

????> discussed

??? > 

????>????? >> earlier in the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that 

????> P????

??? > 

????>????? >> were later

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> called? V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and

??? > 

????>????? >> V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> interpretation has been accepted by many later

??? > 

????>????? >> scholars such as Ve.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987:

??? > 

????>????? >> 141). This confirms

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not

??? > 

????>????? >> making music?. (For

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music

??? > 

????>????? >> making, see

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> In this context, it should be noted that the 

????> critical

??? > 

????>????? >> edition of

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text

??? > 

????>????? >> ?/e??[a]p p??a?/?

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden

??? > 

????>????? >> got only half of

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the

??? > 

????>????? >> bard?. But, Wilden

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/-

??? > 

????>????? >> 'to rise'. It

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed

??? > 

????>????? >> musical instrument;

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is

??? > 

????>????? >> ?the bard who does

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the

??? > 

????>????? >> converse of/'por?ap

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting

??? > 

????>????? >> warriors? is used to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> refer to bards, where both the bards and 

????> warriors can

??? > 

????>????? >> be denoted by

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> the word ?porunar?.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses 

????> ?/e??[a]? to

??? > 

????>????? >> describe

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous 

????> nature of

??? > 

????>????? >> the name of the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard,

??? > 

????>????? >> ?/p??a?,?/and not

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic

??? > 

????>????? >> origin/./ But, we know

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from

??? > 

????>????? >> Pu?am 302. But,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger 

????> territory, we

??? > 

????>????? >> have that

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109

??? > 

????>????? >> according to which the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> chief ?ri? gave ?the good country with small 

????> hills to

??? > 

????>????? >> K??iyar?. Pillai

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they 

????> did,

??? > 

????>????? >> P??ar were known

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar,

??? > 

????>????? >> K??iyar, Iyavar, and

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have

??? > 

????>????? >> received some

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil

??? > 

????>????? >> region, which could

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became

??? > 

????>????? >> the B??as.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not

??? > 

????>????? >> impossible for one to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple

??? > 

????>????? >> inscription South

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are 

????> several

??? > 

????>????? >> members of the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai

??? > 

????>????? >> V??aikk?rar, Terinta

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians

??? > 

????>????? >> (pp.299-300).

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil border area

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing 

????> unusual. As

??? > 

????>????? >> I already noted

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in 

????> the

??? > 

????>????? >> Cudappah district

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be 

????> seen

??? > 

????>????? >> to drift all the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 

????> 12^th

??? > 

????>????? >> century Mahad?

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an

??? > 

????>????? >> ally of Ka??i who

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king

??? > 

????>????? >> Titta? Ve?iya?.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the

??? > 

????>????? >> Ch??a king, the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like

??? > 

????>????? >> V??ka?ac?mi N????r

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) 

????> unnecessarily

??? > 

????>????? >> add a word

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to

??? > 

????>????? >> come up with the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to 

????> fight?

??? > 

????>????? >> is preceded by

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by

??? > 

????>????? >> the subject of the

 ???> 

????>????? >>????????????? >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps 

????> N????r was

??? > 

????>????? >> influenced by

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted 

????> P??a?

??? > 

????>????? >> as an ally of

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has

??? > 

????>????? >> followed N?tt?r?s

? ??> 

????>????? >>????????????? >> interpretation.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of

??? > 

????>????? >> Love.Institut Fran?ais

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar 

????> Patippakam,

??? > 

????>????? >> Citamparam.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai

??? > 

????>????? >> ?kum Akan????u

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu,

??? > 

????>????? >> Mayil?pp?r.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam 

????> P?llai,

??? > 

????>????? >> 1946.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am.

??? > 

????>????? >> Tirunelv?li,

??? > 

????>??? ??>>????????????? >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, 

????> Ce??ai.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil 

????> O???kiya

??? > 

????>????? >> Ai?ku?un??u

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. 

????> A???malaip

??? > 

????>????? >> palkalaik

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum 

????> Varal??um.

??? > 

????>????? >> P???a?

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Eva Wilden, 2018.? A Critical Edition and an 

????> Annotated

??? > 

????>????? >> Translation of

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise

??? > 

????>????? >> D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> Regards,

??? > 

????>? ????>>????????????? >> Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? <mailto:palaniappa at aol.com>wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Dear George,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? I appreciate your comments.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic

??? > 

????>????? >> fonts too whenever

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? possible. In my first post, I did use the

??? > 

????>????? >> diacritic fonts. But,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the 

????> diacritic

??? > 

????>????? >> fonts in my

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? earlier post showed up as question marks in my

??? > 

????>????? >> Mac. Since there

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? were not too many participants in the 

????> thread, to

??? > 

????>????? >> be safe, I

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? resorted to the transliteration I used.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Thanks

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Regards,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? -----Original Message-----

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? From: George Hart <glhart at BERKELEY.EDU

??? > 

????>????? >> <mailto:glhart at BERKELEY.EDU>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? To: INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? <mailto:INDOLOGY at liverpool.ac.uk>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of 

????> Classical

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil Poems

??? > 

????>????? >>???????? ?????>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? Dear Palaniappan,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? I think you have made a good case for P??a? and

??? > 

????>????? >> B??a, and

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as

??? > 

????>????? >> even the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? alliteration works.? I hope you publish 

????> this, as

??? > 

????>????? >> it is

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? significant, I think.? I am still not 

????> convinced by

??? > 

????>????? >> what you say

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after

??? > 

????>????? >> reading many Sangam

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? poems and working through much of the 

????> Akananuru, your

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? interpretation just doesn't sound right to 

????> me.? Of

??? > 

????>????? >> course, that

??? > 

????>????? >>???? ?????????>>???? doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's

??? > 

????>????? >> really no way to

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? tell.? If the P??ar were standing to one 

????> side (or,

??? > 

????>????? >> more likely, in

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? the middle of one side playing their drums), 

????> and a

??? > 

????>????? >> battle started,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? they'd still be looking in front and behind 

????> them

??? > 

????>????? >> to avoid being

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? killed.? Thanks for an intriguing and 

????> informative

??? > 

????>????? >> analysis.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's

??? > 

????>????? >> very hard to read

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? the transliteration that eschews diacritic 

????> marks.

??? > 

????>????? >> I believe every

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? OS and email program is capable of handling 

????> 8-bit

??? > 

????>????? >> unicode.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? George

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu 

????> Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???? <Palaniappa at AOL.COM 

????> <mailto:Palaniappa at AOL.COM>>

??? > 

????>????? >> wrote:

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Dear George,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Please see the attached inscription. 

????> What can

??? > 

????>????? >> one say about

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or 

????> bANan2?

??? > 

????>????? >> Which comes

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The

??? > 

????>????? >> modifier 'peru' is

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? found in other names such as 

????> perumuttaraiyar

??? > 

????>????? >> (mentioned in

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral,

??? > 

????>????? >> etc. The title

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also

??? > 

????>????? >> used in connection

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? with different professions as in 

????> perumpANan2

??? > 

????>????? >> and perunAvican2.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa?

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a

??? > 

????>????? >> dynasty is very

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? unusual. The only other so-called dynastic

??? > 

????>????? >> title I know of,

??? > 

????>? ???>>????????????? >>???????? bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at

??? > 

????>????? >> all. In fact, in

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and 

????> sAlankAyanas,

??? > 

????>????? >> according to K.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have 

????> simply

??? > 

????>????? >> used the gotra

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? names in the absence of dynastic names.

??? > 

????>????? >> (Early History of the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, 

????> it is

??? > 

????>????? >> only in the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? tALagunda inscription we find the 

????> occurrence

??? > 

????>????? >> of 'bRhad-bANa'.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Everywhere else in non-Tamil 

????> inscriptions, the

??? > 

????>????? >> members of the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? dynasty are called bANarAja, 

????> bANAdhirAja-. In

??? > 

????>????? >> other words we

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in

??? > 

????>????? >> Tamil we find many

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, 

????> etc.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? This leads one to infer that the author 

????> of the

??? > 

????>????? >> tALagunda

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? inscription was simply translating the name

??? > 

????>????? >> perumpANan2 into

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following 

????> nasal

??? > 

????>????? >> -m- is pronounced

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? as -b-, the author of tALagunda has 

????> rendered

??? > 

????>????? >> the first

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? component as bRhad and kept the second 

????> part as

??? > 

????>????? >> bANa. This

??? > 

????>???? >>????????????? >>???????? suggests that the original form of the

??? > 

????>????? >> dynastic name should

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? have been Ta. pANan2. It is also 

????> possible that

??? > 

????>????? >> in the Kannada

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being 

????> pronounced

??? > 

????>????? >> as 'bANa' either

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? independently or influenced by the

??? > 

????>????? >> pronunciation of '- pANan2'

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' .? Once the

??? > 

????>????? >> stand-alone form

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding 

????> using

??? > 

????>????? >> a Sanskrit

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? mythological pedigree tracing the 

????> lineage to

??? > 

????>????? >> mahAbali, father

 ???> 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? of bANAsura is carried out with the 

????> dynastic

??? > 

????>????? >> title as 'bANa'.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Later when this form 'bANa' is imported 

????> back

??? > 

????>????? >> into Tamil, Skt.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? bANa > Ta. vANa-.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription

??? > 

????>????? >> no. 1971/54 of the

??? > 

????>????? >>???????????? ?>>???????? 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a

??? > 

????>????? >> vANakO atiraicar. In

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 

????> 10th

??? > 

????>????? >> year of the same

??? > 

????>????? >>???? ?????????>>???????? king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to

??? > 

????>????? >> the homophon

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? indicating bard as well as the chieftain

??? > 

????>????? >> suggesting in this

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2'

??? > 

????>????? >> too with

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? word-initial p-.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? As for the domicile and area controlled 

????> by the

??? > 

????>????? >> pANan2/bANa

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? chiefs, it has varied historically. They 

????> might

??? > 

????>????? >> have started

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu

??? > 

????>????? >> inscription is found

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one 

????> variant of

??? > 

????>????? >> akam.155

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil 

????> Epigraphy, p.

??? > 

????>????? >> 629 for a

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? discussion of this.) Then they could have

??? > 

????>????? >> moved north so that

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? by the 4th century they are found near

??? > 

????>????? >> zrIparvata hill. After

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola

??? > 

????>????? >> dynasties, in the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with

??? > 

????>????? >> titles such as

??? > 

????>?? ???>>????????????? >>???????? mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc.,

??? > 

????>????? >> controlling parts

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? of the pANTiya country under the 

????> pANTiyas. As

??? > 

????>????? >> a parallel case,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? it should be noted that a branch of the

??? > 

????>????? >> Cholas, Telugu Cholas,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>????????? were controlling areas around Sonepur in

??? > 

????>????? >> Orissa in the 12th

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit

??? > 

????>????? >> tracing their descent

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 

????> 286)

??? > 

????>????? >> progressively

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? moving northeast from the area to the 

????> north of

??? > 

????>????? >> the Tamil

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? country over several centuries.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam

??? > 

????>????? >> 113 and 226

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? referred to one or more members of the same

??? > 

????>????? >> lineage later

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? called the bANas.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also 

????> mentioned

??? > 

????>????? >> in akam 44 as

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? well as kuRuntokai 11. See below.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam.

??? > 

????>????? >> 44.8)/

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8)

??? > 

????>????? >>????? ????????>>???????? We should take the dynatic names mentioned

??? > 

????>????? >> here as individuals

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like

??? > 

????>????? >> the bAnas, these

??? > 

????>????? >>????? ????????>>???????? dynasties were also in the northern 

????> border of

??? > 

????>????? >> the Tamil

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western

??? > 

????>????? >> Ganga dynasty.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Vicciyar were also in the northern area. 

????> So it

??? > 

????>????? >> is not

??? > 

????> ?????>>????????????? >>???????? surprising that pANar allied themselves 

????> with

??? > 

????>????? >> vicci or kaTTi.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? The use of the plural form pANar in 

????> kuRu. 328

??? > 

????>????? >> is of the same

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? nature as in akam. 336 below.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/

??? > 

????>????? >>???????????? ?>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam.

??? > 

????>????? >> 336.20-23)

??? > 

????>????? >>??????????? ??>>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the

??? > 

????>????? >> cOza fighters.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below

? ??> 

????>????? >> referring to the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? cOza fighters

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 

????> 10.6-8)

??? > 

????> ?????>>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would

??? > 

????>????? >> have joined the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? battle on the side of the vicciyar who 

????> might

??? > 

????>????? >> be led by their

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the 

????> pANan2

??? > 

????>????? >> chief might

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? have sent his forces without joining them.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? As for non-fighters standing between the 

????> two

??? > 

????>????? >> armies, I

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? consider it highly unlikely they were 

????> standing

??? > 

????>????? >> in between the

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? fighting armies. They have to be really

??? > 

????>????? >> standing on the side

 ???> 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? while the battle is raging and in that case

??? > 

????>????? >> they will only

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? move their gaze from side to side and not

??? > 

????>????? >> front and back. So I

?? ?> 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid

??? > 

????>????? >> here. At least if

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? the description applies to the fighters, 

????> then

??? > 

????>????? >> their behavior

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? will parallel the warriors whether it is 

????> their

??? > 

????>????? >> fierce look or

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? looking forward and backward, So, the 

????> looking

??? > 

????>????? >> persons should

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? be fighters and not bards.

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? Regards,

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>? ????>>????????????? >>???????? Palaniappan

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>???????? <Perumpanan_0004.jpg>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> _______________________________________________

??? > 

????>????? >> INDOLOGY mailing

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >> 

????> <mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>indology-owner at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> 

????> <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info>(messages to

??? > 

????>????? >> the list's

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> <http://listinfo.indology.info/>(where you can 

????> change

??? > 

????>????? >> your list

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >> options or unsubscribe)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > _______________________________________________

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > To unsubscribe send an email to

??? > 

????>????? >> indology-leave at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the

??? > 

????>????? >> list's managing committee)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change

??? > 

????>????? >> your list options or unsubscribe)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? >

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? _______________________________________________

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? To unsubscribe send an email to

??? > 

????>????? >> indology-leave at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the 

????> list's

??? > 

????>????? >> managing committee)

??? > 

????>????? >>????????????? http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change 

????> your

??? > 

????>????? >> list options or unsubscribe)

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >>

??? > 

????>????? >

??? > 

????>????? > _______________________________________________

??? > 

????>???? ?> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing

??? > 

????>????? > committee)

??? > 

????>????? > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list 

????> options or

??? > 

????>????? > unsubscribe)

??? > 

????>????? _______________________________________________

??? > 

????>????? INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info

??? > 

????>????? indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 

????> committee)

??? > 

????>????? http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list 

????> options or unsubscribe)

??? > 

????_______________________________________________

??? INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info

??? To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info

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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 04:44:35 2021
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 10:14:35 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLjgpILgpLjgpL7gpLDgpL7gpLXgpLDgpY3gpKQgb2Yg4KS14KS/4KSV4KWN4KSw4KSu4KS+4KSm4KS/4KSk4KWN4KSv?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzVf_G6W9M50WgUP7bkjRWQOj8KBpi=k-1vbxVyDYPhj+A@mail.gmail.com>

Respected scholars,
It is my pleasure to present before you digitization of the following work.

Sa?s?r?varta of Vikram?ditya.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/samsaravarta_vikramaditya/orig/samsaravarta.txt

This lexicon is not available in full. Its fragments from various
dictionaries were gleaned by Mr. Robert Birw? and published in an article.
The present work is digitized version of this article.

   1.

   Fragments From Three Lost Ko?as: III. Vikram?ditya's Sa?s?r?varta,
   Robert Birw?, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 93, No. 4
   (Oct. - Dec., 1973), pp. 462-46

Credits -

1. Mr. Robert Birw? for finding out the quotations of this lost lexicon and
presenting them before scholarly community in a compact form.
2. Mr. Nagabhushana Rao of www.andhrabharati.com for providing the scans of
the article.


-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Mar  3 08:13:13 2021
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 08:13:13 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_aruvi_=C4=81mpal?=
In-Reply-To: <ae44d7fa-951a-6685-d4ef-c50c077ff9dc@univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Message-ID: <20640442813b47c2a1edb8206ed4b61b@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Yesterday I did not have time to search for other instances of the phrase aruvi ?mpal. This morning I had, and found the same combination in Akan????u  96:


.... ammul? ne?unko?i

aruvi ?mpal akal a?ai tu?akki


which Hart translates as follows:


"their fine thorns <    > twine around the wide leaves of ??pal growing in the water."


("water" translates aruvi, "waterfall". Better: "wild water". The point, as in Pati??upattu 63, is its destructive character)


So my interpretation of ?mpal as loud noise was premature, and in my translation of a?aiya?uppa?iy? I had better followed the (modern) commentator)of the edition I used, who translates a?ai with ilai, "leaf".

All this does not affect my intention, which was to show that ?mpal is not used in the meaning "high number", but in one of its (most) regular meanings.


I feel have more reasons than others to be ashamed for not having searched for parallel passages before posting the message. One of the main points in my recent review article on the way Old Tamil Ca?kam poetry is approached, and translated, (Orientalistische Literatur Zeitung 115/4-5 (2020), pp. 287-305) is that the available indexes to this poetic corpus are hardly ever consulted, which results in many inimitable ad hoc solutions. So yesterday I added one of my own


Herman



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>
Verzonden: dinsdag 2 maart 2021 17:20:02
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Re: aruvi ?mpal

Dear Herman,

in Pi?kalam 3133, we obtain some (incomplete) information concerning the
polysemy of ?mpal.

??????? ??????? ????? ????????
????????? ?????? ????? ??????.

icaiyi? ku?alu? ka??u m??kilu
malliyum y??aiyu m?mpa l?kum.

Modern editors extract these items,
as representing 5 meanings of ?mpal

icaiyi? ku?al --> icaikku?al
ka?
m??kil
alli
y??ai

The need for the specifier icai in icaiyi? ku?al (replaced by icaikku?al
in the modern gloss) comes from the fact that ku?al itself is polysemic,
as explained by Pi?kalam 3407

??????? ????? ???????? ?????????
?????????? ???????? ??????? ??????.

irup?? mayiru micaiyi? karuviyun
to?aiyu?aip poru?u? ku?ale? ??kum.

Modern editors extract these items,
as representing 4 meanings of ku?al

irup?? mayir --> ?? mayir & pe? mayir
icaiyi? karuvi --> icaik karuvi
to?aiyu?aip poru?


On the basis of this, I would understand that Pi?kalam 3133 (if
completed by Pi?kalam 3407) enumerates 5 meanings for ?mpal
-- musical instrument
-- toddy (if MTL interpretes Pi?. correctly)
-- bamboo
-- Water-lily, nymphaea lotus; (if MTL interpretes Pi?. correctly)
-- elephant

That leaves out 6 of the meanings given by the MTL (on p. 233)

?????? ?mpal , n. 1. [K. ?bal, M. Tu. ?mbal.] Water-lily, nymphaea lotus;
?????. (????.) 2. Musical pipe. See ???????????. ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ??????
(??????????. 222). 3. A melody-type played on a pipe; ??????. (????. 1314.)
4. Bamboo; ????????. (????.) 5. Blow-horn; ?????????. (????.) 6. Elephant;
????. ????????? ??????? (?????. ???????????). 7. Toddy; ???. (????.) 8. A very
high number; ??? ?? ????. (????. ?????. 393.) 9. Affliction; ???????. (????.)
10. Arrangement, order; ?????. (????.) 11. Moon; ????????. (??. ??.)

As for the 2nd meaning in MTL, namely "Musical pipe",
another MTL entry gives more details

??????????? ?mpa?-ku?al , n. < ?????? +. Musical pipe of bell-metal with a
handle in the shape of a water-lily; ??????????? ????? ??????????????
????????????. (?????. 17, ??????, 2, ???.)

The meanings left out are

3. a melody-type played on a pipe
5.
8. A very high number;
9.
10.
11.

In Pi?kalam 3024, THREE synonyms are given for kumutam.

They are:
-- ?mpal
-- neytal
-- alli

kumutam is mentionned in the Pi?kalam section on Big numbers,
and more precisely it appears in Pi?kalam 1655 & 1656

Regarding meaning 3.
in his 2010 Tami?icaip P?rakar?ti,
N?. Mammatu has written that
the melody-type which is intended is
a pentatonic pa? also called cutta ta?y?ci

Therefore,
maybe your interpretation
? (floods) which make a loud noise (?mpal) produced by waterfalls
([v]aruvi) ?
  can be slightly modified
and become

"the pentatonic melody produced by the cascade which has been tuned in
?uddhadhany?si"


According to Walther Kaufmann 1976, page 311,

The ascending sequence is: Do, Mi b?mol, Fa, Sol, Si b?mol, Sol, Do
The descending sequence is: Do, Si b?mol, Sol, Fa, Mi b?mol, Do


In Paris, near the Porte de la Villette, inside a park, there is a
spherical cinema theater called La G?ode

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_G?ode

If you walk near it at night, you can probably still hear a (random)
music of a similar nature. I have not verified whether it is pentatonic
but it is partly linked with the sound of water

Of course one can also visit more than one sphere and listen to big
numbers in that manner and perceive "La musique des sph?res"
:-)

with my best wishes


-- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen)



https://twitter.com/JLC1956


On 02/03/2021 16:06, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote:
> About aruvi ?mpal in Pati??uppattu 63, line 19:
>
>
> a?aiya?uppa?iy? varuvi y?mpal
>
> ?yita vel?l?a v??i
>
> v??iy?ta v??iya palav?.
>
>
> O V??iy?ta?, may you live long, living through the great floods
> of thousand Kalpas (??i), (floods) which make a loud noise (?mpal)
> produced by waterfalls ([v]aruvi) and which (the floods, of else the
> waterfalls, in which case "and" is to be deleted) are unstoppable (a?ai
> a?uppa a?iy?)__
>
>
> One of the meanings of ?mpal is the music (noise) produced by blowing
> through a pipe. It is not exactly the type of noise produced by a waterfall.
>
>
> I had already removed the mails by Palaniappan and Jean-Luc. Therefore
> this reaction is not attached to their exchange, which took place under
> the wrong heading anyhow (The date of ...), a topic, which, as you will
> know, is otherwise close to my heart.
>
>
> With kind regards
>
> Herman
>
>
>
> Herman Tieken
> Stationsweg 58
> 2515 BP Den Haag
> The Netherlands
> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 09:49:22 2021
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 09:49:22 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <264774889.932699.1614706319520@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1223979753.32197.1614764962501@mail.yahoo.com>

 I heard from a Harappan archaeologist and he said that they are not connected. It's from a different time and place.
Best,
Dean

    On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 11:01:59 PM GMT+5:30, Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
  Thanks for this reference, Mark.
I think the key sentences here, that many are overlooking, is:
"Another clue is the time frame of these skeletons. While the leper was dated to 2000 BCE, the skeletons in samadhi were from700 BCE[9]. So while the leper burial was unusual, there is nothing unusual about burying a man in samadhi posture by the Early Historical Period."
Interesting, nevertheless.

Best,
Dean

    On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 10:50:32 PM GMT+5:30, Mark McLaughlin <markasha at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Dear Matthew,
The skeletal image shown in this article is from a dig at Balathal in Rajasthan. It was taken by Dr. Vasant Shinde of the Department of Archaeology at Deccan College and dated by Dr. Gwen Robbins to the 6th cen BCE.?I reference this image and dig in an article on the roots of sam?dhi burial coming?out in the spring issue?of Oxford Journal of Hindu Studies. The issue itself is part of a special double issue on sam?dhis, tombs, and relics?co-edited by Brian Hatcher, Abhishek Amar and myself.?

See:Misra, V.N., Vasant Shinde, R.K. Mohanty, Kurush Dalal, Anup Mishra, Lalit Pandey' and Jeevan Kharakwa. ?Excavations at Balathal: Their Contribution to the Chalcolithic and Iron Age Cultures of Mewar, Rajasthan.? In Man and Environment: Journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies. Volume XX, Number 1 (January - June 1995).

Robbins, Gwen. V. Mushrif, V.N. Misra, R.K. Mohanty, and V.S. Shinde, 2007. ?Adult Skeletal Material from Balathal: A Full Report and Inventory.? Man and Environment 32 (2): 1?26.

All best,Mark
On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

Dear friends,
This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.? If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.
best regards,Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-- 
Mark McLaughlin, PhD
Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions
Department of Religious Studies
William & Mary
Williamsburg, VA
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
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From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  3 09:53:48 2021
From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 09:53:48 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <1223979753.32197.1614764962501@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <743686071.29732.1614765228246@mail.yahoo.com>

 To clarify, the two cultures are not connected.
Best,
Dean

    On Wednesday, March 3, 2021, 3:19:59 PM GMT+5:30, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:  
 
  I heard from a Harappan archaeologist and he said that they are not connected. It's from a different time and place.
Best,
Dean

    On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 11:01:59 PM GMT+5:30, Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
  Thanks for this reference, Mark.
I think the key sentences here, that many are overlooking, is:
"Another clue is the time frame of these skeletons. While the leper was dated to 2000 BCE, the skeletons in samadhi were from700 BCE[9]. So while the leper burial was unusual, there is nothing unusual about burying a man in samadhi posture by the Early Historical Period."
Interesting, nevertheless.

Best,
Dean

    On Tuesday, March 2, 2021, 10:50:32 PM GMT+5:30, Mark McLaughlin <markasha at gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 Dear Matthew,
The skeletal image shown in this article is from a dig at Balathal in Rajasthan. It was taken by Dr. Vasant Shinde of the Department of Archaeology at Deccan College and dated by Dr. Gwen Robbins to the 6th cen BCE.?I reference this image and dig in an article on the roots of sam?dhi burial coming?out in the spring issue?of Oxford Journal of Hindu Studies. The issue itself is part of a special double issue on sam?dhis, tombs, and relics?co-edited by Brian Hatcher, Abhishek Amar and myself.?

See:Misra, V.N., Vasant Shinde, R.K. Mohanty, Kurush Dalal, Anup Mishra, Lalit Pandey' and Jeevan Kharakwa. ?Excavations at Balathal: Their Contribution to the Chalcolithic and Iron Age Cultures of Mewar, Rajasthan.? In Man and Environment: Journal of the Indian Society for Prehistoric and Quaternary Studies. Volume XX, Number 1 (January - June 1995).

Robbins, Gwen. V. Mushrif, V.N. Misra, R.K. Mohanty, and V.S. Shinde, 2007. ?Adult Skeletal Material from Balathal: A Full Report and Inventory.? Man and Environment 32 (2): 1?26.

All best,Mark
On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 4:39 AM Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

Dear friends,
This article has been making the rounds among yoga and meditation groups recently:https://www.indiadivine.org/2700-year-old-yogi-samadhi-found-indus-valley-civilization-archaeological-site/

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades but have no knowledge of the other material discussed here.? If you know of pertinent references to reliable sources that will help to shed light on this, I would be most grateful.
best regards,Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


-- 
Mark McLaughlin, PhD
Senior Lecturer of South Asian Religions
Department of Religious Studies
William & Mary
Williamsburg, VA
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)    _______________________________________________
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From scharfpm7 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 10:56:47 2021
From: scharfpm7 at gmail.com (Peter Scharf)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 16:26:47 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Sanskrit_Library_spring_(R=C4=81m=C4=81ya=E1=B9=87a,_R=CC=A5gveda,_=C4=80yurveda)_and_summer_courses_(Pali,_Intensive_Sanskrit,_Ka=CC=84raka)?=
Message-ID: <3CDCFA91-2CCA-4D79-B20F-09C9DFB54A26@gmail.com>

The Sanskrit Library would like to announce its new courses to be offered this spring and summer

Spring courses
Traditional Indian health maintenance: essential ?yurvedic practice through its sources.
Schedule: 10 April?12 June 2021.
The retelling of R?ma's story in Sanskrit literature.
Schedule: 11 April?13 June 2021.

Summer courses
Introduction to the R?gveda.
Schedule: 10 July?11 September 2021.
Pali Reading Workshop: Milindapa?ha ?The Questions of King Milinda?.
21 June?26 August 2021.
Introductory Sanskrit I and II (Summer intensive).
Schedule: 7 June ? 15 July 2021, and 19 July ? 19 August.
Siddh?ntakaumud? Vibhaktyarthaprakara?a.
8 June?20 August 2021.

Please see our current course page <https://www.sanskritlibrary.org/coursesnow.html> (sanskritlibrary.org/coursesnow.html <https://www.sanskritlibrary.org/coursesnow.html>) for descriptions, faculty, syllabi, and registration.

Yours,
Peter

******************************
Peter M. Scharf, President
The Sanskrit Library
scharf at sanskritlibrary.org
https://sanskritlibrary.org
******************************


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 11:46:40 2021
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 17:16:40 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpI/gpJXgpLXgpLDgpY3gpKPgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKXgpLjgpJngpY3gpJfgpY3gpLDgpLkgb2Yg4KSt4KSw4KSk4KSu4KSy4KWN4KSy4KS/4KSVICjgpK3gpLDgpKTgpLjgpYfgpKgp?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzV5LO7RUmKmwW=jcZfo6XcjCBh78zdjvWuL6LuyFiy9Ww@mail.gmail.com>

Respected scholars,
It is my pleasure to present before you the digitized version of the
following work.

Ekavar??rthasa?graha of Bharatamallika.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/ekavarnarthasangraha_bharatamallika/orig/ekavarnarthasangraha.txt

Credits - in metadata section.

As usual the frontend is available at
https://www.sanskritworld.in/sanskrittool/kosha-search/kosha.html .
Dictionary code - EBVM

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 20:11:41 2021
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 21:11:41 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] H. Falk's article on Copper Hoard weapons...
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoD3mjyt56nt8pymERr36uTjmJxf1jvsTkGHtoigsLJd_g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
Does anyone have a scan of

Harry Falk. ?Copper Hoard Weapons and the Vedic Vajra.? In: Asko Parpola
and Petteri Koskikallio, eds., *South Asian Archaeology* 1993, 1: 193?206.
Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, 1994.

Unfortunately, I have at present no access to my own photocopy of it.

With best regards,
Jan Houben

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

*https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>

LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction,
transmission

et transformations d'un savoir scientifique


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From mark.allon at sydney.edu.au  Thu Mar  4 02:33:01 2021
From: mark.allon at sydney.edu.au (Mark Allon)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 02:33:01 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] -t/-d
Message-ID: <ME2PR01MB2756CC3BEC826FF123AE9BCEDD979@ME2PR01MB2756.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Dear list members,

There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to whether the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in -d or -t.

MacDonnell?s Sanskrit Grammar for Students has the stems as mad, asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d), listing the abl. forms of the personal pronouns as mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad. Of tad he gives the nom. acc. sg. n. as tad but lists the abl. sg. as tasm?t.

Kale?s Higher Sanskrit Grammar similarly gives the stems forms in -d, has tad for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. tasm?t.

Devav???preve?ika gives all stem and declined forms in -t.

Whitney?s Sanskrit Grammar does not seem to list the stems of the personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in -t as he does with the dem. sg. tasm?t, asm?t.

Presumably the -t forms are influenced by the rule concerning permitted finals (k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m and ?), but I take this to refer to sandhi in the context of sentence formation.

Can we say whether -d or -t forms are original?

Regards
Mark

Dr Mark Allon
Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
The University of Sydney
Australia



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From nmcgover at fandm.edu  Thu Mar  4 02:56:22 2021
From: nmcgover at fandm.edu (Nathan McGovern)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 20:56:22 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <ME2PR01MB2756CC3BEC826FF123AE9BCEDD979@ME2PR01MB2756.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <01eb2a00-67b7-51a8-4259-76a5a7c9d6e7@fandm.edu>

Dear Mark,

I don't mean this to be a flippant question, but is it meaningful to ask 
which form is "original"? In English, is the indefinite article 
"originally" /a /but then becomes /an/ in front of vowels, or is it 
"originally" /an/ but then becomes /a /in front of consonants?

Best,

Nathan

*Having written this, it occurs to me that perhaps//one could make a 
comparative linguistic argument than /an/ is original because (I assume) 
it derives from German /ein/. But I don't know enough about the relevant 
comparative linguistics to say whether this is true, much less how it 
might translate to your question about Sanskrit /-t /and /-d/.

