[INDOLOGY] Manusmriti ... (Olivelle, J P)

Sat Oct 31 18:25:24 UTC 2020

Dear Tylor W., 

Thank you for your posting.

Thol. Thirumavalavan and other members of his party are my good friends. In fact, Thol. Thirumavalavan & the secretary of his party published one my books (albeit small in size). If I need any clarification about anything political, I can ask them directly. So, no worries. Thank you!.

I’d like to stop participating in this thread with this posting. 

Respectful Moderators of this List,

My apologies to the List moderators that this thread which started with a naive query has taken deviated routes. If you’d decide please remove the whole thread from the List. Thank you!

Regards,
V.S. Rajam

> On Oct 30, 2020, at 9:21 PM, Tyler Williams <tylerwwilliams at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some list members may be interested in knowing the immediate political context and raison d'être for the original query: the Bharatiya Janta Party in Tamil Nadu is currently attempting to turn comments on the Manusmriti by a Dalit activist into a wedge political issue <https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/thirumavalavan-tamil-nadu-bjp-manusmriti-controversy-6907121/> during an election year. This has been well-documented in the press.
> 
> With all due respect, Professor Rajam, your query was made explicitly in response to what you called "a severe extremist movement," i.e. the Viduthaliai Chirsuthaigal Katchi, a Dalit political group. You also quite clearly characterized such critiques of the Manusmriti as being by "people who don’t know Sanskrit and who hate Hinduism, brahmins." Critiques of the Manusmriti, especially by Dalits and feminists, do not constitute anti-Hindu or anti-Brahmin sentiment, though they may indeed constitute anti-Brahminical politics. If you have been misinformed in this regard, I and others on the list will be happy to point you to the relevant sources. I think you will find that those who want to symbolically burn the Manusmriti do not want to end its study--quite the opposite--but rather want something much more simple: to not be killed, raped, spat upon, or discriminated against by upper castes.
> 
> But I suppose one has to believe that caste existed and exists in Tamil Nadu before one can face the political consequences of it. 
> 
> Regards,
> Tyler W. 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 6:48 PM rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
> Dear List Members,
> 
> Thank you all who have responded to my query about Manusmriti. I really appreciate your help in understanding a passage in Manusmriti. Thank you all!
> 
> 
> Dear Tyler W,
> 
> I have not missed reading any of the responses related to my posting about Manusmriti. 
> 
> I am least interested in politicizing any text. My query was naive, just wanting to know if there was any reference in Manusmriti to describing women as “prostitutes."
> 
> [I am 78+ years old; my students and colleagues and friends on this list would know whether I am political.
> If only Professor Ludo Rocher is alive today … I would have asked him personally about this text. I miss him now more than ever.]
> 
> I gave some background information about how this text, Manusmriti, is understood positively or negatively, as a reason for my query. That’s it.
> 
> Please don’t take it beyond that. 
> 
> Thanks and Regards,
> V.S.Rajam
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 30, 2020, at 7:23 AM, Tyler Williams <tylerwwilliams at GMAIL.COM <mailto:tylerwwilliams at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Diego and Don,
>> Thank you for these helpful notes on an important passage. It comes up in discussions periodically so these notes will come in handy.
>> 
>> Dear V.S.Rajam,
>> It seems you may have missed the aforementioned colleagues’ statements that Manu’s position IS misogynist (meaning hatred or disdain for women), even if this is unexceptional given the historical context. If you are criticizing Dalit rights and women’s rights movements and their critiques of the Manusmriti in your post, let me take this opportunity to kindly remind you that this is an academic and scholarly forum and as such casteism, sexism, and communalism have no place here.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Tyler W
>> 
>> Sent from a mobile device; please excuse any typographical errors or formatting-related issues.
>> 
>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 12:55 PM, rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you very much!!! You can imagine how it trickles down to Tamilnadu, especially to people who don’t know Sanskrit and who hate Hinduism, brahmins, … and so on. People who hate brahmins use Manusmriti and similar texts as their tools in their politics. I wonder how many of them could read these original texts in Sanskrit. Depending upon the translations, everyone’s understanding and interpretation may vary. It is truly a sad scene. 
>>> 
>>> Thanks and Regards,
>>> V.S. Rajam
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 12:27 PM, Donald R Davis via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The context at the beginning of Chapter 9 is the law or duties between a man and wife. However, the misogyny of the text is unmistakeable (though hardly out of line with nearly all texts in antiquity) and 9.14-15 seem to (mis-)characterize females generally. However, I would add is that pauṃścalya here denotes lust or an innate sexual desire for men. While it may sometimes refer to a prostitute, the primary meaning of “prostitute” (at least in American English) is one who has sex in exchange for money. Granted, there are other meanings, but the money piece matters, I think, because the condemnation in Manu is about women’s temptations and attributed inclinations toward adultery, not prostitution in a strict sense. The passage is exhorting husbands to control their wives (or, more deviously, keep women hyper-occupied, 9.10-12) in order to prevent their adultery. It then justifies this control on the false grounds of women’s innate lechery, fickleness, and general inconstancy.
>>>>  
>>>> The question might be asked whether the English distinction of adultery and prostitution maps on precisely and consistently to Sanskrit terms, but it would seem important to keep the two distinct at the outset.
>>>>  
>>>> Best, Don
>>>>  
>>>> Don Davis
>>>> Dept. of Asian Studies
>>>> University of Texas at Austin
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of "indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>>> Reply-To: rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>>
>>>> Date: Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:54 PM
>>>> To: DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE <diegoloukota at ucla.edu <mailto:diegoloukota at ucla.edu>>
>>>> Cc: "indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>" <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Manusmriti ... (Olivelle, J P)
>>>>  
>>>> Thank you very much for the explanation! 
>>>>  
>>>> Could you please also verify if these specific ślokas refer to “all women” in general or only certain women? 
>>>>  
>>>> Thanks again,
>>>> V.S. Rajam
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>    Dear all,
>>>>> 
>>>>>    With regard to Manu and "women being prostitutes," and with respect and utter admiration for Prof. Olivelle, I would like to suggest that some ślokas of the passages already mentioned suggest something beyond a simple "need to guard [women] from even the slightest attachment to sensual pleasure":
>>>>> 
>>>>> naitā rūpaṃ parīkṣante nāsāṃ vayasi saṃsthitiḥ
>>>>> surūpaṃ vā virūpaṃ vā pumān ity eva bhuñjate 
>>>>> 
>>>>> pauṃścalyāc calacittāc ca naisnehyāc ca svabhāvataḥ 
>>>>> rakṣitā yatnato 'pīha bhartṛṣv etā vikurvate 
>>>>> 
>>>>>    In Prof. Olivelle's own translation ("they"=women, caps for emphasis mine):
>>>>> 
>>>>> "They pay no attention to beauty, they pay no heed to age; whether he is good looking or ugly, they make love to him with the single thought, "He's a man!" Because of the lechery, fickleness of mind, and hard-heartedness that are innate in them, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE CAREFULLY GUARDED IN THIS WORLD, they become hostile towards their husband"
>>>>> 
>>>>>    I would remark here that although "lechery" is of course entirely adequate, pauṃścalya>puṃś-calī is literally "one who runs after men," idiomatically and unequivocally a "prostitute," so perhaps something like "whorishness" or "sl at ttiness" may convey more directly the flavour of the Sanskrit word. 
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On a personal note, I feel the venerable Manu to be, without much exegesis or word-bending, pretty antagonistic to a modern feminist agenda, which I support.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    namaskaromi,
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Diego 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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