From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 05:42:34 2021 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 21 14:42:34 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] page scan of a book Message-ID: Dear Friends, If anyone is able to help me I'd appreciate it. I'm trying to find a copy of this book by A.L. Dallapiccola: *South Indian Paintings: a catalogue of the British Museum Collection*, London 2010 I am specifically interested in the comments of acrobats performing on a perilous structure said to be located on p. 182. The closest copy to me is in Tokyo, at the Diet's library, which is a journey unable to be made at this time. It's not urgent. More a curiosity. Nonetheless, it is part of an ongoing project. If you do happen to find yourself serendipitously staring at it in the book shelf of your local library, I would appreciate a scan/clear photograph of the relevant image and description Thank you. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap Yogascapes in Japan Academia Linkedin Modern Yoga Research *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 07:08:24 2021 From: chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com (Deepro Chakraborty) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 21 00:08:24 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request (VOHD Band 2 Teil 19) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Mrinal and Christopher, for your responses. Yeah, it's disappointing that this site doesn't have the 19th part but they have the 20th part. I am looking for the manuscripts of a K?tantra commentary *B?labodhin?. *There are 13 manuscripts listed in the other volumes of the Janert's collection (parts 15-19). I think at least one more manuscript of the B?labodhin? (Serial no. 7288) is listed in the 19th part. On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 9:10 AM Christophe Vielle < christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote: > Indeed, here: > https://rep.adw-goe.de/browse?type=author&value=Ehlers%2C+Gerhard > > the vol. 18 seems the last one available > > Le 31 janv. 2021 ? 05:56, Mrinal Kaul via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> a ?crit : > > Dear Deepro, > > As far as I am aware this particular volume is not available in PDF yet. > All other volumes seem to be available. You might have to take help of > someone who has access to the physical volume/s. That is what I did when I > wanted to make a reference to a particular Ms from this volume. Sorry if > this is not helpful. Best wishes. > > Mrinal > ------ > *Mrinal Kaul * (he, him, his) > Assistant Professor of Indian Philosophy > Department of Humanities and Social Sciences (HSS) > Indian Institute of Technology-Bombay (IIT-B) > Powai, Mumbai 400076, INDIA > Tel +91-820-29-23567 Extn: 23567 > https://mrinalkaul.academia.edu/ > > email: mrinal.kaul at stx.oxon.org > > > On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 at 05:58, Deepro Chakraborty via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> I'm looking for the *19th part* of the VOHD (Verzeichnisch der >> orientalischen Handscriften in Deutschland, Volume 2 (Indian manuscripts): >> >> Gerhard Ehlers: Die ??rad?-Handschriften der Sammlung Janert der >> Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin - Preussischer Kulturbesitz. 2016. (VOHD Band 2, >> *19*) >> >> Does anyone have a pdf of it? >> >> Deepro >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list >> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info >> >> (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list > INDOLOGY at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > > ??????????????????? > Christophe Vielle > Louvain-la-Neuve > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psdmccartney at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 10:33:24 2021 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 21 19:33:24 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] page scan of a book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks to Lubom?r Ondra?ka and Will Sweetman, I have my scan. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap Yogascapes in Japan Academia Linkedin Modern Yoga Research *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) - On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 2:42 PM patrick mccartney wrote: > Dear Friends, > > If anyone is able to help me I'd appreciate it. I'm trying to find a copy > of this book by A.L. Dallapiccola: > > *South Indian Paintings: a catalogue of the British Museum Collection*, > London 2010 > > > I am specifically interested in the comments of acrobats performing on a > perilous structure said to be located on p. 182. > > The closest copy to me is in Tokyo, at the Diet's library, which is a > journey unable to be made at this time. It's not urgent. More a curiosity. > Nonetheless, it is part of an ongoing project. If you do happen to find > yourself serendipitously staring at it in the book shelf of your local > library, I would appreciate a scan/clear photograph of the relevant image > and description > > Thank you. > > > All the best, > > ????? ??????? > Patrick McCartney, PhD > Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development > (OICD), Kyoto > Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, > Japan > Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian > National University > Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National > University > > Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney > Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 > Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap > Yogascapes in Japan Academia > Linkedin > > Modern Yoga Research > > *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcgunkel at gmail.com Tue Feb 2 12:16:44 2021 From: dcgunkel at gmail.com (Dieter Gunkel) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 21 13:16:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] requesting (pages of) Zehnder 1999 Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am currently unable to access Thomas Zehnder's edition of Atharvaveda-Paippal?da, Book 2 (Schulz-Kirchner, 1999). Specifically, I would like to consult 2.16 2.34 2.37 2.68. If anyone is able to provide scans of those, I would be very grateful. Best regards, Dieter Gunkel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au Wed Feb 3 22:22:10 2021 From: McComas.Taylor at anu.edu.au (McComas Taylor) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 21 22:22:10 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Help sought: Laws of Yesterday's Wars - Volume 2 - Sanskritic Culture Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I am passing on this request from my friend and neighbour Samuel White. I hope that some kind scholar will be able to help him out. Yours, McComas ? Captain Samuel White of the Australian Army Legal Corps, has reached out in a hope that there might be a scholar of Sanskrit that would be interested in writing a chapter on warfare, and its restrictions, for a second volume of a book series, 'The Laws of Yesterday's Wars'. Volume 1 is being published by Brill this year, as part of their International Humanitarian Law series: https://brill.com/view/serial/IHUL. Part of his role in the Australian Army Legal Corps allows him to observe States dismissing the Law of Armed Conflict, as found within the Geneva Conventions, on the basis that it is inherently European. The book series seeks to answer the question ?how international is international humanitarian law?? To do so, he is seeking a breath of cultures and their cultural restrictions, in order to try assess whether there are any restrictions that are common to all cultures. This, in turn, can be used to try shape customary international law. The chapters, whilst stand alone, all follow the same structural format, first exploring the culture in question and their system of governance, before addressing the first of two-key question: what was their specific goal of warfare? The second key question is how did they regulate themselves? Each volume is intended to be 10 chapters. Volume 1 covered the following: * Indigenous Australians * Greeks * Vikings * Maori * Medieval Europe * Elizabethan Pirates and Privateers * Aztecs * Samurai * Renaissance Mercenary Bands (Free Companies) * American Civil War As you can see, there is much growth for Volume 2, which currently has chapters being written on warfare in Carthage, Tanzania, Mongolia, Han China, Cheroke, and Papua New Guinea. Although it is law focused, it is just legal history. The first drafts of the chapter would be due around December 2021; the final draft around March 2022, for publication in July 2022. This gives a fair bit of time to research more fully into the area. If you know of anyone who might be interested, I would be indebted it if you might send this email forward to them. More than happy to have a chat about it over a coffe, or I can be reached on the following accounts to discuss the matter further: samuel.white at adelaide.edu.au samuel.white at defence.gov.au Or via mobile on +61 428 888 473. Samuel White [cid:bcca9e04-efd6-43ea-8acb-a6a72201bd6e] McComas Taylor Associate Professor Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University WSC Website| McC Website Zoom: https://tinyurl.com/p01tig8k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ericmgurevitch at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 23:22:36 2021 From: ericmgurevitch at gmail.com (Eric Gurevitch) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 21 17:22:36 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF Request - Mysore ORI Sanskrit Descriptive Catalogue vol. 13 Message-ID: Dear Scholars, Does anybody have a soft copy of vol. 13 of the *Descriptive Catalogue of the Sanskrit Manuscripts, Oriental Research Institute, Mysore*? It was prepared under the directorship of H. P. Malledevaru in 1986 I believe, and the particular volume is not included in the collections of most North American libraries. All the best, Eric -- Eric Gurevitch PhD Candidate, South Asian Languages and Civilizations and Committee on Conceptual and Historical Studies of Science University of Chicago gurevitch at uchicago.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Wed Feb 3 23:26:56 2021 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 21 18:26:56 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9A=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=85g=C4=81raprak=C4=81=C5=9Ba_transcription=3F?= Message-ID: <616F70E0-8992-482E-A77E-272304EB67FC@gmail.com> Dear list members, I have searched online in vain for a machine readable transcription of any part of Bhojar?ja?s ???g?raprak??a. Can anyone share a transcription of this text or any part of it? I am only interested in transcriptions as I have both pdfs and the physical books. Thank you. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.sarbacker at oregonstate.edu Thu Feb 4 05:15:44 2021 From: stuart.sarbacker at oregonstate.edu (Stuart Ray Sarbacker) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 21 21:15:44 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] New Book: Tracing the Path of Yoga Message-ID: Esteemed Colleagues, I?m happy to announce the publication of my new book, Tracing the Path of Yoga: The History and Philosophy of Indian Mind-Body Discipline (SUNY Press: 2021). It has been a labor of love and it?s great to finally send it out into the world. http://www.sunypress.edu/p-6988-tracing-the-path-of-yoga.aspx If you are interested, you may use the code ZAPE21 on the SUNY website to receive a 50% discount on the hardcover. The code will be good through February 16th, 2021. It?s available for Kindle on Amazon and will be released as a more affordable paperback this summer. Needless to say, I couldn?t have put this together without relying on the excellent work (and encouragement) of so many of you. I hope that some may find it of interest/use! Best Wishes, Stuart ___ Stuart Ray Sarbacker Associate Professor School of History, Philosophy, and Religion Oregon State University http://liberalarts.oregonstate.edu/users/stuart-ray-sarbacker https://www.shin-ibs.edu/luce/sarbacker/ https://oregonstate.academia.edu/StuartSarbacker -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vglyssenko at yandex.ru Thu Feb 4 10:29:38 2021 From: vglyssenko at yandex.ru (Viktoria Lysenko) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 21 13:29:38 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A PDF request from Victoria Lysenko Message-ID: <470641612434185@mail.yandex.ru> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RDavidson at fairfield.edu Thu Feb 4 14:02:45 2021 From: RDavidson at fairfield.edu (Davidson, Ronald M.) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 21 14:02:45 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [External] New Book: Tracing the Path of Yoga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5132662D-493F-4384-B9D0-12E257882890@fairfield.edu> Congratulations, Stuart! Best wishes, Ron ______________________________________________ Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D. Professor of Religious Studies Co-director, Digital Humanities Consortium 345 Donnarumma Hall Fairfield University, 1073 North Benson Road Fairfield CT 06824-5195, U.S.A. 203-254-4000 x 2489 From: Stuart Ray Sarbacker Date: Thursday, February 4, 2021 at 12:16 AM To: "indology at list.indology.info" Subject: [External] [INDOLOGY] New Book: Tracing the Path of Yoga Esteemed Colleagues, I?m happy to announce the publication of my new book, Tracing the Path of Yoga: The History and Philosophy of Indian Mind-Body Discipline (SUNY Press: 2021). It has been a labor of love and it?s great to finally send it out into the world. http://www.sunypress.edu/p-6988-tracing-the-path-of-yoga.aspx If you are interested, you may use the code ZAPE21 on the SUNY website to receive a 50% discount on the hardcover. The code will be good through February 16th, 2021. It?s available for Kindle on Amazon and will be released as a more affordable paperback this summer. Needless to say, I couldn?t have put this together without relying on the excellent work (and encouragement) of so many of you. I hope that some may find it of interest/use! Best Wishes, Stuart ___ Stuart Ray Sarbacker Associate Professor School of History, Philosophy, and Religion Oregon State University http://liberalarts.oregonstate.edu/users/stuart-ray-sarbacker https://www.shin-ibs.edu/luce/sarbacker/ https://oregonstate.academia.edu/StuartSarbacker From disimone at alumni.stanford.edu Thu Feb 4 16:34:46 2021 From: disimone at alumni.stanford.edu (Charles DiSimone) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 21 17:34:46 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Ghent Center for Buddhist Studies Spring Lecture Series Message-ID: Dear friends, With all apologies for any cross posting. Several of the coming talks below may be of interest to the list. I am pleased to announce the upcoming Ghent Center for Buddhist Studies Spring Lecture Series (Permanent Training in Buddhist Studies (PTBS)) generously sponsored by the Tianzhu Foundation. All lectures will be held remotely over Zoom. Interested parties are welcome to attend the series or individual talks. The lectures start at 7:00 pm (CET), except the lecture by Pei-ying Lin which starts at 12:00 pm. March 9: Anna Andreeva (Uni Heidelberg & Ghent University) ?Buddhism and Women's Health in Medieval Japan? March 16: Matthew Orsborn (Oxford University) ?Monastic Training and Education in Contemporary Taiwanese Buddhism." March 23: Lewis Doney (Ruhr-Universit?t Bochum) ?Incantations and Empire: A study of some Tibetan dh?ra?? texts from Dunhuang" March 30: Matthew Milligan (Trinity University) ?Economic Class in Early South Asian Buddhism: Perspectives from Epigraphy and the Divy?vad?na" April 20: Lina Verchery (University of Otago) ?The Personal and the Planetary: Cosmological Thought and the Moral Imagination in Everyday Chinese Buddhist Monastic Life? April 30: Pei-ying Lin (Fu Jen Catholic University) ?On the Materiality and Cultural Identity of the Tang Dynasty: East Asian Buddhist Networks behind a Royal Portrait? (this lecture is kindly sponsored by the National Taiwan Library) May 4: Serena Saccone (Istituto Universitario Orientale, Napoli & IKGA, ?AW) ?One Flew Over the Nest: an Externalist Among Pram??av?dins? May 11: Ingo Strauch (University of Lausanne) ?Newly discovered ??rad? documents from a private collection in the UK? We have assembled a good variety of topics so there should be something of interest for many. As each talk approaches, a brief abstract will be circulated beforehand with details. Registration is required to attend any talks. To register, please write to the following address expressing the date you would like to attend: CBS at ugent.be With my kind regards, Charles DiSimone Dr. Charles DiSimone Department of Languages and Cultures Ghent University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 13:03:07 2021 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 21 14:03:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Very sad news: David Seyfort Ruegg Message-ID: Dear Friends I am afraid that I do not have the details we would perhaps like to know, such as the exact date, but the bare news is that at the age of 89, David Seyfort Ruegg has passed away in London. The immediate cause was Covid. I hope and expect that those with more detailed information will more fully inform us in the coming days. I know nothing of any possible funeral or memorial arrangements. In sadness, Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 18:29:21 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (wujastyk at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 21 18:29:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Very sad news: David Seyfort Ruegg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am very sad to hear about Prof. Ruegg, and especially that it was Covid. He made so many critical interventions in Indological studies and his works will always be important. My condolences to everyone who knew him. In sadness, Dominik Wujastyk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emstern1948 at gmail.com Fri Feb 5 18:40:39 2021 From: emstern1948 at gmail.com (Elliot Stern) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 21 13:40:39 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_=C5=9A=E1=B9=9B=E1=B9=85g=C4=81raprak=C4=81=C5=9Ba_transcription=3F?= Message-ID: <1E944DBE-FE32-462A-98CF-72C94ABC4EEA@gmail.com> I?d like to thank Patricia Sauthoff, Michael Slouber, Victor Davella and Tim Cahill for their responses to my request. I now have a good array of transcriptions to work with. As always, this list rocks. Elliot Dear list members, I have searched online in vain for a machine readable transcription of any part of Bhojar?ja?s ???g?raprak??a. Can anyone share a transcription of this text or any part of it? I am only interested in transcriptions as I have both pdfs and the physical books. Thank you. Elliot M. Stern 552 South 48th Street Philadelphia, PA 19143-2029 emstern1948 at gmail.com 267-240-8418 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Fri Feb 5 23:29:55 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 21 17:29:55 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__The_dynasty_of_Purodha=E1=B8=A5pati_in_the_Tacc=C5=ABr_inscription?= In-Reply-To: <80922EED-1CE0-4A10-9AF4-4160AAEF7110.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <80922EED-1CE0-4A10-9AF4-4160AAEF7110@aol.com> In the paper, ?Tre?sors ine?dits du pays tamoul : chronique des e?tudes pallava II Vestiges pallava autour de Maha?balipuram et a? Taccu?r,? (https://www.academia.edu/5409443/2008_Tr?sors_in?dits_du_pays_tamoul_chronique_des_?tudes_pallava_II_Vestiges_pallava_autour_de_Mah?balipuram_et_?_Tacc?r) Emmanuel Francis, Vale?rie Gillet, and Charlotte Schmid say the following: ?La dynastie de Purodhah?pati, l?e?poux de Sati?, n?est pas pre?cise?e dans l?inscription de Taccu?r. Peut-e?tre s?agit-il d?un roitelet local ? Son nom ? ou son titre ?, qui signifie ? le mai?tre des (ou : de son) purohita ?, pourrait surprendre pour un roi, car c?est le chapelain qui est cense? guider le roi. Mais c?est la? le point de vue brahmanique et nous ne sommes gue?re e?tonne?s qu?un roi, en tant que patron et donateur, se pose hie?rarchi- quement au-dessus de son chapelain. Un tel nom s?inscrit parfaitement dans la ligne ide?ologique des Pallava, qui pre?tendent au statut de brahmanes-guerriers et se posent ainsi comme supe?rieurs aux brahmanes (cf. E. Francis, a? parai?tre).? With respect to the question of which dynasty Purodhah?pati belonged to, here is something to consider. Among the three Tamil dynasties, three kings of the Irumpo?ai branch of the C?ras have been praised for their superiority in knowledge over their priests. Patikams 70 and 90 of the Pati??uppatu as well as Pati??uppatu 74 do this. ?Particularly, Pati??uppatu 74 mentions how the poet was wonderstruck when the king advised the priest to go to perform austerities. Could this dynasty that ruled from Karuv?r (modern Kar?r) be the one mentioned in the inscription? Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Sat Feb 6 01:17:48 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 21 19:17:48 -0600 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_The_dynasty_of_Purodha=E1=B8=A5pati_in_the_Tacc=C5=ABr_inscription?= In-Reply-To: <80922EED-1CE0-4A10-9AF4-4160AAEF7110@aol.com> Message-ID: Please correct ?Patikams 70 and 90? to be ?Patikams 7 and 9?. I regret the error. Regards, Palaniappan From: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappant Date: Friday, February 5, 2021 at 5:30 PM To: Indology List Subject: The dynasty of Purodha?pati in the Tacc?r inscription In the paper, ?Tre?sors ine?dits du pays tamoul : chronique des e?tudes pallava II Vestiges pallava autour de Maha?balipuram et a? Taccu?r,? (https://www.academia.edu/5409443/2008_Tr?sors_in?dits_du_pays_tamoul_chronique_des_?tudes_pallava_II_Vestiges_pallava_autour_de_Mah?balipuram_et_?_Tacc?r) Emmanuel Francis, Vale?rie Gillet, and Charlotte Schmid say the following: ?La dynastie de Purodhah?pati, l?e?poux de Sati?, n?est pas pre?cise?e dans l?inscription de Taccu?r. Peut-e?tre s?agit-il d?un roitelet local ? Son nom ? ou son titre ?, qui signifie ? le mai?tre des (ou : de son) purohita ?, pourrait surprendre pour un roi, car c?est le chapelain qui est cense? guider le roi. Mais c?est la? le point de vue brahmanique et nous ne sommes gue?re e?tonne?s qu?un roi, en tant que patron et donateur, se pose hie?rarchi- quement au-dessus de son chapelain. Un tel nom s?inscrit parfaitement dans la ligne ide?ologique des Pallava, qui pre?tendent au statut de brahmanes-guerriers et se posent ainsi comme supe?rieurs aux brahmanes (cf. E. Francis, a? parai?tre).? With respect to the question of which dynasty Purodhah?pati belonged to, here is something to consider. Among the three Tamil dynasties, three kings of the Irumpo?ai branch of the C?ras have been praised for their superiority in knowledge over their priests. Patikams 70 and 90 of the Pati??uppatu as well as Pati??uppatu 74 do this. Particularly, Pati??uppatu 74 mentions how the poet was wonderstruck when the king advised the priest to go to perform austerities. Could this dynasty that ruled from Karuv?r (modern Kar?r) be the one mentioned in the inscription? Regards, Palaniappan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 03:32:22 2021 From: chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com (Deepro Chakraborty) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 21 20:32:22 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: PDF request (VOHD Band 2 Teil 19) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm very grateful to Professor Christophe Vielle for sending me the relevant pages from this catalogue. On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:27 PM Deepro Chakraborty < chakrabortydeepro at gmail.com> wrote: > I'm looking for the *19th part* of the VOHD (Verzeichnisch der > orientalischen Handscriften in Deutschland, Volume 2 (Indian manuscripts): > > Gerhard Ehlers: Die ??rad?-Handschriften der Sammlung Janert der > Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin - Preussischer Kulturbesitz. 2016. (VOHD Band 2, > *19*) > > Does anyone have a pdf of it? > > Deepro > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joduquette at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 11:04:34 2021 From: joduquette at gmail.com (Jonathan Duquette) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 21 11:04:34 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_New_book_on_Appaya_D=C4=ABk=E1=B9=A3ita?= Message-ID: ** Apologies for cross-posting ** Dear Colleagues, I am delighted to announce the publication of my new book: *Defending God in Sixteenth-Century India: The ?aiva Oeuvre of Appaya D?k?ita *. The book is published in the Oxford Oriental Monographs series (OUP). Best wishes, Jonathan *** *Defending God in Sixteenth-Century India: The ?aiva Oeuvre of Appaya D?k?ita* This book is the first in-depth study of the ?aiva oeuvre of the celebrated polymath Appaya D?k?ita (1520-1593). Jonathan Duquette documents the rise to prominence and scholarly reception of ?iv?dvaita Ved?nta, a Sanskrit-language school of philosophical theology which Appaya single-handedly established, thus securing his reputation as a legendary advocate of ?aiva religion in early modern India. Based to a large extent on hitherto unstudied primary sources in Sanskrit, Duquette offers new insights on Appaya's early polemical works and main source of ?iv?dvaita exegesis, ?r?ka??ha's *Brahmam?m?ms?bh??ya*; identifies Appaya's key intellectual influences and opponents in his reconstruction of ?r?ka??ha's theology; and highlights some of the key arguments and strategies he used to make his ambitious project a success. Centred on his magnum opus of ?iv?dvaita Ved?nta, the *?iv?rkamanid?pik?*, this book demonstrates that Appaya's ?aiva oeuvre was mainly directed against Vi?i?t?dvaita Ved?nta, the dominant Vai??ava school of philosophical theology in his time and place. A far-reaching study of the challenges of Indian theism, this book opens up new possibilities for our understanding of religious debates and polemics in early modern India as seen through the lenses of one of its most important intellectuals. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From szantopeterdaniel at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 12:26:06 2021 From: szantopeterdaniel at gmail.com (=?utf-8?B?UMOpdGVyLUTDoW5pZWwgU3rDoW50w7M=?=) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 21 14:26:06 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for Basu (1989) thesis Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Might anyone have a pdf of a Bonn PhD thesis by Ratna Basu (1989) called: Eine literatur-kritische Studie zu ?rya??ras J?takam?l? zusammen mit einer kritischen Edition der anonymen J?takam?l???k? und einer kritischen Edition der J?takam?l?pa?jik? des V?ryasi?ha? I'd be very grateful. Best wishes, Peter Szanto -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Sat Feb 6 12:50:53 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 21 12:50:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Very sad news: David Seyfort Ruegg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <74447922059145e78dc580ca9f4c165e@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear List members, In 1970, still at secondary school, I went to the Kern Institute in search of more information about the study of indology. The Kern Institute and its library were at the back of the Museum of Ethnology. There was no doorbell. So I knocked, and nothing happened, So I knocked again, and finally the door was opened by a friendly man, who showed me the way to the librarian-secretary (at that time Mw. de Beurs). The friendly man returned to his place at the table in the library, which happened to be close to the door. Later I was to learn that he was Seyfort Ruegg. He was a mystery figure. At least, to me as a student his association with the Kern Institute was not clear, and in the course of my first year he disappeared altogether ? and so did his large car from the parking place, a Jaguar or a Bentley, I do not remember. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Jonathan Silk Verzonden: vrijdag 5 februari 2021 14:03 Aan: Indology Onderwerp: [INDOLOGY] Very sad news: David Seyfort Ruegg Dear Friends I am afraid that I do not have the details we would perhaps like to know, such as the exact date, but the bare news is that at the age of 89, David Seyfort Ruegg has passed away in London. The immediate cause was Covid. I hope and expect that those with more detailed information will more fully inform us in the coming days. I know nothing of any possible funeral or memorial arrangements. In sadness, Jonathan -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de Sat Feb 6 12:52:46 2021 From: steiner at staff.uni-marburg.de (Roland Steiner) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 21 13:52:46 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Request for Basu (1989) thesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210206135246.Horde.NR0dY-2MTqBmo4_uyNa_2dr@home.staff.uni-marburg.de> Dear Peter, You can download the file here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlo5omusc0zzphy/Basu_1989_Jatakamala%2BTika%2BPanjika.PDF?dl=0 Best wishes, Roland From dcgunkel at gmail.com Sat Feb 6 14:53:00 2021 From: dcgunkel at gmail.com (Dieter Gunkel) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 21 15:53:00 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: requesting (pages of) Zehnder 1999 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I've received scans of the relevant pages. All the best, Dieter On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 1:16 PM Dieter Gunkel wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I am currently unable to access Thomas Zehnder's edition of > Atharvaveda-Paippal?da, Book 2 (Schulz-Kirchner, 1999). Specifically, I > would like to consult > > 2.16 > 2.34 > 2.37 > 2.68. > > If anyone is able to provide scans of those, I would be very grateful. > > Best regards, > > Dieter Gunkel > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Sat Feb 6 15:29:18 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 21 10:29:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Very sad news: David Seyfort Ruegg In-Reply-To: <74447922059145e78dc580ca9f4c165e@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <0a71077a-14d4-0789-8ae5-2fcedfd935ff@sas.upenn.edu> I remember David Seyfort Ruegg and his mother dropping in at our house in Brussels on his way from Paris to Leiden in 1965 or so. He did not say that he was about to take an appointment in Leiden. He struck us, besides being a serious scholar, like a gentlemen of means ready to pitch a comfortable tent at whatever place and institution would best serve his research at a particular time. Rosane Rocher ?For there is always light/ if only we?re brave enough to see it/ if only we?re brave enough to be it? Amanda Gorman, ?The hill we climb? On 2/6/21 7:50 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Dear List members, > > In 1970, still at secondary school, I went to the Kern Institute in > search of more information about the study of indology. The Kern > Institute and its library?were at the back of the Museum of Ethnology. > There was no doorbell. So I knocked, and nothing happened, So I > knocked again, and finally the door was opened by a friendly man, who > showed me the way to the librarian-secretary (at that time?Mw. de > Beurs). The friendly man returned to his place at the table in the > library, which happened to be close to the door. Later I was to learn > that he was Seyfort Ruegg. He was a mystery figure. At least, to me as > a student his association with the Kern Institute was not clear, and > in the course of my first year he disappeared altogether ? and so did > his large car from the parking place, a Jaguar or a Bentley, I do not > remember. > > Herman > > > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Van:* Jonathan Silk > *Verzonden:* vrijdag 5 februari 2021 14:03 > *Aan:* Indology > *Onderwerp:* [INDOLOGY] Very sad news: David Seyfort Ruegg > > Dear Friends > I am afraid that I do not have the details we would perhaps like to > know, such as the exact date, but the bare news is that at the age of > 89, David Seyfort Ruegg has passed away in London. The immediate cause > was Covid. > I hope and expect that those with more detailed information will more > fully inform us in the coming days. I know nothing of any possible > funeral or memorial arrangements. > > In sadness, > Jonathan > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it Sun Feb 7 09:20:38 2021 From: tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it (tiziana.lorenzetti at libero.it) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 10:20:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] sad news, prof D.N. Jha' demise Message-ID: <2039342930.79805.1612689638405@mail1.libero.it> Dear All, With great sadness we inform you that the renowned Professor Dwijendra Narayan Jha passed away peacefully at home, Delhi, on 4 February 2021. A former professor at the Dpt. of History, Delhi University, and Secretary of the Indian History Congress for many years, Prof. Jha was one of India?s most brilliant and respected historians. His scholarship is reflected in hundreds of books and articles which, not rarely, underline what he saw as distortions of Indian history. For instance, he dispelled the myth of ?religious tolerance? in ancient India, dismantled the hypothesis whereby the ?ryans would be amongst the original autochthonous peoples of the subcontinent (an idea that Jha considered an ?ideological propaganda?) and demonstrated that the sacred status of the cow was a much later development than is frequently claimed. Such arguments (well documented on the grounds of meticulous textual and historical research), naturally, ended up alienating many factions, and he faced a firestorm of hostility in his lifetime. As The Indian Express wrote (5.2.2021): ?Jha?s works and words played out in the battlefield of politics in modern India?. His extraordinary learning went hand in hand with rare human qualities: generosity, kindness, humility. We shall never forget his exceptional figure and, since behind a great man there is often a great woman, here, I also wish to thank his wife Mrs. Rajarani Jha whose care, patience and lifelong support of her husband was what, ultimately, made him the Prof. Jha we all have loved and admired. Tiziana Lorenzetti -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 17:31:00 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 10:31:00 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Upgrade of the Mailman software Message-ID: Dear friends, The INDOLOGY mail forum runs on a piece of software called Mailman. Our installation was recently upgraded from version 2 to version 3 . At the same time, our service provider has changed the interfaces for registering and controlling our accounts and for consulting the archive. The links on the main indology website, INDOLOGY.info were updated several days ago; if you find any errors there, please inform the INDOLOGY committee . The new interface for managing your account is here: - https://list.indology.info/list/indology.list.indology.info The software interface is called "Affinity." Your INDOLOGY subscription will work as always without taking any action. But if you would like to change the settings of your subscription, you need to "register." The procedure is simple and self-evident. The new interface for the INDOLOGY Archive is now here: - https://list.indology.info/empathy The software is called "Empathy." As before, the archive is open to the public. Please let the committee (not me!) know if you discover any bugs. Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY list committee member -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpo at austin.utexas.edu Sun Feb 7 18:48:06 2021 From: jpo at austin.utexas.edu (Olivelle, J P) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 18:48:06 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Upgrade of the Mailman software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Dominik: With the increased charges for hosting Indology, will you be able to set up a place where members can contribute to the expenses? I know a while back there was a discussion on this issue. It is so unfair that you or a small group have to shoulder the financial burden. Thanks. Patrick On Feb 7, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: Dear friends, The INDOLOGY mail forum runs on a piece of software called Mailman. Our installation was recently upgraded from version 2 to version 3. At the same time, our service provider has changed the interfaces for registering and controlling our accounts and for consulting the archive. The links on the main indology website, INDOLOGY.info were updated several days ago; if you find any errors there, please inform the INDOLOGY committee. The new interface for managing your account is here: * https://list.indology.info/list/indology.list.indology.info The software interface is called "Affinity." Your INDOLOGY subscription will work as always without taking any action. But if you would like to change the settings of your subscription, you need to "register." The procedure is simple and self-evident. The new interface for the INDOLOGY Archive is now here: * https://list.indology.info/empathy The software is called "Empathy." As before, the archive is open to the public. Please let the committee (not me!) know if you discover any bugs. Best wishes, Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY list committee member _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) This message is from an external sender. Learn more about why this << matters at https://links.utexas.edu/rtyclf. << -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Sun Feb 7 19:19:03 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 12:19:03 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Upgrade of the Mailman software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Patrick, it's very kind of you to think of this aspect. In fact, our host company, EMWD.com, offered us this upgrade free of charge. It's still quite a modest quarterly charge and I can pay it easily. As before, I would rather just pay it and not have the hassle associated with fundraising. But thank you very much indeed for thinking of it! Dominik On Sun, 7 Feb 2021 at 11:48, Olivelle, J P wrote: > Dear Dominik: > > With the increased charges for hosting Indology, will you be able to set > up a place where members can contribute to the expenses? I know a while > back there was a discussion on this issue. It is so unfair that you or a > small group have to shoulder the financial burden. Thanks. > > Patrick > > > > > On Feb 7, 2021, at 11:31 AM, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > Dear friends, > > The INDOLOGY mail forum runs on a piece of software called Mailman. Our > installation was recently upgraded from version 2 to version 3 > . > At the same time, our service provider has changed the interfaces for > registering and controlling our accounts and for consulting the archive. > > The links on the main indology website, INDOLOGY.info > were updated several days ago; if you find any > errors there, please inform the INDOLOGY committee > . > > The new interface for managing your account is here: > > - https://list.indology.info/list/indology.list.indology.info > > The software interface is called "Affinity." Your INDOLOGY subscription > will work as always without taking any action. But if you would like to > change the settings of your subscription, you need to "register." The > procedure is simple and self-evident. > > The new interface for the INDOLOGY Archive is now here: > > - https://list.indology.info/empathy > > The software is called "Empathy." As before, the archive is open to the > public. > > Please let the committee (not me!) > know if you discover any bugs. > > Best wishes, > Dominik Wujastyk > INDOLOGY list committee member > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > > This message is from an external sender. Learn more about why this << > matters at https://links.utexas.edu/rtyclf. << > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msa2b at virginia.edu Sun Feb 7 20:12:27 2021 From: msa2b at virginia.edu (Allen, Michael S (msa2b)) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 20:12:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CFP - Hindu Philosophy Unit (American Academy of Religion) Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, The Hindu Philosophy unit of the American Academy of Religion is pleased to invite proposals for the 2021 Annual Meeting in San Antonio, Texas, November 20-23. The deadline for submissions is 5pm EST on Monday, March 1. For more information, please see below, or visit . Best wishes, Michael S. Allen, University of Virginia Parimal G. Patil, Harvard University Chairs, Hindu Philosophy Unit ---------------------------------------- Call for Papers We invite proposals for two sessions to be held at this year?s Annual Meeting: 1. Philosophical Roundtable. This experimental format will bring together several participants to discuss either a single argument or a closely related series of arguments from a single author. This year we will focus on Udayana?s arguments against Buddhist idealism, found in the ?tma-tattva-viveka, section 2 (b?hy?rtha-bha?ga-v?da, ?On the [Buddhist] Refutation of External Objects?). The goal is not to have traditional presentations but to create a space for lively and rigorous discussion. In lieu of traditional paper proposals, therefore, we instead invite prospective participants to write a short philosophical analysis either of the section as a whole or a single argument from the section. One might, for example, criticize Udayana?s argument, or extend it, or defend it against further objections, or note something surprising in the argument, or simply assess its strengths and weaknesses. (Note that the ?tma-tattva-viveka has been edited and translated by N.S. Dravid, Shimla: Indian Institute of Advanced Study, 1995. Additional Sanskrit editions are readily available through the Internet Archive. Selections have also been translated in the appendix to Kisor Kumar Chakrabarti?s Classical Indian Philosophy of Mind, Albany: SUNY, 1999.) 2. Traditional Papers Session. For this session we are looking for individual paper proposals (rather than full panel proposals). We are open to a wide range of topics related to Hindu philosophy. Possible topics include but are by no means limited to: Philosophy of Language, Philosophy of Materiality, Discourses of Ultimate Reality, Philosophy and Pedagogy, Lived Philosophy, ?Philosophy? as a Category, Stock Examples, Philosophy and Literature, and Philosophy in Vernacular Texts. Proposals should be submitted through AAR?s INSPIRE system (https://aar-conference.imis-inspire.com/a/organizations/main/home). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 01:04:45 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 18:04:45 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Upgrade of the Mailman software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We've noticed that some posts to the INDOLOGY forum are not getting properly archived; in the archive, the messages are blank. After some investigation, it seems that this applies to messages that are sent "in HTML format only". If you can, please check that your email program sends messages "in HTML and plain text". That will ensure that your messages get archived. It's also the best way to send email. There should always be a "plain" text version. This problem has surfaced now, but isn't new. It was the case for messages during past years too. So there are some blank entries in the archive, unfortunately. Best, Dominik Wujastyk INDOLOGY list committee member -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 8 04:27:15 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 21 20:27:15 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question Message-ID: P??ini refers to the formation *yavan?n? *which K?ty?yana interprets as a reference to the script of the Yavanas. Assuming that P??ini belongs to the pre-Alexander period, where would this familiarity with the Yavana script come from? I read the following information in Wiki on Bactria: "Under Persian rule, many Greeks were deported to Bactria, so that their communities and language became common in the area. During the reign of Darius I , the inhabitants of the Greek city of Barca , in Cyrenaica , were deported to Bactria for refusing to surrender assassins.[10] In addition, Xerxes also settled the "Branchidae" in Bactria; they were the descendants of Greek priests who had once lived near Didyma (western Asia Minor) and betrayed the temple to him.[11] Herodotus also records a Persian commander threatening to enslave daughters of the revolting Ionians and send them to Bactria.[12] Persia subsequently conscripted Greek men from these settlements in Bactria into their military, as did Alexander later.[13] " Is this something one could consider for possible connection of P??ini's awareness of the Yavana script? Where can I find some more detailed references to Yavanas in the regions of Bactria and Gandhara before Alexander. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Mon Feb 8 04:33:59 2021 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 21 14:33:59 +1000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe the best source would probably be Karttunen's monograph on the Yavanas: https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184/199 Kind regards, Antonio On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 2:28 PM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > P??ini refers to the formation *yavan?n? *which K?ty?yana interprets as a > reference to the script of the Yavanas. Assuming that P??ini belongs to > the pre-Alexander period, where would this familiarity with the Yavana > script come from? I read the following information in Wiki on Bactria: > > "Under Persian rule, many Greeks were deported to Bactria, so that their > communities and language became common in the area. During the reign of Darius > I , the inhabitants of the Greek > city of Barca , in > Cyrenaica , were deported to > Bactria for refusing to surrender assassins.[10] > In addition, Xerxes > also settled the "Branchidae" in Bactria; they were the descendants of > Greek priests who had once lived near Didyma > (western Asia Minor) and betrayed > the temple to him.[11] > Herodotus also > records a Persian commander threatening to enslave daughters of the revolting > Ionians and send them to > Bactria.[12] Persia > subsequently conscripted Greek men from these settlements in Bactria into > their military, as did Alexander later.[13] > " > > Is this something one could consider for possible connection of P??ini's > awareness of the Yavana script? Where can I find some more detailed > references to Yavanas in the regions of Bactria and Gandhara before > Alexander. > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 8 11:08:53 2021 From: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk (Camillo Formigatti) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 21 11:08:53 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question In-Reply-To: <161277300329.1074.11561439846524941022@prod2.harmonylists.io> Message-ID: Dear Madhav, You could also turn to Harry Falk's Schrift im alten Indien, and Richard Salomon's Indian Epigraphy, where you'll find a thorough discussion of the primary sources. Best wishes, Camillo ________________________________ Dr Camillo A. Formigatti Information Analyst ? FAMOUS Project Bodleian Libraries The Weston Library Broad Street, Oxford OX1 3BG Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk GROW YOUR MIND in Oxford University?s Gardens, Libraries and Museums www.mindgrowing.org ________________________________ From: indology-request at list.indology.info Sent: Monday, February 8, 2021 8:30 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 97, Issue 9 Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to indology at list.indology.info To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to indology-request at list.indology.info You can reach the person managing the list at indology-owner at list.indology.info When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harshadehejia at hotmail.com Mon Feb 8 13:23:55 2021 From: harshadehejia at hotmail.com (Harsha Dehejia) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 21 13:23:55 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Krishna Deva Raya of Hampi Message-ID: Friends: This is a question for our Kannada knowing/speaking friends. How would one address Krishnadeva Raya of Hampi if one were in his court today? Kind regards, Harsha Prof. Harsha V. Dehejia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 8 13:33:36 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 21 05:33:36 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Camillo and Antonia, Thanks for the suggestions. Will look into these sources. Best wishes, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Mon, Feb 8, 2021 at 3:09 AM Camillo Formigatti < camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Dear Madhav, > > You could also turn to Harry Falk's *Schrift im alten Indien*, and > Richard Salomon's *Indian Epigraphy*, where you'll find a thorough > discussion of the primary sources. > > Best wishes, > > Camillo > > ------------------------------ > > Dr Camillo A. Formigatti > > Information Analyst ? FAMOUS Project > > > Bodleian Libraries > > The Weston Library > > Broad Street, Oxford > > OX1 3BG > > Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208 > www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk > > > > *GROW YOUR MIND* > > in Oxford University?s > > Gardens, Libraries and Museums > > www.mindgrowing.org > > ------------------------------ > *From:* indology-request at list.indology.info < > indology-request at list.indology.info> > *Sent:* Monday, February 8, 2021 8:30 AM > *To:* indology at list.indology.info > *Subject:* INDOLOGY Digest, Vol 97, Issue 9 > > Send INDOLOGY mailing list submissions to > indology at list.indology.info > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or > body 'help' to > indology-request at list.indology.info > > You can reach the person managing the list at > indology-owner at list.indology.info > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of INDOLOGY digest..." > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de Tue Feb 9 09:47:59 2021 From: wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de (Wiese) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 21 10:47:59 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_J._J._Meyer:_Kautilya-=C3=9Cbersetzung_+_Devanabhatta:_Smritichandrika?