On 3/3/2021 8:33 PM, Mark Allon via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> Dear list members,
>
> There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to 
> whether the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in /-d/ or /-t/.
>
> MacDonnell?s /Sanskrit Grammar for Students/ has the stems as /mad, 
> asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d)/, listing the abl. forms of the 
> personal pronouns as /mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad/. Of /tad /he gives the 
> nom. acc. sg. n. as /tad/ but lists the abl. sg. as /tasm?t/.
>
> Kale?s /Higher Sanskrit Grammar/ similarly gives the stems forms in 
> /-d/, has /tad/ for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. /tasm?t/.
>
> /Devav???preve?ika/gives all stem and declined forms in /-t/.
>
> Whitney?s /Sanskrit Grammar/ does not seem to list the stems of the 
> personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in /-t/ as he does with 
> the dem. sg. /tasm//?t/, /asm?t/.
>
> Presumably the /-t/ forms are influenced by the rule concerning 
> permitted finals (/k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m/ and /?/), but I take this to 
> refer to sandhi in the context of sentence formation.
>
> Can we say whether /-d/ or /-t/ forms are original?
>
> Regards
>
> Mark
>
> Dr Mark Allon
>
> Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
>
> The University of Sydney
>
> Australia
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From rhododaktylos at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 03:11:35 2021
From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 04:11:35 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <01eb2a00-67b7-51a8-4259-76a5a7c9d6e7@fandm.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEjEOsBNBNsGfCrrs5+k=wt6uBAhpDSk=HTgp6YXKirXVSJ22w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mark,

These forms originally ended in -d, as we can see from comparative evidence
(forms such as 'id' in Latin, or Germanic forms ending in -t, such as 'it'
or 'that') and also internal evidence (forms such as Sanskrit id-am).

Word-final -d of course always appears as -t in Sanskrit when no other word
follows. Some grammars prefer to give the underlying form (and then also
often give you forms ending in the underlying -s that at the end of a word
always appears as visarga in Sanskrit); others prefer to list the form as
it would appear in Sanskrit.

Hope this helps!

All the best,
    Antonia

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 03:56, Nathan McGovern <nmcgover at fandm.edu> wrote:

> Dear Mark,
>
> I don't mean this to be a flippant question, but is it meaningful to ask
> which form is "original"? In English, is the indefinite article
> "originally" *a *but then becomes *an* in front of vowels, or is it
> "originally" *an* but then becomes *a *in front of consonants?
>
> Best,
>
> Nathan
>
> *Having written this, it occurs to me that perhaps one could make a
> comparative linguistic argument than *an* is original because (I assume)
> it derives from German *ein*. But I don't know enough about the relevant
> comparative linguistics to say whether this is true, much less how it might
> translate to your question about Sanskrit *-t *and *-d*.
> On 3/3/2021 8:33 PM, Mark Allon via INDOLOGY wrote:
>
> Dear list members,
>
>
>
> There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to whether
> the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in *-d* or *-t*.
>
>
>
> MacDonnell?s *Sanskrit Grammar for Students* has the stems as *mad,
> asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d)*, listing the abl. forms of the
> personal pronouns as *mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad*. Of *tad *he gives the
> nom. acc. sg. n. as * tad* but lists the abl. sg. as *tasm?t*.
>
>
>
> Kale?s *Higher Sanskrit Grammar* similarly gives the stems forms in *-d*,
> has * tad* for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. *tasm?t*.
>
>
>
> *Devav???preve?ika* gives all stem and declined forms in *-t*.
>
>
>
> Whitney?s *Sanskrit Grammar* does not seem to list the stems of the
> personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in *-t* as he does with
> the dem. sg. *tasm**?t*, *asm?t*.
>
>
>
> Presumably the *-t* forms are influenced by the rule concerning permitted
> finals (*k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m* and *?*), but I take this to refer to
> sandhi in the context of sentence formation.
>
>
>
> Can we say whether *-d* or *-t* forms are original?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Dr Mark Allon
>
> Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
>
> The University of Sydney
>
> Australia
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From rhododaktylos at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 03:19:09 2021
From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 04:19:09 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsBNBNsGfCrrs5+k=wt6uBAhpDSk=HTgp6YXKirXVSJ22w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEjEOsBxt29hs9OvhOgFnsfOpqcN5-A1Kn1+fGNys+0=g_d=Sg@mail.gmail.com>

And apologies, I should have said explicitly that I am referring to the
Nom/Acc Ntr Sg forms! I'm actually unsure what we reconstruct for ablative
forms such as tasm?t (also an original -d based e.g. on Old Latin ablatives
in -od (long o)/-?d?) and don't have my books with me right now. But I'm
sure the other Indo-Europeanists on the List will be able to answer this.

All best,
     Antonia

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 04:11, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Mark,
>
> These forms originally ended in -d, as we can see from comparative
> evidence (forms such as 'id' in Latin, or Germanic forms ending in -t, such
> as 'it' or 'that') and also internal evidence (forms such as Sanskrit
> id-am).
>
> Word-final -d of course always appears as -t in Sanskrit when no other
> word follows. Some grammars prefer to give the underlying form (and then
> also often give you forms ending in the underlying -s that at the end of a
> word always appears as visarga in Sanskrit); others prefer to list the form
> as it would appear in Sanskrit.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> All the best,
>     Antonia
>
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 03:56, Nathan McGovern <nmcgover at fandm.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mark,
>>
>> I don't mean this to be a flippant question, but is it meaningful to ask
>> which form is "original"? In English, is the indefinite article
>> "originally" *a *but then becomes *an* in front of vowels, or is it
>> "originally" *an* but then becomes *a *in front of consonants?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Nathan
>>
>> *Having written this, it occurs to me that perhaps one could make a
>> comparative linguistic argument than *an* is original because (I assume)
>> it derives from German *ein*. But I don't know enough about the relevant
>> comparative linguistics to say whether this is true, much less how it might
>> translate to your question about Sanskrit *-t *and *-d*.
>> On 3/3/2021 8:33 PM, Mark Allon via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>
>> Dear list members,
>>
>>
>>
>> There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to whether
>> the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in *-d* or *-t*.
>>
>>
>>
>> MacDonnell?s *Sanskrit Grammar for Students* has the stems as *mad,
>> asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d)*, listing the abl. forms of the
>> personal pronouns as *mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad*. Of *tad *he gives the
>> nom. acc. sg. n. as * tad* but lists the abl. sg. as *tasm?t*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kale?s *Higher Sanskrit Grammar* similarly gives the stems forms in *-d*,
>> has * tad* for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. *tasm?t*.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Devav???preve?ika* gives all stem and declined forms in *-t*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whitney?s *Sanskrit Grammar* does not seem to list the stems of the
>> personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in *-t* as he does with
>> the dem. sg. *tasm**?t*, *asm?t*.
>>
>>
>>
>> Presumably the *-t* forms are influenced by the rule concerning
>> permitted finals (*k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m* and *?*), but I take this to
>> refer to sandhi in the context of sentence formation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can we say whether *-d* or *-t* forms are original?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Mark Allon
>>
>> Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
>>
>> The University of Sydney
>>
>> Australia
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Mar  4 03:30:54 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 21:30:54 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Location_of_P=C4=81=E1=B9=ADalika_of_Loka_Vibh=C4=81ga?=
In-Reply-To: <48C03EAA-6A1B-4278-8449-27622E298284.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <48C03EAA-6A1B-4278-8449-27622E298284@aol.com>

According to Lewis Rice, Lokavibh?ga, a Jain Sanskrit work, possibly translated from Prakrit into Sanskrit, says it was copied in ?aka 380 (458 CE) in the 22nd year of Si?havarman, the lord of K??chi, by the Jain Muni Sarvanandin in the village named P??alika in the P??a-r???ra. According to Rice (EI, vol.14, p. 334), "P??alika, the village in which Sarvanandin made his copy, may be P??al?pura, in the South Arcot District. The Periya-pur??am makes it the seat of a large Jaina monastery in the 7th century. P??ar??h?ra is no doubt the territory of the B??a kings." 

 

The village called P??alika has been usually associated with Tirupp??irippuliy?r, a suburb of Cuddalore on the Tamil Nadu coast. Tamil P?tiri is the same as P??ali in Sanskrit. But we have another village called today as P??ir?ppuliy?r (near Mailam) approximately 60 km to the northwest. P?tirai in Tamil is a variant of P?tiri. Thus the present form P?tir?ppuliy?r could represent an ancient form P?tiraippuliy?r. This means P??alika could be P?tir?ppuliy?r too. ?Which one was it really? ?

 

Now we know that the ca. 6th century Va??e?uttu inscription (Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, pp. 471 and 629), which mentions the name of a Jain teacher from P???tu, is at Pa?aiya?pa??u near Aval?rp???tai and about 68 km to the northwest of P?tir?ppuliy?r. Ku?untokai 328 mentions a village called Ku?ump?r which was probably close to the territory of the P??ar, where a battle was being fought. ?I think the village of Ku?ump?r approximately 68 km north of P?tir?ppuliy?r and 13 km north of Vandavasi is probably the one mentioned in the poem. The attached Figure 1 shows the locations of P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r.

 

The attached picture shows the locations of Jain temples near the north central Tamil Nadu. Looking at the density of Jain sites, it is clear P?tir?ppuliy?r is right in the middle of them. But the Tirupp??irippuliy?r (Cuddalore) area hardly has any Jain sites. Certainly, what the Google map gives is the current picture. But the distribution of early Tamil inscriptions (2nd century BC- 6th century CE and most of them Jain) shows a similar concentration in this area as shown by Early Tamil Epigraphy Map 1 on p.34. 

 

Based on this, I propose that the location of P??alika from where Lokavibh?ga was copied is present day P?tir?ppuliy?r and that P????u mentioned in Akam 155 and the Pa?aiya?pa??u inscription and the P??a-r???ra mentioned in Lokavibh?ga should be located in the general area where P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r are located. 

 

While the area was known as P????u or P??a-r???ra from the time of Akam 155 to the 6th century, the P??ar rulers might have moved further north extending from northern Tamil Nadu into Telugu and Kannada regions by the 6th century. 

 

I welcome comments. 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Regards,

Palaniappan ?



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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Thu Mar  4 04:24:11 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 21 20:24:11 -0800
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <ME2PR01MB2756CC3BEC826FF123AE9BCEDD979@ME2PR01MB2756.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze22O8dwYjaNtwi7g6cXEOugWOAMXFjDW4+Y2VS0Q2_UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Mark,

     This divergence goes back to the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yika [rule
1.1.10] which reads: *pratham?nt?ni tr?t?y?nt?n?ti ?aunakasya pratij??na? n*
a* vr?tti?*, "It is a precept of ?aunaka that the words [*padas*] ending in
the first members of the stop-series, i.e. voiceless unaspirated stops,
should rather end in the third members, i.e. voiced unaspirated stops. Such
however, is not the recitational practice." [HOS 52]. So, should a pada end
as *tat *or *tad* seems to have been a very long debate. The practice of
the ?aunak?ya-Atharvaveda Padap??ha, as noted in the Atharva-Pr?ti??khya
reads: *tat iti tak?r?nta? ?aunake*.  This is also the case in the
manuscripts of the Padap??ha and Ja??p??ha that I used for my edition in
the *Recitational Permutations of the ?aunak?ya Atharvaveda *[HOS 61].
Such is also the practice of the RV Padap??ha. But as the rule in the
?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? shows, there was a dispute among different
scholars about this.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:33 PM Mark Allon via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
>
>
> There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to whether
> the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in *-d* or *-t*.
>
>
>
> MacDonnell?s *Sanskrit Grammar for Students* has the stems as *mad,
> asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d)*, listing the abl. forms of the
> personal pronouns as *mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad*. Of *tad *he gives the
> nom. acc. sg. n. as * tad* but lists the abl. sg. as *tasm?t*.
>
>
>
> Kale?s *Higher Sanskrit Grammar* similarly gives the stems forms in *-d*,
> has * tad* for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. *tasm?t*.
>
>
>
> *Devav???preve?ika* gives all stem and declined forms in *-t*.
>
>
>
> Whitney?s *Sanskrit Grammar* does not seem to list the stems of the
> personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in *-t* as he does with
> the dem. sg. *tasm**?t*, *asm?t*.
>
>
>
> Presumably the *-t* forms are influenced by the rule concerning permitted
> finals (*k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m* and *?*), but I take this to refer to
> sandhi in the context of sentence formation.
>
>
>
> Can we say whether *-d* or *-t* forms are original?
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Dr Mark Allon
>
> Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
>
> The University of Sydney
>
> Australia
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 06:16:22 2021
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 07:16:22 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: H. Falk's article on Copper Hoard weapons...
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoD3mjyt56nt8pymERr36uTjmJxf1jvsTkGHtoigsLJd_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoDxm-vc9G3vYX7zh=T8uTe4DuNT4AD9v=A=HVKM3dwjXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks so much to those who have sent me the article offline.
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 21:11, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
> Does anyone have a scan of
>
> Harry Falk. ?Copper Hoard Weapons and the Vedic Vajra.? In: Asko Parpola
> and Petteri Koskikallio, eds., *South Asian Archaeology* 1993, 1:
> 193?206. Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, 1994.
>
> Unfortunately, I have at present no access to my own photocopy of it.
>
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>
> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction,
> transmission
>
> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>


-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

*https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>

LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction,
transmission

et transformations d'un savoir scientifique


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From khecari at yandex.ru  Thu Mar  4 07:33:32 2021
From: khecari at yandex.ru (Evgeniya Desnitskaya)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 10:33:32 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sharma "Urban Decay in India"
Message-ID: <247431614842972@mail.yandex.ru>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Thu Mar  4 08:47:00 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 09:47:00 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dze22O8dwYjaNtwi7g6cXEOugWOAMXFjDW4+Y2VS0Q2_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70136E82-AC54-498B-9213-8EE3994EDDAC@uclouvain.be>

Noteworthily,  the R?p?vat?ra and the Siddhar?pa  (a simple list of paradigms based on the former), which clearly distinct nominal stems ("originally") in -t or -d, place the pronominal stems (tac-/yac-/etac-chabda) just after the -d stems (da-k?r?nta) not after the -t stems.


> Le 4 mars 2021 ? 05:24, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> a ?crit :
> 
> Dear Mark,
> 
>      This divergence goes back to the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yika [rule 1.1.10] which reads: pratham?nt?ni tr?t?y?nt?n?ti ?aunakasya pratij??na? na vr?tti?, "It is a precept of ?aunaka that the words [padas] ending in the first members of the stop-series, i.e. voiceless unaspirated stops, should rather end in the third members, i.e. voiced unaspirated stops. Such however, is not the recitational practice." [HOS 52]. So, should a pada end as tat or tad seems to have been a very long debate. The practice of the ?aunak?ya-Atharvaveda Padap??ha, as noted in the Atharva-Pr?ti??khya reads: tat iti tak?r?nta? ?aunake.  This is also the case in the manuscripts of the Padap??ha and Ja??p??ha that I used for my edition in the Recitational Permutations of the ?aunak?ya Atharvaveda [HOS 61].  Such is also the practice of the RV Padap??ha. But as the rule in the ?aunak?ya-Catur?dhy?yik? shows, there was a dispute among different scholars about this.
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
> 
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:33 PM Mark Allon via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
> Dear list members,
> 
>  
> 
> There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to whether the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in -d or -t.
> 
>  
> 
> MacDonnell?s Sanskrit Grammar for Students has the stems as mad, asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d), listing the abl. forms of the personal pronouns as mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad. Of tad he gives the nom. acc. sg. n. as tad but lists the abl. sg. as tasm?t.
> 
>  
> 
> Kale?s Higher Sanskrit Grammar similarly gives the stems forms in -d, has tad for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. tasm?t.
> 
>  
> 
> Devav???preve?ika gives all stem and declined forms in -t.
> 
>  
> 
> Whitney?s Sanskrit Grammar does not seem to list the stems of the personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in -t as he does with the dem. sg. tasm?t, asm?t.
> 
>  
> 
> Presumably the -t forms are influenced by the rule concerning permitted finals (k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m and ?), but I take this to refer to sandhi in the context of sentence formation.
> 
>  
> 
> Can we say whether -d or -t forms are original?
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mark
> 
>  
> 
> Dr Mark Allon
> 
> Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
> 
> The University of Sydney
> 
> Australia
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
> indology-owner at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C51201130f15642c0c07808d8dec574d5%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637504287098667309%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qd%2FUj5P5%2Fctp6Ams4D1%2Fxz3Ju8o9eq5a22Gz1D%2BSIDA%3D&reserved=0> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From baums at lmu.de  Thu Mar  4 09:32:12 2021
From: baums at lmu.de (Stefan Baums)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 10:32:12 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsBxt29hs9OvhOgFnsfOpqcN5-A1Kn1+fGNys+0=g_d=Sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87ft1btgbn.fsf@lmu.de>

Dear Antonia,

> I'm actually unsure what we reconstruct for ablative forms such
> as tasm?t (also an original -d based e.g. on Old Latin ablatives
> in -od (long o)/-?d?)

*-?t seems to be the standard assumption, so for instance in the
declension tables in Meier-Br?gger?s Einf?hrung ? 311 and Sihler?s
Comparative Grammar ? 255 (variant *-?t), though then in his
discussion in ? 257 Sihler has ?*-t (? or *-d) preceded by a long
vowel.? He adduces Hittite instr. -at, abl. -az(a) < *-ati, and
does seem to consider Sabellian *-?d as secondary, namely from
?**-o-Vt.?

Macdonell, Kale and Whitney presumably just chose the Sanskrit
sandhi forms that corresponded to their understanding of the
Indo-European background of the nominative and ablative.

All best,
Stefan

-- 
Stefan Baums, Ph.D.
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen




From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Thu Mar  4 13:51:05 2021
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 13:51:05 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Location_of_P=C4=81=E1=B9=ADalika_of_Loka_Vibh=C4=81ga?=
In-Reply-To: <48C03EAA-6A1B-4278-8449-27622E298284@aol.com>
Message-ID: <faaa48a5aae6497b81215367c6fceb8f@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

You ask for reactions. Mine is restricted to Ku?untokai 328 and Akan????u 155.
The latter poem does indeed mention P????u (or p????u), but as far as I can see the context does not provide any information about its position on the map of South India.
The case of Ku?untokai 328 is more complicated. It mentions a battle between the inhabitants of Ku?ump?r, the Vicciyar, and the v?ntar, or a king, or all the kings, of the great dynasties. I have not been able to locate the Vicciyar. However, a Vicikk?, or ?Vicci king? is mentioned in Pu?an????u 200,8 and a Vicci in Pati??uppattu, Patikam 9, 4 (p. 384).

The second part of Ku?. 328 reads:

                                    alar?
vilke?u t??ai vicciyar perumaka?
v?ntaro?u poruta ????aip p??ar
pulin?kku?a?nilai ka??a
kalike?u ku?ump?r ?rppi?um perit?.

Eva Wilden offers the following translation:

[The] gossip is louder than the roaring of bustling Ku?ump?r, which has seen [ka??a] the posture [nilai] of bards [p??ar], resembling [u?a?] tigers [puli] (exchanging) looks [n?kku], at a time when the great son of the Vicciyar with the bow-armed army fought with the kings [v???ar].

As Wilden admits in the notes to this translation she herself could not make sense of the text. The translation is the outcome of consultations with Gopal Iyer.

In her edition Wilden has collected the variant readings of all the manuscripts and editions available. Unfortunately, she does not do anything with this material. For pulin?kku?a?nilai (puli, ?tiger?, n?kku, ?look, gaze?, u?a?, ?resembling?, nilai, ?posture? (and many other meanings, from the verb nil- ?to stand, remain, stop?)) there are two interesting variants, puli-n?r-ku?a?-nilai and puli-n?r-ku?a?a?-nilai. ku?a?a? in the latter may well stand for ku?al?a?, ?dwarf?. The following is a rough paraphrase:

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than that in Ku?ump?r produced by the bards on the day of the battle between the Vicciyar with the great kings, which they (the bards) considered a case (nilai, but compare Skt ny?ya) of a dwarf taking on (n?r, see DED 3132) a tiger.

I admit that all this is not really an answer to your question.

Herman



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 04:30:54
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

According to Lewis Rice, Lokavibh?ga, a Jain Sanskrit work, possibly translated from Prakrit into Sanskrit, says it was copied in ?aka 380 (458 CE) in the 22nd year of Si?havarman, the lord of K??chi, by the Jain Muni Sarvanandin in the village named P??alika in the P??a-r???ra. According to Rice (EI, vol.14, p. 334), "P??alika, the village in which Sarvanandin made his copy, may be P??al?pura, in the South Arcot District. The Periya-pur??am makes it the seat of a large Jaina monastery in the 7th century. P??ar??h?ra is no doubt the territory of the B??a kings."

The village called P??alika has been usually associated with Tirupp??irippuliy?r, a suburb of Cuddalore on the Tamil Nadu coast. Tamil P?tiri is the same as P??ali in Sanskrit. But we have another village called today as P??ir?ppuliy?r (near Mailam) approximately 60 km to the northwest. P?tirai in Tamil is a variant of P?tiri. Thus the present form P?tir?ppuliy?r could represent an ancient form P?tiraippuliy?r. This means P??alika could be P?tir?ppuliy?r too.  Which one was it really?

Now we know that the ca. 6th century Va??e?uttu inscription (Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, pp. 471 and 629), which mentions the name of a Jain teacher from P???tu, is at Pa?aiya?pa??u near Aval?rp???tai and about 68 km to the northwest of P?tir?ppuliy?r. Ku?untokai 328 mentions a village called Ku?ump?r which was probably close to the territory of the P??ar, where a battle was being fought.  I think the village of Ku?ump?r approximately 68 km north of P?tir?ppuliy?r and 13 km north of Vandavasi is probably the one mentioned in the poem. The attached Figure 1 shows the locations of P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r.

The attached picture shows the locations of Jain temples near the north central Tamil Nadu. Looking at the density of Jain sites, it is clear P?tir?ppuliy?r is right in the middle of them. But the Tirupp??irippuliy?r (Cuddalore) area hardly has any Jain sites. Certainly, what the Google map gives is the current picture. But the distribution of early Tamil inscriptions (2nd century BC- 6th century CE and most of them Jain) shows a similar concentration in this area as shown by Early Tamil Epigraphy Map 1 on p.34.

Based on this, I propose that the location of P??alika from where Lokavibh?ga was copied is present day P?tir?ppuliy?r and that P????u mentioned in Akam 155 and the Pa?aiya?pa??u inscription and the P??a-r???ra mentioned in Lokavibh?ga should be located in the general area where P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r are located.

While the area was known as P????u or P??a-r???ra from the time of Akam 155 to the 6th century, the P??ar rulers might have moved further north extending from northern Tamil Nadu into Telugu and Kannada regions by the 6th century.

I welcome comments.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 14:42:16 2021
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 09:42:16 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoDxm-vc9G3vYX7zh=T8uTe4DuNT4AD9v=A=HVKM3dwjXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <323B7070-EE2D-4AC2-B432-58F66907AF26@gmail.com>

Dear helpful colleagues,

In Volker Caumanns? book, Shakya-mchog-ldan, Mah?pa??ita des Klosters gSer-mdog-can (Wiesbaden, 2015), he presents material on an Indian monk in Tibet named Lokottara, who self-identifies as of the S??mit?ya nik?ya, and says his home is in eastern India, in a place called Sa?gharatna. This is 15th century. I know of a Sa?gharatna in Kerala, but not one in eastern India. Would anyone have a clue where that might have been (still is?), and what might correspond to it in today?s India?

Thank you.
Dan


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Thu Mar  4 15:11:24 2021
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 15:11:24 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <323B7070-EE2D-4AC2-B432-58F66907AF26@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB43965C9F2B0CC38643B8E759A1979@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Dan,

Just a guess: perhaps a euphemism for Ratnagiri, Orissa, which was still active at that time.

best
Matthew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 4, 2021 3:42:16 PM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] locating Sa?gharatna

Dear helpful colleagues,

In Volker Caumanns? book, Shakya-mchog-ldan, Mah?pa??ita des Klosters gSer-mdog-can (Wiesbaden, 2015), he presents material on an Indian monk in Tibet named Lokottara, who self-identifies as of the S??mit?ya nik?ya, and says his home is in eastern India, in a place called Sa?gharatna. This is 15th century. I know of a Sa?gharatna in Kerala, but not one in eastern India. Would anyone have a clue where that might have been (still is?), and what might correspond to it in today?s India?

Thank you.
Dan


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From szantopeterdaniel at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 15:21:46 2021
From: szantopeterdaniel at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?UMOpdGVyLUTDoW5pZWwgU3rDoW50w7M=?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 17:21:46 +0200
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <323B7070-EE2D-4AC2-B432-58F66907AF26@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANS3gun-LyVSGRKtaxRduCPBRrTHCCLuFQj2i02kGhRPoxC0EQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Dan,

I find this website very useful when looking up toponyms:
http://india.csis.u-tokyo.ac.jp. That said, I didn't find anything
conclusive.

My hunch (very scholarly, I know...) is that it could be Sylhet through a
progressive corruption of ?r?ha??a (e.g. *Siriha? ?a, *Saraha??a, etc.) and
finally Tibetan editors trying to make some sense out of the reading.

Best wishes,
Peter


On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 at 16:42, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear helpful colleagues,
>
> In Volker Caumanns? book, *Shakya-mchog-ldan, Mah?pa??ita des Klosters
> gSer-mdog-can *(Wiesbaden, 2015), he presents material on an Indian monk
> in Tibet named Lokottara, who self-identifies as of the S??mit?ya nik?ya,
> and says his home is in eastern India, in a place called Sa?gharatna. This
> is 15th century. I know of a Sa?gharatna in Kerala, but not one in eastern
> India. Would anyone have a clue where that might have been (still is?), and
> what might correspond to it in today?s India?
>
> Thank you.
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From martin-joachim.kuemmel at uni-jena.de  Thu Mar  4 15:25:58 2021
From: martin-joachim.kuemmel at uni-jena.de (=?utf-8?Q?Martin_Joachim_K=C3=BCmmel?=)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 15:25:58 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <87ft1btgbn.fsf@lmu.de>
Message-ID: <6a650a1252b148ce9b191e2e128b5d20@uni-jena.de>

Dear all,

since all distinctions between stop series were probably neutralized in word-final position since Proto-Indo-European times, it is actually impossible to know if it was originally *-t or *-d. In case of verb endings we can tell, since the extended variants *-ti (and *-to) point to *t. But for the neuter pronoun ending or the ablative, we do not have such a very secure clue. For the latter, the Anatolian ending *-ti, if connected, would also point to *t. In general I would say that *t is more probable in any case, since plain voiceless stops are much more frequent in affixes and endings than any other series. So, from an IE perspective, it does not matter so much, but *t is the best original option for the underlying sound. There is evidence for final "weakening" in the sense that this could be identified with the "media" *d in absolute final position as well as in sandhi before voiced sounds, but that is just a sandhi rule quite independent of the original underlying sound.

All best wishes,
Martin

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Stefan Baums <baums at lmu.de> 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. M?rz 2021 10:32
An: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Betreff: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d

Dear Antonia,

> I'm actually unsure what we reconstruct for ablative forms such as 
> tasm?t (also an original -d based e.g. on Old Latin ablatives in -od 
> (long o)/-?d?)

*-?t seems to be the standard assumption, so for instance in the declension tables in Meier-Br?gger?s Einf?hrung ? 311 and Sihler?s Comparative Grammar ? 255 (variant *-?t), though then in his discussion in ? 257 Sihler has ?*-t (? or *-d) preceded by a long vowel.? He adduces Hittite instr. -at, abl. -az(a) < *-ati, and does seem to consider Sabellian *-?d as secondary, namely from ?**-o-Vt.?

Macdonell, Kale and Whitney presumably just chose the Sanskrit sandhi forms that corresponded to their understanding of the Indo-European background of the nominative and ablative.

All best,
Stefan

--
Stefan Baums, Ph.D.
Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
Ludwig?Maximilians?Universit?t M?nchen
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From rdamron at berkeley.edu  Thu Mar  4 15:59:24 2021
From: rdamron at berkeley.edu (Ryan Damron)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 07:59:24 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <323B7070-EE2D-4AC2-B432-58F66907AF26@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <786E4565-F99A-416F-A181-67A3624D706B@berkeley.edu>

Dear Dan,

I can?t say anything specific about Sa?gharatna, but I?m presently wrapping up my dissertation on Vanaratna (1384-1468), who I?m sure you know was a contemporary of Lokottara and said to hail from the same generic ?eastern India.? Vanaratna is even referenced in ??kya mchog ldan?s rnam thar in close proximity to passages on Lokottara. Vanaratna was from Sadnagara, which I couldn?t definitively identify, but which based on evidence from Vanaratna's rnam thar I can locate with reasonable certainty in the easternmost Bengal delta, some distance north of Chittagong, possibly up in the Tripura hills (It is clear that Vanaratna is not from Chittagong proper, as is too often reported). All this is to say that this area was still nominally an active Buddhist region at the turn of the 15th century, though it was in steep decline. Thus this is one area to look at as a possible location for Sa?gharatna. 

If you haven?t done so already, have a look at Arthur McKeown?s Guardian of a Dying Flame, a study of another, slightly earlier figure from the same region, ??riputra (1335-1426). He speculates on the possible locations of ??riputra's birthplace, which was also in eastern India. 

Are you familiar with T?ran?tha?s description of the eastern region of ?Koki,? which while not without problems is a useful description of the Tibetan understanding of Buddhism in Eastern India and SE Asia. The passage beings somewhere around folio 131v in his history of India (see BDRC no. W22276)

I was genuinely intrigued by the little I read about Lokottara in ??kya mchog ldan?s rnam thar, so I?m glad to hear work is being done on him. 

Best wishes,

Ryan


Ryan Damron
Doctoral Candidate
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California, Berkeley
7233 Dwinelle Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720-2520
rdamron at berkeley.edu <mailto:rdamron at berkeley.edu>
Ryan Damron
Doctoral Candidate
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California, Berkeley
7233 Dwinelle Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720-2520
rdamron at berkeley.edu

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 6:42 AM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dear helpful colleagues,
> 
> In Volker Caumanns? book, Shakya-mchog-ldan, Mah?pa??ita des Klosters gSer-mdog-can (Wiesbaden, 2015), he presents material on an Indian monk in Tibet named Lokottara, who self-identifies as of the S??mit?ya nik?ya, and says his home is in eastern India, in a place called Sa?gharatna. This is 15th century. I know of a Sa?gharatna in Kerala, but not one in eastern India. Would anyone have a clue where that might have been (still is?), and what might correspond to it in today?s India?
> 
> Thank you.
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 17:09:31 2021
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 12:09:31 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <786E4565-F99A-416F-A181-67A3624D706B@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <FB53CD7C-20CE-4F29-8051-A014AFC130EB@gmail.com>

Thank you, Matthew, Peter and Ryan, for your suggestions. The geographic web site is quite addictive and a useful resource! Thanks for that.

Ryan, your pointers are also helpful. Do you have any indications that others in that region also identified as S??mit?yas? In addition to saying his parents were brahmins (suggesting a brahmanic upbringing which might be why his Sanskrit was so impressive), he also says of himself:

 [As for my] knowledge (yon tan), [I] am practiced in Madhyamaka and Pram??a. I know by heart the commentaries [made] by Devendrabuddhi and ??kyabuddhi on Dharmak??rti's Pram??av?rttika. In addition, I am well versed in the commentaries on Praj??karagupta, Dharmottara, and Yam?ri?
[My translation from Caumanns?s German translation]

[Was meine] Kenntnisse (yon tan) [angeht, so] bin [ich] im Madhyamaka und im Pram??a ge?bt. Die Kommentare, [die] Devendrabuddhi und ??kyabuddhi zu Dharmak??rtis Pram??av?rttika [verfassten], kenne ich auswendig. Dar?ber hinaus bin ich auch bewandert in den Kommentaren des Praj??karagupta, des Dharmottara und des Yam?ri.

It?s as if, while being a S??mit?ya, he is offering a cv touting his expertise in the doctrinal qualities (yon tan = gu?as) desired and in demand at that time from possible Tibetan patrons.

thanks,
Dan




From rdamron at berkeley.edu  Thu Mar  4 17:37:21 2021
From: rdamron at berkeley.edu (Ryan Damron)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 09:37:21 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <FB53CD7C-20CE-4F29-8051-A014AFC130EB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5D65B313-C3DB-428C-8FC1-87F2372597F9@berkeley.edu>

Dear Dan,

I didn?t come across any references to the S??mit?yas in Vanaratna?s rnam thars or related materials. In a conversation reported in ??kya mchog ldan?s rnam thar, Vanaratna tells the adolescent ??kya mchog ldan that he was ordained as a Sarv?stiv?din, and gZhon nu dpal identifies this as the vinaya lineage he received at the Mah?caitya Vih?ra in Sadnagara. Given the time period I think we can safely assume this means the M?lasarv?stiv?din. That said, there are traces of P?li and Therava?sa influences in Vanaratna?s early narrative (heavily obscured by the Tibetan biographers, if not Vanaratna himself), so I suspect the situation was much more complex than the rnam thars let on. 

Vanaratna is reported to have received a broad Mah?y?na-Vajray?na education in Sadnagara before leaving home for his life of epic travel, but whether the extent of his education described in the rnam thars marks a deliberate attempt to bolster his credentials for his Tibetan audience (or by his Tibetan audience) is a question I address but don?t fully resolve. It does seem that a Mahay?na-Vajray?na education was still available in the region at the turn of the fifteenth century, but the quality and extent of it is uncertain.

Best wishes,

Ryan

Ryan Damron
Doctoral Candidate
Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
University of California, Berkeley
7233 Dwinelle Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720-2520
rdamron at berkeley.edu

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 9:09 AM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thank you, Matthew, Peter and Ryan, for your suggestions. The geographic web site is quite addictive and a useful resource! Thanks for that.
> 
> Ryan, your pointers are also helpful. Do you have any indications that others in that region also identified as S??mit?yas? In addition to saying his parents were brahmins (suggesting a brahmanic upbringing which might be why his Sanskrit was so impressive), he also says of himself:
> 
> [As for my] knowledge (yon tan), [I] am practiced in Madhyamaka and Pram??a. I know by heart the commentaries [made] by Devendrabuddhi and ??kyabuddhi on Dharmak??rti's Pram??av?rttika. In addition, I am well versed in the commentaries on Praj??karagupta, Dharmottara, and Yam?ri?
> [My translation from Caumanns?s German translation]
> 
> [Was meine] Kenntnisse (yon tan) [angeht, so] bin [ich] im Madhyamaka und im Pram??a ge?bt. Die Kommentare, [die] Devendrabuddhi und ??kyabuddhi zu Dharmak??rtis Pram??av?rttika [verfassten], kenne ich auswendig. Dar?ber hinaus bin ich auch bewandert in den Kommentaren des Praj??karagupta, des Dharmottara und des Yam?ri.
> 
> It?s as if, while being a S??mit?ya, he is offering a cv touting his expertise in the doctrinal qualities (yon tan = gu?as) desired and in demand at that time from possible Tibetan patrons.
> 
> thanks,
> Dan



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From prajnapti at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 18:02:46 2021
From: prajnapti at gmail.com (Dan Lusthaus)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 13:02:46 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_locating_Sa=E1=B9=83gharatna?=
In-Reply-To: <5D65B313-C3DB-428C-8FC1-87F2372597F9@berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <EE8F65C5-2D28-43DC-995B-5BA0C21F1128@gmail.com>

Dear Ryan,

I agree that things on the ground were probably never as clear-cut as our modern doxographies typically presume. Just a few days ago I was reminded of the following passage from Yijing?s Buddhist Monastic Traditions of Southern Asia (sometimes known in secondary lit. romanization as I-Tsing, because of how Takakusu?s 1896 translation of rendered Yijing?s name). What he describes, which would reflect the situation in the second half of the 7th century, probably remained the case for awhile, especially the ?mixing? of the two y?nas. Here is Li Rongxi?s tr. of the passage.

Among the four schools there is no definite classification as to which ones should be put under Mahayana and which ones under Hinayana. In the regions of North India and the South Seas, what is prevalent is purely Hinayana, while in the Divine Land of China, the monks keep the great teaching in their minds. At other places both the Mahayana and the Hinayana are practiced in a mixed way. Through an examination of their practices, we see no differences in their disciplinary rules and restrictions. Both of them classify the Vinaya rules into five sections and practice the four noble truths. Those who worship bodhisattvas and read Mahayana scriptures are named Mahayanists, and those who do not do so are called Hinayanists. What is known as Mahayana consists of only two sub-schools, first, the Madhyamika and second, the Yogacara. (p. 14)

??????????1?????????????????????????????????????[18]????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????(CBETA, T54, no. 2125, p. 205, c8-14)
[18]?????????????

Dan

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 12:37 PM, Ryan Damron <rdamron at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> 
> Dear Dan,
> 
> I didn?t come across any references to the S??mit?yas in Vanaratna?s rnam thars or related materials. In a conversation reported in ??kya mchog ldan?s rnam thar, Vanaratna tells the adolescent ??kya mchog ldan that he was ordained as a Sarv?stiv?din, and gZhon nu dpal identifies this as the vinaya lineage he received at the Mah?caitya Vih?ra in Sadnagara. Given the time period I think we can safely assume this means the M?lasarv?stiv?din. That said, there are traces of P?li and Therava?sa influences in Vanaratna?s early narrative (heavily obscured by the Tibetan biographers, if not Vanaratna himself), so I suspect the situation was much more complex than the rnam thars let on. 
> 
> Vanaratna is reported to have received a broad Mah?y?na-Vajray?na education in Sadnagara before leaving home for his life of epic travel, but whether the extent of his education described in the rnam thars marks a deliberate attempt to bolster his credentials for his Tibetan audience (or by his Tibetan audience) is a question I address but don?t fully resolve. It does seem that a Mahay?na-Vajray?na education was still available in the region at the turn of the fifteenth century, but the quality and extent of it is uncertain.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Ryan
> 
> Ryan Damron
> Doctoral Candidate
> Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
> University of California, Berkeley
> 7233 Dwinelle Hall
> Berkeley, CA 94720-2520
> rdamron at berkeley.edu <mailto:rdamron at berkeley.edu>
> 
>> On Mar 4, 2021, at 9:09 AM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com <mailto:prajnapti at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you, Matthew, Peter and Ryan, for your suggestions. The geographic web site is quite addictive and a useful resource! Thanks for that.
>> 
>> Ryan, your pointers are also helpful. Do you have any indications that others in that region also identified as S??mit?yas? In addition to saying his parents were brahmins (suggesting a brahmanic upbringing which might be why his Sanskrit was so impressive), he also says of himself:
>> 
>> [As for my] knowledge (yon tan), [I] am practiced in Madhyamaka and Pram??a. I know by heart the commentaries [made] by Devendrabuddhi and ??kyabuddhi on Dharmak??rti's Pram??av?rttika. In addition, I am well versed in the commentaries on Praj??karagupta, Dharmottara, and Yam?ri?
>> [My translation from Caumanns?s German translation]
>> 
>> [Was meine] Kenntnisse (yon tan) [angeht, so] bin [ich] im Madhyamaka und im Pram??a ge?bt. Die Kommentare, [die] Devendrabuddhi und ??kyabuddhi zu Dharmak??rtis Pram??av?rttika [verfassten], kenne ich auswendig. Dar?ber hinaus bin ich auch bewandert in den Kommentaren des Praj??karagupta, des Dharmottara und des Yam?ri.
>> 
>> It?s as if, while being a S??mit?ya, he is offering a cv touting his expertise in the doctrinal qualities (yon tan = gu?as) desired and in demand at that time from possible Tibetan patrons.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Dan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Thu Mar  4 20:06:29 2021
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 21 20:06:29 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Location_of_P=C4=81=E1=B9=ADalika_of_Loka_Vibh=C4=81ga?=
In-Reply-To: <faaa48a5aae6497b81215367c6fceb8f@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <6a07eaf148c14285bf2452c1bce64408@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Correction


The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than the noise in Ku?ump?r ...


Mind you, it is a rough paraphrase.


Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 14:51:05
Aan: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

You ask for reactions. Mine is restricted to Ku?untokai 328 and Akan????u 155.
The latter poem does indeed mention P????u (or p????u), but as far as I can see the context does not provide any information about its position on the map of South India.
The case of Ku?untokai 328 is more complicated. It mentions a battle between the inhabitants of Ku?ump?r, the Vicciyar, and the v?ntar, or a king, or all the kings, of the great dynasties. I have not been able to locate the Vicciyar. However, a Vicikk?, or ?Vicci king? is mentioned in Pu?an????u 200,8 and a Vicci in Pati??uppattu, Patikam 9, 4 (p. 384).

The second part of Ku?. 328 reads:

                                    alar?
vilke?u t??ai vicciyar perumaka?
v?ntaro?u poruta ????aip p??ar
pulin?kku?a?nilai ka??a
kalike?u ku?ump?r ?rppi?um perit?.

Eva Wilden offers the following translation:

[The] gossip is louder than the roaring of bustling Ku?ump?r, which has seen [ka??a] the posture [nilai] of bards [p??ar], resembling [u?a?] tigers [puli] (exchanging) looks [n?kku], at a time when the great son of the Vicciyar with the bow-armed army fought with the kings [v???ar].

As Wilden admits in the notes to this translation she herself could not make sense of the text. The translation is the outcome of consultations with Gopal Iyer.

In her edition Wilden has collected the variant readings of all the manuscripts and editions available. Unfortunately, she does not do anything with this material. For pulin?kku?a?nilai (puli, ?tiger?, n?kku, ?look, gaze?, u?a?, ?resembling?, nilai, ?posture? (and many other meanings, from the verb nil- ?to stand, remain, stop?)) there are two interesting variants, puli-n?r-ku?a?-nilai and puli-n?r-ku?a?a?-nilai. ku?a?a? in the latter may well stand for ku?al?a?, ?dwarf?. The following is a rough paraphrase:

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than that in Ku?ump?r produced by the bards on the day of the battle between the Vicciyar with the great kings, which they (the bards) considered a case (nilai, but compare Skt ny?ya) of a dwarf taking on (n?r, see DED 3132) a tiger.

I admit that all this is not really an answer to your question.

Herman



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 04:30:54
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

According to Lewis Rice, Lokavibh?ga, a Jain Sanskrit work, possibly translated from Prakrit into Sanskrit, says it was copied in ?aka 380 (458 CE) in the 22nd year of Si?havarman, the lord of K??chi, by the Jain Muni Sarvanandin in the village named P??alika in the P??a-r???ra. According to Rice (EI, vol.14, p. 334), "P??alika, the village in which Sarvanandin made his copy, may be P??al?pura, in the South Arcot District. The Periya-pur??am makes it the seat of a large Jaina monastery in the 7th century. P??ar??h?ra is no doubt the territory of the B??a kings."

The village called P??alika has been usually associated with Tirupp??irippuliy?r, a suburb of Cuddalore on the Tamil Nadu coast. Tamil P?tiri is the same as P??ali in Sanskrit. But we have another village called today as P??ir?ppuliy?r (near Mailam) approximately 60 km to the northwest. P?tirai in Tamil is a variant of P?tiri. Thus the present form P?tir?ppuliy?r could represent an ancient form P?tiraippuliy?r. This means P??alika could be P?tir?ppuliy?r too.  Which one was it really?

Now we know that the ca. 6th century Va??e?uttu inscription (Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, pp. 471 and 629), which mentions the name of a Jain teacher from P???tu, is at Pa?aiya?pa??u near Aval?rp???tai and about 68 km to the northwest of P?tir?ppuliy?r. Ku?untokai 328 mentions a village called Ku?ump?r which was probably close to the territory of the P??ar, where a battle was being fought.  I think the village of Ku?ump?r approximately 68 km north of P?tir?ppuliy?r and 13 km north of Vandavasi is probably the one mentioned in the poem. The attached Figure 1 shows the locations of P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r.

The attached picture shows the locations of Jain temples near the north central Tamil Nadu. Looking at the density of Jain sites, it is clear P?tir?ppuliy?r is right in the middle of them. But the Tirupp??irippuliy?r (Cuddalore) area hardly has any Jain sites. Certainly, what the Google map gives is the current picture. But the distribution of early Tamil inscriptions (2nd century BC- 6th century CE and most of them Jain) shows a similar concentration in this area as shown by Early Tamil Epigraphy Map 1 on p.34.

Based on this, I propose that the location of P??alika from where Lokavibh?ga was copied is present day P?tir?ppuliy?r and that P????u mentioned in Akam 155 and the Pa?aiya?pa??u inscription and the P??a-r???ra mentioned in Lokavibh?ga should be located in the general area where P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r are located.

While the area was known as P????u or P??a-r???ra from the time of Akam 155 to the 6th century, the P??ar rulers might have moved further north extending from northern Tamil Nadu into Telugu and Kannada regions by the 6th century.

I welcome comments.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From mark.allon at sydney.edu.au  Sat Mar  6 04:29:33 2021
From: mark.allon at sydney.edu.au (Mark Allon)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 21 04:29:33 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: -t/-d
In-Reply-To: <ME2PR01MB2756CC3BEC826FF123AE9BCEDD979@ME2PR01MB2756.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <SYAPR01MB2767F0A1E330C8CF7D9FBB8CDD959@SYAPR01MB2767.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Dear list members,

Thank you to those who responded to my question.

Best wishes
Mark

Dr Mark Allon
Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
The University of Sydney
Australia



From: Mark Allon
Sent: Thursday, 4 March 2021 1:33 PM
To: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: -t/-d

Dear list members,

There seems to be inconsistency in modern Sanskrit grammars as to whether the stems of pronouns and declined forms end in -d or -t.

MacDonnell?s Sanskrit Grammar for Students has the stems as mad, asmad, tvad, yu?mad, ta(d), ya(d), listing the abl. forms of the personal pronouns as mad, tvad, asmad, yu?mad. Of tad he gives the nom. acc. sg. n. as tad but lists the abl. sg. as tasm?t.

Kale?s Higher Sanskrit Grammar similarly gives the stems forms in -d, has tad for nom. acc. sg. n., but abl. tasm?t.

Devav???preve?ika gives all stem and declined forms in -t.

Whitney?s Sanskrit Grammar does not seem to list the stems of the personal pronouns but gives the abl. singulars in -t as he does with the dem. sg. tasm?t, asm?t.

Presumably the -t forms are influenced by the rule concerning permitted finals (k, ?, t, p, ?, n, m and ?), but I take this to refer to sandhi in the context of sentence formation.

Can we say whether -d or -t forms are original?

Regards
Mark

Dr Mark Allon
Chair, Dept. of Indian Subcontinental Studies
The University of Sydney
Australia



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From acchoda at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 12:21:30 2021
From: acchoda at gmail.com (David Smith)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 21 12:21:30 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Seeking_pdf_of_Pushpa_Gupta_1993_Rasa_in_the_Jaina_Sanskrit_mah=C4=81k=C4=81vyas?=
Message-ID: <CAA=_wHe+B_cGY_7Qy3dKAiFik8nijq7QexF+PfGri66rUeaCxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
I'd be most grateful for a pdf of Pushpa Gupta 1993 Rasa in the Jaina
Sanskrit mah?k?vyas.
Best wishes
David Smith

-- 
Dr David Smith
Reader in South Asian Religions (retired)
Lancaster University
UK
https://lancaster.academia.edu/DavidSmith
acchoda at gmail.com


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 19:00:55 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 21 12:00:55 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB439676C10E6E8A7193E5726BA1999@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeSeMxo2VSPtXJTdZnASc0JWqm4nOYdDuv+_GTZLPgiug@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 at 02:39, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu> wrote:

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley
> seals has been much contested during the last few decades [...]
>

I was long ago convinced by the compelling arguments of Doris Srinivasan
that the Indus seals having nothing to do with either ?iva or yoga.

Srinivasan, Doris. ?The So-Called Proto-?Iva Seal from Mohenjo-Daro: An
Iconological Assessment.? *Archives of Asian Art*, 29 (1975): 47?58.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/20062578.

Srinivasan, Doris. ?Unhinging ?Iva from the Indus Civilization.? *Journal
of the Royal Asiatic Society*, 116, no. 1 (1984): 77?89.
https://doi.org/10.1017/s0035869x00166134.
Surely this issue isn't "much contested" any more, at least scholarly
circles?

Further discussion in Samuel, Geoffrey. *The Origins of Yoga and Tantra:
Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century.* Cambridge: Cambridge University
Press, 2008, in Asko's work and elsewhere.

Best,
Dominik


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Sat Mar  6 21:02:56 2021
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 21 21:02:56 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: archeological puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeSeMxo2VSPtXJTdZnASc0JWqm4nOYdDuv+_GTZLPgiug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB43961285E5DCE8A588403AA3A1959@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Yes, that?s precisely what I was referring to, Dominik.
Best,
Matthew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:00:55 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
Cc: Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] archeological puzzle



On Tue, 2 Mar 2021 at 02:39, Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu<mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>> wrote:

I am aware that the "proto-Siva" interpretation of certain Indus Valley seals has been much contested during the last few decades [...]

I was long ago convinced by the compelling arguments of Doris Srinivasan that the Indus seals having nothing to do with either ?iva or yoga.

Srinivasan, Doris. ?The So-Called Proto-?Iva Seal from Mohenjo-Daro: An Iconological Assessment.? Archives of Asian Art, 29 (1975): 47?58. http://www.jstor.org/stable/20062578.

Srinivasan, Doris. ?Unhinging ?Iva from the Indus Civilization.? Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 116, no. 1 (1984): 77?89. https://doi.org/10.1017/s0035869x00166134.
Surely this issue isn't "much contested" any more, at least scholarly circles?

Further discussion in Samuel, Geoffrey. The Origins of Yoga and Tantra: Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2008, in Asko's work and elsewhere.

Best,
Dominik



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From amitc at hawaii.edu  Mon Mar  8 03:52:21 2021
From: amitc at hawaii.edu (Amit Chaturvedi)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 21 11:52:21 +0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Request_for_Davidson_(1985),_"Buddhist_systems_of_transformation_:_A=CC=84s=CC=81raya-parivr=CC=A3tti/-para=CC=84vr=CC=A3tti_among_the_Yoga=CC=84ca=CC=84ra"?=
Message-ID: <CAGRDavSAqxRSae_Z5=3cVdZ2-umHB6tnihDxp5vj3UbO2oki0w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Indology Listmembers,

Would anyone be able to pass along a pdf copy of Ronald Davidson's 1985
dissertation, "Buddhist systems of transformation :
A?s?raya-parivr?tti/-para?vr?tti among the Yoga?ca?ra"?

Many thanks,
Amit Chaturvedi


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From tccahill at loyno.edu  Mon Mar  8 05:26:43 2021
From: tccahill at loyno.edu (Timothy Cahill)
Date: Sun, 07 Mar 21 23:26:43 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Padyatara=E1=B9=85gin=C4=AB_&_Prast=C4=81vamukt=C4=81val=C4=AB?=
Message-ID: <CAPz9vj-1VgRZ+hioeC9AYxByrUaAZauUxZ6ZUabBPkpbywz9bw@mail.gmail.com>

I'd appreciate a copy of an article by N.R. Gore that has the text (or
prat?kas) of Vrajan?tha's Padyatara?gin?.  Poona Orientalist vol. 11 pp.
46-55.

Also, I have Kulkarni's article on the Prast?vamukt?val? was published in
the Bulletin of the Deccan College Research Institute (1958). Does anyone
know if this text was ever published?

Thanks in advance,
Tim Cahill
Associate Professor
Department of Religious Studies
Loyola University New Orleans
6363 St. Charles Ave.
New Orleans, Louisiana  70118
USA


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From kiepue at t-online.de  Mon Mar  8 09:32:18 2021
From: kiepue at t-online.de (=?utf-8?Q?Petra_Kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 21 10:32:18 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on Buddhist Monastic Cultures. German-Japanese Collaboration
Message-ID: <570BDB2D-5F2D-438A-AA89-9C69767CFB70@t-online.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

I would like to draw your attention to the following zoom-lecture series:

Studies on Buddhist Monastic Cultures. 
German-Japanese Collaboration

March 17th and 24th 2021, 9.00?12.00 AM (German Time Zone) /5.00?8.00 PM (Japan Time Zone)

Registration: ogura at aa.tufs.ac.jp <mailto:ogura at aa.tufs.ac.jp>

For the detailed program see the following link

https://veranstaltungen.uni-halle.de/files/events/20210222130820_studies-on-buddhist-monastic-culturesprogram.pdf <https://veranstaltungen.uni-halle.de/files/events/20210222130820_studies-on-buddhist-monastic-culturesprogram.pdf>


With kind regards,
Petra Kieffer-P?lz



********************************

Petra Kieffer-Puelz
 ? Indologie ?
Seminar f?r S?dasienkunde und Indologie
Orientalisches Institut
Martin-Luther-Universit?t
Halle-Wittenberg

Email: petra.kieffer-puelz at indologie.uni-halle.de <mailto:petra.kieffer-puelz at indologie.uni-halle.de>







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From kiepue at t-online.de  Mon Mar  8 09:55:37 2021
From: kiepue at t-online.de (=?utf-8?Q?Petra_Kieffer-P=C3=BClz?=)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 21 10:55:37 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Studies on Buddhist Monastic Cultures, Second attempt
Message-ID: <D614F2E5-1EDC-4E4B-8A71-F8B86F37CCA4@t-online.de>

Dear colleagues and friends,

I would like to draw your attention to the following zoom-lecture series:

Studies on Buddhist Monastic Cultures. 
German-Japanese Collaboration

March 17th and 24th 2021, 9.00?12.00 AM (German Time Zone) /5.00?8.00 PM (Japan Time Zone)

Registration: ogura at aa.tufs.ac.jp <mailto:ogura at aa.tufs.ac.jp>

For the detailed program see the following link

https://veranstaltungen.uni-halle.de/files/events/20210222130820_studies-on-buddhist-monastic-culturesprogram.pdf <https://veranstaltungen.uni-halle.de/files/events/20210222130820_studies-on-buddhist-monastic-culturesprogram.pdf>


With kind regards,
Petra Kieffer-P?lz



********************************

Petra Kieffer-Puelz
 ? Indologie ?
Seminar f?r S?dasienkunde und Indologie
Orientalisches Institut
Martin-Luther-Universit?t
Halle-Wittenberg

Email: petra.kieffer-puelz at indologie.uni-halle.de <mailto:petra.kieffer-puelz at indologie.uni-halle.de>







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From hegartyjm at googlemail.com  Tue Mar  9 08:36:44 2021
From: hegartyjm at googlemail.com (James Hegarty)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 08:36:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf Request - Rocher's 'The Ambassador'
Message-ID: <4B31E316-C258-45DA-96E1-0B16E71BD5A6@googlemail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Would anyone be able to supply me with Ludo Rocher?s ?The 'Ambassador' in Ancient India? from the Indian Year Book of International Affairs (Madras) 1958?

With Thanks and Best Wishes,

James Hegarty
Cardiff University
UK


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Tue Mar  9 08:43:32 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 09:43:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Pdf Request - Rocher's 'The Ambassador'
In-Reply-To: <4B31E316-C258-45DA-96E1-0B16E71BD5A6@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <1462059E-3BE9-4B99-A1F9-E696283C56BF@uclouvain.be>

Dear James,
Ludo Rocher's  article has been reissued in
Studies in Hindu Law and Dharma??stra
by Ludo Rocher, edited by Donald R. Davis, Jr and with a Foreword by Richard W. Lariviere
Imprint: Anthem Press
Hardback
ISBN 9780857285508
September 2012

> Le 9 mars 2021 ? 09:36, James Hegarty via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit :
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> Would anyone be able to supply me with Ludo Rocher?s ?The 'Ambassador' in Ancient India? from the Indian Year Book of International Affairs (Madras) 1958?
> 
> With Thanks and Best Wishes,
> 
> James Hegarty
> Cardiff University
> UK
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 11:21:22 2021
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 16:51:22 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpKbgpY3gpLXgpL/gpLDgpYLgpKrgpLjgpJngpY3gpJfgpY3gpLDgpLkgb2Yg4KSt4KSw4KSk4KSu4KSy4KWN4KSy4KS/4KSV?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzW83ZK+PR9BOs8ShOYXTZVPxRJfFDqMJO-u_2inEhXGfA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
It is our pleasure to present the digitization of the following lexicon.
Dvir?pasa?graha of Bharatamallika

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/dvirupadhvanisangraha_bharatamallika/orig/dvirupadhvanisangraha.txt

Credits - in metadata section.

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From j.zapart at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 11:56:40 2021
From: j.zapart at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Jaros=C5=82aw_Zapart?=)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 11:56:40 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_The_dating_of_Sakal_sant_g=C4=81th=C4=81?=
Message-ID: <CAHeKyd=ys+Cma5qDhkooPOmbCx3876M4+7jFozjgvwLS2bRBZA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

I would be very grateful if somebody could direct me to a reliable source
that estimates the date of composition for the Marathi anthology *Sakal
sant g?th?, *or give an estimate herself/himself.

With kind regards,

Jaros?aw Zapart

------

Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilisations
Jagiellonian University
Krak?w


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From jwn3y at virginia.edu  Tue Mar  9 13:11:00 2021
From: jwn3y at virginia.edu (Nemec, John William (jwn3y))
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 13:11:00 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_.pdf_article_request_(item_by_H=C3=A9l=C3=A8ne_Brunner)?=
Message-ID: <MN2PR13MB295764F48A81FB5AED8DEEBA9C929@MN2PR13MB2957.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Might I be able to lean on one of you to send a .pdf/digital copy of the following article?  I have tried my university library and the other usual digital resources to no avail.

Brunner, H., ?Le s?dhaka, personnage oubli? du ?iva?sme du sud?,  Journal Asiatique, pp. 411-43 (1975).

Thank you.

Sincerely,
John

______________________________
John Nemec, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Indian Religions and South Asian Studies
Editor, Religion in Translation Series (Oxford University Press)
323 Gibson Hall / 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue
Department of Religious Studies
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22904
434-924-6716
nemec at virginia.edu
https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec


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From jwn3y at virginia.edu  Tue Mar  9 14:15:25 2021
From: jwn3y at virginia.edu (Nemec, John William (jwn3y))
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 14:15:25 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_.pdf_article_request_(item_by_H=C3=A9l=C3=A8ne_Brunner)?=
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR13MB295764F48A81FB5AED8DEEBA9C929@MN2PR13MB2957.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR13MB295793DABE154622C8D0F4A39C929@MN2PR13MB2957.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Let me thank Nina Mirnig for a copy of Brunner's article.  I am very grateful for Indology (and to Nina for the article)!

Sincerely,
John


________________________________
From: Nemec, John William (jwn3y) <jwn3y at virginia.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 9, 2021 8:11 AM
To: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: .pdf article request (item by H?l?ne Brunner)

Dear Colleagues,

Might I be able to lean on one of you to send a .pdf/digital copy of the following article?  I have tried my university library and the other usual digital resources to no avail.

Brunner, H., ?Le s?dhaka, personnage oubli? du ?iva?sme du sud?,  Journal Asiatique, pp. 411-43 (1975).

Thank you.

Sincerely,
John

______________________________
John Nemec, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Indian Religions and South Asian Studies
Editor, Religion in Translation Series (Oxford University Press)
323 Gibson Hall / 1540 Jefferson Park Avenue
Department of Religious Studies
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22904
434-924-6716
nemec at virginia.edu
https://virginia.academia.edu/JNemec


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 14:24:57 2021
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 19:54:57 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLXgpL7gpJngpY3gpK7gpK/gpL7gpLDgpY3gpKPgpLUgb2Yg4KSw4KS+4KSu4KS+4KS14KSk4KS+4KSw4KS24KSw4KWN4KSu4KSo4KWN?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzW_H5RpN-LcwGJjd-URx9Ntdun7EL4k7P9S5vLoti6NNw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear scholars,
It gives us immense pleasure to present before you the following lexicon in
digitized version.

V??may?r?ava of R?m?vat?ra?arman

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/vanmayarnava_ramavatarasharman/orig/vanmayarnava.txt

Credit -
This work is typed / proof read by Mr. Pradeep Kumar Rastogi.

-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Mar  9 14:40:46 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 06:40:46 -0800
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_The_dating_of_Sakal_sant_g=C4=81th=C4=81?=
In-Reply-To: <CAHeKyd=ys+Cma5qDhkooPOmbCx3876M4+7jFozjgvwLS2bRBZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzenBgOBpvBvyXi-5KTPa4bf6n87hiTWYZabiJ6b0Oa7Kw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Jaros?aw,

     As per the title page, the date of publication is 1955. Is there
something else you are looking for?

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:57 AM Jaros?aw Zapart <j.zapart at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I would be very grateful if somebody could direct me to a reliable source
> that estimates the date of composition for the Marathi anthology *Sakal
> sant g?th?, *or give an estimate herself/himself.
>
> With kind regards,
>
> Jaros?aw Zapart
>
> ------
>
> Centre for Comparative Studies of Civilisations
> Jagiellonian University
> Krak?w
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 14:45:02 2021
From: timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com (Tim Felix Aufderheide)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 15:45:02 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request
Message-ID: <f1df829b-96d8-8439-99c7-1299e3bbea53@gmail.com>

Dear list,

can anybody supply me with pdf's of the following articles?

(1)??? Palsule, G. B. 1977. "A Unique Case of a v-Glide in the TB 
(2.4.4.4)". In: Some Aspects of Indo-Iranian Literary and Cultural 
Traditions. Commemoration Volume of Dr. V. G. Paranjpe. pp. 118-121. Delhi.

 ?? (2)??? Norman, K. R. 1965/1966. "?". In: Journal of the Oriental 
Institute, Baroda 15. pp. ?-?.

And maybe pages 165-166 from Tiekens /H//?la?s //Sattasa?//...///(1983)?

Thanks a lot in advance

Tim
//



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From palaniappa at aol.com  Wed Mar 10 04:25:21 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 21 22:25:21 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_Location_of_P=C4=81=E1=B9=ADalika_of_Loka_Vibh=C4=81ga?=
In-Reply-To: <6a07eaf148c14285bf2452c1bce64408@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <7B8CE89B-D31A-42B8-96FA-9E2B2B87D2EC@aol.com>

Dear Herman,

 

In connection with Pu?an????u 151 Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai, the modern commentator, says that it was said that Vicci was said to be the name of a mountain, its surrounding region was Vicci N??u and its ruler was Viccikk?. Pi??ai essentially repeats the same information in relation to Pu?an????u 200. Internal evidence in the poems shows that Vicci?s domain was mountainous.? We also know that an ancestor of this lineage was a person named Na??a?. From other Classical Tamil works we know that one Na??a? ruled the E?il mountain area (called Ezhimala in Kannur district in Kerala), not far from southern Karnataka. Another Na??a? ruled in the Ce?kam area near Tiruva???malai. 

 

We get a reference to a mountain associated with the name Vicci in T?v?ram 7.77.3 (https://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/DM7_77.HTM#p3). While earlier Tamil commentators did not pay much attention to ?Paruvi? associated with the Vicci mountain, Digital T?v?ram does. Digital T?v?ram seems to link Vicci mountain to Paruvi Vi?aya discussed by Karnataka historians. According to Lewis Rice ?Paruvi? (in the Paruvi vi?aya ) is the same as modern ?Parigi? in the Anantapur district (EI 14, p. 331). According to C. R. Krishnamacharlu, modern V?lpuma?ugu in the same district was also in Paruvi-Vi?aya (EI 24, p. 238). With T?v?ram 7.77.3 describing the elephants of the Vicci mountain as taking bath in the river K?v?ri, the Vicci mountain has to be in the mountainous area in the K?v?ri valley in southern Karnataka. So, Paruvi mentioned by T?v?ram 7.77.3 cannot be the same as Paruvi in the Ananantapur district. Unfortunately, we have no idea which specific place in the K?v?ri valley was known as Paruvi near which the Vicci mountain was located.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Date: Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 2:06 PM
To: "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>, indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

 

Correction

 

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than the noise in Ku?ump?r ...

 

Mind you, it is a rough paraphrase.

 

Herman

 

Herman Tieken

Stationsweg 58

2515 BP Den Haag

The Netherlands

00 31 (0)70 2208127

website: hermantieken.com

Van: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 14:51:05
Aan: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga 

 

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

 

You ask for reactions. Mine is restricted to Ku?untokai 328 and Akan????u 155.

The latter poem does indeed mention P????u (or p????u), but as far as I can see the context does not provide any information about its position on the map of South India.

The case of Ku?untokai 328 is more complicated. It mentions a battle between the inhabitants of Ku?ump?r, the Vicciyar, and the v?ntar, or a king, or all the kings, of the great dynasties. I have not been able to locate the Vicciyar. However, a Vicikk?, or ?Vicci king? is mentioned in Pu?an????u 200,8 and a Vicci in Pati??uppattu, Patikam 9, 4 (p. 384).

 

The second part of Ku?. 328 reads:

 

??????????????????????? alar?

vilke?u t??ai vicciyar perumaka?

v?ntaro?u poruta ????aip p??ar

pulin?kku?a?nilai ka??a

kalike?u ku?ump?r ?rppi?um perit?.