= Message-ID: Dear list members, I would be happy to receive scans of a) Johann Jakob Meyer: Das altindische Buch vom Welt- und Staatsleben. Das Arthacastra des Kautilya, Leipzig 1926. b) DevaNabhaTTa: SmRticandrikA, vyavahArakANDa, Part III (The first two parts of the vyavahAra section are found at archive.org Yours sincerely Harald Wiese University of Leipzig wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de From corinna.lhoir at uni-hamburg.de Tue Feb 9 14:26:58 2021 From: corinna.lhoir at uni-hamburg.de (Corinna May Lhoir) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 21 15:26:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hindi intensive summer courses online Message-ID: <72b1c432-6fd0-f6e6-be6c-28b2b3e63ce5@uni-hamburg.de> Dear list members, this year's Hindi summer intensive courses (August 02 - August 21) at Universit?t Hamburg will be conducted entirely online, so this will be a good opportunity to join from abroad! Please forward the information to your students and/or anyone interested. The courses are primarily aimed at complete beginners ? students and individuals with no prior knowledge of Hindi, and the intermediate level participants ? students and individuals having fundamental prior knowledge of Hindi. Our main focus is on communicative language use by applying interactive teaching methods. Timetable: Monday to Friday 09:00-15:00 (CET), with a break for lunch. More information on the courses and how to inscribe: https://www.aai.uni-hamburg.de/indtib/studium/intensivkurse/hindi-intensive-english.html See you online! Best wishes Corinna Lhoir -- ---------------------------------------------------- Corinna Lhoir, M.A. Universit?t Hamburg Fakult?t f?r Geisteswissenschaften Asien-Afrika-Institut Lehrbeauftragte Numata Zentrum f?r Buddhismuskunde Studierende Angestellte Alsterterrasse 1 20354 Hamburg Raum 109 +49 40 42838-8314 (Telefon) corinna.lhoir at uni-hamburg.de www.uni-hamburg.de www.aai.uni-hamburg.de/indtib From dkyoiwtoa at hotmail.com Tue Feb 9 14:32:30 2021 From: dkyoiwtoa at hotmail.com (Diwakar Acharya) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 21 14:32:30 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Junior Research Felloship at Oxford In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Here is an advertisement for everyone's information. Please pass it to possible candidates. https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/balliol-people/vacancies/2021/february/asoke-kumar-sarkar-early-career-fellowship-in-classical [https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/sites/all/themes/custom/balliol_2015/images/balliol_crest_for_social_media_001.png] Asoke Kumar Sarkar Early Career Fellowship in Classical Indology | Balliol College, University of Oxford The College proposes to elect a three-year fixed-term Early Career Fellow in Classical Indology. The position is available from 1 October 2021. www.balliol.ox.ac.uk Yours, Diwakar Prof. Dr. Diwakar Acharya Faculty of Oriental Studies / All Souls College University of Oxford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Karen.OBrien-Kop at roehampton.ac.uk Tue Feb 9 19:04:22 2021 From: Karen.OBrien-Kop at roehampton.ac.uk (Karen O'Brien-Kop) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 21 19:04:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] CfP: The Indian and Chinese Religions Compared Unit, AAR Message-ID: Dear colleagues Apologies for cross-posts. The Indian and Chinese Religions Compared Unit of the American Academy of Religion is inviting proposals for the 2021 Annual Meeting (hopefully) to be held in San Antonio, Texas, November 20-23. The deadline for submissions is 5pm EST on Monday, March 1. Please see our CFP at https://aar-conference.imis-inspire.com/a/page/ProgramUnits/indian-and-chinese-religions-compared-unit and for a co-sponsored session https://aar-conference.imis-inspire.com/a/page/ProgramUnits/co-sponsored-session-icrc-rmh . The AAR is using a new online system for submissions, replacing PAPERS with INSPIRE. You can find information on how to use the new system at https://aar-conference.imis-inspire.com/a/page/Instructions/inspire-instructions and https://aar-conference.imis-inspire.com/a/organizations/main/home ---------------------------------------- Call for Papers This unit invites proposals for either whole panels or individual papers on the following topics. Border Regions of India and China How is the concept of ?border? constructed, discussed and represented in religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism and Daoism? What are the directions of influence across and along these borders in historical and recent contexts? What are the connections between borderline and liminal practices/beliefs and geographical border regions? Interaction of Local Gods and Cults with Institutional Religion In which ways have local gods and cults interacted with institutional religion both within Indian and Chinese traditions and across boundaries? How do cult elements of South Asia travel into and manifest in China and vice versa? What was the contact and exchange between mainstream and ex-centric traditions and cultures? Which is ?mainstream?: State and court religion, or local and popular rituals and practices? Comparing Tantric and Daoist practices This panel invites in-depth comparative exploration of Tantric and Daoist practices. What, if anything, do they have in common, and what is unique to each? How are such practices expressed in different languages? Papers may focus on texts and/or material culture to draw out the imbricated aspects of these religious practices. Themes may include body, breath, visualization, ritual, hygiene, public space, architecture, social practice, etc. Co-sponsored with Religion, Medicine and Healing Unit The Materiality of Asian Medicines and Religions Compared This panel invites paper proposals that compare the intersections of Asian medical traditions with Buddhism, Daoism, and/or Hinduism, with a particular focus on the material culture of healing. Topics may include the comparison of medical practices and practitioners, botanical knowledge, other materia medica, geographical routes of transmission, body map illustrations, surgery, merchants and markets, biographies, alchemical practices, gendered bodies, physical movements and bodily hygiene (such as yoga, martial arts, diet, etc.), food, medical records, and other material aspects of healing. Proposals should also attend to related theoretical issues. Proposals should be submitted through AAR?s INSPIRE system (https://aar-conference.imis-inspire.com/a/organizations/main/home). Dan Lusthaus, Harvard University Karen O?Brien-Kop, University of Roehampton Co-Chairs Dr. Karen O'Brien-Kop (FHEA) Lecturer in Asian Religions and Ethics Convenor: BA Religion, Theology, and Culture Office hours: Wed 3.00-4.30pm (please email for appointment) Howard 210, School of Humanities University of Roehampton, London SW15 5PH karen.obrien-kop at roehampton.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)208 392 3427 New edited volume here: Routledge Research Handbook of Yoga and Meditation Studies (2020) ________________________________ This email and any attachments are confidential and intended solely for the addressee and may also be privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately, delete it from your system and do not copy, disclose or otherwise act upon any part of this email or its attachments. Internet communications are not guaranteed to be secure or virus-free. University of Roehampton does not accept responsibility for any loss arising from unauthorised access to, or interference with, any Internet communications by any third party, or from the transmission of any viruses. Any opinion or other information in this e-mail or its attachments that does not relate to the business of University of Roehampton is personal to the sender and is not given or endorsed by University of Roehampton. University of Roehampton is the trading name of Roehampton University, a company limited by guarantee incorporated in England under number 5161359. Registered Office: Grove House, Roehampton Lane, London SW15 5PJ. An exempt charity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Tue Feb 9 19:06:32 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Tue, 09 Feb 21 19:06:32 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_J._J._Meyer:_Kautilya-=C3=9Cbersetzung_+_Devanabhatta:_Smritichandrika?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I replied to Harald privately, but others may be interested to know (if they don't already) that Meyer's entire German translation of Kau?ilya's Artha??stra is available online in HTML format here: http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/M/Kau%E1%B9%ADilya Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy ?On 2/9/21, 4:48 AM, "Wiese" wrote: Dear list members, I would be happy to receive scans of a) Johann Jakob Meyer: Das altindische Buch vom Welt- und Staatsleben. Das Arthacastra des Kautilya, Leipzig 1926. b) DevaNabhaTTa: SmRticandrikA, vyavahArakANDa, Part III (The first two parts of the vyavahAra section are found at archive.org Yours sincerely Harald Wiese University of Leipzig wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cce0b799d2f2646dd0ce208d8ccdfcf74%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C0%7C637484608934616515%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HWKusnoluEssFVVkGv%2Bgyk%2BWI5oyHttxqq7nPcNy4y0%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 08:41:54 2021 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 21 09:41:54 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Junior Research Felloship at Oxford In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Charles, I suppose you are on the INDOLOGY list and are aware of this now. best. Manu Emmanuel FRANCIS Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) Online CV HAL DHARMA Project (ERC synergy grant 2018) TST Project (FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG) Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture Le mar. 9 f?vr. 2021 ? 15:33, Diwakar Acharya a ?crit : > Dear Colleagues, > > Here is an advertisement for everyone's information. Please pass it to > possible candidates. > > > https://www.balliol.ox.ac.uk/balliol-people/vacancies/2021/february/asoke-kumar-sarkar-early-career-fellowship-in-classical > > > Asoke Kumar Sarkar Early Career Fellowship in Classical Indology | Balliol > College, University of Oxford > > The College proposes to elect a three-year fixed-term Early Career Fellow > in Classical Indology. The position is available from 1 October 2021. > www.balliol.ox.ac.uk > > Yours, > > Diwakar > > Prof. Dr. Diwakar Acharya > Faculty of Oriental Studies / All Souls College > University of Oxford > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acchoda at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 12:55:44 2021 From: acchoda at gmail.com (David Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 21 12:55:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Seeking pdf of Chenet, Journal Asiatique 1993 Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'd be most grateful for a pdf of F. Chenet 'Les Sauras de l'Inde' Journal Asiatique CCLXXXI 1993, 317-392. Best wishes David Smith -- Dr David Smith Reader in South Asian Religions (retired) Lancaster University UK https://lancaster.academia.edu/DavidSmith acchoda at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ingo.strauch at unil.ch Wed Feb 10 13:14:25 2021 From: ingo.strauch at unil.ch (Ingo Strauch) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 21 13:14:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Library position in Lausanne Message-ID: <0CAE34E6-7718-46C8-8F2B-D82BE6BAECB3@unil.ch> Dear Colleagues, The University and Cantonal Library in Lausanne announced the following position which might be interesting for francophone (or at least French speaking) candidates: https://bit.ly/3a1PoMk With best wishes Ingo Strauch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acchoda at gmail.com Wed Feb 10 13:56:15 2021 From: acchoda at gmail.com (David Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 21 13:56:15 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Seeking Chenet 1993 RECEIVED Message-ID: Many thanks to the colleagues who immediately sent the pdf of Chenet Les Sauras 1993 that I requested. Best wishes David Smith -- Dr David Smith Reader in South Asian Religions (retired) Lancaster University UK https://lancaster.academia.edu/DavidSmith acchoda at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de Thu Feb 11 17:18:55 2021 From: wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de (wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 21 18:18:55 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__J._J._Meyer:_Kautilya-=C3=9Cbersetzung_+_Devanabhatta:_Smritichandrika?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20210211181855.Horde.oGbQ72dFtzB_Ai4BR0fhw4L@mail.uni-leipzig.de> Dear list members, I thank all of you who have responded via the list or via email. With respect to "Johann Jakob Meyer: Das altindische Buch vom Welt- und Staatsleben. Das Arthacastra des Kautilya, Leipzig 1926" Mark Clish was so kind to send me a pdf of Meyer's Vorwort and Einleitung. For the translation, see Tim Lubin's remark below. Concerning "DevaNabhaTTa: SmRticandrikA, vyavahArakANDa, Part III" I learned from Patrick Olivelle that such a third part does n o t exist in Sanskrit. I was confused because Gharpure's translation has three parts. The subject matter of the third part (translation) corresponds to pages 561-721 of the Mysore edition (edited by L. Srinivasacharya) where it belongs to part II. Gharpure's own edition (for PDFs thank you to Tim) follows the order of the Mysore edition. All the best from Leipzig Harald Wiese Zitat von "Lubin, Tim" : > Dear all, > > > > I replied to Harald privately, but others may be interested to know > (if they don't already) that Meyer's entire German translation of > Kau?ilya's Artha??stra is available online in HTML format here: > > http://www.zeno.org/Philosophie/M/Kau%E1%B9%ADilya > > > > Best, > > Tim > > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > > > > > > > ?On 2/9/21, 4:48 AM, "Wiese" wrote: > > > > Dear list members, > > > > I would be happy to receive scans of > > > > a) Johann Jakob Meyer: Das altindische Buch vom Welt- und Staatsleben. > > Das Arthacastra des Kautilya, Leipzig 1926. > > b) DevaNabhaTTa: SmRticandrikA, vyavahArakANDa, Part III (The first two > > parts of the vyavahAra section are found at archive.org > > > > Yours sincerely > > > > Harald Wiese > > University of Leipzig > > wiese at wifa.uni-leipzig.de > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > managing committee) > > > https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flistinfo.indology.info%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clubint%40wlu.edu%7Cce0b799d2f2646dd0ce208d8ccdfcf74%7Cd1a80622a99943e58eb67873905e939e%7C1%7C0%7C637484608934616515%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=HWKusnoluEssFVVkGv%2Bgyk%2BWI5oyHttxqq7nPcNy4y0%3D&reserved=0 (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From psdmccartney at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 03:57:50 2021 From: psdmccartney at gmail.com (patrick mccartney) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 12:57:50 +0900 Subject: [INDOLOGY] syndicalism Message-ID: Dear Friends, I'm writing about the unionisation of yoga, its possibilities and precedents. I serendipitously stumbled across this entry at spokensanskrit.org: zramikasaGga-vAda syndicalism [Econ.: Theory of trade-union action] I'm guessing this refers to the anarchist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and the socialist Auguste Blanqui and the syndicalists that emerged from their ideas. Does anyone know the backstory to this entry? Thank you. All the best, ????? ??????? Patrick McCartney, PhD Research Affiliate - Organization for Identity and Cultural Development (OICD), Kyoto Research Associate - Nanzan University Anthropological Institute, Nagoya, Japan Visiting Fellow - South and South-east Asian Studies Department, Australian National University Member - South Asia Research Institute (SARI), Australian National University Skype / Zoom - psdmccartney Phone + Whatsapp + Line: +61410644259 Twitter - @psdmccartney @yogascapesinjap Yogascapes in Japan Academia Linkedin Modern Yoga Research *bodhap?rvam calema* ;-) - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Fri Feb 12 19:45:49 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 19:45:49 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Biography of epigraphist V. Venkayya Message-ID: Dear List members, A few weeks ago I received a copy of a biography of the South Indian epigraphist V. Venkayya (1864-1912), written by his great-granddaughter Sunitha Madhavan. Life and Works of Rai Bahadur V. Venkayya. The book is published by the Tamil Arts Academy, No. 11, 22nd Cross Street, Besant Nagar Chennai-600090. Tamilnadu, India. (For information email: urnagaswamy at gmail.com) It provides a detailed description of Venkayya?s life and work, as Officiating Epigraphist of the Government of Madras and later as Chief Epigraphist to the Imperial Government of India. Much attention is paid to his collaboration with Eugen Hultzsch, whom he eventually succeeded. The author also quotes frequently from Venkayya?s dairies, which were given to her by her father, together with letters, and coins from Venkayya?s collection. To give just one example from the diaries, here the report written in 1912 of a visit paid by my countryman Jean Philippe Vogel: ?Vogel came to my office and was talking quite familiarly for about an hour. What a strange contrast to the man when he was D.G. In every drop of his blood he must have felt at the time that he was a big personage. He has now come down to the level of an ordinary human being. I never thought that Europeans were capable of such affectation. Vogel is however a Dutchman and I do not know much about the ways of Hollanders. He is going to stay here until September when he goes on leave. I must study the man very closely and see if he is at least honest and straightforward, He promised to contribute articles for Epigraphia Indica and said it would be splendid if I would undertake to publish the inscriptions of the Lahore Museum. Let me see if the man really meant what he said. There is plenty of time.? As far as I know Vogel did not keep his promise, but Venkayya did not live long enough to be disappointed. Kind regards, Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Fri Feb 12 21:46:05 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 16:46:05 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] request re Benfey Message-ID: Might a kind colleague be able and willing to share a copy in any form of Meta Benfey's biography of her father, Theodor Benfey, apparently privately printed in 1909? I am particularly interested in his early years in Frankfurt (1830?1832) and Heidelberg (1832?1834). According to Windisch's /Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie/, the relevant section would include pages 19?20. With thanks and best wishes, Rosane Rocher -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com Fri Feb 12 22:07:02 2021 From: timfelixaufderheide at gmail.com (Tim Felix Aufderheide) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 23:07:02 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <076d0e3c-2c81-9b7c-e820-6f5ffec9fa6e@gmail.com> Dear Prof Rocher, I think the biography of Benfey you are looking for is the same as the one that is included in his /Kleine Schriften/ (ed. A. Bezzenberger, vol. 1, pp. vii-xl; the Frankfurt episode pp. xiii-xvii therein). Unfortunately I don't have a pdf of that book or a scanner at hand right now... Maybe somebody else on the list can provide you with those pages. Best regards from Hannover Tim Am 12.02.2021 um 22:46 schrieb Rosane Rocher: > Might a kind colleague be able and willing to share a copy in any form > of Meta Benfey's biography of her father, Theodor Benfey, apparently > privately printed in 1909? I am particularly interested in his early > years in Frankfurt (1830?1832) and Heidelberg (1832?1834). According > to Windisch's /Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie/, the relevant > section would include pages 19?20. > > With thanks and best wishes, > Rosane Rocher > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Fri Feb 12 22:13:25 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 22:13:25 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey In-Reply-To: <076d0e3c-2c81-9b7c-e820-6f5ffec9fa6e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3627BD82-439E-419E-A424-32D1F0FA1CD6@wlu.edu> Dear Rosane, The Kleine Schriften volume is available for download from Google Books, including the biography: https://books.google.com/books?id=2n741mSuyysC&printsec=frontcover&dq=theodore+benfey+bezzenberger&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy1sa6ruXuAhVih-AKHSFrBUIQuwUwAHoECAIQCQ#v=onepage&q=theodore%20benfey%20bezzenberger&f=false Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: Tim Felix Aufderheide Date: Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:07 PM To: INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey Dear Prof Rocher, I think the biography of Benfey you are looking for is the same as the one that is included in his Kleine Schriften (ed. A. Bezzenberger, vol. 1, pp. vii-xl; the Frankfurt episode pp. xiii-xvii therein). Unfortunately I don't have a pdf of that book or a scanner at hand right now... Maybe somebody else on the list can provide you with those pages. Best regards from Hannover Tim Am 12.02.2021 um 22:46 schrieb Rosane Rocher: Might a kind colleague be able and willing to share a copy in any form of Meta Benfey's biography of her father, Theodor Benfey, apparently privately printed in 1909? I am particularly interested in his early years in Frankfurt (1830?1832) and Heidelberg (1832?1834). According to Windisch's Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie, the relevant section would include pages 19?20. With thanks and best wishes, Rosane Rocher _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LubinT at wlu.edu Fri Feb 12 22:16:01 2021 From: LubinT at wlu.edu (Lubin, Tim) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 22:16:01 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey In-Reply-To: <3627BD82-439E-419E-A424-32D1F0FA1CD6@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <1436CF0C-9794-4539-8FA0-42044DBAF024@wlu.edu> Dear Rosane, Here is just the front matter and the biography, attached. Hope you are well! Tim Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: "Lubin, Tim" Date: Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:13 PM To: Tim Felix Aufderheide , INDOLOGY , Rosane Rocher Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey Dear Rosane, The Kleine Schriften volume is available for download from Google Books, including the biography: https://books.google.com/books?id=2n741mSuyysC&printsec=frontcover&dq=theodore+benfey+bezzenberger&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy1sa6ruXuAhVih-AKHSFrBUIQuwUwAHoECAIQCQ#v=onepage&q=theodore%20benfey%20bezzenberger&f=false Best, Tim Timothy Lubin Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law 204 Tucker Hall Washington and Lee University Lexington, Virginia 24450 American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin https://ssrn.com/author=930949 https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy From: Tim Felix Aufderheide Date: Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:07 PM To: INDOLOGY Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey Dear Prof Rocher, I think the biography of Benfey you are looking for is the same as the one that is included in his Kleine Schriften (ed. A. Bezzenberger, vol. 1, pp. vii-xl; the Frankfurt episode pp. xiii-xvii therein). Unfortunately I don't have a pdf of that book or a scanner at hand right now... Maybe somebody else on the list can provide you with those pages. Best regards from Hannover Tim Am 12.02.2021 um 22:46 schrieb Rosane Rocher: Might a kind colleague be able and willing to share a copy in any form of Meta Benfey's biography of her father, Theodor Benfey, apparently privately printed in 1909? I am particularly interested in his early years in Frankfurt (1830?1832) and Heidelberg (1832?1834). According to Windisch's Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie, the relevant section would include pages 19?20. With thanks and best wishes, Rosane Rocher _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: BenfeybiofromKleinereSchriften.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 1011646 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Fri Feb 12 22:16:57 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 17:16:57 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey In-Reply-To: <076d0e3c-2c81-9b7c-e820-6f5ffec9fa6e@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, indeed! Thanks very much, Tim. Rosane On 2/12/21 5:07 PM, Tim Felix Aufderheide wrote: > > Dear Prof Rocher, > > I think the biography of Benfey you are looking for is the same as the > one that is included in his /Kleine Schriften/ (ed. A. Bezzenberger, > vol. 1, pp. vii-xl; the Frankfurt episode pp. xiii-xvii therein). > > Unfortunately I don't have a pdf of that book or a scanner at hand > right now... > > Maybe somebody else on the list can provide you with those pages. > > Best regards from Hannover > > Tim > > > Am 12.02.2021 um 22:46 schrieb Rosane Rocher: >> Might a kind colleague be able and willing to share a copy in any >> form of Meta Benfey's biography of her father, Theodor Benfey, >> apparently privately printed in 1909? I am particularly interested in >> his early years in Frankfurt (1830?1832) and Heidelberg (1832?1834). >> According to Windisch's /Geschichte der Sanskrit-Philologie/, the >> relevant section would include pages 19?20. >> >> With thanks and best wishes, >> Rosane Rocher >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list --indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email toindology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Fri Feb 12 22:39:30 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 17:39:30 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey In-Reply-To: <1436CF0C-9794-4539-8FA0-42044DBAF024@wlu.edu> Message-ID: <9d6553b5-d567-7601-7b9a-e1c8e782be89@sas.upenn.edu> Thanks, Tim #2.? I had found it in Hathi in the meantime, but it is even nicer to have it downloaded. I am well, thank you. I got my first Pfizer vaccine shot this week. Your lecture here at Penn was my last outing before the pandemic struck. It feels like a decade ago. Keep well, Rosane On 2/12/21 5:16 PM, Lubin, Tim wrote: > > Dear Rosane, > > > Here is just the front matter and the biography, attached. > > > Hope you are well! > > Tim > > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > > > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > *From: *"Lubin, Tim" > *Date: *Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:13 PM > *To: *Tim Felix Aufderheide , INDOLOGY > , Rosane Rocher > *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey > > Dear Rosane, > > > The Kleine Schriften volume is available for download from Google > Books, including the biography: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=2n741mSuyysC&printsec=frontcover&dq=theodore+benfey+bezzenberger&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiy1sa6ruXuAhVih-AKHSFrBUIQuwUwAHoECAIQCQ#v=onepage&q=theodore%20benfey%20bezzenberger&f=false > > > Best, > > Tim > > Timothy Lubin > Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law > 204 Tucker Hall > Washington and Lee University > Lexington, Virginia 24450 > > American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020?21 > National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020?21 > > https://lubin.academic.wlu.edu/ > > > http://wlu.academia.edu/TimothyLubin > > > https://ssrn.com/author=930949 > > https://dharma.hypotheses.org/people/lubin-timothy > > > *From: *Tim Felix Aufderheide > *Date: *Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:07 PM > *To: *INDOLOGY > *Subject: *[INDOLOGY] Re: request re Benfey > > Dear Prof Rocher, > > I think the biography of Benfey you are looking for is the same as the > one that is included in his /Kleine Schriften/ (ed. A. Bezzenberger, > vol. 1, pp. vii-xl; the Frankfurt episode pp. xiii-xvii therein). > > Unfortunately I don't have a pdf of that book or a scanner at hand > right now... > > Maybe somebody else on the list can provide you with those pages. > > Best regards from Hannover > > Tim > > Am 12.02.2021 um 22:46 schrieb Rosane Rocher: > > Might a kind colleague be able and willing to share a copy in any > form of Meta Benfey's biography of her father, Theodor Benfey, > apparently privately printed in 1909? I am particularly interested > in his early years in Frankfurt (1830?1832) and Heidelberg > (1832?1834). According to Windisch's /Geschichte der > Sanskrit-Philologie/, the relevant section would include pages 19?20. > > With thanks and best wishes, > Rosane Rocher > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list --indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email toindology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au Fri Feb 12 23:49:22 2021 From: Greg.Bailey at latrobe.edu.au (Greg Bailey) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 21 23:49:22 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Scan of Rajendra Nath Sen, Brahma Vaivarta Puranam In-Reply-To: <1436CF0C-9794-4539-8FA0-42044DBAF024@wlu.edu> Message-ID: Dear List, >From Archiv.com I have downloaded Rajendra Nath Sen, Brahma Vaivarta Puranam, Part IV,Sacred Books of the Hindus, Vol, xxxiv. which contains a translation of the Ga?e?akha??a and the K???ajanmakha??a. However, in the scan only the K???ajanmakha??a is present, the Ga?e?akha??a having been left out even though its contents are listed in the contents of the book. If anybody could supply me with the relevant forty-six chapters or can direct me to an online version, it would be very much appreciated. Cheers, Greg Bailey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dkyoiwtoa at hotmail.com Sat Feb 13 07:43:27 2021 From: dkyoiwtoa at hotmail.com (Diwakar Acharya) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 07:43:27 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, A friend is looking for this paper, and we would be delighted to have a copy if you have it scanned: Bapat, P.V. 1971 k?t in a Buddhist Sanskrit Vinaya Text, Journal of the Department of Sanskrit University of Delhi, 58-62. Best, Diwakar Prof. Diwakar Acharya Faculty of Oriental Studies / All Souls College University of Oxford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 09:20:04 2021 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 14:50:04 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Request for a scan Message-ID: Dear all, I would request for the scan of the following work. I had a scan from somewhere, which is now lost due to a computer glitch. Book - ??????????????????? ????????????????? - ??????? [???????????????????-???????????????????????? ???????????] ?????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????? ???????? ??????? ???????? ?????????? - ?? Editor - ??? ??????????? ???????? -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 10:30:46 2021 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 11:30:46 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Pdf request Message-ID: Dear Indologists, I am looking for a pdf of this article: Urban, H.B. 1995. "The Remnants of Desire: Sacrificial Violence and 1995 Sexual Transgression in the Cult of the Kapalikas and in the Writings of Georges Bataille." *Religion* 25: 67-90. Maybe anyone is able to help me. Best, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo **ER **osati/ * paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jacob at fabularasa.dk Sat Feb 13 11:22:49 2021 From: jacob at fabularasa.dk (jacob at fabularasa.dk) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 12:22:49 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Pdf request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7c26d1a196cb7a846149e201aad5e0b2@fabularasa.dk> Hi Paolo, Please find the requested article attached. Best, Jacob Jacob Schmidt-Madsen Postdoctoral Researcher in Indology Department of Cross-Cultural and Regional Studies University of Copenhagen Denmark Paolo Eugenio Rosati skrev den 2021-02-13 11:30: > Dear Indologists, > > I am looking for a pdf of this article: > > Urban, H.B. 1995. "The Remnants of Desire: Sacrificial Violence and > 1995 Sexual Transgression in the Cult of the Kapalikas and in the > Writings of Georges Bataille." _Religion_ 25: 67-90. > > Maybe anyone is able to help me. > > Best, > Paolo > > -- > > PAOLO E. ROSATI > > PhD in Asian and African Studies > > https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo [1]ER [1]osati/ [1] > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > > Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] https://uniroma1.academia.edu/PaoloRosati/ > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Urban_1995_The-Remnants-of-Desire.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 194652 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 12:13:35 2021 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 13:13:35 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Pdf request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you very much to all the scholars who emailed a copy to me. Best, Paolo Il giorno sab 13 feb 2021 alle ore 11:30 Paolo Eugenio Rosati < paoloe.rosati at gmail.com> ha scritto: > Dear Indologists, > > I am looking for a pdf of this article: > > Urban, H.B. 1995. "The Remnants of Desire: Sacrificial Violence and 1995 > Sexual Transgression in the Cult of the Kapalikas and in the Writings of > Georges Bataille." *Religion* 25: 67-90. > > Maybe anyone is able to help me. > > Best, > Paolo > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati* > > *PhD in Asian and African Studies* > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo > **ER > **osati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo **ER **osati/ * paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natankor at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 15:47:42 2021 From: natankor at gmail.com (NK) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 18:47:42 +0300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya Performance Committee, 1955 . And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" (1956) accompanying the film. With thanks and best wishes, Yours, Natalia Korneeva -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Sat Feb 13 16:18:20 2021 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 17:18:20 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear friends, I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items Best regards, Jean Michel Delire Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit?: > Dear colleagues, > Would anyone happen to have?V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee > manual: > _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya > Performance Committee, 1955 .? > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and? > 13-page unpublished??typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" > (1956)??accompanying the film. > > With thanks and best wishes,? > Yours, > Natalia Korneeva > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From eastwestcultural at yahoo.com Sat Feb 13 16:23:38 2021 From: eastwestcultural at yahoo.com (Dean Michael Anderson) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 16:23:38 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <845179735.1014495.1613233418842@mail.yahoo.com> I'm also interested. Dean On Saturday, February 13, 2021, 9:48:30 PM GMT+5:30, jmdelire wrote: Dear friends, I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items Best regards, Jean Michel Delire Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit?: > Dear colleagues, > Would anyone happen to have?V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee > manual: > _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya > Performance Committee, 1955 .? > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and? > 13-page unpublished??typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" > (1956)??accompanying the film. > > With thanks and best wishes,? > Yours, > Natalia Korneeva > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lauren.bausch at drbu.edu Sat Feb 13 18:09:22 2021 From: lauren.bausch at drbu.edu (Lauren Bausch) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 10:09:22 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: <845179735.1014495.1613233418842@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Natalia, I am interested too and am glad that you are working on the V?japeya. Best wishes, Lauren Lauren Bausch Assistant Professor Dharma Realm Buddhist University "Concepts are really monsters that are reborn from their fragments." --Deleuze and Guattari, *What is Philosophy, *p. 140. On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 8:24 AM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > I'm also interested. > > Dean > > On Saturday, February 13, 2021, 9:48:30 PM GMT+5:30, jmdelire < > jmdelire at ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > Dear friends, > > I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items > > Best regards, > > Jean Michel Delire > > > Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit : > > Dear colleagues, > > Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee > > manual: > > _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya > > Performance Committee, 1955 . > > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and > > 13-page unpublished typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" > > (1956) accompanying the film. > > > > With thanks and best wishes, > > Yours, > > Natalia Korneeva > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > > or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at email.gwu.edu Sat Feb 13 18:25:11 2021 From: beitel at email.gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 13:25:11 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too would like t see this. Alf Sent from my iPad > On Feb 13, 2021, at 11:18 AM, jmdelire wrote: > > Dear friends, > > I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items > > Best regards, > > Jean Michel Delire > > > Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit : >> Dear colleagues, >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee >> manual: >> _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya >> Performance Committee, 1955 . >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >> 13-page unpublished typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" >> (1956) accompanying the film. >> With thanks and best wishes, >> Yours, >> Natalia Korneeva >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Feb 13 18:45:42 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 10:45:42 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, I have the 1955 booklet "The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice" published by the Vajapeya Performance Committee, Poona. I will have to scan it and make it available. Give me some time. There was a film about this sacrifice that was distributed by the Vaidika Samshodhan Mandal, Pune, and I had bought a video cassette copy of it many years ago. I will look for it. Best, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 7:48 AM NK wrote: > Dear colleagues, > Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: > *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya > Performance Committee, 1955 . > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and > 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" > (1956) accompanying the film. > > With thanks and best wishes, > Yours, > Natalia Korneeva > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hermantull at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 18:59:06 2021 From: hermantull at gmail.com (Herman Tull) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 13:59:06 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Are the materials Madhav cites the same as the Van Buitenen materials? David Knipe's book, Vedic Voices: Intimate Narratives of a Living Andhra Tradition, has an entry in the bibliography for Van Buitenen's 1956, 13-pg, unpublished typescript that accompanies the film. (Perhaps he has the typescript in his possession.)Also, the entry for Van Buitenen's papers, held at the UC library, suggests that there are at least field notes to the film in their collection (but perhaps not the actual typescript that accompanied the film). https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/scrc/findingaids/view.php?eadid=ICU.SPCL.BUITENEN#idp148150056 A 1977 multi-authored document written by Knipe, Morgan, Dell, McDermott, and Smith, "Focus on Hindusim: A-V Resources for Teaching Religion," indicates that even in 1977, the film was no longer to be found. This was brought up years ago in the Indology list. In 2010, Jarrod Whitaker sent out the following: *Fri Nov 12 08:43:07 EST 2010* Does anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of the film: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice produced by J.A.B. van Buitenen, 1955. My inter-library loan people sent me this message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers. Additionally, I have conducted online research and have been unable to locate the film as cited." Herman Tull On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 1:25 PM Alfred Hiltebeitel via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > > I too would like t see this. Alf > Sent from my iPad > > > On Feb 13, 2021, at 11:18 AM, jmdelire wrote: > > > > Dear friends, > > > > I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jean Michel Delire > > > > > > Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit : > >> Dear colleagues, > >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee > >> manual: > >> _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya > >> Performance Committee, 1955 . > >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and > >> 13-page unpublished typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" > >> (1956) accompanying the film. > >> With thanks and best wishes, > >> Yours, > >> Natalia Korneeva > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > >> or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sat Feb 13 19:27:03 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 11:27:03 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What I have is not what was produced by Van Buitenen, but by the V?japeya Performance Committee in Poona. Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 10:59 AM Herman Tull wrote: > Are the materials Madhav cites the same as the Van Buitenen materials? > > David Knipe's book, Vedic Voices: Intimate Narratives of a Living Andhra > Tradition, has an entry in the bibliography for Van Buitenen's 1956, 13-pg, > unpublished typescript that accompanies the film. (Perhaps he has the > typescript in his possession.)Also, the entry for Van Buitenen's papers, > held at the UC library, suggests that there are at least field notes to the > film in their collection (but perhaps not the actual typescript that > accompanied the film). > > https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/scrc/findingaids/view.php?eadid=ICU.SPCL.BUITENEN#idp148150056 > > A 1977 multi-authored document written by Knipe, Morgan, Dell, McDermott, > and Smith, "Focus on Hindusim: A-V Resources for Teaching Religion," > indicates that even in 1977, the film was no longer to be found. > > This was brought up years ago in the Indology list. In 2010, Jarrod > Whitaker sent out the following: > > *Fri Nov 12 08:43:07 EST 2010* > > Does anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of the film: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice produced by J.A.B. van Buitenen, 1955. My inter-library loan people sent me this message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. > There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers. Additionally, I have conducted online research and have been unable to locate the film as cited." > > Herman Tull > > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 1:25 PM Alfred Hiltebeitel via INDOLOGY < > indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > >> >> I too would like t see this. Alf >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Feb 13, 2021, at 11:18 AM, jmdelire wrote: >> > >> > Dear friends, >> > >> > I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Jean Michel Delire >> > >> > >> > Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit : >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee >> >> manual: >> >> _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya >> >> Performance Committee, 1955 . >> >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >> >> 13-page unpublished typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" >> >> (1956) accompanying the film. >> >> With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Yours, >> >> Natalia Korneeva >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> >> or unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From witzel at fas.harvard.edu Sat Feb 13 19:37:37 2021 From: witzel at fas.harvard.edu (Witzel, Michael) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 19:37:37 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To all Vajapeyins: I have an electronic copy of the Poona performance, made a few years ago from a VCR cassette tape. But it is around 650 MB, so I would have to send it to interested colleagues via WETRANSFER, so that you can download it. I also have a photocopy of the Vajapeya booklet, but it is in my (closed) office and it would have to be scanned. Perhaps someone already has a scanned copy ? So please let me know. After a day or two I will send the film to interested parties. There also is a film of a Pravargya, done at Delhi, maybe a decade later. I think Jan Houben has it (as do I). Finally there are multiple snippets of the Pravargya as part of the 2011 Agnicayana held at Panjal, Kerala. Some are in Youtube, if you look for Atiratra (Athiraathra) [NB not the Indian cinema movie!). Best wishes, Michael On Feb 13, 2021, at 1:59 PM, Herman Tull > wrote: Are the materials Madhav cites the same as the Van Buitenen materials? David Knipe's book, Vedic Voices: Intimate Narratives of a Living Andhra Tradition, has an entry in the bibliography for Van Buitenen's 1956, 13-pg, unpublished typescript that accompanies the film. (Perhaps he has the typescript in his possession.)Also, the entry for Van Buitenen's papers, held at the UC library, suggests that there are at least field notes to the film in their collection (but perhaps not the actual typescript that accompanied the film). https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/scrc/findingaids/view.php?eadid=ICU.SPCL.BUITENEN#idp148150056 A 1977 multi-authored document written by Knipe, Morgan, Dell, McDermott, and Smith, "Focus on Hindusim: A-V Resources for Teaching Religion," indicates that even in 1977, the film was no longer to be found. This was brought up years ago in the Indology list. In 2010, Jarrod Whitaker sent out the following: Fri Nov 12 08:43:07 EST 2010 Does anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of the film: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice produced by J.A.B. van Buitenen, 1955. My inter-library loan people sent me this message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers. Additionally, I have conducted online research and have been unable to locate the film as cited." Herman Tull On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 1:25 PM Alfred Hiltebeitel via INDOLOGY > wrote: I too would like t see this. Alf Sent from my iPad > On Feb 13, 2021, at 11:18 AM, jmdelire > wrote: > > Dear friends, > > I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items > > Best regards, > > Jean Michel Delire > > > Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit : >> Dear colleagues, >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee >> manual: >> _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya >> Performance Committee, 1955 . >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >> 13-page unpublished typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" >> (1956) accompanying the film. >> With thanks and best wishes, >> Yours, >> Natalia Korneeva >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sat Feb 13 23:47:06 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 18:47:06 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and vernacular languages Message-ID: Dear list members, Can anyone point me to any articles or studies of hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and an indian vernacular language. Thanks, Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Feb 14 01:36:00 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 17:36:00 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and vernacular languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Harry, Here is an example of Hindi-Sanskrit language mixture in a Bhajan composed by Goswami Tulasidas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Ramachandra_Kripalu I have discussed some examples of language mixture in an article. Please see the attached file. Best, Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:47 PM Harry Spier wrote: > Dear list members, > Can anyone point me to any articles or studies of hymns that are a mixture > of sanskrit and an indian vernacular language. > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Deshpande1996ContextualizingtheEternalLanguage-FeaturesofPriestlySanskrit.