 

Eva Wilden offers the following translation:

 

[The] gossip is louder than the roaring of bustling Ku?ump?r, which has seen [ka??a] the posture [nilai] of bards [p??ar], resembling [u?a?] tigers [puli] (exchanging) looks [n?kku], at a time when the great son of the Vicciyar with the bow-armed army fought with the kings [v???ar].

 

As Wilden admits in the notes to this translation she herself could not make sense of the text. The translation is the outcome of consultations with Gopal Iyer.

 

In her edition Wilden has collected the variant readings of all the manuscripts and editions available. Unfortunately, she does not do anything with this material. For pulin?kku?a?nilai (puli, ?tiger?, n?kku, ?look, gaze?, u?a?, ?resembling?, nilai, ?posture? (and many other meanings, from the verb nil- ?to stand, remain, stop?)) there are two interesting variants, puli-n?r-ku?a?-nilai and puli-n?r-ku?a?a?-nilai. ku?a?a? in the latter may well stand for ku?al?a?, ?dwarf?. The following is a rough paraphrase:

 

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than that in Ku?ump?r produced by the bards on the day of the battle between the Vicciyar with the great kings, which they (the bards) considered a case (nilai, but compare Skt ny?ya) of a dwarf taking on (n?r, see DED 3132) a tiger.

 

I admit that all this is not really an answer to your question.

 

Herman?? 

 

 

Herman Tieken

Stationsweg 58

2515 BP Den Haag

The Netherlands

00 31 (0)70 2208127

website: hermantieken.com

Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 04:30:54
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga 

 

According to Lewis Rice, Lokavibh?ga, a Jain Sanskrit work, possibly translated from Prakrit into Sanskrit, says it was copied in ?aka 380 (458 CE) in the 22nd year of Si?havarman, the lord of K??chi, by the Jain Muni Sarvanandin in the village named P??alika in the P??a-r???ra. According to Rice (EI, vol.14, p. 334), "P??alika, the village in which Sarvanandin made his copy, may be P??al?pura, in the South Arcot District. The Periya-pur??am makes it the seat of a large Jaina monastery in the 7th century. P??ar??h?ra is no doubt the territory of the B??a kings." 

 

The village called P??alika has been usually associated with Tirupp??irippuliy?r, a suburb of Cuddalore on the Tamil Nadu coast. Tamil P?tiri is the same as P??ali in Sanskrit. But we have another village called today as P??ir?ppuliy?r (near Mailam) approximately 60 km to the northwest. P?tirai in Tamil is a variant of P?tiri. Thus the present form P?tir?ppuliy?r could represent an ancient form P?tiraippuliy?r. This means P??alika could be P?tir?ppuliy?r too.  Which one was it really?  

 

Now we know that the ca. 6th century Va??e?uttu inscription (Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, pp. 471 and 629), which mentions the name of a Jain teacher from P???tu, is at Pa?aiya?pa??u near Aval?rp???tai and about 68 km to the northwest of P?tir?ppuliy?r. Ku?untokai 328 mentions a village called Ku?ump?r which was probably close to the territory of the P??ar, where a battle was being fought.  I think the village of Ku?ump?r approximately 68 km north of P?tir?ppuliy?r and 13 km north of Vandavasi is probably the one mentioned in the poem. The attached Figure 1 shows the locations of P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r.

 

The attached picture shows the locations of Jain temples near the north central Tamil Nadu. Looking at the density of Jain sites, it is clear P?tir?ppuliy?r is right in the middle of them. But the Tirupp??irippuliy?r (Cuddalore) area hardly has any Jain sites. Certainly, what the Google map gives is the current picture. But the distribution of early Tamil inscriptions (2nd century BC- 6th century CE and most of them Jain) shows a similar concentration in this area as shown by Early Tamil Epigraphy Map 1 on p.34. 

 

Based on this, I propose that the location of P??alika from where Lokavibh?ga was copied is present day P?tir?ppuliy?r and that P????u mentioned in Akam 155 and the Pa?aiya?pa??u inscription and the P??a-r???ra mentioned in Lokavibh?ga should be located in the general area where P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r are located. 

 

While the area was known as P????u or P??a-r???ra from the time of Akam 155 to the 6th century, the P??ar rulers might have moved further north extending from northern Tamil Nadu into Telugu and Kannada regions by the 6th century. 

 

I welcome comments. 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Regards,

Palaniappan  



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From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl  Wed Mar 10 12:53:56 2021
From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 21 12:53:56 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Location_of_P=C4=81=E1=B9=ADalika_of_Loka_Vibh=C4=81ga?=
In-Reply-To: <7B8CE89B-D31A-42B8-96FA-9E2B2B87D2EC@aol.com>
Message-ID: <62f037a531e14552b4018eeb7990dd62@hum.leidenuniv.nl>

Dear Sudalai,

Have you considered that vicciya in T?v?ram 7. 77. 3 is the spoken form of vittiya, the participle of vittutal, "sowing", and is no mountain name at all? paruvi could be a verbal participle of the verb paru(vu).

Herman



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <palaniappa at aol.com>
Verzonden: woensdag 10 maart 2021 05:25:21
Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology
Onderwerp: Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

Dear Herman,

In connection with Pu?an????u 151 Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai, the modern commentator, says that it was said that Vicci was said to be the name of a mountain, its surrounding region was Vicci N??u and its ruler was Viccikk?. Pi??ai essentially repeats the same information in relation to Pu?an????u 200. Internal evidence in the poems shows that Vicci?s domain was mountainous.  We also know that an ancestor of this lineage was a person named Na??a?. From other Classical Tamil works we know that one Na??a? ruled the E?il mountain area (called Ezhimala in Kannur district in Kerala), not far from southern Karnataka. Another Na??a? ruled in the Ce?kam area near Tiruva???malai.

We get a reference to a mountain associated with the name Vicci in T?v?ram 7.77.3 (https://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/DM7_77.HTM#p3). While earlier Tamil commentators did not pay much attention to ?Paruvi? associated with the Vicci mountain, Digital T?v?ram does. Digital T?v?ram seems to link Vicci mountain to Paruvi Vi?aya discussed by Karnataka historians. According to Lewis Rice ?Paruvi? (in the Paruvi vi?aya ) is the same as modern ?Parigi? in the Anantapur district (EI 14, p. 331). According to C. R. Krishnamacharlu, modern V?lpuma?ugu in the same district was also in Paruvi-Vi?aya (EI 24, p. 238). With T?v?ram 7.77.3 describing the elephants of the Vicci mountain as taking bath in the river K?v?ri, the Vicci mountain has to be in the mountainous area in the K?v?ri valley in southern Karnataka. So, Paruvi mentioned by T?v?ram 7.77.3 cannot be the same as Paruvi in the Ananantapur district. Unfortunately, we have no idea which specific place in the K?v?ri valley was known as Paruvi near which the Vicci mountain was located.

Regards,
Palaniappan

From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Date: Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 2:06 PM
To: "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>, indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga


Correction



The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than the noise in Ku?ump?r ...



Mind you, it is a rough paraphrase.



Herman


Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 14:51:05
Aan: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

You ask for reactions. Mine is restricted to Ku?untokai 328 and Akan????u 155.
The latter poem does indeed mention P????u (or p????u), but as far as I can see the context does not provide any information about its position on the map of South India.
The case of Ku?untokai 328 is more complicated. It mentions a battle between the inhabitants of Ku?ump?r, the Vicciyar, and the v?ntar, or a king, or all the kings, of the great dynasties. I have not been able to locate the Vicciyar. However, a Vicikk?, or ?Vicci king? is mentioned in Pu?an????u 200,8 and a Vicci in Pati??uppattu, Patikam 9, 4 (p. 384).

The second part of Ku?. 328 reads:

                        alar?
vilke?u t??ai vicciyar perumaka?
v?ntaro?u poruta ????aip p??ar
pulin?kku?a?nilai ka??a
kalike?u ku?ump?r ?rppi?um perit?.

Eva Wilden offers the following translation:

[The] gossip is louder than the roaring of bustling Ku?ump?r, which has seen [ka??a] the posture [nilai] of bards [p??ar], resembling [u?a?] tigers [puli] (exchanging) looks [n?kku], at a time when the great son of the Vicciyar with the bow-armed army fought with the kings [v???ar].

As Wilden admits in the notes to this translation she herself could not make sense of the text. The translation is the outcome of consultations with Gopal Iyer.

In her edition Wilden has collected the variant readings of all the manuscripts and editions available. Unfortunately, she does not do anything with this material. For pulin?kku?a?nilai (puli, ?tiger?, n?kku, ?look, gaze?, u?a?, ?resembling?, nilai, ?posture? (and many other meanings, from the verb nil- ?to stand, remain, stop?)) there are two interesting variants, puli-n?r-ku?a?-nilai and puli-n?r-ku?a?a?-nilai. ku?a?a? in the latter may well stand for ku?al?a?, ?dwarf?. The following is a rough paraphrase:

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than that in Ku?ump?r produced by the bards on the day of the battle between the Vicciyar with the great kings, which they (the bards) considered a case (nilai, but compare Skt ny?ya) of a dwarf taking on (n?r, see DED 3132) a tiger.

I admit that all this is not really an answer to your question.

Herman



Herman Tieken
Stationsweg 58
2515 BP Den Haag
The Netherlands
00 31 (0)70 2208127
website: hermantieken.com<http://hermantieken.com/>
________________________________
Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 04:30:54
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

According to Lewis Rice, Lokavibh?ga, a Jain Sanskrit work, possibly translated from Prakrit into Sanskrit, says it was copied in ?aka 380 (458 CE) in the 22nd year of Si?havarman, the lord of K??chi, by the Jain Muni Sarvanandin in the village named P??alika in the P??a-r???ra. According to Rice (EI, vol.14, p. 334), "P??alika, the village in which Sarvanandin made his copy, may be P??al?pura, in the South Arcot District. The Periya-pur??am makes it the seat of a large Jaina monastery in the 7th century. P??ar??h?ra is no doubt the territory of the B??a kings."

The village called P??alika has been usually associated with Tirupp??irippuliy?r, a suburb of Cuddalore on the Tamil Nadu coast. Tamil P?tiri is the same as P??ali in Sanskrit. But we have another village called today as P??ir?ppuliy?r (near Mailam) approximately 60 km to the northwest. P?tirai in Tamil is a variant of P?tiri. Thus the present form P?tir?ppuliy?r could represent an ancient form P?tiraippuliy?r. This means P??alika could be P?tir?ppuliy?r too.  Which one was it really?

Now we know that the ca. 6th century Va??e?uttu inscription (Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, pp. 471 and 629), which mentions the name of a Jain teacher from P???tu, is at Pa?aiya?pa??u near Aval?rp???tai and about 68 km to the northwest of P?tir?ppuliy?r. Ku?untokai 328 mentions a village called Ku?ump?r which was probably close to the territory of the P??ar, where a battle was being fought.  I think the village of Ku?ump?r approximately 68 km north of P?tir?ppuliy?r and 13 km north of Vandavasi is probably the one mentioned in the poem. The attached Figure 1 shows the locations of P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r.

The attached picture shows the locations of Jain temples near the north central Tamil Nadu. Looking at the density of Jain sites, it is clear P?tir?ppuliy?r is right in the middle of them. But the Tirupp??irippuliy?r (Cuddalore) area hardly has any Jain sites. Certainly, what the Google map gives is the current picture. But the distribution of early Tamil inscriptions (2nd century BC- 6th century CE and most of them Jain) shows a similar concentration in this area as shown by Early Tamil Epigraphy Map 1 on p.34.

Based on this, I propose that the location of P??alika from where Lokavibh?ga was copied is present day P?tir?ppuliy?r and that P????u mentioned in Akam 155 and the Pa?aiya?pa??u inscription and the P??a-r???ra mentioned in Lokavibh?ga should be located in the general area where P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r are located.

While the area was known as P????u or P??a-r???ra from the time of Akam 155 to the 6th century, the P??ar rulers might have moved further north extending from northern Tamil Nadu into Telugu and Kannada regions by the 6th century.

I welcome comments.

Thanks in advance

Regards,
Palaniappan


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From timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 19:57:48 2021
From: timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com (Tim Felix Aufderheide)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 21 20:57:48 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: pdf request
In-Reply-To: <f1df829b-96d8-8439-99c7-1299e3bbea53@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15030449-c0f6-f888-82ea-26987fdb4c46@gmail.com>

Dear list,

thanks a lot to anybody who sent me the pdf's I searched for off-list!

Only Palsule's contribution to the Paranjpe Commemoration Volume is 
still missing.

Best

Tim


Am 09.03.2021 um 15:45 schrieb Tim Felix Aufderheide:
>
> Dear list,
>
> can anybody supply me with pdf's of the following articles?
>
> (1)??? Palsule, G. B. 1977. "A Unique Case of a v-Glide in the TB 
> (2.4.4.4)". In: Some Aspects of Indo-Iranian Literary and Cultural 
> Traditions. Commemoration Volume of Dr. V. G. Paranjpe. pp. 118-121. 
> Delhi.
>
> ?? (2)??? Norman, K. R. 1965/1966. "?". In: Journal of the Oriental 
> Institute, Baroda 15. pp. ?-?.
>
> And maybe pages 165-166 from Tiekens /H//?la?s //Sattasa?//...///(1983)?
>
> Thanks a lot in advance
>
> Tim
> //
>


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From rhododaktylos at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 18:20:24 2021
From: rhododaktylos at gmail.com (Antonia Ruppel)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 21 19:20:24 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit outside universities
Message-ID: <CAEjEOsAWhF_HBEAWpw8vxSsFyqJ=136CB8M4ktOEG1kgDqwHjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Sanskrit instruction (and instruction in the humanities in general) is
being cut at many universities, while at the same time 'real-world'
interest in these topics is on the rise. Hence I thought it might be useful
to get an overview of the existing 'alt-ac' institutions out there.

So far I am aware of
-- the School of Indian Wisdom (https://courses.rajbalkaran.com)
-- the Sanskrit Library (https://www.sanskritlibrary.org/courses.html)
-- Yogic Studies (https://www.yogicstudies.com/courses)

(Full disclosure: I teach the Introductory Sanskrit courses offered by
Yogic Studies, and will be involved in the higher-level Sanskrit literature
courses.)

I would be grateful for replies to this post
-- by anyone who can add to the above list of course offerings (i. e.:
courses at a properly scholarly level, taught by academics, but not limited
to students enrolled at one specific college or university)
-- by anyone at a college/university without a full Indology/Asian Studies
department, interested in expanding the educational offerings available to
their students by working together with such an alt-ac institution (the
Yogic Studies three-term Introductory Sanskrit sequence, for example, is
basically the same as the two-semester introduction I used to teach at
Cornell; and Yogic Studies is beginning to build up co-operations with
colleges/universities)

I will happily send a summary of such offerings/institutions to the List.

Thank you, and all the best,
     Antonia


-- 
Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
Author | The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit
Lehrkraft f?r besondere Aufgaben | Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
LMU M?nchen
Researcher 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax' | Department of Linguistics,
Philology and Phonetics
Junior Research Fellow | Kellogg College
University of Oxford


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 04:08:35 2021
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 21 22:08:35 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Sanskrit outside universities
In-Reply-To: <CAEjEOsAWhF_HBEAWpw8vxSsFyqJ=136CB8M4ktOEG1kgDqwHjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO15_dTrZvAWqdiBTpCGyZHa4paC1_NyG_pHxiQp1eocN+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Antonia, and dear colleagues,

I'm encouraged by the interest that these programs represent, and aware of
the fact that even universities that offer Sanskrit require students to be
enrolled in (often very expensive) degree programs to take courses. The "?
la carte" model has a lot to recommend it. I myself would be a little
worried, in principle, about the business model and ideology of some
"alt-ac" programs --- not, of course, the ones you listed, which have real
scholarly credentials behind them --- but I suppose some people could worry
about the business model and ideology of university instruction, too.

Still, I would hope that people still go first to their local university
(or the nearest university that teaches Sanskrit), because they won't know
what's available unless they ask. Our Sanskrit classes at the University of
Chicago, for example, are open to students from a dozen or so other
universities in the midwest US (at least during the pandemic!), and some
university programs put their instructional materials online for free.
Faculty might also offer advice about language study.

Andrew

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 12:21 PM Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> Sanskrit instruction (and instruction in the humanities in general) is
> being cut at many universities, while at the same time 'real-world'
> interest in these topics is on the rise. Hence I thought it might be useful
> to get an overview of the existing 'alt-ac' institutions out there.
>
> So far I am aware of
> -- the School of Indian Wisdom (https://courses.rajbalkaran.com)
> -- the Sanskrit Library (https://www.sanskritlibrary.org/courses.html)
> -- Yogic Studies (https://www.yogicstudies.com/courses)
>
> (Full disclosure: I teach the Introductory Sanskrit courses offered by
> Yogic Studies, and will be involved in the higher-level Sanskrit literature
> courses.)
>
> I would be grateful for replies to this post
> -- by anyone who can add to the above list of course offerings (i. e.:
> courses at a properly scholarly level, taught by academics, but not limited
> to students enrolled at one specific college or university)
> -- by anyone at a college/university without a full Indology/Asian Studies
> department, interested in expanding the educational offerings available to
> their students by working together with such an alt-ac institution (the
> Yogic Studies three-term Introductory Sanskrit sequence, for example, is
> basically the same as the two-semester introduction I used to teach at
> Cornell; and Yogic Studies is beginning to build up co-operations with
> colleges/universities)
>
> I will happily send a summary of such offerings/institutions to the List.
>
> Thank you, and all the best,
>      Antonia
>
>
> --
> Dr Antonia Ruppel FRAS
> Author | The Cambridge Introduction to Sanskrit
> Lehrkraft f?r besondere Aufgaben | Institut f?r Indologie und Tibetologie
> LMU M?nchen
> Researcher 'Uncovering Sanskrit Syntax' | Department of Linguistics,
> Philology and Phonetics
> Junior Research Fellow | Kellogg College
> University of Oxford
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Fri Mar 12 04:51:34 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 21 22:51:34 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_Location_of_P=C4=81=E1=B9=ADalika_of_Loka_Vibh=C4=81ga?=
In-Reply-To: <62f037a531e14552b4018eeb7990dd62@hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Message-ID: <07314BD9-599B-461C-A705-C1C09DAA795A@aol.com>

Dear Herman,

 

Thank you.

 

Yes, if the variant vicciya is considered, then there is no specific mountain named vicci mentioned here. Although Tamil Lexicon does not mention it, paruvi is a synonym for cotton as U. V?. S?minataiyar (UVS) explains in his commentary for Ku?untokai 72 and he cites T?v?ram 7.77.3 although he only cites the form vicci. 
UVS explains how cotton is also planted in millet fields on mountain slopes. Interestingly, UVS had cited T?v?ram 7.77.3 in his notes on Pu?an????u 151 (in 1935 edition) where he explains vicci as a mountain! ?Since the first edition of Ku?untokai was published in 1937, he probably had changed his view on what vicci meant in T?v?ram 7.77.3.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Date: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 at 6:54 AM
To: "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>, indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

 

Dear Sudalai,

Have you considered that vicciya in T?v?ram 7. 77. 3 is the spoken form of vittiya, the participle of vittutal, "sowing", and is no mountain name at all? paruvi could be a verbal participle of the verb paru(vu).

Herman

 

 

Herman Tieken

Stationsweg 58

2515 BP Den Haag

The Netherlands

00 31 (0)70 2208127

website: hermantieken.com

Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <palaniappa at aol.com>
Verzonden: woensdag 10 maart 2021 05:25:21
Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.; indology
Onderwerp: Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga 

 

Dear Herman,

 

In connection with Pu?an????u 151 Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai, the modern commentator, says that it was said that Vicci was said to be the name of a mountain, its surrounding region was Vicci N??u and its ruler was Viccikk?. Pi??ai essentially repeats the same information in relation to Pu?an????u 200. Internal evidence in the poems shows that Vicci?s domain was mountainous.  We also know that an ancestor of this lineage was a person named Na??a?. From other Classical Tamil works we know that one Na??a? ruled the E?il mountain area (called Ezhimala in Kannur district in Kerala), not far from southern Karnataka. Another Na??a? ruled in the Ce?kam area near Tiruva???malai. 

 

We get a reference to a mountain associated with the name Vicci in T?v?ram 7.77.3 (https://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/site/digital_tevaram/U_TEV/DM7_77.HTM#p3). While earlier Tamil commentators did not pay much attention to ?Paruvi? associated with the Vicci mountain, Digital T?v?ram does. Digital T?v?ram seems to link Vicci mountain to Paruvi Vi?aya discussed by Karnataka historians. According to Lewis Rice ?Paruvi? (in the Paruvi vi?aya ) is the same as modern ?Parigi? in the Anantapur district (EI 14, p. 331). According to C. R. Krishnamacharlu, modern V?lpuma?ugu in the same district was also in Paruvi-Vi?aya (EI 24, p. 238). With T?v?ram 7.77.3 describing the elephants of the Vicci mountain as taking bath in the river K?v?ri, the Vicci mountain has to be in the mountainous area in the K?v?ri valley in southern Karnataka. So, Paruvi mentioned by T?v?ram 7.77.3 cannot be the same as Paruvi in the Ananantapur district. Unfortunately, we have no idea which specific place in the K?v?ri valley was known as Paruvi near which the Vicci mountain was located.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

From: "Tieken, H.J.H." <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Date: Thursday, March 4, 2021 at 2:06 PM
To: "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>, indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga

 

Correction

 

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than the noise in Ku?ump?r ...

 

Mind you, it is a rough paraphrase.

 

Herman

 

Herman Tieken

Stationsweg 58

2515 BP Den Haag

The Netherlands

00 31 (0)70 2208127

website: hermantieken.com

Van: Tieken, H.J.H. <H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 14:51:05
Aan: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Re: Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga 

 

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

 

You ask for reactions. Mine is restricted to Ku?untokai 328 and Akan????u 155.

The latter poem does indeed mention P????u (or p????u), but as far as I can see the context does not provide any information about its position on the map of South India.

The case of Ku?untokai 328 is more complicated. It mentions a battle between the inhabitants of Ku?ump?r, the Vicciyar, and the v?ntar, or a king, or all the kings, of the great dynasties. I have not been able to locate the Vicciyar. However, a Vicikk?, or ?Vicci king? is mentioned in Pu?an????u 200,8 and a Vicci in Pati??uppattu, Patikam 9, 4 (p. 384).

 

The second part of Ku?. 328 reads:

 

                        alar?

vilke?u t??ai vicciyar perumaka?

v?ntaro?u poruta ????aip p??ar

pulin?kku?a?nilai ka??a

kalike?u ku?ump?r ?rppi?um perit?.

 

Eva Wilden offers the following translation:

 

[The] gossip is louder than the roaring of bustling Ku?ump?r, which has seen [ka??a] the posture [nilai] of bards [p??ar], resembling [u?a?] tigers [puli] (exchanging) looks [n?kku], at a time when the great son of the Vicciyar with the bow-armed army fought with the kings [v???ar].

 

As Wilden admits in the notes to this translation she herself could not make sense of the text. The translation is the outcome of consultations with Gopal Iyer.

 

In her edition Wilden has collected the variant readings of all the manuscripts and editions available. Unfortunately, she does not do anything with this material. For pulin?kku?a?nilai (puli, ?tiger?, n?kku, ?look, gaze?, u?a?, ?resembling?, nilai, ?posture? (and many other meanings, from the verb nil- ?to stand, remain, stop?)) there are two interesting variants, puli-n?r-ku?a?-nilai and puli-n?r-ku?a?a?-nilai. ku?a?a? in the latter may well stand for ku?al?a?, ?dwarf?. The following is a rough paraphrase:

 

The gossip (about our love affair) is louder than that in Ku?ump?r produced by the bards on the day of the battle between the Vicciyar with the great kings, which they (the bards) considered a case (nilai, but compare Skt ny?ya) of a dwarf taking on (n?r, see DED 3132) a tiger.

 

I admit that all this is not really an answer to your question.

 

Herman   

 

 

Herman Tieken

Stationsweg 58

2515 BP Den Haag

The Netherlands

00 31 (0)70 2208127

website: hermantieken.com

Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Verzonden: donderdag 4 maart 2021 04:30:54
Aan: indology at list.indology.info
Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Location of P??alika of Loka Vibh?ga 

 

According to Lewis Rice, Lokavibh?ga, a Jain Sanskrit work, possibly translated from Prakrit into Sanskrit, says it was copied in ?aka 380 (458 CE) in the 22nd year of Si?havarman, the lord of K??chi, by the Jain Muni Sarvanandin in the village named P??alika in the P??a-r???ra. According to Rice (EI, vol.14, p. 334), "P??alika, the village in which Sarvanandin made his copy, may be P??al?pura, in the South Arcot District. The Periya-pur??am makes it the seat of a large Jaina monastery in the 7th century. P??ar??h?ra is no doubt the territory of the B??a kings." 

 

The village called P??alika has been usually associated with Tirupp??irippuliy?r, a suburb of Cuddalore on the Tamil Nadu coast. Tamil P?tiri is the same as P??ali in Sanskrit. But we have another village called today as P??ir?ppuliy?r (near Mailam) approximately 60 km to the northwest. P?tirai in Tamil is a variant of P?tiri. Thus the present form P?tir?ppuliy?r could represent an ancient form P?tiraippuliy?r. This means P??alika could be P?tir?ppuliy?r too.  Which one was it really?  

 

Now we know that the ca. 6th century Va??e?uttu inscription (Early Tamil Epigraphy, 2003, pp. 471 and 629), which mentions the name of a Jain teacher from P???tu, is at Pa?aiya?pa??u near Aval?rp???tai and about 68 km to the northwest of P?tir?ppuliy?r. Ku?untokai 328 mentions a village called Ku?ump?r which was probably close to the territory of the P??ar, where a battle was being fought.  I think the village of Ku?ump?r approximately 68 km north of P?tir?ppuliy?r and 13 km north of Vandavasi is probably the one mentioned in the poem. The attached Figure 1 shows the locations of P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r.

 

The attached picture shows the locations of Jain temples near the north central Tamil Nadu. Looking at the density of Jain sites, it is clear P?tir?ppuliy?r is right in the middle of them. But the Tirupp??irippuliy?r (Cuddalore) area hardly has any Jain sites. Certainly, what the Google map gives is the current picture. But the distribution of early Tamil inscriptions (2nd century BC- 6th century CE and most of them Jain) shows a similar concentration in this area as shown by Early Tamil Epigraphy Map 1 on p.34. 

 

Based on this, I propose that the location of P??alika from where Lokavibh?ga was copied is present day P?tir?ppuliy?r and that P????u mentioned in Akam 155 and the Pa?aiya?pa??u inscription and the P??a-r???ra mentioned in Lokavibh?ga should be located in the general area where P?tir?ppuliy?r, Pa?aiya?pa??u, and Ku?ump?r are located. 

 

While the area was known as P????u or P??a-r???ra from the time of Akam 155 to the 6th century, the P??ar rulers might have moved further north extending from northern Tamil Nadu into Telugu and Kannada regions by the 6th century. 

 

I welcome comments. 

 

Thanks in advance

 

Regards,

Palaniappan  



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From c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com  Sat Mar 13 13:41:35 2021
From: c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com (Malcolm Keating)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 21 08:41:35 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_PDF_request:_van_Buitenen:_R=C4=81m=C4=81nuja_on_the_Bhagavadg=C4=ABt=C4=81_(page_2)?=
Message-ID: <CAF2ecWttdXcvH0zxWCDGGhWUTHHZS3mtz-XV2AqAOQS8jb-REg@mail.gmail.com>

My scan of this book is missing page 2 of the introduction. If someone is
able to send me the missing page I'd be grateful.

Best,
Malcolm

Malcolm Keating
Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) |
malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg
Book Review Editor | *Philosophy East & West*

Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/


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From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu  Sat Mar 13 16:58:23 2021
From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 21 16:58:23 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_"Pa=C3=B1car.4,8,37"_in_B=C3=B6htlingk_and_Roth?=
Message-ID: <6165E394-21A9-46F1-B567-1C50A98AB3E0@oneonta.edu>

Dear all,

Would anyone know what ?Pa?car. 4,8,37? in B?htlingk and Roth?s dictionary refers to? It?s cited under bh?gola:

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/csl-apidev/servepdf.php?dict=PWG&page=5-0334

The abbreviation ?Pa?car? is not found in the dictionary?s list of abbreviations. The Cologne people provide this note:

PA?CAR = PA?CARATNA ? [Cologne Addition]

Monier-Williams, under bh?gola, cites ?Pa?car,? which is explained as ?Pa?car?tra? in the list of abbreviations. I assume therefore that Pa?car?tra is correct and Pa?caratna is wrong. Under the entry p??car?tra, MW has ?N. of sev. works,? which doesn?t help much. P??car?tra is a large body of literature.

The fifth volume of B?htlingk and Roth, which has the entry bh?gola, came out in 1868. As such, I assume that we?re dealing with a work for which a Western edition was published prior to 1868. Since three numbers are needed for the reference in B?htlingk and Roth, I further assume that we?re dealing with a larger work.

I have looked in the NCC under Pa?car? and P?ncar? for a work with a printed edition published before 1868, but without luck.

Any help in identifying the text in the reference will be greatly appreciated.

Have a good weekend.

All best wishes,
Toke




From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sat Mar 13 17:21:29 2021
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 21 18:21:29 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_"Pa=C3=B1car.4,8,37"_in_B=C3=B6htlingk_and_Roth?=
In-Reply-To: <6165E394-21A9-46F1-B567-1C50A98AB3E0@oneonta.edu>
Message-ID: <20210313182129.Horde.3rg-VQNxYhNrfnCR3oSN2R6@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Please see:

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/csldev/csldoc/build/dictionaries/prefaces/pwpref/pwpref05.html

Thus, the reference is:

Pa?car?tra 4.8.38, in: The N?rada Pancha R?tra. In the original  
Sanscrit edited by K. M. Banerjea. Calcutta 1865 (Bibliotheca Indica),  
p. 281.

Best wishes,

Roland Steiner




From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de  Sat Mar 13 17:27:10 2021
From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 21 18:27:10 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_"Pa=C3=B1car.4,8,37"_in_B=C3=B6htlingk_and_Roth?=
In-Reply-To: <20210313182129.Horde.3rg-VQNxYhNrfnCR3oSN2R6@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <20210313182710.Horde.xF2ObnU-q0Q2xhFGgUT1GfQ@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>

Sorry, it should of course be "37" instead of "38" (see the attached page):


Please see:

https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/csldev/csldoc/build/dictionaries/prefaces/pwpref/pwpref05.html

Thus, the reference is:

Pa?car?tra 4.8.37, in: The N?rada Pancha R?tra. In the original  
Sanscrit edited by K. M. Banerjea. Calcutta 1865 (Bibliotheca Indica),  
p. 281.

Best wishes,

Roland Steiner
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From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu  Sat Mar 13 17:27:52 2021
From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 21 17:27:52 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_"Pa=C3=B1car.4,8,37"_in_B=C3=B6htlingk_and_Roth?=
In-Reply-To: <20210313182129.Horde.3rg-VQNxYhNrfnCR3oSN2R6@home.staff.uni-marburg.de>
Message-ID: <2E8DF7EF-97DF-42F0-B02B-A75F383FA225@oneonta.edu>

Thank you so much for the help, Roland.

Best wishes,
Toke



> On Mar 13, 2021, at 12:21, Roland Steiner <steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de> wrote:
> 
> Please see:
> 
> https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/csldev/csldoc/build/dictionaries/prefaces/pwpref/pwpref05.html
> 
> Thus, the reference is:
> 
> Pa?car?tra 4.8.38, in: The N?rada Pancha R?tra. In the original Sanscrit edited by K. M. Banerjea. Calcutta 1865 (Bibliotheca Indica), p. 281.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Roland Steiner
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




From c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com  Sat Mar 13 17:52:29 2021
From: c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com (Malcolm Keating)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 21 12:52:29 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_PDF_request:_van_Buitenen:_R=C4=81m=C4=81nuja_on_the_Bhagavadg=C4=ABt=C4=81_(page_2)?=
In-Reply-To: <311F648B-17C4-459C-B469-91FA266CE97A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D24ACA8-ED9C-436D-82DF-3311E238B9BE@gmail.com>

Thanks for the quick replies! I have the PDF now. 

Sent from my phone; pardon brevity and typos.

> On Mar 13, 2021, at 12:49 PM, Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?Hi Malcolm,
> 
> Here?s the requested page.
> 
> best,
> Dan
> 
> <van Buitinen p2.pdf>
> 
>> On Mar 13, 2021, at 8:41 AM, Malcolm Keating <c.malcolm.keating at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> My scan of this book is missing page 2 of the introduction. If someone is able to send me the missing page I'd be grateful.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Malcolm
>> 
>> Malcolm Keating
>> Yale-NUS College | Assistant Professor | Humanities Division (Philosophy) | malcolm.keating at yale-nus.edu.sg
>> Book Review Editor | Philosophy East & West
>> 
>> Academic website: http://www.malcolmkeating.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Mar 15 14:06:07 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 21 07:06:07 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfLj2y33JkqqC7ywPr-ycyRfgUTs8dOxYWmtzmtCqvcjQ@mail.gmail.com>

P??ini' rule "?????????? ?????:" [??????] prescribes the lengthening of "i"
in forms like ?????, ???????? etc.  Is there a historical explanation of
this lengthening?

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Mon Mar 15 14:39:49 2021
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 21 09:39:49 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfLj2y33JkqqC7ywPr-ycyRfgUTs8dOxYWmtzmtCqvcjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO14uMao1d3oFvU1vJ9wWh+eJiROj_rXOQ=+YuZaWgngj-Q@mail.gmail.com>

See Jamison, Stephanie. 1988. ?The quantity of the outcome of vocalized
laryngeals in Indic?. In A. Bammesberger, ed., *Die Laryngaltheorie und die
Rekonstruktion des indogermanischen Laut- und Formensystems,* 213?226.
Heidelberg: Carl Winter. Jamison argued that *?* is the regular development
of an interconsonantal laryngeal in a final syllable, while *i* is the
regular development elsewhere. If I'm not mistaken (I don't have a copy of
the paper now) she argued that the length of *?* in the weak stem of 9th
class verbs was in order to distinguish the (synchronic) stem-final vowel
from the (synchronic) "linking-vowel" *i*. That might account for its
appearance in non-present forms of 9th class verbs (although once again I
don't remember her argument).

In Middle Indic the outcome *i* seems to be more general (Prakrit *gahia-* for
Sanskrit* gr?h?ta*- etc.), though I remember vaguely that early scholars
took this to be a secondary (accentual) development from the Sanskrit
forms. In principle they could represent the "regular" outcome of the PIE
laryngeals.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 9:07 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> P??ini' rule "?????????? ?????:" [??????] prescribes the lengthening of
> "i" in forms like ?????, ???????? etc.  Is there a historical explanation
> of this lengthening?
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From dcgunkel at gmail.com  Mon Mar 15 16:53:41 2021
From: dcgunkel at gmail.com (Dieter Gunkel)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 21 17:53:41 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO14uMao1d3oFvU1vJ9wWh+eJiROj_rXOQ=+YuZaWgngj-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADVOX36e-rKY=3JAOdaE7XtJBfT4EdE8bS_8zdjStTWFDqURMA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Madhav,

I second what Andrew says. I also recommend Karl Praust's 2004 paper
(reference below) on the development of the class IX presents. According to
Praust, the realization of /CnHC/ as [Cn?HC] in class IX presents was
avoided already in Proto-Indo-European in favor of [Cn?HC], with an
epenthetic vowel, in order that -n- be non-syllabic throughout the
inflectional paradigm, i.e. like the strong forms, which have the sequence
/CneHC/. In other words, there was analogical pressure to keep the *n* a
consonant, and the epenthetic vowel made that possible. The further
development to -n?- in Indic would then be the result of regular sound
change.

Praust cites the previous literature. Since then, there have been some
further discussions: Lipp 2009:392?4 n. 97; Yoshida 2013; K?mmel 2016; and
Gunkel 2018.

In my paper, I talk a bit about the development of the ? in class III
presents of the type m?m?te. The metrical evidence from the Rigveda
suggests that we should restore some forms with a short i, esp. *mimih?
(for transmitted mim?h?). jahima? 'we leave' is attested in the
Atharvaveda. Those show us the regular phonological development to short i
(in accordance with Jamison's foundational study). The long vowels there
are analogical, and I think it's attractive to have them be analogical to
the class IX presents. If we follow Praust, then the chronology works
nicely: the long ? in class IX would be in place early enough for that
analogy to take place.

Best,

Dieter

Gunkel, Dieter. 2018. Localization evidence for the restoration of Rigvedic
*mimihi 'measure'. In Vina Diem Celebrent: Studies in Linguistics and
Philology in Honor of Brent Vine, ed. Gunkel et al., 76?92. Ann Arbor:
Beech Stave.

K?mmel, Martin Joachim. 2016. ?Zur ?Vokalisierung? der Laryngale im
Indoiranischen.? In Sahasram Ati Srajas: Indo-Iranian and Indo-European
Studies in Honor of Stephanie W. Jamison ed. Gunkel et al., 216?26. Ann
Arbor: Beech Stave.

Lipp, Reiner. 2009. Die indogermanischen und einzelsprachlichen Palatale im
Indoiranischen. Vol. 2, Thorn-Problem, indoiranische Laryngalvokalisation.
Heidelberg: Winter.

Praust, Karl. 2004. ?Zur historischen Beurteilung von griech. ?????, der
altindischen 9. Pr?sensklasse und zur Frage grundsprachlicher
?ni-Pr?sentien?.? In Artes et Scientiae: Festschrift f?r Ralf-Peter Ritter
zum 65. Geburtstag, ed. Peter Anreiter, Marialuise Haslinger, Heinz Dieter
Pohl, and Helmut Winberger, 369?90. Vienna: Praesens.

Yoshida, Kazuhiko. 2013. ?The weak affix -n?- in Sanskrit ninth class
presents.? M?nchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft 67:65?77.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 3:40 PM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
wrote:

> See Jamison, Stephanie. 1988. ?The quantity of the outcome of vocalized
> laryngeals in Indic?. In A. Bammesberger, ed., *Die Laryngaltheorie und
> die Rekonstruktion des indogermanischen Laut- und Formensystems,* 213?226.
> Heidelberg: Carl Winter. Jamison argued that *?* is the regular
> development of an interconsonantal laryngeal in a final syllable, while
> *i* is the regular development elsewhere. If I'm not mistaken (I don't
> have a copy of the paper now) she argued that the length of *?* in the
> weak stem of 9th class verbs was in order to distinguish the (synchronic)
> stem-final vowel from the (synchronic) "linking-vowel" *i*. That might
> account for its appearance in non-present forms of 9th class verbs
> (although once again I don't remember her argument).
>
> In Middle Indic the outcome *i* seems to be more general (Prakrit *gahia-* for
> Sanskrit* gr?h?ta*- etc.), though I remember vaguely that early scholars
> took this to be a secondary (accentual) development from the Sanskrit
> forms. In principle they could represent the "regular" outcome of the PIE
> laryngeals.
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 9:07 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> P??ini' rule "?????????? ?????:" [??????] prescribes the lengthening of
>> "i" in forms like ?????, ???????? etc.  Is there a historical explanation
>> of this lengthening?
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Mar 15 17:10:45 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 21 10:10:45 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CADVOX36e-rKY=3JAOdaE7XtJBfT4EdE8bS_8zdjStTWFDqURMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfPpJeVS0PZ74QPmFFv+_fpMzwJLoaz85dnCT0YALyj5w@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Andrew and Dieter, for these references.  Will try to get hold of
them. If you have any of them in the pdf form, please send them to me. With
best wishes,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 9:54 AM Dieter Gunkel <dcgunkel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Madhav,
>
> I second what Andrew says. I also recommend Karl Praust's 2004 paper
> (reference below) on the development of the class IX presents. According to
> Praust, the realization of /CnHC/ as [Cn?HC] in class IX presents was
> avoided already in Proto-Indo-European in favor of [Cn?HC], with an
> epenthetic vowel, in order that -n- be non-syllabic throughout the
> inflectional paradigm, i.e. like the strong forms, which have the sequence
> /CneHC/. In other words, there was analogical pressure to keep the *n* a
> consonant, and the epenthetic vowel made that possible. The further
> development to -n?- in Indic would then be the result of regular sound
> change.
>
> Praust cites the previous literature. Since then, there have been some
> further discussions: Lipp 2009:392?4 n. 97; Yoshida 2013; K?mmel 2016; and
> Gunkel 2018.
>
> In my paper, I talk a bit about the development of the ? in class III
> presents of the type m?m?te. The metrical evidence from the Rigveda
> suggests that we should restore some forms with a short i, esp. *mimih?
> (for transmitted mim?h?). jahima? 'we leave' is attested in the
> Atharvaveda. Those show us the regular phonological development to short i
> (in accordance with Jamison's foundational study). The long vowels there
> are analogical, and I think it's attractive to have them be analogical to
> the class IX presents. If we follow Praust, then the chronology works
> nicely: the long ? in class IX would be in place early enough for that
> analogy to take place.
>
> Best,
>
> Dieter
>
> Gunkel, Dieter. 2018. Localization evidence for the restoration of
> Rigvedic *mimihi 'measure'. In Vina Diem Celebrent: Studies in Linguistics
> and Philology in Honor of Brent Vine, ed. Gunkel et al., 76?92. Ann Arbor:
> Beech Stave.
>
> K?mmel, Martin Joachim. 2016. ?Zur ?Vokalisierung? der Laryngale im
> Indoiranischen.? In Sahasram Ati Srajas: Indo-Iranian and Indo-European
> Studies in Honor of Stephanie W. Jamison ed. Gunkel et al., 216?26. Ann
> Arbor: Beech Stave.
>
> Lipp, Reiner. 2009. Die indogermanischen und einzelsprachlichen Palatale
> im Indoiranischen. Vol. 2, Thorn-Problem, indoiranische
> Laryngalvokalisation. Heidelberg: Winter.
>
> Praust, Karl. 2004. ?Zur historischen Beurteilung von griech. ?????, der
> altindischen 9. Pr?sensklasse und zur Frage grundsprachlicher
> ?ni-Pr?sentien?.? In Artes et Scientiae: Festschrift f?r Ralf-Peter Ritter
> zum 65. Geburtstag, ed. Peter Anreiter, Marialuise Haslinger, Heinz Dieter
> Pohl, and Helmut Winberger, 369?90. Vienna: Praesens.
>
> Yoshida, Kazuhiko. 2013. ?The weak affix -n?- in Sanskrit ninth class
> presents.? M?nchener Studien zur Sprachwissenschaft 67:65?77.
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 3:40 PM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> See Jamison, Stephanie. 1988. ?The quantity of the outcome of vocalized
>> laryngeals in Indic?. In A. Bammesberger, ed., *Die Laryngaltheorie und
>> die Rekonstruktion des indogermanischen Laut- und Formensystems,* 213?226.
>> Heidelberg: Carl Winter. Jamison argued that *?* is the regular
>> development of an interconsonantal laryngeal in a final syllable, while
>> *i* is the regular development elsewhere. If I'm not mistaken (I don't
>> have a copy of the paper now) she argued that the length of *?* in the
>> weak stem of 9th class verbs was in order to distinguish the (synchronic)
>> stem-final vowel from the (synchronic) "linking-vowel" *i*. That might
>> account for its appearance in non-present forms of 9th class verbs
>> (although once again I don't remember her argument).
>>
>> In Middle Indic the outcome *i* seems to be more general (Prakrit
>> *gahia-* for Sanskrit* gr?h?ta*- etc.), though I remember vaguely that
>> early scholars took this to be a secondary (accentual) development from the
>> Sanskrit forms. In principle they could represent the "regular" outcome of
>> the PIE laryngeals.
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 9:07 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> P??ini' rule "?????????? ?????:" [??????] prescribes the lengthening of
>>> "i" in forms like ?????, ???????? etc.  Is there a historical explanation
>>> of this lengthening?
>>>
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>>> India
>>>
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Tue Mar 16 14:09:39 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 21 08:09:39 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <1db23fd0ca444bd7cd19d51041c8c0ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf4t7zECvb_Ad0dM9LsmzLqcreHyi5zFDt_dsGqjvfNrQ@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>


Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
<https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>





SIGN THE PETITION HERE
<https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>



By signing this petition
<https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
 you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library at
120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.

After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL)
located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate
office cubicles. Read the proposal: here
<https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/call_for_public_comment_for_south_southeast_asia_library.pdf>
.

Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL
<https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/ssea-library> has served as a
window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross
cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition
to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL
serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated
exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and
fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the
South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international
levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a *physical
space* for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.

Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus
languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship
on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations
comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the
S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage
of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who
identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the *only* space on
campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions'
cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is
calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the
two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL
is taken for office cubicles, we lose our *only* place to experience the
region as well as the heart of our collegiality.

The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the* only* library
of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes
the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
<https://sseas.berkeley.edu/> at UC Berkeley (the *only* one of its kind in
the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute for
South Asia Studies <https://southasia.berkeley.edu/> and the Center for
Southeast Asia Studies <https://ieas.berkeley.edu/centers/cseas>, who
receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of
regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its
mission and most importantly *physical space*.

This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an assault
not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of our
student body who call this place ?home.?

By signing this petition
<https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
 you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library at
120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.


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From kauzeya at gmail.com  Tue Mar 16 14:39:24 2021
From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 21 15:39:24 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-Cf4t7zECvb_Ad0dM9LsmzLqcreHyi5zFDt_dsGqjvfNrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMGmO4Kd2ST=XmkPcL0jBK0RS=ioX81YGLHfF7avmw99NqVCfg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for sharing this.

The same thing happened in Leiden with the forced integration of the Kern
Institute library into the main library. Among the losses, most important
was the loss of a physical place within which scholars of South Asia could
meet. In addition, the library now puts all new publications directly into
the closed stacks, in order to "save space". The library is now more like
dead storage than a living place, despite the creation of an "Asian
Library" which is, however, not freely open to visitors, does not allow
good access to the book collections, etc. It's one good way to erode a
field as a dynamic entity, and depressing that the verbiage of the UC
Berkeley library document shared on the website is nearly identical to that
used in Leiden.

Jonathan Silk

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
> Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
> To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>
>
>
> Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>
>
>
>
>
> SIGN THE PETITION HERE
> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>
>
>
> By signing this petition
> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library at
> 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>
> After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL)
> located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate
> office cubicles. Read the proposal: here
> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/call_for_public_comment_for_south_southeast_asia_library.pdf>
> .
>
> Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL
> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/ssea-library> has served as a
> window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross
> cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition
> to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL
> serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated
> exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and
> fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the
> South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international
> levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a *physical
> space* for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.
>
> Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus
> languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship
> on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations
> comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the
> S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage
> of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who
> identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the *only* space on
> campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions'
> cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is
> calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the
> two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL
> is taken for office cubicles, we lose our *only* place to experience the
> region as well as the heart of our collegiality.
>
> The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the* only* library
> of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes
> the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
> <https://sseas.berkeley.edu/> at UC Berkeley (the *only* one of its kind
> in the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute
> for South Asia Studies <https://southasia.berkeley.edu/> and the Center
> for Southeast Asia Studies <https://ieas.berkeley.edu/centers/cseas>, who
> receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of
> regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its
> mission and most importantly *physical space*.
>
> This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an assault
> not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of our
> student body who call this place ?home.?
>
> By signing this petition
> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library at
> 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)



-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Mar 16 15:39:01 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 21 08:39:01 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4Kd2ST=XmkPcL0jBK0RS=ioX81YGLHfF7avmw99NqVCfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dze=XLS-M2e9XJqBHmT2V4Oah+YnvEfv7Y66Ppqw2zndSg@mail.gmail.com>

Sad news.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 7:40 AM Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for sharing this.
>
> The same thing happened in Leiden with the forced integration of the Kern
> Institute library into the main library. Among the losses, most important
> was the loss of a physical place within which scholars of South Asia could
> meet. In addition, the library now puts all new publications directly into
> the closed stacks, in order to "save space". The library is now more like
> dead storage than a living place, despite the creation of an "Asian
> Library" which is, however, not freely open to visitors, does not allow
> good access to the book collections, etc. It's one good way to erode a
> field as a dynamic entity, and depressing that the verbiage of the UC
> Berkeley library document shared on the website is nearly identical to that
> used in Leiden.
>
> Jonathan Silk
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
>> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
>> Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>> To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>
>>
>>
>> Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> SIGN THE PETITION HERE
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>
>>
>>
>> By signing this petition
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>
>> After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL)
>> located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate
>> office cubicles. Read the proposal: here
>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/call_for_public_comment_for_south_southeast_asia_library.pdf>
>> .
>>
>> Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL
>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/ssea-library> has served as a
>> window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross
>> cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition
>> to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL
>> serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated
>> exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and
>> fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the
>> South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international
>> levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a *physical
>> space* for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.
>>
>> Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus
>> languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship
>> on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations
>> comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the
>> S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage
>> of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who
>> identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the *only* space on
>> campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions'
>> cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is
>> calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the
>> two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL
>> is taken for office cubicles, we lose our *only* place to experience the
>> region as well as the heart of our collegiality.
>>
>> The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the* only* library
>> of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes
>> the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
>> <https://sseas.berkeley.edu/> at UC Berkeley (the *only* one of its kind
>> in the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute
>> for South Asia Studies <https://southasia.berkeley.edu/> and the Center
>> for Southeast Asia Studies <https://ieas.berkeley.edu/centers/cseas>,
>> who receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of
>> regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its
>> mission and most importantly *physical space*.
>>
>> This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an
>> assault not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of
>> our student body who call this place ?home.?
>>
>> By signing this petition
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From jemhouben at gmail.com  Tue Mar 16 17:03:08 2021
From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 21 18:03:08 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <CAMGmO4Kd2ST=XmkPcL0jBK0RS=ioX81YGLHfF7avmw99NqVCfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGCGLoAUFchXBVgdfy5T3NFHSScZzFr=rk5HDAhj+ZoRk3m=dQ@mail.gmail.com>

As the examples in Utrecht (ca. 30 years ago) and Leiden (ca. 15 years ago)
tend to show, it is indeed of utmost importance not to fall into the trap
of such verbiage and continue fighting against attacks on the direct
accessibility to research space and tools in our field...
I do not know details about the main librarians at UC Berkeley but would
not be surprised if they have never read any of the books they are
'managing' (the then general director of the Utrecht library admitted he
only read comics, and not even good ones...)...
Jan Houben

On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 15:40, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for sharing this.
>
> The same thing happened in Leiden with the forced integration of the Kern
> Institute library into the main library. Among the losses, most important
> was the loss of a physical place within which scholars of South Asia could
> meet. In addition, the library now puts all new publications directly into
> the closed stacks, in order to "save space". The library is now more like
> dead storage than a living place, despite the creation of an "Asian
> Library" which is, however, not freely open to visitors, does not allow
> good access to the book collections, etc. It's one good way to erode a
> field as a dynamic entity, and depressing that the verbiage of the UC
> Berkeley library document shared on the website is nearly identical to that
> used in Leiden.
>
> Jonathan Silk
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
>> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
>> Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>> To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>
>>
>>
>> Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> SIGN THE PETITION HERE
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>
>>
>>
>> By signing this petition
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>
>> After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL)
>> located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate
>> office cubicles. Read the proposal: here
>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/call_for_public_comment_for_south_southeast_asia_library.pdf>
>> .
>>
>> Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL
>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/ssea-library> has served as a
>> window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross
>> cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition
>> to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL
>> serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated
>> exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and
>> fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the
>> South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international
>> levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a *physical
>> space* for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.
>>
>> Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus
>> languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship
>> on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations
>> comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the
>> S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage
>> of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who
>> identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the *only* space on
>> campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions'
>> cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is
>> calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the
>> two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL
>> is taken for office cubicles, we lose our *only* place to experience the
>> region as well as the heart of our collegiality.
>>
>> The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the* only* library
>> of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes
>> the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
>> <https://sseas.berkeley.edu/> at UC Berkeley (the *only* one of its kind
>> in the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute
>> for South Asia Studies <https://southasia.berkeley.edu/> and the Center
>> for Southeast Asia Studies <https://ieas.berkeley.edu/centers/cseas>,
>> who receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of
>> regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its
>> mission and most importantly *physical space*.
>>
>> This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an
>> assault not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of
>> our student body who call this place ?home.?
>>
>> By signing this petition
>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
> 2311 BZ Leiden
> The Netherlands
>
> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)



-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

*https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>

LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction,
transmission

et transformations d'un savoir scientifique


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Tue Mar 16 20:43:04 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 21 15:43:04 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Searching the Indology List Archive
In-Reply-To: <382F53C0-E3C1-4184-9AA3-2B9D4BA2D14F.ref@aol.com>
Message-ID: <382F53C0-E3C1-4184-9AA3-2B9D4BA2D14F@aol.com>

The earlier Indology archive and its browse and search functions worked very well. The new Indology archive and its search function have created a terrible problem where none existed. It is hard to search and hone in on specific posts to cite them. The Indology archive was a very valuable knowledge database. But, it is terrible to use right now. Is it just me or do other members have run into problems too? If yes, can we go back to the earlier system a la the Coca Cola experience?

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan



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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Tue Mar 16 22:05:33 2021
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 21 18:05:33 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Searching the Indology List Archive
In-Reply-To: <382F53C0-E3C1-4184-9AA3-2B9D4BA2D14F@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o_Am4iFsJ-37gh=WyYGLQ57UDv2DbfOcdurUcUJguBF4g@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

Like you I find the Indology list archives invaluable and I ran into
problems.
There was a bug in the browse by month feature (it only displayed the first
25 entries correctly  ) but that seems to be fixed now, so I'm OK with the
new archives browse feature now that I'm used to it.

I prefer the new archives "search" function.  I found with the original
archives "search" function, the same post was displayed multiple times. But
I would have liked something like the google groups search function, where
you can filter searchs by poster, date, contents or if it has an attachment.
Harry Spier

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 4:43 PM Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> The earlier Indology archive and its browse and search functions worked
> very well. The new Indology archive and its search function have created a
> terrible problem where none existed. It is hard to search and hone in on
> specific posts to cite them. The Indology archive was a very valuable
> knowledge database. But, it is terrible to use right now. Is it just me or
> do other members have run into problems too? If yes, can we go back to the
> earlier system a la the Coca Cola experience?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Palaniappan
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 04:25:24 2021
From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 21 09:55:24 +0530
Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLjgpYHgpLbgpYDgpLLgpKjgpL7gpK7gpK7gpL7gpLLgpL4gb2Yg4KS14KS/4KSc4KSv4KS44KWB4KS24KWA4KSy4KS44KWC4KSw4KS/?=
Message-ID: <CADSGPzU89Xu6fGXbOEOuCueyLGCYrxich5txi0DNnXmgAZTE2g@mail.gmail.com>

Respected scholars,
It is my pleasure to present before you the digitized version of the
following work.

Su??lan?mam?l? of Vijayasu??las?ri.

https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/sushilanamamala_vijayasushilasuri/orig/sushilanamamala.txt

Credits - in metadata section.

Please feel free to give your feedback / send corrections at
https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/issues .

Thank you,
-- 
Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S
Collector and District Magistrate, Surat
www.sanskritworld.in


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From palaniappa at aol.com  Thu Mar 18 00:24:38 2021
From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 21 19:24:38 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Searching the Indology List Archive
In-Reply-To: <CAJ3b0o_Am4iFsJ-37gh=WyYGLQ57UDv2DbfOcdurUcUJguBF4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0CC29E16-2342-4F00-B40C-CEECF045BD8C@aol.com>

Dear Harry,

 

Thank you.

 

Just compare the browse feature for the months of January 2021 and October 2012.

 

The October 2012 results shows individual posts, which you can cite.

https://list.indology.info/empathy/list/indology.list.indology.info?sort_by=date_desc&month=2012-10

 

The January 2021 results show threads which include posts in February or later too.

https://list.indology.info/empathy/list/indology.list.indology.info?sort_by=date_desc&month=2021-1

 

The search function works only on single words and Boolean search is not possible.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

 

 

From: Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 5:05 PM
To: "palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>
Cc: indology <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Searching the Indology List Archive

 

Dear Sudalaimuthu,

 

Like you I find the Indology list archives invaluable and I ran into problems.

There was a bug in the browse by month feature (it only displayed the first 25 entries correctly  ) but that seems to be fixed now, so I'm OK with the new archives browse feature now that I'm used to it.  

 

I prefer the new archives "search" function.  I found with the original archives "search" function, the same post was displayed multiple times. But I would have liked something like the google groups search function, where you can filter searchs by poster, date, contents or if it has an attachment.

Harry Spier

 

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 4:43 PM Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

The earlier Indology archive and its browse and search functions worked very well. The new Indology archive and its search function have created a terrible problem where none existed. It is hard to search and hone in on specific posts to cite them. The Indology archive was a very valuable knowledge database. But, it is terrible to use right now. Is it just me or do other members have run into problems too? If yes, can we go back to the earlier system a la the Coca Cola experience?

 

Thank you.

 

Regards,

Palaniappan

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 00:42:47 2021
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 21 20:42:47 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Searching the Indology List Archive
In-Reply-To: <0CC29E16-2342-4F00-B40C-CEECF045BD8C@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o8LQ1uyw2ACtW8=KhFL22JdJZhgPT-1+58BrcLw0zKRhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Palaniappan,
It looks like you've identified another bug with the browse function.  As
far as I can see, it only shows threads when you browse by month for a date
Feb. 2013 or later.
Harry Spier


On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 8:24 PM Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan <palaniappa at aol.com>
wrote:

> Dear Harry,
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Just compare the browse feature for the months of January 2021 and October
> 2012.
>
>
>
> The October 2012 results shows individual posts, which you can cite.
>
>
> https://list.indology.info/empathy/list/indology.list.indology.info?sort_by=date_desc&month=2012-10
>
>
>
> The January 2021 results show threads which include posts in February or
> later too.
>
>
> https://list.indology.info/empathy/list/indology.list.indology.info?sort_by=date_desc&month=2021-1
>
>
>
> The search function works only on single words and Boolean search is not
> possible.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Palaniappan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 5:05 PM
> *To: *"palaniappa at aol.com" <palaniappa at aol.com>
> *Cc: *indology <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] Searching the Indology List Archive
>
>
>
> Dear Sudalaimuthu,
>
>
>
> Like you I find the Indology list archives invaluable and I ran into
> problems.
>
> There was a bug in the browse by month feature (it only displayed the
> first 25 entries correctly  ) but that seems to be fixed now, so I'm OK
> with the new archives browse feature now that I'm used to it.
>
>
>
> I prefer the new archives "search" function.  I found with the original
> archives "search" function, the same post was displayed multiple times. But
> I would have liked something like the google groups search function, where
> you can filter searchs by poster, date, contents or if it has an attachment.
>
> Harry Spier
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 4:43 PM Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> The earlier Indology archive and its browse and search functions worked
> very well. The new Indology archive and its search function have created a
> terrible problem where none existed. It is hard to search and hone in on
> specific posts to cite them. The Indology archive was a very valuable
> knowledge database. But, it is terrible to use right now. Is it just me or
> do other members have run into problems too? If yes, can we go back to the
> earlier system a la the Coca Cola experience?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Palaniappan
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>


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From jacob at fabularasa.dk  Fri Mar 19 14:33:23 2021
From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 21 15:33:23 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Orissa Historical Research Journal
Message-ID: <cf152a5bd29d861740ed9434bc7c590e@fabularasa.dk>

Dear colleagues,

I am looking for the following article:

K. Krishna Murthy: "Dice Play and its Archaeological Corroboration at 
Nagarjunakonda" in Orissa Historical Research Journal no. 10, 1961, pp. 
1-4.

Archive.org does not have the issue I am looking for, and while the 
Odisha State Archives have an image of the front page 
(http://odishaarchives.nic.in/node/165946) there are no download 
options.

If anybody on the list has a scan of the article or issue I am looking 
for, or know which portal to access the journal from (the Royal Library 
of Copenhagen does not), I would be most grateful.

Best regards,
Jacob


Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen
Denmark




From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Fri Mar 19 14:45:35 2021
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 21 14:45:35 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Conference Programme
In-Reply-To: <b1c6acbb9ff1a4ff2ebb1be607c926ce@cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <E4FF9A61-8AA6-4075-80B4-FE634D869413@austin.utexas.edu>

I was asked to post this online conference from Cambridge University on the topic of Decolonising Archives, Rethinking Canons Writing Intellectual Histories of Global Entanglements. The link below will take you to the conference website, Thought some of you may be interested in this. Best,


Patrick



Begin forwarded message:

From: Shuvatri Dasgupta <sd781 at cam.ac.uk<mailto:sd781 at cam.ac.uk>>
Subject: [UTEXAS: SUSPECTED SPAM] Conference Programme and Zoom Trial


Dear all,

I am very happy to share the conference website with the programme and registration details on there. If you can share it with your circles, and in your institutional mailing lists, I would be very grateful.

https://sites.google.com/view/darcworkshop/home?authuser=0
https://sites.google.com/view/darcworkshop/schedule?authuser=0



Warmly,
Shuvatri.
--
Shuvatri Dasgupta
University of Cambridge

https://www.hist.cam.ac.uk/people/shuvatri-dasgupta




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From francois.voegeli at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 17:07:32 2021
From: francois.voegeli at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Voegeli?=)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 21 18:07:32 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Orissa Historical Research Journal
In-Reply-To: <cf152a5bd29d861740ed9434bc7c590e@fabularasa.dk>
Message-ID: <6bc12769-3943-5bdc-8d0d-41708582034f@gmail.com>

I would be interested too. Thanks in advance.

On 19.03.21 15:33, jacob at fabularasa.dk wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am looking for the following article:
>
> K. Krishna Murthy: "Dice Play and its Archaeological Corroboration at 
> Nagarjunakonda" in Orissa Historical Research Journal no. 10, 1961, 
> pp. 1-4.
>
> Archive.org does not have the issue I am looking for, and while the 
> Odisha State Archives have an image of the front page 
> (http://odishaarchives.nic.in/node/165946) there are no download options.
>
> If anybody on the list has a scan of the article or issue I am looking 
> for, or know which portal to access the journal from (the Royal 
> Library of Copenhagen does not), I would be most grateful.
>
> Best regards,
> Jacob
>
>
> Jacob Schmidt-Madsen
> Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology
> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
> University of Copenhagen
> Denmark
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options 
> or unsubscribe)



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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Fri Mar 19 17:50:36 2021
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 21 17:50:36 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Some assistance
Message-ID: <5AABF08C-5DB5-4F2E-8DA9-D881764FD0CF@austin.utexas.edu>

I feel somewhat stupid, but I have a citation in a book I am editing and I had traced it to ??ik??grantha 31.7?. But for the life of my I cannot trace this book in my computer!! Would anyone have some idea about it? The two verses cited from it are:

??? ?????????? ?
????: ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?
?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?
???????????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ?
??????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ??? ? 

Thanks for your help.

Patrick




From emstern1948 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 18:42:32 2021
From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 21 14:42:32 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Some assistance
In-Reply-To: <5AABF08C-5DB5-4F2E-8DA9-D881764FD0CF@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <B85B3B4A-BF76-424C-8511-A75BBF51C936@gmail.com>

These seem to be verses 41-42 of a P??in?ya?ik??.


> On Mar 19, 2021, at 1:50 PM, Olivelle, J P <jpo at austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
> 
> I feel somewhat stupid, but I have a citation in a book I am editing and I had traced it to ??ik??grantha 31.7?. But for the life of my I cannot trace this book in my computer!! Would anyone have some idea about it? The two verses cited from it are:
> 
> ??? ?????????? ?
> ????: ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?
> ?????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?
> ???????????? ??????????????? ?????????????? ?
> ??????? ????????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ??? ? 
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> 
> Patrick
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

Elliot M. Stern
552 South 48th Street
Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029
emstern1948 at gmail.com
267-240-8418





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From pf8 at soas.ac.uk  Sat Mar 20 12:39:59 2021
From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 21 12:39:59 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Launch of the Jaina-Prosopography Database & 22nd Annual Jaina Studies Workshop at SOAS, Saturday 27 March 1 pm GMT
Message-ID: <CAF+JJrkz70tTgOZduKu=YtXqwUtMSzed+xbGLUzTz3aH6oefpw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

On Saturday 27 March 1-6 pm GMT, the Launch of the Jaina-Prosopography
Database, and the 22nd Annual Jaina Studies Workshop will be held at SOAS.

Everyone interested is invited to join the online event.