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 2075005 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 04:09:29 2021 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 09:39:29 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and vernacular languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mixture of Sanskrit and Indian vernacular languages is at three levels : 1. Language used in the hymn itself is a hybrid of Sanskrit and the vernacular, the language is called Manipravaala Malayalam examples are the 15th century works, *Vasudeva Stavam, Avatharana Dasakam, Dasavathara Charitham, Chelloor Nadha Stavam, Ramayana Keerthanam*, and *Bhadrakali Stavam (*http://www.keralaculture.org/manipravalam/264) 2. A given stotra having a few verses in Sanskrit and a few in the vernacular There are some stotras in Telugu and Tamil falling under this category. 3. Recitation routines mixing Sanskrit and vernacular stotras. This is the most common, widely prevalent phenomenon, sometimes creating number 2 above. On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 7:07 AM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Harry, > > Here is an example of Hindi-Sanskrit language mixture in a Bhajan > composed by Goswami Tulasidas. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Ramachandra_Kripalu > > I have discussed some examples of language mixture in an article. > Please see the attached file. Best, > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:47 PM Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> Can anyone point me to any articles or studies of hymns that are a >> mixture of sanskrit and an indian vernacular language. >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sun Feb 14 04:34:35 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 20:34:35 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and vernacular languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3371B4B9-4025-4FAF-9602-16A625E8D836@earthlink.net> Dear Harry Spier, You have asked for studies/articles, which in my view would be secondary sources. Nevertheless, I?m giving you a good primary source to contact. I hope it will be of some help. South Indian Carnatic/Classical Music is loaded with songs/hymns depicting a mixture of Sanskrit and different regional languages such as Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil. [One main reason for the ?Tamil nationalists? to boycott them! ;-) ] A wonderful musician, Prince Rama Varma (from the erstwhile Travancore Kingdom; a direct descendant of a ruling king and a great composer Maharaja Swathi Thirunal & the famous painter Raja Ravi Varma), considers such songs display a 'ma?iprav??a style,? meaning that such songs have one line in Sanskrit and another in a regional language. Prince Rama Varma has been singing bhajans, hymns, songs, ? from several Indian languages. Feel free to contact Prince Rama Varma at: writetoramavarma at gmail.com His Website address: http://ramavarma.yolasite.com Regards, rajam > On Feb 13, 2021, at 3:47 PM, Harry Spier wrote: > > Dear list members, > Can anyone point me to any articles or studies of hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and an indian vernacular language. > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Sun Feb 14 05:29:54 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 21 21:29:54 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and vernacular languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1FAA74BA-AFAC-4464-8ECE-1B0910C3AC10@earthlink.net> See/Listen/enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a7pS3yqwI (S?ri Ramachandra Kripalu Bhajamana ?) > On Feb 13, 2021, at 5:36 PM, Madhav Deshpande wrote: > > Dear Harry, > > Here is an example of Hindi-Sanskrit language mixture in a Bhajan composed by Goswami Tulasidas. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Ramachandra_Kripalu > > I have discussed some examples of language mixture in an article. Please see the attached file. Best, > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:47 PM Harry Spier > wrote: > Dear list members, > Can anyone point me to any articles or studies of hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and an indian vernacular language. > Thanks, > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 14:49:42 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 09:49:42 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Hymns that are a mixture of sanskrit and vernacular languages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to those members who replied on list Nagaraj Paturi, Rajam and to those who replied off-list, Andrew Ollett and Y?to Kawamura. An especial thanks to Madhav Deshpande for his superb article. On page 430 of that article he wrote: . . . in the passage *?r?**savit?**s?ryan?r?ya?adevat?pr?tyartham* . . . Here, the expression *devat?prityartham* is a genuine classical Sanskrit expression. . . The form *savit? *is a hanging nominative form, which cannot be grammatically justified in this context. One would expect the form *savit?* to appear in the compound. However, the vernacular-speaking audience, and the priest himself, have a greater recognition of the nominative form savitA than he abstract base-form *savit?*. The nominative Sanskrit form *savit?* has been inherited by Marathi, but not the abstract base-form *savit?*. Is the form dh?t? in dh?t??a?karamohin? in Verse 5 of the ku??alin?stava? also a vernacular form. Verse 5 of the ku??alin?stava? is : dh?t??a?karamohin? tribhuvanacch?y?pa?odg?min? sa?s?r?dimah?sukhaprahara?? tatra sthit? yogin? sarvagranthivibhedin? svabhujag? s?k?m?tis?k?m? par? brahmaj??navinodin? kulaku?? vy?gh?tin? bh?vyate Thanks, Harry Spier On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 8:36 PM Madhav Deshpande wrote: > Dear Harry, > > Here is an example of Hindi-Sanskrit language mixture in a Bhajan > composed by Goswami Tulasidas. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shri_Ramachandra_Kripalu > > I have discussed some examples of language mixture in an article. > Please see the attached file. Best, > > Madhav > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 3:47 PM Harry Spier > wrote: > >> Dear list members, >> Can anyone point me to any articles or studies of hymns that are a >> mixture of sanskrit and an indian vernacular language. >> Thanks, >> Harry Spier >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Sun Feb 14 19:10:50 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 11:10:50 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Download link for the Vajapeya booklet 1955 Message-ID: Dear friends, I scanned the Vajapeya Sacrfice booklet from Pune 1955. Here is the download link for it. It will last for a week. https://we.tl/t-6MFS5kVBkX Best wishes, Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 20:44:08 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 15:44:08 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Note also that there is a pdf of a manuscript titled v?japeyahautram from the manuscript collection of the Sama Diksita family from Gokarna in the digital library of Muktabodha https://gokarnacollection.muktabodha.org/TEXTS/SAMBADIKSITA/SAMBADIKSITA-PDF/S0044.pdf Also, looking at Appendix II of the V?japeya booklet, among the officiating priests were members of the Joglekar and Kodlekere families from Gokarna, whose manuscript collections are also downloadable from the Muktabodha digital library (though I don't see anything else with V?japeya in the titles). https://gokarnacollection.muktabodha.org/vedic_library.htm Harry Spier On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 10:48 AM NK wrote: > Dear colleagues, > Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: > *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya > Performance Committee, 1955 . > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and > 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" > (1956) accompanying the film. > > With thanks and best wishes, > Yours, > Natalia Korneeva > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natankor at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 20:48:23 2021 From: natankor at gmail.com (NK) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 23:48:23 +0300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Thanks a lot for your prompt reaction, this list is a real "kaly??akalpataru"! Happy to receive Dr. B. van Buitenen's film from Prof. Michael Witzel and the Vajapeya Sacrifice booklet Pune 1955 from Prof. Madhav Deshpande THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks to Dr. Herman Tull for additional information about Van Buitenen's papers. With great respect and best wishes Cordially Yours Natalia ??, 13 ????. 2021 ?. ? 18:47, NK : > Dear colleagues, > Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: > *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya > Performance Committee, 1955 . > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and > 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" > (1956) accompanying the film. > > With thanks and best wishes, > Yours, > Natalia Korneeva > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Sun Feb 14 21:09:55 2021 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 22:09:55 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be happy to get van Buitenen's film (a humble request to Professor Witzel) and the Vajapeya materials (a humble request to Professor Deshpande) mentioned in the letter of Natalia. With best wishes, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz niedz., 14 lut 2021 o 21:49 NK napisa?(a): > Dear colleagues, > Thanks a lot for your prompt reaction, this list is a real > "kaly??akalpataru"! > > Happy to receive Dr. B. van Buitenen's film from Prof. Michael Witzel > and the Vajapeya Sacrifice booklet Pune 1955 from Prof. Madhav Deshpande > THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Thanks to Dr. Herman Tull for additional information about Van Buitenen's > papers. > > With great respect and best wishes > Cordially Yours > Natalia > > ??, 13 ????. 2021 ?. ? 18:47, NK : > >> Dear colleagues, >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: >> *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya >> Performance Committee, 1955 . >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >> 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" >> (1956) accompanying the film. >> >> With thanks and best wishes, >> Yours, >> Natalia Korneeva >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From royce.wiles at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 21:17:06 2021 From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 10:17:06 +1300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Nitti-Dolci_on_Puru=E1=B9=A3ottama's_Pr=C4=81k=E1=B9=9Bt=C4=81nu=C5=9B=C4=81sana?= Message-ID: <15CC4E30-C28B-42C0-B3E9-498CB33A8F68@gmail.com> Hi Reading through Nitti-Dolci?s insightful 1938 survey of Prakrit grammars I have produced a draft schematic overview (PDF attached here I hope) of her main comments for my own use (thought to share just in case it is helpful to anyone else). I have though, also been trying to locate a copy (hard or soft) of her 1938 thesis (citation below) but the usual sources (internet.archive, Scribd, Abebooks, etc.) have not produced a copy. Does anyone have a PDF of this study to share I wonder? Royce WILES 1938 *?Le ?Prakrtanusasana? de Purusottama : the?se comple?mentaire pour le doctorat de?s lettres pre?sente?e? / par Luigia Nitti-Dolci. Paris ; Ma?con : Impr. de Protat fre?res, 1938. xxvii, 144 p. (Cahiers de la Socie?te? asiatique. no. 6). Includes French translation. ?[?]uvre magistralement ex?cut?e? (Louis Renou, 1938, review of Nitti-Dolci?s 1938 book, Journal asiatique 1938: 159). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Nitti-Dolci1938schematicoverview.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 127353 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Sun Feb 14 21:36:34 2021 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 22:36:34 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]__Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you very much to Michael, Madhav and Harry for all these very interesting documents ! I even found, in the Gokarna collection, a manuscript of the Baudhaayana Shulbasuutradiipikaa (subject of my book, Droz, 2016) that I didn't know. Are there also GaNita or Siddhaanta manuscripts available ? I mean, through the Muktabodha IRI. Jean Michel Le 14.02.2021 21:48, NK a ?crit?: > Dear colleagues, > Thanks a lot for your prompt reaction, this list is a real > "kaly??akalpataru"! > > Happy to receive Dr. B. van Buitenen's film from Prof. Michael > Witzel? > and the Vajapeya Sacrifice booklet Pune 1955 ?from Prof. Madhav > Deshpande > THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Thanks to Dr. Herman Tull for additional?information about Van > Buitenen's papers. > > With great respect and best wishes > Cordially Yours > Natalia? > > ??, 13 ????. 2021 ?. ? 18:47, NK : > >> Dear colleagues, >> Would anyone happen to have?V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee >> manual: >> _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya >> Performance Committee, 1955 .? >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona >> and? >> 13-page unpublished??typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" >> (1956)??accompanying the film. >> >> With thanks and best wishes,? >> Yours, >> Natalia Korneeva > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sun Feb 14 22:07:07 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 21 17:07:07 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Jean Michel wrote: > Are there also GaNita or Siddhaanta manuscripts available ? I > mean, through the Muktabodha IRI. > I don't think so, but I could be wrong. There are three collections in the Muktabodha digital library with easily searchable indexes. 1) The vedic manuscripts from Gokarna 2) The Shaiva-siddhanta paper transcripts from the IFP/EFEO in Pondicherry 3) A searchable etext library of tantric manuscripts All three accessable from https://etexts.muktabodha.org/digital_library.htm Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From borayin.larios at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 06:56:31 2021 From: borayin.larios at gmail.com (Borayin M. Larios) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 07:56:31 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear all, I would also be interested in the film. I have a so so copy of the booklet that I could scan in case Prof. Deshpande can't find his copy. Thank you so much. Best wishes, Borayin On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 23:07 Harry Spier, wrote: > > > > > Jean Michel wrote: > >> Are there also GaNita or Siddhaanta manuscripts available ? I >> mean, through the Muktabodha IRI. >> > > I don't think so, but I could be wrong. There are three collections in > the Muktabodha digital library with easily searchable indexes. > 1) The vedic manuscripts from Gokarna > 2) The Shaiva-siddhanta paper transcripts from the IFP/EFEO in Pondicherry > 3) A searchable etext library of tantric manuscripts > > All three accessable from > https://etexts.muktabodha.org/digital_library.htm > > Harry Spier > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From borayin.larios at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 06:58:42 2021 From: borayin.larios at gmail.com (Borayin M. Larios) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 07:58:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Download link for the Vajapeya booklet 1955 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Prof. Deshpande, I see that you were indeed faster than I thought. Thank you very much. Best wishes, Borayin On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 20:11 Madhav Deshpande, wrote: > Dear friends, > > I scanned the Vajapeya Sacrfice booklet from Pune 1955. Here is the > download link for it. It will last for a week. > > https://we.tl/t-6MFS5kVBkX > > Best wishes, > > Madhav M. Deshpande > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies > Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India > > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From royce.wiles at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 08:09:41 2021 From: royce.wiles at gmail.com (Royce Wiles) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 21:09:41 +1300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Nitti-Dolci_on_Puru=E1=B9=A3ottama's_Pr=C4=81k=E1=B9=9Bt=C4=81nu=C5=9B=C4=81sana?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Our list has not disappointed and I now have a PDF of the Nitti-Dolci thesis thanks to Andrew Ollett (much obliged). R > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2021 at 3:17 PM Royce Wiles > wrote: > Hi > > Reading through Nitti-Dolci?s insightful 1938 survey of Prakrit grammars I have produced a draft schematic overview (PDF attached here I hope) of her main comments for my own use (thought to share just in case it is helpful to anyone else). > > I have though, also been trying to locate a copy (hard or soft) of her 1938 thesis (citation below) but the usual sources (internet.archive, Scribd, Abebooks, etc.) have not produced a copy. > > Does anyone have a PDF of this study to share I wonder? > > Royce WILES > > 1938 *?Le ?Prakrtanusasana? de Purusottama : the?se comple?mentaire pour le doctorat de?s lettres pre?sente?e? / par Luigia Nitti-Dolci. Paris ; Ma?con : Impr. de Protat fre?res, 1938. xxvii, 144 p. (Cahiers de la Socie?te? asiatique. no. 6). Includes French translation. ?[?]uvre magistralement ex?cut?e? (Louis Renou, 1938, review of Nitti-Dolci?s 1938 book, Journal asiatique 1938: 159). > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james.hartzell at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 09:52:30 2021 From: james.hartzell at gmail.com (James Hartzell) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 10:52:30 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1E561B9C-DB05-4F86-9C6C-0F2BE4EF28E8@gmail.com> I would also appreciate copies of the films > On 15 Feb 2021, at 07:56, Borayin M. Larios wrote: > > ? > Dear all, > > I would also be interested in the film. I have a so so copy of the booklet that I could scan in case Prof. Deshpande can't find his copy. > > Thank you so much. > > Best wishes, > Borayin > > >> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 23:07 Harry Spier, wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Jean Michel wrote: >>> Are there also GaNita or Siddhaanta manuscripts available ? I >>> mean, through the Muktabodha IRI. >> >> I don't think so, but I could be wrong. There are three collections in the Muktabodha digital library with easily searchable indexes. >> 1) The vedic manuscripts from Gokarna >> 2) The Shaiva-siddhanta paper transcripts from the IFP/EFEO in Pondicherry >> 3) A searchable etext library of tantric manuscripts >> >> All three accessable from https://etexts.muktabodha.org/digital_library.htm >> >> Harry Spier >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 10:04:21 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 11:04:21 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Vedic studies and vimeo-channel on Vedic ritual Message-ID: Dear All, Thanks Natalia for having asked about the 1955 brochure of the Vaajapeya Anu.s.thaana Samiti, Poona and on J.A.B. van Buitenen's 1955 film on the Vaajapeya and the accompanying typescript; and thanks Madhav and Michael and others for having provided authentic information on these. Michael, you refer to a Pravargya performed in Delhi around a decade later, that would be around 1965. Perhaps there was at that time a big Soma ritual in Delhi, but I believe that the performance of large Vedic rituals was not yet that fashionable at that time. The urge to perform such rituals first in the areas where they were still marginally surviving or being regularly reinvented and adapted to the very new and rapidly evolving circumstances of the twentieth century -- mainly in Maharashtra (see now the recent sociological study by Borayin) and India's southern states -- and next to go with these 'treasuries' of symbolic value to the Raajadhaanii came a little later, one or two decades after Staal's recording of the 'last' great Vedic ritual in 1975 in Kerala, that is, in, at that time, strongly Kommunist Kerala (which was, in the Indian context, still a combination of communism and capitalism, the electricity company advertised itself extensively with slogans such as "power to the people" according to first-hand information provided to me by Henk Bodewitz, who assisted at that Vedic ritual: just to show that Vedic ritual, if it survives and wants to survive, adjusts to any political system that is in place). I am, however, aware of the performance of a Pravargya in the context of a Paundarika Ekadasha Ratra Soma ritual that took place not one but ca. four decades after the Vaajapeya in Poona, namely in 1996 in Delhi (yajamaana: Selukar Maharaj from Maharashtra). A few years later I produced a film on the basis of my footage with the help of professional ethnographic filmmakers Dirk Nijland and Nandini Bedi; this film I made available in the form of a VHS cassette that appeared in Leiden in 1999. At present two of in total three parts of this film have been made again available (third and last to follow soon) on my vimeo-channel on vedic ritual (vimeo.com/channels/vedicritual), which also contains other material on the study and performance of Vedic ritual -- incidentally, I received feedback from several colleagues who find these short documentary pieces useful in their introductory classes on Sanskrit and Vedic studies. With best regards to all, Jan Houben -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * *Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120)* *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natankor at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 10:45:41 2021 From: natankor at gmail.com (NK) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 13:45:41 +0300 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Prof. Madhav Deshpande posted a link for a wonderful copy of the Vajapeya booklet 1955 (see another thread). if someone is interested in a light searchable B/W pdf of it, please, get it here: https://disk.yandex.ru/i/diM7CJRZQzzHOw With great respect and best wishes Cordially Yours Natalia ??, 13 ????. 2021 ?. ? 18:47, NK : > Dear colleagues, > Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: > *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya > Performance Committee, 1955 . > And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and > 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" > (1956) accompanying the film. > > With thanks and best wishes, > Yours, > Natalia Korneeva > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 11:13:24 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 12:13:24 +0100 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Natalia, Thanks / Spasibo ! I figured that ??????? must mean Download and it worked out well. In this brochure I could not find any hint about one important aspect of this 1955 performance: that it was filmed! At that time this was an enormous undertaking, with separate instruments for recording image and sound. I read or saw on some picture that van Buitenen had mobilized a whole team and some scaffolding for the filming and separate sound recording of this event, so it is hard to believe that the Samiti was not aware of this. Hence in van Buitenen's film, which *does* mention the Vaajapeya Anu.s.thaana Samiti, one of the acknowledgements -- a little difficult to read -- states: "Assembled by: Stichting Film en Wetenschap, Universitaire Film, Utrecht" This Dutch Stichting Film en Wetenschap was just established in 1955, and continues at present under the name Nederlands Instituut voor Beeld en Geluid. Due to the poor quality of this historic recording it is difficult to recognise persons and faces, but at 07 min 31 seconds it is unmistakably Prof. R.N. Dandekar who appears, walking next to the procession of the yajamaana and patnii and his fires from his home to the sacrificial area prepared at the SP College ground. Madhav, do you recognize any other persons in the film? Best regards to all, Jan Houben On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 11:46, NK wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Prof. Madhav Deshpande posted a link for a wonderful copy of the Vajapeya > booklet 1955 (see another thread). > if someone is interested in a light searchable B/W pdf of it, please, get > it here: > https://disk.yandex.ru/i/diM7CJRZQzzHOw > > With great respect and best wishes > Cordially Yours > Natalia > > ??, 13 ????. 2021 ?. ? 18:47, NK : > >> Dear colleagues, >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: >> *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya >> Performance Committee, 1955 . >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >> 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" >> (1956) accompanying the film. >> >> With thanks and best wishes, >> Yours, >> Natalia Korneeva >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 11:48:36 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 12:48:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE Message-ID: Dear All, The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. Please explore at https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. Best regards, Jan Houben -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 11:56:44 2021 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 12:56:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jan Many thanks, but unfortunately the link is to a: Ressource non trouv?e On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:48 PM Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear All, > The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique > des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some > of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences > religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological > (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. > Please explore at > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > Best regards, > Jan Houben > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kauzeya at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 12:03:31 2021 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 13:03:31 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Professorship in Tibetan Studies Message-ID: Dear Colleagues While not of course quite germane to this list, some of you may know candidates who might wish to notice this advertisement (I know nothing more than this, so don't contact me about this): *Open to new ideas. Since 1365.* As a research university with high international visibility and a wide range of degree programmes, the University of Vienna is committed to basic research open to application and research-led teaching, as well as to career development of young researchers and to the dialogue with economy and society. That way, the University of Vienna contributes to the education of future generations and to the society?s ability to innovate. The appointment of particularly qualified researchers to university professors is an important strategy of the University of Vienna. Become part of this vibrant and future-oriented organisation. At the Faculty of Philological and Cultural Studies of the University of Vienna the position of a *University Professor* *of* *Tibetan Studies* (full time, permanent position) is to be filled. As specified in the University?s Development Plan, this position is assigned to the thematic area ?Global Cultures and Identities? and its special research focus on ?Cultural and Social Transformations in Asia and Africa?. Applicants must have an excellent research and teaching record in Tibetan Studies. Philological competence and significant use of primary sources are required. The emphasis in teaching and research should lie in one or more of the following areas of Tibetan Studies: cultural and social history, intellectual history, or literary studies. Consideration of the social dimension is welcome. Candidates should have command of classical literary Tibetan and modern spoken Tibetan; knowledge of Sanskrit and Chinese is desirable. Readiness to cooperate especially with South Asian Studies at the Department as well as with other Asian Studies disciplines of the Faculty is expected, cooperation with Digital Humanities is desirable. *Successful candidates should have the following qualifications:* ? Doctoral degree/PhD and post-doctoral experience at a university or other research institution ? Habilitation (venia docendi) in a subject field relevant to this position or an internationally accepted equivalent qualification is desirable ? Outstanding achievements in research, excellent publication record, international reputation ? Experience in designing, procuring and managing large research projects, as well as the willingness and ability to lead research groups ? Enthusiasm for excellent teaching, teaching experience at universities as well as the ability and willingness to teach students in all phases of their studies (bachelor's, master's, or doctoral level), to supervise academic theses and to promoting young academic colleagues The University of Vienna expects the successful candidate to acquire, within three years, proficiency in German sufficient for teaching in bachelor?s programmes and for participation in university committees. In addition, the University of Vienna expects the successful candidate to be prepared to take over responsibility on the organisational level of the Faculty and the University, if necessary. *We offer:* ? a negotiable and attractive salary (classification according to the Collective Bargaining Agreement for University Staff , allocation to job group A1; section 98 of the Universities Act 2002); the salary will be individually negotiated under consideration of the previous career development and the current income situation ? in addition to the statutory social insurance, the University of Vienna offers a pension fund to its employees ? a ?start-up package?, in particular for the initiation of research projects ? a dynamic research location with well-established research funding provisions ? attractive working conditions in a city with a high quality of life ? comprehensive advice and support in relation to finding an accommodation, change of schools and dual career ? a wide range of support services offered by central service institutions The University of Vienna pursues a non-discriminatory employment policy and values equal opportunities, as well as diversity ( http://diversity.univie.ac.at ). The University puts special emphasis on increasing the number of women in senior and in academic positions. Given equal qualifications, preference will be given to female applicants. *Application documents:* ? *Application letter,* including a brief description of: ? current research interests and research plans for the immediate future ? current and planned foci in academic teaching and the supervision of young researchers ? *Academic curriculum vitae,* including information about ?esteem factors? (e.g. experience as a publisher, functions in research societies or programme committees) ? *List of publications*, including: ? specification of five key publications which the applicant considers particularly relevant to the advertised professorship ? provision of an Internet link for download or electronic submission of PDF versions of these five publications ? information about citations and impact factors, depending on the common practice in the relevant research area ? *List of talks given,* including information about invited keynote lectures at international conferences ? *Third-party funds* list of acquired third-party funds (subject, duration, origin, volume) as well as, if applicable, of inventions/patents ? *Overview of previous academic teaching and supervised theses, especially doctoral theses* ? *Teaching evaluations* (if available) ? *Copies of documents and certificates* Applications in German or English should be submitted, preferably in electronic form, to the Dean of the Faculty of Philological and Cultural Studies of the University of Vienna, Univ. Prof. Dr. Melanie Malzahn, Universit?tsring 1, A-1010 Wien, ?sterreich (dekanat-pkw at univie.ac.at). *Reference no.: 139-2021* The application deadline is *14 April 2021.* Privacy Policy -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Mon Feb 15 12:12:25 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 13:12:25 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jonathan, Hope you have survived the polar cold in the Netherlands so far... Somehow, the syllable "en" (in "enseignants") had disappeared in the link. The correct link is: https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-enseignants-chercheurs-2021 In the right hand margin you will see a section "T?l?charger", with downloadable files of which the last two contain positions potentially relevant to readers of the List: one entitled SHP: Profils des postes et dossiers de candidature and the other SR: Profils des postes et dossiers de candidature. As for the profiles advertised, they have been translated into English but mostly very clumsily, it is better to read them in French and otherwise even Google Translate can provide better translations... All best, Jan On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 12:57, Jonathan Silk wrote: > Dear Jan > > Many thanks, but unfortunately the link is to a: > Ressource non trouv?e > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:48 PM Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > >> Dear All, >> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique >> des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. >> This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some >> of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences >> religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological >> (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. >> Please explore at >> >> https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. >> Best regards, >> Jan Houben >> -- >> >> *Jan E.M. Houben* >> >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> >> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* >> >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >> >> *Sciences historiques et philologiques * >> >> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >> >> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * >> >> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> * >> >> *https://www.classicalindia.info* >> >> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, >> transmission >> >> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de Mon Feb 15 12:12:45 2021 From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 13:12:45 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9C40F631-D1B9-4376-8C98-E75E14AF128E@uni-bonn.de> The Link must be: >, there is missing an ?en? before ?seignants?. All the best Peter Wyzlic > Anfang der weitergeleiteten Nachricht: > > Von: Jonathan Silk > Betreff: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE > Datum: 15. Februar 2021 um 12:56:44 MEZ > An: "Jan E.M. Houben" > Kopie: Indology > > Dear Jan > > Many thanks, but unfortunately the link is to a: > Ressource non trouv?e > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 12:48 PM Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > Dear All, > The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. > Please explore at > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > Best regards, > Jan Houben > -- > Jan E.M. Houben > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > Sciences historiques et philologiques > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > https://www.classicalindia.info > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- L'Inde Classique augment?e: construction, transmission > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > -- > J. Silk > Leiden University > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > The Netherlands > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu > copies of my publications may be found at > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Bibliothek Universit?t Bonn Br?hler Stra?e 7 53119 Bonn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmdesh at umich.edu Mon Feb 15 13:44:33 2021 From: mmdesh at umich.edu (Madhav Deshpande) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 05:44:33 -0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jan, I was only 9 years old in 1955, but my parents did go and see parts of this event. This was in part because the late Professor Vidyadhar Bhide was a classmate of my father and Vidyadhar Bhide's father was a living Agnihotri who, from what I heard, had participated in this sacrifice. I remember visiting the Bhide home and seeing the Homakunda there. Also, right behind the grounds of the S.P. College, there was a M?m??s? P??ha??l?, and the people there may have participated in this performance. Besides the few Vedap??ha??l?s, Pune also had the Veda??strottejak Sabha established something around 1870s and this was still functional during my student days. I appeared for one of their examinations held in the Anandashrama. Madhav Madhav M. Deshpande Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 3:14 AM Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear Natalia, > Thanks / Spasibo ! > I figured that ??????? must mean Download and it worked out well. > In this brochure I could not find any hint about one important aspect of > this 1955 performance: that it was filmed! > At that time this was an enormous undertaking, with separate instruments > for recording image and sound. > I read or saw on some picture that van Buitenen had mobilized a whole team > and some scaffolding for the filming and separate sound recording of this > event, so it is hard to believe that the Samiti was not aware of this. > Hence in van Buitenen's film, which *does* mention the > Vaajapeya Anu.s.thaana Samiti, one of the acknowledgements -- a little > difficult to read -- states: > "Assembled by: Stichting Film en Wetenschap, Universitaire Film, Utrecht" > This Dutch Stichting Film en Wetenschap was just established in 1955, and > continues at present under the name Nederlands Instituut voor Beeld en > Geluid. > Due to the poor quality of this historic recording it is difficult to > recognise persons and faces, but at 07 min 31 seconds it is unmistakably > Prof. R.N. Dandekar who appears, walking next to the procession of the > yajamaana and patnii and his fires from his home to the sacrificial area > prepared at the SP College ground. Madhav, do you recognize any other > persons in the film? > Best regards to all, > Jan Houben > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 11:46, NK wrote: > >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Prof. Madhav Deshpande posted a link for a wonderful copy of the Vajapeya >> booklet 1955 (see another thread). >> if someone is interested in a light searchable B/W pdf of it, please, get >> it here: >> https://disk.yandex.ru/i/diM7CJRZQzzHOw >> >> With great respect and best wishes >> Cordially Yours >> Natalia >> >> ??, 13 ????. 2021 ?. ? 18:47, NK : >> >>> Dear colleagues, >>> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee manual: >>> *The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice*. Poona: V?japeya >>> Performance Committee, 1955 . >>> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >>> 13-page unpublished typescript "*Vajapeya: English commentary*" >>> (1956) accompanying the film. >>> >>> With thanks and best wishes, >>> Yours, >>> Natalia Korneeva >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de Mon Feb 15 15:26:41 2021 From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 16:26:41 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Deccan Heritage Lecture Series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues and friends, I would like to draw your attention to the following zoom-lecture series: >From Malabar to Coromandel Deccan Heritage, Art and Culture It will start in March. Kind regards, Julia Hegewald. > > > > Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald Professor of Oriental Art History Head of Department University of Bonn Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA) Department of Asian and Islamic Art History Adenauerallee 10 53113 Bonn Germany Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de www.aik.uni-bonn.de Tel. 0049-228-73 7213 Fax. 0049-228-73 4042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FinalPoster.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1178576 bytes Desc: not available URL: From finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu Mon Feb 15 17:29:14 2021 From: finnian_moore-gerety at brown.edu (Finnian Moore-Gerety) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 12:29:14 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0E3DFE31-02D5-4686-979E-651F3C538D5B@brown.edu> Dear colleagues? Some years ago a colleague shared a digital copy of this vanishingly hard-to-find film with me. You can download this large file (over 2GB!) from here for the next week. In addition, I?ve compiled a list of Multimedia Resources (Films and Videos, Audio Recordings, Archives) relating to modern Vedic traditions in my 2017 annotated bibliography on this topic for Oxford Bibliographies Online > Hinduism > ?Vedic Oral Tradition.? This document, complete with hyperlinks, is visible only behind library paywalls. Another caveat: the bibliography is a work-in-progress and is overdue for an update. If you notice significant omissions, please let me know and I will do my best to address them. Beyond that, alongside the efforts of Jan, Borayin, and others, my own multimedia projects relating to Vedic pedagogy and ritual performance in South India can be readily viewed online . Yours, Finnian Finnian M.M. Gerety Visiting Assistant Professor of Religious Studies [Affiliated] Faculty of Contemplative Studies and Center for Contemporary South Asia Brown University www.finniangerety.com > On Feb 13, 2021, at 2:37 PM, Witzel, Michael wrote: > > To all Vajapeyins: > > I have an electronic copy of the Poona performance, made a few years ago from a VCR cassette tape. > But it is around 650 MB, so I would have to send it to interested colleagues via WETRANSFER, so that you can download it. > > I also have a photocopy of the Vajapeya booklet, but it is in my (closed) office and it would have to be scanned. > Perhaps someone already has a scanned copy ? > > So please let me know. After a day or two I will send the film to interested parties. > > There also is a film of a Pravargya, done at Delhi, maybe a decade later. I think Jan Houben has it (as do I). > > Finally there are multiple snippets of the Pravargya as part of the 2011 Agnicayana held at Panjal, Kerala. Some are in Youtube, if you look for Atiratra (Athiraathra) [NB not the Indian cinema movie!). > > Best wishes, > > Michael > > >> On Feb 13, 2021, at 1:59 PM, Herman Tull > wrote: >> >> Are the materials Madhav cites the same as the Van Buitenen materials? >> >> David Knipe's book, Vedic Voices: Intimate Narratives of a Living Andhra Tradition, has an entry in the bibliography for Van Buitenen's 1956, 13-pg, unpublished typescript that accompanies the film. (Perhaps he has the typescript in his possession.)Also, the entry for Van Buitenen's papers, held at the UC library, suggests that there are at least field notes to the film in their collection (but perhaps not the actual typescript that accompanied the film). >> https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/scrc/findingaids/view.php?eadid=ICU.SPCL.BUITENEN#idp148150056 >> >> A 1977 multi-authored document written by Knipe, Morgan, Dell, McDermott, and Smith, "Focus on Hindusim: A-V Resources for Teaching Religion," indicates that even in 1977, the film was no longer to be found. >> >> This was brought up years ago in the Indology list. In 2010, Jarrod Whitaker sent out the following: >> >> Fri Nov 12 08:43:07 EST 2010 >> Does anyone know how I can get hold of a copy of the film: Atha Vajapeyah Somayagah: The Vajapeya Sacrifice produced by J.A.B. van Buitenen, 1955. My inter-library loan people sent me this message: "We have exhausted all possible ILL sources. >> There are no libraries that own this item that are ILL suppliers. Additionally, I have conducted online research and have been unable to locate the film as cited." >> >> Herman Tull >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 1:25 PM Alfred Hiltebeitel via INDOLOGY > wrote: >> >> I too would like t see this. Alf >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Feb 13, 2021, at 11:18 AM, jmdelire > wrote: >> > >> > Dear friends, >> > >> > I am also interested in receiving accesses to these very useful items >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Jean Michel Delire >> > >> > >> > Le 13.02.2021 16:47, NK a ?crit : >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> Would anyone happen to have V?japeya 1955 Performance Committee >> >> manual: >> >> _The ?rauta Ritual and the V?japeya Sacrifice_. Poona: V?japeya >> >> Performance Committee, 1955 . >> >> And the film by Dr J.A.B. van Buitenen of the V?japeya in Poona and >> >> 13-page unpublished typescript "_Vajapeya: English commentary_" >> >> (1956) accompanying the film. >> >> With thanks and best wishes, >> >> Yours, >> >> Natalia Korneeva >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> >> or unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ >> > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beitel at email.gwu.edu Mon Feb 15 18:28:23 2021 From: beitel at email.gwu.edu (Alfred Hiltebeitel) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 13:28:23 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Request_pdf,_film_V=C4=81japeya_1955,_Poona?= In-Reply-To: <1E561B9C-DB05-4F86-9C6C-0F2BE4EF28E8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017AAFFC-657D-498D-A788-152EE4E5A3B2@email.gwu.edu> Cn. I get get a copy of both too? Much appreciated, Alf Sent from my iPad > On Feb 15, 2021, at 4:52 AM, James Hartzell wrote: > > I would also appreciate copies of the films > >> On 15 Feb 2021, at 07:56, Borayin M. Larios wrote: >> >> ? >> Dear all, >> >> I would also be interested in the film. I have a so so copy of the booklet that I could scan in case Prof. Deshpande can't find his copy. >> >> Thank you so much. >> >> Best wishes, >> Borayin >> >> >>> On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 23:07 Harry Spier, wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jean Michel wrote: >>>> Are there also GaNita or Siddhaanta manuscripts available ? I >>>> mean, through the Muktabodha IRI. >>> >>> I don't think so, but I could be wrong. There are three collections in the Muktabodha digital library with easily searchable indexes. >>> 1) The vedic manuscripts from Gokarna >>> 2) The Shaiva-siddhanta paper transcripts from the IFP/EFEO in Pondicherry >>> 3) A searchable etext library of tantric manuscripts >>> >>> All three accessable from https://etexts.muktabodha.org/digital_library.htm >>> >>> Harry Spier >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Mon Feb 15 21:45:36 2021 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 21 22:45:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Download link for the Vajapeya booklet 1955 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, thank you very much, Madhav! --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pon., 15 lut 2021 o 07:59 Borayin M. Larios napisa?