Information on the programme and Zoom login details you can find here:

https://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies/events/27mar2021-22nd-jaina-studies-workshop-non--violence-in-jaina-philosophy-literature-and-art.html

with best wishes

Peter


Prof. Dr. Peter Fl?gel
Chair, Centre of Jaina Studies
Professor of the Study of Religions and Philosophies
Department of History, Religions and Philosophies
School of Oriental and African Studies
University of London
Thornhaugh Street
Russell Square
London WC1H OXG

Tel.: (+44-20) 7898 4776
E-mail: pf8 at soas.ac.uk
http://www.soas.ac.uk/jainastudies


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Mar 21 13:02:02 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 06:02:02 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzesUQ71ODvcvvf=R_g6fqq0mBHvcLgw6a4hv=8etZz-0w@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's ?The Creation and Spread of Scripts
in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient Everyday Life,  pp.
43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI: 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)? I don't have
access to this publication and would like to read it. Please share with me,
if you have it. Thanks.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Sun Mar 21 13:40:43 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 06:40:43 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzesUQ71ODvcvvf=R_g6fqq0mBHvcLgw6a4hv=8etZz-0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzc6fPW5OKOu9HhOx=T=SWau4-evvmW5OhJUNbxpM3qORw@mail.gmail.com>

I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's ?The Creation and Spread of
> Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient Everyday
> Life,  pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI: 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)? I
> don't have access to this publication and would like to read it. Please
> share with me, if you have it. Thanks.
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>


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From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be  Sun Mar 21 15:32:06 2021
From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 16:32:06 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzc6fPW5OKOu9HhOx=T=SWau4-evvmW5OhJUNbxpM3qORw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fa846ac23a6885a33fe055c0bef2f40@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>

Dear members of the list,

I am also interested by this article, is it possible to send me a copy ?

Thanks,

Jean Michel Delire,
Lecturer on Science and Civilisation of India - Sanskrit Texts, IHEB 
(University of Brussels)


Le 21.03.2021 14:40, Madhav Deshpande a ?crit?:
> I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,
> 
> Madhav
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> 
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
> India
> 
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> 
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> wrote:
> 
>> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's??The Creation and Spread
>> of Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient
>> Everyday Life,? pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI:
>> 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)? I don't have access to this publication
>> and would like to read it. Please share with me, if you have it.
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Madhav
>> 
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> 
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies,
>> Bangalore, India
>> 
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)




From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be  Sun Mar 21 16:41:34 2021
From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 17:41:34 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <5fa846ac23a6885a33fe055c0bef2f40@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>
Message-ID: <ae8ea63fa7989163945e181a86fa91f7@imapproxy.vub.ac.be>

Thanks, Madhav and J?rgen

Jean Michel


Le 21.03.2021 16:32, jmdelire a ?crit?:
> Dear members of the list,
> 
> I am also interested by this article, is it possible to send me a copy 
> ?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jean Michel Delire,
> Lecturer on Science and Civilisation of India - Sanskrit Texts, IHEB
> (University of Brussels)
> 
> 
> Le 21.03.2021 14:40, Madhav Deshpande a ?crit?:
>> I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,
>> 
>> Madhav
>> 
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> 
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>> 
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's??The Creation and Spread
>>> of Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient
>>> Everyday Life,? pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI:
>>> 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)? I don't have access to this publication
>>> and would like to read it. Please share with me, if you have it.
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Madhav
>>> 
>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>> 
>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies,
>>> Bangalore, India
>>> 
>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>> or unsubscribe)
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing 
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or unsubscribe)




From arash.zeini at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 17:40:52 2021
From: arash.zeini at gmail.com (Arash Zeini)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 17:40:52 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzc6fPW5OKOu9HhOx=T=SWau4-evvmW5OhJUNbxpM3qORw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH6hc21SyAwpHq0aSXukV_Mf9x=bpr=a_sC279gp634n6HRmGw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, may I ask for a copy of the article too?

Thanks in advance,
Arash

On Sun, 21 Mar 2021, 13:41 Madhav Deshpande, <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

> I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,
>
> Madhav
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's ?The Creation and Spread of
>> Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient Everyday
>> Life,  pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI: 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)?
>> I don't have access to this publication and would like to read it. Please
>> share with me, if you have it. Thanks.
>>
>> Madhav
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From ondracka at ff.cuni.cz  Sun Mar 21 17:46:05 2021
From: ondracka at ff.cuni.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Lubom=C3=ADr_Ondra=C4=8Dka?=)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 18:46:05 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAH6hc21SyAwpHq0aSXukV_Mf9x=bpr=a_sC279gp634n6HRmGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210321184605.e40fffc3a7384ad0a38abe16@ff.cuni.cz>

https://www.academia.edu/37342561/_2018_The_Creation_and_Spread_of_Scripts_in_Ancient_India


On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 17:40:52 +0000
Arash Zeini <arash.zeini at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello, may I ask for a copy of the article too?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Arash
> 
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2021, 13:41 Madhav Deshpande, <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> > I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,
> >
> > Madhav
> >
> > Madhav M. Deshpande
> > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
> >
> > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's ?The Creation and Spread of
> >> Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient Everyday
> >> Life,  pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI: 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)?
> >> I don't have access to this publication and would like to read it. Please
> >> share with me, if you have it. Thanks.
> >>
> >> Madhav
> >>
> >> Madhav M. Deshpande
> >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
> >> India
> >>
> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> > committee)
> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> > unsubscribe)




From beitel at email.gwu.edu  Sun Mar 21 18:21:42 2021
From: beitel at email.gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 13:21:42 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzc6fPW5OKOu9HhOx=T=SWau4-evvmW5OhJUNbxpM3qORw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43C277E4-2539-465B-9C5B-2BE83B9AD01E@email.gwu.edu>

Hello Madhav,

I?d like to ask you to send me a copy of the Falk article. Iit looks too good to miss.

Thanks,
Alf

Sent from my iPada

> On Mar 21, 2021, at 8:40 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> 
> I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,
> 
> Madhav
> 
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
> 
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
>> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's ?The Creation and Spread of Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient Everyday Life,  pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI: 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)?  I don't have access to this publication and would like to read it. Please share with me, if you have it. Thanks.
>> 
>> Madhav
>> 
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>> 
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it  Sun Mar 21 18:21:59 2021
From: bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it (Bruno Lo Turco)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 19:21:59 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] pdf request: Chemparathy, "Two Early Buddhist Refutations"
Message-ID: <CAJSwq-05+PoRap-psodOWNceoqkYLsScedDXtsedv+=ewm5AXw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,
I'd be really grateful for a pdf of
Chemparathy, George: ?Two Early Buddhist Refutations of the Existence of
??vara as the Creator of the Universe,? *Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde
S?d- und Ostasiens* 12?13 (1968?1968) 85?100.
Many thanks,
Bruno Lo Turco

-- 
Bruno Lo Turco
Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
Sapienza Universit? di Roma
Circonv. Tiburtina 4
00185 Roma, Italy

tel. + 39 06 88378046
bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it
http://brunoloturco.site.uniroma1.it/
http://www.lettere.uniroma1.it/user/459


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From bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it  Sun Mar 21 20:18:00 2021
From: bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it (Bruno Loturco)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 21:18:00 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: pdf request: Chemparathy, "Two Early Buddhist Refutations"
In-Reply-To: <CAJSwq-05+PoRap-psodOWNceoqkYLsScedDXtsedv+=ewm5AXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFUNk5jaAfB99xJms254+cfAqJud=iWKVpSOOi+Yf2cZE9czAw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the quick replies.
Problem solved at the speed of light!

Il giorno dom 21 mar 2021 alle ore 19:22 Bruno Lo Turco via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> ha scritto:

> Dear Colleagues,
> I'd be really grateful for a pdf of
> Chemparathy, George: ?Two Early Buddhist Refutations of the Existence of
> ??vara as the Creator of the Universe,? *Wiener Zeitschrift f?r die Kunde
> S?d- und Ostasiens* 12?13 (1968?1968) 85?100.
> Many thanks,
> Bruno Lo Turco
>
> --
> Bruno Lo Turco
> Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
> Sapienza Universit? di Roma
> Circonv. Tiburtina 4
> 00185 Roma, Italy
>
> tel. + 39 06 88378046
> bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it
> http://brunoloturco.site.uniroma1.it/
> http://www.lettere.uniroma1.it/user/459
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)



-- 
Bruno Lo Turco
Istituto Italiano di Studi Orientali
Sapienza Universit? di Roma
Circonv. Tiburtina 4
00185 Roma, Italy

tel. + 39 06 88378046 <+39%2006%208837%208046>
bruno.loturco at uniroma1.it
http://brunoloturco.site.uniroma1.it/
http://www.lettere.uniroma1.it/user/459

-- 
________________________________________________________
Le informazioni 
contenute in questo messaggio di posta elettronica sono strettamente 
riservate e indirizzate esclusivamente al destinatario. Si prega di non 
leggere, fare copia, inoltrare a terzi o conservare tale messaggio se non 
si ? il legittimo destinatario dello stesso. Qualora tale messaggio sia 
stato ricevuto per errore, si prega di restituirlo al mittente e di 
cancellarlo permanentemente dal proprio computer.
The information contained 
in this e mail message is strictly confidential and intended for the use of 
the addressee only.? If you are not the intended recipient, please do not 
read, copy, forward or store it on your computer. If you have received the 
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From arash.zeini at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 20:49:35 2021
From: arash.zeini at gmail.com (Arash Zeini)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 21 20:49:35 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question
In-Reply-To: <20210321184605.e40fffc3a7384ad0a38abe16@ff.cuni.cz>
Message-ID: <CAH6hc23OaKZGHAWC-RDJ7k_coLdbH9ZHzp7aC=9Pr7UBzxP39g@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you very much to those who have sent me a copy of the article.

Best wishes,
Arash

On Sun, 21 Mar 2021, 17:46 Lubom?r Ondra?ka, <ondracka at ff.cuni.cz> wrote:

>
> https://www.academia.edu/37342561/_2018_The_Creation_and_Spread_of_Scripts_in_Ancient_India
>
>
> On Sun, 21 Mar 2021 17:40:52 +0000
> Arash Zeini <arash.zeini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello, may I ask for a copy of the article too?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Arash
> >
> > On Sun, 21 Mar 2021, 13:41 Madhav Deshpande, <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > I wish to thank everyone who sent this article to me offline. Best,
> > >
> > > Madhav
> > >
> > > Madhav M. Deshpande
> > > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> > > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> > > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
> India
> > >
> > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:02 AM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Does anyone have a pdf of Harry Falk's ?The Creation and Spread of
> > >> Scripts in Ancient India.? (ed.) Kolb A., Literacy in Ancient Everyday
> > >> Life,  pp. 43?66. De Gruyter: Berlin. DOI:
> 10.1515/9783110594065-004.)?
> > >> I don't have access to this publication and would like to read it.
> Please
> > >> share with me, if you have it. Thanks.
> > >>
> > >> Madhav
> > >>
> > >> Madhav M. Deshpande
> > >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> > >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> > >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
> > >> India
> > >>
> > >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> > > committee)
> > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or
> > > unsubscribe)
>


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From john.lowe at orinst.ox.ac.uk  Mon Mar 22 10:36:14 2021
From: john.lowe at orinst.ox.ac.uk (John Lowe)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 21 10:36:14 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Departmental Lecturer in Sanskrit
Message-ID: <LO0P265MB30843FBA352CE19AE104E5CDFE659@LO0P265MB3084.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

The Faculty of Oriental Studies at Oxford is now advertising for a Departmental Lecturer in Sanskrit to cover the teaching and other duties of the vacant Boden Professor of Sanskrit post. The role is a full time fixed-term position for a period of 2 years from 1 October 2021. For more information please see here:

https://my.corehr.com/pls/uoxrecruit/erq_jobspec_details_form.jobspec?p_id=150147

Best wishes
John


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 15:52:29 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 21 09:52:29 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_seeking_a_rare_book,_S=CC=81ri=CC=84bhuvanes=CC=81vari=CC=84tattvapraka=CC=84s=CC=81ah=CC=A3?=
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cc4CAU+GyWkhLGoMhG5YE3z_tFnA8ryJcn9efwbhqG25w@mail.gmail.com>

A colleague has asked me how he can get and read,

Muttusva?mi Ca?stirikal, T. K. 1987. *S?ri?bhuvanes?vari?tattvapraka?s?ah?
= S?ri?puvanecvari tatvapraka?cam*. Putukkot?t?ai: S?ri?puvanecvari
Cari?t?is T?rast?.
Worldcat permalink: http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/312444730

Worldcat shows only one copy, at Universita?tsbibliothek der Eberhard Karls
Universita?t.

Any suggestions should be sent to Hari Iyer <hari08161 at gmail.com> (and CC
to the list).

Best,
Dominik Wujastyk

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk
<https://apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/wujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.


South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca

SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project <http://sushrutaproject.org>


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From John.Brockington at btinternet.com  Mon Mar 22 16:10:48 2021
From: John.Brockington at btinternet.com (John Brockington)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 21 16:10:48 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_journal?=
Message-ID: <d1b1316c-66f9-ff53-4402-cd34321fdb44@btinternet.com>

Dear Colleagues,

The most recent issue of the journal /Pur??a/ of which I am aware is 
volume 49 (2007).? Does anyone have firm information about whether any 
later volumes have been published or whether it has ceased publication.? 
Also, I am particularly interested in two articles in vol. 45 (2003), 
those by Bob Goldman and by Sally Sutherland Goldman; if anyone has PDFs 
of these I should be grateful to receive them.

Best wishes

John

  
Professor J.L. Brockington
113 Rutten Lane
Yarnton
Kidlington 0X5 1LT
tel: 01865 849438



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From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de  Mon Mar 22 16:19:34 2021
From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 21 17:19:34 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_journal?=
In-Reply-To: <d1b1316c-66f9-ff53-4402-cd34321fdb44@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <d6ed045b-2775-5cf5-7260-caf6c4ef1be6@uni-bonn.de>

Am 22.03.2021 um 17:10 schrieb John Brockington via INDOLOGY:
> The most recent issue of the journal /Pur??a/ of which I am aware is 
> volume 49 (2007).? Does anyone have firm information about whether any 
> later volumes have been published or whether it has ceased publication. 

The last published issue was Vol. 52 (numbered in Roman characters: 
LII), Nos. 1 & 2 (in one volume), July 2010. It looks like that the 
journal ceased publication afterwards.

Hope it helps,
Peter Wyzlic

-- 
Universit?t Bonn
Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften
Bibliothek
Br?hler Str. 7
D-53119 Bonn
Tel.: 0228/73-62436



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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Mon Mar 22 16:28:03 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 21 16:28:03 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Pur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_journal?=
In-Reply-To: <d1b1316c-66f9-ff53-4402-cd34321fdb44@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <F0DFBEA6-B873-4521-B915-252F63219229@uclouvain.be>

Dear John,
According to the information I have, the Purana Journal ended with the vol. 51 of 2009. Here a list sent by the Antiquarian Banerjee (who has himself stopped his activities).
Best wishes,
Christophe


Le 22 mars 2021 ? 17:10, John Brockington via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> a ?crit :

Dear Colleagues,

The most recent issue of the journal Pur??a of which I am aware isvolume 49 (2007).  Does anyone have firm information about whether any later volumes have been published or whether it has ceased publication.  Also, I am particularly interested in two articles in vol. 45 (2003), those by Bob Goldman and by Sally Sutherland Goldman; if anyone has PDFs of these I should be grateful to receive them.

Best wishes

John


Professor J.L. Brockington
113 Rutten Lane
Yarnton
Kidlington 0X5 1LT
tel: 01865 849438

_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-owner at list.indology.info> (messages to the list's managing committee)
http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 22:14:07 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 21 16:14:07 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Trippunitura MS catalogues?
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeYCs1Pp_K9WeU1yFnLUnC3aRO=nz3050ichfi8-k74cw@mail.gmail.com>

Biswas records the following two finding-aids for the library of the
Government Sanskrit College in Trippunitura (near Kochi and Ernakulam).

[image: image.png]
Does anyone have a scan of any of this material, by chance?  0995 probably
only exists at the NCC project at the U. Madras.   But 0996 may have been
published.

I visited this library some years ago, and saw their hand-written ledger /
accessions list.  But I was searching for a specific item, and it didn't
occur to me to do more.

Best,
Dominik

--
Professor Dominik Wujastyk
<https://apps.ualberta.ca/directory/person/wujastyk>
,

Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
,

Department of History and Classics <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
,
University of Alberta, Canada
.


South Asia at the U of A:

sas.ualberta.ca

SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project <http://sushrutaproject.org>


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From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 00:59:16 2021
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 21 09:59:16 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata_11.24.17?=
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QCC69vtCmUD5G3zoa5LLkzY8HzTyC43T9eXtnWg9kBC3w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

I apologize in advance for my shameless request.

I need to find out the page number of Mah?bh?rata 11.24.17 in the BORI
edition. It's the following stanza:
aya? sa ra?anotkar?? p?nastanavimardana? /
n?bhy?r?jaghanaspar?? n?v?visra?sana? kara? //

I have searched through archive.org. One of the available pdfs of the BORI
Mah?bh?rata is marked as the eleventh book, but it is a mistake.

I would be very grateful if someone could help me.

With best wishes (and my eyes fixed on the tips of my shoes in
embarrassment),

Gaia Pintucci


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From gaiapintucci at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 01:53:19 2021
From: gaiapintucci at gmail.com (Gaia Pintucci)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 21 10:53:19 +0900
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Mah=C4=81bh=C4=81rata_11.24.17?=
In-Reply-To: <CAOYD-QCC69vtCmUD5G3zoa5LLkzY8HzTyC43T9eXtnWg9kBC3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOYD-QB5FJC05R7vFNsTAdLepHOFQ-SdUuoKHesivsAiEt=6UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,

Thanks to those who replied!

I realize belatedly that a pdf of the volume that includes the
Sauptikaparvan and the Str?parvan (11) is actually available on archive.org.
I have evidently overlooked it. Very sorry for this and thanks again.

All the best,
Gaia Pintucci

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 9:59 AM Gaia Pintucci <gaiapintucci at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> I apologize in advance for my shameless request.
>
> I need to find out the page number of Mah?bh?rata 11.24.17 in the BORI
> edition. It's the following stanza:
> aya? sa ra?anotkar?? p?nastanavimardana? /
> n?bhy?r?jaghanaspar?? n?v?visra?sana? kara? //
>
> I have searched through archive.org. One of the available pdfs of the
> BORI Mah?bh?rata is marked as the eleventh book, but it is a mistake.
>
> I would be very grateful if someone could help me.
>
> With best wishes (and my eyes fixed on the tips of my shoes in
> embarrassment),
>
> Gaia Pintucci
>


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From gasyoun at ya.ru  Tue Mar 23 08:51:52 2021
From: gasyoun at ya.ru (=?utf-8?Q?M=C4=81rcis_Gas=C5=ABns?=)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 21 11:51:52 +0300
Subject: [INDOLOGY] History of Indian Mathematics: Archimedes Spiral
Message-ID: <11511616489467@mail.yandex.ru>


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Tue Mar 23 09:08:22 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 21 10:08:22 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Trippunitura MS catalogues?
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeYCs1Pp_K9WeU1yFnLUnC3aRO=nz3050ichfi8-k74cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E79A952-D0FA-49B5-BE45-F8A5F91AB37C@uclouvain.be>

Dear Dominik,

(I repeat Biswas references since the slide did not reach me)

I would be also interested to get a scanned copy of Biswas 0996,  this "Catalogue of manuscripts in Grantha Library attached to Sanskrit College, Trippunitura, Kerala, by K. Rama Pisharoti" appearing to corrrespond to  the hand-written catalogue in Malayalam script preserved in the Library itself, that visitors (like you and me) once saw there.
Biswas 0995 corresponds indeed with the (preserved at the) NCC 'Trippunittura' hand-lists: "Five hand-lists of collections of manuscripts in Trippunittura, Cochin, Kerala State, containing respectively 1839, 353, 211, 43 and 33 manuscripts.

I & II Lists ? of mss. in the Palace Library.

III List ? of mss. in the Puliyannur Mana. Same as Puliyannur Mana.

IV List ? of mss. in the Vadakkedattu Mana.

V List ? of mss. belonging to Ayurvedavidvan T. Kunchu Varier."

And so you put the EFEO copy of the List I-II (mss. of the Palace which must be now in the Sanskrit College library) at its right place in your repository.

The catalogue of the microfilms which were once made by the National Mission for Manuscripts is still available on the IGNCA website:
http://ignca.gov.in/mss/Kerala_ShriRam_Verma_Govt_Sanskrit_College_Tripunithura.pdf <http://ignca.gov.in/mss/Kerala_ShriRam_Verma_Govt_Sanskrit_College_Tripunithura.pdf>
In this case it nearly corresponds to the whole collection of the Trippunithura Sanskrit College Library (without the transcripts and the addenda, see below).

To the list III-V (the fate of these private collections of manuscripts remaining uncertain) and Biswas 0997 (mss. in the Uzhuttara Variyar , Trippunithura, that you provide), one can add now four "lists of manuscripts/transcripts newly identified" published in C.M. Neelakandhan ed., Sanskrit Tradition of Trippunithura, Trippunithura, Centre for Heritage Studies - Hill Palace, 2009, pp. 168-184 (I can copy the pages for your repository): three private collections nearby Trippunithura (Ernakulam and Alwaye) and one collection now included in the Sanskrit College one.

>From this interesting book, I attach here a copy of the introductory pages about the Sanskrit College collection (by the "editor", viz. C.M. Neelakandhan).

Best wishes,
Christophe

> Le 22 mars 2021 ? 23:14, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> a ?crit :
> 
> Biswas records the following two finding-aids for the library of the Government Sanskrit College in Trippunitura (near Kochi and Ernakulam).
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a scan of any of this material, by chance?  0995 probably only exists at the NCC project at the U. Madras.   But 0996 may have been published.
> 
> I visited this library some years ago, and saw their hand-written ledger / accessions list.  But I was searching for a specific item, and it didn't occur to me to do more.
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.ualberta.ca%2Fdirectory%2Fperson%2Fwujastyk&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654379590%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=geGgu4eHQw1CHaLZCBcgKZmHb%2BcYch3u6FCG579jHao%3D&reserved=0>,
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity,
> Department of History and Classics <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistoryandclassics.ualberta.ca%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654389579%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=kCsMRix3OrwAXir5tLNdBaskDcv1LakpCZ3p32mCDmA%3D&reserved=0>,
> University of Alberta, Canada.
> 
> South Asia at the U of A: sas.ualberta.ca <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsas.ualberta.ca%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654389579%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=NUkOYZ2MKAN7X3YGoAIx%2F%2FMGDSWlwIZmlUpyV8gjU5A%3D&reserved=0>
> SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsushrutaproject.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654399573%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=V5J1tt61b1IL7Wpqdz7MPyz5S%2FDVEF0c8%2BVMb%2FuuvmE%3D&reserved=0>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Mar 24 01:44:08 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 21 19:44:08 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Trippunitura MS catalogues?
In-Reply-To: <4E79A952-D0FA-49B5-BE45-F8A5F91AB37C@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-Cf=x-UhRxuMQEdOhmvcuqRSrHOZtZS_r-nFK6AFRcJWbw@mail.gmail.com>

fantastically helpful.  Thank you so much, Christophe!

Dominik

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 at 03:08, Christophe Vielle <
christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:

> Dear Dominik,
>
> (I repeat Biswas references since the slide did not reach me)
>
> I would be also interested to get a scanned copy of Biswas 0996,  this
> "Catalogue of manuscripts in Grantha Library attached to Sanskrit College,
> Trippunitura, Kerala, by K. Rama Pisharoti" appearing to corrrespond to
> the hand-written catalogue in Malayalam script preserved in the Library
> itself, that visitors (like you and me) once saw there.
>
> Biswas 0995 corresponds indeed with the (preserved at the) NCC
> 'Trippunittura' hand-lists: "Five hand-lists of collections of
> manuscripts in Trippunittura, Cochin, Kerala State, containing respectively
> 1839, 353, 211, 43 and 33 manuscripts.
>
> I & II Lists ? of mss. in the Palace Library.
>
> III List ? of mss. in the Puliyannur Mana. Same as *Puliyannur Mana*.
>
> IV List ? of mss. in the Vadakkedattu Mana.
>
> V List ? of mss. belonging to Ayurvedavidvan T. Kunchu Varier."
> And so you put the EFEO copy of the List I-II (mss. of the Palace which
> must be now in the Sanskrit College library) at its right place in your
> repository.
>
> The catalogue of the microfilms which were once made by the National
> Mission for Manuscripts is still available on the IGNCA website:
>
> http://ignca.gov.in/mss/Kerala_ShriRam_Verma_Govt_Sanskrit_College_Tripunithura.pdf
> In this case it nearly corresponds to the whole collection of the
> Trippunithura Sanskrit College Library (without the transcripts and the
> addenda, see below).
>
> To the list III-V (the fate of these private collections of manuscripts
> remaining uncertain) and Biswas 0997 (mss. in the Uzhuttara Variyar ,
> Trippunithura, that you provide), one can add now four "lists of
> manuscripts/transcripts newly identified" published in C.M. Neelakandhan
> ed., *Sanskrit Tradition of Trippunithura*, Trippunithura, Centre for
> Heritage Studies - Hill Palace, 2009, pp. 168-184 (I can copy the pages for
> your repository): three private collections nearby Trippunithura (Ernakulam
> and Alwaye) and one collection now included in the Sanskrit College one.
>
> From this interesting book, I attach here a copy of the introductory pages
> about the Sanskrit College collection (by the "editor", viz. C.M.
> Neelakandhan).
>
> Best wishes,
> Christophe
>
> Le 22 mars 2021 ? 23:14, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> a ?crit :
>
> Biswas records the following two finding-aids for the library of the
> Government Sanskrit College in Trippunitura (near Kochi and Ernakulam).
>
> [image: image.png]
> Does anyone have a scan of any of this material, by chance?  0995 probably
> only exists at the NCC project at the U. Madras.   But 0996 may have been
> published.
>
> I visited this library some years ago, and saw their hand-written ledger /
> accessions list.  But I was searching for a specific item, and it didn't
> occur to me to do more.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fapps.ualberta.ca%2Fdirectory%2Fperson%2Fwujastyk&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654379590%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=geGgu4eHQw1CHaLZCBcgKZmHb%2BcYch3u6FCG579jHao%3D&reserved=0>
> ,
>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> ,
>
> Department of History and Classics
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistoryandclassics.ualberta.ca%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654389579%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=kCsMRix3OrwAXir5tLNdBaskDcv1LakpCZ3p32mCDmA%3D&reserved=0>
> ,
> University of Alberta, Canada
> .
>
>
> South Asia at the U of A:
>
> sas.ualberta.ca
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsas.ualberta.ca%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654389579%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=NUkOYZ2MKAN7X3YGoAIx%2F%2FMGDSWlwIZmlUpyV8gjU5A%3D&reserved=0>
>
> SSHRC research: The Su?ruta Project
> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsushrutaproject.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Ceee1154145fe48d8dbed08d8ed7fea77%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637520481654399573%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=V5J1tt61b1IL7Wpqdz7MPyz5S%2FDVEF0c8%2BVMb%2FuuvmE%3D&reserved=0>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
>
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
>
>
>


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From mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com  Thu Mar 25 16:34:28 2021
From: mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com (alakendu das)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 21 16:34:28 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Texts on Paramanu(Atom)
Message-ID: <20210325163428.19363.qmail@f4mail-235-146.rediffmail.com>

Respected scholars,While going through Tarka Samgraha, a 16th century text on Nyay-Vaisheshika by Annambhatta, I found a&nbsp; reference to Atoms( Paramanu).If anybody may kindly refer to any other Ancient text on Nyay-Vaisheshika which contains an explanation of atoms.RegardsAlakendu Das&nbsp;


Sent from RediffmailNG on Android


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From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu  Fri Mar 26 15:04:20 2021
From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 15:04:20 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Brahm=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Dapur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_edition?=
Message-ID: <EB00FC03-548D-4669-9340-A9B1C2B1CB1E@oneonta.edu>

Hi all,

Would anyone happen to have a PDF version of the following edition of the Brahm???apur??a?

The  Brahm???a Mah?pur??a with English Introduction, Verse-Index and Textual Correction
Editor: K. V. Sharma
Varanasi: Krishnadas Academy, 2000 (reprint)

A PDF of another edition would work as well.

Alternatively, if anyone has access to the physical book of the above edition, I?m merely looking for a couple of page references.

Many thanks in advance.

Best wishes,
Toke

-----
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen, Ph.D.

Associate Professor
Department of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Statistics
State University of New York at Oneonta

Affiliated Researcher 
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen

Associate Editor
Convergence
https://www.maa.org/press/periodicals/convergence

<toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu>




From dnreigle at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 16:35:14 2021
From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 10:35:14 -0600
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Brahm=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Dapur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_edition?=
In-Reply-To: <EB00FC03-548D-4669-9340-A9B1C2B1CB1E@oneonta.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPAZekYSRa3Hsz7i_axBDBaQLwz21eFnC_sW8LpDNYRNoBYaRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Toke,

Here is a link to this edition:

https://archive.org/details/BrahmandaMahapuranEdByDr.KVSharmaKrishnaDasAcademy/page/n205/mode/2up

The pur??a text in this edition is a reprint of one of the
Venkatesvara Press printings. So it is the old Venkatesvara Press
edition, first published in 1906. This edition has more than the usual
number of corrupt readings, as has been noted by several researchers who
used it. R. C. Hazra in his *Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites
and Customs* used the Vangavasi Press edition, which was published in
Calcutta in 1908, probably in Bengali script. I have not seen it, and have
been trying to obtain a copy of it. This edition seems to have significant
differences from the Venkatesvara Press edition, in the way of additions
and omissions and better readings. The *Epic and Puranic Bibliography*
lists three other editions published in Calcutta, 1895, 1908, and 1940,
that I have no way to check. They are not held in any North American
Library and have not yet been scanned by the Digital Library of India, as
far as I can find.  As far as I know, the Venkatesvara Press edition and
the Calcutta editions are the only independently made editions that were
based directly on manuscripts. I would be glad to get a copy of any of the
Calcutta editions.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM Toke Knudsen <Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Would anyone happen to have a PDF version of the following edition of the
> Brahm???apur??a?
>
> The  Brahm???a Mah?pur??a with English Introduction, Verse-Index and
> Textual Correction
> Editor: K. V. Sharma
> Varanasi: Krishnadas Academy, 2000 (reprint)
>
> A PDF of another edition would work as well.
>
> Alternatively, if anyone has access to the physical book of the above
> edition, I?m merely looking for a couple of page references.
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Best wishes,
> Toke
>
> -----
> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen, Ph.D.
>
> Associate Professor
> Department of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Statistics
> State University of New York at Oneonta
>
> Affiliated Researcher
> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
> University of Copenhagen
>
> Associate Editor
> Convergence
> https://www.maa.org/press/periodicals/convergence
>
> <toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu  Fri Mar 26 16:58:42 2021
From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 17:58:42 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_"Economic_Class_in_Early_South_Asian_Buddhism:_Perspectives_from_Epigraphy_and_the_Divy=C4=81vad=C4=81na"_Matthew_D._Milligan,_March_30,_2021?=
Message-ID: <CADKD_zgA7QkUbj6ZgXqgwtcDGs0pxWYbDCb6UkDoTVa1FY7RAA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

With all apologies for crossposting, but this should be of interest to some
folk on the list. Below please find information on the third lecture
in the Ghent
Center for Buddhist Studies <http://www.cbs.ugent.be/node/1> Spring Lecture
Series (Permanent Training in Buddhist Studies (PTBS)) generously sponsored
by the Tianzhu Foundation. Matthew D. Milligan Trinity University (San
Antonio, TX) will give a lecture on March 30, 2021 at 19.00 Belgian
time. All lectures in this series will be held remotely over Zoom.
Interested parties are welcome to attend the series or individual talks. To
get the Zoom link, please register by writing to CBS at ugent.be *by the
morning *of March 30. The link will be sent out the day of the talk.

With my kind regards,

Charles DiSimone


*Economic Class in Early South Asian Buddhism: Perspectives from Epigraphy
and the Divy?vad?na*


*Matthew D. Milligan Trinity University (San Antonio, TX)*

To date, most studies of classical South Asian Buddhist demographics have
focused on var?a and conversion, mercantile professions, and, more
recently, finally, on gender. Unfortunately, even when scholars have turned
their gaze onto demographics they have primarily relied upon anachronistic
and generalized readings of literature and/or century old tabulations of
inscriptions. As far as I can tell, there have been no attempts to
critically examine economic class through close readings of texts and
historical documents together. In this paper, I will evaluate the
definition of ?economic class,? decouple it from classical Sanskrit
concepts of idealized var?a, and introduce some new data from texts and
inscriptions to examine the lived realities of ?class" from approximately
300 BCE until at least the 5th c. CE when the *Divy?vad?na* was composed.

*Bio*

Matthew D. Milligan is a Visiting Assistant Professor at Trinity University
in San Antonio, TX. He is also a Harwood Research Fellow at the American
Institute for Economic Research. He works on the intersections of Buddhism,
Economics, and Philology and has published numerous articles on the
economic history of Buddhism in South Asia. In addition to forthcoming
articles in the *Journal of Contemporary Religion *and *South Asian Studies*,
he is completing a book manuscript titled *Of Rags and Riches: The
Disruptive Business of Early Buddhism*. His latest project involves
decolonizing the field of engaged Buddhist Economics in the United States.

Dr. Charles DiSimone
Department of Languages and Cultures
Ghent University


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From pcbisschop at googlemail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:01:45 2021
From: pcbisschop at googlemail.com (peter bisschop)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 18:01:45 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_publication_announcement:_Skandapur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_volume_5?=
Message-ID: <CACDreE86Zy2X3hQhS67dbh0N0S++SwWz1yWZy+03UhxtS36U2A@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

I am pleased to announce the publication of volume 5 of the critical
edition of the Skandapur??a (Adhy?yas 96-112. The Var?ha Cycle and the
Andhaka Cycle Continued):
https://brill.com/view/title/59532

Thanks to the support of the J. Gonda Fund Foundation, its electronic
version is made available in Open Access. Of course there is nothing that
beats the real thing: the hardback can be pre-ordered from Brill and will
be available from 21 April.

The following link provides an overview of all the volumes published so far
in the series:
https://brill.com/view/serial/GOSS

For review copies for journal editors please contact Mrs. Patricia Radder
at Brill publishers: Radder at brill.com

We hope you enjoy the text as much as we do!

Best regards,
Also on behalf of Yuko Yokochi,
Peter Bisschop

??
Peter C. Bisschop
Professor of Sanskrit and Ancient Cultures of South Asia
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies (LIAS)
P.O. Box 9515 / 2300 RA Leiden / The Netherlands
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/peter-bisschop#tab-1
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/PeterBisschop


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Fri Mar 26 17:54:12 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 17:54:12 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Brahm=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Dapur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_edition?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPAZekYSRa3Hsz7i_axBDBaQLwz21eFnC_sW8LpDNYRNoBYaRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15A32A74-3E7C-4437-B1D2-95B5FDCC6CEC@uclouvain.be>

I dare to add some information:

? "The Bombay edition": Atha Brahm???amah?pur??a? pr?rabhyate, Mumbai: ?r?ve?ka?e?vara Steam Press, 1906 (?ake 1828 / V.S. 1963), was reprinted in 1912 (?ake 1834 / V.S. 1969) with the Lalitop?khy?na added (from f? 204 v?); then a new edition (viz. a new typographical composition) was produced by K?emar?ja ?r?k???ad?s, Mumbai: ?r?ve?ka?e?vara Press, 1935 (?ake 1857 / V.S. 1992). It is this last edition which has then been reprinted both as being the ?ed. K. V. Sharma?, Varanasi: Krishnadas Academy (Chowkhamba Press), Krishnadas Sanskrit series no. 41, 1983, 20002, 2009 etc., and New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 20023; and also as being the ?ed. J. L. Shastri? (with a "re-cutting" 1,5 f? = 1 p.), Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1973, 19832 (+ in both cases, a new introduction and pada-index).

? "The Calcutta edition" (in Bengali script): by Devendran?tha Vasu (with Bengali translation and notes by Nagendran?tha Vasu), Calcutta, Vi?vako?a Office, 1891-1894 (B. S. 1298-1301), 23 fascicules bounded en 1 vol. 1895 (B. S. 1302) ; reed. by Pa?c?nana Tarkaratna (with Bengali translation), Calcutta, Va?gav?s? Press, 1908 (B. S. 1315), 19892 (B. S. 1396).

Here a concordance of the V?P-B?P editions:  The Calcutta ed. of the B?P presents a text often closer to the one edited under the title V?P; it is incomplete.

Le 26 mars 2021 ? 17:35, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com<mailto:dnreigle at gmail.com>> a ?crit :

Dear Toke,

Here is a link to this edition:

https://archive.org/details/BrahmandaMahapuranEdByDr.KVSharmaKrishnaDasAcademy/page/n205/mode/2up<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2FBrahmandaMahapuranEdByDr.KVSharmaKrishnaDasAcademy%2Fpage%2Fn205%2Fmode%2F2up&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cfc455f9f17c44a7dcd4208d8f0752cd6%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637523734067802594%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=yPT22ud9ldiUML05aJ32%2FpxDQYgUhVn5benRCa2ftrA%3D&reserved=0>

The pur??a text in this edition is a reprint of one of the Venkatesvara Press printings. So it is the old Venkatesvara Press edition, first published in 1906. This edition has more than the usual number of corrupt readings, as has been noted by several researchers who used it. R. C. Hazra in his Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs used the Vangavasi Press edition, which was published in Calcutta in 1908, probably in Bengali script. I have not seen it, and have been trying to obtain a copy of it. This edition seems to have significant differences from the Venkatesvara Press edition, in the way of additions and omissions and better readings. The Epic and Puranic Bibliography lists three other editions published in Calcutta, 1895, 1908, and 1940, that I have no way to check. They are not held in any North American Library and have not yet been scanned by the Digital Library of India, as far as I can find.  As far as I know, the Venkatesvara Press edition and the Calcutta editions are the only independently made editions that were based directly on manuscripts. I would be glad to get a copy of any of the Calcutta editions.

Best regards,

David Reigle
Colorado, U.S.A.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM Toke Knudsen <Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu<mailto:Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu>> wrote:
Hi all,

Would anyone happen to have a PDF version of the following edition of the Brahm???apur??a?

The  Brahm???a Mah?pur??a with English Introduction, Verse-Index and Textual Correction
Editor: K. V. Sharma
Varanasi: Krishnadas Academy, 2000 (reprint)

A PDF of another edition would work as well.

Alternatively, if anyone has access to the physical book of the above edition, I?m merely looking for a couple of page references.

Many thanks in advance.

Best wishes,
Toke

-----
Toke Lindegaard Knudsen, Ph.D.

Associate Professor
Department of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Statistics
State University of New York at Oneonta

Affiliated Researcher
Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
University of Copenhagen

Associate Editor
Convergence
https://www.maa.org/press/periodicals/convergence<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maa.org%2Fpress%2Fperiodicals%2Fconvergence&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7Cfc455f9f17c44a7dcd4208d8f0752cd6%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637523734067802594%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ymqZfdEYNNonqkeHDyHDmmu7LyRNEkOmoe8WgpKRjww%3D&reserved=0>

<toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu<mailto:toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu>>
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
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To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
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http://listinfo.indology.info<http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu  Fri Mar 26 18:53:44 2021
From: finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu (Finnian Moore-Gerety)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 14:53:44 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sensing the Sacred, a new podcast on South Asian religions
Message-ID: <61E2A2DC-7B8C-41C2-B5E9-7A12A2DF02CB@brown.edu>

Dear Indology colleagues--
I?m thrilled to be launching Sensing the Sacred <https://watson.brown.edu/southasia/news/podcasts>  a new podcast from the Center for Contemporary South Asia at the Watson Institute at Brown University. We?ll be hosting interdisciplinary conversations with colleagues about their latest work at the intersection of South Asian religion, politics, and society. Our debut episode is a conversation with political scientist Ashutosh Varshney about religion, violence, and Hindu nationalism.

Stay tuned <https://anchor.fm/finnian-m-moore-gerety> for new episodes in weeks to come.

Yours,

Finnian M.M. Gerety
Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies
[Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for Contemporary South Asia
Brown University
www.finniangerety.com <http://finniangerety.com/>










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From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu  Fri Mar 26 19:37:45 2021
From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 19:37:45 +0000
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Brahm=C4=81=E1=B9=87=E1=B8=8Dapur=C4=81=E1=B9=87a_edition?=
In-Reply-To: <15A32A74-3E7C-4437-B1D2-95B5FDCC6CEC@uclouvain.be>
Message-ID: <0CAC6B57-2DBC-430D-9CAD-56D3E5184BF9@oneonta.edu>

Dear David and Christophe,

Thank you so much for the link and the information. I really appreciate it.

Have a good weekend.

Best wishes,
Toke



> On Mar 26, 2021, at 13:54, Christophe Vielle <christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:
> 
> I dare to add some information:
> 
> ? "The Bombay edition": Atha Brahm???amah?pur??a? pr?rabhyate, Mumbai: ?r?ve?ka?e?vara Steam Press, 1906 (?ake 1828 / V.S. 1963), was reprinted in 1912 (?ake 1834 / V.S. 1969) with the Lalitop?khy?na added (from f? 204 v?); then a new edition (viz. a new typographical composition) was produced by K?emar?ja ?r?k???ad?s, Mumbai: ?r?ve?ka?e?vara Press, 1935 (?ake 1857 / V.S. 1992). It is this last edition which has then been reprinted both as being the ?ed. K. V. Sharma?, Varanasi: Krishnadas Academy (Chowkhamba Press), Krishnadas Sanskrit series no. 41, 1983, 20002, 2009 etc., and New Delhi: Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, 20023; and also as being the ?ed. J. L. Shastri? (with a "re-cutting" 1,5 f? = 1 p.), Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 1973, 19832 (+ in both cases, a new introduction and pada-index).    
> 
> ? "The Calcutta edition" (in Bengali script): by Devendran?tha Vasu (with Bengali translation and notes by Nagendran?tha Vasu), Calcutta, Vi?vako?a Office, 1891-1894 (B. S. 1298-1301), 23 fascicules bounded en 1 vol. 1895 (B. S. 1302) ; reed. by Pa?c?nana Tarkaratna (with Bengali translation), Calcutta, Va?gav?s? Press, 1908 (B. S. 1315), 19892 (B. S. 1396).
> 
> Here a concordance of the V?P-B?P editions:  The Calcutta ed. of the B?P presents a text often closer to the one edited under the title V?P; it is incomplete.
> 
>> Le 26 mars 2021 ? 17:35, David and Nancy Reigle <dnreigle at gmail.com> a ?crit :
>> 
>> Dear Toke,
>> 
>> Here is a link to this edition:
>> 
>> https://archive.org/details/BrahmandaMahapuranEdByDr.KVSharmaKrishnaDasAcademy/page/n205/mode/2up
>> 
>> The pur??a text in this edition is a reprint of one of the Venkatesvara Press printings. So it is the old Venkatesvara Press edition, first published in 1906. This edition has more than the usual number of corrupt readings, as has been noted by several researchers who used it. R. C. Hazra in his Studies in the Puranic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs used the Vangavasi Press edition, which was published in Calcutta in 1908, probably in Bengali script. I have not seen it, and have been trying to obtain a copy of it. This edition seems to have significant differences from the Venkatesvara Press edition, in the way of additions and omissions and better readings. The Epic and Puranic Bibliography lists three other editions published in Calcutta, 1895, 1908, and 1940, that I have no way to check. They are not held in any North American Library and have not yet been scanned by the Digital Library of India, as far as I can find.  As far as I know, the Venkatesvara Press edition and the Calcutta editions are the only independently made editions that were based directly on manuscripts. I would be glad to get a copy of any of the Calcutta editions. 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> David Reigle
>> Colorado, U.S.A.
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM Toke Knudsen <Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Would anyone happen to have a PDF version of the following edition of the Brahm???apur??a?
>> 
>> The  Brahm???a Mah?pur??a with English Introduction, Verse-Index and Textual Correction
>> Editor: K. V. Sharma
>> Varanasi: Krishnadas Academy, 2000 (reprint)
>> 
>> A PDF of another edition would work as well.
>> 
>> Alternatively, if anyone has access to the physical book of the above edition, I?m merely looking for a couple of page references.
>> 
>> Many thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> Toke
>> 
>> -----
>> Toke Lindegaard Knudsen, Ph.D.
>> 
>> Associate Professor
>> Department of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Statistics
>> State University of New York at Oneonta
>> 
>> Affiliated Researcher 
>> Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies
>> University of Copenhagen
>> 
>> Associate Editor
>> Convergence
>> https://www.maa.org/press/periodicals/convergence
>> 
>> <toke.knudsen at oneonta.edu>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
> 
> ???????????????????
> Christophe Vielle
> Louvain-la-Neuve
> 
> 
> 
> <Table of concordance BdP-VaP.pdf>




From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl  Fri Mar 26 19:53:46 2021
From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 21 20:53:46 +0100
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Sensing the Sacred, a new podcast on South Asian religions
In-Reply-To: <61E2A2DC-7B8C-41C2-B5E9-7A12A2DF02CB@brown.edu>
Message-ID: <CAAPrgbpr6nTmBs1h=f+c8o2o-um=gVSTVFpsm1BnTyQ-FD-8QQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's a wonderful idea! Thank you, Finnian!

Best,

Joanna

---

Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz

Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies

Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies

Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw

ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28

00-927 Warszawa , Poland

Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages

College of Human Sciences

UNISA

Pretoria, RSA

Member of Academia Europaea

https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz


pt., 26 mar 2021 o 19:53 Finnian Moore-Gerety <
finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu> napisa?(a):

> Dear Indology colleagues--
> I?m thrilled to be launching Sensing the Sacred
> <https://watson.brown.edu/southasia/news/podcasts>  a new podcast from
> the Center for Contemporary South Asia at the Watson Institute at Brown
> University. We?ll be hosting interdisciplinary conversations with
> colleagues about their latest work at the intersection of South Asian
> religion, politics, and society. Our debut episode is a conversation with
> political scientist Ashutosh Varshney about religion, violence, and Hindu
> nationalism.
>
> Stay tuned <https://anchor.fm/finnian-m-moore-gerety> for new episodes in
> weeks to come.
>
> Yours,
>
> Finnian M.M. Gerety
> Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies
> [Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for
> Contemporary South Asia
> Brown University
> www.finniangerety.com <http://finniangerety.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 20:22:35 2021
From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 21 16:22:35 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Ga=E1=B9=87e=C5=9Ba_mantra?=
Message-ID: <CAJ3b0o9YGYZHJZFKodpXUeYZvvBsBXXu3HuzZTe446hB0xs5tw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear list members,
Can anyone give me any information about the following Ga?e?a mantra (what
scripture it is originally from, how old it is, ritual usage, anecdotal
information, anything).

 gaj?nana? bh?taga??disevita?

kapitthajamb?phalac?rubhak?a?am |

um?suta? ?okavin??ak?raka?

nam?mi vighne?varap?dapa?kajam ||

I was under the impression it was a popular mantra. but on searching GRETIL
and Muktabodha, and the internet,  I was only able to find it in Kul?la??stra
(IFP transcript T0452) and a mention in an online website that its part of
the rituals on Holika Dahan.


Thanks,
Harry Spier


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From filipsky at orient.cas.cz  Sun Mar 28 10:47:29 2021
From: filipsky at orient.cas.cz (=?utf-8?Q?Jan_Filipsk=C3=BD?=)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 21 12:47:29 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Auvaiyar monument in Chennai - authorship
Message-ID: <007201d723bf$bfd768d0$3f863a70$@orient.cas.cz>

Dear List members,

as most of you are doubtless aware, the picturesque seashore promenade in
Chennai (Madras) known as Marina Beach is embellished by numerous statues.
Many of them were erected in January 1968  as memorials  of icons of Tamil
literature (including Avvaiyar, Tiruvalluvar, etc.) to mark the Second World
Tamil Conference, organized by then DMK government of C. N. Annadurai. 

Whereas the authorship of some statues is well-known, e.g., Debi Prasad Roy
Choudhury  <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire> MBE
(1899-1975) - Triumph of Labour, Gandhi -  the sculptor of Auvaiyar/Avvaiyar
remains, at least for me and my colleagues, obscure. There are some
indications that the famous artist S. Dhanapal (1919-2000), who studied at
the Government School of Arts and Crafts under the tutelage of D.P.R.
Choudhury, has sculpted Auvaiyar, but the hard evidence that he was the
author of the Marina monument is missing. 

I therefore hope that the collective genius of the list will help and
somebody knowledgeable would be kind enough to identify the sculptor, the
material of the "composite" statue depicting at least three poetesses by the
same name from various epochs, and the size (height) of the artefact, if
possible.

With many thanks, Jan Filipsky, Oriental Institute, Praha  

 

 



-- 
Tento e-mail byl zkontrolov?n na viry programem AVG.
http://www.avg.cz


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 02:21:52 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 21 20:21:52 -0600
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <CAGCGLoAUFchXBVgdfy5T3NFHSScZzFr=rk5HDAhj+ZoRk3m=dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKdt-CeKTAEfciWjv93rVZMrmB32S30+DV3HzrZuCaMCQZB7Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Would it be possible for someone senior at Berkeley to communicate to the
managers of the SA library at Berkeley the experience of scholars at Leiden
and Utrecht and Oxford and what was lost by the changes?  This would
include (at least) information on the social factors about meeting-spaces,
about the importance of serendipity as a form of knowledge-discovery and
about the identity-formation of a research field.

The Ithaka foundation <https://www.ithaka.org/> - the people behind JSTOR -
regularly produce influential reports to the academic library world.
Perhaps they would be willing to look into this issue in a serious way?
Perhaps they have already thought about this issue?

I happened to be a fellow at the IIAS in Leiden during the last year of the
Kern Library's existence.  It was a wonder.  The most fabulous place to do
research.

At my university, we've never had a distinct SA collection.  But all the
main stacks are open access, which really helps discovery, and they have
tables and chairs in them to encourage working near the collections.  It's
not the same as the Kern etc., but it helps a bit.


Best,
Dominik





On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 11:03, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> As the examples in Utrecht (ca. 30 years ago) and Leiden (ca. 15 years
> ago) tend to show, it is indeed of utmost importance not to fall into the
> trap of such verbiage and continue fighting against attacks on the direct
> accessibility to research space and tools in our field...
> I do not know details about the main librarians at UC Berkeley but would
> not be surprised if they have never read any of the books they are
> 'managing' (the then general director of the Utrecht library admitted he
> only read comics, and not even good ones...)...
> Jan Houben
>
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 15:40, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for sharing this.
>>
>> The same thing happened in Leiden with the forced integration of the Kern
>> Institute library into the main library. Among the losses, most important
>> was the loss of a physical place within which scholars of South Asia could
>> meet. In addition, the library now puts all new publications directly into
>> the closed stacks, in order to "save space". The library is now more like
>> dead storage than a living place, despite the creation of an "Asian
>> Library" which is, however, not freely open to visitors, does not allow
>> good access to the book collections, etc. It's one good way to erode a
>> field as a dynamic entity, and depressing that the verbiage of the UC
>> Berkeley library document shared on the website is nearly identical to that
>> used in Leiden.
>>
>> Jonathan Silk
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>> From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
>>> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
>>> Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>>> To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>
>>>
>>>
>>> Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGN THE PETITION HERE
>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By signing this petition
>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>>
>>> After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL)
>>> located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate
>>> office cubicles. Read the proposal: here
>>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/call_for_public_comment_for_south_southeast_asia_library.pdf>
>>> .
>>>
>>> Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL
>>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/ssea-library> has served as a
>>> window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross
>>> cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition
>>> to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL
>>> serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated
>>> exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and
>>> fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the
>>> South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international
>>> levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a *physical
>>> space* for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.
>>>
>>> Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus
>>> languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship
>>> on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations
>>> comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the
>>> S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage
>>> of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who
>>> identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the *only* space on
>>> campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions'
>>> cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is
>>> calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the
>>> two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL
>>> is taken for office cubicles, we lose our *only* place to experience
>>> the region as well as the heart of our collegiality.
>>>
>>> The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the* only* library
>>> of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes
>>> the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
>>> <https://sseas.berkeley.edu/> at UC Berkeley (the *only* one of its
>>> kind in the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute
>>> for South Asia Studies <https://southasia.berkeley.edu/> and the Center
>>> for Southeast Asia Studies <https://ieas.berkeley.edu/centers/cseas>,
>>> who receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of
>>> regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its
>>> mission and most importantly *physical space*.
>>>
>>> This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an
>>> assault not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of
>>> our student body who call this place ?home.?
>>>
>>> By signing this petition
>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> J. Silk
>> Leiden University
>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>> The Netherlands
>>
>> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
>> copies of my publications may be found at
>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>
> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction,
> transmission
>
> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>


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From mauricio.jose.najarro at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 03:03:36 2021
From: mauricio.jose.najarro at gmail.com (Mauricio Najarro)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 08:33:36 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <CAKdt-CeKTAEfciWjv93rVZMrmB32S30+DV3HzrZuCaMCQZB7Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <567642B5-27A5-46E0-AC90-3DA2D4840845@gmail.com>

Dear all,

Thanks to the efforts of scholars and students, the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley will remain open. Here is the notice from the Library itself:

https://news.lib.berkeley.edu/sseal?fbclid=IwAR0OnHh8iTXp7RFLT8aFrwsOA5VaGTJbbUV4qiAYPGcG92lc23UuSoF8bqQ

Thank you all for doing your part to help us keep the space.

Warmly,

Mauricio 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2021, at 7:52 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?
> Would it be possible for someone senior at Berkeley to communicate to the managers of the SA library at Berkeley the experience of scholars at Leiden and Utrecht and Oxford and what was lost by the changes?  This would include (at least) information on the social factors about meeting-spaces, about the importance of serendipity as a form of knowledge-discovery and about the identity-formation of a research field. 
> 
> The Ithaka foundation - the people behind JSTOR - regularly produce influential reports to the academic library world.  Perhaps they would be willing to look into this issue in a serious way?  Perhaps they have already thought about this issue?
> 
> I happened to be a fellow at the IIAS in Leiden during the last year of the Kern Library's existence.  It was a wonder.  The most fabulous place to do research.
> 
> At my university, we've never had a distinct SA collection.  But all the main stacks are open access, which really helps discovery, and they have tables and chairs in them to encourage working near the collections.  It's not the same as the Kern etc., but it helps a bit.  
> 
> 
> Best,
> Dominik
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 11:03, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:
>> As the examples in Utrecht (ca. 30 years ago) and Leiden (ca. 15 years ago) tend to show, it is indeed of utmost importance not to fall into the trap of such verbiage and continue fighting against attacks on the direct accessibility to research space and tools in our field...  
>> I do not know details about the main librarians at UC Berkeley but would not be surprised if they have never read any of the books they are 'managing' (the then general director of the Utrecht library admitted he only read comics, and not even good ones...)... 
>> Jan Houben
>> 
>>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 15:40, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Thank you for sharing this.
>>> 
>>> The same thing happened in Leiden with the forced integration of the Kern Institute library into the main library. Among the losses, most important was the loss of a physical place within which scholars of South Asia could meet. In addition, the library now puts all new publications directly into the closed stacks, in order to "save space". The library is now more like dead storage than a living place, despite the creation of an "Asian Library" which is, however, not freely open to visitors, does not allow good access to the book collections, etc. It's one good way to erode a field as a dynamic entity, and depressing that the verbiage of the UC Berkeley library document shared on the website is nearly identical to that used in Leiden.
>>> 
>>> Jonathan Silk
>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
>>>> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
>>>> Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>>>> To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> SIGN THE PETITION HERE
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> By signing this petition you reject the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library at 120 Doe Library, and support its current location and mission. 
>>>> 
>>>> After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL) located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate office cubicles. Read the proposal: here.
>>>> Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL has served as a window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a physical space for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.
>>>> Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the only space on campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions' cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL is taken for office cubicles, we lose our only place to experience the region as well as the heart of our collegiality.
>>>> The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the only library of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies at UC Berkeley (the only one of its kind in the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute for South Asia Studies and the Center for Southeast Asia Studies, who receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its mission and most importantly physical space.
>>>> This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an assault not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of our student body who call this place ?home.?
>>>> By signing this petition you reject the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library at 120 Doe Library, and support its current location and mission.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> J. Silk
>>> Leiden University
>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>> The Netherlands
>>> 
>>> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Jan E.M. Houben
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>> Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>> Sciences historiques et philologiques 
>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)
>> johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu
>> https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> https://www.classicalindia.info
>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- L'Inde Classique augment?e: construction, transmission 
>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)


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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Mon Mar 29 03:10:54 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 21 20:10:54 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <567642B5-27A5-46E0-AC90-3DA2D4840845@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzfn1s28+RY4djUn1iwb==Q-R8Pzei7Wd+ibsF+TCAMFhg@mail.gmail.com>

Wonderful news!

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 8:04 PM Mauricio Najarro <
mauricio.jose.najarro at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> Thanks to the efforts of scholars and students, the South/Southeast Asia
> Library at UC Berkeley will remain open. Here is the notice from the
> Library itself:
>
>
> https://news.lib.berkeley.edu/sseal?fbclid=IwAR0OnHh8iTXp7RFLT8aFrwsOA5VaGTJbbUV4qiAYPGcG92lc23UuSoF8bqQ
>
> Thank you all for doing your part to help us keep the space.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Mauricio
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 29, 2021, at 7:52 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?
> Would it be possible for someone senior at Berkeley to communicate to the
> managers of the SA library at Berkeley the experience of scholars at Leiden
> and Utrecht and Oxford and what was lost by the changes?  This would
> include (at least) information on the social factors about meeting-spaces,
> about the importance of serendipity as a form of knowledge-discovery and
> about the identity-formation of a research field.
>
> The Ithaka foundation <https://www.ithaka.org/> - the people behind JSTOR
> - regularly produce influential reports to the academic library world.
> Perhaps they would be willing to look into this issue in a serious way?
> Perhaps they have already thought about this issue?
>
> I happened to be a fellow at the IIAS in Leiden during the last year of
> the Kern Library's existence.  It was a wonder.  The most fabulous place to
> do research.
>
> At my university, we've never had a distinct SA collection.  But all the
> main stacks are open access, which really helps discovery, and they have
> tables and chairs in them to encourage working near the collections.  It's
> not the same as the Kern etc., but it helps a bit.
>
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 11:03, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> As the examples in Utrecht (ca. 30 years ago) and Leiden (ca. 15 years
>> ago) tend to show, it is indeed of utmost importance not to fall into the
>> trap of such verbiage and continue fighting against attacks on the direct
>> accessibility to research space and tools in our field...
>> I do not know details about the main librarians at UC Berkeley but would
>> not be surprised if they have never read any of the books they are
>> 'managing' (the then general director of the Utrecht library admitted he
>> only read comics, and not even good ones...)...
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 15:40, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for sharing this.
>>>
>>> The same thing happened in Leiden with the forced integration of the
>>> Kern Institute library into the main library. Among the losses, most
>>> important was the loss of a physical place within which scholars of South
>>> Asia could meet. In addition, the library now puts all new publications
>>> directly into the closed stacks, in order to "save space". The library is
>>> now more like dead storage than a living place, despite the creation of an
>>> "Asian Library" which is, however, not freely open to visitors, does not
>>> allow good access to the book collections, etc. It's one good way to erode
>>> a field as a dynamic entity, and depressing that the verbiage of the UC
>>> Berkeley library document shared on the website is nearly identical to that
>>> used in Leiden.
>>>
>>> Jonathan Silk
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 3:10 PM Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> From: Jonathan Rodgers <jrodgers at umich.edu>
>>>> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 at 06:51
>>>> Subject: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>>>> To: <AmericanOrientalSociety at umich.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
>>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGN THE PETITION HERE
>>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By signing this petition
>>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>>>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>>>
>>>> After 50 years in operation, the South/Southeast Asia Library (S/SEAL)
>>>> located at 120 Doe Library on campus is at risk of closure to accommodate
>>>> office cubicles. Read the proposal: here
>>>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/call_for_public_comment_for_south_southeast_asia_library.pdf>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Opened in 1970, the S/SEAL
>>>> <https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/libraries/ssea-library> has served as a
>>>> window to the world of South and Southeast Asian cultures to promote cross
>>>> cultural understanding in the humanities and social sciences. In addition
>>>> to its foundational role supporting scholarship of the area, the S/SEAL
>>>> serves the community through academic & professional presentations, curated
>>>> exhibitions of the collection, library and course orientations, and
>>>> fundraising and book launching events to strengthen and promote the
>>>> South/Southeast Asian community on the local, national and international
>>>> levels. But the primary day-to-day function of the S/SEAL is a *physical
>>>> space* for interaction with, and enrichment of, the student body.
>>>>
>>>> Representing 19 countries with material sourced over decades in 30 plus
>>>> languages, the S/SEAL serves as the heart of interdisciplinary scholarship
>>>> on campus for some of the world?s oldest, most diverse civilizations
>>>> comprising 30% of the world?s population. Located at 120 Doe Library, the
>>>> S/SEAL provides a physical space for students to interact with the heritage
>>>> of the region and feel at home. For members of our student body who
>>>> identify as South and/or Southeast Asian, this is the *only* space on
>>>> campus dedicated to the celebration and preservation of both regions'
>>>> cultural production. The space has a humble seating capacity of 30+, is
>>>> calm and conducive to engagement with the resources, and is curated by the
>>>> two South Asia and Southeast Asia librarians. If the space for the S/SEAL
>>>> is taken for office cubicles, we lose our *only* place to experience
>>>> the region as well as the heart of our collegiality.
>>>>
>>>> The physical setting of the South/Southeast Asia Library is the* only* library
>>>> of its kind in the United States and in the world! It primarily nourishes
>>>> the scholars of the Department of South and Southeast Asian Studies
>>>> <https://sseas.berkeley.edu/> at UC Berkeley (the *only* one of its
>>>> kind in the United States). The S/SEAL also supports the goals of the Institute
>>>> for South Asia Studies <https://southasia.berkeley.edu/> and the Center
>>>> for Southeast Asia Studies <https://ieas.berkeley.edu/centers/cseas>,
>>>> who receive Title VI federal funding to support the hosting and training of
>>>> regional scholars. The South/Southeast Asia library is wholly unique in its
>>>> mission and most importantly *physical space*.
>>>>
>>>> This attempted erasure of the library's history and heritage is an
>>>> assault not only on our academic institutions & centers but also members of
>>>> our student body who call this place ?home.?
>>>>
>>>> By signing this petition
>>>> <https://www.change.org/p/uc-berkeley-library-save-the-south-southeast-asia-library-at-uc-berkeley?recruiter=547919927&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=ea89bc50-23a5-11e6-9f0b-57db3a989ab4>
>>>>  you *reject* the proposed closure of the South/Southeast Asia Library
>>>> at 120 Doe Library,* and support* its current location and mission.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> J. Silk
>>> Leiden University
>>> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
>>> Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
>>> 2311 BZ Leiden
>>> The Netherlands
>>>
>>> website: www.OpenPhilology.eu
>>> copies of my publications may be found at
>>> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)
>>
>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>
>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>>
>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction,
>> transmission
>>
>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Mon Mar 29 13:55:22 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 15:55:22 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] About four catalogues of South-Indian manuscripts made in the very beginning of the 19th century
Message-ID: <75072A1B-60E3-4391-A367-D049D42B6B6F@uclouvain.be>

Dear list,

In Claudius Buchanan <https://www.google.be/search?hl=fr&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:%22Claudius+Buchanan%22&source=gbs_metadata_r&cad=5>'s Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices on the Translation of the Scriptures Into the Oriental Languages, Cambridge, 1811, https://books.google.com <https://books.google.com/books?id=9ncOAAAAQAAJ>/books?id=9ncOAAAAQAAJ <https://books.google.com/books?id=9ncOAAAAQAAJ>,

 p. 93, in a letter dated to the 19th Oct. 1806, it is said;

?I requested that the Rajah would be pleased to present a Catalogue of all the Hindoo Manuscripts in the Temples of Travancore to the College of Fort-William in Bengal. The Brahmins were very averse to this; but when I shewed the Rajah the catalogues of the books in the Temples of Tanjore, given by the Rajah of Tanjore, and those of the Temple of Ramisseram, given me by order of the Rannie (or Queen) of Ramnad ; he desired it might be done : and orders have been sent to the Hindoo College of Trichoor for that purpose.?*

* The three Catalogues, together with that of the Rajah of Cochin, which the Author procured afterwards, are now deposited in the College of Fort-William, and probably contain all the Hindoo literature of the South of India.


Would these four old catalogues of (Sanskrit) manuscripts (Tanjore, Rameswaran, Travancore, Cochin) still exist somewhere in Calcutta or London?