(a): > Dear Prof. Deshpande, > > I see that you were indeed faster than I thought. > > Thank you very much. > Best wishes, > Borayin > > On Sun, 14 Feb 2021, 20:11 Madhav Deshpande, wrote: > >> Dear friends, >> >> I scanned the Vajapeya Sacrfice booklet from Pune 1955. Here is the >> download link for it. It will last for a week. >> >> https://we.tl/t-6MFS5kVBkX >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Madhav M. Deshpande >> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics >> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA >> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies >> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, >> India >> >> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA] >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 01:13:42 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 21 02:13:42 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] vimeo.com/channels/vedicritual: updated channel description Message-ID: Dear All, In my updated vimeo channel description on Vedic Ritual I have added links to the great vimeo films of Finnian and to the links to Borayin's online foto's and video which he mentions on p. 230 of his recent book Embodying the Vedas. You are invited to share either your links or your relevant film-material on "Vedic fieldwork" for mention or publication on this channel together with a brief description and proper acknowledgements etc. In the category "study of the Veda" I hope to add soon a brief clip of the practice of students of the AV Paippalaada-samhita (no trace of any original accent but light "sing-song" style). Archiving such material is important because much precious material that even not so long ago existed seems irretrievably lost. Durgamohan Bhattacharya recorded Paippalaada recitation in the 1950s but gave the recordings perhaps to the All India Radio, probably impossible to find back. The short popularizing film of ca. 1 hour by Frits Staal and Robert Gardner is well known and available, but the numerous hours of detailed filming of each day of the 1975 Agnicayana performance should also be made accessible somewhere. When I viewed selected sections in Leiden in the late 1990s these films which were originally in color had already become almost entirely black and white! Best, Jan Houben *** *** *** *** *** *** vimeo.com/channels/vedicritual Updated Channel Description: The scientific study of Vedic ritual requires the analysis of ancient ritual manuals, Vedic hymns and verses, and familiarity with traditional and modern interpretative theories. The study of actual performances of the ancient rituals is indispensable. The channel *welcomes submissions* that contribute to understanding the structure and morphology of Vedic ritual in synchronic and diachronic perspective, esp. with regard to memory culture, natural and social environment, etc. ... Links to selected Vedic films and photos elsewhere on the internet: *** *** *** Finnian Moore-Gerety: Great Vimeo films (mostly) on Vedic ritual performance and study in Kerala https://vimeo.com/user10256084 *** *** *** Borayin M. Larios Images of Vedic schools by Borayin M. Larios: https://flickr.com/photos/shrimaitreya/sets/72157617420581644 Short film by Borayin M. Larios, "Embodying the Vedas -- A day at the Sri Krsnayajurveda Pathasala": youtu.be/ALEHkgOx8EE *** *** *** *** *** *** -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From borayin.larios at gmail.com Tue Feb 16 07:54:47 2021 From: borayin.larios at gmail.com (Borayin M. Larios) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 21 08:54:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: vimeo.com/channels/vedicritual: updated channel description In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Jan, Thank you so much for your resources and for referencing my own work on your channel. I hope that some colleagues will find it useful. Unfortunately, towards the end of my fieldwork, I lost many hours of recordings of Vedic rituals and recitation styles when my computer broke down and I could only rescue a few things from the damaged hard drive. Luckily today there are many resources available online and otherwise than a few decades ago. Just today I was listening to Day 92 of 200 *Sampoorna Rigveda Ghanaparayanam by Kanchi mutt's Pazhur & Truvanaikovil Pathashala* students on Facebook. The recordings are also available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-5NdQ7kG-gXeRRdCZGwyyg/videos in case someone is interested in listening to this very difficult recitation style. I gave up collecting in a systematic manner all the material on Vedic recitation and Vedic ritual found on the internet today, but it would be a project worth pursuing. In any case, thank you so much, Jan, for sharing also my material with the rest of the list. Best wishes, Borayin On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 02:14, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear All, > In my updated vimeo channel description on Vedic Ritual I have added links > to the great vimeo films of Finnian and to the links to Borayin's online > foto's and video which he mentions on p. 230 of his recent book Embodying > the Vedas. You are invited to share either your links or your relevant > film-material on "Vedic fieldwork" for mention or publication on this > channel together with a brief description and proper acknowledgements etc. > In the category "study of the Veda" I hope to add soon a brief clip of the > practice of students of the AV Paippalaada-samhita (no trace of any > original accent but light "sing-song" style). > Archiving such material is important because much precious material that > even not so long ago existed seems irretrievably lost. > Durgamohan Bhattacharya recorded Paippalaada recitation in the 1950s but > gave the recordings perhaps to the All India Radio, probably impossible to > find back. > The short popularizing film of ca. 1 hour by Frits Staal and Robert > Gardner is well known and available, but the numerous hours of detailed > filming of each day of the 1975 Agnicayana performance should also be made > accessible somewhere. When I viewed selected sections in Leiden in the late > 1990s these films which were originally in color had already become almost > entirely black and white! > Best, > Jan Houben > *** *** *** > *** *** *** > vimeo.com/channels/vedicritual > Updated Channel Description: > The scientific study of Vedic ritual requires the analysis of ancient > ritual manuals, Vedic hymns and verses, and familiarity with traditional > and modern interpretative theories. The study of actual performances of the > ancient rituals is indispensable. The channel *welcomes submissions* that > contribute to understanding the structure and morphology of Vedic ritual in > synchronic and diachronic perspective, esp. with regard to memory culture, > natural and social environment, etc. ... > Links to selected Vedic films and photos elsewhere on the internet: > *** *** *** > Finnian Moore-Gerety: > Great Vimeo films (mostly) on Vedic ritual performance and study in Kerala > https://vimeo.com/user10256084 > *** *** *** > Borayin M. Larios > Images of Vedic schools by Borayin M. Larios: > https://flickr.com/photos/shrimaitreya/sets/72157617420581644 > Short film by Borayin M. Larios, "Embodying the Vedas -- A day at the > Sri Krsnayajurveda Pathasala": > youtu.be/ALEHkgOx8EE > *** *** *** > *** *** *** > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- ___________________ Dr. lic. phil. Borayin Larios Institut f?r S?dasien-, Tibet- und Buddhismuskunde Bereich S?dasienkunde Uni-Campus AAKh, Hof 2.1 Spitalgasse 2-4 A-1090 Wien Office: +431427743518 Mobile: +43 676 5530274 (new) about.me/borayin.larios https://borayinlarios.academia.edu/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spezialef at yahoo.com Tue Feb 16 15:09:09 2021 From: spezialef at yahoo.com (Fabrizio Speziale) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 21 15:09:09 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Fw:_Master=E2=80=99s_degree_in_"Asian_Studies"_(EHESS-EPHE/PSL-EFEO)_=E2=80=93_Open_for_registration_2021/2022?= In-Reply-To: <540867365.71502924.1613482276769.JavaMail.zimbra@ehess.fr> Message-ID: <2043250035.1779123.1613488149538@mail.yahoo.com> Applications for the Master's degree in Human and Social Sciences, ?Asian Studies? are open from February 2020 onwards, according to a three-phase registration schedule: - February 22 - April 21, 2021 - May 24 - June 25, 2021 - August 23 - September 10, 2021 The Master's degree in Asian Studies is a multidisciplinary training at M1-M2 level,?organized around two tracks of study: - Track 1: "History and social sciences: fields, texts and images" (EHESS-EFEO) Apply online through the?student portal at EHESS Contact: etudesasiatiques at ehess.fr - Track 2: "History, philology and religions" (EPHE/PSL-EFEO) Apply online through the?student portal at PSL?????????????????????????????? Contact:?olivier.venture at ephe.psl.eu Oriented towards research in the field of human and social sciences, this specialized training offer is unique in France. It offers integrated training where each identified cultural area is addressed through a methodology specific to each discipline. The MA Asian Studies educational team encourages students to expand their reflection beyond a single cultural or linguistic area and to embrace a multidisciplinary and comparative approach to their subject of study. The MA Asian Studies also pays particular great attention to field mobility in Asia. Funding is secured by its partner institutions (EHESS, EPHE, EFEO) for student?s fieldwork in order to adequately prepare the M2 dissertation. The MA Asian Studies (M1 and M2) is directed to graduate students in the field of human and social sciences. It may, however, concern professionals (journalists, librarians, consultants, etc.) wishing to enhance their knowledge of Asian societies. In addition to the compulsory knowledge of French and English, a partial or total fluency of an Asian vernacular language is recommended, and sometimes depending on their research projects. You are cordially encouraged to forward this announcement to students who might be interested in this type of training. More detailed information on the?dedicated website. Download here the student guide. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG-20201211-WA0008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 234483 bytes Desc: not available URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Wed Feb 17 17:36:52 2021 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 21 18:36:52 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Puranas Message-ID: Dear indologists, anyone can help me to identify on which published edition or manuscript are based the following translations: Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1981. *The K?rma-Pur??a. *vol. 1 of 2. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass*.* Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1985. *The Brahm?pur??a. Translated and Annotated by a Board of Scholars*. vol. 1 of 4. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1998. *The Li?gapur??a*. *Translated by a Board of Scholars*. vol. 2 of 2. Delhi/Patna/Varanasi: Motilal Banarsidass. Tagare, Ganesh V., ed., 1992. *The Skandapur??a*. *Translated and Annotated* . Vol. 1 of 23. New Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Tagare, Ganesh V. ed., 1987. *V?yupur??a:* *Translated and Annotated*. Vol. 1 of 2. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. Best wishes, Paolo -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo **ER **osati/ * paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhakgirish at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 12:23:00 2021 From: jhakgirish at gmail.com (Girish Jha) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 21 17:53:00 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] The link to the Tattva bindu of Vachaspati Misra with Hindi translation by Brij Kishore Tripathi. Message-ID: Dear Indologists, I would be grateful if anyone could take trouble to give me the Link to the above book for free download. Regards Girish K.Jha Univ.Professor(Retd) Dept of Sanskrit Patna Univ.,India Residence:Kolkata -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 16:54:32 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 21 09:54:32 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > Dear All, > The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique > des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some > of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences > religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological > (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. > Please explore at > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > > "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many countries hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the first two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal international practice. Best, Dominik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jemhouben at gmail.com Thu Feb 18 22:53:07 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 21 23:53:07 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness which has been traditionally theirs ...) On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk wrote: > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > >> Dear All, >> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique >> des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. >> This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some >> of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences >> religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological >> (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. >> Please explore at >> >> https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. >> >> > "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many countries hire > professors on the understanding that if they don't know the indigenous > language they will commit to learning it within the first two years of > tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal international practice. > > Best, > Dominik > -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Fri Feb 19 08:53:58 2021 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 09:53:58 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Having myself French as mother language, I always had the feeling that the education system in France is not particularly open to non French students or teachers. Of course, it is different in the world of research. Just an example : we have in Belgium thousands of French students in our Universities or Hautes Ecoles, because our education system is quite open, while it is particularly difficult for a Belgian to study in France. Jean Michel Le 18.02.2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit?: > sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la > science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la > richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... > > (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, > science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness > which has been traditionally theirs ...) > > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > >> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben >> wrote: >> >>> Dear All, >>> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole >>> Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. >>> This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" >>> but some of the?positions in Sciences historiques et >>> philologiques?or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory >>> accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or buddhological >>> applications. >>> Please explore at >>> >> > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >>> [1] >>> >>> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite.? >> >> "of course"?? No, this is not obvious or normal.? Many countries >> hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the >> indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the first >> two years of tenure.? As far as I am aware, that is normal >> international practice. ?? >> >> Best, >> Dominik > > -- > > JAN E.M. HOUBEN > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > _Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite_ > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > _SCIENCES HISTORIQUES ET PHILOLOGIQUES?_ > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes?(EA 2120) > > _johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu_ > > _https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2]_ > > _https://www.classicalindia.info_ [3] > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- _L'Inde Classique_ augment?e: construction, > transmission? > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > [3] https://www.classicalindia.info > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > or unsubscribe) From kauzeya at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 09:05:08 2021 From: kauzeya at gmail.com (Jonathan Silk) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 10:05:08 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems like perhaps it is possible that Jan has not quite addressed Dominik's point: I did not read him as rejecting the use of French, only the condition that fluency is a requirement *for application*. For instance, although one might expect a Spanish or Italian speaker to be able to ramp up to working fluency in two years, this seems to be ruled out. NB: As far as I know, the requirement for fluency in German in German and Austrian universities, and in Dutch here in the Netherlands, is normally specified as "within two years," and at least it used to be the case that the university provided support for language training. Jan, himself Dutch, is surely aware that most people in the world were not able to benefit from the excellent gymnasium training he received in which language acquisition was strongly present (and a further note: this is increasingly not the case even in the top gynmasia here, where so-called beta tracks [natural sciences] have largely taken over, for completely understandable reasons.) So what we seem to come down to is an implicit interest in preventing non-French scholars from even applying...(which Dominik was of course too polite to say in so many words) Jonathan On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:54 AM jmdelire wrote: > Having myself French as mother language, I always had the feeling that > the education system in France is not particularly open to non French > students or teachers. Of course, it is different in the world of > research. > Just an example : we have in Belgium thousands of French students in our > Universities or Hautes Ecoles, because our education system is quite > open, while it is particularly difficult for a Belgian to study in > France. > > Jean Michel > > > Le 18.02.2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit : > > sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la > > science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la > > richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... > > > > (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, > > science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness > > which has been traditionally theirs ...) > > > > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk > > wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Dear All, > >>> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole > >>> Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > >>> This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" > >>> but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et > >>> philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory > >>> accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or buddhological > >>> applications. > >>> Please explore at > >>> > >> > > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > >>> [1] > >>> > >>> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > >> > >> "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many countries > >> hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the > >> indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the first > >> two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal > >> international practice. > >> > >> Best, > >> Dominik > > > > -- > > > > JAN E.M. HOUBEN > > > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > > > _Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite_ > > > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > > > _SCIENCES HISTORIQUES ET PHILOLOGIQUES _ > > > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > > > _johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu_ > > > > _https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2]_ > > > > _https://www.classicalindia.info_ [3] > > > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- _L'Inde Classique_ augment?e: construction, > > transmission > > > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > > [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > [3] https://www.classicalindia.info > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options > > or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- J. Silk Leiden University Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b 2311 BZ Leiden The Netherlands website: www.OpenPhilology.eu copies of my publications may be found at https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Fri Feb 19 07:50:37 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 08:50:37 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2241902d-5217-8897-9854-2aa8628d4307@univ-paris-diderot.fr> ?Canada is also home to many indigenous languages. Taken together, these are spoken by less than one percent of the population. About 0.6% Canadians (or 200,725 people) report an Indigenous language as their mother tongue? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Canada Languages of Canada From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia On 18/02/2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben wrote: > sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la > science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la > richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... > (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, > science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness > which has been traditionally theirs ...) > > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: > > Dear All, > The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole > Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" > but some of the?positions in Sciences historiques et > philologiques?or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory > accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or > buddhological applications. > Please explore at > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > > A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > > > "of course"?? No, this is not obvious or normal.? Many countries > hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the > indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the first > two years of tenure.? As far as I am aware, that is normal > international practice. > > Best, > Dominik > > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > /Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite/ > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > /*Sciences historiques et philologiques */ > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > /johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu / > > /https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > / > > /https://www.classicalindia.info/ > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- /L'Inde Classique/augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > From jmdelire at ulb.ac.be Fri Feb 19 09:43:25 2021 From: jmdelire at ulb.ac.be (jmdelire) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 10:43:25 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <81bb454a1e529942e8e6e2c663de2404@imapproxy.vub.ac.be> Another example, which perhaps is not to be generalized : a year ago, I was informed that a position as Professor of History of mathematics would be opened at the University of Wuppertal (Germany). I went into contact by email with two professors there, and all our exchanges were in English. I was told that my CV was perfect for the position, which implies the training of future math teachers. But, when I asked if I could teach in English for a year or two (before becoming able to do it in German, a language of which I have a passive knowledge), it was answered that this would not be possible. I applied nonetheless, but received no invitation to an interview, probably due to the pandemy. Jean Michel Le 19.02.2021 10:05, Jonathan Silk a ?crit?: > It seems like perhaps it is possible that Jan has not quite addressed > Dominik's point: I did not read him as rejecting the use of French, > only the condition that fluency is a requirement _for application_. > > For instance, although one might expect a Spanish or Italian speaker > to be able to ramp up to working fluency in two years, this seems to > be ruled out. NB: As far as I know, the requirement for fluency in > German in German and Austrian universities, and in Dutch here in the > Netherlands, is normally specified as "within two years," and at least > it used to be the case that the university provided support for > language training. > > Jan, himself Dutch, is surely aware that most people in the world were > not able to benefit from the excellent gymnasium training he received > in which language acquisition was strongly present (and a further > note: this is increasingly not the case even in the top gynmasia here, > where so-called beta tracks [natural sciences] have largely taken > over, for completely understandable reasons.) > > So what we seem to come down to is an implicit interest in preventing > non-French scholars from even applying...(which Dominik was of course > too polite to say in so many words) > > Jonathan > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:54 AM jmdelire wrote: > >> Having myself French as mother language, I always had the feeling >> that >> the education system in France is not particularly open to non >> French >> students or teachers. Of course, it is different in the world of >> research. >> Just an example : we have in Belgium thousands of French students >> in our >> Universities or Hautes Ecoles, because our education system is >> quite >> open, while it is particularly difficult for a Belgian to study in >> France. >> >> Jean Michel >> >> Le 18.02.2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit?: >>> sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et >> linguistique, la >>> science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de >> la >>> richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... >>> >>> (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, >>> science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the >> richness >>> which has been traditionally theirs ...) >>> >>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk >> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dear All, >>>>> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the >> ?cole >>>>> Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. >>>>> This time, none of the open positions are directly >> "indological" >>>>> but some of the?positions in Sciences historiques et >>>>> philologiques?or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory >>>>> accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or >> buddhological >>>>> applications. >>>>> Please explore at >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> [1] >>>>> [1] >>>>> >>>>> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite.? >>>> >>>> "of course"?? No, this is not obvious or normal.? Many >> countries >>>> hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the >>>> indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the >> first >>>> two years of tenure.? As far as I am aware, that is normal >>>> international practice. ?? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dominik >>> >>> -- >>> >>> JAN E.M. HOUBEN >>> >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and >> Philology >>> >>> _Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite_ >>> >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et >> Lettres) >>> >>> _SCIENCES HISTORIQUES ET PHILOLOGIQUES?_ >>> >>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes?(EA 2120) >>> >>> _johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu_ >>> >>> _https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2] [2]_ >>> >>> _https://www.classicalindia.info_ [3] [3] >>> >>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- _L'Inde Classique_ augment?e: >> construction, >>> transmission? >>> >>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >>> >>> Links: >>> ------ >>> [1] >>> >> > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> [1] >>> [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2] >>> [3] https://www.classicalindia.info [4] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >> managing >>> committee) >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [5] (where you can change your list >> options >>> or unsubscribe) >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info [5] (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > -- > > J. Silk > Leiden University > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > 2311 BZ Leiden > > The Netherlands > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu [6] > > copies of my publications may be found at > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk [7] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > [3] https://www.classicalindia.info_ > [4] https://www.classicalindia.info > [5] http://listinfo.indology.info > [6] http://www.OpenPhilology.eu > [7] https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk From jemhouben at gmail.com Fri Feb 19 13:20:20 2021 From: jemhouben at gmail.com (Jan E.M. Houben) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 14:20:20 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: <81bb454a1e529942e8e6e2c663de2404@imapproxy.vub.ac.be> Message-ID: Dear Dominik, Dear Jonathan, Dear Jean-Michel, Did anyone download the relevant document and read the requirements? Even I had missed one passage, because I now see that here it says clearly: "R?daction : Le fran?ais et l?anglais sont accept?s pour tous vos documents" So: nihil obstat for those who want to apply in English. My remark reflected no legal condition but a personal estimation which is perhaps no more valid. Even apart from any intention to apply or not to apply for the positions now posted, knowledge of French (and German) should be considered highly recommendable for anyone studying and teaching in the domain of Indology -- including in officially bi- and multi-lingual Canada :) -- in view of the extensive scientific literature on Sanskrit, Vedic studies etc. available in these languages. In our EPHE-SHP we do have several international colleagues, including from Belgium. Even then I experience that France participates more strongly in a "romance languages" intellectual circuit with students and colleagues from Italy, Spain, South America etc. whereas what I remember from my active participation in academic life in the Netherlands is that it has become more and more strongly Anglo-Saxon oriented, esp. since the late 1990s. But Willem Caland, Utrecht, still published extensively in German and co-produced a major publication in French together with his French colleague Victor Henry ( L'Agnistoma, tome I-II, 1906-1907). On the other hand, Louis Renou learned sufficient Dutch in order to read Willem Caland's scientific publications in Dutch (Suutra-aanwinsten, Over en uit het Jaiminiiya, etc.). If we come to Vedic studies, the full or partial translations by Ludwig, Bergaigne, Caland, Renou, Elizarenkova now Jamison & Brereton ... are to be read in their original languages. >From whatever I have understood of another major language of the world, Chinese, I estimate that it will be entirely impossible to capture the nuances of different interpretations expressed in these translations into German, French, Russian, English, without enormous footnotes at each subjunctive, injunctive, imperative, at each explicit or elliptic use of a form of 'to be' ... Perhaps a translation into Chinese can at the most aspire to be a close paraphrase... By contrast, this shows the importance of having different interpretations of Vedic ritual poetry and Vedic literature into German, French, Russian and English... (and of course into Polish...). All best, Jan On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 at 10:43, jmdelire wrote: > Another example, which perhaps is not to be generalized : a year ago, I > was informed that a position as Professor of History of mathematics > would be opened at the University of Wuppertal (Germany). I went into > contact by email with two professors there, and all our exchanges were > in English. I was told that my CV was perfect for the position, which > implies the training of future math teachers. But, when I asked if I > could teach in English for a year or two (before becoming able to do it > in German, a language of which I have a passive knowledge), it was > answered that this would not be possible. I applied nonetheless, but > received no invitation to an interview, probably due to the pandemy. > > Jean Michel > > > Le 19.02.2021 10:05, Jonathan Silk a ?crit : > > It seems like perhaps it is possible that Jan has not quite addressed > > Dominik's point: I did not read him as rejecting the use of French, > > only the condition that fluency is a requirement _for application_. > > > > For instance, although one might expect a Spanish or Italian speaker > > to be able to ramp up to working fluency in two years, this seems to > > be ruled out. NB: As far as I know, the requirement for fluency in > > German in German and Austrian universities, and in Dutch here in the > > Netherlands, is normally specified as "within two years," and at least > > it used to be the case that the university provided support for > > language training. > > > > Jan, himself Dutch, is surely aware that most people in the world were > > not able to benefit from the excellent gymnasium training he received > > in which language acquisition was strongly present (and a further > > note: this is increasingly not the case even in the top gynmasia here, > > where so-called beta tracks [natural sciences] have largely taken > > over, for completely understandable reasons.) > > > > So what we seem to come down to is an implicit interest in preventing > > non-French scholars from even applying...(which Dominik was of course > > too polite to say in so many words) > > > > Jonathan > > > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:54 AM jmdelire wrote: > > > >> Having myself French as mother language, I always had the feeling > >> that > >> the education system in France is not particularly open to non > >> French > >> students or teachers. Of course, it is different in the world of > >> research. > >> Just an example : we have in Belgium thousands of French students > >> in our > >> Universities or Hautes Ecoles, because our education system is > >> quite > >> open, while it is particularly difficult for a Belgian to study in > >> France. > >> > >> Jean Michel > >> > >> Le 18.02.2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit : > >>> sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et > >> linguistique, la > >>> science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de > >> la > >>> richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... > >>> > >>> (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, > >>> science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the > >> richness > >>> which has been traditionally theirs ...) > >>> > >>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk > >> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben > >> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Dear All, > >>>>> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the > >> ?cole > >>>>> Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > >>>>> This time, none of the open positions are directly > >> "indological" > >>>>> but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et > >>>>> philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory > >>>>> accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or > >> buddhological > >>>>> applications. > >>>>> Please explore at > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > >> [1] > >>>>> [1] > >>>>> > >>>>> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > >>>> > >>>> "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many > >> countries > >>>> hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the > >>>> indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the > >> first > >>>> two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal > >>>> international practice. > >>>> > >>>> Best, > >>>> Dominik > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> JAN E.M. HOUBEN > >>> > >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and > >> Philology > >>> > >>> _Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite_ > >>> > >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et > >> Lettres) > >>> > >>> _SCIENCES HISTORIQUES ET PHILOLOGIQUES _ > >>> > >>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > >>> > >>> _johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu_ > >>> > >>> _https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2] [2]_ > >>> > >>> _https://www.classicalindia.info_ [3] [3] > >>> > >>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- _L'Inde Classique_ augment?e: > >> construction, > >>> transmission > >>> > >>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > >>> > >>> Links: > >>> ------ > >>> [1] > >>> > >> > > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > >> [1] > >>> [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2] > >>> [3] https://www.classicalindia.info [4] > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's > >> managing > >>> committee) > >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [5] (where you can change your list > >> options > >>> or unsubscribe) > >> _______________________________________________ > >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > >> committee) > >> http://listinfo.indology.info [5] (where you can change your list > >> options or unsubscribe) > > > > -- > > > > J. Silk > > Leiden University > > > > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS > > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b > > 2311 BZ Leiden > > > > The Netherlands > > > > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu [6] > > > > copies of my publications may be found at > > > > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk [7] > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] > > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > > [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > > [3] https://www.classicalindia.info_ > > [4] https://www.classicalindia.info > > [5] http://listinfo.indology.info > > [6] http://www.OpenPhilology.eu > > [7] https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- *Jan E.M. Houben* Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) *Sciences historiques et philologiques * Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben * *https://www.classicalindia.info* LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl Fri Feb 19 13:36:34 2021 From: j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl (Joanna Jurewicz) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 14:36:34 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Jan! Best regards, Joanna --- Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz Katedra Azji Po?udniowej /Chair of South Asia Studies Wydzia? Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw ul. Krakowskie Przedmie?cie 26/28 00-927 Warszawa , Poland Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages College of Human Sciences UNISA Pretoria, RSA Member of Academia Europaea https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz pt., 19 lut 2021 o 14:20 Jan E.M. Houben napisa?(a): > Dear Dominik, Dear Jonathan, Dear Jean-Michel, > Did anyone download the relevant document and read the requirements? > Even I had missed one passage, because I now see that here > > it says clearly: > "R?daction : Le fran?ais et l?anglais sont accept?s pour tous vos > documents" > So: nihil obstat for those who want to apply in English. > My remark reflected no legal condition but a personal estimation which is > perhaps no more valid. > Even apart from any intention to apply or not to apply for the positions > now posted, knowledge of French (and German) should be considered highly > recommendable for anyone studying and teaching in the domain of Indology -- > including in officially bi- and multi-lingual Canada :) -- in view of the > extensive scientific literature on Sanskrit, Vedic studies etc. available > in these languages. > In our EPHE-SHP we do have several international colleagues, including > from Belgium. > Even then I experience that France participates more strongly in a > "romance languages" intellectual circuit with students and colleagues from > Italy, Spain, South America etc. whereas what I remember from my active > participation in academic life in the Netherlands is that it has become > more and more strongly Anglo-Saxon oriented, esp. since the late 1990s. But > Willem Caland, Utrecht, still published extensively in German and > co-produced a major publication in French together with his > French colleague Victor Henry ( L'Agnistoma, tome I-II, 1906-1907). On the > other hand, Louis Renou learned sufficient Dutch in order to read Willem > Caland's scientific publications in Dutch (Suutra-aanwinsten, Over en uit > het Jaiminiiya, etc.). > If we come to Vedic studies, the full or partial translations by Ludwig, > Bergaigne, Caland, Renou, Elizarenkova now Jamison & Brereton ... are to be > read in their original languages. > From whatever I have understood of another major language of the world, > Chinese, I estimate that it will be entirely impossible to capture the > nuances of different interpretations expressed in these translations into > German, French, Russian, English, without enormous footnotes at each > subjunctive, injunctive, imperative, at each explicit or elliptic use of a > form of 'to be' ... Perhaps a translation into Chinese can at the most > aspire to be a close paraphrase... By contrast, this shows the importance > of having different interpretations of Vedic ritual poetry and Vedic > literature into German, French, Russian and English... (and of course into > Polish...). > All best, > Jan > > On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 at 10:43, jmdelire wrote: > >> Another example, which perhaps is not to be generalized : a year ago, I >> was informed that a position as Professor of History of mathematics >> would be opened at the University of Wuppertal (Germany). I went into >> contact by email with two professors there, and all our exchanges were >> in English. I was told that my CV was perfect for the position, which >> implies the training of future math teachers. But, when I asked if I >> could teach in English for a year or two (before becoming able to do it >> in German, a language of which I have a passive knowledge), it was >> answered that this would not be possible. I applied nonetheless, but >> received no invitation to an interview, probably due to the pandemy. >> >> Jean Michel >> >> >> Le 19.02.2021 10:05, Jonathan Silk a ?crit : >> > It seems like perhaps it is possible that Jan has not quite addressed >> > Dominik's point: I did not read him as rejecting the use of French, >> > only the condition that fluency is a requirement _for application_. >> > >> > For instance, although one might expect a Spanish or Italian speaker >> > to be able to ramp up to working fluency in two years, this seems to >> > be ruled out. NB: As far as I know, the requirement for fluency in >> > German in German and Austrian universities, and in Dutch here in the >> > Netherlands, is normally specified as "within two years," and at least >> > it used to be the case that the university provided support for >> > language training. >> > >> > Jan, himself Dutch, is surely aware that most people in the world were >> > not able to benefit from the excellent gymnasium training he received >> > in which language acquisition was strongly present (and a further >> > note: this is increasingly not the case even in the top gynmasia here, >> > where so-called beta tracks [natural sciences] have largely taken >> > over, for completely understandable reasons.) >> > >> > So what we seem to come down to is an implicit interest in preventing >> > non-French scholars from even applying...(which Dominik was of course >> > too polite to say in so many words) >> > >> > Jonathan >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 9:54 AM jmdelire wrote: >> > >> >> Having myself French as mother language, I always had the feeling >> >> that >> >> the education system in France is not particularly open to non >> >> French >> >> students or teachers. Of course, it is different in the world of >> >> research. >> >> Just an example : we have in Belgium thousands of French students >> >> in our >> >> Universities or Hautes Ecoles, because our education system is >> >> quite >> >> open, while it is particularly difficult for a Belgian to study in >> >> France. >> >> >> >> Jean Michel >> >> >> >> Le 18.02.2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit : >> >>> sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et >> >> linguistique, la >> >>> science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de >> >> la >> >>> richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... >> >>> >> >>> (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, >> >>> science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the >> >> richness >> >>> which has been traditionally theirs ...) >> >>> >> >>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk >> >> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben >> >> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the >> >> ?cole >> >>>>> Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. >> >>>>> This time, none of the open positions are directly >> >> "indological" >> >>>>> but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et >> >>>>> philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory >> >>>>> accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or >> >> buddhological >> >>>>> applications. >> >>>>> Please explore at >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > >> https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> >> [1] >> >>>>> [1] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. >> >>>> >> >>>> "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many >> >> countries >> >>>> hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the >> >>>> indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the >> >> first >> >>>> two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal >> >>>> international practice. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> Dominik >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> JAN E.M. HOUBEN >> >>> >> >>> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and >> >> Philology >> >>> >> >>> _Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite_ >> >>> >> >>> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et >> >> Lettres) >> >>> >> >>> _SCIENCES HISTORIQUES ET PHILOLOGIQUES _ >> >>> >> >>> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >> >>> >> >>> _johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu_ >> >>> >> >>> _https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2] [2]_ >> >>> >> >>> _https://www.classicalindia.info_ [3] [3] >> >>> >> >>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- _L'Inde Classique_ augment?e: >> >> construction, >> >>> transmission >> >>> >> >>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> >>> >> >>> Links: >> >>> ------ >> >>> [1] >> >>> >> >> >> > >> https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> >> [1] >> >>> [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2] >> >>> [3] https://www.classicalindia.info [4] >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >> >> managing >> >>> committee) >> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info [5] (where you can change your list >> >> options >> >>> or unsubscribe) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> >> committee) >> >> http://listinfo.indology.info [5] (where you can change your list >> >> options or unsubscribe) >> > >> > -- >> > >> > J. Silk >> > Leiden University >> > >> > Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS >> > Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b >> > 2311 BZ Leiden >> > >> > The Netherlands >> > >> > website: www.OpenPhilology.eu [6] >> > >> > copies of my publications may be found at >> > >> > https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk [7] >> > >> > >> > Links: >> > ------ >> > [1] >> > >> https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> > [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> > [3] https://www.classicalindia.info_ >> > [4] https://www.classicalindia.info >> > [5] http://listinfo.indology.info >> > [6] http://www.OpenPhilology.eu >> > [7] https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > > > -- > > *Jan E.M. Houben* > > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > > *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite* > > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > > *Sciences historiques et philologiques * > > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) > > *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu * > > *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > * > > *https://www.classicalindia.info* > > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augment?e: construction, > transmission > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de Fri Feb 19 15:09:57 2021 From: zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de (Robert Zydenbos) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 16:09:57 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: <81bb454a1e529942e8e6e2c663de2404@imapproxy.vub.ac.be> Message-ID: <216c71d0-2391-0263-e14e-5b952989ea6e@uni-muenchen.de> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu Fri Feb 19 15:23:13 2021 From: Toke.Knudsen at oneonta.edu (Toke Knudsen) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 15:23:13 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, On the topic of France and universities, this article in yesterday?s New York Times, though not addressing the point of discussion here, might be of interest nonetheless: ===== Heating Up Culture Wars, France to Scour Universities for Ideas That ?Corrupt Society? The government announced an investigation into social science research, broadening attacks on what it sees as destabilizing American influences. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/world/europe/france-universities-culture-wars.html ===== Best wishes, Toke > On Feb 19, 2021, at 03:53, jmdelire wrote: > > Having myself French as mother language, I always had the feeling that the education system in France is not particularly open to non French students or teachers. Of course, it is different in the world of research. > Just an example : we have in Belgium thousands of French students in our Universities or Hautes Ecoles, because our education system is quite open, while it is particularly difficult for a Belgian to study in France. > > Jean Michel > > > Le 18.02.2021 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a ?crit : >> sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la >> science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la >> richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... >> (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, >> science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness >> which has been traditionally theirs ...) >> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk >> wrote: >>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben >>> wrote: >>>> Dear All, >>>> The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole >>>> Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. >>>> This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" >>>> but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et >>>> philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory >>>> accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or buddhological >>>> applications. >>>> Please explore at >> https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >>>> [1] >>>> A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. >>> "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many countries >>> hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the >>> indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the first >>> two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal >>> international practice. >>> Best, >>> Dominik >> -- >> JAN E.M. HOUBEN >> Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology >> _Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite_ >> ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) >> _SCIENCES HISTORIQUES ET PHILOLOGIQUES _ >> Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) >> _johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu_ >> _https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben [2]_ >> _https://www.classicalindia.info_ [3] >> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- _L'Inde Classique_ augment?e: construction, >> transmission >> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 >> [2] https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben >> [3] https://www.classicalindia.info >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options >> or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu Fri Feb 19 19:18:18 2021 From: Lyne.Bansat-Boudon at ephe.psl.eu (Lyne Bansat-Boudon) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 19:18:18 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0F94EEDB-BE80-4DE5-8F8A-C81C8DE60590@ephe.sorbonne.fr> Dear colleagues, Allow me to be in the discussion. I find it quite legitimate that the EPHE, as a French ? Grand Etablissement ?, on the model of the ? Coll?ge de France ?, considers as a prerequisite a ? good active mastery of French language ?. University is not meant for the comfort of the Professors but that of the students. In France, a French speaking country, if I have to recall what is sheer obviousness, classes are delivered in French. On the basis of their outstanding skills and talents, the EPHE gladly welcomes scholars who are not native French speakers, but a minimal mastery of French is expected, which is meant to serve also the comfort of the teachers themselves. Matthew Kapstein and Jan Houben, both Directeurs d??tudes in the EPHE, would certainly agree with my assertion, as well as the many Italian researchers working in different French academic institutions, including the EPHE. And shall I remind you that some countries, if they do not officially require a good mastery of their own language (which is not very difficult for many of them, since both the applicant and the members of the election committee are English speakers), do apply the rule of ? National Preference ? (as is the case in Canada, for instance), which is not at all in use in French Universities, which consistently privilege scientific excellence, whatever the nationality? Best wishes, Lyne Bansat-Boudon [cid:8E90FAFD-609F-4D7A-9393-D17E94D59596 at home] Le 18 f?vr. 2021 ? 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben > a ?crit : sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness which has been traditionally theirs ...) On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben > wrote: Dear All, The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) or buddhological applications. Please explore at https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many countries hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the indigenous language they will commit to learning it within the first two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that is normal international practice. Best, Dominik -- Jan E.M. Houben Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) Sciences historiques et philologiques Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA 2120) johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben https://www.classicalindia.info LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- L'Inde Classique augment?e: construction, transmission et transformations d'un savoir scientifique _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgalasek at googlemail.com Fri Feb 19 19:39:14 2021 From: bgalasek at googlemail.com (Bruno Galasek-Hul) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 11:39:14 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] PDF request Message-ID: Esteemd scholars, Might anyone on this list possess a soft copy of the following and be wiling to share it with me privately? Tilak Raj Chopra (Bonn). "BHS triyantara and Hindi tem?tara. Notes on a folk-belief in the Mah?vastu and some other Buddhist Sanskrit texts.? In Frank-Richard Hamm Memorial Volume. Edited by Helmut Eimer (IeT, 21). Bonn: Indica et Tibetica Verlag, 1990, pp. 19?47. I?m aware that the volume is still in print. But I have no access to a library and I need the article or, in particular, the 'Supplement: Text of the Sabhika-Parivarta, edited for the First Time from Manuscripts?, relatively quickly for a research project. Ordering the book and waiting for it to be delivered would take too long... Many thanks! Bruno Galasek-Hul Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. Cell: +1-203-507-0080 E-mails: bgalasek at pm.me ; bgalasek at gmail.com https://independent.academia.edu/BrunoGalasekHul http://84000.co/about/translators/ https://mangalamresearch.shinyapps.io/VisualDictionaryOfBuddhistSanskrit/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org Fri Feb 19 20:51:25 2021 From: rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org (Richard Mahoney) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 09:51:25 +1300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE In-Reply-To: <0F94EEDB-BE80-4DE5-8F8A-C81C8DE60590@ephe.sorbonne.fr> Message-ID: Dear colleagues, All of this makes me wonder. Is this all that common any more? An English speaking scholar, in France, writing in French: Ruegg, David Seyfort, Contributions ? l'histoire de la philosophie linguistique indienne. (Paris: De Boccard, 1959) ----- La th?orie du Tath?gatagarbha et du Gotra : ?tudes sur la sot?riologie et la gnos?ologie du buddhisme. (Paris: ?cole fran?aise D'Extr?me- Orient, 1969) Best, Richard -----Original Message----- From: Lyne Bansat-Boudon To: Jan HOUBEN Cc: Dominik Wujastyk , Indology < indology at list.indology.info> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Professor-researcher recruitment campaign EPHE Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 19:18:18 +0000 Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.8.2) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 Dear colleagues, Allow me to be in the discussion. I find it quite legitimate that the EPHE, as a French ? Grand Etablissement ?, on the model of the ? Coll?ge de France ?, considers as a prerequisite a ? good active mastery of French language ?. University is not meant for the comfort of the Professors but that of the students. In France, a French speaking country, if I have to recall what is sheer obviousness, classes are delivered in French. On the basis of their outstanding skills and talents, the EPHE gladly welcomes scholars who are not native French speakers, but a minimal mastery of French is expected, which is meant to serve also the comfort of the teachers themselves. Matthew Kapstein and Jan Houben, both Directeurs d??tudes in the EPHE, would certainly agree with my assertion, as well as the many Italian researchers working in different French academic institutions, including the EPHE. And shall I remind you that some countries, if they do not officially require a good mastery of their own language (which is not very difficult for many of them, since both the applicant and the members of the election committee are English speakers), do apply the rule of ? National Preference ? (as is the case in Canada, for instance), which is not at all in use in French Universities, which consistently privilege scientific excellence, whatever the nationality? Best wishes, Lyne Bansat-Boudon > Le 18 f?vr. 2021 ? 23:53, Jan E.M. Houben a > ?crit : > > > > > sans accepter la diversit? r?gionale, culturelle et linguistique, la > science et l'?rudition perdraient pourtant une grande partie de la > richesse qui leur appartenait traditionnellement ... > > > (= without accepting regional, cultural and linguistic diversity, > science and scholarship would nevertheless lose much of the richness > which has been traditionally theirs ...) > > > > > On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 17:54, Dominik Wujastyk > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 04:49, Jan E.M. Houben > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > The professor-researcher recruitment campaign 2021 at the ?cole > > > Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE) is open. > > > This time, none of the open positions are directly "indological" > > > but some of the positions in Sciences historiques et > > > philologiques or Sciences religieuses *could* in theory > > > accommodate indological (indological-linguistic) > > > or buddhological applications. > > > Please explore at > > > > > > https://www.ephe.psl.eu/actualites/recrutement-des-seignants-chercheurs-2021 > > > > > > > > > A good active mastery of French is of course a prerequisite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "of course"? No, this is not obvious or normal. Many countries > > hire professors on the understanding that if they don't know the > > indigenous language they will commit to learning it > > within the first two years of tenure. As far as I am aware, that > > is normal international practice. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > Dominik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Jan E.M. Houben > Directeur d'?tudes, Professor of South Asian History and Philology > Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite > ?cole Pratique des Hautes ?tudes (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres) > Sciences historiques et philologiques > Groupe de recherches en ?tudes indiennes (EA > 2120) > johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu > > > https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben > https://www.classicalindia.info > LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- > L'Inde Classique augment?e: construction, transmission > > > et transformations d'un savoir scientifique > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to > indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list > options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -- T +6433121699 M +64210640216 E rmahoney at indica-et-buddhica.org IM https://t.me/rmahoney W https://indica-et-buddhica.org/ Indica et Buddhica Littledene Bay Road Oxford NZ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 04:15:10 2021 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 21 21:15:10 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: PDF request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The text of the Sabhika-Parivarta edited by Tilak Raj Chopra is available at GRETIL: http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/corpustei/transformations/html/sa_sabhikasaugatazAsanapravrajyAvratacaraNaparivarta.htm Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 12:39 PM Bruno Galasek-Hul via INDOLOGY < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Esteemd scholars, > > Might anyone on this list possess a soft copy of the following and be > wiling to share it with me privately? > > Tilak Raj Chopra (Bonn). "BHS triyantara and Hindi tem?tara. Notes on a > folk-belief in the Mah?vastu and some other Buddhist Sanskrit texts.? In *Frank-Richard > Hamm Memorial Volume*. Edited by Helmut Eimer (IeT, 21). Bonn: Indica et > Tibetica Verlag, 1990, pp. 19?47. > > I?m aware that the volume is still in print. But I have no access to a > library and I need the article or, in particular, the 'Supplement: Text > of the Sabhika-Parivarta, edited for the First Time from Manuscripts?, relatively > quickly for a research project. Ordering the book and waiting for it to be > delivered would take too long... > > Many thanks! > > Bruno Galasek-Hul > > > Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. > Cell: +1-203-507-0080 > E-mails: bgalasek at pm.me; bgalasek at gmail.com > https://independent.academia.edu/BrunoGalasekHul > http://84000.co/about/translators/ > https://mangalamresearch.shinyapps.io/VisualDictionaryOfBuddhistSanskrit/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gasyoun at ya.ru Sat Feb 20 05:36:08 2021 From: gasyoun at ya.ru (=?utf-8?Q?M=C4=81rcis_Gas=C5=ABns?=) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 08:36:08 +0300 Subject: [INDOLOGY] A grammatical word-index to Atharvaveda, both recensions Message-ID: <256061613799304@mail.yandex.ru> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 15:45:27 2021 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 08:45:27 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suppose that your query has long since been answered privately, but we cannot know for sure. There is a statement in some of these volumes that the whole series (Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology) is translated from the Venkatesvara Steam Press editions, which in this statement are termed the vulgate. As is well known, the Venkatesvara editions were in most cases simply printed versions of a particular manuscript of that purana, correcting only obvious scribal errors, since the purpose was to make the puranas available on print. Of the ones you mentioned, I have seen that the Vayu is in fact translated from the Venkatesvara edition, and a spot check of the Linga also indicates the same. So I assume that the others are, too. However, the Skanda translation is a reprint of an earlier translation published starting in 1950, rather than being newly translated for the series. So I do not know what edition that translation was based on. Best regards, David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:37 AM Paolo Eugenio Rosati < paoloe.rosati at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear indologists, > > anyone can help me to identify on which published edition or manuscript > are based the following translations: > > Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1981. *The K?rma-Pur??a. *vol. 1 of 2. Delhi: > Motilal Banarsidass*.* > > > Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1985. *The Brahm?pur??a. Translated and > Annotated by a Board of Scholars*. vol. 1 of 4. Delhi: Motilal > Banarsidass. > > > Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1998. *The Li?gapur??a*. *Translated by a Board > of Scholars*. vol. 2 of 2. Delhi/Patna/Varanasi: Motilal Banarsidass. > > > Tagare, Ganesh V., ed., 1992. *The Skandapur??a*. *Translated and > Annotated*. Vol. 1 of 23. New Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. > > > Tagare, Ganesh V. ed., 1987. *V?yupur??a:* *Translated and Annotated*. > Vol. 1 of 2. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. > > > Best wishes, > > Paolo > > > -- > *Paolo E. Rosati* > > *PhD in Asian and African Studies* > *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo > **ER > **osati/ > * > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com > Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 > Skype: paoloe.rosati > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 15:51:58 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 10:51:58 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions or even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. Harry Spier On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 10:46 AM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > I suppose that your query has long since been answered privately, but we > cannot know for sure. There is a statement in some of these volumes that > the whole series (Ancient Indian Tradition and Mythology) is translated > from the Venkatesvara Steam Press editions, which in this statement are > termed the vulgate. As is well known, the Venkatesvara editions were in > most cases simply printed versions of a particular manuscript of that > purana, correcting only obvious scribal errors, since the purpose was to > make the puranas available on print. Of the ones you mentioned, I have seen > that the Vayu is in fact translated from the Venkatesvara edition, and a > spot check of the Linga also indicates the same. So I assume that the > others are, too. However, the Skanda translation is a reprint of an earlier > translation published starting in 1950, rather than being newly translated > for the series. So I do not know what edition that translation was based > on. > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:37 AM Paolo Eugenio Rosati < > paoloe.rosati at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Dear indologists, >> >> anyone can help me to identify on which published edition or manuscript >> are based the following translations: >> >> Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1981. *The K?rma-Pur??a. *vol. 1 of 2. Delhi: >> Motilal Banarsidass*.* >> >> >> Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1985. *The Brahm?pur??a. Translated and >> Annotated by a Board of Scholars*. vol. 1 of 4. Delhi: Motilal >> Banarsidass. >> >> >> Shastri, Jagdish L., ed., 1998. *The Li?gapur??a*. *Translated by a >> Board of Scholars*. vol. 2 of 2. Delhi/Patna/Varanasi: Motilal >> Banarsidass. >> >> >> Tagare, Ganesh V., ed., 1992. *The Skandapur??a*. *Translated and >> Annotated*. Vol. 1 of 23. New Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. >> >> >> Tagare, Ganesh V. ed., 1987. *V?yupur??a:* *Translated and Annotated*. >> Vol. 1 of 2. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Paolo >> >> >> -- >> *Paolo E. Rosati* >> >> *PhD in Asian and African Studies* >> *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo >> **ER >> **osati/ >> * >> paoloe.rosati at gmail.com >> Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 >> Skype: paoloe.rosati >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing >> committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or >> unsubscribe) > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de Sat Feb 20 16:49:11 2021 From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 17:49:11 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Am 20.02.2021 um 16:51 schrieb Harry Spier : > > What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions or even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. > Harry Spier There is a large Epics and Puranas bibliography: _Epic and pura?n?ic bibliography : up to 1985_ (in 2 vols.) ed. by Heinrich von Stietencron et al., comprising more than 2000 pages. See the entry on WorldCat: >. All the best Peter Wyzlic -- Institut f?r Orient- und Asienwissenschaften Bibliothek Universit?t Bonn Br?hler Stra?e 7 53119 Bonn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bgalasek at googlemail.com Sat Feb 20 17:18:01 2021 From: bgalasek at googlemail.com (Bruno Galasek-Hul) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 09:18:01 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: PDF request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks to Professor Roland Steiner, who came to my rescue with Tilak Raj Chopra's paper, and to Dr. David Reigle for mentioning the GRETIL version of Chopra?s edition. I was aware of this version, as always very reliably input by Klaus Wille, and had used it, but needed to look at some of the documentation accompanying the edition. I'm grateful to this list! Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. Cell: +1-203-507-0080 E-mail: bgalasek at pm.me https://independent.academia.edu/BrunoGalasekHul http://84000.co/about/translators/ https://mangalamresearch.shinyapps.io/VisualDictionaryOfBuddhistSanskrit/ > On Feb 19, 2021, at 8:15 PM, David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > > The text of the Sabhika-Parivarta edited by Tilak Raj Chopra is available at GRETIL: > > http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/corpustei/transformations/html/sa_sabhikasaugatazAsanapravrajyAvratacaraNaparivarta.htm > > Best regards, > > David Reigle > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 12:39 PM Bruno Galasek-Hul via INDOLOGY > wrote: > Esteemd scholars, > > Might anyone on this list possess a soft copy of the following and be wiling to share it with me privately? > > Tilak Raj Chopra (Bonn). "BHS triyantara and Hindi tem?tara. Notes on a folk-belief in the Mah?vastu and some other Buddhist Sanskrit texts.? In Frank-Richard Hamm Memorial Volume. Edited by Helmut Eimer (IeT, 21). Bonn: Indica et Tibetica Verlag, 1990, pp. 19?47. > > I?m aware that the volume is still in print. But I have no access to a library and I need the article or, in particular, the 'Supplement: Text of the Sabhika-Parivarta, edited for the First Time from Manuscripts?, relatively quickly for a research project. Ordering the book and waiting for it to be delivered would take too long... > > Many thanks! > > Bruno Galasek-Hul > > > Bruno Galasek-Hul, Ph.D. > Cell: +1-203-507-0080 > E-mails: bgalasek at pm.me ; bgalasek at gmail.com > https://independent.academia.edu/BrunoGalasekHul > http://84000.co/about/translators/ > https://mangalamresearch.shinyapps.io/VisualDictionaryOfBuddhistSanskrit/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dnreigle at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 19:27:46 2021 From: dnreigle at gmail.com (David and Nancy Reigle) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 12:27:46 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Critical editions of pur??as known to me are here listed by date of publication: *The V?mana Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1967. *The K?rma Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1971. *The Var?ha Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta, 2 volumes. Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1981. *The Bh?gavata [?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??a]: Critical Edition*, edited by H. G. Shastri, Bharati K. Shelat, and K. K. Shastree, 4 volumes in 6 parts. Ahmedabad: B. J. Institute of Learning and Research, 1996 (1-3), 1999 (4-6), 1998 (7-9), 1997 (10), 1998 (11-12), 2002 (Epilogue). *The Critical Edition of the Vi??upur??am*, edited by M. M. Pathak, 2 volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 1997, 1999. *The Critical Edition of the M?rka??eyapur??am*, edited by M. L. Wadekar, 2 volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 2011 (volume 1 is chapters 1-75; volume 2 is chapters 76-88, the Dev?m?h?tmyam). *The Skandapur??a*, vol. I, adhy?yas 1-25, edited by Rob Adriaensen, Hans T. Bakker, and Harunaga Isaacson, 1998; vol. IIa, adhy?yas 26-31.14, ed. by Hans T. Bakker and Harunaga Isaacson, 2005; vol. IIb, adhy?yas 31-52, ed. by Hans T. Bakker, Peter C. Bisschop, and Yuko Yokochi, 2014; vol. III, adhy?yas 34.1-61, 53-69, ed. by Yuko Yokochi, 2013. Supplement to the Groningen Oriental Studies, Groningen: Egbert Forsten, and Leiden: Brill. [This listing is not up to date; I think more volumes have been published in the last six years.] A critical edition of the V?yu-pur??a is underway at the Oriental Institute, Vadodara. The ?nand??rama editions used multiple manuscripts. These include the Padma (1894), Brahma (1895), Agni (1900), V?yu (1905), and Matsya (1907) pur??as. Of the Bibliotheca Indica editions, at least the V?yu edited by Rajendralala Mitra (2 volumes, 1880, 1888) used multiple manuscripts. A composite edition of the Bh?gavata-pur?na with three or four commentaries is *?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??am*, edited by P. Radhakrishna Sarma, and N. C. V. Narasimhacharya, 12 volumes (in 14 parts?). Tirupati: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams, 1989-2005 (not yet completed?). A composite edition of the Brahma-pur??a is found in *Sanskrit Indices and Text of the Brahmapur??a*, by Peter Schreiner and Renate S?hnen. Pur??a Research Publications, T?bingen, 1. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1987. According to the extensive researches of R. C. Hazra, most of the pur??as now extant are not the original ones. This is based on his gathering quotations from the pur??as found in the old sm?ti-nibandhas, and on descriptions of the contents of the pur??as given in some of the pur??as. The results of his researches were published in a series of journal articles, and mostly included in his book, *Studies in the Pur??ic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs*. He concluded that only seven of the now extant mah?-pur??as can legitimately claim to be the original ones: *M?rka??eya*, *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Vi??u*, *Matsya*, *Bh?gavata*, and *K?rma*, and even the *K?rma* with considerable qualifications. Of the other eleven erstwhile mah?-pur??as, he discovered the original Agni-pur??a in manuscripts under the name Vahni-pur??a. This was edited and published after his lifetime: *Vahni-Pur??am, also referred to as ?gneya-Pur??am*, edited by Anasuya Bhowmik. Bibliotheca Indica Series, no. 336. Kolkata: The Asiatic Society, 2012 (includes as an Introduction the extensive 2-part article by Rajendra Chandra Hazra titled, ?Studies in the Genuine ?gneya-Pur??a alias Vahni-Pur??a,? originally published in 1953 and 1954). David Reigle Colorado, U.S.A. On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 8:52 AM Harry Spier wrote: > What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions or > even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. > Harry Spier > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sat Feb 20 21:39:24 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 21 16:39:24 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you to David Reigle for this list and thank you to Peter Wyzlic for the reference to the Epic and pura?n?ic bibliography. On looking at Ludo Rocher's "The Puranas" in "A History of Indian Literature" (1986) I see he also has a bibliography for each purana he lists and a list of editions and also a general bibliography. Harry Spier On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 2:27 PM David and Nancy Reigle wrote: > Critical editions of pur??as known to me are here listed by date of > publication: > > *The V?mana Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: > All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1967. > > *The K?rma Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: > All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1971. > > *The Var?ha Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta, 2 volumes. > Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1981. > > *The Bh?gavata [?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??a]: Critical Edition*, edited > by H. G. Shastri, Bharati K. Shelat, and K. K. Shastree, 4 volumes in 6 > parts. Ahmedabad: B. J. Institute of Learning and Research, 1996 (1-3), > 1999 (4-6), 1998 (7-9), 1997 (10), 1998 (11-12), 2002 (Epilogue). > > *The Critical Edition of the Vi??upur??am*, edited by M. M. Pathak, 2 > volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 1997, 1999. > > *The Critical Edition of the M?rka??eyapur??am*, edited by M. L. Wadekar, > 2 volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 2011 (volume 1 is chapters 1-75; > volume 2 is chapters 76-88, the Dev?m?h?tmyam). > > *The Skandapur??a*, vol. I, adhy?yas 1-25, edited by Rob Adriaensen, Hans > T. Bakker, and Harunaga Isaacson, 1998; vol. IIa, adhy?yas 26-31.14, ed. by > Hans T. Bakker and Harunaga Isaacson, 2005; vol. IIb, adhy?yas 31-52, ed. > by Hans T. Bakker, Peter C. Bisschop, and Yuko Yokochi, 2014; vol. III, > adhy?yas 34.1-61, 53-69, ed. by Yuko Yokochi, 2013. Supplement to the > Groningen Oriental Studies, Groningen: Egbert Forsten, and Leiden: Brill. > [This listing is not up to date; I think more volumes have been published > in the last six years.] > > A critical edition of the V?yu-pur??a is underway at the Oriental > Institute, Vadodara. > > The ?nand??rama editions used multiple manuscripts. These include the > Padma (1894), Brahma (1895), Agni (1900), V?yu (1905), and Matsya (1907) > pur??as. > > Of the Bibliotheca Indica editions, at least the V?yu edited by > Rajendralala Mitra (2 volumes, 1880, 1888) used multiple manuscripts. > > A composite edition of the Bh?gavata-pur?na with three or four > commentaries is *?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??am*, edited by P. Radhakrishna > Sarma, and N. C. V. Narasimhacharya, 12 volumes (in 14 parts?). Tirupati: > Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams, 1989-2005 (not yet completed?). > > A composite edition of the Brahma-pur??a is found in *Sanskrit Indices > and Text of the Brahmapur??a*, by Peter Schreiner and Renate S?hnen. > Pur??a Research Publications, T?bingen, 1. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, > 1987. > > According to the extensive researches of R. C. Hazra, most of the pur??as > now extant are not the original ones. This is based on his gathering > quotations from the pur??as found in the old sm?ti-nibandhas, and on > descriptions of the contents of the pur??as given in some of the pur??as. > The results of his researches were published in a series of journal > articles, and mostly included in his book, *Studies in the Pur??ic > Records on Hindu Rites and Customs*. He concluded that only seven of the > now extant mah?-pur??as can legitimately claim to be the original ones: > *M?rka??eya*, *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Vi??u*, *Matsya*, *Bh?gavata*, and > *K?rma*, and even the *K?rma* with considerable qualifications. Of the > other eleven erstwhile mah?-pur??as, he discovered the original Agni-pur??a > in manuscripts under the name Vahni-pur??a. This was edited and published > after his lifetime: > > *Vahni-Pur??am, also referred to as ?gneya-Pur??am*, edited by Anasuya > Bhowmik. Bibliotheca Indica Series, no. 336. Kolkata: The Asiatic Society, > 2012 (includes as an Introduction the extensive 2-part article by Rajendra > Chandra Hazra titled, ?Studies in the Genuine ?gneya-Pur??a alias > Vahni-Pur??a,? originally published in 1953 and 1954). > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 8:52 AM Harry Spier > wrote: > >> What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions >> or even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. >> Harry Spier >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Sun Feb 21 11:08:44 2021 From: paoloe.rosati at gmail.com (Paolo Eugenio Rosati) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 21 12:08:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear All, thank you very much for your private and public comments. Many thanks to David and Peter for sharing the bibliography for Puranic texts. I didn't know that all the translations published through Motilal Banarsidass were based on the Venkatesvara edition. In Rocher (1986), I think, only the *?iva Pur??a* is said to be based on the Pa??itapustak?laya edition (1963), which was an emendation of the Vankatesvara edition. Are there new studies on the date of compilation of these (probably non-original) Puranas? Following Rocher and Hazra it seems almost impossible to give any useful and realistic date of compilation. Best, Paolo Il giorno sab 20 feb 2021 alle ore 22:40 Harry Spier < vasishtha.spier at gmail.com> ha scritto: > Thank you to David Reigle for this list and thank you to Peter Wyzlic for > the reference to the Epic and pura?n?ic bibliography. On looking at Ludo > Rocher's "The Puranas" in "A History of Indian Literature" (1986) I see he > also has a bibliography for each purana he lists and a list of editions and > also a general bibliography. > > Harry Spier > > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 2:27 PM David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > >> Critical editions of pur??as known to me are here listed by date of >> publication: >> >> *The V?mana Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: >> All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1967. >> >> *The K?rma Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: >> All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1971. >> >> *The Var?ha Pur??a*, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta, 2 volumes. >> Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1981. >> >> *The Bh?gavata [?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??a]: Critical Edition*, edited >> by H. G. Shastri, Bharati K. Shelat, and K. K. Shastree, 4 volumes in 6 >> parts. Ahmedabad: B. J. Institute of Learning and Research, 1996 (1-3), >> 1999 (4-6), 1998 (7-9), 1997 (10), 1998 (11-12), 2002 (Epilogue). >> >> *The Critical Edition of the Vi??upur??am*, edited by M. M. Pathak, 2 >> volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 1997, 1999. >> >> *The Critical Edition of the M?rka??eyapur??am*, edited by M. L. >> Wadekar, 2 volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 2011 (volume 1 is >> chapters 1-75; volume 2 is chapters 76-88, the Dev?m?h?tmyam). >> >> *The Skandapur??a*, vol. I, adhy?yas 1-25, edited by Rob Adriaensen, >> Hans T. Bakker, and Harunaga Isaacson, 1998; vol. IIa, adhy?yas 26-31.14, >> ed. by Hans T. Bakker and Harunaga Isaacson, 2005; vol. IIb, adhy?yas >> 31-52, ed. by Hans T. Bakker, Peter C. Bisschop, and Yuko Yokochi, 2014; >> vol. III, adhy?yas 34.1-61, 53-69, ed. by Yuko Yokochi, 2013. Supplement to >> the Groningen Oriental Studies, Groningen: Egbert Forsten, and Leiden: >> Brill. [This listing is not up to date; I think more volumes have been >> published in the last six years.] >> >> A critical edition of the V?yu-pur??a is underway at the Oriental >> Institute, Vadodara. >> >> The ?nand??rama editions used multiple manuscripts. These include the >> Padma (1894), Brahma (1895), Agni (1900), V?yu (1905), and Matsya (1907) >> pur??as. >> >> Of the Bibliotheca Indica editions, at least the V?yu edited by >> Rajendralala Mitra (2 volumes, 1880, 1888) used multiple manuscripts. >> >> A composite edition of the Bh?gavata-pur?na with three or four >> commentaries is *?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??am*, edited by P. >> Radhakrishna Sarma, and N. C. V. Narasimhacharya, 12 volumes (in 14 >> parts?). Tirupati: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams, 1989-2005 (not yet >> completed?). >> >> A composite edition of the Brahma-pur??a is found in *Sanskrit Indices >> and Text of the Brahmapur??a*, by Peter Schreiner and Renate S?hnen. >> Pur??a Research Publications, T?bingen, 1. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, >> 1987. >> >> According to the extensive researches of R. C. Hazra, most of the pur??as >> now extant are not the original ones. This is based on his gathering >> quotations from the pur??as found in the old sm?ti-nibandhas, and on >> descriptions of the contents of the pur??as given in some of the pur??as. >> The results of his researches were published in a series of journal >> articles, and mostly included in his book, *Studies in the Pur??ic >> Records on Hindu Rites and Customs*. He concluded that only seven of the >> now extant mah?-pur??as can legitimately claim to be the original ones: >> *M?rka??eya*, *V?yu*, *Brahm???a*, *Vi??u*, *Matsya*, *Bh?gavata*, and >> *K?rma*, and even the *K?rma* with considerable qualifications. Of the >> other eleven erstwhile mah?-pur??as, he discovered the original Agni-pur??a >> in manuscripts under the name Vahni-pur??a. This was edited and published >> after his lifetime: >> >> *Vahni-Pur??am, also referred to as ?gneya-Pur??am*, edited by Anasuya >> Bhowmik. Bibliotheca Indica Series, no. 336. Kolkata: The Asiatic Society, >> 2012 (includes as an Introduction the extensive 2-part article by Rajendra >> Chandra Hazra titled, ?Studies in the Genuine ?gneya-Pur??a alias >> Vahni-Pur??a,? originally published in 1953 and 1954). >> >> David Reigle >> >> Colorado, U.S.A. >> >> On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 8:52 AM Harry Spier >> wrote: >> >>> What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions >>> or even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. >>> Harry Spier >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- *Paolo E. Rosati* *PhD in Asian and African Studies* *https://uniroma1.academia.edu/Paolo **ER **osati/ * paoloe.rosati at gmail.com Mobile/Whatsapp: (+39) 338 73 83 472 Skype: paoloe.rosati -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wujastyk at gmail.com Mon Feb 22 02:48:44 2021 From: wujastyk at gmail.com (Dominik Wujastyk) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 21 19:48:44 -0700 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: [RISA-L LIST] Sad news . . . Today Tom Hopkins as passed on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Schweig, Graham Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 at 13:52 Subject: Re: [RISA-L LIST] Sad news . . . Today Tom Hopkins as passed on To: risa-l at lists.sandiego.edu Saturday, February 20, 2021 Dear Friends: It is with much sadness (but also many sweet memories!) that I report to all of you that our beloved colleague and friend Tom Hopkins gently passed away this morning in his asleep at the age of ninety-one. A couple of months ago, Tom suffered a stroke, but appeared to be recovering quite steadily and well from it, so his departure today comes unexpectedly. Tom was born on July 28th, 1930 in Champaign, Illinois. He was married to Fran (Skinner) Hopkins on December 22, 1956. Together they had four children, five grandchildren, and even four great-grandchildren. He will be very missed by all of them. Tom's colorful educational background can be spelled out as follows: Tom earned his B.S. in Physics in 1953, and went on to MIT earned a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering in the same year. He then went on to Yale Divinity School to earn his B.D. in Religion and Culture, and then completed the M.A. in 1959 and the Ph.D. in 1962 in Comparative Religion from Yale University Gradue School. His unpublished dissertaion is entitled, *The Vaishnava Bhakti Movement in the Bh?gavata Pur??a. * >From 1961 to 1996, Tom taught in the Religious Studies Department at Franklin and Marshall College, in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where he also served as department chair from 1974 to 1994. From 1998 to 1999, he was Director of Academic Affairs for the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies, an indendently recognized centre by Oxford University, where he acted as liaison between the Centre and various Oxford academic program, tutored two graduate students, and gaive a seminar and series of lectures on Hinduism under the auspices of the Faculty of Theology of Oxford University. His chapter, entitled, "The Social Teaching of the Bh?gavata Pur??a," was published in a landmark publication in the field at the time, entitled, *Krishna: Myths, Rites, and Attitudes, *edited by Milton Singer (published by East-West Center Press, 1966, and then in softcover edition by University of Chicago Press, 1969). Among Tom's many publications, he is perhaps most well-known for his book, *The Hindu Religious Tradition, *originally published by Dickenson Publishing Co. in 1971, used in the classroom as a standard textbook by so many colleagues. During his last years of life he had practically doubled the size of the book to produce a second edition to bring his work up to date with current research. Over the past year, I have been in the process of working on Tom's behalf to get this second edition published, and will continue to do this for him. Many of us in the field knew him back in those days when he was a very active and vibrant participant at every annual international meeting of the American Academy of Religion (AAR). In fact, he was a member of the AAR from its very inception back in 1963, up until 1990. I myself remember him very well when I started attending the AAR 1977, and was amazed by his generosity toward budding graduate students as well as his wise counsel to accomplished scholars in the field and to the Academy as well. His personality was warm and intellectually active, and had a tempered sense of humor that was enjoyed by everyone. He was very gregarious, a good friend to so many, and just an example of the finest of humanity. And though he has been retired for well over twenty years, his contribution of mind and heart will never be forgotten and will always be remembered especially by those whose intellects and hearts he has touched. Graham P.S. The picture below is Tom (right) and I in his library at his home in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, taken about two years ago, when he was eighty-nine years of age. ___ Graham M. Schweig Distinguished Teaching & Research Faculty Senior Editor, *Journal of Vaishnava Studies* The Mira & Ajay Shingal Center for Dharma Studies GRADUATE THEOLOGICAL UNION, Berkeley Professor of Religion Director of Studies in Religion Department of Philosophy & Religion CHRISTOPHER NEWPORT UNIVERSITY, Virginia Director of Theology Avanti Schools Trust Schools Edgware, United Kingdom _______________________________________________ PLEASE post to this list ONLY from an email account that has been subscribed. PLEASE use a signature with your full name and institutional affiliation. RISA-L mailing list RISA-L at lists.sandiego.edu https://lists.sandiego.edu/mailman/listinfo/risa-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 200312 bytes Desc: not available URL: From SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk Mon Feb 22 05:13:24 2021 From: SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk (Geoffrey Samuel) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 05:13:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tom Hopkins Message-ID: <9020D418-590D-4A4B-A179-3F6493658E18@cardiff.ac.uk> I was very sad to hear from the INDOLOGY list of Tom Hopkins? passing. I have warm memories of meeting Tom in Oxford in 1999, towards the end of his time as Director at the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies. I was a Tibetan Buddhist specialist trying to find my way around the early Indian material, and he helped me a great deal. Among other things, he showed me an unpublished manuscript he had been working on (?Some Reflections on Hinduism?) which put together Indian archaeology and early textual material in an innovative and creative way. Years later, with Tom?s permission, I reused key elements of his argument in a lecture series at Oxford and in my own resulting book (Origins of Yoga and Tantra). I regret that Tom himself never published this material; hopefully some of it went into the revised version of The Hindu Religious Tradition. Unfortunately, although we corresponded on occasion, we never met again, but the memory of a generous and creative spirit has stayed with me. Geoffrey Samuel Sydney, Australia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Mon Feb 22 08:31:21 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 02:31:21 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <54DC8909-B9C5-4A36-9BBA-116732B515FE@aol.com> Dear Herman, Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. Here are some examples. tuvv? na?avu - (Pati. 60.12) Here na?avu can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. v??? va??i - (Peru. 370) Here va??i can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. v??? m?lai (Pu?. 364.1) Here m?lai can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. eyy? varivil (Aka. 192.4) Here varivil can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?ey? means ?to discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate the rainbow. The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information provided. Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (n??p?s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA ), the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single community that perform different functions and the poets use the same general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. Regards, Palaniappan > On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Dear Palaniappan, > One more remark on the v?l??p p?rppa? and the other examples given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that the terms p?rppa?, porunar and p??a? refer to something like a (sub)caste called p?r?ppa? etc, whose members are not restricted to brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this type of compound. > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > Van: INDOLOGY > namens Tieken, H.J.H. via INDOLOGY > > Verzonden: zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 > Aan: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems > > Dear Palaniappan, > I think your interpretation of e?? p??a? is correct, as is that of por?a porunar. I like to add another instance of this type of compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:v?l??p p?rppa? Wilden's (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (p?rppa?) making a living by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter byv?l??. > I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) > > As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A Note on vidh?ma or sadh?ma iva p?vaka at R?m?ya?a ...." in IT 7 (1979), 171-189. > With kind regards > Herman > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > Van: INDOLOGY > namens Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > Verzonden: zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 > Aan: Indology List > Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems > > I am reposting after correcting some typos. > > I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. > > With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms my interpretation of e??a in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For the affirmative use of e??i in the sense of music making, see Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) > > In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?e??[a]p p??a?? as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of it right. She is right to translate p??a? as ?the bard?. But, Wilden has interpreted e?? as deriving from DEDR 851 e?u- 'to rise'. It should be related to DEDR 5156 y??, ???, stringed musical instrument; e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of 'por?ap porunar' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by the word ?porunar?. > > One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?e??[a]? to describe ?P??a?? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the ruler ?P??a?? and the word for the bard, ?p??a?,? and not necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin. But, we know that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. > > As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). > > The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district of the Telugu region in the 7thcentury can be seen to drift all the way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12th century Mahad? plates of Somesvaradevavarman. > > In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word ?k??i? meaning ?having joined? to ?P??a?o?u? to come up with the misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?poru? ?to fight? is preceded by the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the verb with the case marker ?o?u'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s interpretation. > > George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love. Institut Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. > Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. > R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. > Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. > Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. > Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? Patippakam, Ce??ai. > Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of the Akan????u, 3 volumes. ?