Best wishes,
???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Mar 29 16:06:44 2021
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 16:06:44 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Catalogus Catalogorum
Message-ID: <E0F81488-0B21-4EB5-BAB9-745BF3454928@austin.utexas.edu>

Dear Friends:

I need to use Volumes 27 and 30 of the NCC. I cannot find a scan of them on Archive.com<http://Archive.com> (there I found vols. 1 - 19). Does anyone know how I can access them without physically going to a library, which is difficult these days. Thanks.

Patrick Olivelle


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 16:15:49 2021
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 21:45:49 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: New Catalogus Catalogorum
In-Reply-To: <E0F81488-0B21-4EB5-BAB9-745BF3454928@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZi6cUUSXvN6073RKGheRcS8-d3020-d9vCEyB6Qpb1oag@mail.gmail.com>

https://vmlt.in/

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:37 PM Olivelle, J P <jpo at austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

> Dear Friends:
>
> I need to use Volumes 27 and 30 of the NCC. I cannot find a scan of them
> on Archive.com (there I found vols. 1 - 19). Does anyone know how I can
> access them without physically going to a library, which is difficult these
> days. Thanks.
>
> Patrick Olivelle
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 16:17:20 2021
From: krishnaprasadah.g at gmail.com (Krishnaprasad G)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 21:47:20 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: New Catalogus Catalogorum
In-Reply-To: <E0F81488-0B21-4EB5-BAB9-745BF3454928@austin.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <CAODNnZiA2gpfxPwkZ6ekeBw+D8sFimHGbpGDnrya7Zo14rbSMg@mail.gmail.com>

https://vmlt.in/ncc/1?page=1

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021, 9:37 PM Olivelle, J P <jpo at austin.utexas.edu> wrote:

> Dear Friends:
>
> I need to use Volumes 27 and 30 of the NCC. I cannot find a scan of them
> on Archive.com (there I found vols. 1 - 19). Does anyone know how I can
> access them without physically going to a library, which is difficult these
> days. Thanks.
>
> Patrick Olivelle
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Mar 29 16:21:51 2021
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 16:21:51 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] NCC
Message-ID: <3D2402D0-43E5-4E81-974B-479062B6FBC9@austin.utexas.edu>

THANK YOU for everyone who sent me scans and links. Such a helpful list. 

Patrick




From jpo at austin.utexas.edu  Mon Mar 29 20:35:20 2021
From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 21 20:35:20 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit term
Message-ID: <065C1386-6AF7-47DE-BBC4-860FBCD782C0@austin.utexas.edu>

Dear All:

I wonder whether any of you have come across the expression: pariparamaguru? I find this in a text I am editing, although this sentence cited by T. Ganapati Sastri omits the initial pari. It could be he just felt it was a mistake, but I want to be sure that it not another way of referring to the par?tparaguru. Thanks.

Patrick




From psdmccartney at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 05:44:52 2021
From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 14:44:52 +0900
Subject: [INDOLOGY] deva+nagari
Message-ID: <CAEzwJrDmxJ8xX4eG8n-70X4B=B9MV7S7fnbRVBgv2fPMY57efA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Friends,

Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when the
n?gar? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan?gar??

The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by the
7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably clear.
Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the lipi
becomes a deva.

Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of
orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.

Thank you.


All the best,

????? ???????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
(OICD), Kyoto
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
National University
Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
University

Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
 Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
 Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>

*bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)







   -


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From andrew.ollett at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 12:08:29 2021
From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 07:08:29 -0500
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <CAEzwJrDmxJ8xX4eG8n-70X4B=B9MV7S7fnbRVBgv2fPMY57efA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAANHO15HSjPp-4mH4_nQdcnRXTABZgZXFPXxCi_5s5bhKjnhmA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Patrick,

I too was wondering about this a while back, and received the following two
references from Professor Oskar von Hin?ber, which I pass on to the list
because they may be of more general interest:

J. F. Blumhardt: Catalogue of the Gujarati and Rajasthani Manuscripts in
the India Office Library. London1954, S.6 on the name devanagari. (
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001173373)

Walter H. Maurer: On the name devan?gar? , JAOS 96.1976, S. 101-104 (
https://www.jstor.org/stable/599893)


>From these it appears that the earliest attestation of the name is in 1731,
when La Croze
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturin_Veyssi%C3%A8re_La_Croze> mentioned
"Devanagari" as an alternative to "Nagari" in a letter to Theophilus Bayer,
where he describes it as "the character used by Bramans," in contrast to
Balabande (Balabodha), "the character used by the Marathas." (This is
presumably printed in La Croze's correspondence, *Thesaurus Epistolicus
Lacrozianus*, but I haven't tracked it down there. Blumhardt has a very
brief reference on p. 6.) This is older than the reference Maurer gives,
viz. to Halhed's *Code of Gentoo Laws* in 1776. La Croze must have based
his information on books or manuscripts in Berlin.

I have not so far seen any explanation of the name, or any sources (Indian
or European) prior to 1731 where it is used.

Andrew

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:45 AM patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when the
> n?gar? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan?gar??
>
> The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by
> the 7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably
> clear. Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the
> lipi becomes a deva.
>
> Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of
> orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> ????? ???????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
> (OICD), Kyoto
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
> Japan
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
> National University
> Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
> University
>
> Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
> Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
>  Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
> <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>  Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>
> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From mkapstei at uchicago.edu  Tue Mar 30 12:48:40 2021
From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 12:48:40 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO15HSjPp-4mH4_nQdcnRXTABZgZXFPXxCi_5s5bhKjnhmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR11MB43969757615325450AB3FD6BA17D9@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

For what it's worth, the Tibetan regent Sangs rgyas rgya mtsho, in his Cha tshad dpe ris of about 1687 (reproduced in "Handbook of Tibetan Iconometry" Brill 2012), lists five of the Indic scripts he gives there (nos. 9, 10, 11, 12 on plates  257-8 and 14 on 264) as NAgari, but with no "deva."  In his Tibetan gloss on the term, he simply calls it "town writing" (grong khyer gyi yi ge). Hodgson, in his 1828 "Notices of the Languages, Literature, and Religion of the Bauddhas...." reproduces a Tibetan manuscript, the model for which I estimate to date to ca. 1700, that similarly uses just NAgari, though Hodgson in his English descriptions gives Deva-n... , no doubt reflecting what was by that time accepted usage among European Indologists. (Our colleague Dragomir Dimitrov also examines these and related materials in his recent, excellent monograph The Buddhist Indus Scripts and Scriptures [Harrassowitz 2020], although I do not believe the question of deva+ is among those that occupy him there.)


Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'??tudes, ??m??rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:08 AM
To: patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari

Dear Patrick,

I too was wondering about this a while back, and received the following two references from Professor Oskar von Hin??ber, which I pass on to the list because they may be of more general interest:


J. F. Blumhardt: Catalogue of the Gujarati and Rajasthani Manuscripts in the India Office Library. London1954, S.6 on the name devanagari. (https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001173373)

Walter H. Maurer: On the name devan??gar?? , JAOS 96.1976, S. 101-104 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/599893)


>From these it appears that the earliest attestation of the name is in 1731, when La Croze<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturin_Veyssi%C3%A8re_La_Croze> mentioned "Devanagari" as an alternative to "Nagari" in a letter to Theophilus Bayer, where he describes it as "the character used by Bramans," in contrast to Balabande (Balabodha), "the character used by the Marathas." (This is presumably printed in La Croze's correspondence, Thesaurus Epistolicus Lacrozianus, but I haven't tracked it down there. Blumhardt has a very brief reference on p. 6.) This is older than the reference Maurer gives, viz. to Halhed's Code of Gentoo Laws in 1776. La Croze must have based his information on books or manuscripts in Berlin.

I have not so far seen any explanation of the name, or any sources (Indian or European) prior to 1731 where it is used.

Andrew

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:45 AM patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com<mailto:psdmccartney at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Friends,

Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when the n??gar?? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan??gar???

The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by the 7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably clear. Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the lipi becomes a deva.

Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.

Thank you.


All the best,

?????????????`???`
Patrick McCartney, PhD
Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University
Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University

Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
 Yogascapes in Japan<http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile> Modern Yoga Research<http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>

bodhap??rvam calema ;-)

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=19R8Cikbi8EiQ5UYFEBkervRVqXt-_Plr&revid=0B0ONiOO-EUx-TW1CYjlVQzhaeDVReUhFRzdubWdBLzRxaTlvPQ]





  *







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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 12:48:06 2021
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 18:18:06 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <CAANHO15HSjPp-4mH4_nQdcnRXTABZgZXFPXxCi_5s5bhKjnhmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9eb0t=rrewR=DwQknw156OuJx9P-BGh4f7a3MrsFPwoBfA@mail.gmail.com>

One related question that may help in getting  a useful answer to this
question is what is the beginning and source of the use of the word nandi
in the name nandinaagarii ?

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 5:39 PM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Patrick,
>
> I too was wondering about this a while back, and received the following
> two references from Professor Oskar von Hin?ber, which I pass on to the
> list because they may be of more general interest:
>
> J. F. Blumhardt: Catalogue of the Gujarati and Rajasthani Manuscripts in
> the India Office Library. London1954, S.6 on the name devanagari. (
> https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001173373)
>
> Walter H. Maurer: On the name devan?gar? , JAOS 96.1976, S. 101-104 (
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/599893)
>
>
> From these it appears that the earliest attestation of the name is in
> 1731, when La Croze
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturin_Veyssi%C3%A8re_La_Croze> mentioned
> "Devanagari" as an alternative to "Nagari" in a letter to Theophilus Bayer,
> where he describes it as "the character used by Bramans," in contrast to
> Balabande (Balabodha), "the character used by the Marathas." (This is
> presumably printed in La Croze's correspondence, *Thesaurus Epistolicus
> Lacrozianus*, but I haven't tracked it down there. Blumhardt has a very
> brief reference on p. 6.) This is older than the reference Maurer gives,
> viz. to Halhed's *Code of Gentoo Laws* in 1776. La Croze must have based
> his information on books or manuscripts in Berlin.
>
> I have not so far seen any explanation of the name, or any sources (Indian
> or European) prior to 1731 where it is used.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:45 AM patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Friends,
>>
>> Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when
>> the n?gar? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan?gar??
>>
>> The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by
>> the 7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably
>> clear. Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the
>> lipi becomes a deva.
>>
>> Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of
>> orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> ????? ???????
>> Patrick McCartney, PhD
>> Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
>> (OICD), Kyoto
>> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
>> Japan
>> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
>> National University
>> Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
>> University
>>
>> Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
>> Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
>>  Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
>> <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>>  Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>>
>> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
>> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)



-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


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From Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at  Tue Mar 30 13:06:20 2021
From: Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at (Eltschinger, Vincent)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 13:06:20 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB43969757615325450AB3FD6BA17D9@DM6PR11MB4396.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3a68c8433ed64c5095f3766431a48689@oeaw.ac.at>

For what it?s worth, again, I remember my first teacher Jacques May warning us against the use of devan?gar?, which, according to him, was ?a modern, sixteenth-century invention?. I do not know what his sources for this were, but knowing his (well founded) veneration towards his Parisian teachers, especially Louis Renou, Jean Filliozat and Paul Mus, it may well have been Filliozat?s remark in the second volume of L?Inde classique, p. 678: ??le terme de n?gar? qu?on remplace commun?ment par celui de devan?gar?, ?citadine des dieux?(?), bien que cette d?signation ne se rencontre pas dans les textes et paraisse n?avoir ?t? r?pandue que par des pandits et surtout des Europ?ens depuis le XVIIe si?cle.?
With kind regards,
Vincent


Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW
Directeur d'?tudes
?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses
Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris
vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr
0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05
________________________________
Von: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M?rz 2021 14:48:40
An: Andrew Ollett; patrick mccartney
Cc: Indology List
Betreff: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari

For what it's worth, the Tibetan regent Sangs rgyas rgya mtsho, in his Cha tshad dpe ris of about 1687 (reproduced in "Handbook of Tibetan Iconometry" Brill 2012), lists five of the Indic scripts he gives there (nos. 9, 10, 11, 12 on plates  257-8 and 14 on 264) as NAgari, but with no "deva."  In his Tibetan gloss on the term, he simply calls it "town writing" (grong khyer gyi yi ge). Hodgson, in his 1828 "Notices of the Languages, Literature, and Religion of the Bauddhas...." reproduces a Tibetan manuscript, the model for which I estimate to date to ca. 1700, that similarly uses just NAgari, though Hodgson in his English descriptions gives Deva-n... , no doubt reflecting what was by that time accepted usage among European Indologists. (Our colleague Dragomir Dimitrov also examines these and related materials in his recent, excellent monograph The Buddhist Indus Scripts and Scriptures [Harrassowitz 2020], although I do not believe the question of deva+ is among those that occupy him there.)


Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:08 AM
To: patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari

Dear Patrick,

I too was wondering about this a while back, and received the following two references from Professor Oskar von Hin?ber, which I pass on to the list because they may be of more general interest:


J. F. Blumhardt: Catalogue of the Gujarati and Rajasthani Manuscripts in the India Office Library. London1954, S.6 on the name devanagari. (https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001173373)

Walter H. Maurer: On the name devan?gar? , JAOS 96.1976, S. 101-104 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/599893)


>From these it appears that the earliest attestation of the name is in 1731, when La Croze<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturin_Veyssi%C3%A8re_La_Croze> mentioned "Devanagari" as an alternative to "Nagari" in a letter to Theophilus Bayer, where he describes it as "the character used by Bramans," in contrast to Balabande (Balabodha), "the character used by the Marathas." (This is presumably printed in La Croze's correspondence, Thesaurus Epistolicus Lacrozianus, but I haven't tracked it down there. Blumhardt has a very brief reference on p. 6.) This is older than the reference Maurer gives, viz. to Halhed's Code of Gentoo Laws in 1776. La Croze must have based his information on books or manuscripts in Berlin.

I have not so far seen any explanation of the name, or any sources (Indian or European) prior to 1731 where it is used.

Andrew

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:45 AM patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com<mailto:psdmccartney at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Friends,

Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when the n?gar? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan?gar??

The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by the 7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably clear. Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the lipi becomes a deva.

Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.

Thank you.


All the best,

?????????????
Patrick McCartney, PhD
Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto
Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan
Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University
Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University

Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
 Yogascapes in Japan<http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia<https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin<https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile> Modern Yoga Research<http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>

bodhap?rvam calema ;-)

[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=19R8Cikbi8EiQ5UYFEBkervRVqXt-_Plr&revid=0B0ONiOO-EUx-TW1CYjlVQzhaeDVReUhFRzdubWdBLzRxaTlvPQ]





  *







_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
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From mmdesh at umich.edu  Tue Mar 30 13:20:14 2021
From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 06:20:14 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <3a68c8433ed64c5095f3766431a48689@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <CAB3-dzd_21mgiAgxUaeygkeMZPmT6BGiAAznEOoSBst3EnTL0w@mail.gmail.com>

For what it's worth, the Lipi??l?sandar?anaparivarta of the Lalitavistara
mentions a Devalipi among the 64 lipis the Bodhisattva knew. Not clear to
me what script it refers to.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]


On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 6:06 AM Eltschinger, Vincent <
Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> wrote:

> For what it?s worth, again, I remember my first teacher Jacques May
> warning us against the use of *devan?gar?*, which, according to him, was
> ?a modern, sixteenth-century invention?. I do not know what his sources
> for this were, but knowing his (well founded) veneration towards his
> Parisian teachers, especially Louis Renou, Jean Filliozat and Paul Mus, it
> may well have been Filliozat?s remark in the second volume of *L?Inde
> classique*, p. 678: ??le terme de *n?gar?* qu?on remplace commun?ment par
> celui de *devan?gar?*, ?citadine des dieux?(?), bien que cette
> d?signation ne se rencontre pas dans les textes et paraisse n?avoir ?t?
> r?pandue que par des pandits et surtout des Europ?ens depuis le XVIIe
> si?cle.?
>
> With kind regards,
> Vincent
>
>
> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW
> Directeur d'?tudes
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses
> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris
> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr
> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05
> ------------------------------
> *Von:* Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 30. M?rz 2021 14:48:40
> *An:* Andrew Ollett; patrick mccartney
> *Cc:* Indology List
> *Betreff:* [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
>
> For what it's worth, the Tibetan regent Sangs rgyas rgya mtsho, in his Cha
> tshad dpe ris of about 1687 (reproduced in "Handbook of Tibetan Iconometry"
> Brill 2012), lists five of the Indic scripts he gives there (nos. 9, 10,
> 11, 12 on plates  257-8 and 14 on 264) as NAgari, but with no "deva."  In
> his Tibetan gloss on the term, he simply calls it "town writing" (grong
> khyer gyi yi ge). Hodgson, in his 1828 "Notices of the Languages,
> Literature, and Religion of the Bauddhas...." reproduces a Tibetan
> manuscript, the model for which I estimate to date to ca. 1700, that
> similarly uses just NAgari, though Hodgson in his English descriptions
> gives Deva-n... , no doubt reflecting what was by that time accepted usage
> among European Indologists. (Our colleague Dragomir Dimitrov also examines
> these and related materials in his recent, excellent monograph The Buddhist
> Indus Scripts and Scriptures [Harrassowitz 2020], although I do not believe
> the question of deva+ is among those that occupy him there.)
>
>
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:08 AM
> *To:* patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
>
> Dear Patrick,
>
> I too was wondering about this a while back, and received the following
> two references from Professor Oskar von Hin?ber, which I pass on to the
> list because they may be of more general interest:
>
> J. F. Blumhardt: Catalogue of the Gujarati and Rajasthani Manuscripts in
> the India Office Library. London1954, S.6 on the name devanagari. (
> https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001173373)
>
> Walter H. Maurer: On the name devan?gar? , JAOS 96.1976, S. 101-104 (
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/599893)
>
>
> From these it appears that the earliest attestation of the name is in
> 1731, when La Croze
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturin_Veyssi%C3%A8re_La_Croze> mentioned
> "Devanagari" as an alternative to "Nagari" in a letter to Theophilus Bayer,
> where he describes it as "the character used by Bramans," in contrast to
> Balabande (Balabodha), "the character used by the Marathas." (This is
> presumably printed in La Croze's correspondence, *Thesaurus Epistolicus
> Lacrozianus*, but I haven't tracked it down there. Blumhardt has a very
> brief reference on p. 6.) This is older than the reference Maurer gives,
> viz. to Halhed's *Code of Gentoo Laws* in 1776. La Croze must have based
> his information on books or manuscripts in Berlin.
>
> I have not so far seen any explanation of the name, or any sources (Indian
> or European) prior to 1731 where it is used.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:45 AM patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when the
> n?gar? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan?gar??
>
> The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by
> the 7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably
> clear. Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the
> lipi becomes a deva.
>
> Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of
> orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> ????? ???????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development
> (OICD), Kyoto
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya,
> Japan
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian
> National University
> Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National
> University
>
> Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
> Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
>  Yogascapes in Japan <http://yogascapes.weebly.com/> Academia
> <https://patrickmccartney.academia.edu/> Linkedin
> <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>
>  Modern Yoga Research <http://www.modernyogaresearch.org/events/>
>
> *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)


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From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 13:21:57 2021
From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 18:51:57 +0530
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <37452.130.133.8.114.1617109031.webmail@webmail.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CAJGj9ebbj2H=g23sWhOeS7RtCG0LuRYF7HK9uL+ZOxap=SDHOA@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarding as I thought it was intended to be sent to the list.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Harry Falk <falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>


long time ago I noted down that devan?gar? is twice mentioned in the
Shahname, early 11th cent., but did not copy the Persian on which this
statement was based.
Maybe someone can do that for all to know?
Harry




-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


Director, Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.


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From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be  Tue Mar 30 14:56:01 2021
From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 16:56:01 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <3a68c8433ed64c5095f3766431a48689@oeaw.ac.at>
Message-ID: <82DC4F6A-5668-4356-8B98-1E8F03A77FA5@uclouvain.be>

See the post by Dominic Goodall,  Indology archiv January 23, 2010, 
https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/GK6BTUCIXMKN3O2BXSUYK6TLN3CIDMIP?hash=GK6BTUCIXMKN3O2BXSUYK6TLN3CIDMIP#GK6BTUCIXMKN3O2BXSUYK6TLN3CIDMIP
on the pre-9th century reference to script made by means of not yet deva- but nandi-city-related letters: 
nandin?garakair var?ai?

> Le 30 mars 2021 ? 15:06, Eltschinger, Vincent <Vincent.Eltschinger at oeaw.ac.at> a ?crit :
> 
> For what it?s worth, again, I remember my first teacher Jacques May warning us against the use ofdevan?gar?, which, according to him, was ?a modern, sixteenth-century invention?. I do not know what his sources for this were, but knowing his (well founded) veneration towards his Parisian teachers, especially Louis Renou, Jean Filliozat and Paul Mus, it may well have been Filliozat?s remark in the second volume ofL?Inde classique, p. 678: ??le terme de n?gar? qu?on remplace commun?ment par celui de devan?gar?, ?citadine des dieux?(?), bien que cette d?signation ne se rencontre pas dans les textes et paraisse n?avoir ?t? r?pandue que par des pandits et surtout des Europ?ens depuis le XVIIe si?cle.?
> With kind regards,
> Vincent
> 
> Vincent Eltschinger, korrespondierendes Mitglied der OeAW
> Directeur d'?tudes 
> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes, Section des sciences religieuses
> Patios Saint-Jacques, 4-14 rue Ferrus - 75014 Paris
> vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr <mailto:vincent.eltschinger at ephe.sorbonne.fr>
> 0033 1 56 61 17 34 / 0033 7 85 86 84 05
> Von: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu <mailto:mkapstei at uchicago.edu>>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 30. M?rz 2021 14:48:40
> An: Andrew Ollett; patrick mccartney
> Cc: Indology List
> Betreff: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
>  
> For what it's worth, the Tibetan regent Sangs rgyas rgya mtsho, in his Cha tshad dpe ris of about 1687 (reproduced in "Handbook of Tibetan Iconometry" Brill 2012), lists five of the Indic scripts he gives there (nos. 9, 10, 11, 12 on plates  257-8 and 14 on 264) as NAgari, but with no "deva."  In his Tibetan gloss on the term, he simply calls it "town writing" (grong khyer gyi yi ge). Hodgson, in his 1828 "Notices of the Languages, Literature, and Religion of the Bauddhas...." reproduces a Tibetan manuscript, the model for which I estimate to date to ca. 1700, that similarly uses just NAgari, though Hodgson in his English descriptions gives Deva-n... , no doubt reflecting what was by that time accepted usage among European Indologists. (Our colleague Dragomir Dimitrov also examines these and related materials in his recent, excellent monograph The Buddhist Indus Scripts and Scriptures [Harrassowitz 2020], although I do not believe the question of deva+ is among those that occupy him there.)
> 
> 
> Matthew
> 
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'?tudes, ?m?rite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> 
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> From: Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com <mailto:andrew.ollett at gmail.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:08 AM
> To: patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com <mailto:psdmccartney at gmail.com>>
> Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
>  
> Dear Patrick,
> 
> I too was wondering about this a while back, and received the following two references from Professor Oskar von Hin?ber, which I pass on to the list because they may be of more general interest:
> 
> J. F. Blumhardt: Catalogue of the Gujarati and Rajasthani Manuscripts in the India Office Library. London1954, S.6 on the name devanagari. (https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001173373 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcatalog.hathitrust.org%2FRecord%2F001173373&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884007357%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=ZmIRVNx%2F3ON95qkpxqFhDh80FVlMOnPsixxqYHPFF7g%3D&reserved=0>)
> Walter H. Maurer: On the name devan?gar? , JAOS 96.1976, S. 101-104 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/599893 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F599893&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884017358%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=U1MkvVql55cgtNFgGudWQ4wbqWLOTUbrltI9h%2F68DQM%3D&reserved=0>) 
> 
> From these it appears that the earliest attestation of the name is in 1731, when La Croze <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaturin_Veyssi%25C3%25A8re_La_Croze&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884017358%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=I7XScaOozRzDbcscuEtJk7nIyAAdJ%2BajnwgP75NCLz4%3D&reserved=0> mentioned "Devanagari" as an alternative to "Nagari" in a letter to Theophilus Bayer, where he describes it as "the character used by Bramans," in contrast to Balabande (Balabodha), "the character used by the Marathas." (This is presumably printed in La Croze's correspondence, Thesaurus Epistolicus Lacrozianus, but I haven't tracked it down there. Blumhardt has a very brief reference on p. 6.) This is older than the reference Maurer gives, viz. to Halhed's Code of Gentoo Laws in 1776. La Croze must have based his information on books or manuscripts in Berlin.
> 
> I have not so far seen any explanation of the name, or any sources (Indian or European) prior to 1731 where it is used.
> Andrew
> 
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:45 AM patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com <mailto:psdmccartney at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> Might anyone be able to pinpoint the general/specific period/text when the n?gar? lipi is divinised and qualified as devan?gar?? 
> 
> The dates of 1st to 4th c. CE for its development and standard usage by the 7th c., with the modern lipi emerging in the 10th c. are reasonably clear. Though, I find it difficult to pinpoint more accurately when the lipi becomes a deva. 
> 
> Are there any discussions of this in primary texts? Some sort of orthographic argument? If you catch my sense.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> ?????????????
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto
> Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan
> Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University
> Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University
> 
> Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp + Line:  +61410644259
> Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap
>  Yogascapes in Japan <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fyogascapes.weebly.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884027352%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=JSwWkuC3%2FMnRG%2F2uVH5OeB5Fb9a4kytEzAkkP4najQY%3D&reserved=0> Academia <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpatrickmccartney.academia.edu%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884027352%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=NCKb%2BhLncFI7JvMgQ6tz0Adt8j0AmI4U7ctUbJhVx7U%3D&reserved=0> Linkedin <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fprofile%2Fview%3Fid%3D241756978%26trk%3Dnav_responsive_tab_profile&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884027352%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=UFxgUOVn2vMWJyNUiYvRAxOjHEmVvpUYPUZRTc1t67I%3D&reserved=0> Modern Yoga Research <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.modernyogaresearch.org%2Fevents%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C5217e32efc1f4ddc0d8108d8f37ca20e%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C637527064884037349%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2f4CDoQg1dcQu6b4%2FdVCpb38ixnj2DT4NBj2AfN%2BhHM%3D&reserved=0>
> 
> bodhap?rvam calema ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-leave at list.indology.info>
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> http://listinfo.indology.info <http://listinfo.indology.info/> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)

???????????????????
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve





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From glhart at berkeley.edu  Tue Mar 30 20:04:08 2021
From: glhart at berkeley.edu (George Hart)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 21 16:04:08 -0400
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
In-Reply-To: <CAJGj9ebbj2H=g23sWhOeS7RtCG0LuRYF7HK9uL+ZOxap=SDHOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <100FB52D-3F16-494E-B50E-21432ADB95DC@berkeley.edu>

The older I get, the more I feel that devanagari got its name because only the gods have eyes sharp enough to read it. I can?t help thinking it?s unfortunate that devanagari became the standard writing system for Sanskrit instead of grantha (which was only ever used for Sanskrit) or one of the other South Indian writing systems. Even Gujarati, which is close to devanagari, is easier to read, with more differentiation between the different ak?aras. I can no longer read my devanagari books, something not true of Tamil. Thank heavens for pdf?s that allow one to increase the size of devanagari printing until it is legible to aging eyes. George Hart

> On Mar 30, 2021, at 9:21 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Forwarding as I thought it was intended to be sent to the list.
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Harry Falk <falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de <mailto:falk at zedat.fu-berlin.de>>
> Date: Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 6:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: deva+nagari
> To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com <mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
> 
> 
> long time ago I noted down that devan?gar? is twice mentioned in the
> Shahname, early 11th cent., but did not copy the Persian on which this
> statement was based.
> Maybe someone can do that for all to know?
> Harry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nagaraj Paturi
>  
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> 
> 
> Director, Indic Academy
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
> BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
> Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>  
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)



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From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu  Wed Mar 31 12:00:51 2021
From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 21 08:00:51 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Agnes_Stache-Weiske_(1962=E2=80=932021)?=
Message-ID: <52300e51-2c97-f520-cd46-96faac3349c5@sas.upenn.edu>

After an eighteenth-month valiant battle with pancreatic cancer, Agnes 
Stache-Weiske passed away peacefully at home this morning, as she 
wished, surrounded by the love of her children and of her many friends. 
We have lost a great scholar, a model collaborator, and a wonderful 
friend. Her memory and her example will live with us.

Rosane Rocher




From pcbisschop at googlemail.com  Wed Mar 31 13:47:42 2021
From: pcbisschop at googlemail.com (peter bisschop)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 21 15:47:42 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Leiden Summer School in Languages and Linguistics 2021
Message-ID: <CACDreE9wDGDzAAxTgwet8Z1MQLgNVjU4Ea8h2bNGiDhghwuYmA@mail.gmail.com>

Dear colleagues,

This year?s Leiden Summer School in Languages and Linguistics will be held
online. The programme and details about registration etc. may be found here:
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/education/study-programmes/summer-schools/summer-school-in-languages-and-linguistics

For any further questions, please write to the email address provided on
the website.

Best regards,
Peter Bisschop

??
Peter C. Bisschop
Professor of Sanskrit and Ancient Cultures of South Asia
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies (LIAS)
P.O. Box 9515 / 2300 RA Leiden / The Netherlands
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/peter-bisschop#tab-1
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/PeterBisschop


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From wujastyk at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 17:42:12 2021
From: wujastyk at gmail.com (wujastyk at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 21 17:42:12 +0000
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <CAB3-dzfn1s28+RY4djUn1iwb==Q-R8Pzei7Wd+ibsF+TCAMFhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7LLmRzTlIYfcBEkVHxSA67RveHQOnxxZlJbUX5Zpnc@list.indology.info>

This is excellent news, and a great example for other libraries asking the same question.


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From james.hartzell at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 19:33:23 2021
From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 21 21:33:23 +0200
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Fwd: Petition: Save the South/Southeast Asia Library at UC Berkeley
In-Reply-To: <7LLmRzTlIYfcBEkVHxSA67RveHQOnxxZlJbUX5Zpnc@list.indology.info>
Message-ID: <CAKA8X40GNstW565gq_98BA9PkZkNfhYFjhE+4aasuK5Lq=muhw@mail.gmail.com>

Any more such petitions, please send them!

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 7:42 PM <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is excellent news, and a great example for other libraries asking the
> same question.
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
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> unsubscribe)



-- 
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebati?n, Spain


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From pf8 at soas.ac.uk  Wed Mar 31 21:00:53 2021
From: pf8 at soas.ac.uk (Peter Flugel)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 21 22:00:53 +0100
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Agnes_Stache-Weiske_(1962=E2=80=932021)?=
In-Reply-To: <52300e51-2c97-f520-cd46-96faac3349c5@sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <4F702ABB-9889-47BA-AE02-0DD4F8D66A02@soas.ac.uk>

Dear Rosane,

Thank you for sharing this shocking information. As you rightly say Agnes was a great scholar and a model collaborator and will be dearly missed. She was probably the only person able to decipher Albrecht Weber?s and other great scholars? handwriting. I am glad that she was at least able to complete many of her ongoing projects over the last years before her illness set in.

Peter

Sent from my iPhone

> On 31 Mar 2021, at 13:01, Rosane Rocher <rrocher at sas.upenn.edu> wrote:
> 
> ?After an eighteenth-month valiant battle with pancreatic cancer, Agnes Stache-Weiske passed away peacefully at home this morning, as she wished, surrounded by the love of her children and of her many friends. We have lost a great scholar, a model collaborator, and a wonderful friend. Her memory and her example will live with us.
> 
> Rosane Rocher
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info
> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)




From avenkatesan at ucdavis.edu  Wed Mar 31 21:59:34 2021
From: avenkatesan at ucdavis.edu (Archana Venkatesan)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 21 14:59:34 -0700
Subject: [INDOLOGY] UC Davis announces Jain Studies prizes
In-Reply-To: <CAKA8X40GNstW565gq_98BA9PkZkNfhYFjhE+4aasuK5Lq=muhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPuuQ6n9AKS072JM03aa3gEHPirqzSAQCbkAA3w8d+zz4_2Eig@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Colleagues,

Professor Lynna Dhanani and I are delighted to announce the establishment
of two graduate prizes on Jainism by the Department of Religious Studies at
UC Davis.

The formal call for submission will come out in Fall 2021 with the
inaugural prize winners announced in Spring 2022. This will be posted on
the department's website and will be shared with the academic community.

You can read about the prizes here
<https://religions.ucdavis.edu/news-and-events/new-jainism-academic-competitions-seek-innovative-ideas-near-and-far>
on
the department's website.

Best,
Archana


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