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM, palaniappa at aol.com wrote: > > Dear George, > > I appreciate your comments. > > As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I resorted to the transliteration I used. > > Thanks > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: George Hart > > To: INDOLOGY > > Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems > > Dear Palaniappan, > > I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. > > One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. > > George > > On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > wrote: > > > > > Dear George, > > Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? > > First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. > > This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. bANa > Ta. vANa-. > > In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. > > The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with word-initial p-. > > As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil country over several centuries. > > In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 referred to one or more members of the same lineage later called the bANas. > > kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. > tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8) > pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar > mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um (kuRu. 11.7-8) > > We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. > The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same nature as in akam. 336 below. > mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar > vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai > Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2 > nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiyE (akam. 336.20-23) > Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. > Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the cOza fighters > > > koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar > > > > > veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2 > > > > > pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2 (naR. 10.6-8) > > > > So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might have sent his forces without joining them. > As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side while the battle is raging and in that case they will only move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should be fighters and not bards. > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > > > > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list INDOLOGY at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon Feb 22 08:53:04 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 09:53:04 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <54DC8909-B9C5-4A36-9BBA-116732B515FE@aol.com> Message-ID: <7c53faa5-492c-050f-db1e-4a1f6162679a@univ-paris-diderot.fr> For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ ?can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai /?(Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ ?(Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/?and the other examples >> given?mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/?and///p??a?/refer?to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/?etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/?is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound?(about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/?Wilden's >> (ad hoc)?interpretation of?this compound runs?as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of?compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/?or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/?at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29).?(See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread.?Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called? V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./?But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri? gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226,?Pillai?does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta??Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined??to ?/P??a?o?u/??to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/???to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018.? A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. ?I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. ?I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. ?Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. ?If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. ?Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. ?I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil.?It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of?bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. ?(Early History of the >> Andhra Country,?p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-.?In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . ?Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is?carried out?with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> ?were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic?names mentioned?here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'.?It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > From christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be Mon Feb 22 08:57:37 2021 From: christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be (Christophe Vielle) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 09:57:37 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Puranas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <84B26479-725E-4D5A-AD6F-42235895DA6A@uclouvain.be> The EPB is still working online: http://ep-bibliography.uni-goettingen.de/cgi-bin/webconnector.pl?advancedsearch=1 > Le 20 f?vr. 2021 ? 22:39, Harry Spier a ?crit : > > Thank you to David Reigle for this list and thank you to Peter Wyzlic for the reference to the Epic and pura?n?ic bibliography. On looking at Ludo Rocher's "The Puranas" in "A History of Indian Literature" (1986) I see he also has a bibliography for each purana he lists and a list of editions and also a general bibliography. > > Harry Spier > Am 20.02.2021 um 16:51 schrieb Harry Spier >: > > What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions or even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. > Harry Spier There is a large Epics and Puranas bibliography: _Epic and pura?n?ic bibliography : up to 1985_ (in 2 vols.) ed. by Heinrich von Stietencron et al., comprising more than 2000 pages. See the entry on WorldCat: >. All the best Peter Wyzlic > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 2:27 PM David and Nancy Reigle > wrote: > Critical editions of pur??as known to me are here listed by date of publication: > > The V?mana Pur??a, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1967. > > The K?rma Pur??a, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta. Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1971. > > The Var?ha Pur??a, critically edited by Anand Swarup Gupta, 2 volumes. Varanasi: All-India Kashiraj Trust, 1981. > > The Bh?gavata [?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??a]: Critical Edition, edited by H. G. Shastri, Bharati K. Shelat, and K. K. Shastree, 4 volumes in 6 parts. Ahmedabad: B. J. Institute of Learning and Research, 1996 (1-3), 1999 (4-6), 1998 (7-9), 1997 (10), 1998 (11-12), 2002 (Epilogue). > > The Critical Edition of the Vi??upur??am, edited by M. M. Pathak, 2 volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 1997, 1999. > > The Critical Edition of the M?rka??eyapur??am, edited by M. L. Wadekar, 2 volumes. Vadodara: Oriental Institute, 2011 (volume 1 is chapters 1-75; volume 2 is chapters 76-88, the Dev?m?h?tmyam). > > The Skandapur??a, vol. I, adhy?yas 1-25, edited by Rob Adriaensen, Hans T. Bakker, and Harunaga Isaacson, 1998; vol. IIa, adhy?yas 26-31.14, ed. by Hans T. Bakker and Harunaga Isaacson, 2005; vol. IIb, adhy?yas 31-52, ed. by Hans T. Bakker, Peter C. Bisschop, and Yuko Yokochi, 2014; vol. III, adhy?yas 34.1-61, 53-69, ed. by Yuko Yokochi, 2013. Supplement to the Groningen Oriental Studies, Groningen: Egbert Forsten, and Leiden: Brill. [This listing is not up to date; I think more volumes have been published in the last six years.] > > A critical edition of the V?yu-pur??a is underway at the Oriental Institute, Vadodara. > > The ?nand??rama editions used multiple manuscripts. These include the Padma (1894), Brahma (1895), Agni (1900), V?yu (1905), and Matsya (1907) pur??as. > > Of the Bibliotheca Indica editions, at least the V?yu edited by Rajendralala Mitra (2 volumes, 1880, 1888) used multiple manuscripts. > > A composite edition of the Bh?gavata-pur?na with three or four commentaries is ?r?mad Bh?gavata Mah?pur??am, edited by P. Radhakrishna Sarma, and N. C. V. Narasimhacharya, 12 volumes (in 14 parts?). Tirupati: Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams, 1989-2005 (not yet completed?). > > A composite edition of the Brahma-pur??a is found in Sanskrit Indices and Text of the Brahmapur??a, by Peter Schreiner and Renate S?hnen. Pur??a Research Publications, T?bingen, 1. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, 1987. > > According to the extensive researches of R. C. Hazra, most of the pur??as now extant are not the original ones. This is based on his gathering quotations from the pur??as found in the old sm?ti-nibandhas, and on descriptions of the contents of the pur??as given in some of the pur??as. The results of his researches were published in a series of journal articles, and mostly included in his book, Studies in the Pur??ic Records on Hindu Rites and Customs. He concluded that only seven of the now extant mah?-pur??as can legitimately claim to be the original ones: M?rka??eya, V?yu, Brahm???a, Vi??u, Matsya, Bh?gavata, and K?rma, and even the K?rma with considerable qualifications. Of the other eleven erstwhile mah?-pur??as, he discovered the original Agni-pur??a in manuscripts under the name Vahni-pur??a. This was edited and published after his lifetime: > > Vahni-Pur??am, also referred to as ?gneya-Pur??am, edited by Anasuya Bhowmik. Bibliotheca Indica Series, no. 336. Kolkata: The Asiatic Society, 2012 (includes as an Introduction the extensive 2-part article by Rajendra Chandra Hazra titled, ?Studies in the Genuine ?gneya-Pur??a alias Vahni-Pur??a,? originally published in 1953 and 1954). > > David Reigle > > Colorado, U.S.A. > > > On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 8:52 AM Harry Spier > wrote: > What I would find useful is if someone could list the critical editions or even editions made from multiple manuscripts of Puranas. > Harry Spier > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) ??????????????????? Christophe Vielle Louvain-la-Neuve -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Feb 22 10:36:33 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 10:36:33 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <7c53faa5-492c-050f-db1e-4a1f6162679a@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: Dear list members, or those interested in the details of poetic Ca?kam vocabulary, Given the fact that the v?l??p p?r?pp??, "a p?rpp?? who does not sacrifice". in the Akan????u is an artisan cutting bangles from conchshell, it may be asked if p?rpp??, "seer, brahmin" might not be used for ?c?rya here, which beside "spiritual teacher, priest" is also used to refer to a master (stonemason, goldsmith). Mind you, it is just a question. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2021 09:53:04 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:******] [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From corinnawessels at yahoo.de Mon Feb 22 14:54:23 2021 From: corinnawessels at yahoo.de (Corinna Wessels-Mevissen) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 14:54:23 +0000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Looking_for_a_PDF_of_=E2=80=9CIconographie_des_=C3=A9toffes_peintes_(Pa=E1=B9=ADa)_dans_le_Ma=C3=B1ju=C5=9Br=C4=ABm=C5=ABlakalpa=E2=80=9D?= In-Reply-To: <866702383.1883457.1614005663678.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <866702383.1883457.1614005663678@mail.yahoo.com> Dear All,A friend of mine who is not on the list would require a PDF of the following title:? Marcelle Lalou, ?Iconographie des ?toffes peintes (Pa?a) dans le Ma?ju?r?m?lakalpa?, Paris (Geuthner) 1930. If there were? a later edition, that would be fine, too. If anyone might be able to share it, that would be wonderful. Regards,Corinna Dr. Corinna Wessels-Mevissen, Berlin/Germany -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Feb 22 15:05:38 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 15:05:38 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <7c53faa5-492c-050f-db1e-4a1f6162679a@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <1d3ec0b1c134433286b8d2ee575fb668@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear Jean-Luc, thank you very much for the information. 24-1-2011 (January) I replied to a message of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, who replied to today. From your message I have learned that the discussion has gone on on other lists in Tamil, initiated by Rajam on 16-2-2021 (February), referring to me as "some foreign Tamil researcher" (?r ayalakattami??yv?l?ar). Too often in Tamil publications I am referred to in this way, as a foreigner, who, by implication, has no right to say anything about Tamil. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2021 09:53:04 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:******] [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Mon Feb 22 15:33:26 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 15:33:26 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] apology for involving the list Message-ID: <74b955c1de6d45a9b2f555c11d694f9e@hum.leidenuniv.nl> I apologize for the fact that the message below was by accident also sent to the list. I do take this opportunity to add that I am glad that I am also a sanskritist: Sanskrit does not have speakers. This is true in the sense that one is not born a Sanskrit speaker, or a "son of Mother Sanskrit", to vary on Tamiltt?y. Dear Jean-Luc, thank you very much for the information. 24-1-2011 (January) I replied to a message of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, who replied to today. From your message I have learned that the discussion has gone on on other lists in Tamil, initiated by Rajam on 16-2-2021 (February), referring to me as "some foreign Tamil researcher" (?r ayalakattami??yv?l?ar). Too often in Tamil publications I am referred to in this way, as a foreigner, who, by implication, has no right to say anything about Tamil. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Mon Feb 22 17:35:56 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 18:35:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <1d3ec0b1c134433286b8d2ee575fb668@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: Dear Herman, as is clear, every ONE has a specific relationship with ONE's mother tongue and ONE's culture. As you could see last week, with the debate about the linguistic requirements for the EPHE post in France, there are different reactions depending on the country. If somebody whose mother tongue is XXX wants to apply for an Indology post in a country CCCC where the "indigenous language" is ZZZ, and says "Give me the post and I promise to be fluent in the ?indigenous language? within two years, the reaction will probably be different if CCC = France CCC = Multilingual Canada CCC = UK CCC = USA CCC = Germany CCC = your country CCC = .... As someone who has tried to learn TRIGLOSSIC Tamil for thirty-nine and a half years, and who still feels very far from that beautifully elusive goal, I am reconciled with the idea that I shall always be -- "A STUDENT OF TAMIL" :-) -- a French mother tongue speaker :-) -- someone who has to spend the greater part of his life struggling with a Lingua Franca (namely English) in which I can never say: "This is how I speak" :-) -- someone interested in many other languages :-) Language and cultures are fascinating but each one is singular. There is NO INTERNATIONAL STANDARD ;-) And you frequently need a visa on your passport :-) C'est la vie :-) ???????? -- Jean-Luc (in M?ssen, Germany, European Union, Planet Earth, Milky Way, ...) https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 16:05, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > Dear Jean-Luc, thank you very much for the information. > > 24-1-2011 (January)?I replied to a message of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, > who replied to today. From your message I have learned that the > discussion has gone on on other lists in Tamil, initiated by Rajam on > 16-2-2021 (February), referring to me as "some foreign Tamil researcher" > (?r ayalakattami??yv?l?ar). Too often in Tamil publications I am referred > to in this way, as a foreigner, who, by implication, has no right to say > anything about Tamil. > > Herman > > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Van:* Jean-Luc Chevillard > *Verzonden:* maandag 22 februari 2021 09:53:04 > *Aan:* indology at list.indology.info > *Onderwerp:* [Spam:******] [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil > Poems > For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, > see: > > https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ > > > > 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) > 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) > 3. ?????? ????? (????????) > 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) > 5. ???? ???? (????????) > 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) > 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) > 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard > > > https://twitter.com/JLC1956 > > > On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: >> Dear Herman, >> >> Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why >> the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences >> should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in >> general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed >> the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) >> >> Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is >> used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival >> participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with >> the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. >> Here are some examples. >> >> /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) >> Here /na?avu/ ?can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The >> NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. >> >> /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) >> Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP >> 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. >> >> /v??? m?lai /?(Pu?. 364.1) >> Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? >> ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. >> >> /eyy? varivil/ ?(Aka. 192.4) >> Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around >> the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to >> discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate >> the rainbow. >> >> The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by >> an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be >> connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym >> can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information >> provided. >> >> Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 >> according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. >> >> In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with >> disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. >> Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology >> (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > >> >), > >> the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. >> So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single >> community that perform different functions and the poets use the same >> general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> >>> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Palaniappan, >>> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/?and the other examples >>> given?mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >>> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/?and///p??a?/refer?to something like a >>> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/?etc, whose members are not restricted to >>> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >>> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >>> type of compound. >>> Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website:hermantieken.com > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Van:*INDOLOGY >> >> namens Tieken, H.J.H. >>> via INDOLOGY >> >> >>> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >>> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >>> Dear Palaniappan, >>> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/?is correct, as is that >>> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >>> compound?(about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/?Wilden's >>> (ad hoc)?interpretation of?this compound runs?as follows: we would >>> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >>> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >>> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >>> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >>> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >>> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >>> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >>> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >>> >>> As to the type of?compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >>> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >>> Note on/vidh?ma/?or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/?at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >>> (1979), 171-189. >>> With kind regards >>> Herman >>> >>> Herman Tieken >>> Stationsweg 58 >>> 2515 BP Den Haag >>> The Netherlands >>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >>> website:hermantieken.com > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *Van:*INDOLOGY >> >> namens Sudalaimuthu >>> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY >> >> >>> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >>> *Aan:*Indology List >>> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >>> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >>> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >>> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >>> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >>> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29).?(See attachment.) I do not know if he has >>> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >>> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >>> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >>> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >>> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >>> thread.?Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >>> called? V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >>> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >>> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >>> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >>> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >>> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >>> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >>> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >>> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >>> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >>> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >>> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >>> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >>> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >>> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >>> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >>> the word ?porunar?. >>> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >>> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >>> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >>> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./?But, we know >>> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >>> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >>> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >>> chief ?ri? gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >>> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >>> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >>> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >>> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >>> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >>> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >>> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >>> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >>> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >>> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >>> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >>> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >>> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >>> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >>> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >>> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >>> In Akam 226,?Pillai?does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >>> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta??Ve?iya?. >>> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >>> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >>> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >>> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined??to ?/P??a?o?u/??to come up with the >>> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/???to fight? is preceded by >>> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >>> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >>> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >>> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >>> interpretation. >>> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >>> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >>> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >>> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >>> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >>> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >>> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >>> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >>> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >>> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >>> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >>> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >>> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >>> Eva Wilden, 2018.? A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >>> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >>> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >>> Regards, >>> Palaniappan >>> >>>???? On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >>>???? >wrote: >>>???? Dear George, >>>???? I appreciate your comments. >>>???? As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >>>???? possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >>>???? when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >>>???? earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >>>???? were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >>>???? resorted to the transliteration I used. >>>???? Thanks >>>???? Regards, >>>???? Palaniappan >>> >>>???? -----Original Message----- >>>???? From: George Hart >> >>>???? To: INDOLOGY >>???? >> >>>???? Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >>>???? Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >>> >>>???? Dear Palaniappan, >>>???? I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >>>???? especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >>>???? alliteration works. ?I hope you publish this, as it is >>>???? significant, I think. ?I am still not convinced by what you say >>>???? about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >>>???? poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >>>???? interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. ?Of course, that >>>???? doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >>>???? tell. ?If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >>>???? the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >>>???? they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >>>???? killed. ?Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >>>???? One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >>>???? the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. ?I believe every >>>???? OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >>>???? George >>>???? On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >>>???? >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>???????? Dear George, >>>???????? Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >>>???????? the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >>>???????? first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >>>???????? found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >>>???????? nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >>>???????? peru- is very common in Tamil.?It was also used in connection >>>???????? with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >>>???????? Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >>>???????? First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >>>???????? unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >>>???????? bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >>>???????? the case of?bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >>>???????? A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >>>???????? names in the absence of dynastic names. ?(Early History of the >>>???????? Andhra Country,?p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >>>???????? tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >>>???????? Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >>>???????? dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-.?In other words we >>>???????? only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >>>???????? instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >>>???????? This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >>>???????? inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >>>???????? Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >>>???????? as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >>>???????? component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >>>???????? suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >>>???????? have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >>>???????? and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >>>???????? independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >>>???????? in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . ?Once the stand-alone form >>>???????? 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >>>???????? mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >>>???????? of bANAsura is?carried out?with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >>>???????? Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >>>???????? bANa > Ta. vANa-. >>>???????? In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >>>???????? 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >>>???????? the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >>>???????? king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >>>???????? The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >>>???????? indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >>>???????? case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >>>???????? word-initial p-. >>>???????? As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >>>???????? chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >>>???????? near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >>>???????? mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >>>???????? mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >>>???????? discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >>>???????? by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >>>???????? serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >>>???????? 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >>>???????? mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >>>???????? of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >>>???????? it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >>>???????? ?were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >>>???????? century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >>>???????? to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >>>???????? moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >>>???????? country over several centuries. >>>???????? In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >>>???????? referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >>>???????? called the bANas. >>>???????? kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >>>???????? well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >>>???????? /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >>>???????? /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >>>???????? /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >>>???????? We should take the dynatic?names mentioned?here as individuals >>>???????? belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >>>???????? dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >>>???????? country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >>>???????? Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >>>???????? surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >>> >>>???????? The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >>>???????? nature as in akam. 336 below. >>> >>>???????? /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >>> >>>???????? /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >>> >>>???????? /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >>> >>>???????? /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >>> >>>???????? Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >>> >>>???????? Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >>>???????? cOza fighters >>> >>>???????? /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >>> >>>???????? /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >>> >>>???????? /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >>> >>>???????? So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >>>???????? battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >>>???????? chief, 'perumakan2'.?It is possible the pANan2 chief might >>>???????? have sent his forces without joining them. >>> >>>???????? As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >>>???????? consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >>>???????? fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >>>???????? while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >>>???????? move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >>>???????? do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >>>???????? the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >>>???????? will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >>>???????? looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >>>???????? be fighters and not bards. >>> >>>???????? Regards, >>> >>>???????? Palaniappan >>> >>> >>> >>>???????? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >>> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >>> >indology-owner at list.indology.info >>> >(messages to the list's >>> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >>> >(where > you can change your list >>> options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) >> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you > can change your list options or unsubscribe) >> > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you > can change your list options or unsubscribe) From palaniappa at aol.com Tue Feb 23 01:00:06 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 19:00:06 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <5DA3BD5E-969C-4842-9EFA-BC1EA63ADB15.ref@aol.com> Message-ID: <5DA3BD5E-969C-4842-9EFA-BC1EA63ADB15@aol.com> Dear Herman, I do not think it likely that ?p?rpp??? in Akam 24 referred to a stonemason or goldsmith despite the goldsmiths calling themselves later Vi?vakarma Br?hma?a. They are not presented as serving as priests in the rest of the Classical Tamil poetry. But a potter is a priest in Na?. 293. And potters serve as priests till today in Tamil Nadu Ku?u. 156 refers to the unwritten texts learnt by a p?rpp?? who is most likely a brahmin based on other information in the poem. Akam 337 has a p?rpp?? serving as an emissary carrying a palm leaf, apparently with a message written on it. Given the brahmins? attitude towards writing, it is unlikely this p?rpp?? was a brahmin. We have Tamil writings on pottery from the earliest times. These were most likely written by potters. Moreover, as I have posted several years ago, even during medieval times, Brahmin sabh?s engaged potter scribes/accountants. The chief scribe/accountant in the Tiruv?r?r temple was a potter during the later P???iya times. The number of potter scribes/accountants is overwhelmingly larger than goldsmiths. While engraving on copper plate grants involved metal workers, even in these cases, and stonemasons were involved in stone inscriptions, there was likely a palm leaf document which needed to be signed and involved potters in many cases. In any case, we do not have any instance of stone masons or smiths serving as ambassadors. We also have an emissary in the Peru?katai (4.4.36-84 and 4.9.47-48), the Tamil version of B?hatkath?, who is a potter. We have no instance of goldsmiths as emissaries. Hope this helps. Regards, Palaniappan From: "Tieken, H.J.H." Date: Monday, February 22, 2021 at 4:36 AM To: Jean-Luc Chevillard , "indology at list.indology.info" Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems Dear list members, or those interested in the details of poetic Ca?kam vocabulary, Given the fact that the v?l??p p?r?pp??, "a p?rpp?? who does not sacrifice". in the Akan????u is an artisan cutting bangles from conchshell, it may be asked if p?rpp??, "seer, brahmin" might not be used for ?c?rya here, which beside "spiritual teacher, priest" is also used to refer to a master (stonemason, goldsmith). Mind you, it is just a question. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2021 09:53:04 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:******] [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rajam at earthlink.net Tue Feb 23 04:17:37 2021 From: rajam at earthlink.net (rajam) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 21 20:17:37 -0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: apology for involving the list In-Reply-To: <74b955c1de6d45a9b2f555c11d694f9e@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Message-ID: <46C63088-ED57-46C7-9235-1225A94C9F06@earthlink.net> Dear Professor Tieken, Hope you?re doing well in this difficult CORONA Times. We are managing things ok in California. God bless the world. Professor Tieken, no offense meant but I wonder why you have taken my wording ??? ?????? ???????????? (?r ayalakattami??yv?l?ar) as pointing to you!! It could refer to Dr. S. Palaniappan or anyone else! I guess there?s a problem in translating my phrase ??? ?????? ????????????. Here, you have translated ??? as ?some,? while I meant ?one.? As you well know, ??? can be translated as ?a/one/specific.? It is not derogative at all. ?????? ???????????? could refer to anyone such as myself, George Hart, Palaniappan, Jean-Luc Chevillard, and some other friends of mine who are very much interested in Tamil and ask me questions now and then. We all live in foreign countries, so we all are ?????? ????????????. Anyway, as I said, no offense please. In any case, I wish to respond to your query about "this type of compound." I?ll reply soon. Meantime, peace. Thanks and regards, rajam > On Feb 22, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. wrote: > > I apologize for the fact that the message below was by accident also sent to the list. I do take this opportunity to add that I am glad that I am also a sanskritist: Sanskrit does not have speakers. This is true in the sense that one is not born a Sanskrit speaker, or a "son of Mother Sanskrit", to vary on Tamiltt?y. > > Dear Jean-Luc, thank you very much for the information. > 24-1-2011 (January) I replied to a message of Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan, who replied to today. From your message I have learned that the discussion has gone on on other lists in Tamil, initiated by Rajam on 16-2-2021 (February), referring to me as "some foreign Tamil researcher" (?r ayalakattami??yv?l?ar). Too often in Tamil publications I am referred to in this way, as a foreigner, who, by implication, has no right to say anything about Tamil. > Herman > > > > > Herman Tieken > Stationsweg 58 > 2515 BP Den Haag > The Netherlands > 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > website: hermantieken.com _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 04:28:44 2021 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 12:28:44 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Tamil tombstones inscriptions Message-ID: Dear friends, I am helping the local Hindu Association to catalogue some 19th century tombstones here in Hong Kong. I wonder if someone could help me to transcribe the Tamil inscription and to direct me to some resources on the practice of tombstone inscription in Tamil. I include some photos here. Please contact me either on or off list. Many thanks, Bill Mak -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 207071 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image1.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 149210 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image3.jpeg Type: image/jpeg Size: 158952 bytes Desc: not available URL: From antonio.jardim at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 05:33:36 2021 From: antonio.jardim at gmail.com (Antonio Ferreira-Jardim) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 15:33:36 +1000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?[INDOLOGY]_Re:_Looking_for_a_PDF_of_=E2=80=9CIconographie_des_=C3=A9toffes_peintes_(Pa=E1=B9=ADa)_dans_le_Ma=C3=B1ju=C5=9Br=C4=ABm=C5=ABlakalpa=E2=80=9D?= In-Reply-To: <866702383.1883457.1614005663678@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Dr Wessels-Mevissen, This book is still available in print: https://geuthner.com/livre/iconographie-des-%C3%A9toffes-peintes-(pata)/1008 Given that Mme Lalou passed away in 1967 this work may still be copyright protected. Kind regards, Antonio On Tue., 23 Feb. 2021, 00:55 Corinna Wessels-Mevissen via INDOLOGY, < indology at list.indology.info> wrote: > Dear All, > A friend of mine who is not on the list would require a PDF of the > following title: > Marcelle Lalou, ?Iconographie des ?toffes peintes (Pa?a) dans le > Ma?ju?r?m?lakalpa?, Paris (Geuthner) 1930. If there were a later edition, > that would be fine, too. > If anyone might be able to share it, that would be wonderful. > Regards, > Corinna > > Dr. Corinna Wessels-Mevissen, Berlin/Germany > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl Tue Feb 23 06:53:24 2021 From: H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl (Tieken, H.J.H.) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 06:53:24 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <5DA3BD5E-969C-4842-9EFA-BC1EA63ADB15@aol.com> Message-ID: <5c352adba74a415aa7d8943987466eb0@hum.leidenuniv.nl> Dear Panaiappan, what I meant is that the group of people called p?r?pp?? could include ?c?ryas, which term beside spiritual teacher is also used for a master stonemason, goldsmith or any other artisan. So, a p?rpp?? who does not officiate at sacrifices and other rituals could be an ?c?rya in the sense of master artisan. As I wrote, it is just an idea.. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan Verzonden: dinsdag 23 februari 2021 02:00:06 Aan: Tieken, H.J.H.; Jean-Luc Chevillard; indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:*******] Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems Dear Herman, I do not think it likely that ?p?rpp??? in Akam 24 referred to a stonemason or goldsmith despite the goldsmiths calling themselves later Vi?vakarma Br?hma?a. They are not presented as serving as priests in the rest of the Classical Tamil poetry. But a potter is a priest in Na?. 293. And potters serve as priests till today in Tamil Nadu Ku?u. 156 refers to the unwritten texts learnt by a p?rpp?? who is most likely a brahmin based on other information in the poem. Akam 337 has a p?rpp?? serving as an emissary carrying a palm leaf, apparently with a message written on it. Given the brahmins? attitude towards writing, it is unlikely this p?rpp?? was a brahmin. We have Tamil writings on pottery from the earliest times. These were most likely written by potters. Moreover, as I have posted several years ago, even during medieval times, Brahmin sabh?s engaged potter scribes/accountants. The chief scribe/accountant in the Tiruv?r?r temple was a potter during the later P???iya times. The number of potter scribes/accountants is overwhelmingly larger than goldsmiths. While engraving on copper plate grants involved metal workers, even in these cases, and stonemasons were involved in stone inscriptions, there was likely a palm leaf document which needed to be signed and involved potters in many cases. In any case, we do not have any instance of stone masons or smiths serving as ambassadors. We also have an emissary in the Peru?katai (4.4.36-84 and 4.9.47-48), the Tamil version of B?hatkath?, who is a potter. We have no instance of goldsmiths as emissaries. Hope this helps. Regards, Palaniappan From: "Tieken, H.J.H." Date: Monday, February 22, 2021 at 4:36 AM To: Jean-Luc Chevillard , "indology at list.indology.info" Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: [Spam:******] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems Dear list members, or those interested in the details of poetic Ca?kam vocabulary, Given the fact that the v?l??p p?r?pp??, "a p?rpp?? who does not sacrifice". in the Akan????u is an artisan cutting bangles from conchshell, it may be asked if p?rpp??, "seer, brahmin" might not be used for ?c?rya here, which beside "spiritual teacher, priest" is also used to refer to a master (stonemason, goldsmith). Mind you, it is just a question. Herman Herman Tieken Stationsweg 58 2515 BP Den Haag The Netherlands 00 31 (0)70 2208127 website: hermantieken.com ________________________________ Van: Jean-Luc Chevillard Verzonden: maandag 22 februari 2021 09:53:04 Aan: indology at list.indology.info Onderwerp: [Spam:******] [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il Tue Feb 23 07:00:15 2021 From: eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il (Eviatar Shulman) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 09:00:15 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Job Announcement: a new position in Buddhist Studies at the Hebrew University Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I am happy to announce the new position in Buddhist Studies at the University. Please see the announcement below. With best wishes, Eviatar Shulman The Faculty of the Humanities at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem invites applications for the Khyentse Lectureship/Professorship in Buddhist Studies, a tenure-track position (open rank) in Buddhist Studies, with a preference for Tibetan Buddhism. The position is funded through the generous support of Khyentse Foundation, and is designed to be situated in the Department of Comparative Religion, with the possibility of a joint appointment with the Department of Asian Studies or other relevant departments, depending on the chosen candidate?s intellectual profile. The position is open to all candidates who have attained a Ph.D. degree, and to advanced doctoral students who expect to be granted their Ph.D. no later than June 30, 2021. *Job requirements:* Responsibilities include the teaching of required and elective courses in the candidate?s field(s) of specialization (at the B.A. and M.A. degree levels). Successful candidates are expected to conduct independent and original research at the highest academic level, demonstrate academic leadership, compete for Israeli and international research grants, and should display an ability to work cooperatively with colleagues in the Faculty of Humanities and the university at large. The Hebrew University?s primary language of instruction is Hebrew. However, the possibility of teaching courses in English will be available. Candidates whose Hebrew proficiency is such that they would not be comfortable teaching in Hebrew will be encouraged to sufficiently master the language during the initial years following their appointment. Qualified candidates will be invited for a campus visit, which will include a job talk, an interview and meetings with department members. Given the current situation, campus visits are expected to take place on Zoom. For further details, please contact the Dr. Eviatar Shulman, Head of the Search Committee, at eviatar.shulman at mail.huji.ac.il. Completed applications must be submitted by April 6, 2021 Detailed instructions regarding the online submission of applications and additional information can be found at the Faculty of the Humanities website at - https://hum.huji.ac.il/applications-tenure-track-0 -- Dr. Eviatar Shulman Senior Lecturer Department of Religious Studies Department of Asian Studies The Hebrew University of Jerusalem http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/religion/buddhism-and-eastern-religions/rethinking-buddha-early-buddhist-philosophy-meditative-perception -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kushdepala at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 08:58:47 2021 From: kushdepala at gmail.com (Kush Depala) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 09:58:47 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 46th Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions Message-ID: Apologies for the cross posting. We are pleased to announce the programme for the 46th Spalding Symposium on Indian Religions, to be held online from April 23-25, 2021. Full programme: https://spaldingsymposium.org Ticket registration: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/46th-spalding-symposium-on-indian-religions-tickets-142207834461 Kush on behalf of the Spalding Symposium Organising Committee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr Tue Feb 23 09:04:21 2021 From: francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Patte?=) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 10:04:21 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] test Message-ID: <94c34484-f02c-cae2-78fe-46fe4570b1a1@mi.parisdescartes.fr> My two previous messages were rejected. I test with a new one, sorry. -- Fran?ois Patte UFR de math?matiques et informatique Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 Universit? Paris Descartes 45, rue des Saints P?res F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte FSF https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf From francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr Tue Feb 23 10:00:56 2021 From: francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Patte?=) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 11:00:56 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: who are they? In-Reply-To: <2b4aba59-7975-7a0f-f2b8-a77547b33615@mi.parisdescartes.fr> Message-ID: <730d80b7-a04d-da39-3600-07422d2478f7@mi.parisdescartes.fr> Bonjour, I sent this message two days ago and it is still waiting for a moderator advice... I (think) I have found the reason why: my messages have an electronic signature attached and the robot seems to not like too much this! I hope that this message with no signature will reach the list. Best regards. -- Fran?ois Patte UFR de math?matiques et informatique Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 Universit? Paris Descartes 45, rue des Saints P?res F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte FSF https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 3094 URL: From manufrancis at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 13:16:38 2021 From: manufrancis at gmail.com (Manu Francis) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 14:16:38 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Tamil tombstones inscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Bill, Thanks for this interesting material! I am willing to contribute ... if time permits ;-) Could you share more (and higher-resolution) pictures? Here is my quick reading and translation of one of these (?image3?). (1) {pi??aiy?r c??i} (2) cival?kam? ? (3) p??avar?ka?? A- (4) ?aiy??am? ? (5) mut?tiya?? Ira?- ? (6) ??vatu kum??a? (7) cantirappi??ai ? (8) ye?anta n?? ? (9) ? Sign/mark [of/for] one who has gone [to]/ reached the ?ival?ka. The day when Cantirappi??ai, the son of Muttiya? the second, died (ye?anta, i.e. i?anta) [is] ? [the date appears to be stated in lines 8-9, which I am unable to read.] As for references, you could check Cotton, Julian James. List of Inscriptions on Tombs or Monuments in Madras: Possessing Historical or Archaeological Interest. 2 vols. Edited by B. S. Baliga. Madras: Government Press, 1946. [available, I think, on internet archives] Here are some pictures of late-20th/21st-century epitaphs, dating back to the good old days when fieldwork in India was possible. These were taken at the entrance of an Aiyanar temple in Pudukkottai district, between K?ra??r and Vir?limalai: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qky65bxbtg5ex8b/AADuTv5N2cXPZ8UDg6-CGTUEa?dl=0 Maybe knowledgeable colleagues in this list might enlighten me on this practice. With very best wishes. Manu Emmanuel FRANCIS Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) Online CV HAL DHARMA Project (ERC synergy grant 2018) TST Project (FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG) Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture Le mar. 23 f?vr. 2021 ? 05:29, Bill Mak a ?crit : > Dear friends, > I am helping the local Hindu Association to catalogue some 19th century > tombstones here in Hong Kong. I wonder if someone could help me to > transcribe the Tamil inscription and to direct me to some resources on the > practice of tombstone inscription in Tamil. I include some photos here. > Please contact me either on or off list. > Many thanks, > Bill Mak > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lucian at ochs.org.uk Tue Feb 23 15:13:02 2021 From: lucian at ochs.org.uk (Lucian Wong) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 15:13:02 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] STIMW 2021 - proposal submission deadline Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, This is a reminder that the deadline for proposal submissions for this year's Sanskrit Traditions in the Modern World Symposium (online) is the end of this week, i.e. *February 28, 2021*. *The 37th Annual Sanskrit Traditions in the Modern World Symposium* *Friday 28th May 2021* Hosted online by the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies The 37th annual STIMW symposium will take place *online* on Friday 28th May, 2021, hosted by the Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies. We invite proposals for papers on any aspect of South Asia?s rich Sanskrit religious and intellectual culture. Proposals of no more 300 words should be submitted by *28th February 2021*. They should be sent to the organising committee: *stimw at ochs.org.uk .* Sanskrit Traditions in the Modern World (STIMW) is a forum for the discussion of the Sanskrit traditions of South Asia, and the texts and cultures that have arisen out of them. Older archives and information for past STIMW events at the University of Manchester can be found here: https://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/religions-and-theology/connect/events/stimw/ *Papers and Format *- Papers are presented by leading scholars in the field as well as by research students. Papers are pre-circulated so that participants can read them before the seminar to ensure the best possible use of discussion time. Papers are therefore not read out at the seminar itself but instead briefly introduced by the chair who will then raise questions to the paper-giver, before opening the discussion. Papers should be no longer than 20 A4 pages, including notes and references. To facilitate discussion for those short of reading time, paper-givers should provide a one-page abstract of the key argument of the paper, along with their paper. Please include your email address for further feedback. -- Lucian Wong Fellow, Oxford Centre for Hindu Studies 13-15 Magdalen Street, Oxford, OX1 3AE The Legacy of Vai??avism in Colonial Bengal https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9780203710326 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.ollett at gmail.com Tue Feb 23 20:05:25 2021 From: andrew.ollett at gmail.com (Andrew Ollett) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 21 14:05:25 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Question about a Portuguese text purportedly translating Sanskrit verses Message-ID: Dear all, I am forwarding this to the list on behalf of Whitney Cox. If you have suggestions please write to him directly: wmcox at uchicago.edu Andrew --------------------- Dear colleagues, I recently received a query from Jorge Flores at the University of Lisbon about a passage in a source he is working on. In this words, [begin quote from JF] "The piece revolves around a peculiar Portuguese text penned by a Hindu Brahman of Goa called Bahuguna Kamath in 1739 who worked for the Portuguese as interpreter and political broker. Bahuguna is at that point involved in diplomatic negotiations with the Marathas and one of his opponents is a Maratha general called Dadaji Rao. Among other discussions, they have an interesting dialogue anchored in a brief exchange of Sanskrit verses. It goes like this (my rough English translation from the Portuguese original): (Dadaji says:) *Friend is the one who comes to a friend?s rescue by providing aid in a timely manner, like the hand helps the foot by removing a thorn at once when [the foot] happens to step on one. [A friend] is ready to expose himself to the great danger of being wounded in order to stop the blow of a sword when it hangs over one?s head or any other part of one?s body? * (And Bahauguna responds:) *Discord will never affect the solid friendship between worldly, constant men who have plenty of fine qualities. It is like the moon, even if distant and covered with snows; when that flower called cumoda blooms in the moonlight the snows are unable to erase the love the said flower feels for the moon?. * My question is: does this make any sense to you? Are these "real" sanskrit verses, close to something one can recognize as such, or rather an artful, "exotic" creation of the author?" [end JF quote] While I was able to confirm to Prof. Flores that these sounded like they could *potentially* be "'real' Sanskrit verses", and to explain a tiny bit about the portable nature of subh??ita-s, and to point him to a few pieces of secondary scholarship, I could not identify any possible originals. I was hoping that these might be apparent to my learned colleagues on the INDOLOGY list. For whatever it might be worth, I suggested to Prof. Flores that the first of these (i.e. Dadaji's 'turn') this might in fact consist of two verses in succession, making a total three possible Sanskrit padyas. Thank you all very much. Please don't hesitate to write to me directly (I am no longer on the listserve) at wmcox at uchicago.edu Best wishes, Whitney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bill.m.mak at gmail.com Wed Feb 24 12:36:08 2021 From: bill.m.mak at gmail.com (Bill Mak) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 21 20:36:08 +0800 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Tamil tombstones inscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <25D3F969-9184-4CB1-B56A-6614C063957D@gmail.com> Many thanks to Manu and also others who replied offline. I can now compare the Tamil inscriptions with the English version as well as the content of other tombstones. What interested me initially was why the tombstones are there on the ground of a Hindu Temple in the first place. Some of the suggestions include: infant burials, military cenotaphs, memorials for wealthy family, lingayat followers who are considered Hindus but do not cremate their bodies, non-Hindu spouses and children, etc. -- Bill M. Mak Needham Research Institute 8 Sylvester Road Cambridge, CB3 9AF United Kingdom Robinson College Cambridge University Grange Road, Cambridge, CB3 9AN United Kingdom Tel:+44-1223768229 http://www.billmak.com https://needham.academia.edu/BillMak > On 23 Feb 2021, at 21:16, Manu Francis wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > > > > Thanks for this interesting material! > > I am willing to contribute ... if time permits ;-) > > Could you share more (and higher-resolution) pictures? > > > Here is my quick reading and translation of one of these (?image3?). > > > (1) {pi??aiy?r c??i} > > (2) cival?kam? ? > > (3) p??avar?ka?? A- > > (4) ?aiy??am? ? > > (5) mut?tiya?? Ira?- ? > > (6) ??vatu kum??a? > > (7) cantirappi??ai ? > > (8) ye?anta n?? ? > > (9) ? > > > Sign/mark [of/for] one who has gone [to]/ reached the ?ival?ka. > > The day when Cantirappi??ai, the son of Muttiya? the second, died (ye?anta, i.e. i?anta) [is] ? [the date appears to be stated in lines 8-9, which I am unable to read.] > > > As for references, you could check > > Cotton, Julian James. List of Inscriptions on Tombs or Monuments in Madras: Possessing > > Historical or Archaeological Interest. 2 vols. Edited by B. S. Baliga. Madras: Government > > Press, 1946. [available, I think, on internet archives] > > > Here are some pictures of late-20th/21st-century epitaphs, dating back to the good old days when fieldwork in India was possible. These were taken at the entrance of an Aiyanar temple in Pudukkottai district, between K?ra??r and Vir?limalai: > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qky65bxbtg5ex8b/AADuTv5N2cXPZ8UDg6-CGTUEa?dl=0 > Maybe knowledgeable colleagues in this list might enlighten me on this practice. > > > With very best wishes. > > > Manu > > > > Emmanuel FRANCIS > Charg? de recherche CNRS, Centre d'?tudes de l'Inde et de l'Asie du Sud (UMR 8564, EHESS-CNRS, Paris) > Online CV HAL > DHARMA Project (ERC synergy grant 2018) > TST Project (FRAL 2018, ANR & DFG) > Regionalism & Cosmopolitism: South India > Associate member, Centre for the Study of Manuscript Culture > > > Le mar. 23 f?vr. 2021 ? 05:29, Bill Mak > a ?crit : > Dear friends, > I am helping the local Hindu Association to catalogue some 19th century tombstones here in Hong Kong. I wonder if someone could help me to transcribe the Tamil inscription and to direct me to some resources on the practice of tombstone inscription in Tamil. I include some photos here. Please contact me either on or off list. > Many thanks, > Bill Mak > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From palaniappa at aol.com Wed Feb 24 19:54:58 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 21 13:54:58 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <7c53faa5-492c-050f-db1e-4a1f6162679a@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <0BD2121B-E7C5-4BFD-B93C-5E68EE669254@aol.com> Dear JLC, Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called 've?ippa?ai'. Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages. That is why I was surprised that commentators like V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap p??a?'. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" wrote: For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From palaniappa at aol.com Wed Feb 24 20:03:53 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 21 14:03:53 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <0BD2121B-E7C5-4BFD-B93C-5E68EE669254@aol.com> Message-ID: <8EA1DB37-8606-4E6C-923F-20277E409CEB@aol.com> Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" wrote: Dear JLC, Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called 've?ippa?ai'. Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages. That is why I was surprised that commentators like V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap p??a?'. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" wrote: For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From palaniappa at aol.com Wed Feb 24 20:07:19 2021 From: palaniappa at aol.com (Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 21 14:07:19 -0600 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <8EA1DB37-8606-4E6C-923F-20277E409CEB@aol.com> Message-ID: Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. Sorry. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" wrote: Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" wrote: Dear JLC, Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called 've?ippa?ai'. Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages. That is why I was surprised that commentators like V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap p??a?'. Regards, Palaniappan ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" wrote: For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, see: https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) 3. ?????? ????? (????????) 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) 5. ???? ???? (????????) 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > Dear Herman, > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > Here are some examples. > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > the rainbow. > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > provided. > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > ), > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> > > wrote: >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples >> given mentione by you. >From these constructions it would appear that >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this >> type of compound. >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Tieken, H.J.H. >> via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) >> >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> (1979), 171-189. >> With kind regards >> Herman >> >> Herman Tieken >> Stationsweg 58 >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> The Netherlands >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> website:hermantieken.com >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > > namens Sudalaimuthu >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> *Aan:*Indology List >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by >> the word ?porunar?. >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s >> interpretation. >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> wrote: >> Dear George, >> I appreciate your comments. >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I >> resorted to the transliteration I used. >> Thanks >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: George Hart > >> To: INDOLOGY > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems >> >> Dear Palaniappan, >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. >> George >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Dear George, >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with >> word-initial p-. >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil >> country over several centuries. >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later >> called the bANas. >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. >> >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same >> nature as in akam. 336 below. >> >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) >> >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. >> >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the >> cOza fighters >> >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might >> have sent his forces without joining them. >> >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should >> be fighters and not bards. >> >> Regards, >> >> Palaniappan >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> (messages to the list's >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> (where you can change your list >> options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Thu Feb 25 08:13:43 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 21 09:13:43 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45214b67-6d43-43ef-abcb-152ed497e35b@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Dear Palaniappan, thanks for this. Maybe one could add to the list of such usages the phrase ????? ??????? [aruvi y-?mpal], which was considered as striking enough to be chose as a title for the poem Pati??uppattu 63 (which is part of the decade composed by Kapilar) -- Jean-Luc https://twitter.com/JLC1956 On 24/02/2021 21:07, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: > Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. > > Sorry. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" wrote: > > Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" wrote: > > Dear JLC, > > Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called 've?ippa?ai'. Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages. > > That is why I was surprised that commentators like V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap p??a?'. > > Regards, > Palaniappan > > > ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" wrote: > > For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a Tamil mailing list, > see: > > https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ > > > 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) > 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) > 3. ?????? ????? (????????) > 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) > 5. ???? ???? (????????) > 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) > 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) > 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) > > > -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard > > > https://twitter.com/JLC1956 > > > On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via INDOLOGY wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > > > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in Indology, why > > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in all occurrences > > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning ?a priest? in > > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I have discussed > > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in Indology.) > > > > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances where a homonym is > > used in an expression following a verb used as a negative adjectival > > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression cannot be used with > > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other unique meaning. > > Here are some examples. > > > > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) > > Here /na?avu/ can mean toddy as well as a city in the C?ra domain. The > > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. > > > > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) > > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of dance. The NAP > > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. > > > > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) > > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The NAP v??? > > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. > > > > /eyy? varivil/ (Aka. 192.4) > > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of material tied around > > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and ?/ey/? means ?to > > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is used to indicate > > the rainbow. > > > > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can sometimes be linked by > > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. They can also be > > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated by the homonym > > can use the same verb we need to look at other contextual information > > provided. > > > > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 or 52-55 or 52-56 > > according to different commentators) deals with this use of homonyms. > > > > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are not dealing with > > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper versus dance. > > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology > > (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA > > ), > > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards and warriors. > > So, in these cases, we are talking about different subsets of a single > > community that perform different functions and the poets use the same > > general technique we described above to uniquely identify the subset. > > > > Regards, > > Palaniappan > > > > > >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. > >> >> > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Palaniappan, > >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other examples > >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it would appear that > >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to something like a > >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not restricted to > >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, before being able to > >> say something more in this line we have to have more examples of this > >> type of compound. > >> Herman > >> > >> Herman Tieken > >> Stationsweg 58 > >> 2515 BP Den Haag > >> The Netherlands > >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > >> website:hermantieken.com > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Van:*INDOLOGY >> > namens Tieken, H.J.H. > >> via INDOLOGY >> > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 > >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology > >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems > >> Dear Palaniappan, > >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, as is that > >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of this type of > >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p p?rppa?/ Wilden's > >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as follows: we would > >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) making a living > >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable to do so by > >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your interpretation applies: we > >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name as a brahmin > >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter by/v?l??/. > >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil Ca?kam Poetry: > >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. p. 294-5 and > >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf link on my website) > >> > >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article at hand, but I > >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert van Daalen in "A > >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 > >> (1979), 171-189. > >> With kind regards > >> Herman > >> > >> Herman Tieken > >> Stationsweg 58 > >> 2515 BP Den Haag > >> The Netherlands > >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 > >> website:hermantieken.com > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> *Van:*INDOLOGY >> > namens Sudalaimuthu > >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY >> > > >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 > >> *Aan:*Indology List > >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems > >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. > >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s interpretation of > >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes these comments in > >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of his commentary on > >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do not know if he has > >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. > >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler P??a? belonged to > >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that did not engage in > >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling the land. He > >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed earlier in the > >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? were later > >> called V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s > >> interpretation has been accepted by many later scholars such as Ve. > >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: 141). This confirms > >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not making music?. (For > >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music making, see > >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) > >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical edition of > >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? > >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden got only half of > >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the bard?. But, Wilden > >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- 'to rise'. It > >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed musical instrument; > >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is ?the bard who does > >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the converse of/'por?ap > >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting warriors? is used to > >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can be denoted by > >> the word ?porunar?. > >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to describe > >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of the name of the > >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, ?/p??a?,?/and not > >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic origin/./ But, we know > >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from Pu?am 302. But, > >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we have that > >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 according to which the > >> chief ?ri gave ?the good country with small hills to K??iyar?. Pillai > >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, P??ar were known > >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, K??iyar, Iyavar, and > >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have received some > >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil region, which could > >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became the B??as. > >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not impossible for one to > >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple inscription South > >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several members of the > >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai V??aikk?rar, Terinta > >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians (pp.299-300). > >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern Tamil border area > >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As I already noted > >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the Cudappah district > >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen to drift all the > >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th century Mahad? > >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. > >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an ally of Ka??i who > >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king Titta? Ve?iya?. > >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the Ch??a king, the > >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like V??ka?ac?mi N????r > >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily add a word > >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to come up with the > >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? is preceded by > >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by the subject of the > >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was influenced by > >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? as an ally of > >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has followed N?tt?r?s > >> interpretation. > >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of Love.Institut Fran?ais > >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. > >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, Citamparam. > >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai ?kum Akan????u > >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, Mayil?pp?r. > >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, 1946. > >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. Tirunelv?li, > >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. > >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya Ai?ku?un??u > >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip palkalaik > >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. > >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. P???a? > >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. > >> Eva Wilden, 2018. A Critical Edition and an Annotated Translation of > >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut > >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. > >> Regards, > >> Palaniappan > >> > >> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com > >> wrote: > >> Dear George, > >> I appreciate your comments. > >> As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic fonts too whenever > >> possible. In my first post, I did use the diacritic fonts. But, > >> when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic fonts in my > >> earlier post showed up as question marks in my Mac. Since there > >> were not too many participants in the thread, to be safe, I > >> resorted to the transliteration I used. > >> Thanks > >> Regards, > >> Palaniappan > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: George Hart > > >> To: INDOLOGY >> > > >> Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm > >> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems > >> > >> Dear Palaniappan, > >> I think you have made a good case for P??a? and B??a, and > >> especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as even the > >> alliteration works. I hope you publish this, as it is > >> significant, I think. I am still not convinced by what you say > >> about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after reading many Sangam > >> poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your > >> interpretation just doesn't sound right to me. Of course, that > >> doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's really no way to > >> tell. If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, more likely, in > >> the middle of one side playing their drums), and a battle started, > >> they'd still be looking in front and behind them to avoid being > >> killed. Thanks for an intriguing and informative analysis. > >> One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's very hard to read > >> the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. I believe every > >> OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit unicode. > >> George > >> On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear George, > >> Please see the attached inscription. What can one say about > >> the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? Which comes > >> first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The modifier 'peru' is > >> found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar (mentioned in > >> nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, etc. The title > >> peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also used in connection > >> with different professions as in perumpANan2 and perunAvican2. > >> Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? > >> First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a dynasty is very > >> unusual. The only other so-called dynastic title I know of, > >> bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at all. In fact, in > >> the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, according to K. > >> A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply used the gotra > >> names in the absence of dynastic names. (Early History of the > >> Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is only in the > >> tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence of 'bRhad-bANa'. > >> Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the members of the > >> dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In other words we > >> only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in Tamil we find many > >> instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. > >> This leads one to infer that the author of the tALagunda > >> inscription was simply translating the name perumpANan2 into > >> Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal -m- is pronounced > >> as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered the first > >> component as bRhad and kept the second part as bANa. This > >> suggests that the original form of the dynastic name should > >> have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that in the Kannada > >> and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced as 'bANa' either > >> independently or influenced by the pronunciation of '- pANan2' > >> in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' . Once the stand-alone form > >> 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using a Sanskrit > >> mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to mahAbali, father > >> of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic title as 'bANa'. > >> Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back into Tamil, Skt. > >> bANa > Ta. vANa-. > >> In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription no. 1971/54 of the > >> 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a vANakO atiraicar. In > >> the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th year of the same > >> king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. > >> The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to the homophon > >> indicating bard as well as the chieftain suggesting in this > >> case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' too with > >> word-initial p-. > >> As for the domicile and area controlled by the pANan2/bANa > >> chiefs, it has varied historically. They might have started > >> near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu inscription is found > >> mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of akam.155 > >> mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. 629 for a > >> discussion of this.) Then they could have moved north so that > >> by the 4th century they are found near zrIparvata hill. After > >> serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola dynasties, in the > >> 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with titles such as > >> mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., controlling parts > >> of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As a parallel case, > >> it should be noted that a branch of the Cholas, Telugu Cholas, > >> were controlling areas around Sonepur in Orissa in the 12th > >> century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit tracing their descent > >> to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) progressively > >> moving northeast from the area to the north of the Tamil > >> country over several centuries. > >> In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam 113 and 226 > >> referred to one or more members of the same lineage later > >> called the bANas. > >> kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned in akam 44 as > >> well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. > >> /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. 44.8)/ > >> /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ > >> /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) > >> We should take the dynatic names mentioned here as individuals > >> belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like the bAnas, these > >> dynasties were also in the northern border of the Tamil > >> country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western Ganga dynasty. > >> Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it is not > >> surprising that pANar allied themselves with vicci or kaTTi. > >> > >> The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 is of the same > >> nature as in akam. 336 below. > >> > >> /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ > >> > >> /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ > >> > >> /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ > >> > >> /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. 336.20-23) > >> > >> Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the cOza fighters. > >> > >> Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below referring to the > >> cOza fighters > >> > >> /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ > >> > >> /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ > >> > >> /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) > >> > >> So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would have joined the > >> battle on the side of the vicciyar who might be led by their > >> chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 chief might > >> have sent his forces without joining them. > >> > >> As for non-fighters standing between the two armies, I > >> consider it highly unlikely they were standing in between the > >> fighting armies. They have to be really standing on the side > >> while the battle is raging and in that case they will only > >> move their gaze from side to side and not front and back. So I > >> do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid here. At least if > >> the description applies to the fighters, then their behavior > >> will parallel the warriors whether it is their fierce look or > >> looking forward and backward, So, the looking persons should > >> be fighters and not bards. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Palaniappan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing > >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info > >> indology-owner at list.indology.info > >> (messages to the list's > >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info > >> (where you can change your list > >> options or unsubscribe) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) > > > > > > From jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr Thu Feb 25 08:34:36 2021 From: jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr (Jean-Luc Chevillard) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 21 09:34:36 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: On the Date of Classical Tamil Poems In-Reply-To: <45214b67-6d43-43ef-abcb-152ed497e35b@univ-paris-diderot.fr> Message-ID: <97fbc528-8c7b-8764-b849-b2a359929d67@univ-paris-diderot.fr> * chose --> "chosen" On 25/02/2021 09:13, Jean-Luc Chevillard wrote: > Dear Palaniappan, > > thanks for this. > > Maybe one could add to the list of such usages the phrase ????? ??????? > [aruvi y-?mpal], which was considered as striking enough to be chose as > a title for the poem Pati??uppattu 63 (which is part of the decade > composed by Kapilar) > > -- Jean-Luc > > https://twitter.com/JLC1956 > > > On 24/02/2021 21:07, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan wrote: >> Oops, I meant to correct 'ur?ak kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. >> >> Sorry. >> >> Regards, >> Palaniappan >> >> ?On 2/24/21, 2:04 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" >> wrote: >> >> ???? Sorry, please correct 'ur?k kutirai' to be '?r?k kutirai'. >> >> ???? Regards, >> ???? Palaniappan >> >> ???? ?On 2/24/21, 1:55 PM, "Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan" >> wrote: >> >> ???????? Dear JLC, >> >> ???????? Thank you for this link. I should acknowledge that long time >> ago, it was Rajam who pointed out this type of usage in Classical >> Tamil to me. It should also be noted that some commentators call this >> technique by the term 've?ippa?ai'. This is how Tamil Lexicon explains >> the term, "(Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the meaning of an >> ambiguous word is made clear by the use of a qualifying word, as p?y?- >> v??kai; ????????? ?????????? ?????? ??? ???????? ??????????????????? ???????? ??? >> ?????????? ?????? ??????. (?????. 17, ???.)" It should be noted that by >> this definition, even affirmatively explaining a homonym is called >> 've?ippa?ai'.? Indeed, the example cited by the Tamil Lexicon is one >> such usage in Pu?am 17.13, i.e., 'a?u poruna' making clear that by >> 'poruna' the warrior-king is indicated and not a bard. The >> commentators also use this term in regards to 'p?v? va?ci (Pu?am >> 32.2), u??a n??cil (Pu?am 139.8), and ur?ak kutirai (Pu?am 168.14). >> However, one can see that most of the examples use NAP in these usages. >> >> ???????? That is why I was surprised that commentators like >> V??ka?ac?mi N????r missed the significance of the expression 'e??ap >> p??a?'. >> >> ???????? Regards, >> ???????? Palaniappan >> >> >> ???????? ?On 2/22/21, 2:53 AM, "Jean-Luc Chevillard" >> wrote: >> >> ???????????? For a recent discussion (in Tamil) of the topic in a >> Tamil mailing list, >> ???????????? see: >> >> >> https://groups.google.com/g/tamilmanram/c/4HshwozaY-E/m/5KqqmnRNAgAJ >> >> >> ???????????? 1. ?????? ?????????? (????????) >> ???????????? 2. ??????? ??????? (?????????) >> ???????????? 3. ?????? ????? (????????) >> ???????????? 4. ?????? ?????? (?????????) >> ???????????? 5. ???? ???? (????????) >> ???????????? 6. ??????? ??????? (?????????????) >> ???????????? 7. ????? ????????? (???????? ?????? ?????) >> ???????????? 8. ????? ????? ????? (???????? ?????? ????) >> >> >> ???????????? -- Jean-Luc Chevvillard >> >> >> ???????????? https://twitter.com/JLC1956 >> >> >> ???????????? On 22/02/2021 09:31, SUDALAIMUTHU PALANIAPPAN via >> INDOLOGY wrote: >> ???????????? > Dear Herman, >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > Thank you for your comment. Earlier I have discussed in >> Indology, why >> ???????????? > the popular interpretation of ?pa?pp??? as ?brahmin? in >> all occurrences >> ???????????? > should be set aside in favor of treating it as meaning >> ?a priest? in >> ???????????? > general, who could be either brahmin or non-brahmin. (I >> have discussed >> ???????????? > the reading v???rp pa?pp?? in Aka. 24 earlier in >> Indology.) >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > Coming to other occurrences, there are many instances >> where a homonym is >> ???????????? > used in an expression following a verb used as a >> negative adjectival >> ???????????? > participle (NAP). The verb used in the expression >> cannot be used with >> ???????????? > the intended subject and thereby indicates the other >> unique meaning. >> ???????????? > Here are some examples. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > /tuvv? na?avu/ - (Pati. 60.12) >> ???????????? > Here /na?avu/? can mean toddy as well as a city in the >> C?ra domain. The >> ???????????? > NAP 'non-eaten/non-consumed? is used to indicate the city. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > /v??? va??i /- (Peru. 370) >> ???????????? > Here /va??i/ can mean either a creeper or a type of >> dance. The NAP >> ???????????? > 'non-withering' is used to indicate the dance. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > /v??? m?lai / (Pu?. 364.1) >> ???????????? > Here /m?lai /can mean either a garland or necklace. The >> NAP v??? >> ???????????? > ?non-withering? is used to indicate a necklace. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > /eyy? varivil/? (Aka. 192.4) >> ???????????? > Here /varivil/ can mean either a bow with lines (of >> material tied around >> ???????????? > the bending material) or a rainbow with lines and >> ?/ey/? means ?to >> ???????????? > discharge an arrow?. The NAP 'non-arrow-discharging? is >> used to indicate >> ???????????? > the rainbow. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > The multiple objects indicated by the homonym can >> sometimes be linked by >> ???????????? > an obvious etymological connection and sometimes not. >> They can also be >> ???????????? > connected by metonymy. When multiple subjects indicated >> by the homonym >> ???????????? > can use the same verb we need to look at other >> contextual information >> ???????????? > provided. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > Tolk?ppiyam Collatik?ram Ki?aviy?kkam (/n??p?/s 50-54 >> or 52-55 or 52-56 >> ???????????? > according to different commentators) deals with this >> use of homonyms. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > In the case of por?ap porunar and e??ap p??a?, we are >> not dealing with >> ???????????? > disparate things like toddy versus city or creeper >> versus dance. >> ???????????? > Moreover, as I have discussed earlier in Indology >> ???????????? > >> (https://list.indology.info/empathy/thread/F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA?hash=F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA#F2E2TBAGDGGHNC45MKHVVLBO64ZOYEDA >> >> ???????????? > >> ), >> >> ???????????? > the same word ma??ar is used to describe both the bards >> and warriors. >> ???????????? > So, in these cases, we are talking about different >> subsets of a single >> ???????????? > community that perform different functions and the >> poets use the same >> ???????????? > general technique we described above to uniquely >> identify the subset. >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > Regards, >> ???????????? > Palaniappan >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? >> On Jan 24, 2021, at 5:32 AM, Tieken, H.J.H. >> ???????????? >> > ???????????? >> > wrote: >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> Dear Palaniappan, >> ???????????? >> One more remark on the/v?l??p p?rppa?/ and the other >> examples >> ???????????? >> given mentione by you. From these constructions it >> would appear that >> ???????????? >> the terms/p?rppa?/,/porunar/ and///p??a?/refer to >> something like a >> ???????????? >> (sub)caste called/p?r?ppa?/ etc, whose members are not >> restricted to >> ???????????? >> brahmins performing sacrificial duties. However, >> before being able to >> ???????????? >> say something more in this line we have to have more >> examples of this >> ???????????? >> type of compound. >> ???????????? >> Herman >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> Herman Tieken >> ???????????? >> Stationsweg 58 >> ???????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> ???????????? >> The Netherlands >> ???????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> ???????????? >> website:hermantieken.com >> ???????????? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ???????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > ???????????? >> > namens >> Tieken, H.J.H. >> ???????????? >> via INDOLOGY > ???????????? >> > >> ???????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 09:34:26 >> ???????????? >> *Aan:*Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan; indology >> ???????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical >> Tamil Poems >> ???????????? >> Dear Palaniappan, >> ???????????? >> I think your interpretation of/e?? p??a?/ is correct, >> as is that >> ???????????? >> of/por?a porunar./I like to add another instance of >> this type of >> ???????????? >> compound (about this, more below), from AN 24:/v?l??p >> p?rppa?/ Wilden's >> ???????????? >> (ad hoc) interpretation of this compound runs as >> follows: we would >> ???????????? >> have to do with a non-sacrificing brahmin (/p?rppa?/) >> making a living >> ???????????? >> by, in this case, cutting bangles, when he is unable >> to do so by >> ???????????? >> officiating at sacrifices. Also here, your >> interpretation applies: we >> ???????????? >> have to do with a craftsman referred by the same name >> as a brahmin >> ???????????? >> priest. The craftsman is distinguished from the latter >> by/v?l??/. >> ???????????? >> I have dealt with the passage in "Translating Tamil >> Ca?kam Poetry: >> ???????????? >> Taking Stock" (OLZ 118 (4-5) (2020), pp. 287-303, esp. >> p. 294-5 and >> ???????????? >> ftn 60) (By contract I am not allowed to place a pdf >> link on my website) >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> As to the type of compound, I do not have the article >> at hand, but I >> ???????????? >> think it is precisely the one dealt with by Leendert >> van Daalen in "A >> ???????????? >> Note on/vidh?ma/ or/sadh?ma/ /iva p?vaka/ >> at/R?m?ya?a/...." in IT 7 >> ???????????? >> (1979), 171-189. >> ???????????? >> With kind regards >> ???????????? >> Herman >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> Herman Tieken >> ???????????? >> Stationsweg 58 >> ???????????? >> 2515 BP Den Haag >> ???????????? >> The Netherlands >> ???????????? >> 00 31 (0)70 2208127 >> ???????????? >> website:hermantieken.com >> ???????????? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> ???????????? >> *Van:*INDOLOGY > ???????????? >> > namens >> Sudalaimuthu >> ???????????? >> Palaniappan via INDOLOGY > ???????????? >> > >> ???????????? >> *Verzonden:*zondag 24 januari 2021 02:08:14 >> ???????????? >> *Aan:*Indology List >> ???????????? >> *Onderwerp:*Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical >> Tamil Poems >> ???????????? >> I am reposting after correcting some typos. >> ???????????? >> I recently came across Auvai Turaic?mip Pi??ai?s >> interpretation of >> ???????????? >> some key details of Akam 113, and Akam 226. He makes >> these comments in >> ???????????? >> his introduction to the decad called P??a? Pattu of >> his commentary on >> ???????????? >> Ai?ku?un??u (1958: 1028-29). (See attachment.) I do >> not know if he has >> ???????????? >> provided detailed commentaries for the two poems. >> ???????????? >> With respect to Akam 113, Pillai says that the ruler >> P??a? belonged to >> ???????????? >> a section of the bardic community of the P??ar that >> did not engage in >> ???????????? >> music and dance but excelled in wrestling and ruling >> the land. He >> ???????????? >> refers to Perump??app??i, etc., which we had discussed >> earlier in the >> ???????????? >> thread. Pillai adds that the descendants of that P???? >> were later >> ???????????? >> called? V??ar, V???tir?yar, V??ataraiyar, and >> V??ak?varaiyar. Pillai?s >> ???????????? >> interpretation has been accepted by many later >> scholars such as Ve. >> ???????????? >> Varatar?can (1973: 15) and Ir?. I?a?kumara? (1987: >> 141). This confirms >> ???????????? >> my interpretation of/e??a/in Akam 113.17 as 'not >> making music?. (For >> ???????????? >> the affirmative use of/e??i/in the sense of music >> making, see >> ???????????? >> Pati??uppattu 29.7-8.) >> ???????????? >> In this context, it should be noted that the critical >> edition of >> ???????????? >> Akan????u by Eva Wilden (2018) interprets the text >> ?/e??[a]p p??a?/? >> ???????????? >> as ?the bard who does not rise?. In my view, Wilden >> got only half of >> ???????????? >> it right. She is right to translate/p??a?/as ?the >> bard?. But, Wilden >> ???????????? >> has interpreted/e??/as deriving from DEDR 851/e?u/- >> 'to rise'. It >> ???????????? >> should be related to DEDR 5156/y??, ???/, stringed >> musical instrument; >> ???????????? >> e?u- 'to emit sound?? The correct interpretation is >> ?the bard who does >> ???????????? >> not play the lute/make music?. This usage is the >> converse of/'por?ap >> ???????????? >> porunar/' in Pu?am 386.19, where 'non-fighting >> warriors? is used to >> ???????????? >> refer to bards, where both the bards and warriors can >> be denoted by >> ???????????? >> the word ?porunar?. >> ???????????? >> One may argue that the fact Akam 113 uses ?/e??[a]? to >> describe >> ???????????? >> ?P??a?/? may simply indicate the homophonous nature of >> the name of the >> ???????????? >> ruler ?/P??a?/? and the word for the bard, >> ?/p??a?,?/and not >> ???????????? >> necessarily show that the ruler was of bardic >> origin/./ But, we know >> ???????????? >> that the bards had received villages as gifts from >> Pu?am 302. But, >> ???????????? >> with respect to bards receiving a bigger territory, we >> have that >> ???????????? >> possibility supported by Ci?up?????uppa?ai 109 >> according to which the >> ???????????? >> chief ?ri? gave ?the good country with small hills to >> K??iyar?. Pillai >> ???????????? >> (1958: 1030) states that depending on what they did, >> P??ar were known >> ???????????? >> by several names such as P??ar, Akavunar, K?ttar, >> K??iyar, Iyavar, and >> ???????????? >> Porunar. In a similar manner, the P??ar could have >> received some >> ???????????? >> territory in the northern border area of the Tamil >> region, which could >> ???????????? >> have become the base of the P??ar, who later became >> the B??as. >> ???????????? >> As for the bards becoming warriors, it is not >> impossible for one to >> ???????????? >> have both skills. In the famous Tanjavur temple >> inscription South >> ???????????? >> Indian Inscriptions, vol 2, no.66, there are several >> members of the >> ???????????? >> crack troops of ??jar?ja I (Terinta Vala?kai >> V??aikk?rar, Terinta >> ???????????? >> Parikk?rar) who have been given grants as musicians >> (pp.299-300). >> ???????????? >> The dynastic drift of the B??as from the northern >> Tamil border area >> ???????????? >> into Telugu or Kannada regions is nothing unusual. As >> I already noted >> ???????????? >> in an earlier post, a branch of C??as settled in the >> Cudappah district >> ???????????? >> of the Telugu region in the 7^th century can be seen >> to drift all the >> ???????????? >> way to Sonepur in South Kosala (Orissa) in the 12^th >> century Mahad? >> ???????????? >> plates of Somesvaradevavarman. >> ???????????? >> In Akam 226, Pillai does not interpret P??a? as an >> ally of Ka??i who >> ???????????? >> fled without fighting in the court of the C??a king >> Titta? Ve?iya?. >> ???????????? >> Rather, it was P??a?, who was in the court of the >> Ch??a king, the >> ???????????? >> intended adversary of Ka??i. Modern scholars like >> V??ka?ac?mi N????r >> ???????????? >> and R. V??ka??calam P?llai (1946: 454) unnecessarily >> add a word >> ???????????? >> ?/k??i/? meaning ?having joined? to ?/P??a?o?u/? to >> come up with the >> ???????????? >> misinterpreted meaning. The verb ?/poru/? ?to fight? >> is preceded by >> ???????????? >> the adversary being fought/intended to be fought by >> the subject of the >> ???????????? >> verb with the case marker ?/o?u/'. Perhaps N????r was >> influenced by >> ???????????? >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r (1923: 1670), who interpreted P??a? >> as an ally of >> ???????????? >> Ka??i in his earlier edition. Hart (2015: 232) has >> followed N?tt?r?s >> ???????????? >> interpretation. >> ???????????? >> George L. Hart, 2015. The Four Hundred Songs of >> Love.Institut Fran?ais >> ???????????? >> De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> ???????????? >> Ir?. I?a?kumara?, 1987. P??ar. Ma?iv?cakar Patippakam, >> Citamparam. >> ???????????? >> R?. Ir?kavaiya?k?r, 1923. E??uttokaiyu? Ne?untokai >> ?kum Akan????u >> ???????????? >> Mulamum Uraiyum. V?. Ir?jak?p?laiya?k?r Patippu, >> Mayil?pp?r. >> ???????????? >> Na. Mu. V??ka?ac?mi N????r and R. V??ka??calam P?llai, >> 1946. >> ???????????? >> E??uttokaiyil O????a Akan????u Ma?imi?ai P?va?am. >> Tirunelv?li, >> ???????????? >> Tennintiya Caiva Citt??ta Nu?patippuk Ka?akam, Ce??ai. >> ???????????? >> Auvai Turaic?mip Pillai, 1958. E??uttokaiyil O???kiya >> Ai?ku?un??u >> ???????????? >> Mulamum Vi?akkavuraiyum. Part III. Mullai. A???malaip >> palkalaik >> ???????????? >> ka?akatt?r?l ve?iyi?appe??atu. >> ???????????? >> Ve. Varatar?ca?, 1973. Tami?pp??ar V??vum Varal??um. >> P???a? >> ???????????? >> Patippakam, Ce??ai. >> ???????????? >> Eva Wilden, 2018.? A Critical Edition and an Annotated >> Translation of >> ???????????? >> the Akan????u, 3 volumes.?cole Fran?aise >> D?Extr?me-Orient and Institut >> ???????????? >> Fran?ais De Pondich?ry, Pondicherry. >> ???????????? >> Regards, >> ???????????? >> Palaniappan >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???? On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:13 PM,palaniappa at aol.com >> ???????????? >>???? wrote: >> ???????????? >>???? Dear George, >> ???????????? >>???? I appreciate your comments. >> ???????????? >>???? As for the fonts, I like to use the diacritic >> fonts too whenever >> ???????????? >>???? possible. In my first post, I did use the >> diacritic fonts. But, >> ???????????? >>???? when Dr. Tieken replied to my post the diacritic >> fonts in my >> ???????????? >>???? earlier post showed up as question marks in my >> Mac. Since there >> ???????????? >>???? were not too many participants in the thread, to >> be safe, I >> ???????????? >>???? resorted to the transliteration I used. >> ???????????? >>???? Thanks >> ???????????? >>???? Regards, >> ???????????? >>???? Palaniappan >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???? -----Original Message----- >> ???????????? >>???? From: George Hart > > >> ???????????? >>???? To: INDOLOGY > ???????????? >>???? > >> ???????????? >>???? Sent: Mon, Oct 22, 2012 3:53 pm >> ???????????? >>???? Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] On the Date of Classical >> Tamil Poems >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???? Dear Palaniappan, >> ???????????? >>???? I think you have made a good case for P??a? and >> B??a, and >> ???????????? >>???? especially like the perump??a? / b?hadb??a, as >> even the >> ???????????? >>???? alliteration works.? I hope you publish this, as >> it is >> ???????????? >>???? significant, I think.? I am still not convinced by >> what you say >> ???????????? >>???? about p??ar in the Ku?untokai poem -- after >> reading many Sangam >> ???????????? >>???? poems and working through much of the Akananuru, your >> ???????????? >>???? interpretation just doesn't sound right to me.? Of >> course, that >> ???????????? >>???? doesn't mean you aren't correct, but there's >> really no way to >> ???????????? >>???? tell.? If the P??ar were standing to one side (or, >> more likely, in >> ???????????? >>???? the middle of one side playing their drums), and a >> battle started, >> ???????????? >>???? they'd still be looking in front and behind them >> to avoid being >> ???????????? >>???? killed.? Thanks for an intriguing and informative >> analysis. >> ???????????? >>???? One remark: Why not use roman unicode, as it's >> very hard to read >> ???????????? >>???? the transliteration that eschews diacritic marks. >> I believe every >> ???????????? >>???? OS and email program is capable of handling 8-bit >> unicode. >> ???????????? >>???? George >> ???????????? >>???? On Oct 21, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan >> ???????????? >>???? > >> wrote: >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? Dear George, >> ???????????? >>???????? Please see the attached inscription. What can >> one say about >> ???????????? >>???????? the perumpANan here? Is he a pANan2 or bANan2? >> Which comes >> ???????????? >>???????? first - perumpANan2 or bRhad-bANa? The >> modifier 'peru' is >> ???????????? >>???????? found in other names such as perumuttaraiyar >> (mentioned in >> ???????????? >>???????? nAlaTiyAr), ko-p-peru?-cOzan2, peru?-cEral, >> etc. The title >> ???????????? >>???????? peru- is very common in Tamil. It was also >> used in connection >> ???????????? >>???????? with different professions as in perumpANan2 >> and perunAvican2. >> ???????????? >>???????? Then how about the title bRhad in bRhadbANa? >> ???????????? >>???????? First of all, the title bRhad-bANa for a >> dynasty is very >> ???????????? >>???????? unusual. The only other so-called dynastic >> title I know of, >> ???????????? >>???????? bRhatphAlAyana, is not a dynastic title at >> all. In fact, in >> ???????????? >>???????? the case of bRhatphAlAyanas and sAlankAyanas, >> according to K. >> ???????????? >>???????? A. Nilakanta Sastri, the scholars have simply >> used the gotra >> ???????????? >>???????? names in the absence of dynastic names. >> (Early History of the >> ???????????? >>???????? Andhra Country, p.151, n.1). Moreover, it is >> only in the >> ???????????? >>???????? tALagunda inscription we find the occurrence >> of 'bRhad-bANa'. >> ???????????? >>???????? Everywhere else in non-Tamil inscriptions, the >> members of the >> ???????????? >>???????? dynasty are called bANarAja, bANAdhirAja-. In >> other words we >> ???????????? >>???????? only find bANa- but not bRhad-bANa. But in >> Tamil we find many >> ???????????? >>???????? instances of perumpANaraicar, permpANan, etc. >> ???????????? >>???????? This leads one to infer that the author of the >> tALagunda >> ???????????? >>???????? inscription was simply translating the name >> perumpANan2 into >> ???????????? >>???????? Sanskrit. Since in Tamil -p- following nasal >> -m- is pronounced >> ???????????? >>???????? as -b-, the author of tALagunda has rendered >> the first >> ???????????? >>???????? component as bRhad and kept the second part as >> bANa. This >> ???????????? >>???????? suggests that the original form of the >> dynastic name should >> ???????????? >>???????? have been Ta. pANan2. It is also possible that >> in the Kannada >> ???????????? >>???????? and Telugu areas 'pANa-' was being pronounced >> as 'bANa' either >> ???????????? >>???????? independently or influenced by the >> pronunciation of '- pANan2' >> ???????????? >>???????? in perumpANan2 as '-bANan2' .? Once the >> stand-alone form >> ???????????? >>???????? 'bANa' becomes widespread, a re-branding using >> a Sanskrit >> ???????????? >>???????? mythological pedigree tracing the lineage to >> mahAbali, father >> ???????????? >>???????? of bANAsura is carried out with the dynastic >> title as 'bANa'. >> ???????????? >>???????? Later when this form 'bANa' is imported back >> into Tamil, Skt. >> ???????????? >>???????? bANa > Ta. vANa-. >> ???????????? >>???????? In the book "ceGkam naTukaRkaL" inscription >> no. 1971/54 of the >> ???????????? >>???????? 2nd year of Narasimhavarman II mentions a >> vANakO atiraicar. In >> ???????????? >>???????? the same collection, no. 1971/73 of the 10th >> year of the same >> ???????????? >>???????? king mentions a perumpANatiyaraicar. >> ???????????? >>???????? The phrase "ezAap pANan2" further points to >> the homophon >> ???????????? >>???????? indicating bard as well as the chieftain >> suggesting in this >> ???????????? >>???????? case that the chieftain was called 'pANan2' >> too with >> ???????????? >>???????? word-initial p-. >> ???????????? >>???????? As for the domicile and area controlled by the >> pANan2/bANa >> ???????????? >>???????? chiefs, it has varied historically. They might >> have started >> ???????????? >>???????? near Gingee where the paRaiyan2paTTu >> inscription is found >> ???????????? >>???????? mentioning 'pANAtu'. (At least one variant of >> akam.155 >> ???????????? >>???????? mentions pANATu. See Early Tamil Epigraphy, p. >> 629 for a >> ???????????? >>???????? discussion of this.) Then they could have >> moved north so that >> ???????????? >>???????? by the 4th century they are found near >> zrIparvata hill. After >> ???????????? >>???????? serving the Chalukya, Pallava, and Chola >> dynasties, in the >> ???????????? >>???????? 13th century, we see bANa chieftains with >> titles such as >> ???????????? >>???????? mAvali vANAdirAyan, mAbali vANarAyar, etc., >> controlling parts >> ???????????? >>???????? of the pANTiya country under the pANTiyas. As >> a parallel case, >> ???????????? >>???????? it should be noted that a branch of the >> Cholas, Telugu Cholas, >> ???????????? >>????????? were controlling areas around Sonepur in >> Orissa in the 12th >> ???????????? >>???????? century issuing inscriptions in Sanskrit >> tracing their descent >> ???????????? >>???????? to Chola karikAla and uRaiyUr (EI 28, p. 286) >> progressively >> ???????????? >>???????? moving northeast from the area to the north of >> the Tamil >> ???????????? >>???????? country over several centuries. >> ???????????? >>???????? In my opinion, the pANan2 mentioned in Akam >> 113 and 226 >> ???????????? >>???????? referred to one or more members of the same >> lineage later >> ???????????? >>???????? called the bANas. >> ???????????? >>???????? kaTTi mentioned in akam 226 is also mentioned >> in akam 44 as >> ???????????? >>???????? well as kuRuntokai 11. See below. >> ???????????? >>???????? /tun2 arum kaTum tiRal kaGkan2 kaTTi (akam. >> 44.8)/ >> ???????????? >>???????? /pal vEl kaTTi nal nATTu umpar/ >> ???????????? >>???????? /mozipeyar tEettar Ayin2um/(kuRu. 11.7-8) >> ???????????? >>???????? We should take the dynatic names mentioned >> here as individuals >> ???????????? >>???????? belonging the dynasty being mentioned. Like >> the bAnas, these >> ???????????? >>???????? dynasties were also in the northern border of >> the Tamil >> ???????????? >>???????? country. 'kaGkan' referred to the Western >> Ganga dynasty. >> ???????????? >>???????? Vicciyar were also in the northern area. So it >> is not >> ???????????? >>???????? surprising that pANar allied themselves with >> vicci or kaTTi. >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? The use of the plural form pANar in kuRu. 328 >> is of the same >> ???????????? >>???????? nature as in akam. 336 below. >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /mAri ampin2 mazai tOl cOzar/ >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /vil INTu kuRumpin2 vallattup puRa miLai/ >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /Ariyar paTaiyin2 uTaika en2/ >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /nEr iRai mun2kai vIgkiya vaLaiy/E (akam. >> 336.20-23) >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? Here 'cOzar' (in plural) could refer to the >> cOza fighters. >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? Similarly, you can see 'cOzar' used below >> referring to the >> ???????????? >>???????? cOza fighters >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /koRRac cOzar kogkarp paNIiyar/ >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /veNkOTTu yAn2aip pOor kizavOn2/ >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? /pazaiyan2 vEl vAyttan2n2a nin2/(naR. 10.6-8) >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? So in kuRu. 328, pANar (bANa) forces would >> have joined the >> ???????????? >>???????? battle on the side of the vicciyar who might >> be led by their >> ???????????? >>???????? chief, 'perumakan2'. It is possible the pANan2 >> chief might >> ???????????? >>???????? have sent his forces without joining them. >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? As for non-fighters standing between the two >> armies, I >> ???????????? >>???????? consider it highly unlikely they were standing >> in between the >> ???????????? >>???????? fighting armies. They have to be really >> standing on the side >> ???????????? >>???????? while the battle is raging and in that case >> they will only >> ???????????? >>???????? move their gaze from side to side and not >> front and back. So I >> ???????????? >>???????? do not think simhAvalokanyAya will be valid >> here. At least if >> ???????????? >>???????? the description applies to the fighters, then >> their behavior >> ???????????? >>???????? will parallel the warriors whether it is their >> fierce look or >> ???????????? >>???????? looking forward and backward, So, the looking >> persons should >> ???????????? >>???????? be fighters and not bards. >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? Regards, >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? Palaniappan >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >>???????? >> ???????????? >> >> ???????????? >> _______________________________________________ >> INDOLOGY mailing >> ???????????? >> listINDOLOGY at list.indology.info >> ???????????? >> >> indology-owner at list.indology.info >> ???????????? >> (messages to >> the list's >> ???????????? >> managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info >> ???????????? >> (where you can change >> your list >> ???????????? >> options or unsubscribe) >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? > _______________________________________________ >> ???????????? > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> ???????????? > To unsubscribe send an email to >> indology-leave at list.indology.info >> ???????????? > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the >> list's managing committee) >> ???????????? > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change >> your list options or unsubscribe) >> ???????????? > >> ???????????? _______________________________________________ >> ???????????? INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info >> ???????????? To unsubscribe send an email to >> indology-leave at list.indology.info >> ???????????? indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's >> managing committee) >> ???????????? http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your >> list options or unsubscribe) >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de Thu Feb 25 10:03:44 2021 From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 21 11:03:44 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Advertisement: full-time position of exhibition curator for 5 years in Bonn In-Reply-To: <8efda755-d3e3-43bb-e037-dbc4de87d013@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7989C465-1474-4FCC-88A3-79BDD9F8CAE6@uni-bonn.de> Dear Colleagues and friends, please find attached the advertisement for an exhibition curator for 5 years in the Cluster of Excellence in Bonn. It is a full-time position and the material to be curated comes from a variety of regions, but also from South Asia. There are specialists for the individual collections present in Bonn. Thank you for circulating the announcement. All best wishes, Julia. Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald Professor of Oriental Art History Head of Department University of Bonn Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA) Department of Asian and Islamic Art History Adenauerallee 10 53113 Bonn Germany Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de www.aik.uni-bonn.de Tel. 0049-228-73 7213 Fax. 0049-228-73 4042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CfA-curatorialcoordinatorBCDSS.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 478763 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ausschreibung_Ausstellungskurator_in.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 587039 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de Fri Feb 26 08:55:23 2021 From: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de (Julia Hegewald) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 21 09:55:23 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] 5 PhD positions at BCDSS in Bonn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear colleagues and friends, I would like to inform you that Bonn Center for Dependency and Slavery Studies (BCDSS) invites applications for five PhD positions. The call for applications is attached to this mail. You are welcome to circulate the announcement further through your own networks. With kind regards, Julia Hegewald. Prof. Dr. Julia A. B. Hegewald Professor of Oriental Art History Head of Department University of Bonn Institute of Oriental and Asian Studies (IOA) Department of Asian and Islamic Art History Adenauerallee 10 53113 Bonn Germany Email: julia.hegewald at uni-bonn.de www.aik.uni-bonn.de Tel. 0049-228-73 7213 Fax. 0049-228-73 4042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: CfA-PhDpositionsatBCDSS.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 485245 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aparpola at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 11:17:47 2021 From: aparpola at gmail.com (Asko Parpola) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 21 13:17:47 +0200 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Central Institute of Indian Languages (CIIL) Message-ID: <527A7743-37A1-4036-A27D-6BFBF6C5B7B4@gmail.com> The last issue of DLA [Dravidian Linguistic Association] News contains a copy of a letter sent to the Government of India by D. P. Pattanayak, the first Director of the Central Institute of Indian Languages (CIIL) in Mysore. CIIL has published a number of good introductions to Indian languages and other useful publications, but its fate seems sad. With best wishes, Asko Parpola Pattanayak, Debi Prasanna, 2020-12-15 Letter to the Government of India, published in DLA News 45 (1), Jan. 2021 p. 3: Date: 15-XII-2020 Sub.: Converting the CIIL into BBV and downgrading Qualitative Language Education by downgrading Linguistics. Ref.: LD/MoE/GoI No. N. 7-6/2017?LCC(Pt.I), dt. 27-12-2020 and LD/MHRD/GoI F. No. 8-14/2019/L-II, dt. 18-02-2019 Dear Madam/Sir: I am shocked to hear that the Govt. of India has set up a committee to work out the details of the transformation of the Central* Institute of Indian Languages (henceforth, CIIL), Mysuru from the Govt. of India office to a Central University. The Central Institute of English & Foreign Languages, the Kendriya Hindi Sansthan and the Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan becoming a University is different from the CIIL, subordinate office of the Govt. of India becoming a University. The CIIL was established when the Govt. of India had no language department to work on language policy and planning and to monitor implementation of language programs of the Center and the States. It was visualised to act as a bridge between the Center and the States, Universities are autonomous bodies. No University can be a substitute of the CIIL. Although the CIIL was a department of MHRD (now under Ministry of Education), the faculty was given the UGC scales after re-designating the positions as Deputy Director-cum-Professor, Senior Research Officer-cum- Reader and Junior Research Officer-cum-Lecturer. This way, the CIIL faculty could interact with the University faculty and update themselves while interacting with the State Govt. Officials. The Director was a member of the CABE as well as member of Boards of Governors of the Central Language Institutes and acting as the Advisor of the Govt. of India. Unfortunately, the present day bureaucracy is in no position to convince the political leadership about the importance of the activities of the CIIL. That it is the fountain head of resources about language use in domains like education, administration and mass communication. It not only helped solving language problems of States but worked towards sustaining India?s status as a single language, linguistic and cultural area. Another unfortunate part is the fact that most of the members of the constituted committee are Sanskritist, and there is not a single reputed linguist among them having high academic credibility in linguistics. This reminds me the fact that the last two Directors of the CIIL are non-linguists. During the time of the last Director, the recruitment rules of the post of Director was revised so that a linguist can never be selected as Director. If my information is correct then the UPSC experts for the interview of the Director held in the 4rth December 2020 were all Sanskritists and former bureaucrats and there was not a linguist having high academic integrity among them. This is a shame to all the linguists of the country. I have already written before that the CIIL without a linguist as a Director is like Indian Institute of Science (IISc, Bengaluru) heading a Social Scientist as a Director. I strongly suggest that all the linguists bring this to the attention of the Hon?ble Prime Minister and the Minister and Secretary of Higher Education, Govt. of India. It is the duty and responsibility of every linguist, social scientist, and language scholar in the country to ensure restoration of the CIIL and save linguistics. Debi Prasanna Pattanayak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nagarajpaturi at gmail.com Fri Feb 26 14:16:53 2021 From: nagarajpaturi at gmail.com (Nagaraj Paturi) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 21 19:46:53 +0530 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Central Institute of Indian Languages (CIIL) In-Reply-To: <527A7743-37A1-4036-A27D-6BFBF6C5B7B4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Related news : https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/mysore-language-school-to-get-central-varsity-tag/cid/1799201 https://www.deccanherald.com/state/karnataka-districts/conversion-of-ciil-into-varsity-creates-anxiety-in-cesck-932622.html On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 4:48 PM Asko Parpola wrote: > The last issue of DLA [Dravidian Linguistic Association] News contains a > copy of a letter sent to the Government of India by D. P. Pattanayak, the > first Director of the Central Institute of Indian Languages (CIIL) in > Mysore. CIIL has published a number of good introductions to Indian > languages and other useful publications, but its fate seems sad. > > With best wishes, Asko Parpola > > > Pattanayak, Debi Prasanna, 2020-12-15 Letter to the Government of India, > published in DLA News 45 (1), Jan. 2021 p. 3: > Date: 15-XII-2020 Sub.: Converting the CIIL into BBV and downgrading > Qualitative Language Education by downgrading Linguistics. Ref.: > LD/MoE/GoI No. N. 7-6/2017?LCC(Pt.I), dt. 27-12-2020 and LD/MHRD/GoI F. No. > 8-14/2019/L-II, dt. 18-02-2019 Dear Madam/Sir: I am shocked to hear > that the Govt. of India has set up a committee to work out the details of > the transformation of the Central* Institute of Indian Languages > (henceforth, CIIL), Mysuru from the Govt. of India office to a Central > University. The Central Institute of English & Foreign Languages, the > Kendriya Hindi Sansthan and the Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan becoming a > University is different from the CIIL, subordinate office of the Govt. of > India becoming a University. The CIIL was established when the Govt. of > India had no language department to work on language policy and planning > and to monitor implementation of language programs of the Center and the > States. It was visualised to act as a bridge between the Center and the > States, Universities are autonomous bodies. No University can be a > substitute of the CIIL. Although the CIIL was a department of MHRD (now > under Ministry of Education), the faculty was given the UGC scales after > re-designating the positions as Deputy Director-cum-Professor, Senior > Research Officer-cum- Reader and Junior Research Officer-cum-Lecturer. This > way, the CIIL faculty could interact with the University faculty and update > themselves while interacting with the State Govt. Officials. The Director > was a member of the CABE as well as member of Boards of Governors of the > Central Language Institutes and acting as the Advisor of the Govt. of > India. Unfortunately, the present day bureaucracy is in no position to > convince the political leadership about the importance of the activities of > the CIIL. That it is the fountain head of resources about language use in > domains like education, administration and mass communication. It not only > helped solving language problems of States but worked towards sustaining > India?s status as a single language, linguistic and cultural area. Another > unfortunate part is the fact that most of the members of the constituted > committee are Sanskritist, and there is not a single reputed linguist among > them having high academic credibility in linguistics. This reminds me the > fact that the last two Directors of the CIIL are non-linguists. During the > time of the last Director, the recruitment rules of the post of Director > was revised so that a linguist can never be selected as Director. If my > information is correct then the UPSC experts for the interview of the > Director held in the 4rth December 2020 were all Sanskritists and former > bureaucrats and there was not a linguist having high academic integrity > among them. This is a shame to all the linguists of the country. I have > already written before that the CIIL without a linguist as a Director is > like Indian Institute of Science (IISc, Bengaluru) heading a Social > Scientist as a Director. I strongly suggest that all the linguists bring > this to the attention of the Hon?ble Prime Minister and the Minister and > Secretary of Higher Education, Govt. of India. It is the duty and > responsibility of every linguist, social scientist, and language scholar in > the country to ensure restoration of the CIIL and save linguistics. Debi > Prasanna Pattanayak > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing > committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or > unsubscribe) -- Nagaraj Paturi Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru. Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education, Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vasishtha.spier at gmail.com Sat Feb 27 04:50:27 2021 From: vasishtha.spier at gmail.com (Harry Spier) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 21 23:50:27 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Problems with new Indology archives Message-ID: Dear list members, When I search the new Indology archives by month I get weird results. For example I've just tried to search the archives for October 2004 sorted by most recent. The results I get are the threads for Oct 2004 only from Oct. 26 to the end of the month. These are preceeded by threads from Feb. 2021 not by earlier threads from Oct. 2004. Harry Spier -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Sat Feb 27 20:57:18 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 21 15:57:18 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Hermes magazine in the 1830s Message-ID: <06dc8b39-bf82-77be-43c9-1ade07ba28fa@sas.upenn.edu> Dear (especially German) Colleagues, Might you know if Christian Lassen published reviews/articles in /Hermes, oder kritisches Jahrbuch der Literatur/ in the 1830s, as A. W. Schlegel suggested he do? WorldCat shows that magazine to be preserved almost exclusively in German libraries, and I have not found digitized copies for the 1830s. With thanks and best wishes, Rosane Rocher // -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de Sat Feb 27 21:32:03 2021 From: pwyzlic at uni-bonn.de (Peter Wyzlic) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 21 22:32:03 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: Hermes magazine in the 1830s In-Reply-To: <06dc8b39-bf82-77be-43c9-1ade07ba28fa@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <20210227223203.198696f2@raspberrypi> Am Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:57:18 -0500 schrieb Rosane Rocher : > ight you know if Christian Lassen published reviews/articles in > /Hermes, oder kritisches Jahrbuch der Literatur/ in the 1830s, as A. > W. Schlegel suggested he do? WorldCat shows that magazine to be > preserved almost exclusively in German libraries, and I have not > found digitized copies for the 1830s. Dear Rosane Rocher, you find the digitzed volumes under: Hope it helps From rrocher at sas.upenn.edu Sun Feb 28 00:06:17 2021 From: rrocher at sas.upenn.edu (Rosane Rocher) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 21 19:06:17 -0500 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Fwd: Hermes magazine in the 1830s In-Reply-To: <06dc8b39-bf82-77be-43c9-1ade07ba28fa@sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: With thanks for Peter Wyzlic's help, I'd like to let the curious know that Hermes regrettably ceased publication at the very same time Schlegel was recommending it to Lassen. Rosane Rocher -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Hermes magazine in the 1830s Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2021 15:57:18 -0500 From: Rosane Rocher To: Indology List Dear (especially German) Colleagues, Might you know if Christian Lassen published reviews/articles in /Hermes, oder kritisches Jahrbuch der Literatur/ in the 1830s, as A. W. Schlegel suggested he do? WorldCat shows that magazine to be preserved almost exclusively in German libraries, and I have not found digitized copies for the 1830s. With thanks and best wishes, Rosane Rocher // -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From walter.slaje at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 09:33:14 2021 From: walter.slaje at gmail.com (Walter Slaje) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 10:33:14 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] [Publication Announcement] A Manual of the Adornment of the Monastic Boundary Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, it gives me pleasure to draw your attention to a recent publication by Petra Kieffer-P?lz: ?A Manual of the Adornment of the Monastic Boundary. V?cissara?s S?m?la?k?rasa?gaha.? For details and orders, see: https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/A_Manual_of_the_Adornment_of_the_Monastic_Boundary/titel_6723.ahtml Series link: *https://www.harrassowitz-verlag.de/reihenwerk_455.ahtml * Kindly regarding, Walter Slaje -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drdhaval2785 at gmail.com Sun Feb 28 11:39:46 2021 From: drdhaval2785 at gmail.com (Dhaval Patel) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 17:09:46 +0530 Subject: =?utf-8?B?W0lORE9MT0dZXSDgpLbgpKzgpY3gpKbgpL7gpLDgpY3gpKPgpLUgb2Yg4KS14KS+4KSa4KS44KWN4KSq4KSk4KS/?= Message-ID: Respected scholars, It is my pleasure to present before you digitization of the following work. ?abd?r?ava of V?caspati. https://github.com/sanskrit-kosha/kosha/blob/master/shabdarnava_vachaspati/orig/shabdarnava.txt This lexicon is not available in full. Its fragments from various dictionaries were gleaned by Mr. Robert Birw? and published in two articles. The present work is digitized version of these articles. 1. Fragments from Three Lost Ko?as : I . V?caspati ' s ?abd?r?ava Robert Birw? Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol . 85, No . 4 ( Oct . - Dec ., 1965), pp . 524-543 (20 pages ) Published By : American Oriental Society https :// doi . org /10.2307/596721 2. Some More Fragments from V?caspati ' s ?abd?r?ava Robert Birw? Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol . 88, No . 2 ( Apr . - Jun ., 1968), pp . 345-347 (3 pages ) Published by : American Oriental Society https :// doi . org /10.2307/597210 Credits - 1. Mr. Robert Birw? for finding out the quotations of this lost lexicon and presenting them before scholarly community in a compact form. 2. Mr. Nagabhushana Rao of www.andhrabharati.com for providing the scans of the articles. -- Dr. Dhaval Patel, I.A.S Collector and District Magistrate, Surat www.sanskritworld.in -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr Sun Feb 21 08:32:04 2021 From: francois.patte at mi.parisdescartes.fr (=?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Patte?=) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 21 08:32:04 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] who are they? Message-ID: <2b4aba59-7975-7a0f-f2b8-a77547b33615@mi.parisdescartes.fr> Bonjour, A friend of mine has two indian statues and want to know who are the represented persons. I have personnaly no ideas... Does someone can recognise them and give some clue? Thank you. http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0610.JPG http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0615.JPG -- Fran?ois Patte UFR de math?matiques et informatique Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 Universit? Paris Descartes 45, rue des Saints P?res F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte FSF https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 203 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mkapstei at uchicago.edu Sun Feb 28 15:05:54 2021 From: mkapstei at uchicago.edu (Matthew Kapstein) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 15:05:54 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? In-Reply-To: <2b4aba59-7975-7a0f-f2b8-a77547b33615@mi.parisdescartes.fr> Message-ID: The first is the Buddha Vajrasattva. The second not sure. Matthew Kapstein Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: Fran?ois Patte Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 9:31:49 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] who are they? Bonjour, A friend of mine has two indian statues and want to know who are the represented persons. I have personnaly no ideas... Does someone can recognise them and give some clue? Thank you. http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0610.JPG http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0615.JPG -- Fran?ois Patte UFR de math?matiques et informatique Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 Universit? Paris Descartes 45, rue des Saints P?res F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte FSF https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From desimonedaniela at yahoo.it Sun Feb 28 15:35:57 2021 From: desimonedaniela at yahoo.it (Daniela De Simone) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 15:35:57 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <176889104.1141832.1614526557657@mail.yahoo.com> The other one is Bhairava. Daniela De Simone? South Asianist | Archaeologist | Museum Curator Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone On Sunday, February 28, 2021, 3:05 pm, Matthew Kapstein wrote: The first is the Buddha Vajrasattva. The second not sure.? Matthew Kapstein? Get Outlook for iOSFrom: Fran?ois Patte Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 9:31:49 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] who are they??Bonjour, A friend of mine has two indian statues and want to know who are the represented persons. I have personnaly no ideas... Does someone can recognise them and give some clue? Thank you. http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0610.JPG http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0615.JPG -- Fran?ois Patte UFR de math?matiques et informatique Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 Universit? Paris Descartes 45, rue des Saints P?res F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte FSF https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf _______________________________________________ INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From parlinito at hotmail.com Sun Feb 28 17:12:44 2021 From: parlinito at hotmail.com (Saran Suebsantiwongse) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 17:12:44 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? In-Reply-To: <2b4aba59-7975-7a0f-f2b8-a77547b33615@mi.parisdescartes.fr> Message-ID: Bonjour, The stone stele is Vajrasattva, Pala period 11th-12th century CE, Northeastern India. The other is a modern decorative wooden statue of Siddhalak?m?, probably from Nepal. Best wishes, Saran ________________________________ From: Fran?ois Patte Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 3:31 AM To: indology at list.indology.info Subject: [INDOLOGY] who are they? Bonjour, A friend of mine has two indian statues and want to know who are the represented persons. I have personnaly no ideas... Does someone can recognise them and give some clue? Thank you. http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0610.JPG http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0615.JPG -- Fran?ois Patte UFR de math?matiques et informatique Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 Universit? Paris Descartes 45, rue des Saints P?res F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte FSF https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From parlinito at hotmail.com Sun Feb 28 18:10:21 2021 From: parlinito at hotmail.com (Saran Suebsantiwongse) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 18:10:21 +0000 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Artur, It's Guanyin (female form of Avalokate?vara) carved on faux ivory or bovine bone, 20th century. Best wishes, Saran ________________________________ From: Artur Karp Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 1:01 PM To: Saran Suebsantiwongse Cc: Fran?ois Patte ; indology at list.indology.info Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? And that image - please? Its material? Best wishes, Artur Karp niedz., 28 lut 2021 o 18:12 Saran Suebsantiwongse napisa?(a): > > Bonjour, > > The stone stele is Vajrasattva, Pala period 11th-12th century CE, Northeastern India. The other is a modern decorative wooden statue of Siddhalak?m?, probably from Nepal. > > Best wishes, > Saran > > ________________________________ > From: Fran?ois Patte > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 3:31 AM > To: indology at list.indology.info > Subject: [INDOLOGY] who are they? > > Bonjour, > > A friend of mine has two indian statues and want to know who are the > represented persons. > > I have personnaly no ideas... > > Does someone can recognise them and give some clue? > > Thank you. > > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0610.JPG > > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0615.JPG > > -- > Fran?ois Patte > UFR de math?matiques et informatique > Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 > Universit? Paris Descartes > 45, rue des Saints P?res > F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 > T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte > FSF > https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf > > _______________________________________________ > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From karp at uw.edu.pl Sun Feb 28 18:20:46 2021 From: karp at uw.edu.pl (Artur Karp) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 21 19:20:46 +0100 Subject: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you! Dzi?kuj? serdecznie, droga Pani Saran --- Artur K. niedz., 28 lut 2021 o 19:10 Saran Suebsantiwongse napisa?(a): > > Dear Artur, > > It's Guanyin (female form of Avalokate?vara) carved on faux ivory or bovine bone, 20th century. > > Best wishes, > Saran > > ________________________________ > From: Artur Karp > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2021 1:01 PM > To: Saran Suebsantiwongse > Cc: Fran?ois Patte ; indology at list.indology.info > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Re: who are they? > > And that image - please? Its material? > > Best wishes, > > Artur Karp > > > niedz., 28 lut 2021 o 18:12 Saran Suebsantiwongse > napisa?(a): > > > > Bonjour, > > > > The stone stele is Vajrasattva, Pala period 11th-12th century CE, Northeastern India. The other is a modern decorative wooden statue of Siddhalak?m?, probably from Nepal. > > > > Best wishes, > > Saran > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Fran?ois Patte > > Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2021 3:31 AM > > To: indology at list.indology.info > > Subject: [INDOLOGY] who are they? > > > > Bonjour, > > > > A friend of mine has two indian statues and want to know who are the > > represented persons. > > > > I have personnaly no ideas... > > > > Does someone can recognise them and give some clue? > > > > Thank you. > > > > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0610.JPG > > > > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte/IMG_0615.JPG > > > > -- > > Fran?ois Patte > > UFR de math?matiques et informatique > > Laboratoire CNRS MAP5, UMR 8145 > > Universit? Paris Descartes > > 45, rue des Saints P?res > > F-75270 Paris Cedex 06 > > T?l. +33 (0)6 7892 5822 > > http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte > > FSF > > https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/presenting-shoetool-happy-holidays-from-the-fsf > > > > _______________________________________________ > > INDOLOGY mailing list -- indology at list.indology.info > > To unsubscribe send an email to indology-leave at list.indology.info > > indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee) > > http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)